The Invincible Caster ( Invoke Duplicity+Etherealness/Forcecage/Other )

[Renduaz]

Has anybody ever thought about how incredibly powerful the Trickery Cleric's "Invoke Duplicity" ability is? If someone multiclassed as a 2nd level Trickery Cleric/18th level Bard/Wizard and used the Invoke Duplicity ability in addition to something like Forcecage, or potentially even just a Cleric using Etherealness without multiclass, you could become almost utterly invincible for 1 minute ( 10 rounds) or even 3 minutes as a full-fledged Cleric.

First of all, let us review the properties of the Trickery Cleric's "Invoke Duplicity" - Infinitely more useful than even the 7th-level spell "Project Image", it allows you to cast spells "as though you were in the illusion's space", but you must use your own senses. More importantly, unlike "Project Image" for example, nothing in the ability indicates that this illusion is able to take any damage whatsoever or be dispersed by it. Furthermore, since you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to a space you can see, and since it's an illusion, nothing is able to trap the illusion either. It's an immaterial illusion, after all. Nothing indicates that the illusion will not remain in an unsupported space as well like any other illusion, if the ground were to fall beneath it for example. Lastly, it's even arguable whether the illusion could be dispelled by "Dispel magic", which states you can choose a magical effect within range ( And the illusion is a magical effect ), but that what it actually does is - "Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a successful check, the spell ends". , yet "Invoke Duplicity" is not a spell, even though it's a magical effect channeled directly from the Cleric's deity. It doesn't have any spell level. You could pretend it's a 2nd level spell since it's a 2nd level ability if you want, but would that make the Cleric's "Improved Duplicity" a 17th level spell? I don't think Dispel Magic would even work on the illusion by RAW. The only thing which could reliably destroy the "Invoke Duplicity" illusion is the Antimagic Field which explicitly negates all magical effects as well as spells ( And I don't think "Channel Divinity" counts as being created by a deity )

Sadly, the drawback is that you have to forfeit you concentration for the duration of the ability ( Which also prevented me from trying long and hard to cheese it at lower levels ), although that barely manages to detract from the sheer power it offers in combination with other magical effect, possibly even being one of the most powerful combinations in the game at higher levels. Let's look at the Forcecage spell when cast on yourself, if you were to multiclass as Cleric 2/Wizard 18 for example. In order to avoid confusion, let's highlight a few of the aspects of the spell:

Forcecage Combination

-No concentration

-1 action to cast

-"An immobile, invisible, cube-shaped prison"

-"A prison in the shape of a box can be up to 10 feet on a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into or out from the area"

-"This spell can't be dispelled by dispel magic."

The first thee parameters enable us to use this immediately before or after invoking duplicity, since concentration is not necessary and it takes only a single action, and the cage is invisible which allows us to direct our illusion and use our own senses to cast spells "as though we were in it's space", and it's also immobile, so good luck to anyone attempting to make it fall down or move it from the battlefield. You might even want to levitate or fly up a little and cast it on yourself from a nice vantage point. The fourth restriction, quoted in full, does not prevent us from doing so. First of all, Invoke Duplicity isn't a spell, nor is our illusion "matter", but even if it were so, we would just cast it first and the Forcecage later. Secondly, Forcecage isn't an Antimagic zone, a trapped creature can still cast spells inside ( As evidence by teleporting out of the cage with a Charisma saving throw ), the just can't pass through the box's barrier. However, with Invoke Duplicity, "You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space", so that works regardless. And the fifth parameter, well, that's just the cherry on top of the cake.

So to summarize, albeit a bit expensive ( To be honest though, at that level you should be able to procure 1,500gp without trouble ), this combination is a good bargain for what is essentially almost total invincibility for 1 minute while being able to move around your illusion with a bonus action and cast any non-concentration spell through it. Unless your foe is a Beholder or has access to Antimagic Field, it's show time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4puUo4OYViE#t=247.747) ( Except with an invincible illusion hurling spells for 10 rounds instead of martial arts ). A Major Image of 6th level or higher which is permanent and does not require concentration combined with Illusory Reality, of something transparent like a crystal box around your Forcecage Box, can help protect your Forcecage from a Disintegrate spell.

Etherealness Combination

-No concentration

-1 action to cast

-"During this time, you can move in any direction."

-"You ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane, allowing you to move through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from."

-"You can see and hear the plane you originated from, but everything there looks gray, and you can't see anything more than 60 feet away."

-"While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane. Creatures that aren't on the Ethereal Plane can't perceive you and can't interact with you, unless a special ability or magic has given them the ability to do so."

Likewise with Forcecage, the first two properties enable combination with Invoke Duplicity, while the third and fourth offer the benefit of mobility. The fifth parameters satisfies the requirement to be able to see the target with your own senses, albeit only up to 60 feet if you don't move on your turn, which you probably would anyway ( Using bonus action to move the illusion ), while the sixth parameter is the restriction. As much as I try, I am unable to interpret "You can only affect creatures on that plane" ( Which also seems to be clarified in the latter sentence ) as "Your illusion on the Prime Material won't be able to affect creatures in it". As for doing so in the first place, "Invoke Duplicity" states that you can make the illusion appear in an "unoccupied space that you can see within 30 feet of you". Now, a matter of contention here, does seeing 60 feet into the Prime Material from the corresponding place on the Border Ethereal makes it a "space you can see within 30 feet of you?" If so, and the nature of Etherealness seems to suggest that it is so ( "Overlaps", Ghostly beings popping directly in and out, being able to see though ), then the ability works, since there's nothing preventing it's creation on another plane of existence as long as you can see the space within 30 feet of you ( And if we were to rule otherwise, what kind of "distance" would the Border Ethereal even be? Infinity? Zero? It's more of a dimension ). If so, then your illusion which you would create on the Prime Material instead of the ethereal ( Since you can see that space in the Prime Material ) would let you cast spells "as though you were in it's space", AKA "as though you were on the Prime Material", and "as though" you were not in the Ethereal when the spell is cast, thereby affecting creatures ( If one reads it as such ), not to mention spells which don't affect creatures.

So, possibly a bit more contested than Forcecage, but it seems like the RAW is more on the "working" side. Major drawbacks is enemies who can enter the ethereal or attack through it themselves and possibly being assailed by ethereal creatures that somehow instantly wandered around.

Minor Combinations

Finally, this ability could also work well from an hiding place like 3/4 cover or more which you can see or peek through on your turn, potentially even stealthily casting the spells with something like Subtle Spell if you're a sorcerer while the illusion delivers them. Fast non-concentration spells such as Minor Illusion or Programmed Illusion with the Illusion Wizard's "Illusory Reality" which lets you turn an object real for 1 minute also work to a lesser degree if you can create a hardy, transparent ( Diamond possibly ) barrier around you in combat, but obviously those can be damaged, moved and so on. Minor Conjuration can also work if you're small enough to hide inside 3 cubic feet object, and notable for being available to you at 4th level if multiclassing as Trickery Cleric/Conjuration Wizard.

Conclusion

I've also been attempting scour quite a few class abilities and spells for something that will let you see into an area while you're far from it ( "Own senses" ) for lower level usage, but haven't been able to find anything which doesn't break concentration or waste your action, so let me know if you do. I'm also pretty sure that this is the first thread to propose these Invoke Duplicity combos. I find nothing by typing "Invoke duplicity forcecage" or "Invoke duplicity etherealness" on Google, nor in Giantitp's search engine. If you're wondering about it.

[Unoriginal]

while the sixth parameter is the restriction. As much as I try, I am unable to interpret "You can only affect creatures on that plane" ( Which also seems to be clarified in the latter sentence ) as "Your illusion on the Prime Material won't be able to affect creatures in it".

I have to object to that. It is *not* your illusion casting the spell, it is you casting the spell "as though you were in the illusion's space", as you quoted yourself.

Ergo, you still cannot affect creatures on the plane you came from, because it's still you casting the spell, with the "while on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected byo ther creatures on that plane" parameter still in place.

Also, Etherealness precises that "you ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane", and your illusion, assuming it was on the Material Plane, is an effect (not spell, effect) that is not on the Ethereal Plane and so you have to ignore it/ cannot affect it either.

[Renduaz]

I have to object to that. It is *not* your illusion casting the spell, it is you casting the spell "as though you were in the illusion's space", as you quoted yourself.

Ergo, you still cannot affect creatures on the plane you came from, because it's still you casting the spell, with the "while on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected byo ther creatures on that plane" parameter still in place.

Also, Etherealness precises that "you ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane", and your illusion, assuming it was on the Material Plane, is an effect (not spell, effect) that is not on the Ethereal Plane and so you have to ignore it/ cannot affect it either.

As I've said, it's a contested reading. The full sentence is "While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane". While it is me casting the spell, I do so "as though I was in the illusion's space". But if the action of casting the spell in the first place is done "as though I were in the Illusion's space", then it would be as if I am in the Prime Material, not the Border Ethereal. It is me casting the spell, but the Ethereal restriction does not apply, because the very act itself is done as though I were in the illusion's space, which is not in the Ethereal, hence doesn't have to effect only creatures on the Ethereal. Naturally, "Etherealness" simply assumes that if you cast or do something, you do so in the Ethereal plane since you're Ethereal, but Invoke Duplicity specifically bypasses that since "You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's spell". And if I were in the illusion's spell, there'd be nothing stopping me, since that space is on the Prime Material.

As for "You ignore effects", that's a bit of a strained interpretation, highly dependent on what "Ignore" would be defined as in that context, which seems to suggest that you are unaffected by effects in the Prime Material, not that you have to ignore your illusion in the "Pretend it doesn't exist" sense of ignore. Your interpretation is faulty, since obviously I don't need to ignore effects taking place on the Prime Material while I'm looking at them with my sense of sight. Just like I could see and memorize an effect in the Prime Material through the veil, nothing suggests I couldn't also mentally direct my illusion in it. The correct reading of "ignore" here is that you are unaffected yourself by effects that would normally affect you if you were in that space, not that you can't affect things. ( Provided you can bypass the creature restriction )

Also, I take it that I have your silent approval on the Forcecage at least?

[Unoriginal]

As I've said, it's a contested reading. The full sentence is "While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane". While it is me casting the spell, I do so "as though I was in the illusion's space". But if the action of casting the spell in the first place is done "as though I were in the Illusion's space", then it would be as if I am in the Prime Material, not the Border Ethereal. It is me casting the spell, but the Ethereal restriction does not apply, because the very act itself is done as though I were in the illusion's space, which is not in the Ethereal, hence doesn't have to effect only creatures on the Ethereal. Naturally, "Etherealness" simply assumes that if you cast or do something, you do so in the Ethereal plane since you're Ethereal, but Invoke Duplicity specifically bypasses that since "You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's spell". And if I were in the illusion's spell, there'd be nothing stopping me, since that space is on the Prime Material.

This is ignoring that if you use Etherealness, you ignores the effects that are on the plane you come from. It includes beneficial effects, and so your Invoke Duplicity illusion on the Material Plane would have to be ignored too.

Though I would argue that while you can *see* in the other plane, it doesn't mention you can use one of your Channel Divitiny effects there. You couldn't use Radiance of the Dawn to dispel magical darkness in the other plane, for exemple. The illusion would be in the Ethereal Plane with you.


Also, I take it that I have your silent approval on the Forcecage at least?

Not quite. While I cannot deny that it seems to work by RAW, as far as I can tell, it seems to me like an oversight on the wording. I'm trying to find if there was any precision on that anywhere.

I mean, otherwise, Forcecage would not protect against any non-material effects that aren't strictly spells, including all of the Channel Divinity effects, monsters abilities like the Illithid's Mind Blast, and a dragon's or half-dragon's Fire Breath.

And a Fire Elemental could walk through it without problem.

[Renduaz]

This is ignoring that if you use Etherealness, you ignores the effects that are on the plane you come from. It includes beneficial effects, and so your Invoke Duplicity illusion on the Material Plane would have to be ignored too.

Though I would argue that while you can *see* in the other plane, it doesn't mention you can use one of your Channel Divitiny effects there. You couldn't use Radiance of the Dawn to dispel magical darkness in the other plane, for exemple. The illusion would be in the Ethereal Plane with you.

Once again I tell you, that depends on how you define "Ignore" in that context. It can't be "pretend something doesn't exist", otherwise you wouldn't be able to see or hear all the various effects occurring on the Prime Material. So obviously I won't have to "ignore" my illusion in that manner. So how exactly do I "ignore" effects? Obviously the effect of the light reflecting the matter in the Prime Material into my eyes is not ignored ( Even if gray-colored ), nor is the sound emitted from there and into my ears. If I hear everything which transpires on the space in the Prime Material that I overlap with, then I would very much affected by a shrieking scream, in ears and mind. So just which effects are "Ignored" and how exactly? The best interpretation seems to be, in accordance with what the spell does ( Your material form is teleported to an overlapping plane ), that anything which would affect that material form were you physically there does not, hence why you can pass through objects, and because your material form is incorporeal, you can't affect the Prime Material in such a manner either. But nothing says that you cannot affect it by other means, unless the spell explicitly restricts you from doing so.

And indeed, the spell authors did add the restrictions on how you can affect the Prime Material, which also supports that interpretation. However, that explicit restriction on affecting the Prime Material can be bypassed with Invoke Duplicity seemingly.

Radiance of the Dawn would take place in the Ethereal because it simply emanates 30 feet around you. Invoke Duplicity illusion on the other hand can be created in any space of your choosing, as long as you can see it within 30 feet of you. You can choose to put the illusion on overlapping Prime Material space instead of putting it in the Ethereal, but Radiance of the Dawn doesn't give you the choice.


Not quite. While I cannot deny that it seems to work by RAW, as far as I can tell, it seems to me like an oversight on the wording. I'm trying to find if there was any precision on that anywhere.

I mean, otherwise, Forcecage would not protect against any non-material effects that aren't strictly spells, including all of the Channel Divinity effects, monsters abilities like the Illithid's Mind Blast, and a dragon's or half-dragon's Fire Breath.

And a Fire Elemental could walk through it without problem.

Always so much negativity when it comes to posting in my threads, even when you can't justify why. It seems like a recurring theme by now, I'm really not sure why that is. As I've said, even if Invoke Duplicity were a spell, it would still work with Forcecage. But indeed I don't think it would protect against non-spell abilities which do not involve matter passing through the barrier. And no, Fire breath and Fire Elementals wouldn't do anything, Fire is the rapid oxidation of a material, even if that material is air. Although Mind Blast probably wouldn't work alongside other similar monster abilities since they are "Innate Spellcasting", and judging by the sentence here (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-spellcasting) - "This rule is true for player characters and monsters alike, which is why the innate spellcasters in the Monster Manual must cast an innate spell at its lowest possible level.", Innate Spellcasting abilities are indeed classified as spells, which Forcecage blocks regardless of level and whether they are innate or not.

Class abilities such as "Channel Divinity" on the other hand are not Innate Spellcasting. So any monster which had those, or had a magical ability not involving matter which is not "Innate Spellcasting" could penetrate the Forcecage. So I'd guess you need a Mind Blank and a Hero's Feast or equivalent spell in order to ward several psychic abilities that certain monsters can take as an action and gain true near invincibility, which would still work and be highly impressive.

[Unoriginal]

Always so much negativity when it comes to posting in my threads, even when you can't justify why.

People try and find holes in your ideas the same way that you do for the game maker's ideas.

ESPECIALLY if you're claiming you found a way to have invincibility or near. Of course people will try to disprove it.

Also a lot of people claim that X thing is more powerful than it really is, and I personally find that upsetting. I'm not saying that you do that in this thread, just that it's something that happens.

And I did justify why: I think it is weird that a spell like Forcecage would not protect against non-spell magical effects like that. It's a pretty huge weakness


Fire breath and Fire Elementals wouldn't do anything, Fire is the rapid oxidation of a material, even if that material is air.

And yet Fire Elementals can exist in places devoid of oxygen.


Although Mind Blast probably wouldn't work alongside other similar monster abilities since they are "Innate Spellcasting"

Sorry, I had forgotten that Mind Blast was Innate Spellcasting. It would indeed be treated like a spell by the Forcecage.


gain true near invincibility, which would still work and be highly impressive.

It should still be noted that anything that prevent you from seeing your illusion outside of the box, like the spell Fog Cloud, would defeat this combo

[Kryx]

I was going to say this has a striking similarity to the "core spell exploits" thread, but now I see it is the same author pushing for literal RAW over RAI.

It seems your approach to the game is "How can I explot something unintended" whereas most of us have left that thought process behind in 3.X and now try to play as intended.

[Renduaz]

People try and find holes in your ideas the same way that you do for the game maker's ideas.

ESPECIALLY if you're claiming you found a way to have invincibility or near. Of course people will try to disprove it.

Also a lot of people claim that X thing is more powerful than it really is, and I personally find that upsetting. I'm not saying that you do that in this thread, just that it's something that happens.

And I did justify why: I think it is weird that a spell like Forcecage would not protect against non-spell magical effects like that. It's a pretty huge weakness



And yet Fire Elementals can exist in places devoid of oxygen.



Sorry, I had forgotten that Mind Blast was Innate Spellcasting. It would indeed be treated like a spell by the Forcecage.



It should still be noted that anything that prevent you from seeing your illusion outside of the box, like the spell Fog Cloud, would defeat this combo

Well of course, that's all well and good. A problem only arises when an argument appears to be disingenuous, or contrarianism for it's own sake even when the person himself does not actually believe that what he's describing is a hole, or finds no holes but still, in your own words, wishes to dismiss something. The problem is twofold - one is that discussions should never be approached with a bias, and secondly if a position or attitude appears to be given more on a...personal grounds, than technical grounds.

I understand you position though, very well. Personally whenever I post something like this I dwell a great deal of time on it's veracity, and when technical mistakes are made, I hope to correct them. I will say that the conversation was fruitful since it did remind me a player will need to buff up with some anti-psychic shielding like Mind Blank and Hero's Feast in order to achieve near invincibility within the Forcecage. Although, even if Forcecage's barrier was categoized as "blocking any magical effects coming into or out of the area", I'm still under the impression there would be nothing this trick since you can cast spells inside the box ( I.E Teleportation attempt ), you'd just do so by creating the illusion duplicate first and then casting Forcecage on yourself, regardless.

As you can tell.....I'm pretty sure I did find a way to have near invincibility for 10 rounds, no matter the status of Etherealness ( I even said it's more contested myself, even though it still seems to me like there's nothing to explicitly forbid the process given what is known about both abilities ), so maybe it paid off.

As for Fire Elementals, regardless, if you read the Monster Manual, water can halt them which causes them to shrink and smoke in a rage, so I'm pretty sure they're made of matter, even if it's at the quark level. Furthermore, even Fire Form itself says that the Elemental "can move through a space as narrow as 1 inch wide", and although it can enter a creature's space ( Supposedly by engulfing it with flames ), nothing says the Fire Elemental can completely bypass matter. Which the Ghost's entry for example does say ( Incorporeal Movement ). Forcecage as a box is a Force-based barrier with absolutely no gaps which prevents any matter from passing. A Fire Elemental won't get through it. But creatures with Incorporeal Movement probably can though.

Anything which prevents me from seeing the illusion will not defeat this combo. First of all, while I have to use my own senses to cast spells through the illusion, I can still cast spells with a range of self or emanating from myself without seeing anything, since I don't need a line of sight to any target, and there are several such spells which can dispel sight obstructions. A spell of "True Seeing" cast on myself an hour prior will also render all attempts to obscure my vision this way completely useless. And if party members are available, they can deal with it too as I hold my turn.


I was going to say this has a striking similarity to the "core spell exploits" thread, but now I see it is the same author pushing for literal RAW over RAI.

It seems your approach to the game is "How can I explot something unintended" whereas most of us have left that thought process behind in 3.X and now try to play as intended.

Pushing? This is exploration, not pushing. And I'd like to imagine that ingenuity when it comes to spellcasting is intended. That's what Wizards are actually supposed to be studying in-character, after all. Their job is literally to exploit magic. That's what the Netherese Wizards, Arch-liches and so forth spend all their time thinking about.

[Christian]

I definitely wouldn't allow the Etherealness combination in a game I was DMing. Even under RAW, it seems to me that if you interpret the location of your illusion as being within 30 feet of you even though it's on another plane, due to the overlapping of the PM and ethereal planes, then you have to interpret the clause "cast the spell as if you were in the illusion's space" to mean as if you were in that space, still on the ethereal plane. That's still the 'same space', after all, even if it's on another plane, by that same interpretation. And regardless of which space you're in, you can't affect targets on the PM plane with your spells. That's clearly so far outside the RAI, in any case, that I can't see a reasonable argument to allow it.

[Christian]

Oh, and also, as a DM there's no way I'd let a magical effect castable at 2nd level be completely immune to Dispel Magic. I'd probably treat it as a spell of the highest level cleric spell the character could prepare for purposes of the success roll. That's obviously a ruling and not a rule, but a 5E DM has to make those all the time--that's how the game is designed.

[Renduaz]

I definitely wouldn't allow the Etherealness combination in a game I was DMing. Even under RAW, it seems to me that if you interpret the location of your illusion as being within 30 feet of you even though it's on another plane, due to the overlapping of the PM and ethereal planes, then you have to interpret the clause "cast the spell as if you were in the illusion's space" to mean as if you were in that space, still on the ethereal plane. That's still the 'same space', after all, even if it's on another plane, by that same interpretation. And regardless of which space you're in, you can't affect targets on the PM plane with your spells. That's clearly so far outside the RAI, in any case, that I can't see a reasonable argument to allow it.

I don't really understand your reasoning, I'm not sure you've understood mine. I create my illusion in a space that I can see within 30 feet of me, I choose to create it in the Prime Material though instead of the Ethereal, which can be thought of as two "dimensions" occupying the same space. And I then do interpret that clause to mean "As if I were in that space", but it won't still be on the Ethereal. My form is on the Ethereal, my illusion in the Prime Material, and we are up to 120 feet away from each or at the same coordinates in that space indeed. Any spell which I cast counts as though it originated in the Prime Material since it is cast as though I were in the illusion's space. We are not exactly on the 'same space', they overlap with each other. I can occupy the space of a creature on the Prime Material while in Ethereal Form and we'll overlap. There is no distance between me and him.

Let's explain more simply, since it's really hard to conceptualize magical planar descriptions like this. Take a paper, put it in the table. Take another paper, pretend it was exactly the same size without even a nanometer's difference ( Hard to replicate in real life ), then place it on top of the first paper, and likewise pretend you overlapped it to the utmost infinite precision. Now, how far are they each from each other? Only in height, "the 3rd dimension". Now imagine the Border Ethereal as some kind of 4D/5D dimension/plane which doesn't make much sense to us as much as a two-dimensional creature won't be able to understand height, and the distance of me inside the Border Ethereal, creating my illusion 30 feet away into the Prime Material, is basically the same as the 1 milimeter distance in height between the two overlapping papers. It's the 'same space' but extending into another dimension, and while in the paper example, I myself will be a two-dimensional figure on the upper page, unable to affect all the two-dimensional figures on the lower page, while the 60 feet gray "window" of "etherealness" will be a transparent spot on the paper allowing me to somehow look below, yet not pass or interact, but the page below is still just 1 milimeter away, no different than distance in the horizontal space of my upper paper. And my illusion is a figure created on that page below so that it can affect the other figures, because I can't. Do you understand now? The final piece is just to imagine that the upper paper can turn incorporeal and overlap with the lower paper ( Which remains material ), giving the figures above the ability to horizontally pass through the two-dimensional objects and figures on the lower page, which is how "Incorporeal Movement" works, but that doesn't really matter for our purposes. Being 30 feet away from my Illusion will be akin to being 1 milimeter away in height between the pages.

And yes I can affect targets on the Prime Material with my spells. Because Invoke Duplicity states that you can cast spells "As though you were in the Illusion's space", and if I were in the Illusion's space, I would be on the lower page, the Prime Material, and not the upper page, the Border Ethereal, and therefore myself and those spells would be able to affect creatures on that plane, as if Etherealness has never been cast on my form at all.


Oh, and also, as a DM there's no way I'd let a magical effect castable at 2nd level be completely immune to Dispel Magic. I'd probably treat it as a spell of the highest level cleric spell the character could prepare for purposes of the success roll. That's obviously a ruling and not a rule, but a 5E DM has to make those all the time--that's how the game is designed.

By the time you can cast Forcecage and Etherealness, it would hardly matter. There are not that many creatures with Dispel Magic, and anyone who uses the combination will probably prepare Counterspell at minimum as a 3rd-level barrage to thwart that. Unless you cheesed the campaign to artificially feature a never-ending stream of encounters with monsters that all have Dispel Magic and are spellcasters, given the standard number of times that the few monsters that do have Dispel Magic can do it, and accounting for Counterspell, we're probably still looking at the very least at something like 70% usability for the combination throughout the campaign.

[thereaper]

The fact that you can see the Prime Material doesn't mean you can cast into it, precisely because they are occupying the same space. "A space you can see" just means the space that is shared by both the ethereal and prime material. I don't see anything in the feature saying it extends from one into the other.

[Renduaz]

The fact that you can see the Prime Material doesn't mean you can cast into it, precisely because they are occupying the same space. "A space you can see" just means the space that is shared by both the ethereal and prime material. I don't see anything in the feature saying it extends from one into the other.

It's not exactly the "same space" in the way you envision it. The word "space" is inadequate to describe the dimensional reality here. Read my reply above which explains it. Two perfectly stacked papers are "in the same space" of our 3-dimensional ( That we know of ) universe, But a two-dimensional figure on the upper page would not be in the same two-dimensional space as a similar figure directly below it, they would be separated by 1 milimeter of height, which existence they wouldn't normally know about nor be able to traverse or impact. That 1 milimeter of height is equivalent to something you can see up 30 feet ahead but in the Prime Material through the extradimensional "window" provided by Etherealness. The upper paper is the Border Ethereal, the lower paper is the Prime Material, you're a two-dimensional figure in the upper paper, your illusion is a two-dimensional figure in the lower paper, and 1 milimeter of height separates your "space", except that in the game, it would be 30 feet of dimension "X" instead of height. We can't really understand what the planar "X" would be just like two-dimensional figures don't understand "Height", but we know it overlaps just like the two pages overlap two-dimensionally.

It doesn't extend from one into the other. I can choose to put it at any point I can see within 30 feet, no restriction on planes of existence. I choose to put it on the lower page instead of the upper page.

[thereaper]

If that were the case, then ghosts would have to take into account distances and such when attacking creatures that were otherwise adjacent to them (what is the distance between these two "spaces"? The lack of any stated implies that this interpretation doesn't hold). And even if that weren't so, none of what you just said is in the rules, which means you're relying on the DM interpreting the rules specifically to allow you to do something that is clearly not intended. You would be in "Iron Heart Surge the sun" territory.

If, on the other hand, they're the same space, then there's nothing specifying that you can put the illusion in another plane, regardless of whether or not you can see it. You see the space, and you put it there, and there's nothing saying you can make the illusion in a different plane from you. If you want to argue rules minutiae (which you pretty much have to), this is the interpretation you're stuck with.

Either way, you've got problems.

And even if you could make it work, it would only last a few minutes.

[Renduaz]

If that were the case, then ghosts would have to take into account distances and such when attacking creatures that were otherwise adjacent to them (what is the distance between these two "spaces"? The lack of any stated implies that your interpretation doesn't hold). And even if that weren't so, none of what you just said is in the rules, which means you're relying on the DM interpreting the rules specifically to allow you to do something that is clearly not intended. You would be in "Iron Heart Surge the sun" territory.

As I've wrote in the initial post, the comparison fails to capture the full extent because the Ethereal dimension can't be fully visualized like "Height". The missing link is for you to imagine that the upper paper can become incorporeal and overlap directly with the lower paper. But they still don't exactly occupy the same space, they just occupy the same 3-dimensional space, much like the two pages were occupying the same "two-dimensional" space but the 3rd dimension of "Height" separated between them. In that case though, there is no space difference 3-dimensionally between the incorporeal upper paper and still material lower paper, now fully overlapping in 3 dimensions with each other, but they are still separated by some kind of 4-dimensional space, the "Border Ethereal", between the Ethereal and Prime Material.

In case you aren't aware, when Ghosts attack, that's after they entered into the Prime Material. They specifically have the "Etherealness" ability which states that once they enter into the Ethereal or Border Ethereal, it can't affect or be affected by anything on the other plane ( The Prime Material ), although it's visible while in the Border Ethereal due to some innate property ( While humans who cast Etherealness are invisible, but that's irrelevant ).

What I said is in the rules though. There is no "alternative" interpretation, except to someone who gets lost in English linguistics and can't conceive of the physics accordingly. You can't be on the exact same space as something else without affecting it, that's a logical paradox. If you were in the exact same space then your body would merge at some sub-quark, god-knows-what impossibility level with whichever object or creature whose space you simultaneously occupy, not "pass" through it. That would only make sense if the "Etherealness" altered your body while still on the Prime Material to be some kind of immaterial, substanceless magic consciousness. Except we know it doesn't since it's nowhere in the description. All it lets you do is "step into the border regions of the Ethereal Plane". Therefore, when you seemingly, and I underline, seemingly "occupy the same space" as something else, that's because you only see 3 dimensions. There is still a 4th dimensional space, that of the Border Ethereal, separating you from the overlapping space in the Prime Material.


If, on the other hand, they're the same space, then there's nothing specifying that you can put the illusion in another plane, regardless of whether or not you can see it. You see the space, and you put it there, and there's nothing saying you can make the illusion in a different plane from you. If you want to argue rules minutiae (which you pretty much have to), this is the interpretation you're stuck with.

Either way, you've got problems.

And even if you could make it work, it would only last a few minutes.

They aren't really, they're just on the same three-dimensional space. As for "Nothing saying you can make the illusion in a different plane from you", yeah, there's nothing in the rules saying I can crouch or lie down or pick my nose if I have one either. Nothing in the Fireball spells says that you can cast it while standing in snow. I don't think you understand how D&D rules work exactly. If an ability tells me that I can make an illusion appear in any space I see within 30 feet, with no other caveats, and putting that illusion in another plane matches with that description, that means you can do it. There are in fact spells and abilities which state restrictions about "Being on the same plane of existence", and this isn't one of them.

And you're right, it would only last a minute or a few, including with Forcecage, but 10 rounds of near invincibility sound promising to me.

[Christian]

I don't really understand your reasoning, I'm not sure you've understood mine.

I totally understood your reasoning. I'm sorry you don't understand mine, but I don't see how I can explain it any more clearly.

I was just letting you know how I'd rule in a game I was refereeing.

[Renduaz]

I totally understood your reasoning. I'm sorry you don't understand mine, but I don't see how I can explain it any more clearly.

I was just letting you know how I'd rule in a game I was refereeing.

Well, as I've said, it can't actually be the "same space" or else there would be no distinction whatsoever between being on the Prime Material and Border Ethereal, whether it be passing through objects and so forth. The illusion is 30 feet from me, in 3-dimensional space, while I'm in a 4th dimensional space, overlapping with the 3-dimensional Prime Material. The spell would therefore be cast as if I were not separated by the 4th dimensional space of the Border Ethereal ( From which you can't affect anything on the 3-dimensional space of the Prime Material ), but from within the 3-dimensional space in the Prime Material, so it would take effect. I did understand your second post though.

[thereaper]

As I've wrote in the initial post, the comparison fails to capture the full extent because the Ethereal dimension can't be fully visualized like "Height". The missing link is for you to imagine that the upper paper can become incorporeal and overlap directly with the lower paper. But they still don't exactly occupy the same space, they just occupy the same 3-dimensional space, much like the two pages were occupying the same "two-dimensional" space but the 3rd dimension of "Height" separated between them. In that case though, there is no space difference 3-dimensionally between the incorporeal upper paper and still material lower paper, now fully overlapping in 3 dimensions with each other, but they are still separated by some kind of 4-dimensional space, the "Border Ethereal", between the Ethereal and Prime Material.

In case you aren't aware, when Ghosts attack, that's after they entered into the Prime Material. They specifically have the "Etherealness" ability which states that once they enter into the Ethereal or Border Ethereal, it can't affect or be affected by anything on the other plane ( The Prime Material ), although it's visible while in the Border Ethereal due to some innate property ( While humans who cast Etherealness are invisible, but that's irrelevant ).

What I said is in the rules though. There is no "alternative" interpretation, except to someone who gets lost in English linguistics and can't conceive of the physics accordingly. You can't be on the exact same space as something else without affecting it, that's a logical paradox. If you were in the exact same space then your body would merge at some sub-quark, god-knows-what impossibility level with whichever object or creature whose space you simultaneously occupy, not "pass" through it. That would only make sense if the "Etherealness" altered your body while still on the Prime Material to be some kind of immaterial, substanceless magic consciousness. Except we know it doesn't since it's nowhere in the description. All it lets you do is "step into the border regions of the Ethereal Plane". Therefore, when you seemingly, and I underline, seemingly "occupy the same space" as something else, that's because you only see 3 dimensions. There is still a 4th dimensional space, that of the Border Ethereal, separating you from the overlapping space in the Prime Material.



They aren't really, they're just on the same three-dimensional space. As for "Nothing saying you can make the illusion in a different plane from you", yeah, there's nothing in the rules saying I can crouch or lie down or pick my nose if I have one either. Nothing in the Fireball spells says that you can cast it while standing in snow. I don't think you understand how D&D rules work exactly. If an ability tells me that I can make an illusion appear in any space I see within 30 feet, with no other caveats, and putting that illusion in another plane matches with that description, that means you can do it. There are in fact spells and abilities which state restrictions about "Being on the same plane of existence", and this isn't one of them.

And you're right, it would only last a minute or a few, including with Forcecage, but 10 rounds of near invincibility sound promising to me.

They either are the same space in terms of game mechanics, or they aren't. You can't claim that they are in this context, but not in that one. But no matter which you claim, it still has problems, as I pointed out. If it's not the same space mechanically, then that would mean that effects which explicitly work across them might not because there's an undetermined (technically infinite) amount of distance they technically have to cross (so you might not even be able to see that space after all, by RAW, since its technically an infinite distance away). If it is the same space mechanically, then you don't automatically have the ability to put the illusion in the material.

Also, if you take the interpretation that you can do anything the rules don't say you can't, then your trick is unnecessary, since I don't think the rules say you can't keep adventuring while dead. At the very least, there's nothing in there about your soul not being able to take a portal back and continue from where you left off.

[Mellack]

Invoke Duplicity requires that the illusion remain within 120' of the caster. If you are on another plane, then you are not within 120'. You are infinitly far away. The power will not work. Otherwise anything performed in the material world would also effect things in the etheral plane and they do not.

[Renduaz]

They either are the same space in terms of game mechanics, or they aren't. You can't claim that they are in this context, but not in that one. But no matter which you claim, it still has problems, as I pointed out. If it's not the same space mechanically, then that would mean that effects which explicitly work across them might not because there's an undetermined (technically infinite) amount of distance they technically have to cross (so you might not even be able to see that space after all, by RAW, since its technically an infinite distance away). If it is the same space mechanically, then you don't automatically have the ability to put the illusion in the material.

Also, if you take the interpretation that you can do anything the rules don't say you can't, then your trick is unnecessary, since I don't think the rules say you can't keep adventuring while dead. At the very least, there's nothing in there about your soul not being able to take a portal back and continue from where you left off.

Well, we can't speak in terms of "game mechanics" since game mechanics don't really discuss 4th dimensional positioning except in certain unique situations which it gives a bit information on, but we do know for sure they aren't in the same space by definition, since that would be a paradox, and there would be absolutely no difference with Etherealness. We do know that the Border Ethereal, literally why it's called "Border" unlike the Deep Ethereal, is because it overlaps with the Prime Material's 3-dimensional space at least, as a 4th dimension. Hence why you can pass through objects and creatures without any change to your body or anything else, just by stepping into that plane. You occupy their space 3-dimensionally ( What human senses can perceive ), but not 4-dimensionally. Just like the stacked papers and the height between them.

Now, as for the second part, that's where the measurement unit "feet" and the "overlapping" nature of the 4th-dimensional Border Ethereal steps in. Feet is a 3-dimensional measurement unit, and the Border Ethereal overlaps with the 3-dimensional space of the Prime Material, hence why you can still move around as if you were still 3-dimensionally in the Prime Material, through objects and creatures and such, because you're in the 4th dimensional space of the Border Ethereal. When I create my illusion outside the Border Ethereal's ( 4th-dimensional space ) and in the Prime Material, I would still be 30 feet away from it, 3-dimensionally, which is the only thing I can be, since feet is a 3-dimensional measurement unit.

Let's go back to the papers analogy. To a two-dimensional creature who could only use two-dimensional measurement units, how much distance is there between the stacked, perfectly aligned paper sheets? Nothing. Height doesn't exist in it's measuring. Lift up the upper page 1 feet from the lower page while somehow still retaining perfect alignment, and by the two-dimensional creature's measuring system, there's still no distance between them. His measurement unit, we'll call it "X", only counts horizontal distance. Move the upper or lower paper 5 feet away horizontally from each other, and only then is there "5 units of X distance" between them. Now if that creature had an ability that says "You can only activate this within 30 X of you", and he somehow learned of the lower page and wanted to activate it on there, and you elevated the upper page 500 feet above the lower page, would the ability still work? Yes, since it's still either 0 ( If perfectly aligned horizontally ) or 5 units of "X" away from that 2-dimensional creature. That both pages are 500 feet from each other on the "Y" axis doesn't matter, because the requirement is "X" distance.

Now to complete the picture in your mind, imagine once again the perfectly aligned stacked papers, and the upper paper suddenly entering some 4th dimensional space while you can still view it as some kind of holographic thing, and it descends down 1 milimeter to perfectly align with the lower paper, now both horizontally and vertically, in 3D space. How many feet away is it from the lower paper currently? Zero. Now that upper paper represents the entire Border Ethereal plane overlapping 3-dimensionally with the entire Prime Material of the lower paper, with, as you say, an undetermined, technically infinite distance between them, except that distance is some kind of 4th-dimensional "Z" axis, not feet. There are 0 feet between the upper paper in the Ethereal and the lower paper in the Prime Material, both occupying the same 3-dimensional space, but not the same 4th dimensional space.

And yes, you can in fact do anything the rules don't say you can't, including your soul taking a portal back. That's up to the DM though, most DM's choose to incorporate our own universe's Laws of Physics in their campaigns, such as that if you drop an apple, it falls. ( At least on the Prime Material, in some planes it can be completely bizarre ), or that death results in your soul departing your body and then you can only keep on adventuring as undead or with resurrection spells, doesn't have to be that way on the Prime Material though. In fact, in the Dungeon Master's Guide variant rules, that's precisely what happens in the plane of Ysgard. Anything which dies in battle is just restored to life in the next dawn.

But this isn't even such a case, it's a case of "You can do anything the rules say you can". I can create the illusion in a space I can see within 30 feet, there are no planar restrictions as long as the former requirement is met ( There are spells which do have planar restrictions ), therefore there's no reason I can't do it, according to what the rules tell me that I can do.


Invoke Duplicity requires that the illusion remain within 120' of the caster. If you are on another plane, then you are not within 120'. You are infinitly far away. The power will not work. Otherwise anything performed in the material world would also effect things in the etheral plane and they do not.

Read above.

[Unoriginal]

The spells that DO cross the plane barrier have it noted in their descriptions.

Like Wall of Force.

[Renduaz]

The spells that DO cross the plane barrier have it noted in their descriptions.

Like Wall of Force.

You're not reading, again. Wall of Force doesn't "cross" the plane barrier in the way you're referring to my illusion, it doesn't move out of one plane and into another, what the description actually says and what it's there to indicate is that Wall of Force extends into the Ethereal plane ( I.E taking up 4th dimensional space as well ). It exists on both planes at once, occupying space in the Prime Material as well as overlapping space in the Border Ethereal ( Also supporting my previous explanations even further ). My illusion doesn't exist in both planes at once ( I.E extending from one into another ), it's created strictly in the Prime Material's space from Border Ethereal space, which overlap 3-dimensionally.

[Corran]

I think it's legit (for the most part; explain below).
By strict RAW I dont think you can move the illusion (I tend to agree with the people who said that while on the ethereal plane, you are not within 120 feet of the duplicate), but meh, I would probably allow that (rule of fun and all).

This is an interesting combo. As you say, it loses a lot of steam since you have to commit your concentration, but I am very fond of such ''tricky'' tactics to like it less for taking up concentration.

ps: Heh, did we just find out the reason as to why the designers chose to have the trickery CD take up concentration? :smallannoyed:

[Renduaz]

I think it's legit (for the most part; explain below).
By strict RAW I dont think you can move the illusion (I tend to agree with the people who said that while on the ethereal plane, you are not within 120 feet of the duplicate), but meh, I would probably allow that (rule of fun and all).

This is an interesting combo. As you say, it loses a lot of steam since you have to commit your concentration, but I am very fond of such ''tricky'' tactics to like it less for taking up concentration.

ps: Heh, did we just find out the reason as to why the designers chose to have the trickery CD take up concentration? :smallannoyed:

As I've said in the various posts, I think it's actually a fact that their interpretation is impossible since "feet" is a 3-dimensional unit, and the Border Ethereal and Prime Material overlap in that regard at least per spell description. But even the detractors of Etherealness are unable to find any arguments against the Forcecage apparently, improved upon with some kind of Mind Blank, anti-fear buff ( Hero's Feast for instance ) and True Seeing, which all last for an hour or more, and you can withstand almost any encounter invincibly for 1 minute, ironically it seems Incorporeal Movement from beings like Ghosts is the only thing which would penetrate it ( As well as the Border Ethereal while you're in it ), while most monstrous teleportation abilities into the Forcecage box are also blocked since it's occupied space when you create it to fit your size space, and spells are blocked from being cast into the area.

There are still plenty of combat spells without concentration though. Probably one of the most awesome parties I can think of is 3 Trickery Clerics and a Wizard, as soon as they enter combat armed with the appropriate buffs, the Wizard creates the Forcecage box in the size of 10 feet on a side while they're hunched together in 4 squares, then potentially also springing up a 10 feet sphere of Wall of Force ( Spells can be cast from inside the Forcecage ) and maintains concentration on it so it could even block ethereal travel, then all of the Clerics, whether lower-level ( With Invoke Duplicity and 1 channel divinity between rests, for 1 minute ) or at higher levels ( With Improved Duplicity, creating 4 illusions for each, and up to 3 minutes with 3 uses of Channel Divinity ), basically go all Agent Smith on the entire encounter. At this point virtually every enemy within range of 120 feet Truesight, and more in regular sight/Darkvision ( Depending on the Cleric spell's range which the illusion casts from 120 feet away from the box ) either flees ( Which the Clerics and Wizard will attempt to impede with various holding and area o effect spells ) or gets completely destroyed within 30 rounds or so. Imagine the enemy expression as within a single a round, they've been almost completely blocked from attacking the party, while either 3 or 12 invincible illusions show up and start flinging spells at them ( Most likely 3 spells per round in total, but I actually never quite understood what happens if for example you "cast a spell as though you were in the illusion's space", and you cast an AoE spell, and there are 4 illusions around. ) Interesting.

[Corran]

Ok, I think the description of true seeing supports your opinion well enough.
It referss to the exact opposite ofc (ie from material to ethereal), but I cant see why that would fail to hold (ie overlap regarding measuring distance) when examining distance from ethereal to material.
(didnt check the other spells, true seeing does it for me though)

[Renduaz]

Ok, I think the description of true seeing supports your opinion well enough.
It referss to the exact opposite ofc (ie from material to ethereal), but I cant see why that would fail to hold (ie overlap regarding measuring distance) when examining distance from ethereal to material.
(didnt check the other spells, true seeing does it for me though)

Oh, that's also true. It lets you see "Into the Ethereal plane to a range of 120 feet", totally confirming the fact that 3-dimensional space overlaps with the Border Ethereal, and that something which is 30 or 50 feet away but in the 4th dimensional space of the Border Ethereal is indeed still 30 or 50 feet away. I'm pretty sure most of the opponents here have a grudge or are reluctant to admit someone else's successful discovery judging by how vehemently they wish for it not to work, even when all RAW and logic confirms it does.

[Unoriginal]

Re-reading the MM, it turns out that Forcecage doesn't protect from Demon Summoning, Devil Summoning, Mephit Summoning and Yugoloth Summoning abilities either.

So watch out when fighting Fiends or cultists (particularly Drow ones).


Oh, that's also true. It lets you see "Into the Ethereal plane to a range of 120 feet", totally confirming the fact that 3-dimensional space overlaps with the Border Ethereal, and that something which is 30 or 50 feet away but in the 4th dimensional space of the Border Ethereal is indeed still 30 or 50 feet away. I'm pretty sure most of the opponents here have a grudge or are reluctant to admit someone else's successful discovery judging by how vehemently they wish for it not to work, even when all RAW and logic confirms it does.

"let you see the other plane" isn't the same as "let you cast in the other plane".

You wouldn't argue that True Seeing let you cast Fire Bolt at someone who is in the Ethereal Plane, yes? Even if that person is standing at 10ft from the caster.

[Corran]

Well, it;s the internet, so that's bound to happen sometimes. Try not to take it personally (heh, offering advice I cannot always live up to).

[Renduaz]

Re-reading the MM, it turns out that Forcecage doesn't protect from Demon Summoning, Devil Summoning, Mephit Summoning and Yugoloth Summoning abilities either.

So watch out when fighting Fiends or cultists (particularly Drow ones).

It does though. "The summoned creatures appears in an unoccupied space", so yeah, no.


"let you see the other plane" isn't the same as "let you cast in the other plane".

You wouldn't argue that True Seeing let you cast Fire Bolt at someone who is in the Ethereal Plane, yes? Even if that person is standing at 10ft from the caster.

Sigh. Most of the argument revolved around whether or not I would still be within 30 feet of something I can see in the Prime Material while I myself am in the Border Ethereal or not. The fact that I will be able to use the Channel ability is already granted, since I can make my illusion appear in any space I can see within 30 feet of me. There is no restriction whatsoever on doing so between planes, and the RAW fully lets you do it. To say otherwise would be the same as claiming you can't cast Fireball while standing in snow. It would be a bizarre homebrew ruling of your own making which has no precedent.

[Unoriginal]

It does though. "The summoned creatures appears in an unoccupied space", so yeah, no.

A 10x10x10ft Forcecage with one humanoid inside has to contain an empty space. I guess you could make it a 5x5x5 cage, but it's rather cramped for most humanoids.




Sigh. Most of the argument revolved around whether or not I would still be within 30 feet of something I can see in the Prime Material while I myself am in the Border Ethereal or not. The fact that I will be able to use the Channel ability is already granted, since I can make my illusion appear in any space I can see within 30 feet of me. There is no restriction whatsoever on doing so between planes, and the RAW fully lets you do it. To say otherwise would be the same as claiming you can't cast Fireball while standing in snow. It would be a bizarre homebrew ruling of your own making which has no precedent.

So you maintain that you can cast from the Ethereal Plane to the Material one as long as you can see it, and the reverse?

According to you, can you cast Evard's Black Tentacles while under the effect of Etherealness? After all, the tentacles "fill a 20 foot square on ground that you can see within range".

Similarly, can you cast Fabricate on raw materials that are in the Material Plane, while under the effects of Etherealness? After all, you just need to see the raw materials and have them within range.

And what about Heat Metal? Also only require you to see the metal item and it to be within range.

And Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound? Only require you to see an unoccupied space within range.

[Renduaz]

A 10x10x10ft Forcecage with one humanoid inside has to contain an empty space. I guess you could make it a 5x5x5 cage, but it's rather cramped for most humanoids.

The Forcecage can be any size I want to up to 10 feet on a side.


So you maintain that you can cast from the Ethereal Plane to the Material one as long as you can see it, and the reverse?

According to you, can you cast Evard's Black Tentacles while under the effect of Etherealness? After all, the tentacles "fill a 20 foot square on ground that you can see within range".

Similarly, can you cast Fabricate on raw materials that are in the Material Plane, while under the effects of Etherealness? After all, you just need to see the raw materials and have them within range.

Possibly, actually. "You step into the border regions of the Ethereal Plane, in the area where it overlaps with your current plane." The only restrictions are "While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane.", so presumably Evard's wouldn't work since, "When a creature enters the affected area", it wouldn't be affected, since you're maintaining the effect from the Border Ethereal ( And you don't have a clause saying that the spell has been cast as through you were in Prime Material space as opposed to the Border Ethereal ). The second restriction is "You ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane, allowing you to move through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from." - First of all meaning you ( AKA your form in the Border Ethereal ) ignores all objects ( Also, implicitly existent objects ) that aren't on the Ethereal, which has nothing to do with you creating objects on another plane, with "Ignore", as we've discussed before, not meaning "Pretending something doesn't exist", nor is sound or imagery from that area in the Prime Material ignored as effects, but more like ignored by your form.

Nothing that suggests you couldn't affect a space or create an object ( Your form would just ignore it, as you pass through it for instance, which the spell clarifies ) in the Prime Material, through means which don't involve your corporeal form ( Such as a spell ), if you can do it. It's actually the reverse of Wall of Force, wherein you create an object while on the Prime Material, which appears in both planes, and affects both of them physically.

So yes, I'd say there is nothing in RAW stopping someone from using Fabricate while in the overlapping space of the Border Ethereal to make an object appear in the Prime Material. Heat Metal, only if it doesn't affect a creature. Likewise with the Hound. However, the Hound could affect creatures on the Prime Material itself after you summon it, since the effect was already unleashed, no longer dependent on you. As clarified in the "Can a spellcaster dismiss a spell after casting it?" section here (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-spellcasting), so you could create the hound in the Prime Material, and that hound will be able to affect creatures on the Prime Material.

[Coretex]

I like the ideas, and as far as I am reading they work.

Honestly, invoke duplicity is ridiculously powerful if played out how it would actually resolve if real people were in these situations.
It is after all a PERFECT illusion.

Person walks up to you and casts a touch spell that hurts.
You hit them only for your weapon to pass straight through them.
The person laughs at you and casts another spell that hurts.

At this point only someone familiar with that exact ability "invoke Duplicity" would suspect the truth. Someone unfamiliar with illusions might not realize
that it couldn't be one (because you just swiped right through it proving it's intangibility).

The far quicker "realization" is that somehow your enemy has become intangible and is attacking you. Leaving you with only the option to run away (maybe hoping to wait it out).

Forcecage and Etherealness just serve to "fool proof" the idea. Quite literally, in that the only people looking for a real version of you are going to be those dumb thugs who don't know that illusions go translucent once you have interacted with them or noticed their fakeness. Perhaps the odd theological spellcasting expert too, but how many of those do you run into.

All in all: Great idea, with some decent limitations (sight, non concentration casting only, 30 ft of movement, 1 minute duration). Sounds exactly fun and great to play with and around if people would stop trying to take away player options because of their limited imaginations.


One caveat: The etherealness trick is an edge reading that would come to a DM interpretation as much as ours (like anything). I would say that you cannot cast Invoke Duplicity from the Ethereal Plane but you can move it around inside the world FROM the Ethereal Plane (you can see it after all). Whether you can cast from it's location is a tricky reading but again i'd allow it because it would be fun, short lived, and not-too-strong by a long way.

[Renduaz]

I like the ideas, and as far as I am reading they work.

Honestly, invoke duplicity is ridiculously powerful if played out how it would actually resolve if real people were in these situations.
It is after all a PERFECT illusion.

Person walks up to you and casts a touch spell that hurts.
You hit them only for your weapon to pass straight through them.
The person laughs at you and casts another spell that hurts.

At this point only someone familiar with that exact ability "invoke Duplicity" would suspect the truth. Someone unfamiliar with illusions might not realize
that it couldn't be one (because you just swiped right through it proving it's intangibility).

The far quicker "realization" is that somehow your enemy has become intangible and is attacking you. Leaving you with only the option to run away (maybe hoping to wait it out).

Forcecage and Etherealness just serve to "fool proof" the idea. Quite literally, in that the only people looking for a real version of you are going to be those dumb thugs who don't know that illusions go translucent once you have interacted with them or noticed their fakeness. Perhaps the odd theological spellcasting expert too, but how many of those do you run into.

All in all: Great idea, with some decent limitations (sight, non concentration casting only, 30 ft of movement, 1 minute duration). Sounds exactly fun and great to play with and around if people would stop trying to take away player options because of their limited imaginations.


One caveat: The etherealness trick is an edge reading that would come to a DM interpretation as much as ours (like anything). I would say that you cannot cast Invoke Duplicity from the Ethereal Plane but you can move it around inside the world FROM the Ethereal Plane (you can see it after all). Whether you can cast from it's location is a tricky reading but again i'd allow it because it would be fun, short lived, and not-too-strong by a long way.

Well the greatest limitation is that you must cast with your own senses, and since I've been unable to find any spells or class abilities which don't either break concentration on Invoke Duplicity or take up your action on your turn in order to do so externally, that means you'll have to maintain the illusion from somewhere you can view your targets, which usually means they can also see you in the line of sight, unless you're hiding. But as soon as you cast a spell with verbal components at least or make an attack, you're out of hiding. So that doesn't work very well, the only possible exception I can think of would be for someone to cast Greater Invisibility on you with their own concentration, but unless you're a sorcerer with Subtle spell, or have the Book of the Stilled Tongue, you'd still make verbal sounds when you do that. But I suppose you can do it, then move 30 feet away to avoid direct attacks at least. Finally, creatures with Truesight can see through any illusion and invisibility, so they will automatically know Invoke Duplicity is an illusion. Creatures with something like Blindsight might not even know your illusion exists but sense you, actually. Although that can be bypass by making you illusion cast a spell which produces a sound at it's location like Minor Illusion or Magic Mouth to fool such creatures into attacking the space where the illusion is. All of that is why you need the Forcecage or Etherealness, it would hardly work otherwise.

And yes, you could actually cast Invoke Duplicity on the Prime Material first, and then cast Etherealness on yourself if you wanted to.

[Coretex]

Well the greatest limitation is that you must cast with your own senses

That is a good point which I had entirely forgotten, and severely reduces it's use, as you described.
You could still cast aoe abilities at the spot you can see behind it without being able to see the enemies, but that is getting very hard to pull off.

What about abilities with a range of self, like spirit guardians? Do you need to see "yourself" to cast it on yourself?

[Renduaz]

That is a good point which I had entirely forgotten, and severely reduces it's use, as you described.
You could still cast aoe abilities at the spot you can see behind it without being able to see the enemies, but that is getting very hard to pull off.

What about abilities with a range of self, like spirit guardians? Do you need to see "yourself" to cast it on yourself?

Indeed, that's why it's a good thing we have the Etherealness or Forcecage. I don't think you'd need to see yourself, pretty sure it's possible to cast "Self" spells while blind. You just need a clear path to the target in order to target something, and you do have it. You only need line of sight when casting certain range spells in order to see other creatures, not so you can see your illusion. You don't need to see your illusion in order to cast, it's automatically cast as though you were in the illusion's space.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, being on another plane means you can't affect the Material Plane unless you have a SPECIFIC exception. Forcecage, Wall of Force, and the other Force spells have that exception. The vast majority of spells (and Invoke Duplicity) do not.

[Corran]

Yeah, being on another plane means you can't affect the Material Plane unless you have a SPECIFIC exception. Forcecage, Wall of Force, and the other Force spells have that exception. The vast majority of spells (and Invoke Duplicity) do not.
If the duplicate is already in the material plane, and you cast etherealness, then why cant you just cast spells through the duplicate on subsequent turns? The CD description explicitely states that you can do that, ie that you cast spells as if you were in the duplicate's space (assuming you see the target).

[JNAProductions]

If the duplicate is already in the material plane, and you cast etherealness, then why cant you just cast spells through the duplicate on subsequent turns? The CD description explicitely states that you can do that, ie that you cast spells as if you were in the duplicate's space (assuming you see the target).

It was brought up earlier-you cast spells as if you were in the Illusion's space.

I WOULD allow you to cast a spell centered on the Illusion, but effecting only the Ethereal Plane, since that's you, in that same position.

I would NOT allow you to cast spells on the Material Plane from the Illusion. I could get nitpicky and say your Illusions vanish, since they're on another plane, but I don't think leaving them existing is a big deal. (RAW, though, pretty sure they'd vanish. Extraplanar is pretty far.)

[Renduaz]

Yeah, being on another plane means you can't affect the Material Plane unless you have a SPECIFIC exception. Forcecage, Wall of Force, and the other Force spells have that exception. The vast majority of spells (and Invoke Duplicity) do not.

That's an interesting house rule. Still works per RAW though from the overlapping 4th-dimensional space of the Border Ethereal, and which "True Seeing" perfectly clarifies is, in fact, no different distance away in feet ( 3-dimensionally ), which is all you need to create the illusion in a space you can see within 30 feet of you.

[thereaper]

Well, we can't speak in terms of "game mechanics" since game mechanics don't really discuss 4th dimensional positioning except in certain unique situations which it gives a bit information on, but we do know for sure they aren't in the same space by definition, since that would be a paradox, and there would be absolutely no difference with Etherealness. We do know that the Border Ethereal, literally why it's called "Border" unlike the Deep Ethereal, is because it overlaps with the Prime Material's 3-dimensional space at least, as a 4th dimension. Hence why you can pass through objects and creatures without any change to your body or anything else, just by stepping into that plane. You occupy their space 3-dimensionally ( What human senses can perceive ), but not 4-dimensionally. Just like the stacked papers and the height between them.

Now, as for the second part, that's where the measurement unit "feet" and the "overlapping" nature of the 4th-dimensional Border Ethereal steps in. Feet is a 3-dimensional measurement unit, and the Border Ethereal overlaps with the 3-dimensional space of the Prime Material, hence why you can still move around as if you were still 3-dimensionally in the Prime Material, through objects and creatures and such, because you're in the 4th dimensional space of the Border Ethereal. When I create my illusion outside the Border Ethereal's ( 4th-dimensional space ) and in the Prime Material, I would still be 30 feet away from it, 3-dimensionally, which is the only thing I can be, since feet is a 3-dimensional measurement unit.

Let's go back to the papers analogy. To a two-dimensional creature who could only use two-dimensional measurement units, how much distance is there between the stacked, perfectly aligned paper sheets? Nothing. Height doesn't exist in it's measuring. Lift up the upper page 1 feet from the lower page while somehow still retaining perfect alignment, and by the two-dimensional creature's measuring system, there's still no distance between them. His measurement unit, we'll call it "X", only counts horizontal distance. Move the upper or lower paper 5 feet away horizontally from each other, and only then is there "5 units of X distance" between them. Now if that creature had an ability that says "You can only activate this within 30 X of you", and he somehow learned of the lower page and wanted to activate it on there, and you elevated the upper page 500 feet above the lower page, would the ability still work? Yes, since it's still either 0 ( If perfectly aligned horizontally ) or 5 units of "X" away from that 2-dimensional creature. That both pages are 500 feet from each other on the "Y" axis doesn't matter, because the requirement is "X" distance.

Now to complete the picture in your mind, imagine once again the perfectly aligned stacked papers, and the upper paper suddenly entering some 4th dimensional space while you can still view it as some kind of holographic thing, and it descends down 1 milimeter to perfectly align with the lower paper, now both horizontally and vertically, in 3D space. How many feet away is it from the lower paper currently? Zero. Now that upper paper represents the entire Border Ethereal plane overlapping 3-dimensionally with the entire Prime Material of the lower paper, with, as you say, an undetermined, technically infinite distance between them, except that distance is some kind of 4th-dimensional "Z" axis, not feet. There are 0 feet between the upper paper in the Ethereal and the lower paper in the Prime Material, both occupying the same 3-dimensional space, but not the same 4th dimensional space.

And yes, you can in fact do anything the rules don't say you can't, including your soul taking a portal back. That's up to the DM though, most DM's choose to incorporate our own universe's Laws of Physics in their campaigns, such as that if you drop an apple, it falls. ( At least on the Prime Material, in some planes it can be completely bizarre ), or that death results in your soul departing your body and then you can only keep on adventuring as undead or with resurrection spells, doesn't have to be that way on the Prime Material though. In fact, in the Dungeon Master's Guide variant rules, that's precisely what happens in the plane of Ysgard. Anything which dies in battle is just restored to life in the next dawn.

But this isn't even such a case, it's a case of "You can do anything the rules say you can". I can create the illusion in a space I can see within 30 feet, there are no planar restrictions as long as the former requirement is met ( There are spells which do have planar restrictions ), therefore there's no reason I can't do it, according to what the rules tell me that I can do.



Read above.

Your whole argument rests on the idea that the game mechanics allow you to do X. So, yes, we are speaking in terms of game mechanics. You're either in the space or you're not, mechanically. Either way, it doesn't work. You don't get to argue for RAW when it benefits you and ignore it when it doesn't. There are no mechanics for your 4th dimensional fluff, and it therefore doesn't apply.

And if you can do anything the rules don't say you can't, then I destroy your illusion with my illusory sword, because there's nothing saying I can't. So your trick still doesn't work.

[Seafarer]

A lot of other people have already said most of the things that needed saying, but I'd like to point out that you cannot use a bonus action to move the illusion when using etherealness, because you can't affect anything other than creatures on the Ethereal Plane (which the illusion is obviously not). The rest seems fine - you're spending multiple resources to keep only yourself safe, and your high-level spell slots are limited anyway.

Oh, and by the way, you know what else gets rid of a forcecage? Disintegrate. You won't be stopping any high-level enemy casters with that one.

[Kadarai]

Nice! Another Randuaz thread! I was getting board since the last one died out.:smallbiggrin:
seriously, though. Yes invoce duplicity is crazy good if used right but it has limitations as mentioned above, concentration being the greatest one. It allows you to cast spells not through the illusion but as if you were in its space, still keeping your own senses. It is still your spell.

Affecting things in other planes now is a whole other subject. Noting that etherealness also limits your senses to 60ft. Also it states that you CANNOT affect or be affected by creatures or objects not on the ethereal plane by any means, even spells, unless an effect says otherwise. I see no argument there. You are literally less of a ghost of yourself, merely viewing things from the ethereal to the material unless you have some specific spell that mentions otherwise. Even forcecage assumes that you cast in the material and it extends on the ethereal, not vice verca, so casting it in the ethereal would just create an ethereal prison by RAW. Even in previous editions force effects crossed into the ethereal only one way in most cases, from material to ethereal and not the reverse.

This is not entirely a theoretical exercise. It has limitations. It is also part board game and surprisingly this edition has some pretty clear RAW and RAI for the most part.

[Renduaz]

Your whole argument rests on the idea that the game mechanics allow you to do X. So, yes, we are speaking in terms of game mechanics. You're either in the space or you're not, mechanically. Either way, it doesn't work. You don't get to argue for RAW when it benefits you and ignore it when it doesn't. There are no mechanics for your 4th dimensional fluff, and it therefore doesn't apply.

And if you can do anything the rules don't say you can't, then I destroy your illusion with my illusory sword, because there's nothing saying I can't. So your trick still doesn't work.

They do allow me to do X by the clearest interpretation of the RAW. "Etherealness" directly says that it overlaps with the Prime Material. We know they overlap 3-dimensionally since you are "moving through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from.", we know by the most explicit game mechanics such as the description of Etherealness - "You can see and hear the plane you originated from, but everything there looks gray, and you can't see anything more than 60 feet away." Are you reading that? While YOU are on the Border Ethereal, YOU can't see anything "more than 60 feet AWAY" ( From your position ), perfectly underlining the fact that what you see 60 feet away in the Prime Material is, in fact, STILL 60 feet away from you in feet distance, despite being on another plane, which TEH GAEM MECHANICS of the spell "True Seeing" also confirms.

And no, as I've told you already, it's not a case of "You can do anything the rules don't say you can't", it's a case of "You can do anything the rules say you can, unless indicated otherwise." - The rules say I can create the illusion in any space I can see within 30 feet, "Etherealness" and "True Seeing" confirm that it is indeed the case, and the only restriction about not affecting creatures outside of the Border Ethereal is circumvented by the game mechanics of "Invoke Duplicity", which states that spells are cast "As though you were in the Illusion's space". And going back to the beginning, game mechanics make it absolutely clear that what I can see in the Prime Material plane is still up to 60 feet away from me, therefore I can create the illusion in the Prime Material.


A lot of other people have already said most of the things that needed saying, but I'd like to point out that you cannot use a bonus action to move the illusion when using etherealness, because you can't affect anything other than creatures on the Ethereal Plane (which the illusion is obviously not). The rest seems fine - you're spending multiple resources to keep only yourself safe, and your high-level spell slots are limited anyway.

Oh, and by the way, you know what else gets rid of a forcecage? Disintegrate. You won't be stopping any high-level enemy casters with that one.

But I'm not affecting creatures on the Prime Material, my illusion is not a creature. And while the ability is ongoing, all spells are cast as through you were in the illusion's space, not as though you were in the Border Ethereal. "While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect [ other creatures ] and be affected by other creatures on that plane", and it continues, explicitly clarifying the fact that this is not even an absolutist statement - "Creatures that aren't on the Ethereal Plane can't perceive you and can't interact with you, unless a special ability or magic has given them the ability to do so.". So under the right circumstances you can, in fact, be affected by creatures on a different plane.

But I'm doing neither. I'm only manifesting the illusion, and it is the illusion that affects any creatures if at all, since all spells are cast as though from the illusion's space. At least you're right about Disintegrate though, it does seem like a problem. I guess to deal with the ( few ) spellcasters who have it, you'd need Counterspell, although I wonder if it could actually be thwarted by putting ( With illusion mage hand or unseen servants potentially ) 2-3 layers of translucent fabric draped on the Forcecage so that Disintegrate would have to automatically destroy them as objects first...heh.


Nice! Another Randuaz thread! I was getting board since the last one died out.:smallbiggrin:
seriously, though. Yes invoce duplicity is crazy good if used right but it has limitations as mentioned above, concentration being the greatest one. It allows you to cast spells not through the illusion but as if you were in its space, still keeping your own senses. It is still your spell.

Affecting things in other planes now is a whole other subject. Noting that etherealness also limits your senses to 60ft. Also it states that you CANNOT affect or be affected by creatures or objects not on the ethereal plane by any means, even spells, unless an effect says otherwise. I see no argument there. You are literally less of a ghost of yourself, merely viewing things from the ethereal to the material unless you have some specific spell that mentions otherwise. Even forcecage assumes that you cast in the material and it extends on the ethereal, not vice verca, so casting it in the ethereal would just create an ethereal prison by RAW. Even in previous editions force effects crossed into the ethereal only one way in most cases, from material to ethereal and not the reverse.

This is not entirely a theoretical exercise. It has limitations. It is also part board game and surprisingly this edition has some pretty clear RAW and RAI for the most part.

Yes, we should note that it does, as I've explained above, the latter part of the restriction also clarifies that what I can see in the Prime Material is indeed 60 feet away from my own position in the Border Ethereal, and I can create my illusion in any space I can see within 30 feet. I'm not affecting or being affected by any creatures. It does not say "You cannot be affect or be affected by objects". I missed your fabrications too, Kadarai. Please make sure that every time you open your mouth figuratively, you include direct quotes from the spell description or RAW concerning whatever you claim. Nor is there anything written about spells.

Everything else in your post is merely your own indignation.

[JNAProductions]

You're basically saying "It doesn't say I CAN'T cross planar boundaries with the spell, therefore I can."

Ignoring the fact that the few spells that do cross planar boundaries explicitly call themselves out as doing so, such as the Force spells.

[Renduaz]

You're basically saying "It doesn't say I CAN'T cross planar boundaries with the spell, therefore I can."

Ignoring the fact that the few spells that do cross planar boundaries explicitly call themselves out as doing so, such as the Force spells.

I'm basically saying that the class ability only requires me to choose an occupied space that I can see within 30 feet, and it doesn't say it cannot cross planar boundaries, therefore I can. That's pretty much it, yes. The force spells you speak of do not "cross" the boundaries ( Transferring from one to another ), they extend into the Border Ethereal, such that they are at both planes at once ( occupying all 4 dimensions ). They call themselves out to let you know that because of the extension, they can physically stop ethereal creatures from passing through them. If your logic is that "Any ability which sounds somewhat familiar to another ability must absolutely let you know that it can do something, otherwise you can't", you have problems. Oh boy, "Commune" doesn't work with any deity that resides in another plane, because unlike "Contact Other plane", it says nothing about being able to contact someone in another plane or crossing plane! Who cares if it explicitly says you can contact the deity, just like "Invoke duplicity" says that you can create the illusion in any space you can see within 30 feet?

Likewise, you are ignoring the fact that the abilities which do not work across planar boundaries, such as "Voice of the Chain Master" and "Rary's Telepathic Bond", explicitly state when you cannot communicate with or direct something if you are not on the same plane of existence. JNA, you have no grounds here and you know it. There's no need for stubbornness out of personal feelings.

[JNAProductions]

You can, at best, argue that RAW is unclear, if you are arguing in good faith. Because there is some room for debate, since planar boundaries aren't defined in the rules.

But the clear RAI is that planar boundaries are not something anything can pass without explicit permission. By the same logic, I can cast, say, Burning Hands into the Ethereal Plane-nothing says I can't. Or Meteor Swarm, or Cone Of Cold, or literally any spell that doesn't have words about respecting planar boundaries.

[Renduaz]

You can, at best, argue that RAW is unclear, if you are arguing in good faith. Because there is some room for debate, since planar boundaries aren't defined in the rules.

But the clear RAI is that planar boundaries are not something anything can pass without explicit permission. By the same logic, I can cast, say, Burning Hands into the Ethereal Plane-nothing says I can't. Or Meteor Swarm, or Cone Of Cold, or literally any spell that doesn't have words about respecting planar boundaries.

The RAW is crystal clear. The spell description of Etherealness confirms that it overlaps with the Prime Material, and that overlapping means that the space you see in the Prime Material is the same distance away from you in feet - "You can see and hear the plane you originated from, but everything there looks gray, and you can't see anything more than 60 feet away.". Invoke Duplicity says, "The Illusion appears within an occupied space you can see within 30 feet of you". They are both as perfectly compatible as RAW can be. It can't get more legitimate than this. It's funny how you claim that I "can do anything which the rules say you can't" ( false ), whereas it is actually you who's arguing right now that "You can't do anything which the rules don't explicitly spell out you can". Oh wow, fancy that, nothing says outright that I can cast "Fireball" in other planes, guess that means I can't, even though the description I can target creatures within range. But how spells works in different planes is not defined!


And sure, you actually cast all of those into the Border Ethereal 3-dimensionally as well every time you do so, since it's an overlapping plane. It just wouldn't affect any creature in there.

[JNAProductions]

The RAW is crystal clear. The spell description of Etherealness confirms that it overlaps with the Prime Material, and that overlapping means that the space you see in the Prime Material is the same distance away from you in feet - "You can see and hear the plane you originated from, but everything there looks gray, and you can't see anything more than 60 feet away.". Invoke Duplicity says, "The Illusion appears within an occupied space you can see within 30 feet of you". They are both as perfectly compatible as RAW can be. It can't get more legitimate than this. It's funny how you claim that I "can do anything which the rules say you can't" ( false ), whereas it is actually you who's arguing right now that "You can't do anything which the rules don't explicitly spell out you can". Oh wow, fancy that, nothing says outright that I can cast "Fireball" in other planes, guess that means I can't, even though the description I can target creatures within range. But how spells works in different planes is not defined!


And sure, you actually cast all of those into the Border Ethereal as well every time you do so, since it's an overlapping plane. It just wouldn't affect any creature in there.

But, since you are on the Border Ethereal, your Duplicates would ALSO be on the Border Ethereal. After all, you can't affect the Material Plane, and I'd say creating a visible illusion counts as an effect.

[Renduaz]

But, since you are on the Border Ethereal, your Duplicates would ALSO be on the Border Ethereal. After all, you can't affect the Material Plane, and I'd say creating a visible illusion counts as an effect.

Please read the thread in it's entirety, I've already talked about this with another poster. The Illusion would not be in the Border Ethereal since I'd choose to make it appear in the ( 3-dimensional ) Prime Material space I can see 60 feet into, not in the ( 4-dimensional ) Border Ethereal space. Go read the stacked papers and the height between them analogy at the start of the thread and reply to it if you wish.

The second part has also been addressed - Nothing in "Etherealness" says that you can't affect the Prime Material. It says you can't affect or be affected by creatures in it ( And it actually introduces an exception to the latter when it comes to sight and hearing, and to the former by stating that creatures on the Prime Material can perceive and interact with you if A special ability or magic, Channel Divinity qualifying as both, has given them the ability to do so ). So there is that about creatures with the exceptions, and then there is nothing about not affecting things other than creatures on the Prime Material. Only, as I've already discussed with someone else and resolved, the statement about "You ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane, allowing you to move through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from.", in which "ignore" obviously means what the statement later explains, since you do not "ignore" sight or sounds coming from the Prime Material. There is nothing about creating a magical effect in the Prime Material, your form in the Ethereal would just ignore it physically.

[JNAProductions]

Rules citation on 4th-dimensional space? Because, relevant quote...


While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane.

So, do tell-what part of Invoke Duplicity lets you bypass that?

Edit: Just reread your post, and found this gem.

Post in its entirety:


Please read the thread in it's entirety, I've already talked about this with another poster. The Illusion would not be in the Border Ethereal since I'd choose to make it appear in the ( 3-dimensional ) Prime Material space I can see 60 feet into, not in the ( 4-dimensional ) Border Ethereal space. Go read the stacked papers and the height between them analogy at the start of the thread and reply to it if you wish.

The second part has also been addressed - Nothing in "Etherealness" says that you can't affect the Prime Material. It says you can't affect or be affected by creatures in it ( And it actually introduces an exception to the latter when it comes to sight and hearing, and to the former by stating that creatures on the Prime Material can perceive and interact with you if A special ability or magic, Channel Divinity qualifying as both, has given them the ability to do so ). So there is that about creatures with the exceptions, and then there is nothing about not affecting things other than creatures on the Prime Material. Only, as I've already discussed with someone else and resolved, the statement about "You ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane, allowing you to move through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from.", in which "ignore" obviously means what the statement later explains, since you do not "ignore" sight or sounds coming from the Prime Material. There is nothing about creating a magical effect in the Prime Material, your form in the Ethereal would just ignore it physically.

And the important bit:


Nothing in "Etherealness" says that you can't affect the Prime Material.

You missed a very, very obvious line in the spell.

[Renduaz]

Rules citation on 4th-dimensional space? Because, relevant quote...



So, do tell-what part of Invoke Duplicity lets you bypass that?

Edit: Just reread your post, and found this gem.

Post in its entirety:



And the important bit:



You missed a very, very obvious line in the spell.

JNA, I've told you that I've had the exact same discussion with someone else, and to go reply to the responses I made. I shouldn't have to repeat myself 100 times just because you refuse to do so. The 4th dimension is just in order to illustrate it better to you, the relevant rules citations are "in the area where it overlaps with your current plane." and "More than 60 feet away from you", in which "feet" is a 3-dimensional measurement unit, and in which the spell clarifies that when you step into the Border Ethereal, you're still up to 60 feet from what you're seeing, yet you can somehow pass through occupied 3-dimensional space ( I.E objects ). That's what "4-dimensional space" refers to.

>So, do tell-what part of Invoke Duplicity lets you bypass that?

The part where I don't affect any creatures on the Prime Material when I create the Illusion in it's space, and the part where any spell cast which does affect creatures, is cast "As though you were in the Illusion's space", and the illusion is on the Prime Material.

>You missed a very, very obvious line in the spell.

Please exercise some reading comprehension.

[The Zoat]

The casting isn't affecting from the ethereal plane, since the illusion is on the prime material.

[JNAProductions]

Creating an illusion is creating an effect. Would you say that the Minor Illusion cantrip has no effect? Or that Silent Image has no effect?

So, since an illusion is an effect, you can't create one on the Material Plane if you're Ethereal.

[Renduaz]

Creating an illusion is creating an effect. Would you say that the Minor Illusion cantrip has no effect? Or that Silent Image has no effect?

So, since an illusion is an effect, you can't create one on the Material Plane if you're Ethereal.

Yes, it's an effect. A magical effect according to Channel Divinity, to be precise. But "Etherealness" doesn't say that you can't affect the Prime Material. Only that you can't affect creatures in the Prime Material. You want even more proof that you're wrong, and everything I've said is absolutely correct? DMG, page 48, "Border Ethereal"

-The Ethereal Plane is a misty, fog-bound dimension. ( That's why I refer to it as a 4th dimensional space )

- Normally, creatures in the Border Ethereal can't attack creatures on the overlapped plane , and vice versa. A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible and utterly silent to someone on the overlapped plane , and solid objects on the overlapped plane don't hamper the movement of a creature in the Border Ethereal. The exceptions are certain magical effects (including anything made of magical force) and living beings.

That's what "You can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane" means, along with not hampering movement or affecting the creatures otherwise. There is nothing, NOTHING about affecting the Prime Material in ways that don't affect creatures. Not in "Etherealness", not in the DMG, nowhere.

[tieren]

If someone else casts greater invisibility on a trickery cleric and then he uses invoke duplicity, is the duplicate invisible?

Because an intangible invisible source of touch spells moving through the battlefield would be awesome.

[tieren]

Yes, it's an effect. A magical effect according to Channel Divinity, to be precise. But "Etherealness" doesn't say that you can't affect the Prime Material. Only that you can't affect creatures in the Prime Material.

Does this mean your duplicate is not visible to creatures on the prime material? If they can see it, it could effect their behavior.

[Renduaz]

Does this mean your duplicate is not visible to creatures on the prime material? If they can see it, it could effect their behavior.

The full wording is "you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane", but according to this interpretation, you wouldn't be able to see or hear the plane you originated from ( Which the description says you can ), because someone casting Darkness in the area you overlap with would affect your sight, and a creature shrieking would affect your hearing. But the spell firmly states - "You can only be affected by other creatures on that plane", which suggest sight and hearing are not included in "affect". DMG seems to reinforce that by only stating "Normally, you can't attack other creatures" and that you ( Yourself, your form ) are silent and invisible. I'd also say for that reason, the "Sending" spell, which would otherwise be contradictory in both descriptions if you attempted to send a message to someone on the Prime Material from the Border Ethereal, works as intended.

[Kadarai]

T I'm not affecting or being affected by any creatures. It does not say "You cannot be affect or be affected by objects". I missed your fabrications too, Kadarai. Please make sure that every time you open your mouth figuratively, you include direct quotes from the spell description or RAW concerning whatever you claim. Nor is there anything written about spells.

Everything else in your post is merely your own indignation.

Etherealness
7th-level transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: Self

Components: V, S

Duration: Up to 8 hours

You step into the border regions of the Ethereal Plane, in the area where it overlaps with your current plane. You remain in the Border Ethereal for the duration or until you use your action to dismiss the spell. During this time, you can move in any direction. If you move up or down, every foot of movement costs an extra foot. You can see and hear the plane you originated from, but everything there looks gray, and you can't see anything more than 60 feet away.

While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane. Creatures that aren't on the Ethereal Plane can't perceive you and can't interact with you, unless a special ability or magic has given them the ability to do so.

You ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane, allowing you to move through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from.

When the spell ends, you immediately return to the plane you originated from in the spot you currently occupy. If you occupy the same spot as a solid object or creature when this happens, you are immediately shunted to the nearest unoccupied space that you can occupy and take force damage equal to twice the number of feet you are moved.

This spell has no effect if you cast it while you are on the Ethereal Plane or a plane that doesn't border it, such as one of the Outer Planes.
-------------------------
As per the spell discription, emphasis mine. Learn to read jackass. You are really out of your element. Have a nice day

[Renduaz]

Etherealness
7th-level transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: Self

Components: V, S

Duration: Up to 8 hours

You step into the border regions of the Ethereal Plane, in the area where it overlaps with your current plane. You remain in the Border Ethereal for the duration or until you use your action to dismiss the spell. During this time, you can move in any direction. If you move up or down, every foot of movement costs an extra foot. You can see and hear the plane you originated from, but everything there looks gray, and you can't see anything more than 60 feet away.

While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane. Creatures that aren't on the Ethereal Plane can't perceive you and can't interact with you, unless a special ability or magic has given them the ability to do so.

You ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane, allowing you to move through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from.

When the spell ends, you immediately return to the plane you originated from in the spot you currently occupy. If you occupy the same spot as a solid object or creature when this happens, you are immediately shunted to the nearest unoccupied space that you can occupy and take force damage equal to twice the number of feet you are moved.

This spell has no effect if you cast it while you are on the Ethereal Plane or a plane that doesn't border it, such as one of the Outer Planes.
-------------------------
As per the spell discription, emphasis mine. Learn to read jackass. You are really out of your element. Have a nice day

Holy ****, you are retarded. Creatures =/= space and objects, and "Ignore" means that your physical form ignores them, allowing you to move through them and be unaffected by effects originating there. If it meant what your tiny brain thinks it does, you wouldn't be able to see and hear those effects or objects on the prime material. There is nothing preventing you from creating an effect on the Prime Material as long as it doesn't affect a creature.

[Unoriginal]

So, you'd say that someone under Etherealness could cast Mirage Arcane on the Material Plane?

Or would it be that Mirage Arcane automatically affect creatures because it makes them perceive things differently from what they are?

[Kadarai]

Holy ****, you are retarded. Creatures =/= space and objects, and "Ignore" means that your physical form ignores them, allowing you to move through them and be unaffected by effects originating there. If it meant what your tiny brain thinks it does, you wouldn't be able to see and hear those effects or objects on the prime material. There is nothing preventing you from creating an effect on the Prime Material as long as it doesn't affect a creature.

Sure, well done, you broke the game. Funny how you only understand the reading the way you like it. Ignore can literally mean "ignore" as in "don't interact". period. in any way. spells. abilities. peeing. That also, allows you to pass through them as if they or you are not there. See, I can understand it my own way too. hurray! Cause it's totally logical to not be able to interact with creatures but Nooooooo, I can boooo like a ghost and move stuff! Cause I can bend the fabric of reality!

If you ever wonder why every single thread you post dissolves into chaos, or why you find so may aggressive people around, maybe it's because a) you can't obviously read properly, b) you keep "reading" or "understanding" stuff only under the light you want or care, c)you can't, also obviously take critisism of any kind, d) you keep ignoring a handful of other people telling you where the fault is.

I can only imagine that every table you play at also shares the same fate, and I really am sorry for the people you play with.
You can understand the rules however you like them, you can go blow up the entire hemisphere by forcing a bag of holding through a portable hole cause you think taht is how it works, but please keep your cancerous ideas away for all of our sakes.

[Renduaz]

So, you'd say that someone under Etherealness could cast Mirage Arcane on the Material Plane?

Or would it be that Mirage Arcane automatically affect creatures because it makes them perceive things differently from what they are?

I don't see a reason why not, just as much as someone could cast "Sending" to a creature from the Border Ethereal. "Etherealness" informs us that "You can only be affected by creatures on the same plane", yet at the same time I can see and hear creatures on the Prime Material, their visuals affecting me, if they cast "Darkness" in the area I'm overlapping it affects me, and whatever sounds they make affects me. If it's one of those special creatures or magic abilities, as the spell states, which can see into the Ethereal plane, like I can see into the Prime Material, and they see me, and they choose to create a scary illusion, or pretend they are one of my friends and call out to me, or deceive my attempt to spy on somewhere with illusions, or with a minor illusion sound of one of my friends screaming from somewhere, that would definitely affect me visually, audibly and mentally. Regardless, any illusion or sound from creatures who aren't aware of me but just placed it somewhere anyway would affect my perception and thinking.

Yet according to the spell, I cannot be affected by creatures on the Prime Material. So that's either a contradictory spell, or "affect/affected" precludes those aspects in the context.


Sure, well done, you broke the game. Funny how you only understand the reading the way you like it. Ignore can literally mean "ignore" as in "don't interact". period. in any way. spells. abilities. peeing. That also, allows you to pass through then as if they or them are not there. See, I can understand it my own way too. hurray! Cause it's totally logical to not be able to interact with creatures but Nooooooo, I can boooo like a ghost and move stuff! Cause I can bend the fabric of reality!

If you ever wonder why every single thread you post dissolves into chaos, or why you find so may aggressive people around, maybe it's because a) you can't obviously read properly, b) you keep "reading" or "understanding" stuff only under the light you want or care, c)you can't, also obviously take critisism of any kind, d) you keep ignoring a handful of other people telling you where the fault is.

I can only imagine that every table you play at also shares the same fate, and I really am sorry for the people you play with.
You can understand the rules however you like them, you can go blow up the entire hemisphere by forcing a bag of holding through a portable hole cause you think taht is how it works, but please keep your cancerous ideas away for all of our sakes.

It could mean that, but I'm not speaking about what it could mean, only what the spell description does not include. We know it can't be "Ignore everything", since we aren't ignoring sight or sound. If a meteor landed in the area I overlap with, and I explicitly hear everything which happens there according to the spell, that's definitely going to have an impact on my senses which won't be ignored. So we're left with the question of what IS ignored, since we already know it's specific, and the statement only sheds light on that when it resumes the very same sentence, with "allowing you to move through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from."

Since nothing indicates that things are otherwise ignored, there's no reason to rule for example, that you couldn't cast 'Sending' to someone on the Prime Material from the Border Ethereal. The abilities and spells which do tell us what they can do take precedent over the unknown. But I do interact "in any way" regardless every time I pass through someone's room wall to eavesdrop on him. I just don't interact with it 3-dimensionally with my form.

[thereaper]

They do allow me to do X by the clearest interpretation of the RAW. "Etherealness" directly says that it overlaps with the Prime Material. We know they overlap 3-dimensionally since you are "moving through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from.", we know by the most explicit game mechanics such as the description of Etherealness - "You can see and hear the plane you originated from, but everything there looks gray, and you can't see anything more than 60 feet away." Are you reading that? While YOU are on the Border Ethereal, YOU can't see anything "more than 60 feet AWAY" ( From your position ), perfectly underlining the fact that what you see 60 feet away in the Prime Material is, in fact, STILL 60 feet away from you in feet distance, despite being on another plane, which TEH GAEM MECHANICS of the spell "True Seeing" also confirms.

And no, as I've told you already, it's not a case of "You can do anything the rules don't say you can't", it's a case of "You can do anything the rules say you can, unless indicated otherwise." - The rules say I can create the illusion in any space I can see within 30 feet, "Etherealness" and "True Seeing" confirm that it is indeed the case, and the only restriction about not affecting creatures outside of the Border Ethereal is circumvented by the game mechanics of "Invoke Duplicity", which states that spells are cast "As though you were in the Illusion's space". And going back to the beginning, game mechanics make it absolutely clear that what I can see in the Prime Material plane is still up to 60 feet away from me, therefore I can create the illusion in the Prime Material.



But I'm not affecting creatures on the Prime Material, my illusion is not a creature. And while the ability is ongoing, all spells are cast as through you were in the illusion's space, not as though you were in the Border Ethereal. "While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect [ other creatures ] and be affected by other creatures on that plane", and it continues, explicitly clarifying the fact that this is not even an absolutist statement - "Creatures that aren't on the Ethereal Plane can't perceive you and can't interact with you, unless a special ability or magic has given them the ability to do so.". So under the right circumstances you can, in fact, be affected by creatures on a different plane.

But I'm doing neither. I'm only manifesting the illusion, and it is the illusion that affects any creatures if at all, since all spells are cast as though from the illusion's space. At least you're right about Disintegrate though, it does seem like a problem. I guess to deal with the ( few ) spellcasters who have it, you'd need Counterspell, although I wonder if it could actually be thwarted by putting ( With illusion mage hand or unseen servants potentially ) 2-3 layers of translucent fabric draped on the Forcecage so that Disintegrate would have to automatically destroy them as objects first...heh.



Yes, we should note that it does, as I've explained above, the latter part of the restriction also clarifies that what I can see in the Prime Material is indeed 60 feet away from my own position in the Border Ethereal, and I can create my illusion in any space I can see within 30 feet. I'm not affecting or being affected by any creatures. It does not say "You cannot be affect or be affected by objects". I missed your fabrications too, Kadarai. Please make sure that every time you open your mouth figuratively, you include direct quotes from the spell description or RAW concerning whatever you claim. Nor is there anything written about spells.

Again, there is absolutely nothing in Invoke Duplicity saying it works across planes. Saying "but I can place it wherever I can see it" doesn't matter here. Otherwise I could argue that the AoE from fireball works across planes.

But never mind; you have admitted that they are the same space by admitting that they overlap 3-dimensionally.

Invoke Duplicity says that you cast spells as if you were in their space. It doesn't say you cast as if from their plane. So, by RAW, you're still casting from the ethereal plane; just on the ethereal side of the illusion's space. Useful, huh? :smallwink:

And also, Etherealness says that you ignore effects not on the ethereal plane, so you ignore your illusion, as well. So, you can't cast from the illusion's space, because that would mean acknowledging it, and the rules say you ignore it. It doesn't give you a choice in the matter, like it does with casting from the illusion's space. You have to ignore the illusion, and therefore cannot utilize your theoretical ability to cast from its space.

But if you really want to argue RAW, you definitely can't place the illusion in another plane, because you can only affect and be affected by creatures of the ethereal plane. In other words, the only things you can do while ethereal are move (since there's a specific exception in Etherealness for that), perceive (another specific exception), or do things that affect ethereal creatures. According to you, putting an illusion in the material plane is not "affecting or being affected by a creature of the ethereal plane", so you can't do it.

:smallbiggrin:

Live RAW; die RAW.

[Renduaz]

Again, there is absolutely nothing in Invoke Duplicity saying it works across planes. Saying "but I can place it wherever I can see it" doesn't matter here. Otherwise I could argue that the AoE from fireball works across planes.

And there is absolutely nothing in "Magic Missile" which says it would work when cast in the Nine Hells. What's your point again? And Fireball AOE does work with the overlapping Border Ethereal, but no creatures are going to be affected by it in their physical form, they're just going to see and hear it if they're in the overlapping area.


But never mind; you have admitted that they are the same space by admitting that they overlap 3-dimensionally.

Only because you are illiterate. They are not "the same space" just as much as two papers stacked perfectly horizontally on top of each other are not occupying the same space. They're on the same X axis but not Y axis, and the Border Ethereal is on the same 3-dimensional axis, but not 4-dimensional planar one. That's why it's an overlapping plane.


Invoke Duplicity says that you cast spells as if you were in their space. It doesn't say you cast as if from their plane. So, by RAW, you're still casting from the ethereal plane; just on the ethereal side of the illusion's space. Useful, huh? :smallwink:

Please make sure that you attend a basic physics lesson so you understand what "Space" means in the English language. The border ethereal is a different space than the Prime Material, just like if you lift up a paper 5 feet above a lower paper, the height between them constitutes 3-dimensional space.


But if you really want to argue RAW, you definitely can't place the illusion in another plane, because you can only affect and be affected by creatures of the ethereal plane. In other words, the only things you can do while ethereal are move (since there's a specific exception in Etherealness for that), perceive (another specific exception), or do things that affect ethereal creatures. According to you, putting an illusion in the material plane is not "affecting or being affected by a creature of the ethereal plane", so you can't do it.

Except that if you defined "affect" in that manner the spell would be contradictory. It states you can't be affected by creatures on the Prime Material, yet any illusions created by creatures on the Prime Material are definitely going to affect me visually, audibly and mentally. Do you believe that you can't cast "Sending" from the Border Ethereal into the Prime Material?

:smallbiggrin:


And also, Etherealness says that you ignore effects not on the ethereal plane, so you ignore your illusion, as well.

That's now how you define "Ignore" in the context, since sight and sound are effects, and I do not ignore them. Ignore means, as the spell clarifies in the full sentence, that your physical form ignores objects and effects.

[thereaper]

I fully understand the concept of multiple dimensions. I even know approximately how many the universe is supposed to have according to String Theory (10-11 spatial, depending on how you do the math, and 1 temporal). None of it has any relevance to the mechanics of this game.

If the border ethereal were a different space, then there would be some distance between it and a corresponding space in the material plane. You have already argued this to not be the case.

The spell doesn't say that it only means ignore in that way, just like Invoke Duplicity doesn't say it doesn't work across planes. I'm just applying your logic.

Hey, you're the one arguing for a RAW interpretation. It's not my fault if the RAW is contradictory.

See, this is your problem. If you argue from a RAI perspective, it doesn't work. If you argue from a RAW perspective, it also doesn't work due to the way things are worded.

In other words, it doesn't work.

[Renduaz]

I fully understand the concept of multiple dimensions. I even know approximately how many the universe is supposed to have according to String Theory (10-11 spatial, depending on how you do the math, and 1 temporal). None of it has any relevance to the mechanics of this game.

If the border ethereal were a different space, then there would be some distance between it and a corresponding space in the material plane. You have already argued this to not be the case.

The spell doesn't say that it only means ignore in that way, just like Invoke Duplicity doesn't say it doesn't work across planes. I'm just applying your logic.

Hey, you're the one arguing for a RAW interpretation. It's not my fault if the RAW is contradictory.

See, this is your problem. If you argue from a RAI perspective, it doesn't work. If you argue from a RAW perspective, it also doesn't work due to the way things are worded.

In other words, it doesn't work.

You clearly don't understand the concept. DMG, page 48, the Border Ethereal is a dimension. "Etherealness", spell description - the Border Ethereal overlaps in an area with the Prime Material. "Etherealness", "True Seeing", spell descriptions - When you are on the Border Ethereal, looking into the plane you originated from, you're still the same distance away in feet from what you're seeing, and vice versa. "Etherealness", spell description - Yet you can still pass though 3-dimensional objects in the Prime Material, despite being the same distance in feet away from them. Because it's a 4th dimensional space.

There is indeed distance between them, which I never argued not to be the case, if you had actually read the thread or understood English. But that distance is not in feet, which is a 3-dimensional measurement unit. Just like there can be distance in height ( Y axis ) between two perfectly aligned papers, but not in X axis. The distance of the Border Ethereal from the Prime Material is not X nor Y in feet ( Which Etherealness clarifies ), it's an unknown "Z" axis. The only requirement to Invoke Duplicity is that you can see an unoccupied space within 30 feet. Which I do see - the overlapping 3-dimensional space of the Prime Material, which isn't the same space as the Border Ethereal, just like if you created a two-dimensional figure on a lower paper, it does not occupy the same space as everything above it just because they're on the same X axis. There is height between them which constitutes it's own space, that you could wiggle a finger through without ever touching the two-dimensional figure below.

You're not applying my logic though, which is "Abilities work as long as their requirements are met and there is no explicit restriction, either in game mechanics or the laws of physics which prevail in a campaign of the DM's choosing". Now, a DM's multiverse physics in his campaign is a different story. A DM could decide spells and abilities don't work across planes due to the Multiverse's law of magic/physics, but that would be a personal campaign rule, not game mechanics RAW. When it comes to game mechanics and RAW, the only question which remains is if there is any direct restriction. We can't claim that things don't work unless the exact situation is spelled out, otherwise you could claim it's impossible to cast "Magic Missile" in the Nine Hells. Because nothing says it's possible, we just know it works if you pick a target within range, just like we know Invoke Duplicity requires you to choose an unoccupied space within 30 feet that you can see.

As for "Ignore", if you actually look up the dictionary definitions, the context in the spell fails to hold up to any of them. Since you acknowledge, see and hear creatures and effects on the Prime Material, so we can't use the dictionary here to speculate on what the authors meant. So we have to use the context, which is - "You ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane, allowing you to move through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from." which suggests physical form.

In fact, even without context, going by pure wording, it would be perfectly possible to cast something like "Creation" into the Prime Material. Because the created object doesn't exist outside the Ethereal until the very moment in which it is created, and you only ignore objects "that aren't on the Ethereal Plane" ( I.E, they'd have to exist outside of it, in the Prime Material, to begin with ). So that in fact works under any interpretation of the sentence. But under the sentence's context, and with the lack of a dictionary definition of "Ignore", I can find no reason why Invoke Duplicity wouldn't work.

[georgie_leech]

Point of order, if the ethereal plain is a spatial dimension that allows you to pass through things, you are absolutely further away. Watch:

1 2



3 4

In 1-dimensional space, 2 and 4 are equidistant from 1. In 2+ Dimensional space, 4 is demonstrably further from 1 than 2 is. The same is true for all spatial dimensions.

[Renduaz]

Point of order, if the ethereal plain is a spatial dimension that allows you to pass through things, you are absolutely further away. Watch:

1 2



3 4

In 1-dimensional space, 2 and 4 are equidistant from 1. In 2+ Dimensional space, 4 is demonstrably further from 1 than 2 is. The same is true for all spatial dimensions.


You should also read the discussions first. It is further away, just not in feet. Feet is a 3-dimensional measurement unit, and I only need to be 30 feet away in order to create the illusion. "Etherealness" clarifies that what you can see on the Prime Material is, in fact, up to 60 feet away from you in distance. Just like if you had a measurement units that only measures a two-dimensional X axis, no matter how far away something was in Y axis, it would still be the same number of "X unit" away from a specific position.

[georgie_leech]

You should also read the discussions first. It is further away, just not in feet. Feet is a 3-dimensional measurement unit, and I only need to be 30 feet away in order to create the illusion. "Etherealness" clarifies that what you can see on the Prime Material is, in fact, up to 60 feet away from you in distance. Just like if you had a measurement units that only measures a two-dimensional X axis, no matter how far away something was in Y axis, it would still be the same number of "X unit" away from a specific position.

Not really. Vector analysis doesn't depend on specific units. You can easily calculate how far the various vertices of a hypercube are from each other in 4d space in cm. So either the Ethereal is a spatial dimension that results in you being some distance away from the material plane, or they use dimension in the "IT CAME FROM DIMENSION X!!!!" (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0362/5733/products/Dimension_X_1024x1024.jpg?v=1416265705) (i.e. another plane of existence) sense.

[Renduaz]

Not really. Vector analysis doesn't depend on specific units. You can easily calculate how far the various vertices of a hypercube are from each other in 4d space in cm. So either the Ethereal is a spatial dimension that results in you being some distance away from the material plane, or they use dimension in the "IT CAME FROM DIMENSION X!!!!" (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0362/5733/products/Dimension_X_1024x1024.jpg?v=1416265705) (i.e. another plane of existence) sense.

This is not 3-dimensional space or a hypercube, and regardless, I will explain to you once again - feet is the only distance unit which matters for the purpose of using Invoke Duplicity. The ability doesn't care how far aware you are in any other analysis, except for feet. Etherealness informs us that the planes do overlap 3-dimensionally and that whatever you see in the plane you originated from ( That would be the Prime Material ) , is in fact up to 60 feet away. Full quote - "You can see and hear the plane you originated from, but everything there looks gray, and you can't see anything more than 60 feet away." 60 feet away from you. What you see in the plane you originated from is 0 to 60 feet away from you.

That's it, full stop. That's all it takes for me to create the illusion "In an unoccupied space you can see within 30 feet of you".

[thereaper]

You clearly don't understand the concept. DMG, page 48, the Border Ethereal is a dimension. "Etherealness", spell description - the Border Ethereal overlaps in an area with the Prime Material. "Etherealness", "True Seeing", spell descriptions - When you are on the Border Ethereal, looking into the plane you originated from, you're still the same distance away in feet from what you're seeing, and vice versa. "Etherealness", spell description - Yet you can still pass though 3-dimensional objects in the Prime Material, despite being the same distance in feet away from them. Because it's a 4th dimensional space.

There is indeed distance between them, which I never argued not to be the case, if you had actually read the thread or understood English. But that distance is not in feet, which is a 3-dimensional measurement unit. Just like there can be distance in height ( Y axis ) between two perfectly aligned papers, but not in X axis. The distance of the Border Ethereal from the Prime Material is not X nor Y in feet ( Which Etherealness clarifies ), it's an unknown "Z" axis. The only requirement to Invoke Duplicity is that you can see an unoccupied space within 30 feet. Which I do see - the overlapping 3-dimensional space of the Prime Material, which isn't the same space as the Border Ethereal, just like if you created a two-dimensional figure on a lower paper, it does not occupy the same space as everything above it just because they're on the same X axis. There is height between them which constitutes it's own space, that you could wiggle a finger through without ever touching the two-dimensional figure below.

You're not applying my logic though, which is "Abilities work as long as their requirements are met and there is no explicit restriction, either in game mechanics or the laws of physics which prevail in a campaign of the DM's choosing". Now, a DM's multiverse physics in his campaign is a different story. A DM could decide spells and abilities don't work across planes due to the Multiverse's law of magic/physics, but that would be a personal campaign rule, not game mechanics RAW. When it comes to game mechanics and RAW, the only question which remains is if there is any direct restriction. We can't claim that things don't work unless the exact situation is spelled out, otherwise you could claim it's impossible to cast "Magic Missile" in the Nine Hells. Because nothing says it's possible, we just know it works if you pick a target within range, just like we know Invoke Duplicity requires you to choose an unoccupied space within 30 feet that you can see.

As for "Ignore", if you actually look up the dictionary definitions, the context in the spell fails to hold up to any of them. Since you acknowledge, see and hear creatures and effects on the Prime Material, so we can't use the dictionary here to speculate on what the authors meant. So we have to use the context, which is - "You ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane, allowing you to move through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from." which suggests physical form.

In fact, even without context, going by pure wording, it would be perfectly possible to cast something like "Creation" into the Prime Material. Because the created object doesn't exist outside the Ethereal until the very moment in which it is created, and you only ignore objects "that aren't on the Ethereal Plane" ( I.E, they'd have to exist outside of it, in the Prime Material, to begin with ). So that in fact works under any interpretation of the sentence. But under the sentence's context, and with the lack of a dictionary definition of "Ignore", I can find no reason why Invoke Duplicity wouldn't work.

You haven't met the requirements, because Invoke Duplicity isn't on the short list of things you're allowed to do while ethereal. Furthermore, you can't argue that you can do something by RAW because of the laws of physics, because they aren't RAW to begin with (except for the ones that the RAW has specifically defined). Trying to bring in any physics beyond that means going back to RAI, where your trick doesn't work.

Overlap (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overlap)

"to occupy the same area in part"

If they don't occupy the same space, then they're not overlapping, but rather adjacent. And if they're not the same space, then there's some distance between them, which is not defined by the rules. So, 30 feet away from you in the prime material wouldn't actually be 30 feet away, but 30+x feet. But they are specifically noted as overlapping, so they are indeed occupying the same space. That means you're still casting from the Border Ethereal (or would be, if any of the rest of it worked, which it doesn't).

I'm not speculating on what the authors meant; I'm going by what it says. It says you can only do certain things while ethereal, and Invoke Duplicity isn't one of them. If you want to say "oh, but the rest of the sentence implies they only mean it like this", well, then you're getting back into intent, and therefore Rules As Intended territory, in which case the whole thing falls flat on its face.

Ignore (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ignore)

"to refuse to take notice of"

If you could create an illusion in the prime material, you wouldn't be allowed to take notice of it. You therefore would not be able to cast from its space, because that would mean acknowledging it existed, since you couldn't cast from other spaces besides your own any other way.

If we consider context, then that means considering intent, and then your trick doesn't work, because it's obviously not intended. You have no choice but to argue for a literal reading of the rules. But a literal reading still doesn't allow it to work, because of the literal wording.

So, in summary, it doesn't work RAI, and it doesn't work RAW.

[Renduaz]

You haven't met the requirements, because Invoke Duplicity isn't on the short list of things you're allowed to do while ethereal. Furthermore, you can't argue that you can do something by RAW because of the laws of physics, because they aren't RAW to begin with (except for the ones that the RAW has specifically defined). Trying to bring in any physics beyond that means going back to RAI, where your trick doesn't work.

Overlap (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overlap)

"to occupy the same area in part"

If they don't occupy the same space, then they're not overlapping, but rather adjacent. And if they're not the same space, then there's some distance between them, which is not defined by the rules. So, 30 feet away from you in the prime material wouldn't actually be 30 feet away, but 30+x feet. But they are specifically noted as overlapping, so they are indeed occupying the same space. That means you're still casting from the Border Ethereal (or would be, if any of the rest of it worked, which it doesn't).

I'm not speculating on what the authors meant; I'm going by what it says. It says you can only do certain things while ethereal, and Invoke Duplicity isn't one of them. If you want to say "oh, but the rest of the sentence implies they only mean it like this", well, then you're getting back into intent, and therefore Rules As Intended territory, in which case the whole thing falls flat on its face.

Ignore (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ignore)

"to refuse to take notice of"

If you could create an illusion in the prime material, you wouldn't be allowed to take notice of it. You therefore would not be able to cast from its space, because that would mean acknowledging it existed, since you couldn't cast from other spaces besides your own any other way.

If we consider context, then that means considering intent, and then your trick doesn't work, because it's obviously not intended. You have no choice but to argue for a literal reading of the rules. But a literal reading still doesn't allow it to work, because of the literal wording.

So, in summary, it doesn't work RAI, and it doesn't work RAW.

Looks like I'm going to have to repeat myself a million times especially for you. I meet all requirements of Invoke Duplicity, because I need a space I can see within 30 feet of me. I'm not arguing by physics, because the "Etherealness" spell description explicitly says that what you see in the Prime Material is still up to 60 feet away from you, not any other distance in feet. They overlap in part because they occupy the same area 3-dimensionally, as the DMG states, the Border Ethereal is a dimension. There is a distance between them, but that distance isn't in feet ( XY axis ), since the rules make clear that you're up to 60 feet from what you're seeing. Are we going to have 10 pages of this thread in which I have to copypaste the same answer over and over again?

"You can only do what the rules explicitly say you can do" is not how RAW works. Guess I can't speak in the Border Ethereal, nothing outright says I can. I suppose I can't swallow my own saliva either on the Border Ethereal because nothing says I can. I guess I can't use my brain in the Border Ethereal for anything other than seeing and hearing. Can't calculate, can't memorize, nothing in the spell says I can after all. Guess I can't cast any spells nor attack even in the Border Ethereal itself since nothing explicitly says I can in the spell, unlike hearing and seeing and "affecting creatures", but nothing about it meaning attack or casting spells.

As I've told you, just in this very post, the dictionary definition doesn't work. It says I ignore all objects and effects on the Prime Material, and if I "refused to take notice" of them, I wouldn't be able to look or listen to them. Can you even read properly? Considering context doesn't mean considering intent. It means considering the full sentence as written, not just the first part of it.

[Luppers]

This thread has convinced me to make an account, just to point out how these ideas don't work.

So, ignoring the "if its not explicitly against the rules, it works" thinking (which i can only imagine would lead to chaos, there's no rule saying a great-sword CAN'T cut off a level 20 wizards hands in one hit, etc), the rules for spell targeting (see PHB pg 204) state you need a clear path to the target. In this case since you are casting through the illusion (you are the conduit for the magical energy NOT the illusion) you need a clear path to the illusion to cast anything through it. Being on a different plane to the illusion clearly means there is no path (you can't cast through glass either so "i can see it so there is a clear path" doesn't work). Likewise the forcecage spell blocks spells cast into or out of the area.

And before the argument "you can cast spells as though you were in the illusions space" is repeated, ask yourself, if the caster is in an antimagic field and the illusion isn't, could the spell still be cast. If the answer is no, then the spell originates from the caster and needs a clear line of effect. If yes, then congratulations your illusion has gained the ability to channel magic without a caster.

TLDR: you need a clear path, the spell goes from caster to illusion to target, no clear path means it doesn't work.

[Renduaz]

This thread has convinced me to make an account, just to point out how these ideas don't work.

So, ignoring the "if its not explicitly against the rules, it works" thinking (which i can only imagine would lead to chaos, there's no rule saying a great-sword CAN'T cut off a level 20 wizards hands in one hit, etc), the rules for spell targeting (see PHB pg 204) state you need a clear path to the target. In this case since you are casting through the illusion (you are the conduit for the magical energy NOT the illusion) you need a clear path to the illusion to cast anything through it. Being on a different plane to the illusion clearly means there is no path (you can't cast through glass either so "i can see it so there is a clear path" doesn't work). Likewise the forcecage spell blocks spells cast into or out of the area.

And before the argument "you can cast spells as though you were in the illusions space" is repeated, ask yourself, if the caster is in an antimagic field and the illusion isn't, could the spell still be cast. If the answer is no, then the spell originates from the caster and needs a clear line of effect. If yes, then congratulations your illusion has gained the ability to channel magic without a caster.

TLDR: you need a clear path, the spell goes from caster to illusion to target, no clear path means it doesn't work.

It's rather "If the rules state something can be done and there's no explicit restriction on doing it under a certain circumstance, whether a DM campaign physics or game mechanics restriction", then it can be done. That's how D&D rules function. And you're right, there's actually no rule saying you couldn't cut off the Wizard's hand, that's within the realm of the Laws of Physics in a game campaign, determined by the DM. Certain DM's ( Like Matthew Mercer in Critical Role ) allow for targeting and cutting off creatures biologically ( Eyes, hands ) using a system of their own judgement when it comes to what it takes to do so, while other DM's don't allow you to dismember creatures as long as they still have hit points remaining. I do have a clear path to the target, since it's not concealed, and within 30 feet away, according to the spell itself. Glass is solid matter, an overlapping plane isn't.

As for Forcecage, please pull your head out of the sand for one minute to read the spell description, will you? Invoke Duplicity isn't even a spell. And it's still possible to cast spells within the Forcecage ( Such as teleportation ), just not through the barrier, but that's why it works if you cast it as though you were in the Illusion's space, unlike an anti-magic field. Your spellcasting works inside the Forcecage, but the spell is unleashed as though it were from the Illusion's space. I think you should stick to lurking.

[Luppers]

It's rather "If the rules state something can be done and there's no explicit restriction on doing it under a certain circumstance, whether a DM campaign physics or game mechanics restriction", then it can be done. That's how D&D rules function. And you're right, there's actually no rule saying you couldn't cut off the Wizard's hand, that's within the realm of the Laws of Physics in a game campaign, determined by the DM. Certain DM's ( Like Matthew Mercer in Critical Role ) allow for targeting and cutting off creatures biologically ( Eyes, hands ) using a system of their own judgement when it comes to what it takes to do so, while other DM's don't allow you to dismember creatures as long as they still have hit points remaining. I do have a clear path to the target, since it's not concealed, and within 30 feet away, according to the spell itself. Glass is solid matter, an overlapping plane isn't.

As for Forcecage, please pull your head out of the sand for one minute to read the spell description, will you? Invoke Duplicity isn't even a spell. And it's still possible to cast spells within the Forcecage ( Such as teleportation ), just not through the barrier, but that's why it works if you cast it as though you were in the Illusion's space, unlike an anti-magic field. Your spellcasting works inside the Forcecage, but the spell is unleashed as though it were from the Illusion's space. I think you should stick to lurking.

Ok for the ethereal plane

The Ethereal Plane is a misty, fog-bound dimension
that is sometimes described as a great ocean. Its shores,
called the Border Ethereal, overlap the Material Plane
and the Inner Planes, so that every location on those
planes has a corresponding location on the Ethereal
Plane.

Corresponding =/= same so RAW you are on a different but overlapping plane, and as such you do NOT have a line of effect to the prime material plane, only to the corresponding space on the ethereal plane.

As to the second paragraph, i'll break this down so you can understand. You as a spell caster use the Class Feature Invoke Duplicity. You then enter a forcecage. Now you want to cast a spell, lets say magic missiles, on a target. The magical energy is available to do so, you can cast the spell BUT you have no way for the spell to reach the illusion, because the illusion is OUTSIDE the forcecage. As an illusion cannot channel magical energies to cast spells, the spell in an intangible form MUST pass through the forcecage to reach the illusion before it appears from the illusion and is cast as normal. Forcecage explicitly stops this. My example of antimagic field was to demonstrate that the illusion cant cast spells by itself.

So if you could explain how the spell/magical energy passes through the forcecage to reach the illusion you may have a point, if not you are wrong and should admit it.

[Renduaz]

Ok for the ethereal plane


Corresponding =/= same so RAW you are on a different but overlapping plane, and as such you do NOT have a line of effect to the prime material plane, only to the corresponding space on the ethereal plane.

As to the second paragraph, i'll break this down so you can understand. You as a spell caster use the Class Feature Invoke Duplicity. You then enter a forcecage. Now you want to cast a spell, lets say magic missiles, on a target. The magical energy is available to do so, you can cast the spell BUT you have no way for the spell to reach the illusion, because the illusion is OUTSIDE the forcecage. As an illusion cannot channel magical energies to cast spells, the spell in an intangible form MUST pass through the forcecage to reach the illusion before it appears from the illusion and is cast as normal. Forcecage explicitly stops this. My example of antimagic field was to demonstrate that the illusion cant cast spells by itself.

So if you could explain how the spell/magical energy passes through the forcecage to reach the illusion you may have a point, if not you are wrong and should admit it.

"Line of effect"? I didn't realize we were pulling rules out of thin air now. All I need to Invoke Duplicity is to be able to see it, and Jeremy Crawford has clarified (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/704487607162408961?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2016%2F04 %2F09%2Ftargeting-spellsclear-path-can-i-target-across-wall-of-force%2F) that even spells like Misty Step which say you only need to be able to see an unoccupied space don't require a clear path to the target at all ( In the sense of physical obstruction ), and my Invoke Duplicity is not even a spell, so it isn't even subject to the targeting rules of spellcasting.


Then you start making up even more rules:

"you have no way for the spell to reach the illusion" - Citation needed number 1, where the hell does anything in Invoke Duplicity say that you need the spell "to reach" the illusion, whatever the **** that means ( Physically? Mentally? WAT? ). All spells automatically, axiomatically emanate from the illusion because that's what the ability does. They don't need to reach it. Anti-magic Field would prevent it simply because you are no longer a spellcaster technically while in it, not because of any fabricated "magical travel reaching", but because you cannot produce any magic at all for it to automatically emanate from the illusion.

"As an illusion cannot channel magical energies to cast spells", Citation desperately needed number 2, Just which WOTC staff member gave you the metamagic behind how the illusion works?

So if you could explain how the spell/magical energy passes through the forcecage - Maybe you want me to explain to you how do I convince Mystra to let me twist the Weave strands in the fabric of reality in order to create magical effects too, if we're already in the process of making **** up? The explanation is very simple - Invoke Duplicity is not even a spell, it only requires sight within 30 feet, therefore it passes through the Forcecage. When you cast a spell while it's active, it's cast as though you were in the illusion's space, and that's it. The spell doesn't need to "reach" the illusion, that's your own strange metamagic invention.

[Luppers]

"Line of effect"? I didn't realize we were pulling rules out of thin air now. All I need to Invoke Duplicity is to be able to see it, and Jeremy Crawford has clarified that even spells like Misty Step which say you only need to be able to see an unoccupied space don't require a clear path to the target at all ( In the sense of physical obstruction ), and my Invoke Duplicity is not even a spell, so it isn't even subject to the targeting rules of spellcasting.


Then you start making up even more rules:

"you have no way for the spell to reach the illusion" - Citation needed number 1, where the hell does anything in Invoke Duplicity say that you need the spell "to reach" the illusion, whatever the **** that means ( Physically? Mentally? WAT? )

"As an illusion cannot channel magical energies to cast spells", Citation desperately needed number 2, Just which WOTC staff member gave you the metamagic behind how the illusion works?

So if you could explain how the spell/magical energy passes through the forcecage - Maybe you want me to explain to you how do I convince Mystra to let me twist the Weave strands in the fabric of reality in order to create magical effects too, if we're already in the process of making **** up? The explanation is very simple - Invoke Duplicity is not even a spell, it only requires sight within 30 feet, therefore it passes through the Forcecage. When you cast a spell while it's active, it's cast as though you were in the illusion's space, and that's it. The spell doesn't need to "reach" the illusion, that's your own whacky metamagic invention.

Ok so "Line of effect" refers to

C l e a r Pa t h t o t h e T a r g e t
To target something, you must have a clear path to it,
so it can’t be behind total cover.
If you place an area o f effect at a point that you can’t
see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you
and that point, the point o f origin comes into being on
the near side o f that obstruction.
As stated in my first post, as clarified by Mike Mearls on sage advice (cant link yet but search "Is a glass window considered a total cover?")

as to point 1: the spell (not invoke duplicity but the spell cast through invoke ducplicty) is explicitly cast by the caster as is noted in the feature ("For the duration, YOU can cast spells ...")

point 2:
When a character casts a spell, he or she expends
a slot o f that spell’s level or higher, effectively “filling”
a slot with the spell.PHB 201
The caster is casting the spell by "filling a slot with the spell" not the illusion.

Point 3: the Forcecage spell says
A prison in the shape o f a box can be up to 10 feet on
a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter
from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into
or out from the area.

So the caster cast the spell, then sends it to the illusion which cast the spell, but wait... the spell EXPLICITLY stops that.

Lets make this simple:
Forcecage argument: The caster inside the forcecage attempts to cast a spell.
"In casting a spell,
a character carefully plucks at the invisible strands of
raw magic suffusing the world" phb "What is a spell?"
RAW the caster inside the forcecage has made the spell inside the forcecage and therefore cannot cast the spell outside the forcecage. You're attempting to argue that a 2nd level class features wording overides the wording of a 7th level spell, so at best there is NO RAW for this interaction without ignoring one or the other effect. The 2 effects are mutually exclusive meaning that this is a case of RAI, in which case i personally doubt that it was intended for a 2nd level feature to be prioritised over the effect of a 7th level spell, but you may disagree. Either way not RAW.

Etherealness argument: As i previously showed, RAW border ethereal =/= prime material plane. the duplicate is on the material plane and the part of etherealness which states "you ignore ALL objects and EFFECTS that aren't on the ethereal plane" makes clear that you cannot interact with the duplicate other than seeing/hearing it which are explicitly allowed by the spell. It only works RAW if you ignore part of the spell.

[Renduaz]

Ok so "Line of effect" refers to

As stated in my first post, as clarified by Mike Mearls on sage advice (cant link yet but search "Is a glass window considered a total cover?")

as to point 1: the spell (not invoke duplicity but the spell cast through invoke ducplicty) is explicitly cast by the caster as is noted in the feature ("For the duration, YOU can cast spells ...")

point 2:PHB 201
The caster is casting the spell by "filling a slot with the spell" not the illusion.

Point 3: the Forcecage spell says

So the caster cast the spell, then sends it to the illusion which cast the spell, but wait... the spell EXPLICITLY stops that.

Lets make this simple:
Forcecage argument: The caster inside the forcecage attempts to cast a spell. phb "What is a spell?"
RAW the caster inside the forcecage has made the spell inside the forcecage and therefore cannot cast the spell outside the forcecage. You're attempting to argue that a 2nd level class features wording overides the wording of a 7th level spell, so at best there is NO RAW for this interaction because ignoring one or the other effect. The 2 effects are mutually exclusive meaning that this is a case of RAI, in which case i personally doubt that it was intended for a 2nd level feature to be prioritised over the effect of a 7th level spell, but you may disagree. Either way not RAW.

Etherealness argument: As i previously showed, RAW border ethereal =/= prime material plane. the duplicate is on the material plane and the part of etherealness which states "you ignore ALL objects and EFFECTS that aren't on the ethereal plane" makes clear that you cannot interact with the duplicate other than seeing/hearing it which are explicitly allowed by the spell. It only works RAW if you ignore part of the spell.

I fail to see anything about your points that prevent it from working. For the last time, stop inventing things out of your ass. Your whole argument relies on "B-b-b-but, you need to SEND the spell to the illusion", where no such game mechanic exists. Spellcasting targeting rules are for targeting something with a spell yourself within range, and those are not even always valid depending on the spell ( As clarified by Crawford whose tweets, by the way, are official rulings. You don't need a clear path for "Misty Step". You don't need a clear path for "Dream". )

I know it's really difficult to you, but let me tell you this one more time - Provide an actual game mechanic citation for having to "send" a spell ( Apparently physically, or however the **** it works in your imagination ) to the illusion first before it can emanate from the illusion's space, or accept what the rules do actually say, which is that all spells you cast, are automatically cast as though YOU were in the illusion's space. PERIOD. No "Sending" ( A metamagic delusion of your own making ). You can't keep wasting my time with your inventions.

Etherealness: The Border Ethereal is not the Prime Material, it is a dimension ( DMG ) which overlaps ( DMG ) with the Prime Material 3-dimensionally ( Etherealness description ), which is how you're still "60 feet away" from what you're seeing. It occupies the same space 3-dimensionally but not 4-dimensionally, that's a fact. That's how you pass through objects while still actually being up the same distance away from them in feet ( 3-dimensionally ) according to the spell. I highly recommend poring over the definition of "Corresponding" and refraining from intervening in things you do not have a good understanding of. Ignore doesn't make it clear at all that you cannot interact with the 3-dimensional space of the Prime Material. The continuation of the sentence makes it clear that your form doesn't interact with objects or effects 3-dimenisonally.

First when we read it, we defer to the definition of "Ignore", which going by the dictionary, doesn't work, since it means "Refuse to acknowledge/pretend something doesn't exist", which is both contradictory to hearing and seeing objects and effects, and furthermore would prevent me from, say, memorizing or thinking about what my eyes see or my ears hear. So we know it's meant to be read in context, and that context is found in the next part of the very same sentence. You could rule that it means so, but that's an interpretation, not RAW, which doesn't align with the context, and also would prove contradictory for a spell like "Sending". It would also be contradictory for a spell like "Wall of Force", which extends out of 3-dimensional Prime Material into the 4th dimensional space of the Border Ethereal.

Can I cast "Disintegrate" on the portion of it which is blocking my way in the Border Ethereal? If you said yes, guess what happens to the portion of the effect which is also at the same time in the Prime Material? It gets dissipated. Oh no, we just interacted with an effect which also exists in the Prime Material.

[Unoriginal]

Wall of Force is one of the effects that are specifically said to affect both the Material and the Ethereal planes

[Luppers]

I fail to see anything about your points that prevent it from working. For the last time, stop inventing things out of your ass. Your whole argument relies on "B-b-b-but, you need to SEND the spell to the illusion", where no such game mechanic exists. Spellcasting targeting rules are for targeting something with a spell yourself within range, and those are not even always valid depending on the spell ( As clarified by Crawford whose tweets, by the way, are official rulings. You don't need a clear path for "Misty Step". You don't need a clear path for "Dream". )

I know it's really difficult to you, but let me tell you this one more time - Provide an actual game mechanic citation for having to "send" a spell ( Apparently physically, or however the **** it works in your terrible imagination ) to the illusion first before it can emanate from the illusion's space, or accept what the rules do actually say, which is that all spells you cast, are automatically cast as though YOU were in the illusion's space. PERIOD. No "Sending" ( A metamagic delusion of your own making ). You can't keep wasting my time with your inventions.

Etherealness: The Border Ethereal is not the Prime Material, it is a dimension ( DMG ) which overlaps ( DMG ) with the Prime Material 3-dimensionally ( Etherealness description ), which is how you're still "60 feet away" from what you're seeing. It occupies the same space 3-dimensionally but not 4-dimensionally, that's a fact. That's how you pass through objects while still actually being up the same distance away from them in feet ( 3-dimensionally ) according to the spell. I highly recommend poring over the definition of "Corresponding" and refraining from intervening in things you do not have a good understanding of. Ignore doesn't make it clear at all that you cannot interact with the 3-dimensional space of the Prime Material. The continuation of the sentence makes it clear that your form doesn't interact with objects or effects 3-dimenisonally.

First when we read it, we defer to the definition of "Ignore", which going by the dictionary, doesn't work, since it means "Refuse to acknowledge/pretend something doesn't exist", which is both contradictory to hearing and seeing objects and effects, and furthermore would prevent me from, say, memorizing or thinking about what my eyes see or my ears hear. So we know it's meant to be read in context, and that context is found in the next part of the very same sentence. You could rule that it means so, but that's an interpretation, not RAW, which doesn't align with the context, and also would prove contradictory for a spell like "Sending". It would also be contradictory for a spell like "Wall of Force", which extends out of 3-dimensional Prime Material into the 4th dimensional space of the Border Ethereal.

Can I cast "Disintegrate" on the portion of it which is blocking my way in the Border Ethereal? If you said yes, guess what happens to the portion of the effect which is also at the same time in the Prime Material? It gets dissipated. Oh no, we just interacted with an effect which also exists in the Prime Material.

Ok so therefore by your definitions the Etherealness spell doesn't work at all RAW since its contradictory. Since you have stated that the dictionary definition of ignore doesn't work then no use of the spell works RAW since you need to ignore at least part of the spell. You are arguing it works according to your interpretation. As for RAI, it seems to me that it was not intended to be used as you are suggesting, but that's up to interpretation.

Now onto the "clarification" by Crawford, as i wrote before check sage advice for "Is a glass window considered a total cover?" (Still can't post links yet) where he clarifies you CAN'T cast through glass. These are clearly contradictory except one is for a specific spell (misty step) and one is a general effect. Read the spellcasting section and you'll see the specific rule(that I've pointed out repeatedly and you continue to ignore).

On your last point,
While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and
be affected by other creatures on that plane. Creatures
that aren't on the Ethereal Plane can’t perceive you and
can’t interact with you, unless a special ability or magic
has given them the ability to do so.
A:wall of force is not a creature and B:since it exists on both material and ethereal, counts as a special magic allowing the interaction.

Now back onto forcecage, ignoring how the spell reaches the duplicate, you the caster are casting the spell. Forcecage explicitly prevents spells entering/leaving the area. the spell can't leave the area. Thats RAW. The duplicate allows you to cast spells "as though" you were in its space, not from its space. You are still in a forcecage.
What part of that, by RAW, allows you to ignore part of the spell?

Btw, congratulations on disproving your own theory by proving the spell(etherealness) is incompatible with RAW, at least according to your logic.

Edit. Shadow-monked on the wall of force XD

[Unoriginal]

keithcurtis: Do Magic Missile and Eldritch blast, which do force dmg., affect creatures on the ethereal plane, if they can be perceived?

Jeremy Crawford : No general rule causes force damage to pass from one plane of existence to another.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/20/do-magic-missile-and-eldritch-blast-affect-creatures-on-the-ethereal-plane/

It implies that damages cannot pass from one plane to another, at least, even without counting the "cannot interact with" rule.

[Luppers]

It implies that damages cannot pass from one plane to another, at least, even without counting the "cannot interact with" rule.

I like you :D

[Renduaz]

Ok so therefore by your definitions the Etherealness spell doesn't work at all RAW since its contradictory. Since you have stated that the dictionary definition of ignore doesn't work then no use of the spell works RAW since you need to ignore at least part of the spell. You are arguing it works according to your interpretation. As for RAI, it seems to me that it was not intended to be used as you are suggesting, but that's up to interpretation.

Now onto the "clarification" by Crawford, as i wrote before check sage advice for "Is a glass window considered a total cover?" (Still can't post links yet) where he clarifies you CAN'T cast through glass. These are clearly contradictory except one is for a specific spell (misty step) and one is a general effect. Read the spellcasting section and you'll see the specific rule(that I've pointed out repeatedly and you continue to ignore).

On your last point,
A:wall of force is not a creature and B:since it exists on both material and ethereal, counts as a special magic allowing the interaction.

Now back onto forcecage, ignoring how the spell reaches the duplicate, you the caster are casting the spell. Forcecage explicitly prevents spells entering/leaving the area. the spell can't leave the area. Thats RAW. The duplicate allows you to cast spells "as though" you were in its space, not from its space. You are still in a forcecage.
What part of that, by RAW, allows you to ignore part of the spell?

Btw, congratulations on disproving your own theory by proving the spell(etherealness) is incompatible with RAW, at least according to your logic.

It does work by RAW because first of all, the "Ignore" part is just a single restriction, and secondly, we read the whole sentence as written which states "You ignore, allowing you to pass through objects...". As for your clear path bull****, it hardly even matters, as I've just told you in the last post. Invoke Duplicity is not a spell, and all spells which I do cast, are cast as though I was in the illusion's space, without any fake imaginary "sending" requirements. And on my last point, how the **** is it related that it's not a creature? Your quoted the "ignore objects and effects" line, wall of force is an effect. And now suddenly you decide what counts as special magic, are you? Even though it would be paradoxical for it to both be impossible to "interact" ( In the manner which you decided, too ) with effects on the Prime Material, yet dissipate that effect which also exists on the Prime Material at the same time. Which is why your interpretation is worthless.

Yes, I am the caster. What Forcecage does, if you could so much as have a shred of reading comprehension, is "creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into or out from the area.", my spells don't need to pass through that solid barrier, and my spells aren't cast out of the area through the barrier ( You can still cast spells inside the Forcecage, I.E teleportation ), so I don't see what your problem is.

>The duplicate allows you to cast spells "as though" you were in its space, not from its space.

Holy ****..you are.. That's the same ****ing thing. Are you not fluent in English? If I cast the spell as though I were in it's space, it's being cast from it's space, the same as if I myself was standing there and casting it from that location. And before you, in your ignorance, ask about an Anti-Magic Field, Anti-Magic would break my concentration on maintaining the magical effect of Invoke Duplicity itself, as a Channel Divinity ability, while a Forcecage doesn't. Just what the heck are you trying to say? I'm honestly getting sick of prolonging this conversation with someone who arrogantly insists on pretending to know what he's saying when he clearly can't just to justify his first post. Just let it go already, when it comes to the Forcecage at least, nobody else in the thread except for you misunderstands it so much.

And Etherealness is not incompatible with RAW, since regardless, that only a single restriction in the spell. Now that restriction is incompatible with the dictionary definition of "Ignore", unless context is provided for how they linguistically apply "Ignore", and they did give context in the very same sentence - "You ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane, allowing you to move through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from."

[Luppers]

It does work by RAW because first of all, the "Ignore" part is just a single restriction, and secondly, we read the whole sentence as written which states "You ignore, allowing you to pass through objects...". As for your clear path bull****, it hardly even matters, as I've just told you in the last post. Invoke Duplicity is not a spell, and all spells which I do cast, are cast as though I was in the illusion's space, without any fake imaginary "sending" requirements. And on my last point, how the **** is it related that it's not a creature? Your quoted the "ignore objects and effects" line, wall of force is an effect. And now suddenly you decide what counts as special magic, are you? Even though it would be paradoxical for it to both be impossible to "interact" ( In the manner which you decided, too ) with effects on the Prime Material, yet dissipate that effect which also exists on the Prime Material at the same time. Which is why your interpretation is worthless.

Yes, I am the caster. What Forcecage does, if you could so much as have a shred of reading comprehension, is "creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into or out from the area.", my spells don't need to pass through that solid barrier, and my spells aren't cast out of the area through the barrier ( You can still cast spells inside the Forcecage, I.E teleportation ), so I don't see what your problem is.

>The duplicate allows you to cast spells "as though" you were in its space, not from its space.

Holy ****..you are.. That's the same ****ing thing. Are you not fluent in English? If I cast the spell as though I were in it's space, it's being cast from it's space, the same as if I myself was standing there and casting it from that location. And before you, in your ignorance, ask about an Anti-Magic Field, Anti-Magic would break my concentration on maintaining the magical effect of Invoke Duplicity itself, as a Channel Divinity ability, while a Forcecage doesn't. Just what the heck are you trying to say? I'm honestly getting sick of prolonging this conversation with someone who arrogantly insists on pretending to know what he's saying out of ego. Just let it go already, when it comes to the Forcecage at least, nobody else in the thread except for you misunderstands it so much.

And Etherealness is not incompatible with RAW, since regardless, that only a single restriction in the spell. Now that restriction is incompatible with the dictionary definition of "Ignore", unless context is provided for how they linguistically apply "Ignore", and they did give context in the very same sentence - "You ignore all objects and effects that aren't on the Ethereal Plane, allowing you to move through objects you perceive on the plane you originated from."

Ok, "as though" =/= from, if you cast the spells "from" the duplicates location it would say that. Basic reading skills applied :smallwink:

On the etherealness, you've made it abundantly clear that part of the spell (the ignore part) doesn't work with the seeing/hearing (see YOUR previous posts). If part of the spell can't work by RAW then how can the spell as a whole work? It can't. Or the spell in context means you ignore all objects and effects on the plane you originated from, apart from sight and sound, and that doesn't effect the part where you can only affect creatures on the ethereal plane. Which means the duplicate is irrelevant since you can't affect creatures on the prime material plane, where the duplicate is.

At no point have i said you can't cast spells while in the forcecage, only that they can't leave the forcecage.

Your arguments center around: this works as long as you change the wording of the abilities ,such as "as though" = "from", or ignoring part of the spells/abilities used. Is it still RAW if you change the written part to fit your argument?


I'm honestly getting sick of prolonging this conversation with someone who arrogantly insists on pretending to know what he's saying out of ego.
hahahahaaaa, wait are you being serious? :biggrin: Hmm, maybe, just maybe, this could be applied to you.

Btw good for you for finally stopping arguing against a rule written in the book and supported by Crawford. (the rule being that you need a clear path to cast a spell)

But hey, if you want to read the feature as "from" instead of "as though", ignore multiple parts of spells and certain rules and say its RAW go ahead, just don't get mad when people disagree with you. If you didn't want people giving you feedback and pointing out possible mistakes(or the fact that arguably RAW these don't work), maybe you shouldn't have posted it to a forum

[Renduaz]

Ok, "as though" =/= from, if you cast the spells "from" the duplicates location it would say that. Basic reading skills applied :smallwink:

On the etherealness, you've made it abundantly clear that part of the spell (the ignore part) doesn't work with the seeing/hearing (see YOUR previous posts). If part of the spell can't work by RAW then how can the spell as a whole work? It can't. Or the spell in context means you ignore all objects and effects on the plane you originated from, apart from sight and sound, and that doesn't effect the part where you can only affect creatures on the ethereal plane. Which means the duplicate is irrelevant since you can't affect creatures on the prime material plane, where the duplicate is.

At no point have i said you can't cast spells while in the forcecage, only that they can't leave the forcecage.

Your arguments center around: this works as long as you change the wording of the abilities ,such as "as though" = "from", or ignoring part of the spells/abilities used. Is it still RAW if you change the written part to fit your argument?


hahahahaaaa, wait are you being serious? :biggrin: Hmm, maybe, just maybe, this could be applied to you.

Btw good for you for finally stopping arguing against a rule written in the book and supported by Crawford. (the rule being that you need a clear path to cast a spell)

But hey, if you want to read the feature as "from" instead of "as though", ignore multiple parts of spells and certain rules and say its RAW go ahead, just don't get mad when people disagree with you. If you didn't want people giving you feedback and pointing out possible mistakes(or the fact that arguably RAW these don't work), maybe you shouldn't have posted it to a forum

Oh boy, page 10, here we come. "You cast a spell as though you were in the illusion's space" = "You cast the spell as though it was cast from the illusion's space", learn English please if you don't mind, before making accounts to argue about things.

I've made it abundantly clear that it doesn't work with the dictionary definition along with the rest of the spell, yes, since I acknowledge the objects and effects I see and hear on the Prime Material. I've already explained to you that "Ignore" is written in context, not by the dictionary definition, and that context is your physical form ignoring objects and effects 3-dimensionally. It wouldn't be possible to "Ignore" ( Per dictionary definition ) except for sight and sound, since then you wouldn't be able to pay any heed to or acknowledge what you're seeing and hearing, the definition of "Ignore" is in context -It means "Your form ignores 3-dimensionally".

As has already been discussed in this thread a thousand times, you're not affecting creatures by creating the illusion, except mentally and in sight ( Which the spell makes clear, just like "You can't be affected by creatures outside the Border Ethereal" either, yet you can still be affected by seeing them, hearing them, and being mentally affected by what you see and hear, including if they can see you and adjust their behavior accordingly, that sight is excepted. ), and all spells which do affect creatures are cast "As though YOU, YOU, YOU ( Get it, Luppers Buppers? ) were in the illuson's space", and if you were in the Illusion's space, you would be on the prime Material, from which spells CAN affect creatures.

And I never argued it, I argued against your gigantic stupidity in understanding how Forececage and Invoke Duplicity work, although regardless, Crawford (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/704487607162408961?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2016%2F04 %2F09%2Ftargeting-spellsclear-path-can-i-target-across-wall-of-force%2F) did rule that YOU DON'T need a clear path to the target with certain spells which state that you only need to see an unoccupied space. Which "Invoke Duplicity" does say and it's not even a ****ing spell on top of that.

It's not "people", dude. Nobody except you has managed to fail at basic English or misread Forcecage so blatantly. Nobody. Even all those who protested Etherealness, agreed that Invoke Duplicity would work from the Forcecage and be able to cast spells. Please explain to us all the difference between a spell being cast as though someone cast it from that space and a spell being cast from that space, go ahead, champ. I know your brain will never be able to grasp basic English, so grasp this - Nobody except you has argued against the Forcecage and the spells, even those who argued against Etherealness. These were people who aren't fans of me, and even THEY realize how it works. You're the only one who doesn't.

[Luppers]

Oh boy, page 10, here we come. "You cast a spell as though you were in the illusion's space" = "You cast the spell as though it was cast from the illusion's space", learn English please if you don't mind, before making accounts to argue about things.

I've made it abundantly clear that it doesn't work with the dictionary definition along with the rest of the spell, yes, since I acknowledge the objects and effects I see and hear on the Prime Material. I've already explained to you that "Ignore" is written in context, not by the dictionary definition, and that context is your physical form ignoring objects and effects 3-dimensionally. It wouldn't be possible to "Ignore" ( Per dictionary definition ) except for sight and sound, since then you wouldn't be able to pay any heed to or acknowledge what you're seeing and hearing, the definition of "Ignore" is in context -It means "Your form ignores 3-dimensionally".

As has already been discussed in this thread a thousand times, you're not affecting creatures by creating the illusion, except mentally and in sight ( Which the spell makes clear, just like "You can't be affected by creatures outside the Border Ethereal" either, yet you can still be affected by seeing them, hearing them, and being mentally affected by what you see and hear, including if they can see you and adjust their behavior accordingly, that sight is excepted. ), and all spells which do affect creatures are cast "As though YOU, YOU, YOU ( Get it, Luppers Buppers? ) were in the illuson's space", and if you were in the Illusion's space, you would be on the prime Material, from which spells CAN affect creatures.

And I never argued it, I argued against your gigantic stupidity in understanding how Forececage and Invoke Duplicity work, although regardless, Crawford did rule that YOU DON'T need a clear path to the target with certain spells which state that you only need to see an unoccupied space. Which "Invoke Duplicity" does say and it's not even a ****ing spell on top of that.

It's not "people", dude. Nobody except you has managed to fail at basic English or misread Forcecage so blatantly. Nobody. Even all those who protested Etherealness, agreed that Invoke Duplicity would work from the Forcecage and be able to cast spells. Please explain to us all the difference between a spell being cast as though someone cast it from that space and a spell being cast from that space, go ahead, champ.

So as i said, you are rewording Invoke duplicity, to make it work, got it!

You are still ignoring the part of etherealness which states you can't affect creatures (just because its through the duplicate doesn't mean you aren't doing it,i.e "I didn't kill the man, it was the gun"), have fun with that.

Crawford has stated Misty Step can be cast through full cover, and that other spells require a clear path, get him to tweet that you don't need a clear path for this spell and it will be applicable, until then the rule (and yes it is a rule, as I've pointed out repeatedly) stands.

So others haven't argued about Forcecage is your argument it works or that my argument is invalid? Sound logic. Also i checked, one person agreed that forcecage seemed to worked. Most just saw it as an oversight, personally i don't think the part where you can cast spells out of the cage works. you could move the duplicate around but that's irrelevant to the discussion.

Want me to agree its RAW, don't try to change whats written.

And btw, swearing and giving odd nicknames (Luppers Buppers? was that meant to be clever?) does not make a good argument, it makes you seem childish

[Mellack]

Renduaz, a word of advice. When you insult people it weakens your argument. Debate the points, not the person. Others have generally been respectful of you in this thread.

[Renduaz]

So as i said, you are rewording Invoke duplicity, to make it work, got it!

You are still ignoring the part of etherealness which states you can't affect creatures (just because its through the duplicate doesn't mean you aren't doing it,i.e "I didn't kill the man, it was the gun"), have fun with that.

Crawford has stated Misty Step can be cast through full cover, and that other spells require a clear path, get him to tweet that you don't need a clear path for this spell and it will be applicable, until then the rule (and yes it is a rule, as I've pointed out repeatedly) stands.

So others haven't argued about Forcecage is your argument it works or that my argument is invalid? Sound logic. Also i checked, one person agreed that forcecage seemed to worked. Most just saw it as an oversight, personally i don't think the part where you can cast spells out of the cage works. you could move the duplicate around but that's irrelevant to the discussion.

Want me to agree its RAW, don't try to change whats written.

And btw, swearing and giving odd nicknames (Luppers Buppers? was that meant to be clever?) does not make a good argument, it makes you seem childish

*Facepalm* - Nobody's re-wording Invoke Duplicity. Do you know what a "synonym" is? Invoke Duplicity works from a Forcecage as it is, you cast spells "as though you were in the illusion's space". Let's break it down for you, since linguistics isn't your strong suit:

As though = The same as if, as if things were in a certain way

You were in the illusion's space = The Illusion unleashes the spell just the same as if you, yourself, rather than the illusion, were standing where the illusion is, and casting the spell from there.

Secondly, Crawford stated you need a clear path "Unless stated otherwise by the spell", and when asked by someone about Misty Step which states that you need to see an unoccupied space, confirmed that means it doesn't need a clear path. Thirdly, for the millionth time, Invoke Duplicity is not even a spell

Your argument is invalid because you can't understand words in the English language and unable to read both ability and spell descriptions. The fact that people who have total antipathy for me are also able to comprehend how Forcecage, Invoke Duplicity and RAW works and that there is nothing to argue against only serves to demonstrate just how obvious it is. I already made the argument, which I'm apparently going to have to do for 100 more posts, hence the increasing irritation. No, it was not meant to be clever, but to hopefully catch your attention to what Invoke Duplicity actually says.


Renduaz, a word of advice. When you insult people it weakens your argument. Debate the points, not the person. Others have generally been respectful of you in this thread.

And there have been no insults so far except for a request for someone who arrogantly attempts to debunk something ( Making an account just to show why it doesn't work ), yet doesn't seem to be able to read English, to educate himself in English.


http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/20/do-magic-missile-and-eldritch-blast-affect-creatures-on-the-ethereal-plane/

It implies that damages cannot pass from one plane to another, at least, even without counting the "cannot interact with" rule.

Of course it doesn't. That would require you to affect a creature from Border Ethereal space. Hence why you need an illusion in place to cast damage spells "As though you were in the Illusion's space", so they won't pass from one plane to another, rather from the Illusion on the Prime Material to a creature on the Prime Material.

[ThePolarBear]

Crawford (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/704487607162408961?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2016%2F04 %2F09%2Ftargeting-spellsclear-path-can-i-target-across-wall-of-force%2F) did rule that YOU DON'T need a clear path to the target with certain spells which state that you only need to see an unoccupied space.

Context. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/09/targeting-spellsclear-path-can-i-target-across-wall-of-force/) You can cast Misty Step because the range is Self. Not because you can see a place. The target is readily availlable.

[Renduaz]

Context. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/09/targeting-spellsclear-path-can-i-target-across-wall-of-force/) You can cast Misty Step because the range is Self. Not because you can see a place. The target is readily availlable.

Exactly, context. "Clear path" doesn't apply depending on range, if your target is within range. The Prime Material is within range of me, 30 feet ( 3-dimensional measurement unit, already discussed and confirmed as the distance between you and what you see in "Etherealness", explicitly according to the spell description ), and there's neither physical obstruction nor concealment between me and the space I can see within range.

[Luppers]

*Facepalm* - Nobody's re-wording Invoke Duplicity. Do you know what a "synonym" is? Invoke Duplicity works from a Forcecage as it is, you cast spells "as though you were in the illusion's space". Let's break it down for you, since linguistics isn't your strong suit:

As though = The same as if, as if things were in a certain way

You were in the illusion's space = The Illusion unleashes the spell just the same as if you, yourself, rather than the illusion, were standing were the illusion is, and casting the spell from there.

Secondly, Crawford stated you need a clear path "Unless stated otherwise by the spell", and when asked by someone about Misty Step which states that you need to see an unoccupied space, confirmed that means it doesn't need a clear path. Thirdly, for the millionth time, Invoke Duplicity is not even a spell

Your argument is invalid because you can't understand words in the English language and unable to read both ability and spell descriptions. The fact that people who have total antipathy for me are also able to comprehend how Forcecage, Invoke Duplicity and RAW works and that there is nothing to argue against only serves to demonstrate just how obvious it is. I already made the argument, which I'm apparently going to have to do for 100 more posts, hence the increasing irritation. No, it was not meant to be clever, but to hopefully catch your attention to what Invoke Duplicity actually says.

Its almost as if you want to ignore rules that don't fit your argument. This (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/30/is-a-glass-window-considered-a-total-cover/) can be used to show that even with sight, and within range, you need a clear path, your link only shows a specific exception to the rule.

I am reading "as though" to indicate that it appears to be cast from the duplicate rather than it is cast from the duplicate, which would mean the caster would be casting the spell from the inside to the outside of the cage. Given the intention of the ability is to deceive and misdirect, not bypass defences.

If Invoke Duplicate said you cast the spell FROM the illusions space (easier and quicker to type than "as though") you might have a point. HOWEVER reading the effect clearly states this is not the case.

Repeatedly saying "as though" = "as if" = "from" doesn't show some brilliant grasp of the English language. Since what is written ("as though") is open to interpretation, as i have shown, the RAW is at best unclear. Its almost as though you don't want to read my argument. If you wish to ignore (see previous post for definition) my arguments, or disagree with them, go for it.

Edit. Removed incorrect sentence regarding its effect on spells(can change range relative to caster)

[ThePolarBear]

Exactly, context. "Clear path" doesn't apply depending on range, if your target is within range. The Prime Material is within range of me, 30 feet ( 3-dimensional measurement unit, already discussed and confirmed as the distance between you and what you see in "Etherealness", explicitly according to the spell description ), and there's neither physical obstruction nor concealment between me and the space I can see within range.

Sorry, did i say something about that? Because it does not appear to me that i even mentioned that. I simply corrected one of your statements that was incorrect. Do not put words into my mouth. Err... fingers.

[Luppers]

Exactly, context. "Clear path" doesn't apply depending on range, if your target is within range. The Prime Material is within range of me, 30 feet ( 3-dimensional measurement unit, already discussed and confirmed as the distance between you and what you see in "Etherealness", explicitly according to the spell description ), and there's neither physical obstruction nor concealment between me and the space I can see within range.

And yet you ignore the part saying "While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane."

[Unoriginal]

Technically he's not ignoring it, he just consider that it means "you cannot affect creatures on the Material Plane because the spell doesn't authorize this interaction" rather than "you cannot ffect creatures on the Material Plane because you are in a different plane of existence than they are"

Also, since we're at the point were we're arguing basic definition:


Elizabeth Belmont: Are creatures in the material plane visible to creatures in the border ethereal?

Christopher Perkins: Yes. Being in the Border Ethereal is sort of like being Patrick Swayze's character in GHOST, except you can't move stuff.

[Luppers]

Tbf, if he tried to argue this was RAI rather than RAW i might agree, that RAI it MIGHT work, DM dependent of course.

Arguing its RAW, and therefore implying it should be accepted at most games, while ignoring the spell explicitly forbidding, or attempting to reword a feature, it is just silly.

[Vogonjeltz]

Has anybody ever thought about how incredibly powerful the Trickery Cleric's "Invoke Duplicity" ability is? If someone multiclassed as a 2nd level Trickery Cleric/18th level Bard/Wizard and used the Invoke Duplicity ability in addition to something like Forcecage, or potentially even just a Cleric using Etherealness without multiclass, you could become almost utterly invincible for 1 minute ( 10 rounds) or even 3 minutes as a full-fledged Cleric.

First of all, let us review the properties of the Trickery Cleric's "Invoke Duplicity" - Infinitely more useful than even the 7th-level spell "Project Image", it allows you to cast spells "as though you were in the illusion's space", but you must use your own senses. More importantly, unlike "Project Image" for example, nothing in the ability indicates that this illusion is able to take any damage whatsoever or be dispersed by it. Furthermore, since you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to a space you can see, and since it's an illusion, nothing is able to trap the illusion either. It's an immaterial illusion, after all. Nothing indicates that the illusion will not remain in an unsupported space as well like any other illusion, if the ground were to fall beneath it for example. Lastly, it's even arguable whether the illusion could be dispelled by "Dispel magic", which states you can choose a magical effect within range ( And the illusion is a magical effect ), but that what it actually does is - "Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a successful check, the spell ends". , yet "Invoke Duplicity" is not a spell, even though it's a magical effect channeled directly from the Cleric's deity. It doesn't have any spell level. You could pretend it's a 2nd level spell since it's a 2nd level ability if you want, but would that make the Cleric's "Improved Duplicity" a 17th level spell? I don't think Dispel Magic would even work on the illusion by RAW. The only thing which could reliably destroy the "Invoke Duplicity" illusion is the Antimagic Field which explicitly negates all magical effects as well as spells ( And I don't think "Channel Divinity" counts as being created by a deity )

Sadly, the drawback is that you have to forfeit you concentration for the duration of the ability ( Which also prevented me from trying long and hard to cheese it at lower levels ), although that barely manages to detract from the sheer power it offers in combination with other magical effect, possibly even being one of the most powerful combinations in the game at higher levels. Let's look at the Forcecage spell when cast on yourself, if you were to multiclass as Cleric 2/Wizard 18 for example. In order to avoid confusion, let's highlight a few of the aspects of the spell:

So, after 3 rounds of combat you can stop taking damage and finally begin casting spells that might end the combat? That is one heck of a sacrifice to maybe not even accomplish anything meaningful.

I'm not seeing the exploitative nature of this. You might be dead before you can even get this off the ground, and it requires two 7th level spell slots!
(a minimum of 13th level) to enable it for one out of eight combats in the day. Along with a positively bankrupting 1500gp in material goods (at that level we're looking at several hoards worth of value getting blown in one spell).

Furthermore, 2/3 steps are vulnerable to counterspelling, something the Cleric themselves can't even do. This means only the Wizard multiclass could plausibly get this off against an enemy Spellcaster who has access to Counterspell.

[Renduaz]

Its almost as if you want to ignore rules that don't fit your argument. This (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/30/is-a-glass-window-considered-a-total-cover/) can be used to show that even with sight, and within range, you need a clear path, your link only shows a specific exception to the rule.

I am reading "as though" to indicate that it appears to be cast from the duplicate rather than it is cast from the duplicate, which would mean the caster would be casting the spell from the inside to the outside of the cage. Given the intention of the ability is to deceive and misdirect, rather than alter any part of the spell or its interactions, I believe I am correct.

If Invoke Duplicate said you cast the spell FROM the illusions space (easier and quicker to type than "as though") you might have a point. HOWEVER reading the effect clearly states this is not the case.

Repeatedly saying "as though" = "as if" = "from" doesn't show some brilliant grasp of the English language. Since what is written ("as though") is open to interpretation, as i have shown, the RAW is at best unclear. Its almost as though you don't want to read my argument. If you wish to ignore (see previous post for definition) my arguments, or disagree with them, go for it.

Ignoring rules is exactly what you're doing. And yeah, you can't cast spells which don't have a clear path ( Such as being physically obstructed ) unless a spell states otherwise. What about it? I've got a clear path with Etherealness and Invoke Duplicity, no physical obstructions such as a glass window, no concealment, no feet distance further than 30.

>I am reading "as though" to indicate that it appears to be cast from the duplicate rather than it is cast from the duplicate, which would mean the caster would be casting the spell from the inside to the outside of the cage

Yeah, that's because you are terrible at English and enjoy making things up. If it wanted to say "appears", it would've said so. What it actually says is "YOU cast spells as though YOU WERE in the illusion's space", not "You cast spells from where you are but it just appears like it's coming from the illusion", otherwise the ability wouldn't work when you send your illusion more than 60 feet away and cast a spell with a range of 60 feet at someone through it.

>If Invoke Duplicate said you cast the spell FROM the illusions space (easier and quicker to type than "as though") you might have a point.

It's synonymous. It doesn't matter. "As though you were there" means as though you were there. Please pull your brain out of the sand. And if it said "You cast spells and they appear to come from the Illusion's space" ( Easier and quicker to type ), you might actually have a point yourself.

I'm definitely going to ignore all of your arguments from now on because you're just beyond debate. You don't understand English and you make stuff up. "You cast spells as though YOU WERE in the Illusion's space" =/= "You cast spells from your own space and it just appears like they came from the illusion's space". Since you can't understand something so simple and can't resist making things up, I'm going to respond to everyone except you from now on, I don't intend to drag this on to page 10 just because of that.

[Luppers]

Ignoring rules is exactly what you're doing. And yeah, you can't cast spells which don't have a clear path ( Such as being physically obstructed ) unless a spell states otherwise. What about it? I've got a clear path with Etherealness and Invoke Duplicity, no physical obstructions such as a glass window, no concealment, no feet distance further than 30.

>I am reading "as though" to indicate that it appears to be cast from the duplicate rather than it is cast from the duplicate, which would mean the caster would be casting the spell from the inside to the outside of the cage

Yeah, that's because you are terrible at English and enjoy making things up. If it wanted to say "appears", it would've said so. What it actually says is "You cast spells as though YOU were in the illusion's space, not "You cast spells from where you are but it just appears like it's coming from the illusion", otherwise the ability wouldn't work when you send your illusion more than 60 feet away and cast a spell with a range of 60 feet at someone through it.

>If Invoke Duplicate said you cast the spell FROM the illusions space (easier and quicker to type than "as though") you might have a point.

It's synonymous. It doesn't matter. "As though you were there" means as though you were there. Please pull your brain out of your ass. And if it said "You cast spells and they appear to come form the Illusion's space" ( Easier and quicker to type ), you might actually have a point yourself.

I'm definitely going to ignore all of your arguments from now on because you're just beyond debate. You don't understand English and you make stuff up. "You cast spells as though YOU WERE in the Illusion's space" =/= "You cast spells from your own space and it just appears like they came from the illusion's space". Since you can't understand something so simple and can't resist making things up, I'm going to respond to everyone except you from now on, I don't intend to drag this on to page 10 just because of that.

I don't think you know what a synonym is. Check here (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/as%20though) and "from" doesn't appear on the list, but some good synonyms are, apparently or supposedly,i.e the spell was supposedly cast from the duplicate.

As to "unless a spell states otherwise." where does it state otherwise in any of your examples?

and finally, the etherealness spell still explicitly states you can't affect creatures on the prime material plane(assuming that was your origin) so combining it with Invoke Duplicity just means you are out of the battle for 10 rounds, not affecting the enemy at all.

Ignore me if you wish, doesn't make you right:smallwink:

[Renduaz]

Sorry, did i say something about that? Because it does not appear to me that i even mentioned that. I simply corrected one of your statements that was incorrect. Do not put words into my mouth. Err... fingers.

Very well.


And yet you ignore the part saying "While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane."

I'm not.


So, after 3 rounds of combat you can stop taking damage and finally begin casting spells that might end the combat? That is one heck of a sacrifice to maybe not even accomplish anything meaningful.

I'm not seeing the exploitative nature of this. You might be dead before you can even get this off the ground, and it requires two 7th level spell slots!
(a minimum of 13th level) to enable it for one out of eight combats in the day. Along with a positively bankrupting 1500gp in material goods (at that level we're looking at several hoards worth of value getting blown in one spell).

Furthermore, 2/3 steps are vulnerable to counterspelling, something the Cleric themselves can't even do. This means only the Wizard multiclass could plausibly get this off against an enemy Spellcaster who has access to Counterspell.

No, you stop taking damage in the first round of combat since it's preferable to cast Forcecage first. You Channel Divinity as an action in the second round of combat, and beginning from the third round, you have 10 more rounds of the invincibility. Two 7th level spells? Are you talking about Etherealness? It's either or, not both. Also, Forcecage doesn't consume the materials. It seems like you don't understand how valuable material components and spellcasting works. A spell doesn't consume the material unless the description says it does. Here, enjoy
(http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-spellcasting)

And yes, the Forcecage is vulnerable to a counterspell, with a DC 17 unless they're using 7th level counterspell, if they know what I'm casting, and if for some reason they decide it's worth burning to prevent me from what to them seems like me locking myself in a box for the rest of the fight.


I don't think you know what a synonym is. Check here (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/as%20though) and "from" doesn't appear on the list, but some good synonyms are, apparently or supposedly,i.e the spell was supposedly cast from the duplicate.

*Faceplam*. Yeah, it doesn't appear as a synonym in the dictionary since it's contextually embedded in a sentence, therefore you think the sentence cannot be synonymous to another sentence. I forgot that someone like you with such a ****ty reading comprehension wouldn't be able to grasp that either. The fact you're suggesting it would mean the spell was "supposedly" cast exemplifies the very nature of your illiteracy. Dictionary definitions are multiple, depending on context. Obviously, the spell is not "supposedly" cast.



As to "unless a spell states otherwise." where does it state otherwise in any of your examples?

Why would it need to? I already have clear paths to my targets in both examples.


and finally, the etherealness spell still explicitly states you can't affect creatures on the prime material plane(assuming that was your origin) so combining it with Invoke Duplicity just means you are out of the battle for 10 rounds, not affecting the enemy at all.

Go back to the beginning and read everything we talked about. I think you might have Alzheimer's.


Ignore me if you wish, doesn't make you right:smallwink:

I will. It doesn't make me right, the fact that I can read properly while you can't makes me right. It also means talking with you is a major waste of time and patience.

[JNAProductions]

Just... General advice, Renduaz. Insulting other people and acting like a tool doesn't make people any more inclined to believe you. Being polite and nice will get you a lot further.

[Luppers]

Very well.



I'm not.



No, you stop taking damage in the first round of combat since it's preferable to cast Forcecage first. You Channel Divinity as an action in the second round of combat, and beginning from the third round, you have 10 more rounds of the invincibility. Two 7th level spells? Are you talking about Etherealness? It's either or, not both. Also, Forcecage doesn't consume the materials. It seems like you don't understand how valuable material components and spellcasting works. A spell doesn't consume the material unless the description says it does. Here, enjoy
(http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-spellcasting)

And yes, the Forcecage is vulnerable to a counterspell, with a DC 17 unless they're using 7th level counterspell, if they know what I'm casting, and if for some reason they decide it's worth burning to prevent me from what to them seems like me locking myself in a box for the rest of the fight.



*Faceplam*. Yeah, it doesn't appear as a synonym in the dictionary since it's contextually embedded in a sentence, therefore you think the sentence cannot be synonymous to another sentence. I forgot that someone like you with such a ****ty reading comprehension wouldn't be able to grasp that either. The fact you're suggesting it would mean the spell was "supposedly" cast exemplifies the very nature of your illiteracy. Dictionary definitions are multiple, depending on context. Obviously, the spell is not "supposedly" cast.




Why would it need to? I already have clear paths to my targets in both examples.



Go back to the beginning and read everything we talked about. I think you might have Alzheimer's.



I will. It doesn't make me right, the fact that I can read properly while you can't makes me right. It also means talking with you is a major waste of time and patience.

So a provide me with a source that your "synonyms" are correct. Ignoring a valid source supporting my argument is not helping you, especially while ignoring valid synonyms while willfully misinterpreting me, the spell is SUPPOSEDLY cast by the decoy, not simply supposedly cast.

And RAW the spell etherealness STILL prevents you affecting the original plane. RAI maybe, RAW nope, there is no part of invoke duplicate that removes the restriction of etherealness on affecting the original plane. Even allowing it to go from the duplicate, YOU are casting the spell, and you are unable to affect the original plane.

[Renduaz]

Just... General advice, Renduaz. Insulting other people and acting like a tool doesn't make people any more inclined to believe you. Being polite and nice will get you a lot further.

Nobody's been insulted except for whomever barges in to confidently disparage something without knowing English or going over the descriptions he's addressing in full and then asked to learn English and stop making things up.


So a provide me with a source that your "synonyms" are correct. Ignoring a valid source supporting my argument is not helping you, especially while ignoring valid synonyms while willfully misinterpreting me, the spell is SUPPOSEDLY cast by the decoy, not simply supposedly cast.

The source is reading comprehension. "As though" (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/as%20though), synonymous to "As if" (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/as%2Bif) by definition, "as it would be if" - You cast the spells as it would be ( As they would be cast ) if you were in the illusion's space. Not you cast the spells from your own space, and it only visually appears as though they were cast from the illusion's space. Are we gonna do this up to page 10?


And RAW the spell etherealness STILL prevents you affecting the original plane. RAI maybe, RAW nope, there is no part of invoke duplicate that removes the restriction of etherealness on affecting the original plane. Even allowing it to go from the duplicate, YOU are casting the spell, and you are unable to affect the original plane.

Making things up again? Show me where it's written "in RAW" that you cannot affect your original plane. Oh, oh, what's that? You're only able to quote how you can't affect creatures on the plane you originated from? Well that's too bad, isn't it.

[JNAProductions]

Nobody's been insulted except for whomever barges in to confidently disparage something without knowing English or going over the descriptions he's addressing in full and then asked to learn English and stop making things up.

And that right there is insulting. It's not a direct insult, but you're effectively saying "Those who disagree with me are too stupid to even know English properly".

This has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on whether or not you're right. This is just basic decency, and you're not doing it.

[Luppers]

Nobody's been insulted except for whomever barges in to confidently disparage something without knowing English or going over the descriptions he's addressing in full and then asked to learn English and stop making things up.

You must realize that is insulting, as well as admitting you are being insulting purposefully. Surely you must.

[SpamCreateWater]

Hot damn. Even skimming over this thread got me annoyed. People really don't like typing out well thought, reasonable responses that reply to previous posts in full.

I really don't see the issue with the Forcecage combo. Nice! :smallsmile:

And, while I'm not going to put my two cents worth in regarding Etherealness, I can understand why people have a negative, knee jerk reaction to it.
But I would hope that, in the future, people made their arguments in full and, assuming they disagree with the response givrn, accept that their reading is different and move on instead of going around in circles.

[Renduaz]

And that right there is insulting. It's not a direct insult, but you're effectively saying "Those who disagree with me are too stupid to even know English properly".

This has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on whether or not you're right. This is just basic decency, and you're not doing it.


You must realize that is insulting, as well as admitting you are being insulting purposefully. Surely you must.

This reply chain begun with the tone of "This thread has convinced me to make an account, just to point out how these ideas don't work.", then proceeded to fail at doing so.....due to incomprehension of the English language and descriptions. And arguing in circles consistently. But sure, I apologize if it became insulting.

[Luppers]

This reply chain begun with the tone of "This thread has convinced me to make an account, just to point out how these ideas don't work.", then proceeded to fail at doing so.....due to incomprehension of the English language and descriptions. And arguing in circles consistently. But sure, I apologize if it became insulting.

A fair point, or it would be without the insult. You have still failed to prove my "incomprehension of the english language" with any sources proving me wrong.

Considering this thread is now reminding me of a saying about chess and pigeons. I'm going to leave with one last point: consider everything you accuse me of and look at your own posts. If you want to be treated with any respect, learn why people react negatively to you and attempt to be better and people will treat you better in return.

[Kadarai]

Guys are you still doing this, It is proven twice now in two different threads that for some unexplained reason seem identical to a fault, that the OP wouldn't understand the rules if you smacked him in the face with the feaking rulebook. Sure, anything can be "Invincible" if you ignore the rulebook, the terms set bt the table, the freaking dictionary, and an entire horde of people saying it may work differently than you understand. It's like talking to a brick wall...

"Hey my cr1/16 goblin can use disintegrate for 100d100 damage! Brokeeeen!"
"It doesn't say it can do that..."
"It doesn't say it cannot do that either!"

[Renduaz]

A fair point, or it would be without the insult. You have still failed to prove my "incomprehension of the english language" with any sources proving me wrong.

Considering this thread is now reminding me of a saying about chess and pigeons. I'm going to leave with one last point: consider everything you accuse me of and look at your own posts. If you want to be treated with any respect, learn why people react negatively to you and attempt to be better and people will treat you better in return.

I have, in the last reply.


Guys are you still doing this, It is proven twice now in two different threads that for some unexplained reason seem identical to a fault, that the OP wouldn't understand the rules if you smacked him in the face with the feaking rulebook. Sure, anything can be "Invincible" if you ignore the rulebook, the terms set bt the table, the freaking dictionary, and an entire horde of people saying it may work differently than you understand. It's like talking to a brick wall...

"Hey my cr1/16 goblin can use disintegrate for 100d100 damage! Brokeeeen!"
"It doesn't say it can do that..."
"It doesn't say it cannot do that either!"

Of course, Kadarai, whatever you say.

[Vogonjeltz]

No, you stop taking damage in the first round of combat since it's preferable to cast Forcecage first. You Channel Divinity as an action in the second round of combat, and beginning from the third round, you have 10 more rounds of the invincibility. Two 7th level spells? Are you talking about Etherealness? It's either or, not both. Also, Forcecage doesn't consume the materials. It seems like you don't understand how valuable material components and spellcasting works. A spell doesn't consume the material unless the description says it does. Here, enjoy


And yes, the Forcecage is vulnerable to a counterspell, with a DC 17 unless they're using 7th level counterspell, if they know what I'm casting, and if for some reason they decide it's worth burning to prevent me from what to them seems like me locking myself in a box for the rest of the fight.

I must have been thinking of a former edition of the spell in which the component is used, but bless your heart for your....concern.

I would have thought you surely meant both as either on its own doesn't do much of anything. Etherealness would be necessary to avoid being targeted on the material plane and Forcecage would be necessary to try and prevent the target from entering the Ethereal plane to go after the character.

Neither of which would prevent a spellcaster from also going Ethereal and then targeting the character with, say, Magic Missiles (or any missiles smaller than the space between the bars).

[Seafarer]

But I'm not affecting creatures on the Prime Material, my illusion is not a creature. And while the ability is ongoing, all spells are cast as through you were in the illusion's space, not as though you were in the Border Ethereal. "While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect [ other creatures ] and be affected by other creatures on that plane", and it continues, explicitly clarifying the fact that this is not even an absolutist statement - "Creatures that aren't on the Ethereal Plane can't perceive you and can't interact with you, unless a special ability or magic has given them the ability to do so.". So under the right circumstances you can, in fact, be affected by creatures on a different plane.

But I'm doing neither. I'm only manifesting the illusion, and it is the illusion that affects any creatures if at all, since all spells are cast as though from the illusion's space. At least you're right about Disintegrate though, it does seem like a problem. I guess to deal with the ( few ) spellcasters who have it, you'd need Counterspell, although I wonder if it could actually be thwarted by putting ( With illusion mage hand or unseen servants potentially ) 2-3 layers of translucent fabric draped on the Forcecage so that Disintegrate would have to automatically destroy them as objects first...heh.


Bold: Exactly. You cannot affect your illusion by moving it while you are under the effects of etherealness, because your illusion is not a creature on the Ethereal Plane. If you'd read my post instead of immediately going defensive, you would have seen that I agree that the core of the trick should work by strict RAW.

Also, I'm going to nitpick: no, it is not the illusion "affecting any creatures if at all". It is you affecting those creatures. The thing that allows the trick to work is that you are treated as being on the Material Plane for the purpose of the spellcasting, not that it's your illusion doing the casting. If, for instance, you used this trick to cast feeblemind, dealing psychic damage to a 10th-level Great Old One warlock, you - NOT your illusion - would still suffer the psychic damage from the warlock's Thought Shield feature, because you are the creature that dealt that psychic damage.

EDIT: Oh, I see what you were getting defensive about. And you're wrong about that. The wording of etherealness isn't "you can't affect creatures on the Material Plane"; it's "you can only affect creatures that are on the Ethereal Plane". The point where you create the illusion is not a "creature that is on the Ethereal Plane", so you cannot create an effect there while under the effects of etherealness. The trick only works if you create the illusion before casting etherealness.

EDIT again: Actually, whether you think the etherealness trick works really comes down to what you think is the more specific rule: the "you can cast spells as if you were in the illusion's space" or "you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on [the Ethereal Plane]". Like I said, I'd probably allow it, because it consumes a high-level spell slot, only lasts for one encounter, and only protects one member of the party. Others are free to rule otherwise.

[thereaper]

Looks like I'm going to have to repeat myself a million times especially for you. I meet all requirements of Invoke Duplicity, because I need a space I can see within 30 feet of me. I'm not arguing by physics, because the "Etherealness" spell description explicitly says that what you see in the Prime Material is still up to 60 feet away from you, not any other distance in feet. They overlap in part because they occupy the same area 3-dimensionally, as the DMG states, the Border Ethereal is a dimension. There is a distance between them, but that distance isn't in feet ( XY axis ), since the rules make clear that you're up to 60 feet from what you're seeing. Are we going to have 10 pages of this thread in which I have to copypaste the same answer over and over again?

"You can only do what the rules explicitly say you can do" is not how RAW works. Guess I can't speak in the Border Ethereal, nothing outright says I can. I suppose I can't swallow my own saliva either on the Border Ethereal because nothing says I can. I guess I can't use my brain in the Border Ethereal for anything other than seeing and hearing. Can't calculate, can't memorize, nothing in the spell says I can after all. Guess I can't cast any spells nor attack even in the Border Ethereal itself since nothing explicitly says I can in the spell, unlike hearing and seeing and "affecting creatures", but nothing about it meaning attack or casting spells.

As I've told you, just in this very post, the dictionary definition doesn't work. It says I ignore all objects and effects on the Prime Material, and if I "refused to take notice" of them, I wouldn't be able to look or listen to them. Can you even read properly? Considering context doesn't mean considering intent. It means considering the full sentence as written, not just the first part of it.

The measurement of "feet" doesn't only apply to the XY axis. In fact, any spatial measurement can be applied to any spatial dimension.

The second part of that sentence is one implication of it, but there is no indication that it is the only one. So, there's your context.

By RAW, you can't do anything the rules say you can't, even if it would make sense. That is the nature of RAW. So yes, by RAW, you can't notice objects on the Prime Material while ethereal. Is it absurd? Absolutely. But that is the RAW. It is no more absurd than what you're proposing to do. RAW has always been absurd. That's why no one goes by it. The RAW says your trick doesn't work. Therefore, it doesn't work by RAW. And it certainly doesn't work by RAI, either, so it doesn't work period.