Martial Adept for a Paladin. Which maneuvers to take?

[Arkhios]

What is says in the tin. For those interested: Str 18, Dex 9, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 16 (yes, I chose to be clumsy rather than stupid, deal with it).

T.I.A. :)

[Rysto]

Riposte would seem to be an obvious choice, as extra attacks means more chances to smite (and will proc Improved Divine Smite at high levels on a hit).

A successful Trip Attack on your first attack would grant advantage on your second attack.

[Misterwhisper]

Step 1, don't take martial adept, it is a complete garbage feat, unless you already have superiority dice to get 1 more and 1 more maneuver. Nobody should ever take the feat otherwise, 1 superiority die per short rest and only one maneuver is a joke.

[bid]

I'll have to agree with MW, only take MA for conceptual/RP reasons.

Pushing attack gives you something different. Goading attack for defense, commander's strike for offense.

[Squiddish]

Step 1, don't take martial adept, it is a complete garbage feat, unless you already have superiority dice to get 1 more and 1 more maneuver. Nobody should ever take the feat otherwise, 1 superiority die per short rest and only one maneuver is a joke.

I disagree for a number of reasons, the first of which is that you're wrong about what the feat gives you. Second, one maneuver per short rest is a perfectly valid method of gaining a tactical advantage.

As for the OP, who else is in your party? What other abilities do you have?

[Naanomi]

I'm not a fan of the feat except for battlemasters with a spare feat... that being said it seems like precision attack to land those vital smites is valuable

[Misterwhisper]

I disagree for a number of reasons, the first of which is that you're wrong about what the feat gives you. Second, one maneuver per short rest is a perfectly valid method of gaining a tactical advantage.

As for the OP, who else is in your party? What other abilities do you have?

You think that 1 use of a maneuver, per short rest, that is a choice of only 2 maneuvers ever, with only 1d6 ever, that never improves, is a good idea of how to use one of a Paladin ' s few ASLs, on a class that needs more stats than any other class in the game only possibly tied with the Monk...

Only a class that already has superiority dice should ever take Martial Adept, to everyone else it is a trap.

[TripleD]

a good idea of how to use one of a Paladin ' s few ASLs, on a class that needs more stats than any other class in the game only possibly tied with the Monk...
.

He already has 18 STR and 16 CHA, assuming CON isn't junk he doesn't really need any more ASIs. Plenty of space to burn on non min/max feats.

For the OP: One thing to keep in mind is that Battle Maneuvers are one of the few core feats that can be used to empower thrown weapons. Paladins don't get a ton of ranged options, and being able to use "STR+thrown weapon+maneuver" adds some interesting possibilities to combat.

As for the usefulness of the feat, really depends on the DM. If your DM only throws one or two encounters a day at you it's usefulness increases.

[Arkhios]

For the sake of usefulness, let's just assume the feat won't be complete waste, thank you. MW, I know the price to take the feat is rather steep, but as bid pointed out, RP reasons might have some leverage on the matter.

That said, since people are interested in the group, they are a half-orc druid of the underdark circle, bronze dragonborn tempest cleric, wood elf revised beast master, stout monk of the open hand, and a human storm sorcerer. And me, Oath of the Ancients S&B paladin (dual wielder tavern brawler with DM's consent, let's not argue whether or not it's plausible), and my full stat array is Str 18, Dex 9, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 16.

I'm not fully set on taking the feat, but if I do, it'll be around 12th level or after, so IDS definitely is in the equation.

Why I'm asking is that he is the group's dedicated defender (with Protection Style) and de facto leader, and I was wondering if Martial Adept could provide an occasional edge in battle, not to be used at every chance, but rather when it matters the most.

As for the other abilities, with two-weapon fighting, my bonus action is already used quite often (plus, many of my spells use bonus action), and while I have an option to use my reaction for, having more options is quite welcome.

[toapat]

For the sake of usefulness, let's just assume the feat won't be complete waste, thank you. MW, I know the price to take the feat is rather steep, but as bid pointed out, RP reasons might have some leverage on the matter.

Actually i would say you should take Magical initiate, for 2 cantrips (Sword burst + Maybe GFB or BFB, or another of your choosing from Sorc or Warlock) and Shield or Hex

While yes Martial Adept isnt completely useless, it just feels like, your paying a flat value for the effect, why get a 1/rest ability for the price of 2 attribute points when you can get 2 At Will and a 1/Long Rest

My personal argument against Martial Adept, is that while Riposte is a very good ability, reading through the list of maneuvers, it really is just Riposte and Trip Attack that you take that subclass for, and 1/Sandwich is a very steep cost for the ability, and you will just be starting getting Blinding smite at Multiple/Nap.

[djreynolds]

Well Rally would give you once a short rest 1d8 +3 HP as a BA to one team mate... not bad... but healing word is better and so is inspiring leader.

Precision, can't go wrong, but with protection style you are not using GWM/SS so its expensive. Lucky might just be better and you have bless if needed

Now disarm is nice because you do not have to give up an attack nor grab expertise, could be useful

I like menacing, this is good to rid your party of a nasty foe. Goading could prove useful as well for you to draw agro without wasting an action to cast a spell such as command.

But I would really consider for this build grabbing battlemaster. TWF style will allow you to add your strength modifier to your off hand shield bash for 1 level of fighter, action surge.

And you can grab a level of fighter here and there as you try to progress to 11 paladin for improved divine smite

[Arkhios]

Actually i would say you should take Magical initiate, for 2 cantrips (Sword burst + Maybe GFB or BFB, or another of your choosing from Sorc or Warlock) and Shield or Hex

To be honest, Magic Initiate is another feat I have been considering, but the cantrips would be more likely Thunderclap and Lightning Lure (the character worships Kord, the god of storms :P) - yes, BB would fit the concept as well, but I think Lightning Lure fits better, and the spell would more likely be Identify or Mage Armor (from sorcerer, so no chance to take Find Familiar); Shield as a 1/long rest just feels like waste, while Mage Armor would at least give me a good long term back-up "armor" if I end up in a fight without my armor for some reason, and currently no one in our group knows Identify - and I doubt anyone will.

[Corran]

Riposte and precision fit well your ''nova role'' when you are up against strong enemies. Another chance per round to make yet another enhanced by IDS and divine smite attack (riposte), or turning a miss into a hit (precision), can matter quite a lot when you are up against something scary that needs to die NOW (be damned resourse cost).

But I can see some value in disarming strike too (and lot of rp potential; for example bring low an enemy, disram him, demand that they surender, etc).

ps: I like the magic initiate (focus on lightning/thunder spells) better, though. Thunderwave is not amazing, but I is a thematic pick for the 1st level spell too.

[Arkhios]

While I won't say Riposte is bad idea, I have been eyeing both Goading and Maneuvering Attacks, primarily because Goading would be particularly good for "tanking", and Maneuvering Attack could help an ally to get away from a bad situation.

Re: On the matter of Magic Initiate, Mage Armor has also another reason to consider. My character has his entire upper torso decorated in tattoos depicting his clan's totem animal (wolf), and I was thinking that the tattoos could be made "magical" with the feat and grant a once per day magical protection (mage armor) so I could mimic being an unarmored barbarian (yes, with dex 9, shield, and dual wielder - I repeat, with DM's consent - I would have only AC 15). :P
I did consider thunderwave, but as the defender pushing targets away from me is a bit counterproductive IMHO (although, it could be used to push targets away from my allies and I could follow the targets afterwards).

[Sirdar]

For the sake of usefulness, let's just assume the feat won't be complete waste, thank you. MW, I know the price to take the feat is rather steep, but as bid pointed out, RP reasons might have some leverage on the matter.

That said, since people are interested in the group, they are a half-orc druid of the underdark circle, bronze dragonborn tempest cleric, wood elf revised beast master, stout monk of the open hand, and a human storm sorcerer. And me, Oath of the Ancients S&B paladin (dual wielder tavern brawler with DM's consent, let's not argue whether or not it's plausible), and my full stat array is Str 18, Dex 9, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 16.

I'm not fully set on taking the feat, but if I do, it'll be around 12th level or after, so IDS definitely is in the equation.

Why I'm asking is that he is the group's dedicated defender (with Protection Style) and de facto leader, and I was wondering if Martial Adept could provide an occasional edge in battle, not to be used at every chance, but rather when it matters the most.

As for the other abilities, with two-weapon fighting, my bonus action is already used quite often (plus, many of my spells use bonus action), and while I have an option to use my reaction for, having more options is quite welcome.

Since it is two maneuvers and only one sup-dice per short rest (and not three maneuvers and 4 sup-dice as when going BM) I would not apply my usual choice (i.e. Precision, Riposte and Parry or Trip Attack depending on build). I would choose (the loathed) Sweeping Attack as one of the maneuvers! Since you only have one sup-dice you should have an option that is awesome and always justify using the dice. As a Paladin, you can get a double crit-smite in this way! When you are surrounded by enemies and roll a crit, pop Sweeping Attack and Smite twice with the maneuver that a lot of theory-crafters has ranked as the worst one. :smallamused:

When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to damage another creature with the same attack. Choose another creature within 5 feet of the original target and within your reach. If the original attack roll would hit the second creature, it takes damage equal to the number you roll on your superiority die. The damage is of the same type dealt by the original attack.

[toapat]

While I won't say Riposte is bad idea, I have been eyeing both Goading and Maneuvering Attacks, primarily because Goading would be particularly good for "tanking", and Maneuvering Attack could help an ally to get away from a bad situation.

Re: On the matter of Magic Initiate, Mage Armor has also another reason to consider. My character has his entire upper torso decorated in tattoos depicting his clan's totem animal (wolf), and I was thinking that the tattoos could be made "magical" with the feat and grant a once per day magical protection (mage armor) so I could mimic being an unarmored barbarian (yes, with dex 9, shield, and dual wielder - I repeat, with DM's consent - I would have only AC 15). :P
I did consider thunderwave, but as the defender pushing targets away from me is a bit counterproductive IMHO (although, it could be used to push targets away from my allies and I could follow the targets afterwards).

Maneuvering attack seems an occasional option, but Goading attack seems like a trap because it only lasts a round

Id select a spell besides Mage Armor when you have a Dex Penalty,

[Specter]

Even if I agree that the feat isn't worth an ASI, I'd go with Riposte and Precision Strike, the official 'can't go wrong' maneuvers.

[Sirdar]

Even if I agree that the feat isn't worth an ASI, I'd go with Riposte and Precision Strike, the official 'can't go wrong' maneuvers.

But if you only take one of them, say Riposte if you have few other options for your reaction, you are more or less guaranteed several good opportunities to use that maneuver between two short rests. To have both will make little difference.

But having Riposte and Sweeping attack as a Paladin gives you something else. Occasionally you will crit with your attack when you are facing two enemies in close combat. If you haven't already burned your sup-dice on Riposte you can then sweep the floor with them with a double crit-smite.

[Arkhios]

Since it is two maneuvers and only one sup-dice per short rest (and not three maneuvers and 4 sup-dice as when going BM) I would not apply my usual choice (i.e. Precision, Riposte and Parry or Trip Attack depending on build). I would choose (the loathed) Sweeping Attack as one of the maneuvers! Since you only have one sup-dice you should have an option that is awesome and always justify using the dice. As a Paladin, you can get a double crit-smite in this way! When you are surrounded by enemies and roll a crit, pop Sweeping Attack and Smite twice with the maneuver that a lot of theory-crafters has ranked as the worst one. :smallamused:

When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to damage another creature with the same attack. Choose another creature within 5 feet of the original target and within your reach. If the original attack roll would hit the second creature, it takes damage equal to the number you roll on your superiority die. The damage is of the same type dealt by the original attack.

I'm not convinced sweeping attack works that way with divine smite.

It doesn't say I make another attack that has automatically same results. It only says that if the original attack roll would hit, the second target takes damage equal to sup-die. On a crit it might be doubled, but I don't think it qualifies for using another divine smite.

In short, it's technically still one attack roll/one hit.

[Sirdar]

I'm not convinced sweeping attack works that way with divine smite.

It doesn't say I make another attack that has automatically same results. It only says that if the initial attack roll would hit the second target takes damage equal to sup-die. On a crit it might be doubled, but I don't think it qualifies for using another divine smite.

In short, it's technically still one attack roll/one hit.

I admit that the wording of Sweeping Attack is not the best and it is up to interpretation. I think the important part is that you compare your attack roll to the AC of the second target exactly as you do with the first target. If your attack roll would qualify as a hit you do 1d8 (or 1d10 / 1d12) instead of your normal weapon damage to the second target. I think the poor wording comes from the fact that the writer wanted to make sure everyone understand that you don't do your normal weapon damage on this attack.

Anyway, if my DM would say that my 'hit' is no real hit despite beating the second targets AC with my attack roll and dealing damage with my melee weapon, I would cry like a baby and tear my character sheet to shreds in despair. :smallwink:

[Arkhios]

Granted, it is rather poorly worded, but exactly because so much about it is open to interpretation, I would steer clear from sweeping attack to be honest.

It would seem that riposte is a good choice. And I could see myself using Trip Attack with my Shield Bash, mimicking Shield Master once per rest.

Precision Attack could be useful too, though.

About Magic Initiate:

What about Earth Tremor?
putting multiple targets prone and making the area difficult terrain sounds quite awesome.

[Aaron Underhand]

Step 1, don't take martial adept, it is a complete garbage feat, unless you already have superiority dice to get 1 more and 1 more maneuver. Nobody should ever take the feat otherwise, 1 superiority die per short rest and only one maneuver is a joke.


Just had to make a comment here.

If the party has good strikers and you want to sit back then Commanders Strike is a worthy addition... Add the best damage your party can do, without getting squished yourself.

[Corginin]

Within the context of the question asked, would Menacing Attack not be slightly better than Goading Attack? With Goading they have disadvantage on attacks against anyone other than you, with Menacing they have disadvantage against any targets. Additionally they can't move closer to you, and thereby possibly not closer to your party. However, thematically Goading would be a better fit for a 'Protector/Defender' type of character.

As an alternative to Martial Adept, what were your considerations to Shield Master? It's not a bad addition to the control/protect aspect as you can either knock them prone or push them back away from allies allowing the ally to possibly move away.

[Waterdeep Merch]

With that many melee characters in your party, I'd be slavering for trip attack. You might mess up the ranger's personal shots (I'll just assume they're using a bow because that makes the most sense) and maybe the sorcerer and the druid (easily overcome by switching to targeting saves over attacks or using beast form if they must), and allowing for a serious beat down between you, the ranger's companion, the cleric, and the monk.

If you use it at the right time, which shouldn't be hard given your terrible initiative score (which could in fact be a boon here!), you can ensure that anything that isn't a boss is dead, and your average boss isn't going to be looking too hot after all those advantage-laced hits.

Since you only get one use of this per short rest, it makes sense to use it on something that's either a phenomenal boss fighting tool or great for taking down important targets.

[Arkhios]

With that many melee characters in your party, I'd be slavering for trip attack. You might mess up the ranger's personal shots (I'll just assume they're using a bow because that makes the most sense) and maybe the sorcerer and the druid (easily overcome by switching to targeting saves over attacks or using beast form if they must), and allowing for a serious beat down between you, the ranger's companion, the cleric, and the monk.

If you use it at the right time, which shouldn't be hard given your terrible initiative score (which could in fact be a boon here!), you can ensure that anything that isn't a boss is dead, and your average boss isn't going to be looking too hot after all those advantage-laced hits.

Since you only get one use of this per short rest, it makes sense to use it on something that's either a phenomenal boss fighting tool or great for taking down important targets.

Yeah, your assumptions on the melee vs ranged were spot on.

While the druid is a half-orc, his Strength is 14 at most (not sure to be honest) and is a bit wacky, using spider climb and prefers throwing pebbles (with magic stone, obviously) over wild shape in combat.

Sorcerer's player prefers magic missile in almost every circumstance (with occasional thunderwave here or there) and ranged cantrips.

Ranger is indeed an Archer (like all Elves tend to be xP) and his pet is a panther. FWIW, the player doesn't know who Drizzt is.

Cleric is, like myself, S&B (both of us use a warhammer and shield by the way)

The monk is pretty obvious, of course.

Regarding considerations for Shield Master (the post above), I feel that it might compete a little too much with two-weapon fighting's bonus action, although it could be another useful option every now and then.
Trip Attack would allow sort of mix of both. I could decide to only use the maneuver when I hit with shield while two-weapon fighting (which could mitigate somewhat the loss of strength modifier for damage without the fighting style). Plus, when two-weapon fighting, I can opt to make the bonus action attack first, ideally hit with the shield, knock the target prone, and then make both primary attacks with advantage.

[toapat]

About Magic Initiate:

What about Earth Tremor?
putting multiple targets prone and making the area difficult terrain sounds quite awesome.

id go with thunderwave over Earth Tremor both for flavor reasons (you ARE a Thunder paladin), and because its a Suck or Die vs a Save or Suck.

also remember that Thunderwave provokes an OA from your opponents since they leave your reach.

with Magic Initiate im not entirely sure how id choose my first level spell. If i can cast it as a Spell Prepared which i have a special additional "lvl 1 slot" for, id go for something to cover the paladin's mechanical holes (which dont really exist for an OotA), to grab Mage Armor (a bad idea when you have a dex penalty) or to get cantrips that cover my combat weak points (Blade Flurry)

[Lord Il Palazzo]

also remember that Thunderwave provokes an OA from your opponents since they leave your reach.Unfortunately, it doesn't. Affects that move a creature like Thunderwave don't provoke opportunity attacks unless they force the creature to use its own movement.

On the topic at hand, I like the idea of Magic Initiate to fill in some of the same "extra combat tricks" role that Martial Adept would. Like you said, Lightning Lure and Thunderclap would fit really thematically while giving you some extra options.

If you did really want to go with Martial Adept, Trip Attack would be really good with all those potential melee characters to dog-pile someone you knock down, but of course you can also trip someone by shoving in place of an attack so Trip Attack isn't 100% necessary for that (though it's nice not to lose a chance to actually deal damage, obviously). I would ask my DM about the (Improved) Divine Smite/Sweeping Attack interaction. Like you said, it's open to interpretation so you might as well find out what the interpretation will be at your table.