Are these guys strong enough?

[Avianmosquito]

So, I see an issue potentially arising with my next campaign where the players may choose to attack the leadership of a hostile empire directly. Since the empire needs to survive the campaign, I have to make it immediately apparent that such an attempt is suicide so the PCs don't attempt it, and that if they do these NPCs are too strong to stand any real chance against. This is complicated by me wanting to use one of them alone as the campaign's final encounter.

So, ignoring their royal guards and the like (who are mid-level), the four most important people are a level 12 favored soul (the emporer), a level 20 paladin (his champion) with a LION as his mount, a level 20 (10/10) rogue/assassin (clearly their best assassin) and a level 24 fear/war cleric (their pontiff). About what level would the PCs need to reach to stand a serious chance of winning this fight? What level would they need to be to defeat that assassin? At a level where they can defeat the assassin, is there any way they could defeat the other three, in case they go after them following the assassination attempt? About how many level 9 paladins need I throw on to make that properly unwinnable again? I can provide stat blocks if need be.

[Mike Miller]

What level are the PCs and what classes? You have an epic level cleric. Epic level spells can make the PCs lose pretty fast if you want them to.

[Avianmosquito]

What level are the PCs and what classes?

We're starting at 3, but it's a long campaign. They could be pretty high level by the end of it. 12-15 seems likely. As for classes, recruitment thread goes up tomorrow. Maybe. Delays are probable.


You have an epic level cleric. Epic level spells can make the PCs lose pretty fast if you want them to.

Well, epic isn't really a thing here, he's just four levels above 20th level. He can cast full party save or die anyway, he has Weird, he doesn't need epic spells.

[Kayblis]

Levels 12~15 means 6~8th level spells. The PCs can do a lot of harm. Still, numbers are your biggest weapon here - have 20 guards and 5~6 spellcasters in the main room, and they most certainly are going to lose no matter what.

I think the problem would rather be making the PCs respect the emperor enough to not try fighting him. Try to make them like your NPCs and not see everything as "kill this for X profit". Make sure they get that the Emperor is a big guy not only for his combat skills, but also his management and charisma. Even if they kill him, they're the ones losing the most, now without any support from his organization and probably living in a country in chaos. In short, make the emperor "too important to die" and his followers know it, even if he's still a human.

[Avianmosquito]

Levels 12~15 means 6~8th level spells. The PCs can do a lot of harm. Still, numbers are your biggest weapon here - have 20 guards and 5~6 spellcasters in the main room, and they most certainly are going to lose no matter what.

And I can certainly manage that, having an empire to work with and all. The holy guard is a full company, and their default entry is an 9th level paladin. They can't all be there, but having a quarter of them actually be present isn't too unreasonable. As for casters, there will be zero arcane casters since witchcraft is a capital offence in the empire, but I can certainly fit a couple extra divine casters. We already have two, or 23 if you count paladins, I can fit a couple lower end clerics in service of the pontiff. Plus side, they'll also all have fear/war domains, and those domains can really wreak havoc in a group fight. That does mean I need to actually write the cleric entries, but that won't take long. Especially since they are likely also 9th level.


I think the problem would rather be making the PCs respect the emperor enough to not try fighting him. Try to make them like your NPCs and not see everything as "kill this for X profit". Make sure they get that the Emperor is a big guy not only for his combat skills, but also his management and charisma. Even if they kill him, they're the ones losing the most, now without any support from his organization and probably living in a country in chaos. In short, make the emperor "too important to die" and his followers know it, even if he's still a human.

That might be hard, since he's a figurehead. I mean, kindof. He's a general who was stuck in the position after a coup and the church really runs the country. (Actually, that's a lot of what makes that country so sick and backwards in the first place.) I can certainly make the pontiff such a character, though. Imagine the chaos the theocracy would be in if the man who has run their religion for fourteen hundred years was killed, and how that would certainly result in a full-scale war with the secular north (where the PCs are from).

[Coventry]

I have to make it immediately apparent that such an attempt is suicide so the PCs don't attempt it, and that if they do these NPCs are too strong to stand any real chance against.

Tell the players up front that you will curb-stomp their characters if they try to tackle something too big for them. Something like, "There are some encounters with epic level opponents as part of this campaign. Don't assume you can beat anyone in combat whenever you want or whenever they annoy you. I expect you to come up with non-combat ways to win those encounters. Try to tackle that Great Wyrm Red Dragon in humanoid form at level 3, and you will be rolling up replacements for Misters Ash, Char and Soot."

[danielxcutter]

I'm pretty sure that the words "24th level Cleric" will be sufficient to deter your players from bringing the fight to them for a looooooong time. Even without Epic Spellcasting, or epic feats in general, anything capable of casting 9th-level spells is a formidable opponent. Still, the lack of epic material means that he's not that much more powerful than a 17th level Cleric, in relative terms.

If you want to do give the players an IC reason not to pull a scry-and-die, then have your guys show off in-game. None of my characters would be stupid enough to fight someone who just wiped out two dozen death knights with a Mass Heal followed by a quickened Mass Cure Light Wounds. Those spells both use 9th-level slots, and while that might not be the most optimal choice, it's a great way to show off the power of your Cleric. Something similar could be done for the other NPCs you've prepared.

What alignment is this church? I can't see a standard Paladin of Justice(read: no alignment ACF) willingly stand with a church described as "sick and backwards" and bans all arcane magic as witchcraft. I mean, not even Warlocks or Binders(which can easily be Good; or at least not Evil), but arcanists. Do you have an in-game reason, mechanics that justify this, or just DM fiat?

I'll add more stuff later.

[Avianmosquito]

I'm pretty sure that the words "24th level Cleric" will be sufficient to deter your players from bringing the fight to them for a looooooong time. Even without Epic Spellcasting, or epic feats in general, anything capable of casting 9th-level spells is a formidable opponent. Still, the lack of epic material means that he's not that much more powerful than a 17th level Cleric, in relative terms.

Last campaign, I watched a lone 7th level cleric decide to charge an entire platoon of 3rd level musketeers and get killed all over the road. I am less confidant about the actions of players now.


If you want to do give the players an IC reason not to pull a scry-and-die, then have your guys show off in-game. None of my characters would be stupid enough to fight someone who just wiped out two dozen death knights with a Mass Heal followed by a quickened Mass Cure Light Wounds. Those spells both use 9th-level slots, and while that might not be the most optimal choice, it's a great way to show off the power of your Cleric. Something similar could be done for the other NPCs you've prepared.

Ideally, they should know these men by reputation and never actually meet any but that assassin at the very end. I can have NPCs tell stories like that, but not much more.


What alignment is this church? I can't see a standard Paladin of Justice(read: no alignment ACF) willingly stand with a church described as "sick and backwards" and bans all arcane magic as witchcraft. I mean, not even Warlocks or Binders(which can easily be Good; or at least not Evil), but arcanists. Do you have an in-game reason, mechanics that justify this, or just DM fiat?

I'll add more stuff later.

There is no alignment in this setting. What's important is that the paladins believe themselves to be good. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar) In fact, that can be said of the whole church. Their extremist tendencies only strengthen their belief in their cause. As they see it, they are the servants of God. If God's servants do evil in his name, he will strike them down. If they are not struck down, surely they must not have done evil. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TautologicalTemplar)QED. One wonders what would happen if they were to realise their god doesn't exist.

[danielxcutter]

Last campaign, I watched a lone 7th level cleric decide to charge an entire platoon of 3rd level musketeers and get killed all over the road. I am less confidant about the actions of players now.

Well, good point... but how much is an entire platoon? Are you going to give the party many opportunities to get powerful allies? And by powerful, I mean "influence the battlefield meanfully".


Ideally, they should know these men by reputation and never actually meet any but that assassin at the very end. I can have NPCs tell stories like that, but not much more.

Then there shouldn't be much of a problem. If there is, flat-out tell them that their enemies are way more powerful than the party is right now OOC. I know that IC problems are best solved IC, though, so don't do that if you have a way to do it IC.


There is no alignment in this setting. What's important is that the paladins believe themselves to be good. In fact, that can be said of the whole church. Their extremist tendencies only strengthen their belief in their cause. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar) As they see it, they are the servants of God. If God's servants do evil in his name, he will strike them down. If they are not struck down, surely they must not have done evil. QED. One wonders what would happen if they were to realise their god doesn't exist.

Ah, I see. That makes sense now.


What are you planning to allow to your players? All official 3.5 material within reason(such as no Incantatrix)?

[Avianmosquito]

Well, good point... but how much is an entire platoon?

Thirty, give or take a dozen.


Are you going to give the party many opportunities to get powerful allies? And by powerful, I mean "influence the battlefield meanfully".

Their mission is clandestine, so no.


Then there shouldn't be much of a problem. If there is, flat-out tell them that their enemies are way more powerful than the party is right now OOC. I know that IC problems are best solved IC, though, so don't do that if you have a way to do it IC.

I do hope the worlds "24th level cleric" followed by "fear and war domains" will suffice. But if I need to explain that no four-man crew is taking out that empire, I will.


Ah, I see. That makes sense now.

If I had to pin it, it's not hard to say where it would fall alignment-wise, though that's my opinion.


What are you planning to allow to your players? All official 3.5 material within reason(such as no Incantatrix)?

I will have to clear non-core personally. The main reason is rules of the setting render a lot of classes useless. There's no alternate planes, for example, so a class built entirely around conjuration is kinda boned.

[danielxcutter]

Thirty, give or take a dozen.

Yeah... by the CR system, that was approximately a CR 7~8 encounter at the least, plus action economy is a thing(especially without the superbuffs that trivialize mooks).


Their mission is clandestine, so no.

So the players will mostly have to do this on their own.

Honestly, I'm not sure if they'll have an easy time. Even at their peak, and with action economy in their favor(if the epic Cleric is the endboss and only him), the fight won't be easy in the slightest. Add just a few allies, and it's hopeless, especially since Clerics are pretty much the best buffers in the entire game.

I believe your players will have to use the "divide and conquer" tactic, in order to survive. Even the emperor is a decent opponent at ECL 15, and the others are even more so. Combine that with lots of paladins... I'd probably have to bring a decently optimized build to the table just not to die in the first round. Like, "abuse Delay Power and Temporal Acceleration" nova level, to use an example I'm familiar with.


I do hope the worlds "24th level cleric" followed by "fear and war domains" will suffice. But if I need to explain that no four-man crew is taking out that empire, I will.

Yeah... I'm not sure if that empire's going down, period. At least not without lots of inside work.


If I had to pin it, it's not hard to say where it would fall alignment-wise, though that's my opinion.

Lawful Evil, I assume? That sounds right.


I will have to clear non-core personally. The main reason is rules of the setting render a lot of classes useless. There's no alternate planes, for example, so a class built entirely around conjuration is kinda boned.

Could you give us those houserules? That could be crucial to some aspects - most healing spells are Conjuration effects, for example.

[Avianmosquito]

Yeah... by the CR system, that was approximately a CR 7~8 encounter at the least, plus action economy is a thing(especially without the superbuffs that trivialize mooks).

Not to mention it was a two-person party and the ranger wasn't willing to go catch thirty bullets with her chest. And according to the thread here, I could have used volley fire and made him even more screwed.


So the players will mostly have to do this on their own.

Which is why the goal of the campaign is just to track down and, if possible, eliminate one of the empire's mystery benefactors, and the only reason this thread exists is because I'm concerned the players will get back from that and try to take down the empire.


Honestly, I'm not sure if they'll have an easy time. Even at their peak, and with action economy in their favor(if the epic Cleric is the endboss and only him), the fight won't be easy in the slightest. Add just a few allies, and it's hopeless, especially since Clerics are pretty much the best buffers in the entire game.

Yeah, if they decide to go try and take out these people they are beyond screwed. That's why the last fight of the campaign is just the assassin, assuming things go as plan (and they never do).


I believe your players will have to use the "divide and conquer" tactic, in order to survive. Even the emperor is a decent opponent at ECL 15, and the others are even more so. Combine that with lots of paladins... I'd probably have to bring a decently optimized build to the table just not to die in the first round. Like, "abuse Delay Power and Temporal Acceleration" nova level, to use an example I'm familiar with.

Especially since Weird is going to be the pontiff's opening move.

Funny thing is, there are twelve other NPCs his level or higher in the world. He IS tied for highest level divine caster, though, with a 24th level druid on the other side of the planet, and a 24th level cleric of Odin.

Worse, the Pontiff is arguably the weakest, and certainly is in a literal sense as his strength is 0 and he relies on a belt of giant strength +6 just to stand under his own power, and even then he's so old and derepit he can barely walk. Granted, even sitting in his throne he can kill entire parties, and he never fights alone because his constitution is 2. (Constantly buffed to 8.)


Yeah... I'm not sure if that empire's going down, period. At least not without lots of inside work.

Perhaps a major natural disaster, massive military action from the UNM (United Nations of Marakiiz, where the PCs are from), economic collapse or popular uprising, but all four of those are unlikely to happen any time soon.


Lawful Evil, I assume? That sounds right.

If I had to give it an alignment, yes.


Could you give us those houserules? That could be crucial to some aspects - most healing spells are Conjuration effects, for example.

Conjuration itself isn't off-limits, just other planes don't exist so summoning doesn't work.

The full rules will be up when I get the chance, but I'm at work.

[danielxcutter]

Not to mention it was a two-person party and the ranger wasn't willing to go catch thirty bullets with her chest. And according to the thread here, I could have used volley fire and made him even more screwed.

LOL :smallbiggrin: I'm sure that "epic-level Cleric" will leave a bigger impact, though.


Which is why the goal of the campaign is just to track down and, if possible, eliminate one of the empire's mystery benefactors, and the only reason this thread exists is because I'm concerned the players will get back from that and try to take down the empire.

Oh, I see. Might want to mention that OOC just in case, I guess?


Yeah, if they decide to go try and take out these people they are beyond screwed. That's why the last fight of the campaign is just the assassin, assuming things go as plan (and they never do).

This is why you make backup plans. And you still usually fail, but whatever.

Seriously, I'm not sure if the Assassin's going to be easy either. UMD is a powerful skill, and the Assassin list has some surprisingly good spells.


Especially since Weird is going to be the pontiff's opening move.

Funny thing is, there are twelve other NPCs his level or higher in the world. He IS tied for highest level divine caster, though, with a 24th level druid on the other side of the planet, and a 24th level cleric of Odin.

Worse, the Pontiff is arguably the weakest, and certainly is in a literal sense as his strength is 0 and he relies on a belt of giant strength +6 just to stand under his own power, and even then he's so old and derepit he can barely walk. Granted, even sitting in his throne he can kill entire parties, and he never fights alone because his constitution is 2. (Constantly buffed to 8.)

I believe the apporpriate response is a "What." flatter than a Gelatinous Cube that was squished by a Tarrasque.

Still, caster. They're probably going to die pretty fast if they fight him.


Perhaps a major natural disaster, massive military action from the UNM (United Nations of Marakiiz, where the PCs are from), economic collapse or popular uprising, but all four of those are unlikely to happen any time soon.

You're talking about PCs. If they can think of something, they'll do it.


If I had to give it an alignment, yes.

Sounds right to me.


Conjuration itself isn't off-limits, just other planes don't exist so summoning doesn't work.

The full rules will be up when I get the chance, but I'm at work.

Ah, okay.

[Avianmosquito]

LOL :smallbiggrin: I'm sure that "epic-level Cleric" will leave a bigger impact, though.

11 damage a bullet vs full party save or die... Hmmm... Tough call.


Oh, I see. Might want to mention that OOC just in case, I guess?

Well, the quest giver will spell it out pretty explicitly.


This is why you make backup plans. And you still usually fail, but whatever.

I know, right? Last campaign ended because my party went out of its way to fight a CR 15 with a two-man 13th level party. It wasn't even in the same room as them, it was just meant to be paranoia fuel.


Seriously, I'm not sure if the Assassin's going to be easy either. UMD is a powerful skill, and the Assassin list has some surprisingly good spells.

Also poison, death attack and 10d6 sneak attack.


I believe the apporpriate response is a "What." flatter than a Gelatinous Cube that was squished by a Tarrasque.

Remember when I said he's been head of his religion for 1400 years? It's 1412, and he founded it at age 54. He should have been dead so long ago he can't remember ever having lived without magical assistance. He also can't remember life before being the Pontiff, what his real name is, or a time where his religion didn't dominate millions of square miles.

Or was the "what" directed at how many 24+ characters inhabit this world? Because half of that is the fault of a single organization on the opposite side of the world that has seven of them, including the highest level character in the world. (The chief sentinel is a 30th level fighter.)


Still, caster. They're probably going to die pretty fast if they fight him.

In the first round. Weird with DC 33 tends to TPK, and since he has 10th, 11th and 12th level spell slots and no epic spells he's using weird and power word kill for all four.


You're talking about PCs. If they can think of something, they'll do it.

I think those might be outside their control.

[danielxcutter]

11 damage a bullet vs full party save or die... Hmmm... Tough call.

Also, Weird is countered by the various ways of gaining immunity to mental-affecting abilities, such as Mind Blank. And if you can get access to any of them and you don't, you're nuts.

Even disregarding that, Weird requires two failed saves. The save DCs are going to be stellar, true, but if you want 9th-level save-or-dies, Implosion is better. Even Power Word Kill(from the War domain) is better, since it's a no-save against valid targets.


Well, the quest giver will spell it out pretty explicitly.

Are you playing with a group you already know, or are you planning to recruit people for a PbP? Most players aren't that impulsive, I believe.


I know, right? Last campaign ended because my party went out of its way to fight a CR 15 with a two-man 13th level party. It wasn't even in the same room as them, it was just meant to be paranoia fuel.

Oh come on... It's not a terribly higher-level encounter, but still. Being 9 levels lower than the CR might be a bigger deterent, but then again it might not if your players are always that suicidically reckless.


Also poison, death attack and 10d6 sneak attack.

If you want to pimp him out more, I highly suggest the Assassin's Handbook (https://web.archive.org/web/20161120203203/http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8273.0), the Poison Handbook (https://web.archive.org/web/20170108043044/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=46jvrg2g3sb1ejfdi01os236h5&topic=4854.0), and of course, the Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6).

Try not to go overboard, though. Those types of characters can deal huge amounts of damage in the right situations, and you probably don't want to one-shot a player by accident. Try more defensive options, rather than damage.


Remember when I said he's been head of his religion for 1400 years? It's 1412, and he founded it at age 54. He should have been dead so long ago he can't remember ever having lived without magical assistance. He also can't remember life before being the Pontiff, what his real name is, or a time where his religion didn't dominate millions of square miles.

...Okay, my "What." should have been so flat it was two-dimensional, then. Is this just DM fiat or are there mechanics for that? I'm sure there are ways of gaining immortality by both RAW and RAI...


In the first round. Weird with DC 33 tends to TPK, and since he has 10th, 11th and 12th level spell slots and no epic spells he's using weird and power word kill for all four.

So you're giving him epic feats, just not Epic Spellcasting?


I think those might be outside their control.

Well, you'd be surprised at what really optimized PCs can do, but it doesn't sound like your players are big munchkins.

[Avianmosquito]

Also, Weird is countered by the various ways of gaining immunity to mental-affecting abilities, such as Mind Blank. And if you can get access to any of them and you don't, you're nuts.

This is a good point, but a 12th level party is likely boned anyway. 15th is probably boned too, just not because of weird.


Even disregarding that, Weird requires two failed saves. The save DCs are going to be stellar, true, but if you want 9th-level save-or-dies, Implosion is better. Even Power Word Kill(from the War domain) is better, since it's a no-save against valid targets.

He has kill, and will use it if weird fails. Also, if you only make the second save against weird it still does 3d6 damage and stuns for 1d6 rounds.


Are you playing with a group you already know, or are you planning to recruit people for a PbP? Most players aren't that impulsive, I believe.

Here, via PbP.


Oh come on... It's not a terribly higher-level encounter, but still. Being 9 levels lower than the CR might be a bigger deterent, but then again it might not if your players are always that suicidically reckless.

One was, he just forced my daughter's hand.


If you want to pimp him out more, I highly suggest the Assassin's Handbook (https://web.archive.org/web/20161120203203/http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8273.0), the Poison Handbook (https://web.archive.org/web/20170108043044/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=46jvrg2g3sb1ejfdi01os236h5&topic=4854.0), and of course, the Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6).

Try not to go overboard, though. Those types of characters can deal huge amounts of damage in the right situations, and you probably don't want to one-shot a player by accident. Try more defensive options, rather than damage.

He's already possibly too strong, depending on party level. Let's give the party a chance.


...Okay, my "What." should have been so flat it was two-dimensional, then. Is this just DM fiat or are there mechanics for that? I'm sure there are ways of gaining immortality by both RAW and RAI...

He just has a strength lower than the penalty for his age, and the setting's only true age manipulation is arcane, not divine. (Well, technically druids can cast it too.) He relies on just warding against all potential causes of death. Disease, poison, even accidents and violence, using a magic amulet to boost his CON by 6 and a belt to boost his strength by the same. He can stay alive, but he is still physically 1466.


So you're giving him epic feats, just not Epic Spellcasting?

Epic replacement HR, allows you to keep gaining slots, saves, bonus feats, sneak attack and other routine class features.


Well, you'd be surprised at what really optimized PCs can do, but it doesn't sound like your players are big munchkins.

Name one thing 15th level players can do a 24th level cleric can't put a stop to, even if he's 1466 years old.

[danielxcutter]

This is a good point, but a 12th level party is likely boned anyway. 15th is probably boned too, just not because of weird.

My point is: don't rely on *just* mind-affecting spells. Fire Storm sounds nice; it's the best blasting spell that Clerics have, period. Well, except the fire part, of course, but there are ways around that.


He has kill, and will use it if weird fails. Also, if you only make the second save against weird it still does 3d6 damage and stuns for 1d6 rounds.

I see. I personally think Implosion's better, but in the context of your intended game, it does the job.


Here, via PbP.

Make sure your players know what they're getting into, then. Also, try to determine if the players you get are like that before you make assumptions.


One was, he just forced the other's hand.

Talk about bad apples...


He's already possibly too strong, depending on party level. Let's give the party a chance.

I always find it easier to start from a high optimization level and then tone it down, but that's just me.


He just has a strength lower than the penalty for his age, and the setting's only true age manipulation is arcane, not divine. He relies on just warding against all potential causes of death. Disease, poison, even accidents and violence, using a magic amulet to boost his CON by 6 and a belt to boost his strength by the same. He can stay alive, but he is still physically 1466.

So... fiat?


Epic replacement HR, allows you to keep gaining slots, saves, bonus feats, sneak attack and other routine class features.

Could you explain the details of this later, after you get back from work? This sounds important.


Name one thing 15th level players can do a 24th level cleric can't put a stop to, even if he's 1466 years old.

Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu. :smalltongue:

Kidding, of course, but good point. He can't be everywhere, though.

[Avianmosquito]

My point is: don't rely on *just* mind-affecting spells. Fire Storm sounds nice; it's the best blasting spell that Clerics have, period. Well, except the fire part, of course, but there are ways around that.

I see. I personally think Implosion's better, but in the context of your intended game, it does the job.


He's got plenty of blasting power. Mass harm, 240 points of negative energy, is something a cleric his level can spam. Sure, it can't kill, but he has plenty of finishers he can quicken. For example, any quickened mass inflict will turn mass harm into a TPK. Death ward stops it, but my point is he has a lot of options.


Make sure your players know what they're getting into, then. Also, try to determine if the players you get are like that before you make assumptions.

Just being prepared.


So... fiat?

If you want to call it that, sure, but that is a viable method of living a stupidly long time.


Could you explain the details of this later, after you get back from work? This sounds important.

It's not complicated. Formulaic recurrent benefits, continue as far as you level, period. IE: Rogues get another 1d6 to their sneak attack every odd-numbered level. The Sentinels of K'Macthia have a 28th level rogue, she has a 14d6 sneak attack. Rogue HD are d6, she has 28d6(+56). BAB for a rogue is 3/4, so she has +21. Fortitude saves are 1/3, she has +9. Simple.


Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu. :smalltongue:

Kidding, of course, but good point. He can't be everywhere, though.

No, but he can send his champion, assassin, other high level priests, any of the royal guard (again, 120 9th+ paladins) or regular military (most are 3rd-5th level) after them as well. The HEM (Holy Empire of Marakiiz) has a population of over 6 million, and a military of over 300,000 combatants and 450,000 logistical personnel. That's pretty overwhelming force.

Of course, if the empire ever entered peacetime its economy would collapse... Still, no real chance of that happenning any time soon.

[danielxcutter]

He's got plenty of blasting power. Mass harm, 240 points of negative energy, is something a cleric his level can spam. Sure, it can't kill, but he has plenty of finishers he can quicken. For example, any quickened mass inflict will turn mass harm into a TPK. Death ward stops it, but my point is he has a lot of options.

There's a Mass Harm spell on the Cleric list? The only one I found was non-core and it doesn't even say that Clerics get access to that as well, though I could have missed that.

[quote]Just being prepared.

Better safe than sorry, I guess.


If you want to call it that, sure, but that is a viable method of living a stupidly long time.

Well, there's a thing called maximum age, but since when has that been a factor in a game?


It's not complicated. Formulaic recurrent benefits, continue as far as you level, period. IE: Rogues get another 1d6 to their sneak attack every odd-numbered level. The Sentinels of K'Macthia have a 28th level rogue, she has a 14d6 sneak attack. Rogue HD are d6, she has 28d6(+56). BAB for a rogue is 3/4, so she has +21. Fortitude saves are 1/3, she has +9. Simple.

Hmm... do iteratives cap at four? Also what about spell slots?


No, but he can send his champion, assassin, other high level priests, any of the royal guard (again, 120 9th+ paladins) or regular military (most are 3rd-5th level) after them as well. The HEM (Holy Empire of Marakiiz) has a population of over 6 million, and a military of over 300,000 combatants and 450,000 logistical personnel. That's pretty overwhelming force.

A bit overkill, perhaps, but I see what you mean. I hope you let the players optimize a bit, though, because one mistake could result in them fighting literal armies of elite mooks.



Have you started recruitment yet? The game sounds fun.

[Avianmosquito]

There's a Mass Harm spell on the Cleric list? The only one I found was non-core and it doesn't even say that Clerics get access to that as well, though I could have missed that.

Well, look at that, you're right. Good thing I can add it.


Well, there's a thing called maximum age, but since when has that been a factor in a game?

The setting's age categories are in the house rules. His is 90+ for a human, but it is definitely not a physically capable age category.


Hmm... do iteratives cap at four? Also what about spell slots?

Maybe my brain is off since I just had my lunch wine (bartender, it's allowed) but "iteratives" didn't register. Spell slots cap quick already so only new spell levels increase it and those are still every odd level. Since there's no spells to fill them they are only useful for spamming power and metamagic, though of course there's a certain 25th level sorceress who loves her a good quickened meteor swarm.


A bit overkill, perhaps, but I see what you mean. I hope you let the players optimize a bit, though, because one mistake could result in them fighting literal armies of elite mooks.

Such is always the threat when dealing with large empires.


Have you started recruitment yet? The game sounds fun.

In the morning, the recruitment thread (and setting rules) will be up. I just get off at 2 and will need some sleep.

[danielxcutter]

Well, look at that, you're right. Good thing I can add it.

I just didn't know if you'd added that as a houserule or if Clerics get that spell, because my D&D knowledge is limited. Especially in the area of Cleric spells besides the really good ones *coughmiraclecough*. Sorry if I sounded rude.


The setting's age categories are in the house rules. His is 90+ for a human, but it is definitely not a physically capable age category.

Oh, that makes sense then. I keep forgetting that you're adding a bunch of minor house rules.


Maybe my brain is off since I just had my lunch wine (bartender, it's allowed) but "iteratives" didn't register. Spell slots cap quick already so only new spell levels increase it and those are still every odd level. Since there's no spells to fill them they are only useful for spamming power and metamagic, though of course there's a certain 25th level sorceress who loves her a good quickened meteor swarm.

You know, iterative attacks? Does the BAB from epic levels also grant more attacks?

As for the quickened Meteor Swarm, how? Does she have Rapid Metamagic or something like that?


Such is always the threat when dealing with large empires.

True, but the average level of said empire is higher than the norm for even large empires. One slip, and TPK. And I'm not just talking about suicidal tactics either.


In the morning, the recruitment thread (and setting rules) will be up. I just get off at 2 and will need some sleep.

Okay, I understand. What timezone are you in?

[Avianmosquito]

I just didn't know if you'd added that as a houserule or if Clerics get that spell, because my D&D knowledge is limited. Especially in the area of Cleric spells besides the really good ones *coughmiraclecough*. Sorry if I sounded rude.

No, it's okay. I really thought mass harm was core, which shows how well I know the cleric spell list.


Oh, that makes sense then. I keep forgetting that you're adding a bunch of minor house rules.

Some aren't so minor, this is a full campaign setting so some changes are serious. And it's 80+. I hate touch screens.


You know, iterative attacks? Does the BAB from epic levels also grant more attacks?

Oh, that. Yes, it does. Kinda has to, to counter the blasting power of epic casters.


As for the quickened Meteor Swarm, how? Does she have Rapid Metamagic or something like that?

Metamagic and 13th level slots. Also, fun fact, she invented the age manipulation spell for the setting and developed it off baleful polymorph and transformation, which is why it's sor/wiz/drd 6.


True, but the average level of said empire is higher than the norm for even large empires. One slip, and TPK. And I'm not just talking about suicidal tactics either.

Yeah, I kinda hate 1st level characters so Aelsif rarely uses them. Basically, 1st level is for babies and worthless pampered bluebloods, everybody else (even most pampered bluebloods) has at least SOME life experience.


Okay, I understand. What timezone are you in?

GMT -8. It's 11:35 right now.

[danielxcutter]

No, it's okay. I really thought mass harm was core, which shows how well I know the cleric spell list.

Hey, you're not the only one who makes stupid mistakes. Once I thought Rakshasa were only ECL 7.


Some aren't so minor, this is a full campaign setting so some changes are serious. And it's 80+. I hate touch screens.

I see. This seems interesting.


Oh, that. Yes, it does. Kinda has to, to counter the blasting power of epic casters.

So if you have BAB +50 or something you get eleven iterative attacks?


Metamagic and 13th level slots. Also, fun fact, she invented the age manipulation spell for the setting and developed it off baleful polymorph and transformation, which is why it's sor/wiz/drd 6.

No, the question was about metamagic and Sorcerer casting. Spontaneous casters take a full round to cast a metamagic-enhanced spell without things like Rapid Metamagic. They can't even use Quicken Spell without a way to cast standard action spells like prepared casters.


Yeah, I kinda hate 1st level characters so Aelsif rarely uses them. Basically, 1st level is for babies and worthless pampered bluebloods, everybody else (even most pampered bluebloods) has at least SOME life experience.

What level does the campaign start at? I suppose the military can be taken care of fairly easily for mid-level characters, but the royal guard is a different matter.


GMT -8. It's 11:35 right now.

Yeesh, you work late, don't you?

[Avianmosquito]

So if you have BAB +50 or something you get eleven iterative attacks?

In theory, but there's no way to get to level 50. The highest CR monsters are 30.


No, the question was about metamagic and Sorcerer casting. Spontaneous casters take a full round to cast a metamagic-enhanced spell without things like Rapid Metamagic. They can't even use Quicken Spell without a way to cast standard action spells like prepared casters.

Doesn't the fact that she can use quickened spells make it self evident that she does?


What level does the campaign start at? I suppose the military can be taken care of fairly easily for mid-level characters, but the royal guard is a different matter.

3rd.


Yeesh, you work late, don't you?

See also: Bartender.

[danielxcutter]

In theory, but there's no way to get to level 50. The highest CR monsters are 30.

CR 30? Like what? To be honest, the only example I can think of if a Pseudotarrasque, which as the name indicates is a Tarrasque with the ELH version of the Pseudonatural template.

Yes, that actually is CR 30. A very powerful CR 30.


Doesn't the fact that she can use quickened spells make it self evident that she does?

I meant: Is this a houserule, or does she have Rapid Metamagic or something like that? Sorry for the misconception.


3rd.

Just enough for a proper multiclass build then. For some reason single-class builds don't appeal to me that much.


See also: Bartender.

See also: Failing a Wisdom check.

[Avianmosquito]

CR 30? Like what? To be honest, the only example I can think of if a Pseudotarrasque, which as the name indicates is a Tarrasque with the ELH version of the Pseudonatural template.

Yes, that actually is CR 30. A very powerful CR 30.

Four unkillable uniques. Like K'Macthia, who is entombed on the far side of the planet and is so alarmingly powerful a legion of 3,000 soldiers 9th level and up (including 8 above level 20) is present to make sure she stays contained and recontain her if need be, and she's still slowly changing the world while laying unconscious with a building through her chest.


I meant: Is this a houserule, or does she have Rapid Metamagic or something like that? Sorry for the misconception.

Isn't Rapid Spell from CD, and Quicken Spell core? Why would I need a house rule? Am I missing something?

[khadgar567]

Is sorcerer have name cuz i am intriqued by the bastard( by the way is he or she we are talking)

[danielxcutter]

Four unkillable uniques. Like K'Macthia, who is entombed on the far side of the planet and is so alarmingly powerful a legion of 3,000 soldiers 9th level and up (including 8 above level 20) is present to make sure she stays contained and recontain her if need be, and she's still slowly changing the world while laying unconscious with a building through her chest.

Oh... :smalleek: What is she? One of the Elder Evils with additional class levels on top of that or something? An advanced Abomination? Or something you made yourself?


Isn't Rapid Spell from CD? Why would I need a house rule? Am I missing something?

Sorry, this time I forgot that you don't have to houserule everything.

Yeah, failed that Wis check too.

[Avianmosquito]

Oh... :smalleek: What is she? One of the Elder Evils with additional class levels on top of that or something? An advanced Abomination? Or something you made yourself?

She's a great old one.


Sorry, this time I forgot that you don't have to houserule everything.

Yeah, failed that Wis check too.

It happens.

[danielxcutter]

She's a great old one.

Um... I meant in terms of mechanics. Homebrewed then?


It happens.

A bit more than usual today. :smallannoyed:

[Avianmosquito]

Um... I meant in terms of mechanics. Homebrewed then?

She'd have to be, wouldn't she?


A bit more than usual today. :smallannoyed:

Try changing dice.


Is sorcerer have name cuz i am intriqued by the bastard( by the way is he or she we are talking)

Her name is Kirei, she's from an island nation just off Sohei's eastern coast, she's a sea spirit folk and she's been a small child for three hundred years (she's actually over 700 (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReallySevenHundredYearsOld)) because she made a spell to control age and she likes it that way. She is also very lucky her party looks past that particular quirk, even if it is only because she is the world's highest level sorceress and her magic keeps the rest of the party young as well. (Though not as youg as her, obviously.)

[khadgar567]

Her name is Kirei, she's from an island nation just off Sohei's eastern coast, she's a sea spirit folk and she's been a small child for three hundred years (she's actually over 700 (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReallySevenHundredYearsOld)) because she made a spell to control age and she likes it that way. She is also very lucky her party looks past that particular quirk, even if it is only because she is the world's highest level sorceress and her magic keeps the rest of the party young as well. (Though not as youg as her, obviously.)
Is there a chance her surname would be kotomine

[Avianmosquito]

Is there a chance her surname would be kotomine

No, and I'm pretty sure I just missed a reference.

[Mordaedil]

Kirei just means "beautiful" in Japanese, it's about as common name as Bella in Italy or Andrew in England.

[Avianmosquito]

Kirei just means "beautiful" in Japanese, it's about as common name as Bella in Italy or Andrew in England.

It's unisex, too. Which makes it even more popular.

[danielxcutter]

It's unisex, too. Which makes it even more popular.

Google says that Kirei Kotomine is a character from TYPE-MOON. I believe that was what khadgar meant.

[Avianmosquito]

Google says that Kirei Kotomine is a character from TYPE-MOON. I believe that was what khadgar meant.

Yeah, specifically Fate/Stay Night, which I know nothing about.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, specifically Fate/Stay Night, which I know nothing about.

Neither do I, aside from what I've seen on various TvTropes examples.

[Avianmosquito]

Neither do I, aside from what I've seen on various TvTropes examples.

And yet we're talking about it, because I gave a character a very common Japanese name that seemed to fit her character. Funny how things work.

[Mordaedil]

As someone familiar with it, you are probably better off not knowing.

But some people get really defensive/obsessive about it.

[danielxcutter]

As someone familiar with it, you are probably better off not knowing.

But some people get really defensive/obsessive about it.

Why? Bad fandom? :smallconfused: I'm in the Undertale fandom; how much worse can it be?

[Avianmosquito]

Why? Bad fandom? :smallconfused: I'm in the Undertale fandom; how much worse can it be?

Hey, Undertale fandom still isn't nearly as bad as the Steven Universe fandom.

[khadgar567]

Hey, Undertale fandom still isn't nearly as bad as the Steven Universe fandom.
Its hatd to find quality fanon and there is lot of weak fanon in internet

[danielxcutter]

Hey, Undertale fandom still isn't nearly as bad as the Steven Universe fandom.

To be honest, my experience with fandoms in general is just my Tumblr friend group, which is comprised of very thoughtful people who are good examples of the positive side. I haven't seen much of the bad parts... though I've heard a lot about of it. I guess you've seen some of those.

Also at this point it seems there are more people complaining about the Undertale fandom than there are Undertale fans worth complaining about lol.

[Avianmosquito]

Oh, side note, my copy of Oriental Adventures (3e) is missing. Anybody know a good online copy? I don't need it for this campaign, but I might for a future one.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, side note, my copy of Oriental Adventures (3e) is missing. Anybody know a good online copy? I don't need it for this campaign, but I might for a future one.

Google is your friend; most sourcebooks have been converted into PDFs. Including, as my search has just unearthed, OA.

[Avianmosquito]

Google is your friend; most sourcebooks have been converted into PDFs. Including, as my search has just unearthed, OA.

Yeah, but if I had just done that, I couldn't have used this to get us back to D&D.

Oh, and earlier you asked about content, suffice to say a lot of Oriental Adventures content is used in Aelsif for the continent of Sohei, especially the eastern part of it. If you want to use an Oriental Adventures race or class, you're probably good to do so. Same goes for most Complete sourcebooks, though not all.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, but if I had just done that, I couldn't have used this to get us back to D&D.

Oh, and earlier you asked about content, suffice to say a lot of Oriental Adventures content is used in Aelsif for the continent of Sohei, especially the eastern part of it. If you want to use an Oriental Adventures race or class, you're probably good to do so. Same goes for most Complete sourcebooks, though not all.

I wonder if a Sorcadin would be possible?

[Avianmosquito]

I wonder if a Sorcadin would be possible?

There are paladins and sorcerers, so yes. And clearly I play fast and loose with my paladins, since I have a crazy paladin riding a lion, but clear mounts with me anyway.

[danielxcutter]

There are paladins and sorcerers, so yes. And clearly I play fast and loose with my paladins, since I have a crazy paladin riding a lion.

So the Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 thing is possible then? Hope there's a non-jerk deity related to the arcane.

[Avianmosquito]

So the Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 thing is possible then? Hope there's a non-jerk deity related to the arcane.

That seems unnecesarily complicated.

[danielxcutter]

That seems unnecesarily complicated.

Welcome to the wonderful world of arcane gishes. :smalltongue:

That build is a bit complicated, yes, but it hits the "benchmark" of BAB +16 and 9th level spells at ECL 20. Any less than this and you have trouble keeping up. And there's plenty of Charisma synergy, too. It's quite playable, too, without being overwhelming.

Edit: I didn't come up with this; it's a bit of a classic build on the char-op forums. "Sorcadin" refers to this build, not just any Paladin/Sorcerer multiclass.

[Mordaedil]

Why? Bad fandom? :smallconfused: I'm in the Undertale fandom; how much worse can it be?

All fandoms are bad, my friend, some of just recognize that it doesn't identify us.

Type Moon fandom is a strange one, because they had some alright visual novels, some really bad ones, a bunch of anime made, one story written by Gen Urobuchi of Madoka Magica fame, a spin-off where the youngest girl character becomes a magical girl and goes on exceedingly fetishist adventures that gets progressively more lewd the further you get and the fans can't agree within their own circles on what is a horrible abomination and what is excellent about the franchises that this stuff has spawned.

And then there is Carnival Phantasm.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg2LZ4AwyEU

[danielxcutter]

Will this spoil my dinner I'm having now?

[Avianmosquito]

Welcome to the wonderful world of arcane gishes. :smalltongue:

That build is a bit complicated, yes, but it hits the "benchmark" of BAB +16 and 9th level spells at ECL 20. Any less than this and you have trouble keeping up. And there's plenty of Charisma synergy, too. It's quite playable, too, without being overwhelming.

Edit: I didn't come up with this; it's a bit of a classic build on the char-op forums. "Sorcadin" refers to this build, not just any Paladin/Sorcerer multiclass.

Oh. Well, then I misunderstood you.

[danielxcutter]

Oh. Well, then I misunderstood you.

We all learn. I learned most of my D&D knowledge thanks to this forum and the SRD. And not everyone knows all the lingo; every so often I hear one I don't know.

[J-H]

The cleric is likely strong enough for combat, but a 12th-14th level party could assassinate him successfully, using Core only. Disallowing all the splats simply means that the mundanes in the party have fewer fun options to play with.

The pontiff presumably sleeps, since he's still human. His Fort save is 13 (14 base -1 CON) plus any Resistance items he's wearing. If attacked when asleep, he will auto-fail a save against a coup de grace that deals more than 40-something damage. That's pretty trivial for a mid-level rogue/assassin to achieve with sneak attack + death attack dice, and will stack with a Death Attack Fort save and a Fort save against a poisoned weapon using some exotic poison (or, heck, Mummy Rot!).

All the assassin needs to do is get close at night.
+Invisible Wizard teleports or dimension doors invisible assassin (use some form of scrying ahead of time, targeting "pontiff's bed" or "pontiff's nightcap bottle" instead of him to avoid the hefty will save, or acquire line of sight to a window/door via flight/polymorph/boosted Spot check)
+Mundane disguises + hat of disguise + polymorph are all used to replace a servant
+Dominate Person on a servant to unlock a door and/or "give him special wine"
+Display a "hall pass" or "urgent message" to the guards that's inscribed with Symbol of Weakness, Symbol of Stunning, etc.
+Teleport/DDoor to two floors above the pontiff, since Dimensional Lock has a 20' radius, and then Stone Shape or Wood Warp or go Ethereal (Blink/Greater Blink) through the floors. Or, simply "Rock to Lava" the ceiling on top of him.

A solo wizard could simply use Silenced (via lesser rod) Mind Fog and then Hold Person on the pontiff, strip him of protective items, and then Dominate him.

...
If the party tries hard enough, they can kill anything that sleeps and doesn't have boosted (dragon-like) senses, or multiple guards literally in the room watching him sleep.

They probably won't, and it'll still require better planning than I've seen most players do most of the time.... but if they do, just have a plan for what happens next and roll with it.

The problem for a group of 11th-13th level players isn't any one foe; it's the institutions. Unless they take special matters to prevent it, someone may be able to hit the pontiff with True Resurrection anyway.

By the way, where are the (Core) Maruts who are trying to kill this guy for living 10x his natural lifespan?

[Mordaedil]

Will this spoil my dinner I'm having now?

No, Carnival Phantasm is universally enjoyable, where your enjoyment is only heightened by getting the references, but they are entirely optional.

[Avianmosquito]

The cleric is likely strong enough for combat, but a 12th-14th level party could assassinate him successfully, using Core only. Disallowing all the splats simply means that the mundanes in the party have fewer fun options to play with.

The pontiff presumably sleeps, since he's still human. His Fort save is 13 (14 base -1 CON) plus any Resistance items he's wearing. If attacked when asleep, he will auto-fail a save against a coup de grace that deals more than 40-something damage. That's pretty trivial for a mid-level rogue/assassin to achieve with sneak attack + death attack dice, and will stack with a Death Attack Fort save and a Fort save against a poisoned weapon using some exotic poison (or, heck, Mummy Rot!).

Unless he has taken simple precautions and placed abjurations and divinations with permanancy to protect himself from scry and die tactics.

Also, he's got a cloak of resistance +5 and the pontiff's necklace is an amulet of health +6 with periapts of health (which is, confusingly, disease immunity) and proof against poison on the chain.

The man is epic level and fabulously wealthy, he's going to have a LOT of magic items.


All the assassin needs to do is get close at night.
+Invisible Wizard teleports or dimension doors invisible assassin (use some form of scrying ahead of time, targeting "pontiff's bed" or "pontiff's nightcap bottle" instead of him to avoid the hefty will save, or acquire line of sight to a window/door via flight/polymorph/boosted Spot check)

Scrying and teleport can both be blocked by abjuration.


+Mundane disguises + hat of disguise + polymorph are all used to replace a servant

This might work, but boy would you need some stupidly high skills.


+Dominate Person on a servant to unlock a door and/or "give him special wine"

His religion only allows alcohol during communion and he's immune to poison.


+Display a "hall pass" or "urgent message" to the guards that's inscribed with Symbol of Weakness, Symbol of Stunning, etc.

Will save of a 9th level paladin: +3
Ability mod: +3
Cloak of resistance: +3
Strong will: +2
Total: +11

HP of a royal guard paladin: 9d10+36(85)

Go for it. You can only stun one and most spells are facing a pretty solid save.


+Teleport/DDoor to two floors above the pontiff, since Dimensional Lock has a 20' radius, and then Stone Shape or Wood Warp or go Ethereal (Blink/Greater Blink) through the floors. Or, simply "Rock to Lava" the ceiling on top of him.

Except you can't teleport in, as anybody with a brain has abjuration in place, and even if you break in he'll be notified by the sound of you being remotely firestruck for casting arcane magic inside the palace. (Yes, he has traps that do that.)


A solo wizard could simply use Silenced (via lesser rod) Mind Fog and then Hold Person on the pontiff, strip him of protective items, and then Dominate him.

Dominate. On an epic level cleric. Who has +35 will. Have fun with that.


...
If the party tries hard enough, they can kill anything that sleeps and doesn't have boosted (dragon-like) senses, or multiple guards literally in the room watching him sleep.

Or good planning for this eventuality. I mean, he knows people try to assassinate him, it happens all the time.


They probably won't, and it'll still require better planning than I've seen most players do most of the time.... but if they do, just have a plan for what happens next and roll with it.

I already have a plan. So does the old man who sleeps under a dozen abjurations in a palace rigged to flamestrike arcane casters.


The problem for a group of 11th-13th level players isn't any one foe; it's the institutions. Unless they take special matters to prevent it, someone may be able to hit the pontiff with True Resurrection anyway.

No resurrection.


By the way, where are the (Core) Maruts who are trying to kill this guy for living 10x his natural lifespan?

If they existed, they'd be obliterated by his guard. 120. 9th level. Paladins.

[khadgar567]

Unless he has taken simple precautions and placed abjurations and divinations with permanancy to protect himself from scry and die tactics.

Also, he's got a cloak of resistance +5 and the pontiff's necklace is an amulet of health +6 with periapts of health (which is, confusingly, disease immunity) and proof against poison on the chain.

The man is epic level and fabulously wealthy, he's going to have a LOT of magic items.



Scrying and teleport can both be blocked by abjuration.



This might work, but boy would you need some stupidly high skills.



His religion only allows alcohol during communion and he's immune to poison.



Will save of a 9th level paladin: +3
Ability mod: +3
Cloak of resistance: +3
Strong will: +2
Total: +11

HP of a royal guard paladin: 9d10+36(85)

Go for it. You can only stun one and most spells are facing a pretty solid save.



Except you can't teleport in, as anybody with a brain has abjuration in place, and even if you break in he'll be notified by the sound of you being remotely firestruck for casting arcane magic inside the palace. (Yes, he has traps that do that.)



Dominate. On an epic level cleric. Who has +35 will. Have fun with that.



Or good planning for this eventuality. I mean, he knows people try to assassinate him, it happens all the time.



I already have a plan. So does the old man who sleeps under a dozen abjurations in a palace rigged to flamestrike arcane casters.



No resurrection.



If they existed, they'd be obliterated by his guard. 120. 9th level. Paladins.
new idea crack dimensions until you find marhut ans summon him

[Avianmosquito]

new idea crack dimensions until you find marhut ans summon him

Reminder that there's no alternate planes in 3...

[danielxcutter]

Just remember one thing... don't punish your players for doing something you didn't plan for.

[J-H]

I am assuming that you're using core only as mentioned above.

Unless he has taken simple precautions and placed abjurations and divinations with permanancy to protect himself from scry and die tactics.
Permanency is a wizard spell. If arcane spellcasters get auto-nuked in the palace, he must be using Miracle to emulate it. That's a lot of XP burned. Without Epic spells, and with Widen not being in core, he only has access to Dimensional Lock, which is a 20' radius 1 day/level spell, which only covers about 6 rooms of space. If he's warding a big place with a bunch of guards, king, etc., then he's burning several 8th level slots per day.
OR he can use Forbiddance, but at that point anyone who differs in alignment is going to get burned simply walking into the palace.

Miraculously permanency'd Obscure Object on a bunch of stuff in the palace?


The man is epic level and fabulously wealthy, he's going to have a LOT of magic items.
True, and I assume he's allowed to use items taken from illegal arcane casters.



Scrying and teleport can both be blocked by abjuration.
Dimensional Lock



This might work, but boy would you need some stupidly high skills.
Yep...it's a good thing Paladins don't get a lot of skill points! I think Forbiddance is the big barrier here, as long as the servant is of the correct alignment and doesn't normally need the password.



Except you can't teleport in, as anybody with a brain has abjuration in place, and even if you break in he'll be notified by the sound of you being remotely firestruck for casting arcane magic inside the palace. (Yes, he has traps that do that.)
Nasty. You may want to make some of these details publicly available to the party if they start researching it, to prevent an inadvertent TPK.



Dominate. On an epic level cleric. Who has +35 will. Have fun with that.
Base 14+12 WIS assuming 18+levelups+tome)+5 item+2 feat = 33? I was thinking that being asleep gave a penalty to saving throws, but I can't find it. CDG it is if he's asleep, unless they have a way to remove his Protection from Evil and then slip some sort of possession creature into him.


Another option would be getting 1,000' away from the palace and hitting it with four or five castings of Earthquake in a row. The damage is additive and the second or third should bring the place down. Pontiff might survive if he's got a way to get out via magic, but most of the guard would probably be trapped in the collapse. Pair with Storm of Vengeance to reduce options for escape.
That's a higher-level option with a lot of collateral damage, though, so most parties won't employ it.

D&D: Where you tell players "You can't do that!" and they immediately work to disprove you.
Thus, the value of "You shouldn't do that" by emphasizing the collapse and anarchy that would ensue...

[Avianmosquito]

I am assuming that you're using core only as mentioned above.

I didn't say core only, I said non-core had to be cleared.


Permanency is a wizard spell. If arcane spellcasters get auto-nuked in the palace, he must be using Miracle to emulate it. That's a lot of XP burned. Without Epic spells, and with Widen not being in core, he only has access to Dimensional Lock, which is a 20' radius 1 day/level spell, which only covers about 6 rooms of space. If he's warding a big place with a bunch of guards, king, etc., then he's burning several 8th level slots per day.
OR he can use Forbiddance, but at that point anyone who differs in alignment is going to get burned simply walking into the palace.

Except I already mentioned there's no alignments in this setting, so that issue doesn't apply. Instead, it just prevents travel and it is already permanent. With 1400 years he's covered the entire palace district in forbiddance. High cost, sure, but how much do you think that matters, really?


Miraculously permanency'd Obscure Object on a bunch of stuff in the palace?

Just his room.


True, and I assume he's allowed to use items taken from illegal arcane casters.

Of course. Why would he not?


Yep...it's a good thing Paladins don't get a lot of skill points! I think Forbiddance is the big barrier here, as long as the servant is of the correct alignment and doesn't normally need the password.

There's also a lot of experts, the actual servants. Also fighters (the jannisaries), clerics and favored souls (clergy), rogues and rangers (special forces), and more paladins, rogues and favored souls (religious police).


Nasty. You may want to make some of these details publicly available to the party if they start researching it, to prevent an inadvertent TPK.

He also rigged the entire palace district with light traps. Cast any spell, arcane or divine, in the district outside of the palace, and a color-coded light will go off to tell the religious police if it was divine or arcane and where it is. Not as deadly as a flame strike, but it does send a bunch of religious fanatics running your way.


Base 14+12 WIS assuming 18+levelups+tome)+5 item+2 feat = 33?

You forgot his age bonus.


I was thinking that being asleep gave a penalty to saving throws, but I can't find it. CDG it is if he's asleep, unless they have a way to remove his Protection from Evil and then slip some sort of possession creature into him.

No alignments, no protection from evil. Also, you can't exactly bypass his guards in any way not blocked by forbiddance and fighting them would wake him up. If it doesn't, opening his door will. (He doesn't even need magic for that one.) You could cast silence, but then you'll catch a flame strike to the face and that'll wake him up too.


Another option would be getting 1,000' away from the palace and hitting it with four or five castings of Earthquake in a row. The damage is additive and the second or third should bring the place down. Pontiff might survive if he's got a way to get out via magic, but most of the guard would probably be trapped in the collapse. Pair with Storm of Vengeance to reduce options for escape.
That's a higher-level option with a lot of collateral damage, though, so most parties won't employ it.

And when they cast it once and the nearest "decorative" pillar glows bright blue, they might be forced to rethink that plan.


D&D: Where you tell players "You can't do that!" and they immediately work to disprove you.
Thus, the value of "You shouldn't do that" by emphasizing the collapse and anarchy that would ensue...

...Following massive open war with the UNM, of course. Even assuming they could do it, do they really want to start a war between two superpowers with combined populations of well over ten million? The HEM's mystery "supporter" would be laughing like a cut-rate stage villain if they were physically capable.

[Bucky]

Players: "Alright, let's gank this guy."
GM: "Hold on, give me a knowledge: nobility check and a knowledge: history check."
Player: "Err, 12 for nobility."
GM: "You've heard that the emperor hates arcane spellcasting - this is common knowledge. But he also has an order of clerics and paladins who can enforce the ban."
Player: "23 for history."
GM: "The king's chief pontiff had to personally suppress a 'coven of witches' 12 years ago in a battle that wiped the town of NAME off the map. He did so almost solo, with only a few low-ranking paladins acting as bodyguards. Given that the coven of eight summoned multiple Bone Devils during the battle, they definitely had at least two casters higher level than you. A smattering of other accounts of recent events hints that the pontiff rarely leaves the emperor's side."
"You've also heard that high level arcane casters who stray across the border tend to be found stabbed to death the next morning, with no other trace of a struggle. They probably use their own scry-and-die tactics and have at least one level 14+ assassin available for a revenge run if you succeed."
"Finally, you've heard two accounts of disgruntled covert magic-users attempting to cast inside the palace and being immediately struck down by its reactive wards."
Players: "Okay, maybe we'd rethink this."

Exact details vary based on campaign setting. Telling the party "these guys are stronger than you" is a challenge. Telling the party "these guys wiped the floor with a group stronger than you... and they're on a team now" is a deterrent.

[khadgar567]

Exact details vary based on campaign setting. Telling the party "these guys are stronger than you" is a challenge. Telling the party "these guys wiped the floor with a group stronger than you... and they're on a team now" is a deterrent.
Deterent until what few more level tops with few more checks its lets ice these motherf*ckers time again

[Avianmosquito]

Oi. It's up. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528522-Help-Wanted

[danielxcutter]

Oi. It's up. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528522-Help-Wanted

Aiiiiiiiii *dives into the thread*