Help with ek?

[Asuryan9]

Ok so I know they aren't the best classes, but I'm not that concerned. They look fun to me. A fighter that can use some spells to help himself defensively. Specifically shield, absorb elements and blur/mirror image.

I've just started. I'm only lvl 2. 3 by the time we finish next game I believe. My question is about lvl 4 when I get asi or feat.

I'm a air genasi dex fighter
Strength 10
Dex 17
Con 16
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 8

Now when I hit 4, should I take the Asi and make dex 18 and say int 12?

Or get resilient in dex make it 18 and gain proficiency in dex saves?

Right now I'm rapier/shield with studded leather.

[Elminster298]

Resilient: Dexterity and 18 dex is very strong but I personally think an extra +1 to your two main stats is the stronger choice.

[bid]

You'll need warcaster to cast shield since both hands are taken by rapier/shield. Hopefully your DM will disregard that issue.

Resilient(Dex) synergizes well with shield master's third point. Your Int is too low to be used offensively, evening it won't do much.

[Asuryan9]

Int is mostly a dump state. Nothing I'll be taking int will help me. So I figured the proficiency in dex saves would be better than one more point in a statement I'm basically never going to use.

As far as not being able to cast spells with sword and board. Almost all my spells will be reactive. Shield, absorb elements, some others may not be but at least those 2 I can put my sword away to cast them when I get attacked. I can draw my blade as part of my attack next round. Only downside is see from working it that way is I won't be able to get attacks of opportunity if enemies leave combat with me.

[Drathmar]

Int is mostly a dump state. Nothing I'll be taking int will help me. So I figured the proficiency in dex saves would be better than one more point in a statement I'm basically never going to use.

As far as not being able to cast spells with sword and board. Almost all my spells will be reactive. Shield, absorb elements, some others may not be but at least those 2 I can put my sword away to cast them when I get attacked. I can draw my blade as part of my attack next round. Only downside is see from working it that way is I won't be able to get attacks of opportunity if enemies leave combat with me.

Might want to check with your DM on that one. No way my DM would let me sheath as part of a reaction to cast shield. You can't sheath as a reaction as far as I know.

[Asuryan9]

No no. Sheathe it as my one free action to interact with an item per turn.

So attack on my turn, Sheathed sword.
Have free hand to cast shield when they attack.
I can then summon it back to my hand from being bonded with it.

[Corran]

Do NOT take resilient dex. When you take the resilient feat, eventually, it will be resilient WISDOM.
@4, take warcaster, so you dont have to seathe your weapon, so that you will be able to make opportunity attacks (with booming blade!), so that you boost your concentration even more.

[miburo]

Do NOT take resilient dex. When you take the resilient feat, eventually, it will be resilient WISDOM.
@4, take warcaster, so you dont have to seathe your weapon, so that you will be able to make opportunity attacks (with booming blade!), so that you boost your concentration even more.

Wait, can you not take multiple resilient feats? Is there a Sage ruling somewhere on this? If you can, Fighters have more than enough feats to spare. If not, then I would agree Resilient:Wis is much more important for a fighter at higher levels.

[Specter]

The guide in my signature may help.

As for level 4, I'd boost DEX and INT.

[mephnick]

Eh, Con to 14 Wis to 10 Int to high as possible. It's lame when every EK "opti-"dumps Int and they lose half their flexibility. You have enough damage reduction abilities that Con is not a secondary stat.

[Corran]

Wait, can you not take multiple resilient feats? Is there a Sage ruling somewhere on this? If you can, Fighters have more than enough feats to spare. If not, then I would agree Resilient:Wis is much more important for a fighter at higher levels.
RAW, you can take it only once, as is the case for all feats (unless stated otherwise). The key is, that resilient dex and resilient wis, for example, do not count as different feats. It is the same feat selected twice (but utilised differently); which is not allowed by RAW. Ofc, you dont have to tell the DM that!:smallbiggrin:

[djreynolds]

Resilient wisdom trumps. It is how I rid myself of annoying fighters.... fear, charm, and hold person.

I wouldn't worry about intelligence, just use your spells as defensive buffs.

Protection from evil, blur, mirror image, absorb elements, shield, BB/GFB

War caster is great, but I would just drop the shield for now. You need dex for killing and protection

Your dex affects to hit and AC, so it needs to be maxed

I would place +1 in DEX (18) and +1 in wisdom (15) at 4th, at 6th +2 in DEX (20), and at 8th resilient wisdom (16).

And with a 16 in wisdom and a 20 in dex.... you have multiclassing options.

I love EK/cleric. You can just cast cleric spells for offense. War cleric gives divine favor or shield of faith, and hold person as a cleric with a 16 wisdom.

[poolio]

Don't know who gave you the odea EK aren't that good, they're amazing! I've played two and plan on trying out at least two other builds I've come up with, if i get the chance.

As far as what feat/ASI to do, I'd say war caster, it's the first for me every time, it's not so much the casting with weapons issue (never really been an issue at my tables at least) but the advantage on concentration checks and spell opportunity attacks, booming blade is a great faux sentinel effect (stop moving or take even more damage) and being a front line with concentration up you'll want every chance to keep it up, cause i prefer blur to mirror image, but that's just cause how they work mechanically, with your DEX you could make good use of MI and that would leave you free to cast flaming sphere for bonus action damage every turn that would also force the enemy to want to move away, possibly triggering an opportunity attack with booming blade, it's damage all over the place! EKs are sooo good! :smallbiggrin:

[Citan]

Ok so I know they aren't the best classes, but I'm not that concerned. They look fun to me. A fighter that can use some spells to help himself defensively. Specifically shield, absorb elements and blur/mirror image.

I've just started. I'm only lvl 2. 3 by the time we finish next game I believe. My question is about lvl 4 when I get asi or feat.

I'm a air genasi dex fighter
Strength 10
Dex 17
Con 16
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 8

Now when I hit 4, should I take the Asi and make dex 18 and say int 12?

Or get resilient in dex make it 18 and gain proficiency in dex saves?

Right now I'm rapier/shield with studded leather.
Hi!
The brainless choice imo is to pick +1 in both DEX and INT.
Especially since...
- Resilient DEX is nice, but imo Resilient: WIS is more important: Fighter has enough HP to survive a few AOE, while turning on your fellows ought to be much more deadly.
- You could very well want Shield Master which also helps quite a bit with DEX saves.

With that said, you already have an even WIS, so Resilient would put it at odd, and nobody likes odd stats. XD

1. "Standard" way to go for an EK that just wants to buff himself and be great at attacking.
lvl 4: +1 DEX, +1 INT.
lvl 6: +2 DEX
lvl 8: Shield Master
lvl 12: Warcaster
lvl 14: Sentinel
lvl 16: Lucky
lvl 19: whatever.

2. Standard way for an EK who wants to be extra resilient
lvl 4: +1 DEX, +1 INT.
lvl 6: Shield Master
lvl 8: Resilient: Wisdom
lvl 12: +1 WIS, +1 CON
lvl 14: Durable (+1 CON).
lvl 16: Defensive Duelit
lvl 19: +2 DEX.

3. Standard way for an EK who wants to be great with his innate spellcasting
lvl 4: +1 DEX, +1 INT.
lvl 6: Shield Master
lvl 8: Resilient: Wisdom
lvl 12: +1 WIS, +1 INT
lvl 14: Warcaster.
lvl 16: Observant (INT).
lvl 19: +2 INT.

4. Suggested way for you specifically since you have better WIS than INT.
lvl 4: +1 DEX, +1 WIS
lvl 6: Shield Master
lvl 8: Resilient: WIS
lvl 12: +2 WIS
And take levels in Tempest Cleric. ;)
Eldricht Knight 12 / Tempest Cleric 8 will prove a fearsome opponent: you get much more fuel for buffs, great AOE damage per short rest, great disabling or control spells.
Dipping Cleric 2 may even be worth dipping after Eldricht Knight 8 if you want a nova blow earlier. Otherwise just finish Fighter then start Cleric.

[Phelan Boots]

I would be more tempted to round out all your defenses. A sword and board EK is a master of defense. Start with defense of your concentration.

Lvl 4: Warcaster
Lvl 6: Shield Master
Lvl 8: Resilient Wis
Lvl 12: +1 Dex +1 Wis
Lvl 14: +2 Dex

From there you can max Con, or pick up other fun feats.

What this does:

Lvl 4 - Short of maxing you Con stat, this is the best your concentration saves can be. You won't have the spell slots to waste on losing your concentration. Plus all the other great benefits Warcaster brings with it. (Reaction booming blade, less fiddly spell casting)

Lvl 6 - Shield Master combined with Absorb Elements means you either pass your Dex save and use your reaction for no damage, or you fail your Dex save and use your reaction for half damage and a bonus Dice on your next attack. Your Dex is already not terrible anyway.

Lvl 8 - Resilient Wisdom shores up your biggest weakness, getting mind controlled.

Lvl 12 - Even out your Dex and Wis, improves your attack and your defenses.

Anyway, this is just my advice.

[Citan]

I would be more tempted to round out all your defenses. A sword and board EK is a master of defense. Start with defense of your concentration.

Lvl 4: Warcaster
Lvl 6: Shield Master
Lvl 8: Resilient Wis
Lvl 12: +1 Dex +1 Wis
Lvl 14: +2 Dex

From there you can max Con, or pick up other fun feats.

What this does:

Lvl 4 - Short of maxing you Con stat, this is the best your concentration saves can be. You won't have the spell slots to waste on losing your concentration. Plus all the other great benefits Warcaster brings with it. (Reaction booming blade, less fiddly spell casting)

Lvl 6 - Shield Master combined with Absorb Elements means you either pass your Dex save and use your reaction for no damage, or you fail your Dex save and use your reaction for half damage and a bonus Dice on your next attack. Your Dex is already not terrible anyway.

Lvl 8 - Resilient Wisdom shores up your biggest weakness, getting mind controlled.

Lvl 12 - Even out your Dex and Wis, improves your attack and your defenses.

Anyway, this is just my advice.
I'd advise against taking Warcaster so early simply because its value depends on your spellcasting, and considering how few slots you have, and how most of these will be spent on Shield / Absorb Elements / Mirror Image / Burning Hands or Shatter (= all non-concentration spells), first benefit is useless.
And Booming Blade does not deal that much damage before level 11 to really justify it.

With that said, there is an important problem Warcaster resolves: somatic components. Unless your DM is lenient enough to wave it, per RAW you couldn't cast Shield (or Absorb Elements for that matter) because both your hands are full. You can circumvene it by sheathing your weapon at the end of a turn in which you expect heavy attacks, but it's clearly not ideal.

So, if your DM plays by strict rules it may be worth taking as early as level 6, although I'd say 8 would be more reasonable (at least you have 6 slots, including 2nd level ones). But really not level 4: until you get Extra Attack, you could just spend turns using Shocking Grasp when you want to keep a free hand, which is far enough when you have 3 slots for the whole day.
If your DM has been nice up until now, don't say anything and pick another choice. XD

[Corran]

@ Citan & Phelan Boots:
I'm surprised to see shield master suggested. Besides the low strength, I think the biggest offense is how it competes with warmagic for a bonus action. It's a trap option IMO.

[Phelan Boots]

@ Citan & Phelan Boots:
I'm surprised to see shield master suggested. Besides the low strength, I think the biggest offense is how it competes with warmagic for a bonus action. It's a trap option IMO.

It is better offensively on a Strength EK for sure, but it doesn't compete with War Magic. War Magic only triggers off spell/cantrip actions. Shield Master triggers on Attack actions. Now you have a Bonus Action option for both. Additionally it's not impossible for him to have proficiency in Athletics or even Expertise with the UA Brawny feat. That's more than enough to knock some people over.

Defensively, as long as he has his reaction available, he'll never take more than 1/2 damage on a Dex save. That's if he takes any damage at all.

@ Citan - I could see waiting to 6th to pick it up, but if you're reaction casting Booming Blade, it's because you know they are moving. And at lvl 5 that damage goes up to an extra 3d8 over a normal melee attack. Plus I just want all the fiddly casting rules bits out of the way.

[Corran]

It is better offensively on a Strength EK for sure, but it doesn't compete with War Magic. War Magic only triggers off spell/cantrip actions. Shield Master triggers on Attack actions. Now you have a Bonus Action option for both. Additionally it's not impossible for him to have proficiency in Athletics or even Expertise with the UA Brawny feat. That's more than enough to knock some people over.

Defensively, as long as he has his reaction available, he'll never take more than 1/2 damage on a Dex save. That's if he takes any damage at all.
Yes, he can either take the attack action and use a bonus action to shove (assuming shield master), or he can use a (weapon) cantrip and then use his bonus action to make an attack. The 'competition' I mentioned, refers to the choice the PC has to make, regarding which of these two options he will use. Both options optimize action economy, and I can see them both being valuable, as each of these two options will gain or lose value (and thus end up better or worse than the other), depending on the situation (eg enemy positioning), the level of the PC, and the composition of his group (how many melee or ranged allies, etc).

The difference, IMO, is that one of these two options is already built in the character set up, while the other has to be ''purchased'' using a valuable feat/ASI slot that can go to other things that complement the existing set up better. I mean, I think it's better to use your available options (like feats) to improve your existing set-up (synergy!), instead of using them to ''buy'' a feat that accomplishes something you are already good at (ie optimizing action economy), essentially offering an alternative way to be good at ''it'', that maybe (since we dont know all the parameters that would affect how good shoving enemies rone would be) becomes a little better or worse depending on situation and other parameters.

Expertising in athletics can be done, agreed, but that's more investment going towards improving an option (ie shield master) that will see far less use that if you were a S&B battlemaster for example, due to the EK's warmagic (ie because of warmagic, you wont be using shield master all that often; turns when you dont use it ''cost'' us since the more this happens, the less our investment in shield master is justified).

About the pseudo-evasion effect, it's not 1/2 damage at worst case scenario, it is either full damage on no damage. And it costs a reaction (and reactions already have 2 major competing options, in shield and BB OA's; I consider warcaster a given, at least at some point -personally it would be my 4th level feat pick). You could argue that when you are called to use the shield master reaction (against AoE's), then shield and OA's dont count, and you would be right, in that the shield master pseudo-evasion reaction finds good situational use. But, absorb elements can take care of that problem well enough.

Anyway, this is why I dont think that shield master doesn't fall well under EK optimization. With a melee heavy group and a STR based EK it might do better though, but that's a different story and an even longer conversation.

[Phelan Boots]

I'm aware of how the Shield Master reaction works, I was referring to using it to compliment Absorb Elements in filling the defensive gap against Dex based damage saves.

1) Roll Dex Save for half damage
A. If successful -> Use Shield Master Reaction for no damage
B. If unsuccessful -> Burn a spell slot for Absorb Elements

AKA:

Defensively, as long as he has his reaction available, he'll never take more than 1/2 damage on a Dex save. That's if he takes any damage at all.

As for the Bonus Action shove, I like having the option for all the reasons you listed. Sometimes it's better to hit people with your stick and sometimes you need to wiggle your fingers at them. Now you have a good BA option for every situation.

Looking at the whole feat together at once, and with the assumption of Res Wis @ lvl 8, I would find Shield Master to be a good fit for building a Dex based Sword and Board EK because it compliments Absorb Elements in filling the Dex Save defensive gap and it compliments War Magic by giving you something to BA when you're not utilizing War Magic.

There are other options:
Lucky (Never bad, just boring)
Sentinel (Doesn't allow you to BB with Warcaster)
Crossbow Expert (If you want to give up Sword and Board)
Blade Mastery (Advantage doesn't apply to BB reactions, and competes for your reaction.)

Polearm and GWM are both Strength based.

Anyway, I believe I have thoroughly explained my train of thought on the matter. You're entitled to your own opinions.

[Citan]

@ Citan & Phelan Boots:
I'm surprised to see shield master suggested. Besides the low strength, I think the biggest offense is how it competes with warmagic for a bonus action. It's a trap option IMO.


Yes, he can either take the attack action and use a bonus action to shove (assuming shield master), or he can use a (weapon) cantrip and then use his bonus action to make an attack. The 'competition' I mentioned, refers to the choice the PC has to make, regarding which of these two options he will use. Both options optimize action economy, and I can see them both being valuable, as each of these two options will gain or lose value (and thus end up better or worse than the other), depending on the situation (eg enemy positioning), the level of the PC, and the composition of his group (how many melee or ranged allies, etc).

The difference, IMO, is that one of these two options is already built in the character set up, while the other has to be ''purchased'' using a valuable feat/ASI slot that can go to other things that complement the existing set up better. I mean, I think it's better to use your available options (like feats) to improve your existing set-up (synergy!), instead of using them to ''buy'' a feat that accomplishes something you are already good at (ie optimizing action economy), essentially offering an alternative way to be good at ''it'', that maybe (since we dont know all the parameters that would affect how good shoving enemies rone would be) becomes a little better or worse depending on situation and other parameters.

Expertising in athletics can be done, agreed, but that's more investment going towards improving an option (ie shield master) that will see far less use that if you were a S&B battlemaster for example, due to the EK's warmagic (ie because of warmagic, you wont be using shield master all that often; turns when you dont use it ''cost'' us since the more this happens, the less our investment in shield master is justified).

About the pseudo-evasion effect, it's not 1/2 damage at worst case scenario, it is either full damage on no damage. And it costs a reaction (and reactions already have 2 major competing options, in shield and BB OA's; I consider warcaster a given, at least at some point -personally it would be my 4th level feat pick). You could argue that when you are called to use the shield master reaction (against AoE's), then shield and OA's dont count, and you would be right, in that the shield master pseudo-evasion reaction finds good situational use. But, absorb elements can take care of that problem well enough.

Anyway, this is why I dont think that shield master doesn't fall well under EK optimization. With a melee heavy group and a STR based EK it might do better though, but that's a different story and an even longer conversation.
Well, I forgot that Shield Master required specifically to take the Attack action.
So in that regard alone, you could argue that it brings nothing since War Magic brings a weapon attack as bonus action, and that can be used to instead make a Shove / Grapple by RAW.
So, as soon as weapon cantrips are taken into equation, that aspect of Shield Master loses its shine indeed.
It's not that bad though, just more situational, in fact it depends on how often Attack is better than BB/GFB, and that heavily depends on role and party composition: if there is a Paladin with Crusader's Mantle and a Bard/Cleric that can buff you further with Divine Favor/Magic Weapon/Elemental Weapon, or if you just prefer having several chances at hitting the enemy for whatever reason (ex: Eldricht Strike spell next turn or Action Surge) you WILL want to make as many attacks as possible, in which case Shield Master comes handy for the S&B.
I agree though this benefit is not worthy enough by itself to justify the feat as an Eldricht Knight.

Good thing it's not the only benefit: the pseudo-Evasion is a great defensive ability, and there is absolutely not any competition in that regard with Warcaster or Shield contrarily to what you say.
- Shield is a spell that adds to AC, so irrelevant against DEX saves. Even if that were the case, it costs some slots that could be used on other things. Shield Master is permanent.
- Booming Blade is as situational as any other: it requires you to have a) an enemy b) that moves away without Disengaging c) you being in a situation in which you guess there is no major threat against you until the start of your next turn. That will probably happen more often than you being subjected to a DEX save, with that said, as a frontliner you will also face those on a regular basis.
- Absorb Element is a spell that halves damage, a) it just diminishes the hurt b) costs a slot, again. It's a great option to have when you just know that you failed the save, but worlds lesser than Shield Master that helps you achieve a successful save AND gives you a no-damage option.

Especially on an Eldricht Knight that goes DEX-based and sword and board it's good, because the +2 helps getting a bonus to save in the range of a Bard (= good) while preventing full damage for a much lesser cost in the day than other features. AND keeps the "Resilient" space free for the much more important Wisdom saves proficiency.

So none of these three features are competing with each other (unlike Defensive Duelist vs Shield for example), because they cater to different situations. And you are still the one to choose whether to use them or not (deciding not to use Shield Master and take full damage to keep a chance at OA can be perfectly fine choice: at least you had all cards in hand to evaluate what the most efficient option was).

To say otherwise, Shield Master synergizes with a Dex-based EK by improving one of his forte (Dex-saves) and boosting his overall resilience while sparing his very scarce resources (slots) and defensive options (Wisdom). :)