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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Monk - Way of the Divine Hand (Monk + Cleric Domains)



jaappleton
2017-06-24, 09:48 AM
I got this idea awhile back, when the Theurge was first released in UA. If they could take some Cleric and put it into a Wizard, why not take some Cleric and put it into a Monk?

Hopefully without it being horrendously OP, though. :smallcool:

I always found Clerics in 5E to be very well designed. Concise design, thematic for their Domain, everything fits together well. I figure adapting Cleric design philosophy, via Theurge, would be a great way to adapt the same design philosophy on the Monk.

So, let's get to it!

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Way of the Divine Hand

Monks who walk the path of the Divine Hand are devout followers of their Monastic Tradition, often seen as temple guards, or traveling with Clerics of the same faith on a pilgrimage to spread word of their Deity. These Monks vary in their powers and abilities, though all are able to channel their faith through their Ki.

Channel the Divine
Your devotion has allowed you to manifest the basic abilities granted by those who follow the same Faith. At 3rd level, you learn the spell Shield of Faith and the Thaumaturgy cantrip. Also, choose a Cleric domain. You learn the first level spells granted by that Domain, and can cast a spell at the cost of 2 Ki points. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for these spells. (If your chosen Domain already grants you the Shield of Faith spell, choose another 1st level Cleric spell as appropriate for your Domain)

You gain the additional spells of your Domain as you increase in Monk levels, and can spend additional Ki to upcast the spells at higher level.

Monk Levels -- Maximum Ki spent -- Maximum Spell Level
5-8................................3................ ............2
9-12..............................4................. ...........3
13-16.............................5.................. .........4
17-20.............................6.................. .........5


Blessed Energy
At 6th level, you can channel divine energy to cause a blast of energy to radiate outward from your body. At the cost of 3 Ki points, as an action, choose any number of enemies within 30ft of you. Each enemy must make a Constitution saving throw, or suffer 2d10 + your Monk level damage on a failed saving throw, or half as much on a successful save. The damage type of this ability depends on your Domain. This ability can be used a number of times per long rest equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Arcana - Force
Death - Necrotic
Forge - Fire
Grave - Necrotic
Knowledge - Psychic
Life - Radiant
Light - Fire
Protection - Radiant
Nature - Cold
Tempest - Thunder
Trickery - Poison
War - Radiant


Divine Blessing
Through training, you've managed to earn the favor of the greater power that you serve. Starting at 11th level, whenever you roll for a skill check, you can spend 1 Ki to roll your Martial Arts damage die and add the result to the roll. You can do so after your normal roll is made, but you must do so before the result is known. You can do this a number of times up to your Wisdom modifier per long rest. Additionally, you have Resistance to the same damage type as your Blessed Energy damage.

Chosen of the Divine
Through the trials you've overcome, you can channel the energy of your Domain at will. Your Flurry of Blows deals additional damage equal to your Wisdom modifier. This damage is the same type as your Blessed Energy.

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Now, let me explain my rational behind some things.

Spellcasting here follows the Way of the Four Elements. So a half-caster Monk isn't unheard of.

Sticking with Cleric Domains makes the selections thematic.

The lv6 ability is purely a ripoff of the Light Cleric's channel divinity, but it works well, I think. It fixes a big issue with the Monk, a lack of AoE, and it has a cost that prevents it from being used too much. Some of the Domain Spells grant AoE, but far from all of them do.

Level 11 grants both a solid feature and keeps it thematic.

Level 17 only works on Flurry, not all Unarmed Strikes, so it keeps it in check a bit.

Honestly and truthfully, yes, some Domains turn out to be better than others. No doubt about that. But I think this allows for a thematic monk, with some spellcasting. My favorite would personally be a Forge Monk, but that's just me. Trickery and War are pretty great, Nature not so much.

So, what do you think?

jaappleton
2017-06-28, 10:04 AM
Five days and not one reply?

Is it poorly designed? Is it fine?

ANY sort of feedback, any kind, would be appreciated.

nickl_2000
2017-06-28, 01:42 PM
1) The level 17 ability feels weak. You are going up against Quivering Palm, which for the cost of 3 ki you do a minimum of 10d10 damage to a max of death. For the same three ki with the level 17 ability you would do 6 extra attacks, each attack allowing you an extra 5 damage. So a max of 30 damage, if you hit every one of them. You can also figure in the extra damage from hitting the attacks, but it still feel weak.

2) I'm guessing that the cost for ki with spell level is spell level +1? It would be easier if you mentioned that. How do you handle components for spells? For example, can my monk cast the third level spell revivify?

3) What spells do you have access to? do you get all of them + the cleric domain spells? Or only certain ones?



I love the Blessed Energy effect (smite), although it would be extremely power at level 6 and lose a lot of it's potency as you level. I wonder if it could start lower and grow in the number of creatures it effects/radius or if it could grow in damage as you level.

jaappleton
2017-06-28, 03:10 PM
1) The level 17 ability feels weak. You are going up against Quivering Palm, which for the cost of 3 ki you do a minimum of 10d10 damage to a max of death. For the same three ki with the level 17 ability you would do 6 extra attacks, each attack allowing you an extra 5 damage. So a max of 30 damage, if you hit every one of them. You can also figure in the extra damage from hitting the attacks, but it still feel weak.

2) I'm guessing that the cost for ki with spell level is spell level +1? It would be easier if you mentioned that. How do you handle components for spells? For example, can my monk cast the third level spell revivify?

3) What spells do you have access to? do you get all of them + the cleric domain spells? Or only certain ones?



I love the Blessed Energy effect (smite), although it would be extremely power at level 6 and lose a lot of it's potency as you level. I wonder if it could start lower and grow in the number of creatures it effects/radius or if it could grow in damage as you level.

First, thank you very much for taking the time to give me feedback. I really do appreciate it! :smallbiggrin:

The lv17 is a little weak, and that's somewhat intentional. The reason being that I wanted the subclass overall to be 'good', not 'OMG this is OP' and then balance it from there. I didn't want to tack on too much to it. You're right about Quivering Palm, that's the best capstone in the game. However, I'd say that makes it a little unfair to compare things to it. I mean, you can outright kill things for 3 Ki. They just die, that's it. Or they at least take a ton of damage. I think its more fair to compare it to the other Monk capstones, like Shadow or Sun Soul. That said, if you still think its weak, I'll find a way to make it better.

Yes, the spell cost the spell level +1. I copied the chart from the Way of the Four Elements monk in the PHB. I'd forgotten about material components; my table never uses them. I'd say you don't need the components for them.

You'd only have access to the bonus spells that Clerics of the same Domain get, plus Shield of Faith, and the Thaumaturgy cantrip. For example, a lv3 Light Domain Monk would have Burning Hands, Faerie Fire, Shield of Faith, and the Thaumaturgy cantrip.

Blessed Energy is actually a 30ft radius ally-friendly AoE centered on yourself. The Monk channels his Ki outward to impact creatures he desires. So at lv6, it's doing 2d10+6 damage. That's 5.5 + 5.5 +6, or 17 damage. It's the same as the Light Cleric's channel divinity, Radiance of the Dawn (except that also dispels darkness)

Llama513
2017-06-28, 04:09 PM
I really love this class, as someone that really enjoys monks and has made a couple of archetypes myself, I really think that thematically this is very cool, and can lead to a really cool dynamic in a party, between the monk and other divine characters, I think that in comparison to the other to capstones yours sits in between what Way of shadows gets (which frankly is quite weak in my opinion) and what Way of the four elements gets which is simply 5th level spells, however since you get fifth level spells from the class already, I think that yours balances out to be stronger then both of these as a capstone, but as a whole I think it compares very nicely to the shadow hand, and captures something of the feel that they wanted out of four elements but didn't quite reach, and strikes me as a similar to the enlightened fist that I designed.

Which does raise a question, have you thought about letting them combine certain spells with their unarmed strikes, or having a smite-esque affect

jaappleton
2017-06-28, 04:54 PM
I really love this class, as someone that really enjoys monks and has made a couple of archetypes myself, I really think that thematically this is very cool, and can lead to a really cool dynamic in a party, between the monk and other divine characters, I think that in comparison to the other to capstones yours sits in between what Way of shadows gets (which frankly is quite weak in my opinion) and what Way of the four elements gets which is simply 5th level spells, however since you get fifth level spells from the class already, I think that yours balances out to be stronger then both of these as a capstone, but as a whole I think it compares very nicely to the shadow hand, and captures something of the feel that they wanted out of four elements but didn't quite reach, and strikes me as a similar to the enlightened fist that I designed.

Which does raise a question, have you thought about letting them combine certain spells with their unarmed strikes, or having a smite-esque affect

I have thought about that, and thought it'd be amazing to incorporate.

The honest reason why I didn't do 'abilities inspired by each Domain' is this: That is a ton of work, and I might do it if I get around to a third draft (this is actually my 2nd), but for right now, I kinda took an easy and somewhat lazy route.

For doing a "spend some Ki to do a stronger and more thematic attack", honestly, I didn't see a point. The lv17 does that, Monks already get Flurry of Blows. So you'll be spending more Ki to do things on top of Flurry, and secondly, where would I put it? At what level does it get incorporated, and what feature gets removed?

Llama513
2017-06-28, 04:57 PM
I have thought about that, and thought it'd be amazing to incorporate.

The honest reason why I didn't do 'abilities inspired by each Domain' is this: That is a ton of work, and I might do it if I get around to a third draft (this is actually my 2nd), but for right now, I kinda took an easy and somewhat lazy route.

Fair enough, and for just a 2nd draft this looks awesome, the way I implemented the unarmed strike spell thing was by having it cost an extra ki point to cast as part of your unarmed strike, having it be touch spells, and later (at 11th and 17th) letting you use rays, and line and radius centered on self spells, (corresponding to the levels in order).

jaappleton
2017-06-28, 05:45 PM
Fair enough, and for just a 2nd draft this looks awesome, the way I implemented the unarmed strike spell thing was by having it cost an extra ki point to cast as part of your unarmed strike, having it be touch spells, and later (at 11th and 17th) letting you use rays, and line and radius centered on self spells, (corresponding to the levels in order).

That's an excellent way to do it. I thought about the ability to cast their first level spells as bonus actions at higher levels, to keep those first level spells worth considering. Like Burning Hands as a bonus action has a use. Thunderwave would be pretty good as a bonus action due to its push effect, etc.

I might incorporate that at lv11. I dunno.

Llama513
2017-06-28, 05:47 PM
That's an excellent way to do it. I thought about the ability to cast their first level spells as bonus actions at higher levels, to keep those first level spells worth considering. Like Burning Hands as a bonus action has a use. Thunderwave would be pretty good as a bonus action due to its push effect, etc.

I might incorporate that at lv11. I dunno.

cool, feel free to look at my enlightened fist for refrence on wording, if you don't have access to the 3.5 enlightened fist prestige class

jaappleton
2017-06-28, 05:54 PM
cool, feel free to look at my enlightened fist for refrence on wording, if you don't have access to the 3.5 enlightened fist prestige class

I'm not gonna lie: Your Enlightened Fist is my backup plan if my DM doesn't approve mine.

It gets me the two things I really wanted: the Shield spell and some AoE. I also wanted Shield of Faith to Concentrate on, but I can deal.

Llama513
2017-06-28, 06:31 PM
I'm not gonna lie: Your Enlightened Fist is my backup plan if my DM doesn't approve mine.

It gets me the two things I really wanted: the Shield spell and some AoE. I also wanted Shield of Faith to Concentrate on, but I can deal.

That is really awesome to here, glad that you like it

Ziegander
2017-06-28, 10:02 PM
Well, obviously, compared to the Wo4E, this is better in virtually every possible way. Whether that is overly powerful is a different question, one I would suggest should be answered by comparing against Paladins and Warlocks.

6th level Monks have 6 Ki points to fuel their various abilities, 6th level Paladins have four 1st-level spells and two 2nd-level spells per long rest, and Warlocks have Eldritch Blast as well as two 3rd-level spells per short rest. This Tradition allows a Monk to cast 1st or 2nd level spells from a chosen Cleric domain at the cost of 2 or 3 Ki points, a resource which recharges on a short rest. By comparison, assuming two short rests per day, that gives this Tradition the ability to cast up to four more 2nd-level spells in a day than the Paladin and keep up with a Warlock in terms of spell quantity, if not necessarily quality.

Now, arguably, that makes the archetype a bit much as is, but what pushes it over the top for me is that the base Monk class is not weak at all without its archetypes. By this point the Paladin has his Channel Divinity, which is a solid short rest combat trick, and Warlocks have invocations as well as two archetype features, but Monks get a useful class feature at every class level and allowing short rest recovered half-casting, even from just two spells "known" per level, on top of that, continuing to grant the archetype useful features at 6th, 11th, and 17th, it just seems like overkill to me.

Instead of later level features being further boosted numbers and extra offensive advantages, I would suggest changing them to thematic sideways power ups. Something like Resistance to Necrotic and Radiant damage at 6th level. Your hit point maximum and your ability scores cannot be reduced at 11th level. Immunity to Necrotic and Radiant damage at 17th. These aren't insignificant advantages, but they're also not outright increasing your power either.

jaappleton
2017-06-29, 04:46 AM
Well, obviously, compared to the Wo4E, this is better in virtually every possible way. Whether that is overly powerful is a different question, one I would suggest should be answered by comparing against Paladins and Warlocks.

6th level Monks have 6 Ki points to fuel their various abilities, 6th level Paladins have four 1st-level spells and two 2nd-level spells per long rest, and Warlocks have Eldritch Blast as well as two 3rd-level spells per short rest. This Tradition allows a Monk to cast 1st or 2nd level spells from a chosen Cleric domain at the cost of 2 or 3 Ki points, a resource which recharges on a short rest. By comparison, assuming two short rests per day, that gives this Tradition the ability to cast up to four more 2nd-level spells in a day than the Paladin and keep up with a Warlock in terms of spell quantity, if not necessarily quality.

Now, arguably, that makes the archetype a bit much as is, but what pushes it over the top for me is that the base Monk class is not weak at all without its archetypes. By this point the Paladin has his Channel Divinity, which is a solid short rest combat trick, and Warlocks have invocations as well as two archetype features, but Monks get a useful class feature at every class level and allowing short rest recovered half-casting, even from just two spells "known" per level, on top of that, continuing to grant the archetype useful features at 6th, 11th, and 17th, it just seems like overkill to me.

Instead of later level features being further boosted numbers and extra offensive advantages, I would suggest changing them to thematic sideways power ups. Something like Resistance to Necrotic and Radiant damage at 6th level. Your hit point maximum and your ability scores cannot be reduced at 11th level. Immunity to Necrotic and Radiant damage at 17th. These aren't insignificant advantages, but they're also not outright increasing your power either.

In regards to the spells compared to Paladin and Warlock:

You're right. However, I think you overlooked one thing: Monks also require Ki to fuel almost everything else they do. While a Paladin needs their slots to fuel Smite as well as cast spells, they do not need their spells to fuel their Aura, their immunity to disease, their Lay on Hands, etc. A Monk does need their Ki to fuel these spells, their Stunning Strike, Step of the Wind, their Flurry, etc...

Yes, you CAN end up casting more than a Paladin. You can. And you'd also hamstring yourself, in many ways. And even compared to the Paladin and Warlock, the Monk is also much more limited in scope regarding what spells are available.

nickl_2000
2017-06-29, 06:51 AM
First, thank you very much for taking the time to give me feedback. I really do appreciate it! :smallbiggrin:

The lv17 is a little weak, and that's somewhat intentional. The reason being that I wanted the subclass overall to be 'good', not 'OMG this is OP' and then balance it from there. I didn't want to tack on too much to it. You're right about Quivering Palm, that's the best capstone in the game. However, I'd say that makes it a little unfair to compare things to it. I mean, you can outright kill things for 3 Ki. They just die, that's it. Or they at least take a ton of damage. I think its more fair to compare it to the other Monk capstones, like Shadow or Sun Soul. That said, if you still think its weak, I'll find a way to make it better.

Yes, the spell cost the spell level +1. I copied the chart from the Way of the Four Elements monk in the PHB. I'd forgotten about material components; my table never uses them. I'd say you don't need the components for them.

You'd only have access to the bonus spells that Clerics of the same Domain get, plus Shield of Faith, and the Thaumaturgy cantrip. For example, a lv3 Light Domain Monk would have Burning Hands, Faerie Fire, Shield of Faith, and the Thaumaturgy cantrip.

Blessed Energy is actually a 30ft radius ally-friendly AoE centered on yourself. The Monk channels his Ki outward to impact creatures he desires. So at lv6, it's doing 2d10+6 damage. That's 5.5 + 5.5 +6, or 17 damage. It's the same as the Light Cleric's channel divinity, Radiance of the Dawn (except that also dispels darkness)

I respect your choice to make the level 17 ability weaker, and agree that quivering palm is extremely powerful. It's a nice change of pace to see a homebrew that isn't overpowered. It would say that it is closed to the Way of the Shadow ability, but still not quite up to par with it. The opportunist ability is something that is always on and costs no resources verses yours which does cost ki. That being said, I've always been to reticent to use resources in games, and like the always on options. Being as it's a level 17 ability, and most campaigns don't get to level 17, it's probably not worth the effort to make modifications to it.



The concerns I have about material components isn't actually the cost of the components pouch, that's cheap and easy enough. The issue I have is with the life domain cleric. Using that domain you gets access to revivy and raise dead. Raise dead, requires a 500 GP diamond which is consumed and revivify requires 300 GP worth of diamonds (also consumed). Diamonds are not always common in adventuring, and something like that could make a difference. However, requiring the materials could put a hamper on the Monks ability to function. Could you possibly do something where casting spell a spell with Ki that has components with costs requires a donation to the nearest temple of equal value in gold at the next opportunity?






By the way, have you seen Kryx's homebrewed monks? The light one there is also worth considering if you DM doesn't allow yours
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkbbHIDc

jaappleton
2017-06-29, 10:01 AM
I absolutely see what you're saying in regards to utilizing the material components now. That is a bit of an issue.

I like the idea of dedicating time or money to a temple, but that seems very dependent on the DM. "Oh, you raised your Dwarf ally, but the nearest temple to Kord is 400 miles away. Looks like you're gonna be doing your own thing for awhile, Monk, the party is going the opposite direction toward the main quest".

This might almost seem counter productive to my own homebrew, but what about adding in an optional check for tables that do keep track of material components?

For example: "On any spell you cast which requires a material component costing 500GP or above, you must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom check to channel the spell through your Ki. You can bypass this by providing the material components as normal for the spell."

Ziegander
2017-06-29, 10:32 AM
jappleton, I realize many of the base Monk's class features require Ki to activate, but I think short-rest half-casting from a solid list of your choice is not something to be so easily dismissed just because you'd "hamstring yourself." I'm not seeing how casting spells every short rest is hamstringing yourself, that's pretty much all the Warlock class does, after all, and it seems to do okay. Using this archetype gives you the option of having short-rest recoverable spells at a Paladin's spell level rate OR all of your other useful Monk class features. Using relevant archetype features in lieu of main class ones is never hamstringing yourself unless for some reason they are designed to be intentionally weaker than main class options. In this case, my argument is that they certainly are not, and, in fact, can in many cases be more powerful.

Now your original post alluded to the fact that you were hoping this archetype wasn't horrendously OP, which seems to indicate to me that you had lingering doubts that it might be at least a little overpowered. I'm saying, yeah, it probably is a little overpowered. Sure, Way of Four Elements is really, really bad. You know what archetype features it gets? Short rest half-casting and one spell known at 3rd, one at 6th, one at 11th, and one at 17th. That's it, those are it's features. Your Tradition, though, blows it out of the water by more than doubling the spells known and then giving it new, relevant, and strong features at 6th, 11th, and 17th level as well. This is all relative of course, but your Tradition is probably something like twice as strong as 4E and four times as useful.

nickl_2000
2017-06-29, 10:44 AM
I absolutely see what you're saying in regards to utilizing the material components now. That is a bit of an issue.

I like the idea of dedicating time or money to a temple, but that seems very dependent on the DM. "Oh, you raised your Dwarf ally, but the nearest temple to Kord is 400 miles away. Looks like you're gonna be doing your own thing for awhile, Monk, the party is going the opposite direction toward the main quest".

This might almost seem counter productive to my own homebrew, but what about adding in an optional check for tables that do keep track of material components?

For example: "On any spell you cast which requires a material component costing 500GP or above, you must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom check to channel the spell through your Ki. You can bypass this by providing the material components as normal for the spell."

That could work, but I would be super pissed for both PCs, if the revivify check failed. I think that it would be better to find a different way to sacrifice the money if a temple isn't close. You could melt the money into a campfire. Or you could pile it up in front of the body asking for the god to accept your sacrifice, then the divine energy falls on them to push their soul back into their body. As it pulls back away from the body it takes the gold with it.

jaappleton
2017-06-29, 11:22 AM
That could work, but I would be super pissed for both PCs, if the revivify check failed. I think that it would be better to find a different way to sacrifice the money if a temple isn't close. You could melt the money into a campfire. Or you could pile it up in front of the body asking for the god to accept your sacrifice, then the divine energy falls on them to push their soul back into their body. As it pulls back away from the body it takes the gold with it.

That's why it's somewhat optional. You CAN do the check, or just pony up the material components.

nickl_2000
2017-06-29, 12:16 PM
That's why it's somewhat optional. You CAN do the check, or just pony up the material components.

Sorry, should have read the whole entry. Missed the extremely important "You can bypass this by providing the material components as normal for the spell." piece.

jaappleton
2017-06-29, 12:55 PM
Sorry, should have read the whole entry. Missed the extremely important "You can bypass this by providing the material components as normal for the spell." piece.

So, adding that in, what do you think of the Archetype? Solid?

nickl_2000
2017-06-29, 02:04 PM
So, adding that in, what do you think of the Archetype? Solid?

I think it is certainly a viable alternate. I would likely let it into my table if I were allowing homebrew.

jaappleton
2017-06-29, 02:50 PM
I think it is certainly a viable alternate. I would likely let it into my table if I were allowing homebrew.

As strong of an endorsement as I'll get! Thank you!