Marshall, Dragon Shaman, and Divine Mind

[tedcahill2]

How well to the commander type classes (marshal, dragon shaman, and divine mind) play? I've heard the marshal and dragon shaman are pretty weak, haven't heard much about divine mind.

Is there a commander type class with a divine chassis? Maybe the divine mind is supposed to cover that one, but it's psionic and not divine.

I was thinking about combining the dragonfire adept (breath and invocations) into the dragon shaman (auras) to help make the class more viable. Thoughts?

[Bucky]

There was a recent discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?523449-Retiering-the-Classes-Divine-Mind-Dragon-Shaman-and-Marshal&p=21972118) on the topic.

General consensus is that they're all low-tier. Marshal is heavily front-loaded, with Cha-to-anything from level 1, while Divine Mind is heavily back-loaded with mid-level psionics but no swift aura switching until level 17.


Regarding the dragonfire adept-dragon shaman splice, have you considered taking the Draconic Aura feat on a Dragonfire Adept?

[daremetoidareyo]

tristalt them and you have a tier 3/tier 2 base class.

[tedcahill2]

tristalt them and you have a tier 3/tier 2 base class.

I was thinking gestalt the knight and marshal for a mundane commander.

[Mendicant]

I was thinking gestalt the knight and marshal for a mundane commander.

This wouldn't be too bad. The marshal has a bad chassis that isn't justified by its features. Gestalting one with a fighter or a knight or something like that would be a pretty small intervention that would go a long way to making it play the way it ought to.

[Grod_The_Giant]

tristalt them and you have a tier 3/tier 2 base class.
Not even the littlest of bits. The Marshal can be okay; getting Cha as a secondary bonus to things makes things like tripping, intimidating, knowledge devotion and the like at least reasonable practical. Dragon Shamans can't do anything well, meaning they're not providing much of a bonus, and Divine Minds have the feeblest auras of the three and late-blooming, Wis-based manifesting. The Marshal is on the border of T4, I think; adding the others might get you to a solid T4, but not really above, I don't think.

I was thinking gestalt the knight and marshal for a mundane commander.
That's not a bad bet. Marshal could use the full BAB and something to do with its actions; Knight could use a bit more role that's not tanking. I kind of like Marshal//Fighter myself, but Marshal//Knight would be quite playable. So would the DFA//Dragon Shaman mashup you mentioned, though DFAs don't particularly need the boost.

[Starbuck_II]

Not even the littlest of bits. The Marshal can be okay; getting Cha as a secondary bonus to things makes things like tripping, intimidating, knowledge devotion and the like at least reasonable practical. Dragon Shamans can't do anything well, meaning they're not providing much of a bonus, and Divine Minds have the feeblest auras of the three and late-blooming, Wis-based manifesting. The Marshal is on the border of T4, I think; adding the others might get you to a solid T4, but not really above, I don't think.


Merging Dragon Shaman/Marshal/Divine Mind: D10 hp, 4 +Int skills, all armor/Shields/simple/martial weapons.
Auras and choices:
One aura (3), Range 60 ft: My choices can grant melee damage/heal 1 hp a rd/ or Resistance 5 vs one element are good ones.
2nd Minor Aura (1):
Bonus Disarm/trip/bull rush/sunder or Bonus vs Flanked;
Divine Mantle Aura (1). Range 5 ft: Really hard to choose-
Creation is good if have warforged (as this heals any construct, even simulcrums)
Energy: energy damage is nice. You change each time activate which.
Force: Only good vs ghosts.
Guardian: DR X/- is pretty nifty.
Pain and suffering would be better if scaled.
Physical power boosts trip, disarm, bull rush, and grapple.
Planes: well, outsiders/extraplanar can hide from you…I guess that can useful. Since you always know where they are in aura area.
Repose: never be fatigued. Barbarians like it.
Time: reflex/Init boost.
Then the basic:
Defense: +1 morale AC +1/5 levels.
Attack: +1 hit/dam +1/5 levels.


Later you learn psionic spells. Sucky you are 3/4th bab though.

You can be an amazing at trip/disarm/bull rush/grapple since you get Cha + Mantle Aura to do it.
A bit mad as you are normally a Wis manifester, but we can switch it to Cha in this remaking maybe?

Now, if we do that the Divine Marshal is pretty strong Cha (we still get Divine grace so good saves).
I think we reach low Tier 3 at the minimum.
I'll admit we should double aura of Divine Mantle (starting at 10 ft).

[Hackulator]

I recently looked into this, and the answer appears to be just go bard.

[Lans]

I recently looked into this, and the answer appears to be just go bard.

Yeah, as far as the basic buff ability goes, I think the bards is the worse with out investment. But, their exists things to actually buff it, a lot of things at that.

[Zaq]

The classes are almost entirely passive, which means that you're spending most of your actions just making basic attacks. Since you don't really have anything that makes you especially great at basic attacks (sure, your own auras might give you a few bonuses here and there, but they're seriously unlikely to be the difference between being interesting or not), you don't really get to feel like you're doing anything unusual or special most of the time. I don't know about you, but I personally would fall asleep playing a character like that for an extended period of time.

They make decent NPCs, though.

[Nifft]

I'd suggest merging the leadership features from Dragon Shaman into Dragonfire Adept, which does a better job at being a dragon overall.

You could merge Marshal into Fighter / Barbarian / Paladin without much trouble.

IMHO the Divine Mind mechanics need an overhaul to make them less horribly back-loaded, but those could be merged into Ardent, or put into a manifester PrC -- the anti-Thrallherd, who is all about empowering the will of her allies, that type of flavor.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Knight+Marshal, DFA+Dragon Shaman, and Divine Mind+Ardent all make fairly solid T3 classes. A mundane commander, an invocation-using leader with draconic flavor, and a nifty customizable psionic martial with auras as a bonus.