Retiering the Classes: Incarnate, Soulborn, and Totemist

[eggynack]

Been a while since the last of these, but now seems the arbitrary time to get back into it with the incarnum classes. The incarnate, the versatile skill monkey of the group, the totemist, with its fancy natural attacks, and, last and definitely least, the soulborn, with its mostly crappiness. I'ma keep these descriptions pretty short, so we can get on with the voting stuff.

Incarnate (MoI, 20): This may be the most divisive class of the set, with a tendency towards versatility and a buncha room for optimization.

Soulborn (MoI, 25): This may be the least divisive class of the set. Cause it's bad. Not actually all that much incarnum here, but such is the way of things.

Totemist (MoI, 29): This is the mediumest divisive class of the set, with its fancy natural weapon based face punchery.



What are the tiers?

The simple answer here is that tier one is the best, the home of things on the approximate problem solving scale of wizards, and tier six is the worst, land of commoners. And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high.

A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0) are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked.

Consistent throughout these tiers is the notion of problems and the solving thereof. For the purposes of this tier system, the problem space can be said to be inclusive of combat, social interaction, and exploration, with the heaviest emphasis placed on combat. A problem could theoretically fall outside of that space, but things inside that space are definitely problems. Another way to view the idea of problem solving is through the lens of the niche ranking system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System). A niche filled tends to imply the capacity to solve a type of problem, whether it's a status condition in the case of healing, or an enemy that just has too many hit points in the case of melee combat. It's not a perfect measure, both because some niches have a lot of overlap in the kinds of problems they can solve and because, again, the niches aren't necessarily all inclusive, but they can act as a good tool for class evaluation.

Tier one: Incredibly good at solving nearly all problems. This is the realm of clerics, druids, and wizards, classes that open up with strong combat spells backed up by utility, and then get massively stronger from there. If you're not keeping up with that core trio of tier one casters, then you probably don't belong here.

Tier two: We're just a step below tier one here, in the land of classes around the sorcerer level of power. Generally speaking, this means relaxing one of the two tier one assumptions, either getting us to very good at solving nearly all problems, or incredibly good at solving most problems. But, as will continue to be the case as these tiers go on, there aren't necessarily these two simple categories for this tier. You gotta lose something compared to the tier one casters, but what you lose doesn't have to be in some really specific proportions.

Tier three: Again, we gotta sacrifice something compared to tier two, here taking us to around the level of a swordsage. The usual outcome is that you are very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more. Of course, there are other possibilities, for example that you might instead be competent at solving nearly all problems.

Tier four: Here we're in ranger/barbarian territory (though the ranger should be considered largely absent of ACF's and stuff to hit this tier, as will be talked about later). Starting from that standard tier three position, the usual sweet spots here are very good at solving a few problems, or alright at solving many problems.

Tier five: We're heading close to the dregs here. Tier five is the tier of monks, classes that are as bad as you can be without being an aristocrat or a commoner. Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof. It's weak, is the point.

Tier six: And here we have commoner tier. Or, the bottom is commoner. The top is approximately aristocrat. You don't necessarily have nothing in this tier, but you have close enough to it.



The Threads

Tier System Home Base (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?515845-Retiering-the-Classes-Home-Base&p=21722272#post21722272)


The Obvious Tier One Classes: Archivist, Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Sha'ir, and Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516137-Retiering-the-Classes-Archivist-Artificer-Cleric-Druid-Sha-ir-and-Wizard&p=21731809#post21731809)


The Mundane Beat Sticks (part one): Barbarian, Fighter, Samurai (CW), and Samurai (OA) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516602-Retiering-the-Classes-Barbarian-Fighter-Samurai-(CW)-and-Samurai-(OA)&p=21747927#post21747927)


The Roguelikes: Ninja, Rogue, and Scout (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517091-Retiering-the-Classes-Ninja-Rogue-and-Scout)


The Pseudo-Druids: Spirit Shaman, Spontaneous Druid, Urban Druid, and Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517370-Retiering-the-Classes-Spirit-Shaman-Spontaneous-Druid-Urban-Druid-and-WS-Ranger&p=21774657#post21774657)


The Jacks of All Trades: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517967-Retiering-the-Classes-Bard-Factotum-and-Jester&p=21794327#post21794327)


The Tome of Battlers: Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518495-Retiering-the-Classes-Crusader-Swordsage-and-Warblade&p=21815193#post21815193)


The NPCs: Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Magewright, and Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519155-Retiering-the-Classes-Adept-Aristocrat-Commoner-Expert-Magewright-and-Warrior&p=21838412)


The Vaguely Supernatural Melee Folk: Battle Dancer, Monk, Mountebank, and Soulknife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519701-Retiering-the-Classes-Battle-Dancer-Monk-Mountebank-and-Soulknife)


The Miscellaneous Full Casters: Death Master, Shaman, Shugenja, Sorcerer, and Wu Jen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520291-Retiering-the-Classes-Death-Master-Shugenja-Sorcerer-Wu-Jen&p=21878654#post21878654)


The Wacky Magicists: Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Shadowcaster, Truenamer, and Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520903-Retiering-the-Classes-Binder-Dragonfire-Adept-Shadowcaster-Truenamer-Warlock&p=21898782#post21898782)


The Rankings
Incarnate:

Soulborn:

Totemist:

And here's a link to the spreadsheet. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hj9_9PQg6tXACUWZY_Egm2R9Gtvg9nXRTPfGYnAfh9w/edit)

[Lans]

Incarnate tier 4- It can do so, so much, but it does it so meh. Its probably a low 3 for the first few levels, but with how it scales your options are basically being a poor fighter or skill monkey with some ability to swap up on the fly.

Totemist low 3- an uber charger that can do some skills, wild empathy, mobility and debuffs

Soulborn- High 5, it can play like a slightly worse barbarian from level 4 on. Edit- Maybe a low 4, it can get +4/8 to hit and damage for a feat, and +1 to hit and damage naturally.

[Waker]

Incarnate- Tier 3. The Incarnate is one of those classes that lacks outright power, but can be good at just about anything. Between a large and diverse list of soulmelds, the largest essentia pool and access to nearly all chakra points, they have no shortage of options. An Incarnate can't compete with specialists, a Fighter can outdamage them, a Rogue can outsneak them and so on, but they can become competent at just about whatever you need. During the course of a day, they can tweak whatever they specialize in by adjusting essentia distribution and rapid meldshaping. But like a prepared caster, they can nearly change their entire build the next day. Some of the roles an incarnate can play: Warrior, Skillmonkey, Group-hug, and even fake being a healer if they need to.

Totemist- Low Tier 3/High Tier 4. The Totemist is a lot of fun, but lacks the sheer versatility of an Incarnate. The main problem being that their selection of soulmelds shoe-horns them into specific roles. Nearly every Totemist meld basically grants a mix of three things: damage (melee natural attacks), movement (flight, climb, speed) and scouting (Hide/Move Silently, Listen/Spot, Scent). In many ways, they are comparable to Ranger. Now the Totemist can change their melds daily, but mostly those are just small adjustments to a build rather than a complete overhaul.

Soulborn-Mid Tier 4/High Tier 5. Even more so than the Totemist, when you eventually do get melds, they tend to push you towards combat. There are the odd melds here and there that let you perform outside of combat, such as Silvertongue Mask or Truthseeker Goggles, but with the delayed chakra access and tiny essentia pool you can't really capitalize on them. Mostly you are relegated to combat, which you can do with competence. Smite Opposition can be used against a variety of enemies (5/9 possible alignments), you get a few bonus feats and the combat melds let you be flexible enough to deal with what comes your way.

[LTwerewolf]

Incarnate: I'd say it would have to be tier 4. It doesn't do any one thing amazingly well, and while it has a lot of options, they tend to feel kind of underwhelming compared to other jacks of all trades.

Totemist: Also tier 4. It's very much like a barbarian where it does one thing really well. It does it less well than the barb, but trades that for a small amount of utility. That utility is even more underwhelming than the incarnate. It's not bad at what it does, by any extent, but there are definitely others that do it better.

Soulborn: Tier 5, solidly. They're reminiscent of paladins without splat support. Not very good even at the thing they do.

[Lans]

Incarnate- Tier 3. The Incarnate is one of those classes that lacks outright power, but can be good at just about anything. Between a large and diverse list of soulmelds, the largest essentia pool and access to nearly all chakra points, they have no shortage of options. An Incarnate can't compete with specialists, a Fighter can outdamage them, a Rogue can outsneak them and so on, but they can become competent at just about whatever you need. During the course of a day, they can tweak whatever they specialize in by adjusting essentia distribution and rapid meldshaping. But like a prepared caster, they can nearly change their entire build the next day. Some of the roles an incarnate can play: Warrior, Skillmonkey, Group-hug, and even fake being a healer if they need to.


I don't think this leads to tier 3, it doesn't really do anything well. It can basically be a weak warlock, an expert, or a fighter which makes its versatile, the problem comes is that those are all weak classes and the list of things it can actually solve by itself are slim.

[ottdmk]

Soulborn-Mid Tier 4/High Tier 5. Even more so than the Totemist, when you eventually do get melds, they tend to push you towards combat. There are the odd melds here and there that let you perform outside of combat, such as Silvertongue Mask or Truthseeker Goggles, but with the delayed chakra access and tiny essentia pool you can't really capitalize on them. Mostly you are relegated to combat, which you can do with competence. Smite Opposition can be used against a variety of enemies (5/9 possible alignments), you get a few bonus feats and the combat melds let you be flexible enough to deal with what comes your way.I'm not really arguing against your assessment here, but as far as capitalizing on non-combat melds: Well, within the limitations of the number of melds you get as a Soulborn, you can capitalize on them pretty well. The main thing to remember is that while a Soulborn's essentia pool is small, essentia capacity is also small.

Take an 8th level Soulborn vs an 8th level Incarnate. The Soulborn has 2 Melds/day with an Essentia Pool of 4. The Incarnate has 5 Melds/day with an Essentia Pool of 8. But if you send out either one on a social mission the odds are good that both would shape Silvertongue Mask & Truthseeker Goggles, and the Incarnate only gets to add +2 Essentia to those thanks to Expanded Soulmeld Capacity +1. Binds don't really come into it, as neither one of them can bind to the Brow Chakra yet, let alone the Throat.

Naturally, the Incarnate comes out ahead on bonuses in the situation thanks to the extra point of Essentia per meld. The Soulborn might come out ahead overall though, as a Soulborn will have at least one social skill as Class. The Soulborn also has the option of melding a Soulspeaker Circlet which grants Comprehend Languages & Tongues (as he could bind the Circlet to the Brow), although he'd have to give up one of the other melds.

Anyways, I ramble. I like Soulborns; while demonstrably mechanically inferior I still think they're a lot of fun. :smallsmile:

[Soranar]

Incarnate and Totemist, high tier 4

The melds are good but limited in scope. It's not as easy as a binder to switch things around but you can switch things around.

Out of combat uses, however, are very limited though they have a lot of movement modes available. (thus the high tier 4 instead of medium tier 4).

Kind of like a warlock but less versatile due to the limit of what melds can do or how many you can have at a time.

Soulborn, tier 5

as above but weaker in every aspect

[Cosi]

Totemist seems pretty clearly better than Incarnate. Totemist is a passable blender type with the right melds, Incarnate sucks at basically everything (and gets rated highly because people here think sucking at a different thing every day makes you good).

[Lans]

Totemist seems pretty clearly better than Incarnate. Totemist is a passable blender type with the right melds, Incarnate sucks at basically everything (and gets rated highly because people here think sucking at a different thing every day makes you good).

I think part of the problem is that the Incarnate is front loaded with the expanded capacity feat, so it can get +6-8 to a skill at level 1, or +5 to damage or 2d6 touch attack, and the next capacity expansion keeps the abilities competitive. For the first few levels, before the capacity progression and its bad chasis cripples its competiveness.

It can make a heck of a tank though, with mantle of flame, dr, miss chance and extra hp.

[ottdmk]

Just a small correction: Incarnates don't get Expanded Soulmeld Capacity until L3.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How on earth are people rating the Totemist at 4? You have multiple excellent offensive options (Natural weapon blender, Manticore Tail archer, blaster with things like Yrthak Mask, save-or-loser with things like Frost Helm) in your Totem slot alone. Like, the Totem meld makes you T4 all by itself, I'd argue. And you'll have two of those at 9th, mind you.

But that's not where the class ends. You can get quite significant bonuses to Balance, Bluff, Climb, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Profession (Sailor), Ride, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Use Rope. That's a huge list of things to easily get a significant bonus to. It's hardly just "one thing well."

Oh, but that's still not the end of it, because that's not even touching the special abilities. Flipping through my summary sheet, you can get

Speak with Animals
Track
Telepathy
Pseudo-Tremorsense
Bonus to all Strength checks
Swim speed
Grappling
Improving your allies' defenses
Detect Magic
Detect Psionics
Detect Evil
20% miss chance
Fast flight
Magic Circle Against Evil
Assorted energy resistances
Ethereal movement
Darkness
Blink at-will
Tactical teleportation
Spell Resistance
Water Breathing
Climb Speed
Extra hit points
Fast healing up to half health
Save bonuses
AC bonuses


Oh, and that's not even touching how friggin multi-class friendly Incarnum stuff is. Want a skill boost or utility ability not on your list? You can probably get it with Shape Soulmeld. It's right there in the book, and it's not like your feat setup is that demanding-- Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and Extra Chakra Bind ASAP, maybe Bonus Essentia and Multiattack. (Or, heck, a one-level dip in Incarnate gets you another 14 skills you can boost, though that's beyond what this system is evaluating)

So... no, the Totemist is absolutely not just "a melee attacker who can scout a bit." They can stab you, shoot you, debuff you, or save-or-lose you. They can pick up significant skill boosts, talk to animals, fly, teleport, and walk through walls. They can shrug off magic and operate in just about any environment with no issues. They're almost as dangerous naked as they are with gear.

Totemists have a strong and varied offensive suite, a useful specialty (mobility/scouting) at which they're about as good as it gets without magic, and they still have a decent set of options outside of that. Totemists are about the best example of a Tier 3 class there is, and I can't for the life of me understand why they're getting pegged at 4.

------------

Incarnates are T4, mostly because they need to multiclass to keep their offense up to par, and Soulborn are T5, I think. I'll write more when I have time.

[daremetoidareyo]

Everything grod said is what I would say.

[Zombulian]

I have to agree with Grod here. I have a feeling that everyone rating Totemist as tier 4 have never played one. I'll say tier 3.

Incarnate is neat, but single-classed it can be a little underwhelming. If they had 3/4 BAB and 4+int skills per level, I may rate them as 3. As is, I'd say 4.

Soulborn is kinda cool, I use it sometimes in builds. It's not too good, but it's about as effective as a fighter. Has neat abilities, but isn't very MAD. Tier 5.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I have to agree with Grod here. I have a feeling that everyone rating Totemist as tier 4 have never played one. I'll say tier 3.
Or looked at the Soulmelds in any depth. Or even at what they're writing, because "good melee + exotic movement abilities + good scouting" sure doesn't sound T4.

[Zombulian]

Or looked at the Soulmelds in any depth. Or even at what they're writing, because "good melee + exotic movement abilities + good scouting" sure doesn't sound T4.

Lmao. Yeah wait, since when is "good at at least 3 things" less than tier 3?

[Waker]

Take an 8th level Soulborn vs an 8th level Incarnate. The Soulborn has 2 Melds/day with an Essentia Pool of 4. The Incarnate has 5 Melds/day with an Essentia Pool of 8. But if you send out either one on a social mission the odds are good that both would shape Silvertongue Mask & Truthseeker Goggles, and the Incarnate only gets to add +2 Essentia to those thanks to Expanded Soulmeld Capacity +1. Binds don't really come into it, as neither one of them can bind to the Brow Chakra yet, let alone the Throat.
Oh, I'm well aware that Soulborn can contribute a little bit to non-combat situations, but they are kinda limited. If you know beyond a doubt that you are definitely gonna be in a social situation with no chance of combat, you can safely prep the right melds and help out. Compared to that though, an Incarnate of the same level can get a +8 to Bluff/Diplomacy/Gather Information/Search/Sense Motive between Silvertongue+Truthseeker and still have three extra melds and two essentia left over.


Oh, but that's still not the end of it, because that's not even touching the special abilities. Flipping through my summary sheet, you can get
I'm not gonna reply to all of these because many of them are legitimately good. There are a few that are really situational though.

Pseudo-Tremorsense
As a move action, you can detect the presence of a creature that is touching the ground within 10ft+5ft per essentia, but not pinpoint. It could be useful in the case of a burrowing creature and invisible creatures touching the ground. It's not like it is terrible, but that is something that is available only by using a chakra bind.

Improving your allies' defenses
I like Lammasu Mantle. But sharing the bonus to ac and saves is something that can be done at level 9 at the earliest, and your allies have to be within 10ft.

Detect Magic
Detect Psionics
Detect can be useful if you feel like your DM likes to use a lot of illusory type magic against the party. The party constantly saying "I detect magic" every time they change scenes or meet a new NPC will practically guarantee that your DM will be annoyed. More of an anecdotal statement I know, but at-will Detect Magic can be a pain when the DM constantly needs to stop and further describe something. Being able to suppress a magic item (no spells) in exchange for your totem chakra doesn't seem worth it.

Fast healing up to half health
Fast Healing is always a nice feature. However when it is limited to 1/2 and requires the Heart chakra at level 17 to use, it suddenly loses some of its luster.

Or looked at the Soulmelds in any depth. Or even at what they're writing, because "good melee + exotic movement abilities + good scouting" sure doesn't sound T4.
I can't help but feel people disagree with my assessment of the Totemist since this point keeps getting brought up. Your points about a lot of the other things that a Totemist can do have merit. I don't contest that Totemist are incredibly versatile. But one thing that the designers seemed to put way too much emphasis on is the role of a scout.
Let's say that the Totemist is a sneaky-bastard grandmaster. To that I say "So what?". The issue with that role is that the Totemist has nothing else to do while they scout. They lack the skills or class abilities to detect or disable traps, find hidden doors, steal the guards' keys or whatever other roles a scout would normally be expected to do. They might be able to sneak ahead with impunity, but how does that help the party? The only thing they could do is maybe provide some valuable bit of intel that the party couldn't acquire otherwise or engage in combat solo. And the latter is something that many DMs are likely to try to avoid since having just one party member fighting means the rest are sitting around doing nothing.

The other thing that hurts Totemists is that a great deal of their soulmelds provide competence bonuses. Incarnum already has some difficulty playing nice with magic items, but since the majority of magic items from the DMG grant the same bonus type to skills, Totemists can't benefit from all of them.
So yeah, I'd say Totemist is a T3 class, but I could see people placing it right on the border of T3/4.

[Soranar]

While I lump up totemist and incarnate together, the reasons come with the mechanic of soulmelds more than anything about the chassis of each class

-you only have so many meld slots
-melds can usually only do 1 good thing and a few mediocre things
-souldmeld capacity is a real restriction when you want to do several things
-it's very easy to make a great specialist with souldmelds, it's next to impossible to make a generalist

Compare a totemist to a barbarian

-great damage (barb will do more with less feats)
-pounce (barb too)
-find and disarm trap (through ACF, totemist can't do that)
-Barb's chassis is significantly better
-Barb can optimize intimidate for combat and outside of it
-Barb can probably track too
-magic items can cover the Barb's weaknesses (flight, etc)

that is still tier 4, you're just too restricted though you're good at everything you do

A barb will outshine a totemist in most situations. On top of that souldmelds can take up magic item slots, that is a big issue to consider.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Incarnate: Low Tier 3

Totemist: Tier 4

Soulborn: High Tier 5



I have to agree with Grod here. I have a feeling that everyone rating Totemist as tier 4 have never played one. I'll say tier 3.

I played one. After a while I started to wonder why I was staying in Totemist, when after level 2...there's really not much. Went Totemist 2 / Incarnate X and found it much better overall. Obviously out of combat, but even in combat, Incarnate (especially lawful or evil) can get several attack or damage buffs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

-great damage (barb will do more with less feats)
A charger build is using Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack. That's a lot of feats. A Totemist can do good damage with... honestly, they really don't even need Multiattack. Rapidstrike, maybe?


-find and disarm trap (through ACF, totemist can't do that)
Barbarians take a -5 penalty to find them, and have severe restrictions on what sorts can actually be disarmed. Magic traps are a complete no-go, as is anything you can't reach without triggering. Totemists, on the other hand, can take Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves) and get a goodly set of thief skills, and Threefold Mask of the Chimera is a solid offensive totem meld that gives you a Search bonus. Boom.

-Barb's chassis is significantly better

-Barb can optimize intimidate for combat and outside of it
Intimidating Rage is a good feat, sure. To contrast, Totemists can shape Brass Mane to net an easy +8 or more bonus, and the rest is just feats and skill tricks. Call it a wash.


-Barb can probably track too
Uhh, nope. Not unless they spend a feat. Totemists are just as likely to have invested in Survival, but they can get Track via a bind, they can get significant bonuses to Survival, and they can even get a Scent-type ability if they really want. (They probably won't, because doing so takes up their totem slot, but they can). Advantage: Totemist, by a lot.


-magic items can cover the Barb's weaknesses (flight, etc)
That's true for literally every class in the game, up to and including commoners, so I'm not sure what your point is. If anything, it's an argument for the Totemist-- every necessary defense/utility ability you can produce yourself is a


that is still tier 4, you're just too restricted though you're good at everything you do
Bull. The Barbarian is the classic Tier 4, and the Totemist can do everything the Barbarian can and far more besides. The Warblade apparently got pegged at 3 again, and the Totemist has almost as much combat punch and far more utility.


A barb will outshine a totemist in most situations. On top of that souldmelds can take up magic item slots, that is a big issue to consider.
Bound soulmelds take up magic item slots; others don't. Some care buying items and the MIC rules for combining effects will leave you fine.


I played one. After a while I started to wonder why I was staying in Totemist, when after level 2...there's really not much. Went Totemist 2 / Incarnate X and found it much better overall. Obviously out of combat, but even in combat, Incarnate (especially lawful or evil) can get several attack or damage buffs.
That's kind of an issue with both of the Incarnum classes, truth be told. An Incarnate or Totemist makes a solid character, but both get such ridiculously huge benefits from dabbling in the other that it's really hard not to justify doing so. Given that the binds unlocked from feats and PrCs work for both lists simultaneously, I kind of feel like neither pure Totemist nor pure Incarnate is as good as a Totemist/Incarnate/Ironsoul Forgemaster, or some such.

[Zombulian]

A charger build is using Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack. That's a lot of feats. A Totemist can do good damage with... honestly, they really don't even need Multiattack. Rapidstrike, maybe?


Barbarians take a -5 penalty to find them, and have severe restrictions on what sorts can actually be disarmed. Magic traps are a complete no-go, as is anything you can't reach without triggering. Totemists, on the other hand, can take Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves) and get a goodly set of thief skills, and Threefold Mask of the Chimera is a solid offensive totem meld that gives you a Search bonus. Boom.

-Barb's chassis is significantly better

Intimidating Rage is a good feat, sure. To contrast, Totemists can shape Brass Mane to net an easy +8 or more bonus, and the rest is just feats and skill tricks. Call it a wash.


Uhh, nope. Not unless they spend a feat. Totemists are just as likely to have invested in Survival, but they can get Track via a bind, they can get significant bonuses to Survival, and they can even get a Scent-type ability if they really want. (They probably won't, because doing so takes up their totem slot, but they can). Advantage: Totemist, by a lot.


That's true for literally every class in the game, up to and including commoners, so I'm not sure what your point is. If anything, it's an argument for the Totemist-- every necessary defense/utility ability you can produce yourself is a


Bull. The Barbarian is the classic Tier 4, and the Totemist can do everything the Barbarian can and far more besides. The Warblade apparently got pegged at 3 again, and the Totemist has almost as much combat punch and far more utility.


Bound soulmelds take up magic item slots; others don't. Some care buying items and the MIC rules for combining effects will leave you fine.


That's kind of an issue with both of the Incarnum classes, truth be told. An Incarnate or Totemist makes a solid character, but both get such ridiculously huge benefits from dabbling in the other that it's really hard not to justify doing so. Given that the binds unlocked from feats and PrCs work for both lists simultaneously, I kind of feel like neither pure Totemist nor pure Incarnate is as good as a Totemist/Incarnate/Ironsoul Forgemaster, or some such.

Thank you for this. I was triggered by the comparison with Barbarian last night but it was too late for me to put together a comprehensive response.
Edit: I'd also like to note that Barb isn't the only one who can have pounce. Guess what? Totemist can get it through a bind. Read their freakin abilities people.

[StreamOfTheSky]

That's kind of an issue with both of the Incarnum classes, truth be told. An Incarnate or Totemist makes a solid character, but both get such ridiculously huge benefits from dabbling in the other that it's really hard not to justify doing so. Given that the binds unlocked from feats and PrCs work for both lists simultaneously, I kind of feel like neither pure Totemist nor pure Incarnate is as good as a Totemist/Incarnate/Ironsoul Forgemaster, or some such.
But I mean specifically... dipping Totemist for the Totem chakra, then plunging most of your levels into Incarnate seems far more useful than dipping Incarnate and mostly doing Totemist. Totemist beyond the first levels really just doesn't offer that much.... either in class features nor variety of meld abilities. Incarnate offers so much more. So I think Incarnate is the better class.


Edit: I'd also like to note that Barb isn't the only one who can have pounce. Guess what? Totemist can get it through a bind. Read their freakin abilities people.

But that takes a chakra slot, and those are very few in number, lock out that body slot for magic items, and comes much later than simply dipping Barbarian.

I'd much rather play Barb 1 (or 2 if you want Uncanny Dodge or Imp. Trip) / Totemist 2 / Incarnate X than any other base class mix or single class build focused on incarnum.

[Gemini476]

Detect can be useful if you feel like your DM likes to use a lot of illusory type magic against the party. The party constantly saying "I detect magic" every time they change scenes or meet a new NPC will practically guarantee that your DM will be annoyed. More of an anecdotal statement I know, but at-will Detect Magic can be a pain when the DM constantly needs to stop and further describe something. Being able to suppress a magic item (no spells) in exchange for your totem chakra doesn't seem worth it.

At some point at-will Detection spells get lumped into the "standard practices" column of things that are just assumed to be done without having to explicitly say it - the classic example from way back in the 1E DMG is IIRC that when players say "I listen at the door" they mean "the Fighter removes their helmet, listens to the the door through an Ear Seeker-proof glass, and the Fighter puts their helmet on again."

So it's not that the DM constantly needs to stop and further describe things, really, it's just that whenever there's something magical in the scene they now point it out to the players (possibly including school and strength, if the players are interested enough in that). It's like how you eventually don't need to tell the DM that your Paladin Detects Evil the moment they meet someone but instead just says "yeah, they're evil" because they assume that you're itching for some validation of your class choice.
Except, of course, magical auras are probably less common than evil NPCs and if something is magical the players are probably happy to know about it.

Moreover, it's kind of useful to have when RAW most magic items don't even tell you that they're magical? Or what they are, necessarily?
Take an animated shield that you find in the middle of a weapon storage room. 1% chance of being intelligent, 30% chance of having something that "provides a clue to its function", and 69% chance of looking pretty much the same as a nonmagical equivalent.
Without Detect Magic, you might not know that it's even magical - and with Detect Magic you also know that it has a Stong Transmutation aura, which narrows things down a lot.
Remember, Identify takes an hour and a 100gp pearl!

Also, since Detect Magic catches lingering auras you can kinda-sorta use it to help in manual tracking.


It's a versatile ability, basically. I don't know of it alone pushes you into Tier 3, but it's definitely worth putting on a list of notable abilities.

[Bakkan]

I can't help but feel people disagree with my assessment of the Totemist since this point keeps getting brought up. Your points about a lot of the other things that a Totemist can do have merit. I don't contest that Totemist are incredibly versatile. But one thing that the designers seemed to put way too much emphasis on is the role of a scout.
Let's say that the Totemist is a sneaky-bastard grandmaster. To that I say "So what?". The issue with that role is that the Totemist has nothing else to do while they scout. They lack the skills or class abilities to detect or disable traps, find hidden doors, steal the guards' keys or whatever other roles a scout would normally be expected to do. They might be able to sneak ahead with impunity, but how does that help the party? The only thing they could do is maybe provide some valuable bit of intel that the party couldn't acquire otherwise or engage in combat solo. And the latter is something that many DMs are likely to try to avoid since having just one party member fighting means the rest are sitting around doing nothing.


Acquiring intel on enemies and challenges is the most effective way to overcome them. I, for one, always want to either end an encounter before it begins, or begin the encounter with as large a lopsided advantage for my side as possible. I would love to have a Totemist sneak into a castle, find out that there's a young red dragon guarding the keep, and report back so we can all drink our resist fire potions, prep our cones of cold, and reshape our soulmelds before heading in. That, to me, seems far more valuable then letting the barbarian kick in the door and soak the damage with his hit points.

[Waker]

Acquiring intel on enemies and challenges is the most effective way to overcome them. I, for one, always want to either end an encounter before it begins, or begin the encounter with as large a lopsided advantage for my side as possible. I would love to have a Totemist sneak into a castle, find out that there's a young red dragon guarding the keep, and report back so we can all drink our resist fire potions, prep our cones of cold, and reshape our soulmelds before heading in. That, to me, seems far more valuable then letting the barbarian kick in the door and soak the damage with his hit points.

I don't deny that intel is important, but Totemists lack several key features to pull it off. What happens when the Totemist who's run off alone comes across a locked door, or accidentally triggers a trap, or can't identify whatever else the DM has them looking for? That's why I said they maybe can get the intel the party needs. Totemists can be competent sneakers. What they lack though are access to Trapfinding, Disable Device and reliable boosts to Search. They get precisely one soulmeld that boosts Search (Chimera Mask) and that only adds +1 per essentia. And that's to say they can correctly identify whatever they are looking for. They do get a few Knowledge skills as class skills (Arcana, Nature, The Planes), but they lack many of the other useful ones to identify creatures (Dungeoneering, Local, Religion). Further compounding the issue is that they only get 4 skill points per level and no soulmelds increase Knowledge checks.
So if the Totemist scouts an area with no traps or other mechanisms and can come across intel which fits into their area of specialization, then they are gold.

[arclance]

At some point at-will Detection spells get lumped into the "standard practices" column of things that are just assumed to be done without having to explicitly say it - the classic example from way back in the 1E DMG is IIRC that when players say "I listen at the door" they mean "the Fighter removes their helmet, listens to the the door through an Ear Seeker-proof glass, and the Fighter puts their helmet on again."
Not all GMs are that good or nice.
Just read one of the "Worst DM Ever" type threads, the exact opposite of what you describe is a called the "Gotcha GM" who assumes if you did not say you did something you did not do it and will not negotiate on that point.
One example that stands out to me is "Never said you were feeding your horses, Ha they drop dead after a week."

[Bakkan]

I don't deny that intel is important, but Totemists lack several key features to pull it off. What happens when the Totemist who's run off alone comes across a locked door, or accidentally triggers a trap, or can't identify whatever else the DM has them looking for? That's why I said they maybe can get the intel the party needs. Totemists can be competent sneakers. What they lack though are access to Trapfinding, Disable Device and reliable boosts to Search. They get precisely one soulmeld that boosts Search (Chimera Mask) and that only adds +1 per essentia. And that's to say they can correctly identify whatever they are looking for. They do get a few Knowledge skills as class skills (Arcana, Nature, The Planes), but they lack many of the other useful ones to identify creatures (Dungeoneering, Local, Religion). Further compounding the issue is that they only get 4 skill points per level and no soulmelds increase Knowledge checks.
So if the Totemist scouts an area with no traps or other mechanisms and can come across intel which fits into their area of specialization, then they are gold.

The blink shirt soulmeld takes care of locked doors and many other obstacles, while the displacer mantle and either the krenshar mask or kruthik claws take care of stealth skill checks. The phase cloak gives significant bonuses to climb and, at level 9, allows the Totemist to be ethereal whenever he likes. Totemists have good Fortitude and Reflex saves and most will invest in Con and Dex, so they are likely to make many saves against traps. You have a good point that they have little in-class way to boost Search, however a Totemist gets more benefit out of taking the Shape Soulmeld (Truthseeker Goggles) feat than almost any other class. Knowledge skills are admittedly harder to boost without items.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't deny that intel is important, but Totemists lack several key features to pull it off. What happens when the Totemist who's run off alone comes across a locked door, or accidentally triggers a trap, or can't identify whatever else the DM has them looking for? That's why I said they maybe can get the intel the party needs. Totemists can be competent sneakers. What they lack though are access to Trapfinding, Disable Device and reliable boosts to Search. They get precisely one soulmeld that boosts Search (Chimera Mask) and that only adds +1 per essentia. And that's to say they can correctly identify whatever they are looking for. They do get a few Knowledge skills as class skills (Arcana, Nature, The Planes), but they lack many of the other useful ones to identify creatures (Dungeoneering, Local, Religion). Further compounding the issue is that they only get 4 skill points per level and no soulmelds increase Knowledge checks.
So if the Totemist scouts an area with no traps or other mechanisms and can come across intel which fits into their area of specialization, then they are gold.
They're not perfect (though, again, Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves) and possbily Open Least Chakra (Hands) are great choices if you're the party rogue-like; Totemists natively need very few feats to operate), but they're a damn sight better than just about any other non-caster in the game. If we're allowing things like the Warblade and Psychic Warrior to be T3 because they're strong and versatile combatants with a few tricks... Totemists are strong and versatile combatants with more tricks than either.

[Waker]

The blink shirt soulmeld takes care of locked doors and many other obstacles, while the displacer mantle and either the krenshar mask or kruthik claws take care of stealth skill checks. The phase cloak gives significant bonuses to climb and, at level 9, allows the Totemist to be ethereal whenever he likes. Totemists have good Fortitude and Reflex saves and most will invest in Con and Dex, so they are likely to make many saves against traps.
My point about not being able to find and deal with traps is two-fold. You've got good saves and plenty of special movement qualities, not worried about the totemist being trapped/disabled by a trap. If however you are playing metal gear solid by yourself and whatever trap you tripped leads to combat (it makes noise, pitfall onto an ooze, whatever) then now you need to make the party standby even longer while you fight/die/run.
Alternatively while you were flying, teleporting or whatever you didn't find any of the traps. Then when the party does come through they end up being subjected to it.
The point I'm making is that if the totemist is off scouting and the rest of the party needs to wait for them, they should be all but guaranteed to either acquire all the intel they were sent to find or deal with any issues outside the realm of combat.


They're not perfect (though, again, Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves) and possbily Open Least Chakra (Hands) are great choices if you're the party rogue-like; Totemists natively need very few feats to operate), but they're a damn sight better than just about any other non-caster in the game.
A class having no bonus feats having to take two feats to fulfill what is supposed to be one of the class's roles is kinda insulting actually.


If we're allowing things like the Warblade and Psychic Warrior to be T3 because they're strong and versatile combatants with a few tricks... Totemists are strong and versatile combatants with more tricks than either.
I wasn't involved in the debate about those classes, but honestly I would put Warblade at T4. They are better than Fighter, but I don't think they have the chops for T3. So yeah, I would say Totemist is more versatile since I rated them at T3/4.

[Soranar]

They're not perfect (though, again, Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves) and possbily Open Least Chakra (Hands) are great choices if you're the party rogue-like; Totemists natively need very few feats to operate), but they're a damn sight better than just about any other non-caster in the game. If we're allowing things like the Warblade and Psychic Warrior to be T3 because they're strong and versatile combatants with a few tricks... Totemists are strong and versatile combatants with more tricks than either.

Well I won't defend the Warblade's tier 3 status (since I was against it)

but a crusader?

A crusader can take 11 on any roll, once per round so as a skillmonkey he is surprisingly effective and reliable
A crusader can heal while attacking (you lose nothing by doing so except using a stronger stance)
No reason not to get the mountain hammer maneuver to destroy everything in your path

Oh and a crusader can fight pretty well and he has the best recovery method of all the initiator classes, he can also grant actions to other characters

As for a psychic warrior he can pick any power through expanded knowledge
He gets a ton of bonus feats that let him take expanded knowledge and a lot of other useful feats
He can craft dorjes to get around his PP limitation
And many of his native powers are quite good , most of the effects they create are difficult to duplicate with items
like say his ability to grow two sizes beore smacking you

He can also heal, recover ability damage, gain move actions, concealment, teleport, get freedom of movement, etc

And all of his abilities are always available as long as he has PP, a totemist needs to pick and choose his abilities each day

As for a totemist's damage being comparable to a barbarian without spending feats?
Even a barbarian that's not using any feats

will max out STR (say 18 for the sake of argument)
use a 2 handed weapon
rage (at least +4 STR and +1 attack at -2)
charge with pounce
get around 2d6 damage + 9 (18 STR +4 x 1.5) + iteratives

so at level 1 he does 2d6 damage +9 and his damage (and BAB) will scale with the extra attacks he gets and the increased STR bonus from rage and stats

a totemist might be able to get a bunch of natural attacks but once you go through DR a bunch of low damage attacks are not as good as 1 strong hit and a barbarian gets 2 hit at level

the exact same thing applies to archery (so manticore belt has the same issue)

And that same barbarian also makes one of the better archers in game with essentially the same build and a magic weapon (hank's energy bow)

A barbarian doesn't need to be an ubercharger to have decent damage but a barbarian makes the best uberchargers or a reason

But the real issue with souldmelds is that essentia capacity is way too limited. It's like you have access to a bunch of spells (or spell like abilities) but you only get to use a couple of them at a time. And if you use one for situational purposes, you're stuck gimping your other roles HARD.

Now compare that to a bard?

I still say a totemist more comparable to a Barbarian ( good at 1 thing at any given time, capable of a few other things on the side) than to a bard (always has something worthwhile to contribute)

It's just too easy to be stuck with the wrong melds or having no essentia to power what you need at the moment

[Waker]

so at level 1 he does 2d6 damage +9 and his damage (and BAB) will scale with the extra attacks he gets and the increased STR bonus from rage and stats

a totemist might be able to get a bunch of natural attacks but once you go through DR a bunch of low damage attacks are not as good as 1 strong hit and a barbarian gets 2 hit at level
A Totemist would be just as inclined to focus on increasing their strength as a Barbarian, so there is no reason to believe they would have different strength scores when the barbarian isn't raging.
A Totemist focusing on multiple attacks would suffer more against enemies who have DR. Conversely they would have a greater chance to get critical hits by virtue of rolling more frequently.


And that same barbarian also makes one of the better archers in game with essentially the same build and a magic weapon (hank's energy bow)
If you can convince a DM to let you use a weapon from a web article that costs the majority of a lvl 8th character's WBL, kudos to you. The other big difference between spending an enormous sum of money and manticore belt is that if the totemist gets bored of archery he can change his combat style the next day.


I still say a totemist more comparable to a Barbarian ( good at 1 thing at any given time, capable of a few other things on the side) than to a bard (always has something worthwhile to contribute)

It's just too easy to be stuck with the wrong melds or having no essentia to power what you need at the moment
Whereas I compare them more to a Ranger, though Barbarian isn't bad either.
Picking poor melds for a situation can be bad, but how can you be short of essentia for a meld? You can shift any or all essentia as a swift action.

[Zaq]

Ooh! I love the two incarnum classes. Let's have some fun.

Please note that I've got the attention span of a goldfish today, so I apologize in advance if I'm even more disjoint in my writing than usual.

Incarnate: The Incarnate is remarkably flexible out of combat, and they're remarkably good at sticking around to the end of combat. What they aren't so good at is making combat end faster. I distinctly recall being frustrated with that the last time I played a pure-class Incarnate (and that was a Law-based one, so one of the ones that's supposed to be decent at melee).

They have two good offensive options at super-low levels (Lightning Gauntlets and Dissolving Spittle)—touch attacks are awesome, and doing 2d6 at-will (or 3d6 if you take Expanded Soulmeld Capacity as your first level feat, which is honestly not at all a bad choice) is nothing to be ashamed of at level 1. These scale semi-decently up to around level 4-7 or so, but then they kind of stop mattering, which is honestly a pretty big letdown. Once those options stop mattering, there isn't a hell of a lot left if you want to be an actual damage dealer—the poor BAB gets more obnoxious every level, and the damage-boosting melds available to a pure-class Incarnate aren't really great at scaling. You can devote three or four melds to it and sorta-kinda be okay (you're never going to be a Barbarian or even a Rogue), but the cost to your out-of-combat utility is nontrivial, and you still never feel really great at whacking away at monster HP. (My favorite way for an Incarnate to be useful in combat is to poach the Mauling Gauntlets with Shape Soulmeld and then to be really obnoxious with a harpoon, but you're definitely more controller than striker at that point.) Now, not every class has to be great at dealing damage, but it's nonetheless a pain point.

Defensively, the Incarnate is a beast at low/mid levels. They're nearly on par with a Crusader as far as "surviving combat" goes. They've got miss chances. They've got retributive damage. They've got nontrivial amounts of DR. They've got energy resistances. They've got a surprising amount of immunities (the Incarnate gets remarkably early access to a lot of forms of immunity, which is neat). They can even have SR, though I forget how hard you have to work to make the SR be level-appropriate for long. Now, they can't do all of these things at once, but they can definitely do a few at once, and that goes a long way towards making yourself hard to kill. (They don't "tank" very well simply because they really can't be dangerous enough to draw any aggro, but they're still very likely to be upright at the end of a fight.) Considering that I've marked down classes like the Rogue and the Monk for their defensive issues, this isn't to be ignored.

And of course, the Incarnate really shines out of combat. I love their unique take on the skillmonkey role—yeah, their actual skill chassis sucks, but I've never actually had a problem with their ability to perform lots and lots of skills. Their total skill bonuses might be slightly lower than those of a dedicated "traditional" skillmonkey (Bard, Rogue, Factotum, etc.), but honestly, they're still going to be high enough to get the job done, and they can swap out every day. This isn't theorycrafting—I've played a few Incarnates (both single-classed and multiclassed), and the flexibility truly does come up. (I will also note that Rapid Meldshaping is a really nice class feature, even if the inability to use a bind is a downside.) Beyond just skills, though, they get some neat general-purpose utility options—just as an example, having Cerulean Sandals on tap came up way more often than I ever expected them to the last time I played an Incarnate, and things like the Airstep Sandals aren't to be discounted either, especially when you consider how early they come online.

I've never played an Evil Incarnate, so I'm not sure how well the necrocarnum melds hold up. I understand that the zombie you can get from the Necrocarnum Circlet can go a pretty long way, given that it's a smart undead servant that costs no permanent resources (and the Crown bind is a very early bind, which is nice).

Incarnates in general don't scale quite as nicely as I'd like at high levels. High-tier binds are nice and all, but I don't think they're quite on par with high-level spells or high-level maneuvers. Still, they do get new abilities at high levels, which is more than can be said for many noncasters.

Overall, having actually played them, I'm torn between T3 and T4. They're really shockingly versatile out of combat (much more so even than a Binder, I'd say, especially since Rapid Meldshaping is a thing), but they definitely fall flat once initiative is rolled. Let's go ahead and say T3.5.

Soulborn: We all love to hate the Soulborn. Its sins are no secret—godawful access to incarnum, mostly weaksauce class features that aren't meldshaping . . . honestly, that's enough.

The fact that Shape Soulmeld exists is kind of an issue for Soulborns, since it means that there really isn't much incentive to use them even for their few unique melds.

Let's just look at the features. Smite is slightly better than a Paladin's Smite Evil (since it can always affect two alignments rather than one), but like the Paladin, the number of uses per day is insulting. (Sapphire Smite is an obvious band-aid, but since you have so little in the way of essentia, that isn't always a great idea.) Incarnum Defense is mostly a flavor ribbon—it's entirely passive, and the things it defends against aren't usually very common. (I imagine many of us are familiar with the idea of the tibbet CE Soulborn who avoids taking the penalty to STR for entering cat form, but that's an edge case at best.) Bonus feats are rarely totally useless, but they're not tier-changing. Everything else is forgettable.

Overall, the idea behind the Soulborn is clear, but they're so limited with their melds (it's ECL 12 before they even get three at once?!) that they really don't get to take advantage of, well, anything. I don't think we can go any higher than T5, and a low T5 at that. Not sure whether I'd rather play an unmodified Soulborn or an unmodified Monk. And that's terrible.

Totemist: I feel like what you see is kind of what you get with the Totemist. They do their job, and they do it pretty well. I don't have too many world-shaking insights about them. They do natural weapons very nicely, and they work really well with pretty much any source of bonus damage just because they can make so many attacks. Having played bother, they're way less flexible than an Incarnate out of combat, but they're also definitely above the Fighter. I'd say they're about at Ranger level.

Since they can get good offense from their melds (unlike the Incarnate, if we're being brutally honest), they're kind of expected to; combine that with the fact that they get a bit less meldshaping mojo than the Incarnate (if nothing else, they're down a bind with the expectation that something's stuck in the Totem slot), and it becomes a bit hard for them to spare too many melds on utility functions. They get fewer defensive/immunity melds than the Incarnate does, but again, they get the offense to make up for it.

I'm comfortable sticking the Totemist in the same slot as the Incarnate, and I'm too tired to want to go into more detail, so we'll say T3.5, at least for now.