Conjure Elemental and Planar Binding Combo

[Creyzi4j]

Is this possible?
You cast conjure elemental inside an inverted magic circle
Then you cast planar binding to have it under your command

My questions. Doesn't the elemental dissappear after one hour due to the duration of the spell?
And planar binding takes one hour casting time...so the elemental would disaplear before you have binded it

[MaxWilson]

Is this possible?
You cast conjure elemental inside an inverted magic circle
Then you cast planar binding to have it under your command

My questions. Doesn't the elemental dissappear after one hour due to the duration of the spell?
And planar binding takes one hour casting time...so the elemental would disaplear before you have binded it

No, it doesn't. Conjure Elemental lasts for one hour. It takes one hour to cast Planar Binding. It's a perfect match: the spell lasts just long enough to complete the binding, which extends the duration so the elemental doesn't disappear after.

[sir_argo]

You're going to have to go with RAI on this one. As written, the conjured elemental would disappear 6 seconds before you finish the Planar Binding, but that was clearly not the intent. Planar Binding was specifically written to be used with Conjure Elemental (and Conjure Celestial, Conjure Fey, etc). Even Jeremy Crawford says that as a DM he would allow it if you begin casting it right after the conjure spell: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/14/does-planar-binding-work-with-conjure-elemental/

For the record, if you go as written (RAW), then Planar Binding is nearly useless.

[MaxWilson]

For the record, if you go as written (RAW), then Planar Binding is nearly useless.

On the contrary, RAW is just fine.

Precedent: Blade Ward lasts one round (six seconds), and lasts "until the end of your next turn." You get to take your next action (next round) before Blade Ward ends.

Application: Conjure Elemental lasts one hour, which would be 600 rounds in combat time. Planar Binding takes one hour (600 actions) to cast. If you failed to cast Planar Binding, and you were counting in combat time, the elemental would disappear at the end of the 600th round. But if it succeeds, then it is bound at the end of that round, so it does not disappear.

RAW, it lasts just long enough.

[Vaz]

Glyph Seal Planar Binding

Edit; a wild 3.5ism appears. I mean glyph of Warding.

[sir_argo]

On the contrary, RAW is just fine.

Precedent: Blade Ward lasts one round (six seconds), and lasts "until the end of your next turn." You get to take your next action (next round) before Blade Ward ends.

Application: Conjure Elemental lasts one hour, which would be 600 rounds in combat time. Planar Binding takes one hour (600 actions) to cast. If you failed to cast Planar Binding, and you were counting in combat time, the elemental would disappear at the end of the 600th round. But if it succeeds, then it is bound at the end of that round, so it does not disappear.

RAW, it lasts just long enough.

This is incorrect. Many spells listed as "1 round" include additional language to specify how long the spell really lasts. Booming Blade has a duration of 1 round, but states in the text "until the start of your next turn". Command has a duration of 1 round, but states in the text "follow the command on it's next turn", so technically the spell is over after that creature's turn. Shield is 1 round, but says, "until the start of your next turn". While in your example, Blade Ward says "until the end of your next turn", that does not mean all spells of 1 round last through until the end of your next turn. This is an example of where the specific rule takes precedence over the general. If a spell says it lasts 1 round, that is exactly 6 seconds (general rule) unless the spell's description says otherwise (specific rule). In the case of the OP's question, it means that the Conjure spell would expire just before he completes the Planar Binding because the Conjure spell does not provide a specific rule to override the general. And I would add that JC insinuated as such in his response to the question.

[Naanomi]

Dip sorcerer for extend metamagic?

[JackPhoenix]

Glyph Seal Planar Binding

Edit; a wild 3.5ism appears. I mean glyph of Warding.

What would be worse then useless in most cases, because it would give you an creature you don't control (the "controller" is a non-sentient glyph, not you), and that won't just disappear after a hour. If you need guardian, you're better off with using the glyph to just summon the elemental when the conditions are met.

However, Glyph of Warding can be used to avoid the problem sir_argo noted, you load the summoning into the glyph with some condition you can trigger at will, prepare the circle in the area where the elemental will be summoned, trigger the glyph and start casting Planar Binding in the same turn.

Alternatively, 2 casters, one summons, other one binds (either one needs to use Ready action).

[Unoriginal]

This combo doesn't work for one caster:

Conjure Elemental is a Concentration-duration spell, and Planar Binding requires one hour to cast, and as the PHB says: "when you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so (see "Concentration" below)."

You might do it with two casters. Though you probably want a third one to cast Magic Circle.

[sir_argo]

This combo doesn't work for one caster:

Conjure Elemental is a Concentration-duration spell, and Planar Binding requires one hour to cast, and as the PHB says: "when you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so (see "Concentration" below)."

You might do it with two casters. Though you probably want a third one to cast Magic Circle.

Bear in mind that if you lose concentration on the Conjure Elemental, the elemental doesn't go away. He just becomes uncontrolled. As long as he is in a Magic Circle, he stays put for the whole hour.

[Vaz]

What would be worse then useless in most cases, because it would give you an creature you don't control (the "controller" is a non-sentient glyph, not you), and that won't just disappear after a hour. If you need guardian, you're better off with using the glyph to just summon the elemental when the conditions are met.

However, Glyph of Warding can be used to avoid the problem sir_argo noted, you load the summoning into the glyph with some condition you can trigger at will, prepare the circle in the area where the elemental will be summoned, trigger the glyph and start casting Planar Binding in the same turn.

Alternatively, 2 casters, one summons, other one binds (either one needs to use Ready action).

Sorry, mate, but that's incorrect.

"You can store a prepared spell of 3rd level or lower by casting it as part of creating the glyph" ... "The spell being stored has immediate effect when cast in this way. When the glyph is triggered, the stored spell is cast."

Planar Binding doesn't summon hostile creatures (that's what Conjure does, feel free to leave them scattered about your lair while you're not present), and it's not Concentration, so it's otherwise unchanged. You still cast the spell.

[Sigreid]

In 3.x didn't planar biding specifically say that it extended the summons spell for the duration of the casting time for planar binding? I guess I wouldn't have thought to worry about whether it was the same now.

[Unoriginal]

Bear in mind that if you lose concentration on the Conjure Elemental, the elemental doesn't go away. He just becomes uncontrolled. As long as he is in a Magic Circle, he stays put for the whole hour.

An uncontrolled Elemental is pissed off and hostile, and Planar Binding doesn't change the attitude. I'd rather not have a pissed off Elemental who interprets my words to the letter around.

That's how villages get destroyed.

[Vaz]

No. 3.5 was different from 5e. 5e has you actually need to summon a monster from a generic elsewhere (and neither is it specified whether they're actually transported or are temporarily sentient creatures given form that then die - I'll leave that to your Druids to justify), which may be within a Magic Circle, which you then attempt to Bind - that's 3 spells.

3.5 was a Calling spell (which explicitly did bring either a random or specific creature from a different plane to you) that combined the calling (which is explicitly different from Summoning) with the save for servitude - you can protect yourself with a Magic Circle Trap though.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm

For reference there. There are normal versions (6th level spell), and greater (8th) which allow for 12HD creatures and 18HD creatures to be called otherwise.

[Vaz]

An uncontrolled Elemental is pissed off and hostile, and Planar Binding doesn't change the attitude. I'd rather not have a pissed off Elemental who interprets my words to the letter around.

Are you sure you want that with Int 5-6 creatures?

[Unoriginal]

Are you sure you want that with Int 5-6 creatures?

I just said I *didn't* want that.

[Vaz]

Ah. The phrasing made me think you'd want one around that did everthing literally, but wasn't pished off. Gotcha.

[MaxWilson]

This is incorrect. Many spells listed as "1 round" include additional language to specify how long the spell really lasts. Booming Blade has a duration of 1 round, but states in the text "until the start of your next turn". Command has a duration of 1 round, but states in the text "follow the command on it's next turn", so technically the spell is over after that creature's turn. Shield is 1 round, but says, "until the start of your next turn". While in your example, Blade Ward says "until the end of your next turn", that does not mean all spells of 1 round last through until the end of your next turn. This is an example of where the specific rule takes precedence over the general. If a spell says it lasts 1 round, that is exactly 6 seconds (general rule) unless the spell's description says otherwise (specific rule). In the case of the OP's question, it means that the Conjure spell would expire just before he completes the Planar Binding because the Conjure spell does not provide a specific rule to override the general. And I would add that JC insinuated as such in his response to the question.

The general rule is "it lasts for one hour (600 rounds)." Shield has specific language to make it sometimes last less than a full round (sometimes only a fraction of a round), but in the absence of that special language, it lasts the full duration.

If Conjure Elementals ends before Planar Binding finishes casting, that means it didn't really last for the full 1 hour duration, ergo you're not playing by the rules as written. (Not that this argument over RAW really matters, because no sane DM would rule it otherwise anyway--but in this case the RAW also happen to align with the sane ruling.)

[sir_argo]

The general rule is "it lasts for one hour (600 rounds)." Shield has specific language to make it sometimes last less than a full round (sometimes only a fraction of a round), but in the absence of that special language, it lasts the full duration.

If Conjure Elementals ends before Planar Binding finishes casting, that means it didn't really last for the full 1 hour duration, ergo you're not playing by the rules as written. (Not that this argument over RAW really matters, because no sane DM would rule it otherwise anyway--but in this case the RAW also happen to align with the sane ruling.)

Um, no.

You can try this yourself at home. Get two timers. Label one "Conjure Element Duration" and set it for 1 hour. Label the other timer "Planar Binding" and set it for 1 hour also. Now, imagine you finish casting Conjure Elemental... click start on the first timer. Now, really fast, move your thumb over to timer #2 and press "Start" there to begin the casting time for Planar Binding. Wait an hour and watch as timer 1 finishes before timer 2. What you will not see is timer 2 finish first. If so, you didn't do it right.

By RAW, you can't get Planar Binding off in time. But take heart... any normal DM would see that the RAI was for it to work and would just let it.

[DanInStreatham]

Hi, your timer/stopwatch analogy triggered me from lurking! Congrats!

Take two timers, set for an hour each, one in each hand. Assume arcane focus sort of held behind one of them, leaving your thumb free :P.

Finish casting conjure elemental, click timer 1 with your left hand (duration of the spell will be one hour)

Start casting planar binding and click timer 2 with your right hand (casting time will be one hour).

You can click both timers at the same time because duration of the conjure spell begins after you finish casting, but time to cast binding begins when you begin casting.

Unless you are concerned that effective time passes between your initiative count on round 1 and round 2? (not sure if it's round or turn I mean here, don't flame me!).

Just trying to help clarify.

[Unoriginal]

Ah. The phrasing made me think you'd want one around that did everthing literally, but wasn't pished off. Gotcha.

Well, if you use Planar Binding, having the creature follow your orders to the letter is the only option

[Renduaz]

An uncontrolled Elemental is pissed off and hostile, and Planar Binding doesn't change the attitude. I'd rather not have a pissed off Elemental who interprets my words to the letter around.

That's how villages get destroyed.

But I would want that. First of all, because as you know, I love interpreting words to the letter, and secondly I'd want such a creature bound to me very much if it's intelligent, because - "Do as I ask of you, and you may be afforded every comfort I can grant you while you are with me, even power. I will let you pursue your own goals even, as long as they aren't radically opposite to mine. When the time comes ( Insert X hours here if you only need the creature for a while ), I'll free you as well, as long as you never try harming me. But you must treat me with sincerity, as if you wanted what I do and strived for it just as much as you would if you desired the same thing, do you understand? By the way, do not resist any of my spells or attempt to prevent their effects on you"

Casts Zone of Truth on him, cast it again as many times as it takes to make it fail it's saving throw if it somehow managed to disobey, since I'll know anyway, cast Detect Thoughts on it as many times as it takes

Upon failure to genuinely seek to comply with my terms, gruesome torture by any means possible for the entire duration and more as it is bound once again until it mentally breaks and serves me willingly. Upon success, I will honor my terms, giving the creature very little incentive to violate my commands.

[MaxWilson]

Um, no.

You can try this yourself at home. Get two timers. Label one "Conjure Element Duration" and set it for 1 hour. Label the other timer "Planar Binding" and set it for 1 hour also. Now, imagine you finish casting Conjure Elemental... click start on the first timer. Now, really fast, move your thumb over to timer #2 and press "Start" there to begin the casting time for Planar Binding. Wait an hour and watch as timer 1 finishes before timer 2. What you will not see is timer 2 finish first. If so, you didn't do it right.

By RAW, you can't get Planar Binding off in time. But take heart... any normal DM would see that the RAI was for it to work and would just let it.

Good, at least now you've acknowledged that Conjure Elemental lasts long enough to finish Planar Binding. The issue you're identifying here is that some of the Conjure Elemental duration gets "wasted" switching activities--or would, if 5E tracked the duration of a single action instead of treating it as infinitesimal. Your new argument is, "It lasts long enough, but you can't start casting quite soon enough, so Conjure Elemental spell always ends a microsecond before Planar Binding completes."

Any DM who tries to tell you that that ruling is necessitated by RAW needs a good smack in the head. 5E RAW doesn't track microseconds at all, not even for readied actions.

[Unoriginal]

But I would want that. First of all, because as you know, I love interpreting words to the letter, and secondly I'd want such a creature bound to me very much if it's intelligent, because - "Do as I ask of you, and you may be afforded every comfort I can grant you while you are with me, even power. I will let you pursue your own goals even, as long as they aren't radically opposite to mine. When the time comes ( Insert X hours here if you only need the creature for a while ), I'll free you as well, as long as you never try harming me. But you must treat me with sincerity, as if you wanted what I do and strived for it just as much as you would if you desired the same thing, do you understand? By the way, do not resist any of my spells or attempt to prevent their effects on you"

Casts Zone of Truth on him, cast it again as many times as it takes to make it fail it's saving throw if it somehow managed to disobey, since I'll know anyway, cast Detect Thoughts on it as many times as it takes

Upon failure to genuinely seek to comply with my terms, gruesome torture by any means possible for the entire duration and more as it is bound once again until it mentally breaks and serves me willingly. Upon success, I will honor my terms, giving the creature very little incentive to violate my commands.

Alright, first of all, all that stuff with Zone of Truth and Detect Thought is unnecessary , because entities under Planar Binding already have to obey you.

Second, Elementals have no desire aside from being freed and go back to their home plane to dissipate into the non-entities they were before the caster called them. So offering them rewards or power is meaningless. On the other hand, they would be forced to carry your orders "as if they wanted what you do and strived for it just as much as they would if they desired the same thing", so that sentence alone remove the need for the first few.

Third, the idea that you can torture someone until they mentally break and serve you willingly is laughable and only exist in stories that don't get the concept or in stuff like despair hentai that doesn't care about making it logical. At best you can get someone to comply to your demands to avoid being tortured again, even if they have adopted a "submission to avoid punishment" mindset.

Fourth, there is no such thing as perfect wording. No matter how clever the wizard, even an INT 6 being will have wiggle room, and that's not even going into the simple problem of giving complex orders to an INT 6 entity.

Fifth, the Elemental being pissed off is a consequence of the Conjuration spell. It's not something you can modify by trying to reason with the Elemental or by torturing it.

[Renduaz]

Alright, first of all, all that stuff with Zone of Truth and Detect Thought is unnecessary , because entities under Planar Binding already have to obey you.

Second, Elementals have no desire aside from being freed and go back to their home plane to dissipate into the non-entities they were before the caster called them. So offering them rewards or power is meaningless. On the other hand, they would be forced to carry your orders "as if they wanted what you do and strived for it just as much as they would if they desired the same thing", so that sentence alone remove the need for the first few.

Third, the idea that you can torture someone until they mentally break and serve you willingly is laughable and only exist in stories that don't get the concept or in stuff like despair hentai that doesn't care about making it logical. At best you can get someone to comply to your demands to avoid being tortured again, even if they have adopted a "submission to avoid punishment" mindset.

Fourth, there is no such thing as perfect wording. No matter how clever the wizard, even an INT 6 being will have wiggle room, and that's not even going into the simple problem of giving complex orders to an INT 6 entity.

Fifth, the Elemental being pissed off is a consequence of the Conjuration spell. It's not something you can modify by trying to reason with the Elemental or by torturing it.

First, it is necessary, since nothing says the Elemental can't lie to you ( About something like this, or if you ask it questions about things ), until the very moment in which you directly order it not to lie to you. It is also necessary to absolutely avoid any possible wiggle room it might have about "not lying" with Zone of Truth and Detect Thoughts for the purpose of knowing it's true intentions.

Second, you seem to be under the impression that "Conjure Elemental" is confined strictly to the raw Fire, Water, Air and Earth Elementals. It isn't, otherwise the parameters about CR and CR at higher levels would be redundant. It can summon any elemental of your/DM's choosing, it just needs to be "appropriate" to the summoning area depending on which plane it originated from. Galeb Duhr for Earth, Azer for Fire, and so on. Good to know you think my wording suffices even without the extra precautions though, you usually do the opposite.

Third, it's the carrot and the stick approach. A reluctant elemental who tries to play with me by twisting my words and so forth might decide, after a great deal of torture and in light of the alternative, that "Screw it, I'm just going to do what this guy wants the best way I can as long as he keeps the terms, resistance isn't worth it", and I would use Zone of Truth/Detect Thoughts/Ordering it not to lie to know that it has just given up on twisting my words to achieve it's own objectives and relegated to serve me in exchange for my offer as it's objective instead. It won't be happy willingness, but it would be "willing" in the sense that it gave up on working against me.

Fourth, who are you talking to? That's the whole reason why I'm trying to force it to give up on twisting my woding. Although you did just say that my sentence in "Second" alone would suffice to prevent the twisting of words entirely.

Fifth, "becomes hostile" doesn't mean "permanently becomes hostile". It even says "and it might attack." So no.

[sir_argo]

Good, at least now you've acknowledged that Conjure Elemental lasts long enough to finish Planar Binding. The issue you're identifying here is that some of the Conjure Elemental duration gets "wasted" switching activities--or would, if 5E tracked the duration of a single action instead of treating it as infinitesimal. Your new argument is, "It lasts long enough, but you can't start casting quite soon enough, so Conjure Elemental spell always ends a microsecond before Planar Binding completes."

Any DM who tries to tell you that that ruling is necessitated by RAW needs a good smack in the head. 5E RAW doesn't track microseconds at all, not even for readied actions.

Well, that's not what I said. I was only demonstrating that if times are equal, you cannot get #2 in before #1 ends if you started #1 first. Shouldn't be this hard to understand that.

The rest of my response is lengthy, so...


Per the PHB p.189, "A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn." Another way to look at this is that if you have 4 participants in a battle, a single round is this:

[person 1]
[person 2]
[person 3]
[person 4]

It can also be this

[person 3]
[person 4]
[person 1]
[person 2]

In this example, a round is any series of 4 turns where everyone gets one turn and it doesn't matter who goes first. Now, we already know that the round you cast a spell counts as part of the duration. This is why if you cast a spell like feather fall, you don't keep falling until the start of your next turn. That would suck. Also, if a sorcerer uses quicken spell to cast hold person on you as a bonus action, they can then hit you with a melee attack while your paralyzed on that same turn.. It would be odd if the DM said, sorry, the duration doesn't start until the next turn. Because the turn you cast a spell counts as part of the duration, 1 round would be the turn you cast it, followed by everyone else's turn, but it does not include your next turn. Only a spell that explicitly states that in the spell description works like that... such as your example of Blade Ward. So a normal spell would go like this

[person 1]casts a spell lasting 1 round, this turn counts as part of the 4 turn duration.
[person 2]this turn is also part of the 1 round duration
[person 3]so is this.
[person 4]so is this.
[person 1]this turn is NOT part of the duration. So if you were going to cast a spell to work with the one you cast on your prior turn, you're out of luck.

Now this same principle works for a spell that has a duration of 1 hour. It would look like this:

[person 1]casts Conjure Elemental (this is turn 1 of the 600 round duration)
[person 2]
[person 3]
[person 4]
[person 1]begins casting Planar Binding. This is turn #2 of the conjure duration, and turn #1 of the casting time for Planar Binding.
[person 2]
[person 3]
[person 4]
[person 1]turn #3 for conjure duration, turn #2 for planar binding casting time
.
.
.
[person 1]turn #600 for conjure duration. turn #599 for casting planar binding... you're still casting and conjure ends at the end of this "round".
[person 2]
[person 3]
[person 4]this turn marks the end of the 600 round conjure duration. your elemental disappears at the end of this turn.
[person 1]turn #600 for planar binding. You finish casting it. But OH NO! The conjure has already ended and the elemental has already disappeared.

If you think my sequence is wrong, by all means... post your own.

RAW, it doesn't work. But nobody is going to run with that. Every reasonable person will RAI that it works. I don't know why, from your standpoint, it is important that it be "RAW" when I'm agreeing that it will work as RAI. However, from my standpoint, it is important to know how rounds work properly because if you apply your version to other spells, especially those with 1 round duration, you could very well be wrenching an extra turn of use out of them when they weren't supposed to have it.