Druid and summoning 3.5 yay!

[finaldooms]

Hi folks!! Im needing to make a summoning druid for a game we arr in currently

We are lvl 12 and ive managed to lose ...3? Characters so far( tomb of horrors woops) ..and im co dm for this campaign and helpinv the main party out
.
So if possible can yall help me with this? And links to druid handbook and summoning handbook?

Im mostly wanting elementals of all kinds btw

[Nifft]

https://www.google.com/#q=druid+handbook

The first result ("Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook") is genuinely quite comprehensive, and comes highly recommended.

[Bullet06320]

I 2nd eggynacks druid guide for all things druid

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527203-Summoning-Handbook
and the summoning handbook

[lolcat]

I'd advise on taking Greenbound summoning (for obvious reasons) and also occular spell. With the last one (metamagic feat) you can fire off one (standard action) or two summoning spells (full round action) without needing to cast them at this moment (having cast them before).

So having taken damage, being entangled, silenced etc... all doesn't matter.

[eggynack]

I'd advise on taking Greenbound summoning.
Rashemi elemental summoning is somewhat more fitting for the tendency towards elementals, and is prolly generally better in this level range anyway.

[finaldooms]

How many summons can you have at once? ( not using a summon x for a group though) like if i used say..summon 1 and summon 2 do they both stay?

Also im not done reading the guide ..but aside from occular spell is there. A way to make my summons a standard action or faster?

Im planning on being a bat on a clerics shoulder and whenever he casts a spell im guna summon using natural spell

[Bullet06320]

you can have as many summons up as you can cast, there is no limit except duration of spell

altho for simplicity and game speed, only having a few up at a time is best

rapid spell metamagic feat to turn them into 1 action spells

[finaldooms]

you can have as many summons up as you can cast, there is no limit except duration of spell

altho for simplicity and game speed, only having a few up at a time is best

rapid spell metamagic feat to turn them into 1 action spells

If i read rapid metamagic right..that doesnt help me? It would still take 1 full round to cast SNA or SM ?

[eggynack]

Yeah, rapid spell doesn't really work here, unless you want to ignore your spontaneous casting capabilities. Cause spontaneous spells can only be made rapid if they are over a full round in casting time. You probably want golden desert honey from complete mage, which costs 300 GP per spell level of the SNA in question. A chronocharm of the uncaring archmage from the magic item compendium is amazing for this, but only for spells of third level or less.

Edit: Actually, think I'ma add that fact to the handbook if I haven't already. I've seen rapid spell brought up in this context a few times.

[Bullet06320]

sorry about that, forgot about the spontaneous summoning aspect, rapid is only gonna work if you prepare it that way

[finaldooms]

Its fine lol, yay discussion..still looking through the handbook
Ive noticed most of thr summoning feats dont really havr a requirement,,.

Atm its looking like augment summon,spell focus, ashbond, the elemental one, natural spell are a for sure thing..and maybe occular spell
Edit: can the. Child of winter( i think is the feat) add cold subtype to any summon? ..if so what happens to a fire elemental that is also cold subtype?

[Bullet06320]

lol, yea, discussion is always good
im more of a wizard summonor expert where as eggynack is the druid guy
all your choices are solid

SNA Greenbound and Rashemi Elemental Summoning Templates Handbook (https://web.archive.org/web/20141231183131/http://www.minmaxboards.com:80/index.php?topic=14245.0) Includes full stats for all core summon nature's ally creatures affected by Greenbound Summoning and Rashemi Elementals.

Greenbound & Ashbound SNA Summonling (http://antioch.snow-fall.com/files/members/Endarire/DnD/Greenbound%2C%20Ashbound%20Summonlings%201.34.zip) Includes full stats for all core summon nature's ally creatures affected by Greenbound Summoning or/and Ashbound.

[eggynack]

Its fine lol, yay discussion..still looking through the handbook
Ive noticed most of thr summoning feats dont really havr a requirement,,.

Atm its looking like augment summon,spell focus, ashbond, the elemental one, natural spell are a for sure thing..and maybe occular spell
Edit: can the. Child of winter( i think is the feat) add cold subtype to any summon? ..if so what happens to a fire elemental that is also cold subtype?
I'm not the biggest fan of augment summoning. It's reasonable, but in a non-core environment you could do better. Even something as seemingly distant from summoning as a high end form adding feat is probably going to make you better at summoning than augment, by dint of your general self having a variety of capabilities. There're ways to pick it up cheaper though, which makes it a bit more usable out of core. Planar touchstone offers a straightforward discount on augment, and half-orc substitution levels are solid for this as well.

I don't think ocular spell works for this, though I'm not an expert on it. It says the spell needs to be a ray spell or have a target (other than personal), and SNA possesses neither quality. And I think you mean beckon the frozen. Child of winter is the vermin summoning one. The feat specifies that it doesn't apply the cold subtype to fire subtype creatures. Not entirely sure if you're getting the other benefit there. I feel like it's kinda marginal in either case. And, yeah, druid feats tend to be pretty lacking in prerequisites. In a broad book access context, aberration wild shape is maybe the only feat that has a prerequisite and is highly optimal.

[finaldooms]

This is why i use the forum lol...

I dont really understand the touchstone, or substitution lvls and the group isnt very optimized s is..so im just making something to help get through the tomb if horrors lol

[Bullet06320]

I'm not the biggest fan of augment summoning. It's reasonable, but in a non-core environment you could do better. Even something as seemingly distant from summoning as a high end form adding feat is probably going to make you better at summoning than augment, by dint of your general self having a variety of capabilities. There're ways to pick it up cheaper though, which makes it a bit more usable out of core. Planar touchstone offers a straightforward discount on augment, and half-orc substitution levels are solid for this as well.

augment summoning is feat tax almost for any summoning build, you know you need it, you know you want it, but whats the best way for your build to get it

[eggynack]

This is why i use the forum lol...

I dont really understand the touchstone, or substitution lvls and the group isnt very optimized s is..so im just making something to help get through the tomb if horrors lol
They're not that complex. Planar touchstone is a feat that lets you link to a, well, planar touchstone. In this case, you pick catalogues of enlightenment, which gives you access to the domain power of a domain of your choice. You pick the dragon below domain, which has augment summoning as its domain power, and voila, augment summoning at the cost of a single feat.

Half-orc substitution levels are an ACF from races of destiny. You be a half-orc, preferably a dragonborn desert half-orc, and you get a bunch of benefits in exchange for not all that much. The greatest benefit is at level six, where you lose a wild shape use/day for augment summoning. You get a bunch of pretty close to free upgrades as well. The substitutions are at levels one, four, and six. All the levels swap your HD to a d10 and give you intimidate as a class skill that level, the first level gives the animal companion toughness as a bonus feat for free, the fourth level swaps resist nature's lure for the ability to use strength instead of charisma on wild empathy, which is nice when combined with high strength forms, and the sixth level thing does as I've already said. It's nice and such. Kinda a lower key version of the all in summoning shifter druid.

Edit:
augment summoning is feat tax almost for any summoning build, you know you need it, you know you want it, but whats the best way for your build to get it
I mentioned two solid methods above, but I've gotta dispute the idea that it's a necessary feat tax. Other druid feats are so much more powerful, and there are so many other ways to boost summoning, that it just doesn't seem that great. Like, everyone talks up greenbound summoning's wall of thorns thing, but it also just happens to give better versions of augment's statistical bonuses on the side. Ashbound is better early game, probably worse late game if you're spending one feat on augment, and probably always better if you spend two feats on augment. A ring of the beast is in a whole different resource pool, but what augment does seems so outmoded by what that item does. And, while the summoning focus druid is using two feats to give their summons an admittedly decent buff, the "generalist" druid is doing their summoning while, I dunno, flying hundreds of feet a round, or maintaining always on true seeing, or teleporting massive distances constantly, or, if we're getting serious here, maintaining perpetual invisibility as well as immunity to magic. Even if you literally do nothing but summon, I've gotta think that the "generalist" is getting the better end of that bargain.

[finaldooms]

Il look into the touchstone. More for sure

Personally im used to augment summoning just because i play ddo and other dnd style games where you dont have all these different options to make summons ...more viable

In ddo you picked augment summon and then the epic destiny that stacks and does +8. Lol

[Darrin]

They're not that complex. Planar touchstone is a feat that lets you link to a, well, planar touchstone. In this case, you pick catalogues of enlightenment, which gives you access to the domain power of a domain of your choice. You pick the dragon below domain, which has augment summoning as its domain power, and voila, augment summoning at the cost of a single feat.


There are a few quirks to it. Planar Touchstone requires 8 ranks of Knowledge (The Planes), but this is not a class skill for druids, so you may have to take a Planar Druid substitution level (Planar Handbook pp. 31-32). Or you can take the Sandstorm version of the feat, "Touchstone", which has different prereqs: Knowledge (Local) 8, or possession of a touchstone key (250 GP). However, Knowledge (Local) is also not a class skill for druids. You can use the Skilled City Dweller ACF from the Cityscape Web Enhancement to switch Knowledge (Nature) to Knowledge (Local), but that seems very odd... how do you explain a druid not knowing about nature? (Then again, how often do you need to make a "I'm not sure... could that be an animal?" roll?). Of course, you can skip all the skill rank requirements by spending 250 GP on a touchstone key, which you need to buy anyway.

The nice part about the Sandstone version of Touchstone is you can use it to link to planar touchstone sites (Sandstorm p. 54) instead of the Sandstorm touchstone sites. However, in that case you actually have to visit the planar touchstone site to link to it, which isn't required for the Planar Touchstone feat.

[finaldooms]

Couldnt i just take planar touchstone at lvl 9? Im being written in at lvl 12 anyways

[Darrin]

Couldnt i just take planar touchstone at lvl 9? Im being written in at lvl 12 anyways

Max ranks for cross-class skills at level 12 is 7.5, feat requires 8. Taking a planar druid substitution level (such as 4th) will make it a class skill or one level. This raises the max cap to char level +3, which works just fine, although you'll still be paying double skill ranks for your non-planar druid levels.

[Nifft]

If you had Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill, then you could in theory take Planar Touchstone at level 6... except Druids don't usually get a level 6 feat due to their Natural Spell class feature.


There are a bunch of ways to get Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill, some of which are good for Druids -- my favorite may be the Dderwydd Chymdeithas Initiate feat (from Dragon #332, p.87), which also gets you a bunch of decent spells added to your list.