Knockback Question for DMs

[Cisturn]

Hello Playground!

Would you allow a human character with the racial background feat Jotunbrud to take the feat Knockback? Knockback by RAW has a prereq of Large size (or larger) or Goliaths due to their powerful build racial trait. Jotunbrud isn't Powerful Build, but they are pretty similar. If you were the DM, would you allow this?

[Venger]

Hello Playground!

Would you allow a human character with the racial background feat Jotunbrud to take the feat Knockback? Knockback by RAW has a prereq of Large size (or larger) or Goliaths due to their powerful build racial trait. Jotunbrud isn't Powerful Build, but they are pretty similar. If you were the DM, would you allow this?

RAW, the answer's no, but as far as game balance goes, that seems fair, they've already wasted a feat on jotunbrud.

[Silva Stormrage]

Yes I have allowed it as it seems fairly reasonable. One of my pc's currently has that combo and it's not disrupting game balance at all.

[J-H]

Potato, Potatoe, Tomato, Tomatoe.
Just kidding - the E never belongs, and people who spell those two produce items with an E on the end are strange.

Yes, I'd allow it.

[Necroticplague]

Hello Playground!

Would you allow a human character with the racial background feat Jotunbrud to take the feat Knockback? Knockback by RAW has a prereq of Large size (or larger) or Goliaths due to their powerful build racial trait. Jotunbrud isn't Powerful Build, but they are pretty similar. If you were the DM, would you allow this?

No, I would not. While I realize it would not significantly effect balance (as Goliath is preferable to Human for these types of builds anyway), I prefer to take effort to try and stick to the rules when possible, with minor exceptions for pet annoyances (most racial prerequisites), ambiguous points (The finer details of Unarmed Strike), or obvious stupidity (drown healing). Making concessions for one character, the other's will come asking for it. A slippery slope I don't feel like dealing with.

[Gruftzwerg]

No, I would not. While I realize it would not significantly effect balance (as Goliath is preferable to Human for these types of builds anyway), I prefer to take effort to try and stick to the rules when possible, with minor exceptions for pet annoyances (most racial prerequisites), ambiguous points (The finer details of Unarmed Strike), or obvious stupidity (drown healing). Making concessions for one character, the other's will come asking for it. A slippery slope I don't feel like dealing with.

I agree here. If there are possible builds by 3.5 RAW, why not stick to those? I mean, why didn't he go Goliath in the first place?

Further there are other feats that can be taken. Driving Attack lets you make a free Bullrush attack where only your enemy moves and you can shorten his (Bullrush result) movement by 10feet to make him fall prone instead. DA has far more feat investment, but doesn't have the large requirement like Knockback has.

[Hackulator]

Unless there is some weird combo that this will let him execute that is ridiculously powerful, I don't see why not.

[Necroticplague]

Further there are other feats that can be taken. Driving Attack lets you make a free Bullrush attack where only your enemy moves and you can shorten his (Bullrush result) movement by 10feet to make him fall prone instead. DA has far more feat investment, but doesn't have the large requirement like Knockback has.

Probably not the best example, given how crap Driving Attack it. That full-round to make one attack with the desired property (instead of just taking a -1 to make it a rider on all attacks) makes it considerably less good, even ignoring the prerequisites (2 extra feats of prereqs is 3 levels worth of advancement, minimum. Becoming Large is only 1 for half-minotaur).

[Venger]

I agree here. If there are possible builds by 3.5 RAW, why not stick to those? I mean, why didn't he go Goliath in the first place?

Further there are other feats that can be taken. Driving Attack lets you make a free Bullrush attack where only your enemy moves and you can shorten his (Bullrush result) movement by 10feet to make him fall prone instead. DA has far more feat investment, but doesn't have the large requirement like Knockback has.

goliath is la 1 and you lose your human bonus feat and skill point

[Necroticplague]

goliath is la 1 and you lose your human bonus feat and skill point

LA buyoff exists; in this scenario, you've already given up your feat by taking Jutonbrud (half of Powerful Build); goliath provides bonuses to skills that exceed the value of bonus skill points definitely for first 7 levels, and quite possibly indefinitely.

[Gruftzwerg]

Probably not the best example, given how crap Driving Attack it. That full-round to make one attack with the desired property (instead of just taking a -1 to make it a rider on all attacks) makes it considerably less good, even ignoring the prerequisites (2 extra feats of prereqs is 3 levels worth of advancement, minimum. Becoming Large is only 1 for half-minotaur).

Depends on the point of view imho.

first it doesn't "consume" the full-round action. It just limits you to take a full round action and just do no more than a single attack. You could pounce+whirlwind with it to overcome the single attack limitation and hit anything in reach.
And in control builds like this (force enemy movement on hit), you regular intention is to attack each enemy in reach only once anyway. So go for Whirlwind (+pounce if you want to add more dmg due to charge multipliers) and ignore the fact that you are reduced to a single attack Driving Attack.
Further Driving Attack has a much higher success chance due to adding your total attack dmg bonuses into the Bullrush roll instead of just your Power Attack bonus that Knockback gives.

Further, race (size) limitations depending on DM/table/campaign might force you to look for alternatives.

What I try to say is: If you are looking for legal option by RAW, there are ways to get the mechanic. Just another way to achieve the goal.

[OldTrees1]

I think a Str 15 prerequisite is more appropriate than a Large-size/Goliath prerequisite. So as long as they have at least 15 Str, go for it (yes even exceptionally strong Halflings).