Monster as a template?

[Aurosman]

Just wondering, would it be possible to add all the stats of a monster to make a BBEG? Basically it's going to be a old villian we killed being returned to the mortal plane by his God, so he already has stats and 8 class levels. The creature I have in mind is a cr16. Would this be doable? Or would I have to give him more class levels or templates? This will be for a party of 4 level 20's.


I don't want to post the villian and monster in case someone from my group reads this, but if you send me a pm I'm more than willing to.

[Hackulator]

Just wondering, would it be possible to add all the stats of a monster to make a BBEG? Basically it's going to be a old villian we killed being returned to the mortal plane by his God, so he already has stats and 8 class levels. The creature I have in mind is a cr16. Would this be doable? Or would I have to give him more class levels or templates? This will be for a party of 4 level 20's.


I don't want to post the villian and monster in case someone from my group reads this, but if you send me a pm I'm more than willing to.

I'm not sure what you mean. You can just stack the 8 class levels from the guy onto a monster chassis to make him more powerful if that's what you mean, yes. That would add with 4 or 8 CR to the base CR of the monster, depending.

[Waker]

Just wondering, would it be possible to add all the stats of a monster to make a BBEG? Basically it's going to be a old villian we killed being returned to the mortal plane by his God, so he already has stats and 8 class levels. The creature I have in mind is a cr16. Would this be doable? Or would I have to give him more class levels or templates? This will be for a party of 4 level 20's.


I don't want to post the villian and monster in case someone from my group reads this, but if you send me a pm I'm more than willing to.

Do you mean applying a template to your villain? Like making him a vampire or some other acquired state?

[ATHATH]

Here, have a handbook: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook

[Aurosman]

Do you mean applying a template to your villain? Like making him a vampire or some other acquired state?

An example would be I have a 5th level warrior and then want to add a creature that doesn't have a template, let's say a Balor. Is it possible to just add their stats together? Or should I start out with the Balor and give it class levels?

[Aurosman]

Here, have a handbook: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook

This might be perfect, didn't know that existed thanks!

[DarkSoul]

Pay particular attention to the part about associated class levels; they can make a big difference in the CR of your final monster. A fire giant cleric or wizard 14 is only CR 17, for example, while a fire giant blackguard 7 would be the same CR because melee classes are associated levels, while caster classes aren't. Feel free to PM with the specifics for the monster if you'd like.

[Hackulator]

Pay particular attention to the part about associated class levels; they can make a big difference in the CR of your final monster. A fire giant cleric or wizard 14 is only CR 17, for example, while a fire giant blackguard 7 would be the same CR because melee classes are associated levels, while caster classes aren't. Feel free to PM with the specifics for the monster if you'd like.

Yeah, the associated class levels rule is pretty much bunk and breaks down after more than a few levels. The idea that 7 fighter levels could ever be as good as 14 primary caster levels on any monster is ridiculous.

[Inevitability]

An example would be I have a 5th level warrior and then want to add a creature that doesn't have a template, let's say a Balor. Is it possible to just add their stats together? Or should I start out with the Balor and give it class levels?

Adding stats together isn't really something the game supports, and depending on how you do it will result in unbalanced monsters. It's easier to just add the class levels or templates to the balor.

[DarkSoul]

Yeah, the associated class levels rule is pretty much bunk and breaks down after more than a few levels. The idea that 7 fighter levels could ever be as good as 14 primary caster levels on any monster is ridiculous.So is the idea that you're worried about a fire giant wizard's melee capability, while a fire giant with a pile of extra carefully-chosen feats and significantly better attacks could be a real nightmare.

[Hackulator]

Adding stats together isn't really something the game supports, and depending on how you do it will result in unbalanced monsters. It's easier to just add the class levels or templates to the balor.

I mean, you basically add the stats together, other than the ability scores. BAB, Saves, all the abilities from each character.

Clearly you have to rebuild the sheet from the ground up to get everything perfect, but he final product is very much like you just added them together. You lose probably a feat, some skill points, and as I said before you don't add the ability scores, just add the bonuses from one to the other.

[Hackulator]

So is the idea that you're worried about a fire giant wizard's melee capability, while a fire giant with a pile of extra carefully-chosen feats and significantly better attacks could be a real nightmare.

The idea is that 14 wizard (or cleric) levels is just way, way better than 7 fighter levels in any circumstance. There is literally no monster in the game that is capable of casting the spells they would get with 14 casters levels who would not be stronger with 14 caster levels than with 7 fighter levels.

The associated levels system does not function properly for anything more than a couple levels. A level 1 fire giant fighter MIGHT be better off than a level 2 fire giant caster, but I doubt even that is really true.