I don't get it: beast master

[Desteplo]

Why is it so bad? They get 4 attacks at lvl11 with free bonus action and 6 attacks at lvl17

[Grod_The_Giant]

Why is it so bad? They get 4 attacks at lvl11 with free bonus action and 6 attacks at lvl17
Err, no; you get one attack, then use your extra attack to have your beast make two attacks-- Exceptional Training only works on turns when you don't command your beast to attack. You don't even get an attack from TWF, because you're not taking the Attack action. I don't know how you're even getting close to six attacks at level 17.

But the DPR stacks up, from what I understand. The main complaints are that your buddy is painfully fragile (equivalent to a Wizard with 10 Con and no defensive features), which in turns means your entire schtick can be easily shut down, and most of all that having to spend your own actions to make your companion do anything just feels weird and wrong.

[Naanomi]

The main complaints, as I understand them, are fivefold:

1) the mechanics are... very mechanical, the pets feel like robots not companions, and giving up attacks seems artificial

2) even at high levels, the pets can be very fragile; and once dead you may be forced to operate 'without a subclass' for quite a while (depending on where you happen to be adventuring at the moment)

3) the Ranger chasis is already somewhat weak by some measures, and certainly situational in many of its abilities. The subclasses seem to contain a lot of what makes a Ranger 'rangery'

4) the pet doesn't benefit from hunter's mark, and reliance on bonus action to command your pet means lack of access to many of the Ranger combat enhancing spells; it feels like it lacks synergy

5) the 'best' pets are all unusual beasts (flying snake, pteradon, giant crab), and don't fit the iconic imagery most have in mind with the 'beastmaster' concept (wolf, panther, falcon maybe?)

[busterswd]

Your math seems off. At levels 1-4, either your OR your pet can attack. (Having your pet attack consumes your action)

At level 5, you can swing once, while your pet can swing once.

At level 11, you can swing once, while your pet can swing twice.

[Desteplo]

Lvl11
You can command animal to attack twice, twice =4

Lvl17
Swift quiver (you don't need to attack to get bonus 2 arrows

Animal having low synergy until share spells at 15 makes sense

-also low health I'm sure doesn't help even if you can use healing word in a pinch EDIT: woops nvm

[DracoKnight]

Animal having low synergy until share spells at 15 makes sense
-also low health I'm sure doesn't help even if you can use healing word in a pinch

And most campaigns will never see 15th level. So no, it doesn't make sense.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Lvl11
You can command animal to attack twice, twice =4
Incorrect; the text states "your beast companion can make two attacks when you command it to use the Attack action." It doesn't say anything about commanding it to attack twice, which is still an Action.


Lvl17
Swift quiver (you don't need to attack to get bonus 2 arrows
Ah, gotcha. That gets you up to 5 attacks for one or two fights a day, sure.

[DracoKnight]

Incorrect; the text states "your beast companion can make two attacks when you command it to use the Attack action." It doesn't say anything about commanding it to attack twice, which is still an Action.


Ah, gotcha. That gets you up to 5 attacks for one or two fights a day, sure.

Commanding your beast to attack only forfeits one of your attacks from your attack action.

[Easy_Lee]

I suggest using the updated UA Ranger. They did something I proposed a long time ago, and took Extra Attack off the base ranger template. Hunters can extra attack, beast masters can't, but beast masters finally got their free-acting beast. The math on that one checks out, and it has the fluff it should. Still doesn't benefit from your hunter's mark, though, which is unfortunate.

If you want to use the base beast master, the best you can do is play a halfling and ride a panther or pteranodon with Mounted Combatant. That fixes the beast's squishiness, allows you to control its movement for free as a mount, and improves your own mobility. A ranger moving 100' per round while pelting foes with arrows is nothing to sneeze at.

[djreynolds]

The new ranger is sweet and is UA playable.... so no reason not to.

But the old beastmaster.... well poisonous snake or flying snake... at early levels was dangerous. +6 to hit

With PHB or Old beastmaster, you are and your beast are not going to be lifelong buddies. The beast will die and you will get a new one... who cares. You just got done killing a village of goblins.

For PHB

For archers, two schools of thought you can grab magic initiate for find familiar or use a beast which is basically a familiar with more HP for advantage or grab a familiar for advantage and a beast basically for a road block.

For melee, IMO, I use the beast as a means of drawing agro, why DMs like to kill beast and familiars is beyond me, and really let your beast attack and grab sentinel and polearm master and live off of AoO.... and when the wolf or panther is dead get another one. This is one I found very effective.

For anyone, grab a giant crab who has good AC, and just sit him in the middle of battle and let him get attacked and draw AoO as enemies try to pass him by.... and then after he is dead boil him and serve with liquefied butter.

or

Have your DM supply you with a figurine of wondrous power and take hunter archetype instead.

[Sicarius Victis]

Commanding your beast to attack only forfeits one of your attacks from your attack action.

Yes, but that requires your companion to take an action, which they still only have one of per round.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Commanding your beast to attack only forfeits one of your attacks from your attack action.
It's not the Attack action; commanding your buddy to attack is its own thing, with a special case allowing you to attack once on your own if you have extra attack.

[Tanarii]

Commanding your beast to attack only forfeits one of your attacks from your attack action.
Are we still talking about the PHB ranger? Because if so that's flat wrong. The Ranger users an action (ie their whole turn outside of bonus actions) to command the companion to use the Attack Action.

The main way this sucks is it means the Ranger can't TWF with commanding the companion to attack, since the ranger isn't using its own Attack Action.

[DracoKnight]

It's not the Attack action; commanding your buddy to attack is its own thing, with a special case allowing you to attack once on your own if you have extra attack.

I'm pretty sure that it's actually a case of you taking the attack action and sacking your attack to allow the beast to attack.

Edit: Never mind, I was wrong. I pulled up the relevant ability and reread it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm pretty sure that it's actually a case of you taking the attack action and sacking your attack to allow the beast to attack.

Edit: Never mind, I was wrong. I pulled up the relevant ability and reread it.
It's all good; it's the sort of finicky little close reading detail that 5e generally manages avoid.

[Tanarii]

It's all good; it's the sort of finicky little close reading detail that 5e generally manages avoid.
I disagree. 5e is full of little close reading details. Especially when it comes to anything involving actions, bonus actions, attack actions, bonus action spells ... basically anything related to actions.

Edit: another example is dueling FS counter-intuitively working with shields once you read the details closely.

[Sigreid]

IMO the only real problem, and it extends to the UA ranger, is that your beast will never be able to overcome resistance to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning from non-magical attacks. Eventually that becomes quite common and most of your damage potential is now cut in half.

[Garresh]

I disagree. 5e is full of little close reading details. Especially when it comes to anything involving actions, bonus actions, attack actions, bonus action spells ... basically anything related to actions.

Edit: another example is dueling FS counter-intuitively working with shields once you read the details closely.

I mean, in their defense, rapier and buckler was a pretty common dueling style at one point historically. =P

[Tanarii]

I mean, in their defense, rapier and buckler was a pretty common dueling style at one point historically. =P
Yeah, some time ago, I had a player make a Swashbuckler. Dex Dueling Rapier and Buckler Fighter Noble. They checked with me first that the shield would still give its bonus, and I was like 'ayup'. It did change my perspective somewhat on the subject.

[Desteplo]

IMO the only real problem, and it extends to the UA ranger, is that your beast will never be able to overcome resistance to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning from non-magical attacks. Eventually that becomes quite common and most of your damage potential is now cut in half.

Would it be DM dependent to buy silvered claw extensions for the beast? Like they do for rooster fights. At that point your animal would look like a zoid (on top of armor) making the "companion feels like a robot" argument pretty funny

[Sigreid]

Would it be DM dependent to buy silvered claw extensions for the beast? Like they do for rooster fights. At that point your animal would look like a zoid (on top of armor) making the "companion feels like a robot" argument pretty funny

A DM can always work around an issue like this. Some DM's won't, of course. Personally, I would like if around level 8 or so the beasts attacks start counting as magic attacks. This is pretty much inline with when Druids and Monks get this ability.

[Tanarii]

OTOH Rangers can get a decent AC for their companion. Barding is right in the PHB, and the companion gets to add the Rangers Prof bonus on top of that.

Depending on how you interpret saves, that can either be a weak point (they're no proficient in any) or a strong point (gets Rangers prof bonus to all).

[Zalabim]

IMO the only real problem, and it extends to the UA ranger, is that your beast will never be able to overcome resistance to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning from non-magical attacks. Eventually that becomes quite common and most of your damage potential is now cut in half.
It's only ever as common as the DM wants it to be. Critters have such resistances across the whole CR spectrum. And the way to bypass it is the same as it's ever been, get a magic item for it. Aside from silvering weapons, and your DM might let you do that for your pet too, it's the same thing the ranger itself relies on for attacks. There are some Ranger spells that deal magical damage, but not a great deal of them and not a great deal of the resources to cast them.

Resistance to damage from non-magical attacks would be a non-thing if everyone and their dog automatically got ways to bypass it, instead of having to use resources and workarounds. The summoned creatures and NPC mobs that it's apparently supposed to hinder are another strong ranger tactic anyway, from Conjure Animals.