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The Giant
2006-07-15, 03:55 AM
The comic is up.

Thray
2006-07-15, 03:56 AM
Wow, nice responses. "Posthumously." Heh.

Krytha
2006-07-15, 03:59 AM
ahahahahahaaa! that was great!

zeorge
2006-07-15, 04:00 AM
Great comic Giant
(Woot first page!!!)

Lord Herman
2006-07-15, 04:00 AM
Awesome. I can't wait to see who Belkar is going to kill.

edit: or get killed, at least

RedMage
2006-07-15, 04:00 AM
Loved it as usual

toysailor
2006-07-15, 04:03 AM
XD - 1st 1st page ever and I'm akin to a happy little boy at Christmas.

Roy didn't mention Azure City in his question =(

Anyway, I thought if Xykon didn't head within 1000 ft of his next targeted gate, Roy would be further tricked by his own cleverness wouldn't it?

thespyder
2006-07-15, 04:04 AM
YAY!!! new comic!!

Daraniya
2006-07-15, 04:05 AM
Geez, talk about being specific... Roy just screwed the pooch... That is going to bite him in the arse later...

kasib
2006-07-15, 04:07 AM
Poor, poor foolish Roy.

Liliedhe
2006-07-15, 04:08 AM
*rofl*

That was great. While the questions weren't that surprising (except Roy's - in a way *lol* ) the answers certainly leave a lot of food for thought. And I absolutely love Roy outwitting himself - that is what you get for trying to be smarter than the author of the story... This is going to be fun... *eg*

And I'm very curious if Belkar's answer won't become a self fullfilling prophecy... One of the kind that causes dreadful things to happen that would never have happened if they hadn't been foretold...

molonel
2006-07-15, 04:09 AM
Wait ...

Plots points! Promises of character death! A bard the only truly happy member of the party? Sarcasm? Belkar killing one of the beings he hates most?

And the tightly written 1st Edition Wish contract twisted into a plot point?

Is that STORY I smell?

Sorcha_Ravenlock
2006-07-15, 04:10 AM
"Will this story have a happy ending?" Elan always makes me smile ;)

enigma
2006-07-15, 04:11 AM
That was awesome. Some people overthink way too much.
Who's going to translate Haley first? I'm horrible at those word puzzles.

Enigma
*And just as I was about to go to sleep I decide to see if the Giant was nice to us this weekend. And he was.*

molonel
2006-07-15, 04:13 AM
For anyone who is curious, Google the term "ginko-bilboa" to see what sort of natural remedy the Oracle is suggesting for V's familiar.

I actually snickered.

Krytha
2006-07-15, 04:14 AM
Alas, Roy, you've finally outdone yourself. (Darn that MBA...)

Wiggle
2006-07-15, 04:18 AM
Well to be honest it's Durkon I feel sorry for.

I hope he makes some nice dwarf friends on the way (hopefully with the return of a certain ex-girlfriend!)

Maestoso
2006-07-15, 04:22 AM
Hi, first post for me. I think it translates as

"What can I do to restore my speech?"

but it requires h and r to be represented by the same letter which doesn't quite work, but hey.

Lokey
2006-07-15, 04:23 AM
Typo in Haley's question? Stymied on the sixth word: What can I do to _______ my speech?

orcmonk89
2006-07-15, 04:26 AM
That was funny. Nice one Giant.

Post-humourously.

tarlen
2006-07-15, 04:27 AM
To finish Lokeys work:

"Restore" fits for everything but the Rs. If you assume F can be either H or R, then it works. Since the Giant has done that numerous times in the past, it works.

Ie: What can I do to restore my speech?

Solmage
2006-07-15, 04:27 AM
Ok.. this one made me chuckle! thanks! :) And Roy.. Nooooooo! And poor poor Durkon...


Edit: Oh and I suppose I should edit to add the traditional: "Woot! second page!"

DarkCorax
2006-07-15, 04:35 AM
Lol! great comic, and unexpected....

Love Roy managing to outwit Himself...

And Haley and V's Answers...

rosebud
2006-07-15, 04:37 AM
Cute. Roy knows there are three gates. As such, he would have crafted a question that included all three gates. Clearly, despite what the story would have you believe, it requires that they be headed towards the "wrong" gate. :) Roy isn't as stupid as the Oracle would have you believe. Of course, The Story might mandate misery for this supposed error, but it's not like Roy has a choice in the matter. ;)

I love that Belkar's simplicity made it obfuscate the answer. Preface "Which of the following" and remove "any of the following" and you get a list, instead.

I love Elan's question.

Poor, poor Durkon. I hope at least he finds out the why to provide him some solace.

V. Hee hee hee. That should be ... amusing.

I also love the non-trance moments of the Oracle when requesting a different question.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-07-15, 04:45 AM
*facepalm*

That is such a...a Roy thing to do. *Sigh* oh well, it'll all turn out for the best. At least for Elan.

Woot page 2.

Cruiser1
2006-07-15, 04:52 AM
Wow, lots of foreshadowing here! So what might be the four words V will say, and to who, and for what wrong reason?

The being may be the Snarl. V could sacrifice zerself to seal the rift behind a Gate that got opened, and will say something challenging to get the Snarl blast zer with the magic power of the Universe. Belkar could push V in to the rift, so V can save the world, doing a good act but getting to cause the death of V in the process. Or something like that!

PhoeKun
2006-07-15, 04:53 AM
I could comment about the plot. I really could. I could comment on the jokes. But people do that all the time.

No, I'm going to say something nobody else would bother to point out. They never do. See that head of Tiamat's? The one poking up through the top of the strip? That... that is the coolest stick-figure visual effect to date.

Well, that and the way the panels involving Xykon's legions are actually connected to show one full picture of the zombie dragon.

Ragnarokpc
2006-07-15, 05:03 AM
Nice comic, thanks for the super-size!

Miraqariftsky
2006-07-15, 05:05 AM
Salutations all!

Congratulations to the Giant for yet another verse in this, his grand tale! It's glad I am that Elan stoo up to Roy at least this once...

efi
2006-07-15, 05:10 AM
Oh, was it yet another demonstration for "figters are dumb"?

Seems like Roy's MBA did'nt help him much this time.


I fear Elan could see a "Happy End" in every little flower surviving the apocalyptic final battle... :-/


Anyway, great strip!

ekedolphin
2006-07-15, 05:10 AM
My thoughts on the questions, the answers, and the ramifications:

Durkon

I can't help but think that this answer, more than any of the answers given to any of the other Order members, has the greatest potential to really screw up the person who asked the question. Durkon will never return to his dwarven homelands as long as he's still alive. Of course, anyone who read Origins already knew that, but now Durkon finally knows that. I think he'll be devastated by this.

Incidentally, I wonder why he didn't ask that question of the Oracle the first time he saw him. (For those who haven't read Origins, we didn't actually see the visit to the Oracle; it happened shortly before "the day before yesterday").

Vaarsuvius

I have absolutely no idea what the four right words to the right person at the wrong time are-- it'll probably end up being another one of those "when the goat turns, red strikes true" things. We won't know until it happens.

Haley

Another question that's natural for her to ask, and another cryptic answer. As if the poor girl hasn't suffered enough.

Elan

That's such a sweet question to ask, and so like Elan to be the one to ask it. But I can't help but feel that the Oracle's answer implies that while the story ends well for Elan, it won't end well for one of his teammates.

Belkar

Hee! That's so like Belkar! Unfortunately he outsmarted himself with that question. I'd say the likelihood of him killing off each character, in order from most likely to least likely, would be The Oracle, Miko's horse, Miko, Vaarsuvius and Roy. (No way he kills off Roy, right?)

Roy

Oops, Roy screwed up there, didn't he? Wonder what they'll find at Girard's Gate in the desert. And I wonder if a certain somebody will be trying to stop them.

Blackwing

He's gonna try and get himself some!

Peptuck
2006-07-15, 05:13 AM
Alas, poor Roy. Too smart for your own good.

And too bad Belkar lacks the appropriate wisdom to know who he gets to kill :P

Elurindel
2006-07-15, 05:25 AM
Wow, Roy was determined not to get screwed over by the Oracle, to the point where has dug his own grave! Loved it, Giant, especially the whole Tiamat thing.
Now to find out what Haley said.

Felinoid
2006-07-15, 05:35 AM
Heheh. Loving the Oracle more and more. "Bupbupbup!" :D Too bad the story will probably shift away. Ah well; NPCs come and go.

I have to admit I chuckled at "posthumously". And here I thought I liked Durkon...

Woo! Belkar gets to kill somebody! ;D That'll be well worth waiting for...unless it won't be during the lifetime of the strip. :-X

Roy is a boob! ;)

Ikkitosen
2006-07-15, 05:42 AM
Great comic, but this time the main thing I enjoyed about it was the artwork - very nice!

Marller
2006-07-15, 05:49 AM
Cute. Roy knows there are three gates. As such, he would have crafted a question that included all three gates. Clearly, despite what the story would have you believe, it requires that they be headed towards the "wrong" gate. :) Roy isn't as stupid as the Oracle would have you believe. Of course, The Story might mandate misery for this supposed error, but it's not like Roy has a choice in the matter. ;)
I think it makes sense for Roy to not include Azure city's gate. Even with all his minions in Durokans dungeon Zykon shouldn't be able to take Azure city and experiment on the gate at his leisure. The other two gates are both secluded.

Too bad nobody asked how many minions Zykon has. ;)

Max_Sinister
2006-07-15, 06:00 AM
Wow, really great comic. I can't expect to see how things will turn out... although I have some definite guesses...

TreesOfDeath
2006-07-15, 06:39 AM
I think the answear to the V question means that to get ultimate arcane power, V would have to swear his soul to a demon. Doesn't mean it will ever happen

Ronald_saveloy
2006-07-15, 06:46 AM
Ok, but I'm just saying, wouldn't it be easier to just ask: 'Which gate is Xykon heading toward next?'

That's so roleplaying. I don't know, how often my players outsmarted themselves with such over-elaborated ideas, so I had to give them a broad hit?

After some strips with not so smashing (but still funny) gags, this one is a really bit hit worth waiting for.

houseofcommons
2006-07-15, 06:47 AM
.

Blackwing

He's gonna try and get himself some!

Ginko is for memory, not sexual prowess. I think "Caw caw caw caw caw caw caw?" translates to: "How do I get my master to remember about me?"

molonel
2006-07-15, 06:50 AM
Ginko is for memory, not sexual prowess. I think "Caw caw caw caw caw caw caw?" translates to: "How do I get my master to remember about me?"

Under the circumstances, I think the dual properties of the herb provide a humorous backdrop that your mundane interpretation lacks.

Ronald_saveloy
2006-07-15, 06:52 AM
Have you had a close look at the three pictures showing Xykons army on the march? If you look closely on the neck and the tail of the undead dragon, you will see, that each picture is a cutout of a larger picure and, in fact, each of the three pictures is on the right place yet.

So, Mr. Giant, will we see this whole picture one day? ???

PrometheusRex
2006-07-15, 06:58 AM
Then again...


If we refer back to comic #318, Roy's plan is in fact to ask the Oracle which dungeon Xykon is heading toward... and then return to Azure City so Shojo can Teleport them where they need to go. So, Roy's overly specific question may not hurt him much in the long term.

Delgarde
2006-07-15, 07:11 AM
Poor Roy... he's thought things through too much, and outsmarted himself. Just like my gaming group always does...

Delgarde
2006-07-15, 07:12 AM
Have you had a close look at the three pictures showing Xykons army on the march? If you look closely on the neck and the tail of the undead dragon, you will see, that each picture is a cutout of a larger picure and, in fact, each of the three pictures is on the right place yet.

Yeah, that *is* pretty neat.

Delgarde
2006-07-15, 07:15 AM
If we refer back to comic #318, Roy's plan is in fact to ask the Oracle which dungeon Xykon is heading toward... and then return to Azure City so Shojo can Teleport them where they need to go. So, Roy's overly specific question may not hurt him much in the long term.

Good point. Although his reaction should be good, when he finds Xykon's army besieging the city or something....

Gobbo_in_the_Boots
2006-07-15, 07:24 AM
Hi Giant - great work you did there. Love the artwork with the dragon! :)

And poor Roy - he's just too clever for his own good...

warmachine
2006-07-15, 07:30 AM
Tut, tut, tut. Foolish thinking by Roy. A strategist should always keep in mind that the enemy may do something that appears non-sensible. An enemy ought to dismiss a plan that's unworkable but he may have a trick up his sleeve. He may have a traitor in Azure City. He may have an unknown weapon of mass destruction. As it happens, he has an army. Not all of an enemy's capabilities can be known, so contingency plans must exist to limit the catastrophe of a devasting move.

In this case, Roy should have considered that Xykon going for Azure City is ludicrous but not impossible and devastating if he does. He just needed to put it on the list of gates. Foolish, foolish.

LtPowers
2006-07-15, 07:40 AM
OK, I must admit it: I don't like this strip. I never find it amusing when the protagonists' hopes and dreams are crushed or otherwise obstacled. Durkon in particular, got the shaft here. That doesn't make me laugh, it makes me ill. It makes me fear for the end of the strip. It makes me reluctant to keep reading.

Yuck.


Powers &8^]

SPoD
2006-07-15, 07:50 AM
OK, I must admit it: I don't like this strip. I never find it amusing when the protagonists' hopes and dreams are crushed or otherwise obstacled. Durkon in particular, got the shaft here. That doesn't make me laugh, it makes me ill. It makes me fear for the end of the strip. It makes me reluctant to keep reading.

Yuck.

You're not thinking outside the box here. This is a world with functioning resurrection. The Oracle did NOT say that Durkon would never get back to his homeland...he said he would get back to his homeland after he died. So if OOTS fights the Linear Guild (for example), and Durkon is killed and then raised by Shojo's clerics, Durkon could theoretically go home at any point and still fulfill the Oracle's literal meaning.

Personally, I think it's safe to assume that ALL of these prophecies have a double meaning. I just don't see Rich spelling out things that easily for us.

aaronbourque
2006-07-15, 08:04 AM
OK, I must admit it: I don't like this strip. I never find it amusing when the protagonists' hopes and dreams are crushed or otherwise obstacled. Durkon in particular, got the shaft here. That doesn't make me laugh, it makes me ill. It makes me fear for the end of the strip. It makes me reluctant to keep reading.

Yuck.

Powers &8^]

While the rest of us are laughing.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; although whether it's to keep from losing our sanity is another question entirely . . .

Ink
2006-07-15, 08:05 AM
I really liked this one. The past few strips have been kinda lukewarm to me but this one is very good. The tension is really building up.

It's amusing that the most non-specific question, Elan's, got the most satisfactory answer. The Oracle was incredibly nice to try and give Roy a chance like that. Roy is truly not as smart as he likes to think.

Minivet
2006-07-15, 08:11 AM
Shoot. I was going to point out that since "posthumous" means "after burial," you could take the prediction to imply that Durkon would die, be put in the ground, be dug up, and then return to his homeland.

Unfortunately, when I double-checked, it seems that's a false etymology. Stupid false etymologies.

SMEE
2006-07-15, 08:21 AM
As usual the party fighter screws it all... :(

So sad. :(

And here I fought Belkar would question for V's gender...

Funny strip nonetheless. :D

Chamrox
2006-07-15, 08:29 AM
Nice strip.

Ok everyone, bookmark this comic for future reference!

wodan46
2006-07-15, 08:33 AM
so Roy foolishly assumed that Azure City was too strongly defended to be threatened by a certain Lich Lord.

Well, he still might luck out and return to Azure city before the assault happens.

Awesome questions, I will look forward to interpreting what they mean and seeing when they manifest in the storyline. This really sets the stage for interesting events, you've outdone yourself as usual giant.

wait a second, is it just me, or did Elan ask a more significant question than any of the others, not so much for immediate tactical use but of overall value.

silverdreamdancer
2006-07-15, 08:47 AM
Actually Roy's answer tells us something rather interesting. The Lich will not be destroyed in his attack on the Azure city.

Ronald_saveloy
2006-07-15, 08:51 AM
Don't forget, that Roy might expected, that Xykon has only Redcloak, the Monster in the dark an maybe a handful of minions left after the OotS destroyed the castle. Roy surely doesn't know, that Xykon has mustered an army of some thousand hobgoblins and zombies so far.
So, without the hobgoblin army, Xykon would stand no chance against the Saphier Guard and the walls of Azure City. But with that army ... seem the odds are even!

Elcaz
2006-07-15, 09:17 AM
That was a great comic. As if it wasn't funny enough, we even got a punchline, though I think it's spelled "Gingko Biloba".

Not that I've ever used it to know this. If I had, I would remember. :)

sakusha
2006-07-15, 09:17 AM
If we refer back to comic #318, Roy's plan is in fact to ask the Oracle which dungeon Xykon is heading toward... and then return to Azure City so Shojo can Teleport them where they need to go. So, Roy's overly specific question may not hurt him much in the long term.

But if Xykon's army is still "heading out" as we see in the cut-aways from the Oracle, then it's entirely possible that the OotS will get back to Azure City and leave again blissfully unaware that it will be attacked shortly after they leave.

For all of the OotSers ... :'( Durkon has to die, V's going to do something "for all the wrong reasons" (totally out of character IMO), Haley's still got her gib-speak, Belkar's going to cause a character death (well I guess that's happy for him), Roy outsmarted himself, and not neccessarily everyone in the OotS gets a happy ending ... Considering that comment about Belkar the Oracle made in #229, the least painful way may just be him dying and everyone else gets to be happy.


Actually Roy's answer tells us something rather interesting. The Lich will not be destroyed in his attack on the Azure city.

Storywise, I think Elan would say something along the lines of, "Well, of course he couldn't! That wouldn't be dramatically-accurate!" Translation: duh! ;)

cloudncali
2006-07-15, 09:32 AM
...
...
I’m sorry but this comic just made me depressed.
OOTS usually makes me either
1 happy
2 mad
Or 3 have a lot of questions
But this comic made me depress for 2 reasons
1 no one, In the OOTS, got a good answer. So I just waited 4 weeks about to see what questions they ask and this… this is it … I’m going emo :'(

edit: just so people no im not going emo it was a joke ;D

warmachine
2006-07-15, 09:48 AM
Don't forget, that Roy might expected, that Xykon has only Redcloak, the Monster in the dark an maybe a handful of minions left after the OotS destroyed the castle. Roy surely doesn't know, that Xykon has mustered an army of some thousand hobgoblins and zombies so far.
So, without the hobgoblin army, Xykon would stand no chance against the Saphier Guard and the walls of Azure City.
That is a reasonable assumption to make in a rush but a strategist must anticipate the unexpected. Roy should have considered that there is always a remote possibility that Xykon has something he doesn't know about, making an attack on Azure City viable. Inclusion of the city in the list would have been a very cheap 'just-in-case' detection system.

TroyXavier
2006-07-15, 10:07 AM
Fun comic...good to know Elan's getting a happy ending. Also I like the appearance of the raven.

Aerysil1
2006-07-15, 10:15 AM
Aw, Tiamat's not directly involved in the plot? *snif*

Alfryd
2006-07-15, 10:17 AM
The comic is up.
Very nice. Very nice indeed.

Belkar, apparently , is getting *worse*. And I didn't think that was physically possible. I can't believe Roy and V are approximately as high on his list of 'people to kill in a prolongued and agonizing fashion' as Miko.

(No way he kills off Roy, right?)
I wouldn't dismiss that possibility at all.

Roy, you are an utter, total, complete and final imbecile.

Roy isn't as stupid as the Oracle would have you believe...
No, he is stupider.

I think it makes sense for Roy to not include Azure city's gate. Even with all his minions in Durokans dungeon Zykon shouldn't be able to take Azure city and experiment on the gate at his leisure. The other two gates are both secluded.
There was no addiitonal risk whatsoever in adding 'Azure City' to the list of gate locations under the query's current wording. I am truly stupified. IT'S ONLY THE FATE OF THE KNOWN UNIVERSE!

Roy's plan is in fact to ask the Oracle which dungeon Xykon is heading toward... and then return to Azure City so Shojo can Teleport them where they need to go. So, Roy's overly specific question may not hurt him much in the long term.

But if Xykon's army is still "heading out" as we see in the cut-aways from the Oracle, then it's entirely possible that the OotS will get back to Azure City and leave again blissfully unaware that it will be attacked shortly after they leave.
Redcloak said it would take several weeks to reach Azure city, Roy's trip only took a few days. They'll miss the boat.

Actually Roy's answer tells us something rather interesting. The Lich will not be destroyed in his attack on the Azure city.
Daw. Lich. More importantly, primary antagonist.


I never find it amusing when the protagonists' hopes and dreams are crushed or otherwise obstacled.
Now you know how us Mikophiles feel.

This is a world with functioning resurrection.
And also a functioning plot dynamic that allows dramatic emphasis to trump rule mechanics, and a final monster-boss nemesis capable of rending your very soul apart.


For anyone who is curious, Google the term "ginko-bilboa" to see what sort of natural remedy the Oracle is suggesting for V's familiar.
All the more peculiar since avians have no external genitalia.

Taren
2006-07-15, 10:22 AM
Wow. This comic was quite foreshadowy, as can be expected from a visit to any oracle under the hands of a capable GM.

To borrow something from Willis:

DAMN YOU GIANT!

Anyways, yeah. Although it's a bit cliche'd to do now, let's review all we've learned, ok kids?

From the previous few strips, we've learned that:

A) Belkar is going to die sometime after his next birthday.

B)Either or any combination of the groups of Roy, V, Miko, Miko's horse, and the Oracle are going to die by Belkar's hand, although it may be all 5 as well.

C) Elan is the only one promised a happy ending. (I don't say GUARENTEED because it's entirely possible that the oracle could be wrong about anything... the gods could interfere, something could go wrong, it's entirely possible, albeit cheap, that something could happen to change the Oracle's predictions so as to make them incorrect.)

D) Durkon will die before he returns to the Dwarven lands.

E) V may obtain ultimate arcane power, but only for the "wrong reasons". This is looming and omnious.

I didn't mention Haley's prediction because we don't learn anything new from it. We all know that eventually Haley is going to get her speech back. It's only a matter of when in that capacity. That being said, anyone who was guessing she'd ask any other question needs to be beaten. Or at least have a chance to beat me. At Soul Caliber. Either way.

Monzz
2006-07-15, 10:30 AM
When I first read the comic I felt sad, because of all the bad things the Oracle had predicted directly and indirectly. But hey, it's just a comic and I shouldn't get so attached to the characters. :-/

Nonetheless, the Oracle made me smile, I'm finally starting to warm up to him. And poor Roy, he outsmarted himself.

Fantastic comic, Giant. Thank you. The artwork was really awesome. ;D

Elcaz
2006-07-15, 10:40 AM
Durkon returning home post humously doesn't mean he's going to die on the course of the comic, it just means he won't return home alive and the day he dies, his body/ashes could be sent home. That, or he does die.

I'm happy for Elan's answer and I'm guessing Belkar will end up finishing Miko since it seems Azure city is once again in their near future (even if they make a long detour to one of the gates). That, or her horse.

fwiffo
2006-07-15, 10:48 AM
As several people mentioned, there is no downside for Roy including all three locations when he asked a question phrased like this. So, why didn't he? He certainly spent a lot of time phrasing it, just to have such an obvious flaw.

Now, I can see if Roy decided to ask "yes or no" question to get clear answer - something along the lines of "Will Xykon will be at Girards gate *before* Kraagor's gate?". If he thought that way, he could outsmart himself convincingly. But, as it is, I think there is more to this than a plot railroad. At least I hope there is.

Frem
2006-07-15, 10:48 AM
I liked it.

Idle speculation:
Do you suppose Belker's death could be related to his killing of one of the people on that list, activating his curse? Also, I'm gonna guess that the horse gets it. Poor horsey.

WeaponMasterLDO
2006-07-15, 11:17 AM
So much to discuss... Well, lets start posting! Great comic giant!

Sengoku
2006-07-15, 11:24 AM
About Elan's question and answer...

I think the Oracle implies Elan and Haley will end together, and while it would be a nice situation for Elan, I think Haley's could be considered *a bit* worse, given the fool Elan is. So I'd conclude the "it will be an happy ending for you" part of the answer is about Elan and Haley instead of Elan and the entire party

Player_of_Games
2006-07-15, 11:35 AM
I do sorry for Roy, but one can see where he's coming from after what he found the Oracle's first response to his question of where Xylon was.

Kesnit
2006-07-15, 11:37 AM
Ok, but I'm just saying, wouldn't it be easier to just ask: 'Which gate is Xykon heading toward next?'

That's so roleplaying. I don't know, how often my players outsmarted themselves with such over-elaborated ideas, so I had to give them a broad hit?

After some strips with not so smashing (but still funny) gags, this one is a really bit hit worth waiting for.


Yes, but if Roy had asked that, it leaves The Oracle open to a misleading answer. What if, in order to get to the Azure City gate, Xykon has to go "towards" another. (In other words, the other gate is on the way, or in the same general direction.)

UtherSRG
2006-07-15, 11:53 AM
You're not thinking outside the box here. This is a world with functioning resurrection. The Oracle did NOT say that Durkon would never get back to his homeland...he said he would get back to his homeland after he died. So if OOTS fights the Linear Guild (for example), and Durkon is killed and then raised by Shojo's clerics, Durkon could theoretically go home at any point and still fulfill the Oracle's literal meaning.

Personally, I think it's safe to assume that ALL of these prophecies have a double meaning. I just don't see Rich spelling out things that easily for us.

Or perhaps more likely, that Durkon dies on his journey back to his homeland, and that the folks he is travelling with complete the journey with his dead body, bring him in the gates, and he gets resurrected there.

ElfLad
2006-07-15, 11:59 AM
Why not, "Which of the gates containing the Snarl is Xykon going to attack next?" Or "In which order will Xykon attack the remaining gates?"

UtherSRG
2006-07-15, 11:59 AM
As several people mentioned, there is no downside for Roy including all three locations when he asked a question phrased like this. So, why didn't he? He certainly spent a lot of time phrasing it, just to have such an obvious flaw.

Now, I can see if Roy decided to ask "yes or no" question to get clear answer - something along the lines of "Will Xykon will be at Girards gate *before* Kraagor's gate?". If he thought that way, he could outsmart himself convincingly. But, as it is, I think there is more to this than a plot railroad. At least I hope there is.

"In what order and timeframe will Xykon try to attack the gates?"

DireRedShark
2006-07-15, 12:04 PM
An excellent comic, in terms of art and foreshadowing. The prophesies are real vague - as prophecies always are. Looks like somebody's going down by the end, and Belkar's actually gonna kill someone annoying (because honestly, Roy and V really need to get the sticks out of their ends). Can't wait to see how Haley and V's resolve - it's exactly the sort of moment 140 strips from now you look back and think "oh yeah!"

And as to not thinking of Azure City, look back at comic #290 - Roy was hired to check out the other two gates by Shojo, Azure City was nowhere in the agreement - lest we forget, Azure City is protected by an entire paladin order not to mention the entire city guard. Logically, it seems so well defended that for Xykon to attack it never crossed either of their minds - but no one even considered his possession of 38000+ hobgoblins. Oh noes.

hyikim
2006-07-15, 12:08 PM
i was hopeing one of the answers would be "when the goat turns, red strikes true"

Platinum_Mongoose
2006-07-15, 12:13 PM
After reading this comic I realized that this is a stick figure-based webcomic with a plot and characters that I care about more than most of the tv shows that I watch. Lost, for instance. Even the earlier Lost, when it was still good.

So keep doing that comic thing that you do, Giant. 'Cause it kinda kicks ass.

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-07-15, 12:36 PM
Hahaha. That owned.

I liked the green bubbles for prophecying and the white bubbles for still having normal conversations.

Also, until now I wasn't sure if Xykon was a lich wizard or sorceror. Now we know.

They all remember the answers, that's a given, but will Roy remember the exact wording of his question to the oracle?

Oh, and I <3 foreshadowing. Belkar's question is interesting: "Do I get to cause the death of" rather than "do I kill". Maybe he'll step away from V in battle again, or set off a landslide. Or maybe the "Do I get to" is the important clause here: maybe he'll get the opportunity, but won't use it. Maybe he'll have, dare I say it, character development?!

SMEE
2006-07-15, 12:40 PM
Wait!

There's something really out of place here... ???

According to RedCloak on the 300th (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=300) strip, it would be really time consuming to get any close to the other gates (going accross ocean or going through 8 human nations).

So, how come they'll be less than 1000ft closer to Girard's gate rather than the Azure City one?

Did RedCloak failed badly at his decipher check when trying to decode the other gates locations? ???
Edit:

Forget about it. Stupid Roy just asked for those two gates... :-[

xyzchyx
2006-07-15, 12:51 PM
You know, the oracle *COULD* have been more helpful by simply pointing out to Roy that his assertion before his question was erroneous in that there were actually _MORE_ than two gates that Xykon could be going to.

Of course, that wouldn't be as funny.

silvadel
2006-07-15, 01:14 PM
First off I would like to say that Belkar's question was MUCH better than if he had said which ones will I kill...

So long as it is not revealed by the oracle -- he has the CHOICE of which one he will kill.... It also avoids certain problems....

If the oracle were to say "Belkar -- you will be the cause of the death of Varsuvius" then somehow I do NOT Think V would take it lying down.

Plus he now has an open ended oracular 100% true prophecy... He CANT DIE until he kills one of them.
If he wants to live to be eleventy nine he might want to put off his sweet revenge...

------

I am actually quite amazed the party willingly paid Tiamat for this... I mean that is the queen of all evil dragons he is communing with there... Color coded for your convenience... I know miko would have only one word to say once the oracle started that trance.... "DIE!"

----

Also surprised that Roy allowed everyone to ask such miscelleneous questions... I would have thought roy would have a list of IMPORTANT ON-TARGET questions to ask... including backup questions for cryptic answers.... Haley might have gotten a better answer thereby.

Thing is even if the kobold wanted to say "Xykon will go to Girard only after he razes Azure city to the ground" they wouldnt have remembered it.

As for durkon I do not see that prediction as all bad -- I see it as saying "Stop looking for your homeland and live in the moment with what fate has given you"(avoiding specifics as they would be spolier/spec)

---

By the way -- that was an impressive oots-style rendering of tiamat... nicely done.

Mean_Eyed_CAt
2006-07-15, 01:15 PM
Ginko is for memory, not sexual prowess. I think "Caw caw caw caw caw caw caw?" translates to: "How do I get my master to remember about me?"

Actually, as previous people have said, it has many uses. Primarily it is used for memory but, by increasing blood flow, it can be used for impotency.

On a side note, the names of Odin's ravens are Hugin [thought] and Munin [memory]. I know it's a loose connection, but it's where I went when I saw Ginkgo Biloba :)

Michael_Sandy
2006-07-15, 01:26 PM
Hunh. Xykon is heading for Azure City, but at some future time has to mess with a different gate?

Gee. What could possibly happen in Azure City that would cause Xykon to go for a different gate?

I don't think that Roy wants to get involved in having to defend Azure City, he doesn't like them much. And besides, they have a paladin who singled handedly defeated the entire Order of the Stick. Just how critical would their contribution be?

Chamrox
2006-07-15, 01:41 PM
Speculation for lovers of the Dwarf:

Maybe they send him back posthumously because, being the only true healer in the party, no one else can ressurect him. Perhaps the folks in his homeland are the only ones powerful enough to do so.

Overelemental
2006-07-15, 01:58 PM
Brilliant questions :)

Roy reminded me so much of players trying to be clever and always making it harder on the DM to give them the right tips.

Blackeagle
2006-07-15, 02:01 PM
But if Xykon's army is still "heading out" as we see in the cut-aways from the Oracle, then it's entirely possible that the OotS will get back to Azure City and leave again blissfully unaware that it will be attacked shortly after they leave.

Redcloak said it would take several weeks to reach Azure city, Roy's trip only took a few days. They'll miss the boat.

Don't forget that the OOTS has an upcoming encounter with the Linear Guild! As the Oracle says to Roy and Elan in #330 "The two of you are running late for a pair of family reunions."

Dealing with Nale et al. will probably delay them long enough for Xyklon to reach the Azure city.

Joe_Kerr
2006-07-15, 02:08 PM
Perhaps the four words from V will be "I love you, Belkar."

JediNite
2006-07-15, 02:10 PM
Speculation RE:
Varsuuvius

"I love you, Belkar."

It could happen.
-Jedi

Magnus_Samma
2006-07-15, 02:37 PM
Am I the only one confused by the suddent inclusion of Tiamat? Up until now all of the pantheons in OOTS have been based on real world religions, and now all of a sudden a traditional D&D deity gets tossed into the mix. Has she appeared once before and I missed it, or is everyone else just kind of saying "hey that's neat" without overanalyzing things? :P

Bilbo27
2006-07-15, 02:39 PM
do I get to cause the death of either of the following---

Priceless

My money goes on Oracle!

CockroachTeaParty
2006-07-15, 02:41 PM
At first, the Oracle kind of annoyed me, but then I realized, if I could see into the future all the time, I would quickly become a nuisance to anyone who spoke to me. Hooray!

Coolest stick representation of Tiamat ever. The art of this strip is better than some of the crap I've seen in WotC books! (cough cough picture of half-giant on page 149 of Complete Psionic...)

Oddly, I found Elan's question to be the most potent. It also makes me sad to think that someday, this story will end...

avalon_redmoon
2006-07-15, 02:47 PM
Tsk! Roy has got to be the stupidest smart person in the whole comic. LMAO! I guess there is such a thing as overthinking it...

BiggusGeekus
2006-07-15, 03:01 PM
Plus he now has an open ended oracular 100% true prophecy... He CANT DIE until he kills one of them.
If he wants to live to be eleventy nine he might want to put off his sweet revenge...

I doubt that would occur to him. He's a sociopath.

------

Also surprised that Roy allowed everyone to ask such miscelleneous questions

Roy has already said he's against manipulating the party.



nicely done.

I agree. Well done.

Parmeisan
2006-07-15, 03:07 PM
Haley's question:

(Yes, there is a mistake...) What can I do to restore my speech?

chionophile
2006-07-15, 03:15 PM
Magnus, Tiamat is a real world deity in Babylonian and Sumerian mythology. Most, if not all, of the DND gods are based on the "real" world.

Shea Landford
2006-07-15, 03:18 PM
good comic. :)

Spiky
2006-07-15, 03:28 PM
First thing I thought of when reading Elan's answer is that Elan is ALWAYS happy. So even if the entire party is wiped out tomorrow, Elan will still have a happy ending.

And I can see ways for Belkar to cause someone's death (esp Roy) well after his own death: "You were friends with Belkar?!?!?" *slash*


I just found OOTS recently. God, this rocks.

Holy_Knight
2006-07-15, 03:56 PM
I really liked this one. Elan telling Roy to "shh" was great, especially considering how much of a role reversal it is for their relationship! Loved Roy outsmarting himself and the appearance of Blackwing, too, not to mention that the Oracle's answers were very intriguing.

Calamity
2006-07-15, 04:11 PM
First thing I thought of when reading Elan's answer is that Elan is ALWAYS happy. So even if the entire party is wiped out tomorrow, Elan will still have a happy ending.

Not always, take for example, when Haley is hurt or when V got angry at him becasue (s)he thought he was making fun of wizards.
EDIT: or when Roy is mad at him, how could i forget that? ::)

As for the questions... typical Belkar, hehe, it invovles killing, and could of been worded better. I like how Elan's question seemed to be the worst one, but got him the best answer (as far as the party members are concerned)

Beelzebub1111
2006-07-15, 04:20 PM
Durkon will die but we don't know when or how or why.

Vaarsuvius will gain ultimate arcane power by accident

Haley will take every oprotunity she sees

Good things will happen to Elan at the end but the others are still uncertain.

Belkar will kill somebody we know, but it was never said if he was the direct cause of their death.

And roy planned stuff out only to fail.

EDIT: And the raven...I have no Idea. I forgot about him...alot of people seem to.

Edit 2.0: I think he ment Ginko Biloba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginkgo_Biloba) Which is some type of medicinal herb for memory enhancement, Help with Virdigo, and is also believed to be an aphrodisiac

Kriel
2006-07-15, 04:42 PM
And thus I say: we have seen the future and from the looks of it, it will mostly suck.

kerberos
2006-07-15, 04:46 PM
Very nice. Very nice indeed.

Belkar, apparently , is getting *worse*.
I beg (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=124) to differ (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=125).

Scion_of_the_Light
2006-07-15, 04:47 PM
I found V's question somewhat...lacking. It seemed to me pathetically childish. I mean, 'complete and total ultimate arcane power'? It seems while characters like Haley have been deepened, V has become mired in platitudes. What a very...bland...motivation. V used to be my favorite character, but I am starting to like Elan and Haley much more now. Of course, Miko remains my favorite.

kerberos
2006-07-15, 04:49 PM
Perhaps the four words from V will be "I love you, Belkar."

Or: "Belkar, my beloved husband". Hmm... Actually I think either of those two statements, are more likely to cause the universe to colapse into a singularity, than to give V ultimate arcane power.

Krytha
2006-07-15, 05:17 PM
Am I the only one confused by the suddent inclusion of Tiamat? Up until now all of the pantheons in OOTS have been based on real world religions, and now all of a sudden a traditional D&D deity gets tossed into the mix. Has she appeared once before and I missed it, or is everyone else just kind of saying "hey that's neat" without overanalyzing things? :P

Tiamat had a cameo in the crayon Snarl thread. er.. arc.

Pvednes
2006-07-15, 06:45 PM
Note that Durkon put the clause "finally" into his question--so the answer of "posthumously" doesn't rule out any penultimate visits to his Dwarven homelands.

Pvednes
2006-07-15, 06:47 PM
As for Roy, the Oracle did at least try to help him out a bit...but he wouldn't listen.

EmeraldFire
2006-07-15, 06:52 PM
Am I the only one confused by the suddent inclusion of Tiamat? Up until now all of the pantheons in OOTS have been based on real world religions, and now all of a sudden a traditional D&D deity gets tossed into the mix. Has she appeared once before and I missed it, or is everyone else just kind of saying "hey that's neat" without overanalyzing things? :P

Tiamat is a primeval monster/goddess in Babylonian and Sumerian mythology.

Rest of the story at, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamet

Kadasbrass
2006-07-15, 06:57 PM
It may not be Taimat, it could be Takhisis from Dragonlance. She looks just like Tiamat, but is a different deity. She is mentioned by name in comic #280 by the lawyers when speaking of court cases, "Everman vs Takhisis."

Kish
2006-07-15, 07:00 PM
It may not be Taimat, it could be Takhisis from Dragonlance. She looks just like Tiamat, but is a different deity. She is mentioned by name in comic #280 by the lawyers when speaking of court cases, "Everman vs Takhisis."
But we know Tiamat is one of the Gods of the OotS world, so what purpose would the oracle calling upon Takhisis instead serve?

Finwe
2006-07-15, 07:01 PM
I love V's wording in his question. He doesn't ask, "how can I achieve ultimate arcane power," he asks "how WILL I acheive ultimate arcane power." So like V :P

[Insert Neat Username Here]
2006-07-15, 07:09 PM
Roy does plan to return to Azure City to get a teleport from Shojo, so maybe he'll arrive just in time to stop Xykon he'll probably leave just before Xykon arrives. ;D

Daedrous Avari
2006-07-15, 07:58 PM
Funny, eh?

I think Roy's got a high intelligence.

High strength.

Good constitution.

A wisdom of -6.

charik
2006-07-15, 08:47 PM
Loved the comic.

A few points: for anyone saddened by Durkon's Q&A, you probably haven't read OtOoPC, and really should. There's a powerful reason why the High Priest of Thor hasn't called him back.

'Bad answers'? The Oracle is in the business of giving factually correct answers to the questions as asked, not to the questions meant. Probably LN. I'm reminded of an O. Henry story about an alien who sets up shop, granting one wish per customer for a price. A guy walks in, and asks to be able to have his head cut off without dying. Done. OK, now put it back on. Sorry, one wish per person. :o

Blackwing: almost certainly asked "how do I get my wizard to remember I exist?" Sure, Molonel, it gets sold as a sexual aid, but I bet if one Googled every single herbal supplement in existence, at least 99 and 44/100ths percent would advertise their presumed sexual effects.

Now, off to decode Haley's question. Sure, I could read it in the What Haley Said thread, but I enjoy these puzzles.

theKOT
2006-07-15, 09:26 PM
I liked this. Funny, informative and intriguing all at the same time. 10 outta 10.

Oh, and I also think Haley's answer will be the new "When the goat turns....."

_JM_
2006-07-15, 09:43 PM
Floating Kobold. Pinata?

Getting the gold back would be even better than getting sweets. ;)

Agree that there is hope for Durkon with the word "finally" and the chance that would be the "final return" rather than the only return.

Not sure why Roy bothered to ask his over complex question. Okay with a different question the Kobold might be able to twist the answer. But...when the Kobold did that the previous time Roy just dangled him out the window until he got the proper answer. Therefore both Roy and the Kobold (and Belkar) know that if the Kobold gives a smart-ass answer this will not be accepted and could cause pain or death for the Oracle. ;D

Personally I think Roy listened to the Magic Mouth too closely and got infected with lawyer / disclaimer speak. :)

Damian
2006-07-15, 10:29 PM
Not sure why Roy bothered to ask his over complex question. Okay with a different question the Kobold might be able to twist the answer.


It's sort of like using Wish. Prophecies and Wish spells seem to be the only time that the GM is actively hostile against the party. This might be the first time that the GM got around it be making the simplest, and not the most complex, question the right one. Clever.

TinSoldier
2006-07-15, 10:37 PM
Funny, eh?

I think Roy's got a high intelligence.

High strength.

Good constitution.

A wisdom of -6.
I see a lot of people questioning Roy's intelligence and wisdom because of the question he asked.

But remember, having a high intelligence and wisdom does not mean that you never make stupid mistakes, just that you make them less often. That's my explanation anyway.

Oh, and I thought that this comic was better than the last two or three. I didn't look closely at the excellent artwork until someone mentioned it in this thread :-[ but it was truly well done.

silvadel
2006-07-15, 11:21 PM
I see a lot of people questioning Roy's intelligence and wisdom because of the question he asked.

But remember, having a high intelligence and wisdom does not mean that you never make stupid mistakes, just that you make them less often. That's my explanation anyway.

Oh, and I thought that this comic was better than the last two or three. I didn't look closely at the excellent artwork until someone mentioned it in this thread :-[ but it was truly well done.

Naw -- having high int and wis means your stupid mistakes are made in MUCH more spectacular ways.

Flak_Razorwill
2006-07-16, 12:40 AM
Wow.

Durkon: Well, I think the dwarves'll get to live. But then again, the prophecy never said anything about returning alive being problematic.

V: I'm sure it'll be funny to an extent that will cripple small children with my laughter and/or the WTF waves coming from my frontal lobe, if it exists at that point. Idea: "Oh my farkin' god!" to something powerful.

Haley: The opportunity will come. She's been mute for about 6 months. We're due.

Elan: Define "happy." In an asylum with food and laudanum could certainly make HIM happy. But so could a fairytale ending, too.

Belkar: If he fricking touches my love, I will begin killing things.

Roy: I'll be as ambiguous as possible: Pain.

TinSoldier
2006-07-16, 01:26 AM
Belkar: If he fricking touches my love, I will begin killing things.Who? The Oracle? Vaarsuvius? Roy? Miko's horse Windstriker? Miko?

'Cause if you mean Miko then I agree with you. I'll wear that fricken' halfling's head as a hat myself!

Ink
2006-07-16, 01:54 AM
Strange that Roy didn't think of asking the Oracle (getting someone else to ask) what kind of reinforcements Xykon has. As a master battle tactician he should plan better.

Illsbane
2006-07-16, 02:23 AM
... Roy, you ******* #######! *cough* That is all, thank you. (Censuring done by Illsbane himself)

kerberos
2006-07-16, 04:21 AM
But remember, having a high intelligence and wisdom does not mean that you never make stupid mistakes, just that you make them less often. That's my explanation anyway.
That's one possibility, another is that he was railroaded into that phrasing, which clearly reflects even less unfavorably on his Int and Wis.

AmbrMerlinus
2006-07-16, 06:56 AM
Who? The Oracle? Vaarsuvius? Roy? Miko's horse Windstriker? Miko?

'Cause if you mean Miko then I agree with you. I'll wear that fricken' halfling's head as a hat myself!

Why do you people like Miko so much?

kerberos
2006-07-16, 07:27 AM
Who? The Oracle? Vaarsuvius? Roy? Miko's horse Windstriker? Miko?

'Cause if you mean Miko then I agree with you. I'll wear that fricken' halfling's head as a hat myself!
Impressive. Most impressive. You have controlled your fear. Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me.

Sir_Norbert
2006-07-16, 07:35 AM
Strange that Roy didn't think of asking the Oracle (getting someone else to ask) what kind of reinforcements Xykon has. As a master battle tactician he should plan better.

Not strange -- he only got one question and finding out which gate was the important thing, if he hadn't bungled it.

He could have asked one of the others to ask that question, but I don't think he wanted to us them in that way (c.f. the strip where he tore up their contracts).

Kaerou
2006-07-16, 10:09 AM
As long as the Kobold is okay, i dun care about the rest! in relation fo Belkars question.

Then again, he'll know if Belkar would hurt him so.. must be Roy or Miko or the others.. hope its Miko or horse.

Serina_Spellbinder
2006-07-16, 10:26 AM
Roy's question...I've been in games with players who try to act all clever and cutesy like that and end up wondering what the heck went wrong. :D

EDIT: A double comic! Many thanks to you, Giant. :)

Coffee_Dragon
2006-07-16, 10:29 AM
Why do you people like Miko so much?

Because she is Lawful and Good. And because she is widely hated for being Lawful and Good.

Yay, Miko derailage! It was a long time ago.

Ink
2006-07-16, 10:33 AM
Not strange -- he only got one question and finding out which gate was the important thing, if he hadn't bungled it.

He could have asked one of the others to ask that question, but I don't think he wanted to us them in that way (c.f. the strip where he tore up their contracts).

I don't think that would be using them. After all this battle involves them as much as it does him. Any of them could be killed as a result of bad tactics.

boolean
2006-07-16, 10:49 AM
Roy was the one to complain about the"Stupid railroad plot." (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=251) Now, when they can go wherever they decide, he leads the party in the wrong direction despite the NPC's efforts to point him in the right direction.

I'm loving the irony.

kerberos
2006-07-16, 11:02 AM
Because she is Lawful and Good. And because she is widely hated for being Lawful and Good.
*sight* no she's not hated for her class requirements, she's hated/disliked for her class features, one in particular.

Messy
2006-07-16, 12:01 PM
Thanks Giant, for the double-sized comic! :D

To the prophecies: wow, a very prominent storyline is beginning to unfold!

Belkar: Personally, I think he will be given the opportunity to kill V, instead save him, but will end up killing Windstriker.

Vaarsuvius: *sigh* More of this "right words, right being, right time, wrong reasons" -- and seriously, "ultimate arcane power?" I was expecting more out of V, like a question about his homelands or his spouse...

Haley: Just like the "When the goat turns, red strikes true," it's going to be something real stupid -- "goat = Nale's goatee, red = Haley's hair" compared to "don't look in the gift horse's mouth"?

Roy: What an idiot. He thinks that Xykon would never dare attack a full-fledged city (of paladins to boot). Outsmarted himself spectactularly.

Durkon: Always expected, if you read OtOoPC's anyway. Then again, and other people have mentioned, he could die and be ressurected and go back there. But I think he won't go back there until he visits it as a ghost (ghost, hence dead).

Elan: A very Elan-ish question. And I bet Belkar is the one with the unhappy ending, as we all know he's supposed to die soon (not before fulfilling his destiny to "have the opportunity" to kill an important character ;)). Elan and Haley I'm sure will have the happy ending, perhaps Roy will finally make up with his father (unlikely), V meet up with his spouse (maybe the Giant will never reveal V's gender, so this wouldn't happen?), and Durkon maybe not so happy, since he's going to his homelands "posthumously" (though he may meet a certain female dwarf who used to be teamed with Nale...)

Blackwing: The herb the Oracle mentioned probably has little to do with the raven asking about his sexuality, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, "avians have no external genitalia," so it really couldn't be that... but yes, it could be to try to get V to remember him (one of the herb's main effects was stimulation of memory?); perhaps he's lonely and he feels underappreciated and used not too often? ;) Or perhaps it's something totally different...

Whew, long post. Anyways, overall, whatever the Giant does with OOTS I will love it. No matter how he twists it, I'll always be happy with it because it'll stay funny. 8)

Felinoid
2006-07-16, 12:15 PM
*sight* no she's not hated for her class requirements, she's hated/disliked for her class features, one in particular.
And not even that. Hinjo's got the customary stick-up-the-behind as well, and yet he's at least pleasant. Miko's just a b**** to everyone for no reason, and it's for that attitude that she's hated. Roy puts it quite well in #251 if you need more.

Luvlein
2006-07-16, 12:51 PM
Miko's just a b**** to everyone for no reason, and it's for that attitude that she's hated. Roy puts it quite well in #251 if you need more.
I disagree, she has good reasons, but she takes her reasons far too seriously, I have to admit. Love, kindness, manners- all that is lost when Miko thinks that righteousness is threatened.

matafuego
2006-07-16, 01:23 PM
"When the gift horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouth"

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/117000.html

Meaning

Don't be ungrateful when you receive a gift.

Anybody else thinks Haley's speech is going to be veeery helpful in some way??

Coffee_Dragon
2006-07-16, 02:04 PM
Miko's just a b**** to everyone for no reason, and it's for that attitude that she's hated.

#1 and #2 in the Miko FRC. ;)

Silverain
2006-07-16, 03:55 PM
Y'know, it's possible Durkon is going to die a heroic untimely death sometime during the comic, but has anybody considered another possibility?

Maybe he'll just settle down someplace else (other than his dwarven homeland) and live happily ever after, and only his body will go home to be buried with his ancestors.

Felinoid
2006-07-16, 04:18 PM
I disagree, she has good reasons, but she takes her reasons far too seriously, I have to admit. Love, kindness, manners- all that is lost when Miko thinks that righteousness is threatened.

Miko would think righteousness was threatened by a sandwich. :P And before you say, "No, she wouldn't," remember the sandwiches that the Bandit Sandwich Artisan made for the OotS. I'd bet good money that she'd have a problem with that. ;) She also thinks that removing a tag from a mattress is punishable by death, given her reaction at the inn that got blown up.

She even thinks righteousness is threatened whenever anyone so much as disagrees with her. She is apparently the ultimate authority on everything right and good, and if you don't agree with her you are corrupt/evil. Her parting words to the group after the trial show a complete lack of any objectivity at all, and that's dangerous.

Korta
2006-07-16, 05:30 PM
Loved this comic!

So glad to hear that Elan will get a happy ending :) Although yes, I'm sure Elan has the capacity to be happy no matter what...but still nice to know!

As for Belkar dying...who said the oracle was telling the truth? Belkar didn't pay for that information, so no guarantees on the accuracy of it. Perhaps he saw Belkar about to die, not being dead.

And for those who are upset to hear about Durkon never getting back to the Dwarven Homelands... heck, I haven't even read the prequel book, but I got that impression from what Durkon told Hilgya. Sad that Durkon had to find out, but well, he asked.

And somehow, I have a feeling that Haley's answer will be...a lot more literal than it looks...

Awesome job! Can't wait for more! As always...

Ponderosa
2006-07-16, 05:44 PM
I'm surprised that no one else has considered that Roy has outsmarted everyone, including the readers and the DM (or however you personify the Storyline.)

By asking his incredibly precisely worded question, he insured that the Oracle would tell him which gate Xykon would approach first. More importantly, by obviously and blatantly leaving out Azure City, he was able to see how the Oracle responded. Here's how it worked out:

By the Oracle's answer, he learned that Xykon would head to Girard's gate before Kraagor's gate. By the Oracle's hesitant reaction, and specifically, the line, "it is not my fault if the plot sequence gets screwed up," he could deduce that neither of those two is the gate that Xykon will be at next. Logically, then, Roy now knows that Xykon will go to Azure City, then Girard's gate, then Kraagor's gate.


As for why Roy would go through this convulted method, I just picture him as a metagaming player. He figures that he won't be able to learn the precise order of where Xykon goes when for one question, and that if he tries, the Oracle will trick him with an obscure riddle. So by outsmarting the Oracle, he instead finds out everything. It makes sense, because he often acts like a metagamer, so he would think that way, and because he's also incredibly smart -- after all, the mind flayer did pick him first.

Roy 1, DM 0.

Penguin
2006-07-16, 06:12 PM
Gotta say, even with the somewhat random updating, OOTS is still one of my favourite webcomics :) You rule, Giant.

Coffee_Dragon
2006-07-16, 06:12 PM
Roy will only remember the green speech balloon.

silvadel
2006-07-16, 06:19 PM
Modify Memory
Level: Brd 4

You reach into the subject's mind and modify as many as 5 minutes of its memories in one of the following ways.

• Allow the subject to recall with perfect clarity an event it actually experienced.

-----

If only elan were smart enough to actually do something like that....

Felistor
2006-07-16, 06:26 PM
"When the gift horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouth"

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/117000.html

Meaning

Don't be ungrateful when you receive a gift.

Anybody else thinks Haley's speech is going to be veeery helpful in some way??

Yup, that's how I interpret it. (Which means of course that the Oracle didn't really answer Haley's question).

charik
2006-07-16, 06:44 PM
Yup, that's how I interpret it. (Which means of course that the Oracle didn't really answer Haley's question).

I don't think that's allowed (not answering the question asked). I may, though, be a very obscure answer that doesn't make sense until it comes about.

Oh, and as to Elan's Q&A, 'a happy ending' has another meaning which cannot be explained on a PG forum. ;)

Alfryd
2006-07-16, 06:54 PM
...Belkar's actually gonna kill someone annoying (because honestly, Roy and V really need to get the sticks out of their ends).

"Belkar, apparently , is getting *worse*."
I beg to differ.
Does the fact that both Roy and V saved his life at one point not strike you as even slightly relevant?


I think Roy's got a high intelligence.
High strength.
Good constitution.
A wisdom of -6.
Rich has apparently endowed him with 'very good" int and wis, though I can't say I see it half the time.

Okay with a different question the Kobold might be able to twist the answer.
No more than with the existing phrasing.

But remember, having a high intelligence and wisdom does not mean that you never make stupid mistakes, just that you make them less often.
The odds against a high int/wis character making a blooper on this scale are... *sigh*... completely irrelevant.


Belkar: If he fricking touches my love, I will begin killing things.

'Cause if you mean Miko then I agree with you. I'll wear that fricken' halfling's head as a hat myself!
No no no. You must burn the remains. Burning! BURNING!
*ahem*


Why do you people like Miko so much?
She has not had an easy life, and by the looks of things, it ain't gonna get any easier.
Miko is a deeply, deeply flawed person, but she also has many redeeming virtues. Unfortunately, the virtues are subtle, the flaws swiftly apparent.
Miko, Pro: Brave, honourable, honest, intelligent, resourceful, skilled, physical goddess, moderately compassionate and actually quite tolerant (though not verbally.)
Miko, Con: Bloodthirsty, prone to outbursts of rage and rationalisation, chronically insensitive to others' feelings, defensive, peremptory, arrogant.

Miko's just a b**** to everyone for no reason, and it's for that attitude that she's hated. Roy puts it quite well in #251 if you need more.
Miko FRC No.4.

#1 and #2 in the Miko FRC.
Thank you. See below.

She also thinks that removing a tag from a mattress is punishable by death, given her reaction at the inn that got blown up.
From the Giant:

..you forgot people who claim she should have Fallen for the mattress tag joke, because, you know, other characters are allowed to randomly overreact for the sake of humor, but not her.

Her parting words to the group after the trial show a complete lack of any objectivity at all, and that's dangerous.
I agree that her willingness to hack down multiple innocents in an effort to smite one evildoer could not be justified. I also believe that if this attitude persists her Fall is inevitable as a matter of alignment shift. But I don't think this is typical behaviour for her.

Luvlein
2006-07-16, 07:04 PM
She even thinks righteousness is threatened whenever anyone so much as disagrees with her. She is apparently the ultimate authority on everything right and good, and if you don't agree with her you are corrupt/evil. Her parting words to the group after the trial show a complete lack of any objectivity at all
And that's why I'm in love with her ;P

xyzchyx
2006-07-16, 07:37 PM
Okay... when Roy and Durkon visited the Oracle last time, he gave them a most unhelpful answer... "In his throne room" in answer to "Where's Xykon", for which Durkon and Roy threatened the Oracle to get a more useful response. It seems evident to me that V's, Haley's, and Belkar's answers are similarly unhelpful, and in that light it seems evident to me that the Oracle deserves to be similarly threatened again.

Kish
2006-07-16, 07:46 PM
Does the fact that both Roy and V saved his life at one point not strike you as even slightly relevant?
You think he never killed someone who saved his life before?

No, I agree with the person you're responding to. He's not getting worse, he's just continuing to display how thoroughly evil he is--and has always been.

Blaznak
2006-07-16, 08:10 PM
Pretty decent comic and definately fun. The e-debate on this should rage for years to come...

:)

skreweded
2006-07-16, 08:12 PM
What if the "gift horse" of haley's is the inability to speak? Whoazorz!!

Edited for spelling. Whoazorz was whozorz.Hmm.

Straun
2006-07-16, 08:56 PM
Ooh, can I lay claim to the Girard gate, as that's my sirname? Please?

Christian (yes, that really is my name) Girard

Scion_of_the_Light
2006-07-16, 09:04 PM
Why do you people like Miko so much?


She's the best designed villain I've yet to encounter in any Dnd related source. Ever. I mean, she's very complex, and I just can feel the plot potential she has. She can go either way...to realizing her folly, or going evil. Either one. It's really quite well done. She's one of the characters that, as someone who cares more of the plot than the comedy, you really can appreciate. I mean, V is pretty boring, Roy's predictable, Belkar is annoying, and Durkon is somewhat simple. Most of them are fairly simple characters, a few more deep than the others (Haley especially, though I can see much growth possible in Elan). Miko, though, has massive character development in her.

So, I suppose I partially love her because of her complexity, partially because of her potential, and partially because she kicks butt...

Silverain
2006-07-16, 09:16 PM
I'm betting Belkar will get to kill Miko, BUT then she'll get resurrected by the party (or by the Sapphire Guard).

I keep forgetting, but it's pretty important, that in D&D death is not always permanent.

Arian
2006-07-16, 09:23 PM
Ooh, can I lay claim to the Girard gate, as that's my sirname? Please?

Christian (yes, that really is my name) Girard

Ooh. Hello, Christian. Fancy meeting you here. :)

Arian
(yes, that really is my name) ;D

silvadel
2006-07-16, 11:38 PM
I just thought of something -- where did the crow get all that gold from?

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-07-16, 11:52 PM
I just thought of something -- where did the crow get all that gold from?
Actually, the bag contains magic beans.

Alfryd
2006-07-17, 12:17 AM
You think he never killed someone who saved his life before?
I see no evidence for it. Therefore, No, although it's plausible.

Anyways. Nice to get 3 comics this week.

kerberos
2006-07-17, 01:58 AM
Does the fact that both Roy and V saved his life at one point not strike you as even slightly relevant?
Not really. I supose you could argue that it makes trying to kill them worse that trying to kill Elan. I don't agree since he has far better reason to kill Roy and in particular V than he had for killing Elan, but I can see your point.

Even if we do concider it worse though that doesn't mean he's grown worse, simply that he didn't have opportunity/reason to do something that bad before.
All the evidence as I see to it popints to Belkar always being a total utter raving psychotic, who would kill almost anybody with the slightest provocation or even without one. It's hardly possible for him to grow worse.

I really think that you and other people who thinks he''s grown worse because of this, because he killed the guard or because he set fire on Miko never really understood him in the first place. Belkar has NO redeming qualities whatsoever (and I say this as a pro Belkar person).

Swordster
2006-07-17, 02:08 AM
Okay... when Roy and Durkon visited the Oracle last time, he gave them a most unhelpful answer... "In his throne room" in answer to "Where's Xykon", for which Durkon and Roy threatened the Oracle to get a more useful response. It seems evident to me that V's, Haley's, and Belkar's answers are similarly unhelpful, and in that light it seems evident to me that the Oracle deserves to be similarly threatened again.

Not particularly..."How will I achieve complete and ultimate total arcane power?" What the heck does that even mean? V and Haley asked general questions, not the legal-ese that Roy gave, and so got general answers, V more than Haley as befits the nature of their questions. And Belkar asked a yes or no question, he's just too stupid to say "Which of the following, if any, will I kill?"

Another interesting point is that Roy was the only one who asked a question that could actually influence the plot and wasn't just foreshadowing. The questions that the others asked were will, how, who, etc. The outcomes would have happened anyway. For example, V asked a how question, so the answer was a "this is how it will happen." Theoretically, it would have happened whether or not s/he asked the question. The same holds true for everyone but Roy and possibly Haley.

Also, I really like Miko. She's an interesting villain, a refreshing take on a classic archtype.

This post is now officially too long.

Wizzardman
2006-07-17, 02:12 AM
She's the best designed villain I've yet to encounter in any Dnd related source. Ever. I mean, she's very complex, and I just can feel the plot potential she has. She can go either way...to realizing her folly, or going evil. Either one. It's really quite well done. She's one of the characters that, as someone who cares more of the plot than the comedy, you really can appreciate.



I have to agree with this. She makes a great villain. That doesn't mean I like HER [as in her character; I think she's an arrogant, crusading git and complete paladin stereotype], but I love her concept; she makes a great villain, at least partially because she's on the same side as the OOtS team [at least at the moment]. I could care less about her fighting skills [lets face it, folks; butt-kicking warriors are a dime a dozen in D&D], but the constant battle between her somewhat bloodthirsty and strict interpretation of Lawful Good and her Code of Paladin-ness makes for an interesting and fun plotline.

Give Durkon a break, though. He's a lot more worldly than Miko [at least alignmentwise; 'Smite Everything and Morally Justify it Later' is a very naive form of Lawful Good], and seems to actually care for his comrades, even after they do stupid, annoying, or uncaring things. He's not really 'simple' so much as playing his alignment; he's honest, tries to solve problems without violence [at least partywise], trusts and believes in just governments, and genuinely cares about other people, even those he's never met.

Speaking of which: I hope no one's mentioned this already, but when I read 'Posthumously' the first thing I thought of was [Origin Spoiler: considering certain high-ranking dwarves having bad prophecies about his return] that Durkon would eventually return to his homeland undead.

I doubt it'll be intentional on his part, but Xykon would probably be really happy to forcibly convert an OOtS member to his side, and Durkon's ex-girlfriend would probably see that as a great way to get revenge/be able to have Durkon all to herself forever.

KayJay
2006-07-17, 04:20 AM
Just read the comic- brilliant :D Talking to that Oracle reminds me of making a wish spell :)

Pvednes
2006-07-17, 05:38 AM
I have to agree with this. She makes a great villain. That doesn't mean I like HER [as in her character; I think she's an arrogant, crusading git and complete paladin stereotype], but I love her concept; she makes a great villain, at least partially because she's on the same side as the OOtS team [at least at the moment]. I could care less about her fighting skills [lets face it, folks; butt-kicking warriors are a dime a dozen in D&D], but the constant battle between her somewhat bloodthirsty and strict interpretation of Lawful Good and her Code of Paladin-ness makes for an interesting and fun plotline.

Give Durkon a break, though. He's a lot more worldly than Miko [at least alignmentwise; 'Smite Everything and Morally Justify it Later' is a very naive form of Lawful Good], and seems to actually care for his comrades, even after they do stupid, annoying, or uncaring things. He's not really 'simple' so much as playing his alignment; he's honest, tries to solve problems without violence [at least partywise], trusts and believes in just governments, and genuinely cares about other people, even those he's never met.

Speaking of which: I hope no one's mentioned this already, but when I read 'Posthumously' the first thing I thought of was [Origin Spoiler: considering certain high-ranking dwarves having bad prophecies about his return] that Durkon would eventually return to his homeland undead.

I doubt it'll be intentional on his part, but Xykon would probably be really happy to forcibly convert an OOtS member to his side, and Durkon's ex-girlfriend would probably see that as a great way to get revenge/be able to have Durkon all to herself forever.

She's not a villain at all, she's an antagonist.

mec
2006-07-17, 08:16 AM
Roy phrased his question like a wannabe law student. He should have used his talisman and summoned a real law student!

Kanashimi
2006-07-17, 08:52 AM
great comic. That's awful that Roy didn't ask the actually more logical question of which gate is xykon headed to next. I know how that is with some DMs though. They don't actually want to use divinations so they make them as obscure as possible.

very funny.

Aurorax
2006-07-17, 08:54 AM
Went back to read the prequel book. I don't think the prophesy allows Durkon to return home dead OR alive without bringing death and destruction. It was simply worded that when he next returned home, he would bring death and destruction. Not, "When he next returns home alive, he will...." Returning home dead means returning home, after all...

Cathrindir
2006-07-17, 09:05 AM
Great comic. "Caw caw caaw caw caw!" "Try Gingko Balboa."
I really can't wait to see who Belkar kills. Let it be Miko, Let it be Miko!
Woot! 12th page!

Ruduen
2006-07-17, 09:53 AM
Figures that legal wording backfires! This is why the lawyers have a bad win-loss record.

If Roy threw the plot off track, wouldn't that be part of the plot now, so he's setting the plot right? Or was the plot planned headed in a different direction before this comic?

Also, doesn't commune allow for an answer that doesn't exactly follow the question if it's "misleading"? Or is it a different spell? Or...


My head hurts now.

Frozen_Northman
2006-07-17, 10:01 AM
That was a great comic. As if it wasn't funny enough, we even got a punchline, though I think it's spelled "Gingko Biloba".

I believe you are partially correct. Checking Wikipedia, the proper spelling would seem to be ginkgo biloba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginkgo).

Reading "Bilboa" causes me to hear ghostly strains of "Eye of the Tiger" and imagine that the raven is cawing out, "Yo, Adrian!" (Though I also recognize that this implies a misspelling of Balboa.)

ImperiousLeader
2006-07-17, 10:22 AM
All I want to say is that I really love the Tiamat ... to the point where I want it as my avatar. Awesome.

Thortok2000
2006-07-17, 11:14 AM
Three questions:

1) Why do the hobgoblin in 5th-to-last panel and the goblin in 3rd-to-last panel look so much alike except for colors?

2) What did Haley say?

3) What's our guesses as to what the bird wanted in last panel?

xyzchyx
2006-07-17, 11:21 AM
It occurs to me that the insertion an if-clause in Roy's question actually causes it to become a hypothetical question, rather than a question that might be in any way even remotely relevant to the OotS's lives...

Lostboy
2006-07-17, 11:22 AM
It's funny how the Rocky movies have influenced everyone to want to misspell ginkgo biloba as "bilboa" or "balboa." ;D

Ghull_Ka
2006-07-17, 12:29 PM
I could comment about the plot. I really could. I could comment on the jokes. But people do that all the time.

No, I'm going to say something nobody else would bother to point out. They never do. See that head of Tiamat's? The one poking up through the top of the strip? That... that is the coolest stick-figure visual effect to date.

Well, that and the way the panels involving Xykon's legions are actually connected to show one full picture of the zombie dragon.

I agree, the art in this strip was phenominal. Really top-notch work. Tiamat even had the traditional horns/fins. <3

What I want to know: Who's the Bluecloak wearing hobgoblin? Does Redcloak have competition? :o

Ulicus
2006-07-17, 02:31 PM
What I want to know: Who's the Bluecloak wearing hobgoblin? Does Redcloak have competition? :o

If he's anything like the last Bluecloak wearing hobgoblin he came across, then I think not. ;)

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=149

Wizzardman
2006-07-17, 02:38 PM
She's not a villain at all, she's an antagonist.



Fine, fine. Use your specific literary terms for the opposition to the protagonists, then. Her constant Man vs Herself conflict still makes for a great Man vs Man plotline inside the comic.

radioKAOS
2006-07-17, 03:24 PM
Nicely Done Giant.

Love the 'best laid plans never survive contact with the players' part when Roy asks the Oracle. ;)

Krytha
2006-07-17, 03:42 PM
I'm betting Belkar will get to kill Miko, BUT then she'll get resurrected by the party (or by the Sapphire Guard).

I keep forgetting, but it's pretty important, that in D&D death is not always permanent.

And then Belkar will spend whatever is left of his short, twisted (but mostly short) life paying for Miko's resurrection? I bet he dies out of pure rage due to the fact that they're making him pay for Miko to be brought back to life...

thevorpalbunny
2006-07-17, 04:52 PM
[SPOILER!!!!]@durkon posthumously That means (relatively) little to a D&D party. The OOTS more than others (they run away more), but it means that sometime before he returns home he will die. He could die, be brought back, then go home. He could die, be brought home, then brought back. He could die, be turned into an undead, killed again, then true reserrected(spelling is wrong. You know what I mean). D&D chars die.[/SPOILER!!!!]
Great comic

Blue_Dragon
2006-07-17, 05:44 PM
"Well, the spell DOES require me to identify the recipients unambiguously."

"...Hairy mouth-breathing ape-people."

"Caw caw caw caw, caw caw caw?"


hmmm, I guess the crow isn't guaranteed an accurate response.



*woot* promoted to "Pixieitp"!

Crusher
2006-07-17, 06:14 PM
True, but the Oracle's response to the poor raven is really more advice than prophesizing.

Eriol
2006-07-17, 06:35 PM
I should have thought of this when I saw this: the Oracle should have refused to answer via saying that the initial premise of the question was false: that there are only two possible gates that Xykon could be going towards.

Bah. Oh well, Roy is outsmarting himself far too much. And considering that they are probably going to want revenge later for the question... he should just volunteer the information.


And bad on Belkar's intelligence (or lack thereof) for phrasing his question poorly. Should have asked "Of the following people, which of them will I get to kill in the future: <the list>" rather than what he did, since obviously the Oracle is a better than yes-or-no responder.

(hoping for earlier-than-normal next comic to be posted)

Evik
2006-07-17, 07:08 PM
Humm, I think I would be staying away from me dwarven homelands if I were him...
But we know Elan will have a happy ending :D
let's all see how it turns out now heh

Kanashimi
2006-07-17, 07:20 PM
I just realized what a totally uncooperative party this is. I mean, most groups I deal with we get together to make the most out of our divinations. Now, Belkar we can't expect much better of, and Haley has something that needs to be fixed. But the rest of them asking selfish questions when there is a major plot point coming ahead?

I mean if I had a party going in on this we'd all map out what each of us would say to get further along our designated path. Not wanting obsure power, knowing the end to a prophesy or asking about ED!

Daedrous Avari
2006-07-17, 07:55 PM
I see a lot of people questioning Roy's intelligence and wisdom because of the question he asked.

But remember, having a high intelligence and wisdom does not mean that you never make stupid mistakes, just that you make them less often. That's my explanation anyway.

Oh, and I thought that this comic was better than the last two or three. I didn't look closely at the excellent artwork until someone mentioned it in this thread :-[ but it was truly well done.

Okay... (I didn't know posting on this forum would get me critized on every post... Someone's probably going to critize this one to..

warmachine
2006-07-17, 07:58 PM
I should have thought of this when I saw this: the Oracle should have refused to answer via saying that the initial premise of the question was false: that there are only two possible gates that Xykon could be going towards.

Not quite. Roy never said 'only'. The existence of a third gate doesn't preclude that Xykon might go for the two stated. Although Xykon isn't going for either of the two first, the question does not ask about intent, only future location.

charik
2006-07-17, 08:12 PM
I mean if I had a party going in on this we'd all map out what each of us would say to get further along our designated path. Not wanting obsure power, knowing the end to a prophesy or asking about ED!
There's actually a simple answer to this (and to Roy's phrasing of his question). Roy isn't really concerned about the integrity of the Gates; all he cares about is fulfilling his father's Blood Oath of Vengence. As Lord Sojo is willing to equipt and finance the group to check on the two other gates, the easy way to take is to find out which of those two gates Xylon will get to first. If Azure City and its Gate get destroyed in the meanwhile, oh well.

From Roy's perspective, all he really needed to know is which gate he should go to to prepare for Xylon's arrival. There really isn't any need for any other questions to be asked.

Straun
2006-07-17, 08:33 PM
Ooh. Hello, Christian. Fancy meeting you here. :)

Arian
(yes, that really is my name) ;D


Indeed, indeed! Remember, never summon anything bigger than your head.

CJ

Faramir
2006-07-17, 08:35 PM
It's amusing that the most non-specific question, Elan's, got the most satisfactory answer. The Oracle was incredibly nice to try and give Roy a chance like that. Roy is truly not as smart as he likes to think.


I don't know if that was supposed to signify the Oracle being nice so much as the GM being frustrated :). Great D&D joke, I've been there many times...

I agree with those who say Blackwing asked "How can I get Vaarsuvius to remember that I exist?" And that makes it one of the funniest punchlines in a while.

Chaosmage
2006-07-17, 09:49 PM
There's actually a simple answer to this (and to Roy's phrasing of his question). Roy isn't really concerned about the integrity of the Gates; all he cares about is fulfilling his father's Blood Oath of Vengence. As Lord Sojo is willing to equipt and finance the group to check on the two other gates, the easy way to take is to find out which of those two gates Xylon will get to first. If Azure City and its Gate get destroyed in the meanwhile, oh well.

From Roy's perspective, all he really needed to know is which gate he should go to to prepare for Xylon's arrival. There really isn't any need for any other questions to be asked.

Not true, Roy specifically said he was doing this to save the world and not because of the blood oath.

Look here: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=293


On another note, if Xykon will be visiting one of the other gates in the future it means he will not get what he wants from the azure city gate. Hopefully that means he just never reaches it

Kish
2006-07-17, 10:28 PM
Roy isn't really concerned about the integrity of the Gates; all he cares about is fulfilling his father's Blood Oath of Vengence.
You said what, now?

Steward
2006-07-17, 10:39 PM
You said what, now?

He said, " Roy isn't really concerned about the integrity of the Gates; all he cares about is fulfilling his father's Blood Oath of Vengence."

Thomar_of_Uointer
2006-07-17, 11:01 PM
I'm surprised that no one else has considered that Roy has outsmarted everyone, including the readers and the DM (or however you personify the Storyline.)

By asking his incredibly precisely worded question, he insured that the Oracle would tell him which gate Xykon would approach first. More importantly, by obviously and blatantly leaving out Azure City, he was able to see how the Oracle responded. Here's how it worked out:

By the Oracle's answer, he learned that Xykon would head to Girard's gate before Kraagor's gate. By the Oracle's hesitant reaction, and specifically, the line, "it is not my fault if the plot sequence gets screwed up," he could deduce that neither of those two is the gate that Xykon will be at next. Logically, then, Roy now knows that Xykon will go to Azure City, then Girard's gate, then Kraagor's gate.


As for why Roy would go through this convulted method, I just picture him as a metagaming player. He figures that he won't be able to learn the precise order of where Xykon goes when for one question, and that if he tries, the Oracle will trick him with an obscure riddle. So by outsmarting the Oracle, he instead finds out everything. It makes sense, because he often acts like a metagamer, so he would think that way, and because he's also incredibly smart -- after all, the mind flayer did pick him first.

Roy 1, DM 0.


Unfortunately, Roy only remembers the answer, not the particulars. The Oracle's comments were not part of the answer. However, it would make sense for Roy to return to Azure City to stock up on supplies for the journey, something they failed to do when they left, and after T3h 3p1c 847713zorz, they'll know where to go next.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2006-07-17, 11:02 PM
Oh, Gods, I just used leet in a forum post. :o

Blue_Dragon
2006-07-17, 11:13 PM
I should have thought of this when I saw this: the Oracle should have refused to answer via saying that the initial premise of the question was false: that there are only two possible gates that Xykon could be going towards.



I believe that (within the field of mathematical logic, anyways) the oracle can make a perfectly true response to Roy's question. The statement "If This, then That", when "This" is False, is true regardless of whether "That" is True. But, when "This" is true, the statement is true only when "That" is true.

Thus: "If Xykon will be withing 1000 feet of one of those locations, It will be Girard's Gate first." Is perfectly true even if Xykon meets his final end at Azure City. (I'm not suggesting that this will occur.)

I realize that the Oracle didn't say exactly this, but he was responding to Roy's question, and interpreting the Oracle's words without considering the question is (literally) quoting him out of context. So I think my point is valid.

(I omitted various steps in this "proof", such as demonstrating that Xykon can't arrive within 1000 feet of both gates simultaneously, for clarity. Or relative clarity, anyways.)

Eriol
2006-07-17, 11:13 PM
Not quite. Roy never said 'only'. The existence of a third gate doesn't preclude that Xykon might go for the two stated. Although Xykon isn't going for either of the two first, the question does not ask about intent, only future location.
I mean that he gave "initial conditions" that Xykon could only go towards those two, and then saying "given this (false statement) then (question)". IIRC from Logic, either answer is actually completely correct, as the initial conditions are completely false.

Or the true is false and the false is true. Been a while since I took that in university. Anybody remember how a false premise affects a logical outcome? There ARE rules surrounding it IIRC.

kerberos
2006-07-17, 11:14 PM
Oh, Gods, I just used leet in a forum post. :o
+|-|@ \|/4$'|\|+ |_33+, +|-|1$ 1$ |_33+ .

|>.z. |=E4R |\/|`/ |\/|4|) Lee7 5|<1lLZ!!

0}{}{, 4N|) |>}{0.- +e}{ |_Ee+] 1|_|_1+E.-4+e (http://www.jayssite.com/stuff/l33t/l33t_translator.html)

Alfryd
2006-07-17, 11:18 PM
I don't agree since he has far better reason to kill Roy and in particular V than he had for killing Elan, but I can see your point.
He has no reason to kill any of them. Well, strike that, anything-near-adequate-justififation. But he has reasons for outright gratitude toward V and Roy, were he capable of the emotion, which he is not.

It's hardly possible for him to grow worse... ...Belkar has NO redeming qualities whatsoever (and I say this as a pro Belkar person).
That's what I thought too. But he did risk his skin in the attempt to rescue Elan from the bandits, apparently on the basis that Elan makes him laugh. So, apparently, this counts for more than saving his life, now. I dunno. Maybe he's just getting progressively less logical instead.

'Smite Everything and Morally Justify it Later' is a very naive form of Lawful Good...
Which Miko does not adhere to, because that would, in fact, be CE. No. 5 in the Miko FRC.

She's not a villain at all, she's an antagonist.
Correct. She's an anti-villain. Someone in the villain's role who isn't actually villainous.

And then Belkar will spend whatever is left of his short, twisted (but mostly short) life paying for Miko's resurrection? I bet he dies out of pure rage due to the fact that they're making him pay for Miko to be brought back to life...
It is highly unlikely Miko will consciously permit both herself and Belkar to exist in the same universe, once she discovers he's out and alive.

So by outsmarting the Oracle, he instead finds out everything.
Or, he could just ask- "In what precise chronological order will Xykon the Lich sorcerer approach within a 1000-foot radius of the remaining Gates, enumerated as follows: The Gate of Girard on the western continent, the Gate of Kraagor near the polar cap, or the Gate of Soon in Azure City? If he does not approach a given location, you need not list it."

Oh, Gods, I just used leet in a forum post.
There, there.

TinSoldier
2006-07-17, 11:28 PM
Alfryd, you are the greatest defender of Miko -- my favorite antagonistic heroine!

charik
2006-07-18, 12:42 AM
Not true, Roy specifically said he was doing this to save the world and not because of the blood oath.

Look here: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=293
OK, I really need the new book, just so I can look these things up in a reasonable amount of time.

Blue_Dragon
2006-07-18, 12:51 AM
Anybody remember how a false premise affects a logical outcome? There ARE rules surrounding it IIRC.

If A and not A Then B.

I remember it more from Godel's Incompleteness Theorem then Mathematical Logic, per se, but that's outside the scope of this forum.

Note that it doesn't matter what B is. If A is both true and not true, then the system breaks down, and anything is true. (By the rules of logic, anyways)

xyzchyx
2006-07-18, 01:47 AM
I mean that he gave "initial conditions" that Xykon could only go towards those two, and then saying "given this (false statement) then (question)". IIRC from Logic, either answer is actually completely correct, as the initial conditions are completely false.

Or the true is false and the false is true. Been a while since I took that in university. Anybody remember how a false premise affects a logical outcome? There ARE rules surrounding it IIRC.A false premise in an implication *always* results in a true assertion. Thus, an answer that is false independant of the supplied premises of a hypothetical question is still a true answer if the supplied premises themselves in the question are false.

Warbanner
2006-07-18, 03:41 AM
Went back to read the prequel book. I don't think the prophesy allows Durkon to return home dead OR alive without bringing death and destruction. It was simply worded that when he next returned home, he would bring death and destruction. Not, "When he next returns home alive, he will...." Returning home dead means returning home, after all...

I'm surprised that this is probably the least commented-upon of the prophesies, since I find it the most interesting. I assume that Durkon's return as a corpse will be an important part of why he brings death and destruction when he returns, i.e. his corpse is brought back by his fellow party members, and then a certain Lich and his army turn out to be tracking the OOTS. Or something like that.

If nothing else, it's clear that the dwarven prophecy was a self-fulfilling one. Sending him away will cause the very thing they sought to prevent, even if he won't ever return in his lifetime. Wonderfully ironic, that...

Kish
2006-07-18, 05:11 AM
That's what I thought too. But he did risk his skin in the attempt to rescue Elan from the bandits, apparently on the basis that Elan makes him laugh. So, apparently, this counts for more than saving his life, now. I dunno. Maybe he's just getting progressively less logical instead.
I think what's changing is only your perception of Belkar, not Belkar. He's never been either logical or grateful. Saving his life counts for as much now as it did when he was first introduced--nothing.

And he risks his skin with the lack of hesitation that comes with having a weak grasp on cause and effect, whether it's for saving Elan or for torturing Miko.

carais
2006-07-18, 06:01 AM
Now, there's something where my knowledge of English abandons me a bit - can Durkon's 'finally' also be interpreted as in 'the final time'? What I mean is - could he return 389 times alive, leave, die of old age and then be carried home to be buried there? Not counting, of course, Raise Dead or similiar possibilities.

Concerning Belkar - cause the death of someone does not necessarily mean stab that person personally, does it? It could be done by accidentally dropping a branch in front a certain horse, e.g., leading to a broken leg and euthanasia, or stabbing a giant who then proceeds to fall upon V. Just for example.

/edit for spelling

Messenger
2006-07-18, 06:40 AM
Yay. Another wicked cool update. :)

Besides those cool, cryptic responses the Oracle gave and how Roy outsmarted himself, what gets gets me is...

Did the Oracle call upon Takhisis, the evil dragon goddess of Dragonlance, to give him the power to see into the future? :o

kerberos
2006-07-18, 07:16 AM
He has no reason to kill any of them.
He has plenty of reason, at least on the patentated belkar scale of psychotic justifications.
Well, strike that, anything-near-adequate-justififation.

Ohh well that's a different story... Well actually his reasons for killing V and Roy almost make sense. V did blow him up and Roy is keeping him prisoner. For good reasons admitably, particuarly for Roy, but that doesn't carry much weight with Belkar.


But he has reasons for outright gratitude toward V and Roy, were he capable of the emotion, which he is not.
quite so.


That's what I thought too. But he did risk his skin in the attempt to rescue Elan from the bandits, apparently on the basis that Elan makes him laugh. So, apparently, this counts for more than saving his life, now.
Quite so, it's done for entirelly selfish reasons. It certainly shows that he's no coward, but we already knew that. It's not as I see it so much that he's brave, but simply that he places only marginally higher value on his own welfare than on other people's

I dunno. Maybe he's just getting progressively less logical instead.
I don't really think so. If he behaves more illogical now than before, and it's not as if he was logical in the past, then I don't think it's because he has actually changed. It's simply becuase he is perhaps just now bored, or perhaps he just got the opportunity or inclination to be more illogical than before.

bg2soatob
2006-07-18, 07:27 AM
Woot! First page!

Roy wasn't wrong. After all, look what happened to Haley's question. That's got to be the stupidest prophecy answer I've ever referenced in a thread about a comic.

I'm betting on the 'you' for Belkar. Maybe because the oracle won't tell him who he will kill. That would be enough irony to last me ten strips.

UtherSRG
2006-07-18, 07:30 AM
Perhaps the four words from V will be "I love you, Belkar."
*shudder*

;D

UtherSRG
2006-07-18, 07:35 AM
Am I the only one confused by the suddent inclusion of Tiamat? Up until now all of the pantheons in OOTS have been based on real world religions, and now all of a sudden a traditional D&D deity gets tossed into the mix. Has she appeared once before and I missed it, or is everyone else just kind of saying "hey that's neat" without overanalyzing things? :P

Tiamat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat) is a real-world Babylonian diety. D&D has heavily massaged the mythology, but she existed in a real-world religion centuries before D&D was even thought of.

UtherSRG
2006-07-18, 07:53 AM
I found V's question somewhat...lacking. It seemed to me pathetically childish. I mean, 'complete and total ultimate arcane power'? It seems while characters like Haley have been deepened, V has become mired in platitudes. What a very...bland...motivation. V used to be my favorite character, but I am starting to like Elan and Haley much more now. Of course, Miko remains my favorite.
What alignment do you supposed V is? She's with the group not because it is the right thing to do, or because e feels a strong sense of duty. Those things are true, but she's ultimately adventuring in order to become powerful enough to unlock the secrets of the universe. Encountering the oracle is generally a one in a lifetime opportunity, and V realizes this and so acts accordingly. What I find implausible is that V didn't have a long-winded, well thought out question that would force the oracle to give many very explicit details. I think V failed eir INT check.

UtherSRG
2006-07-18, 07:58 AM
It may not be Taimat, it could be Takhisis from Dragonlance. She looks just like Tiamat, but is a different deity. She is mentioned by name in comic #280 by the lawyers when speaking of court cases, "Everman vs Takhisis."
Good point! Also, copare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takhisis and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat_(Dungeons_&_Dragons).

UtherSRG
2006-07-18, 08:10 AM
Durkon: Always expected, if you read OtOoPC's anyway. Then again, and other people have mentioned, he could die and be ressurected and go back there. But I think he won't go back there until he visits it as a ghost (ghost, hence dead).

I'm thinking that he gets to go home several times... but that he will return home finally in a posthomous state.

GoldDragon
2006-07-18, 10:21 AM
Hurray for dramatic irony!

charik
2006-07-18, 10:46 AM
Now, there's something where my knowledge of English abandons me a bit - can Durkon's 'finally' also be interpreted as in 'the final time'? ...

Concerning Belkar - cause the death of someone does not necessarily mean stab that person personally, does it? ...
You are correct on both counts. Each of these is a legitimate interpretation of the question asked, which is why Roy was so careful in how he worded his question.

Doug_Lampert
2006-07-18, 10:48 AM
Or: "Belkar, my beloved husband". Hmm... Actually I think either of those two statements, are more likely to cause the universe to colapse into a singularity, than to give V ultimate arcane power.If the universe collapses then anyone with arcane power at the moment of collapse has had ultimate (aka final or last) arcane power.

Eriol
2006-07-18, 11:38 AM
A false premise in an implication *always* results in a true assertion. Thus, an answer that is false independant of the supplied premises of a hypothetical question is still a true answer if the supplied premises themselves in the question are false.
So basically, because of the false premise, the Oracle could have answered EITHER way, since the premise was false, and thus both false answers are "true" according to the logic?

I think that's how it goes. Probably not what The Giant was thinking when he made it, but still, it works. ;)

Felinoid
2006-07-18, 12:24 PM
If nothing else, it's clear that the dwarven prophecy was a self-fulfilling one. Sending him away will cause the very thing they sought to prevent, even if he won't ever return in his lifetime. Wonderfully ironic, that...
Yeah, but probably not the way you're thinking. In OtOoPCs, the dwarven priest makes a rather good argument. After all, Durkon could've gone out for a supply run or to visit his uncle, and when he returned...well, that word says it all. But if they send him away and make him promise never to return until sent for, he won't return. However, it is self-fulfilling in a determination loop kind of way. Consider the likelyhood of bringing doom and destruction back with you after a visit to your uncle, or bringing it back with you after all the high-level conflicts he's gotten himself embroiled in.

Prophecy -> Sent away -> Gained powerful enemies -> Prophecy fulfilled on return
No prophecy -> Not sent away -> No powerful enemies -> Nice visit with uncle :D

Thomar_of_Uointer
2006-07-18, 01:25 PM
Now, there's something where my knowledge of English abandons me a bit - can Durkon's 'finally' also be interpreted as in 'the final time'? What I mean is - could he return 389 times alive, leave, die of old age and then be carried home to be buried there? Not counting, of course, Raise Dead or similiar possibilities.

Concerning Belkar - cause the death of someone does not necessarily mean stab that person personally, does it? It could be done by accidentally dropping a branch in front a certain horse, e.g., leading to a broken leg and euthanasia, or stabbing a giant who then proceeds to fall upon V. Just for example.

/edit for spelling

And with the use of raise dead, Belkar is actually capable of killing all of the people he listed!

DaMullet
2006-07-18, 01:42 PM
And with the use of raise dead, Belkar is actually capable of killing all of the people he listed!


Twice, even.

Freelance Henchman
2006-07-18, 02:02 PM
Late, late post...

Great comic, best in a while!

But Roy shooting himself in the foot (again?) sort of ticks me off a little. He's well-meaning most of the time and gets the shaft for it so often. (While Belkar that little b*st*rd makes life difficult for everyone and gets saved every time >:( )

kerberos
2006-07-18, 02:27 PM
If the universe collapses then anyone with arcane power at the moment of collapse has had ultimate (aka final or last) arcane power.


That's certainly an inovative definition of the word Ultimate. I don't think a dictionary wouold support it though. One could however argue that causing the universe to colapse into a singularity is a pretty damn ultimate power.

Sir_Norbert
2006-07-18, 02:58 PM
So basically, because of the false premise, the Oracle could have answered EITHER way, since the premise was false, and thus both false answers are "true" according to the logic?
While this is true, the Oracle didn't simply answer yes or no; he made a positive statement that Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's gate before Kraagor's. (Or other way round? Can't remember.) No if-clause in the answer, so we have to take it that his answer is literally true.

dakiwiboid
2006-07-18, 03:03 PM
Of course, the Raven Familiar's going to have a long hunt if he looks forginko bilboa, considering that the remedy is actually made from ginko biloba! Poor birdie!

Blue_Dragon
2006-07-18, 03:07 PM
So basically, because of the false premise, the Oracle could have answered EITHER way, since the premise was false, and thus both false answers are "true" according to the logic?


The premise isn't false unless he will never be within 1000 feet of either one. But yes, IF the premise is false, then he could have answered either way.

Doug_Lampert
2006-07-18, 03:07 PM
That's certainly an inovative definition of the word Ultimate. I don't think a dictionary wouold support it though. One could however argue that causing the universe to colapse into a singularity is a pretty damn ultimate power.

Actually it will. American Heritage Dictionary, two of the listed definitions are:
Being last in a series, process, or progression.
The final point; the conclusion.

That's definition number 1 for use as an adjactive (i.e. the primary definition) and number 2 for a noun.

Ultimate means final.

xyzchyx
2006-07-18, 03:40 PM
So basically, because of the false premise, the Oracle could have answered EITHER way, since the premise was false, and thus both false answers are "true" according to the logic?

Yes.

Although at this time, we do not yet factually *KNOW* that Roy's premise was false... only that Xykon is heading to Azure City at the moment. The predominant speculation is that his premise is factual and Xykon will be near one of the other two gates at some point in the future (although the plainness of the Oracle's answer in fact does not logically affect the truthfulness of the premise and likewise the truthfulness of the answer even if the premise were false)

Greebo
2006-07-18, 04:07 PM
If he is presumably going to be nearer that gate AFTER his visit to Azure City, that bodes poorly for Azure City, doesn't it...cause it means he has to survive.

So could it mean he's gonna pass near the gate on his way to Azure, w/o realising it?

Kish
2006-07-18, 05:11 PM
So could it mean he's gonna pass near the gate on his way to Azure, w/o realising it?
No. For starters, he knows where all three gates are. More importantly, though, it negates Roy's huge mistake if Roy would actually have gotten the same answer if he had thought to include Azure City.

charik
2006-07-18, 08:09 PM
If he is presumably going to be nearer that gate AFTER his visit to Azure City, that bodes poorly for Azure City, doesn't it...cause it means he has to survive.
Not quite. It means his phylactery survives. He's already been destroyed once; there's nothing to say Roy won't destroy him again at Azure City.

Drust
2006-07-18, 10:13 PM
*SPOILER* *SPECULATION*

My first post; I slogged through this whole discussion and was surprised to discover that nobody had the same reaction to the comic as I did. Namely:

What if, by virtue of his view of the future, the oracle accidentally or intentionally switched the answers to the Order's questions? Seems a bit far fetched, but if you go to the comic and:
give Durkon Haley's answer;
give V the crows answer;
give Haley V's answer;
give Elan Belkar's answer;
give Belkar Durkon's answer;
and give the crow Elan's answer (by default);
then it seems like everyone get a less non-sensical response to their question.

Equally likely is that, after leaving, the Order remembers all the answers but not which is whose; they could (correctly or incorrectly) reassign answers as I've done above...

Great comic, though, even if I'm totally wrong.
-Drust

charik
2006-07-19, 01:04 AM
then it seems like everyone get a less non-sensical response to their question.
The only remotely "non-sensical response" was the one to Haley's question - and that would be equally vague as an answer to any of the others.

Ing
2006-07-19, 01:06 AM
*SPOILER* *SPECULATION*

My first post; I slogged through this whole discussion and was surprised to discover that nobody had the same reaction to the comic as I did. Namely:

What if, by virtue of his view of the future, the oracle accidentally or intentionally switched the answers to the Order's questions? Seems a bit far fetched, but if you go to the comic and:
give Durkon Haley's answer;
give V the crows answer;
give Haley V's answer;
give Elan Belkar's answer;
give Belkar Durkon's answer;
and give the crow Elan's answer (by default);
then it seems like everyone get a less non-sensical response to their question.

Equally likely is that, after leaving, the Order remembers all the answers but not which is whose; they could (correctly or incorrectly) reassign answers as I've done above...

Great comic, though, even if I'm totally wrong.
-Drust


probably wrong because Post humorously dosn't make sense in the context of Roy's well defined querry

kerberos
2006-07-19, 01:46 AM
Actually it will. American Heritage Dictionary, two of the listed definitions are:
Being last in a series, process, or progression.
The final point; the conclusion.

That's definition number 1 for use as an adjactive (i.e. the primary definition) and number 2 for a noun.

Ultimate means final.


I know, I cosulted a dictionary before posting, but you'll note it says last "in a series, process or progression". That really isn't the case here. You wouldn't normally go around calling younger siblings "the ultimate children of theur parents". At least not solely because they are the last of their parents children. Ultimate definetly implies some sort fo exalted status. The example given in Dictionary.com of "Being last in a series, process, or progression."As the ultimate arbiter of the Constitution, the Supreme Court occupies a central place in our scheme of government”. Which confirms this. the SC isn't just the last arbiter of the Constitution, they're also the highest arbiter of the constitution.

BelkarsDagger
2006-07-19, 01:48 AM
This was also an anticlimax, and was so-so.

kerberos
2006-07-19, 01:55 AM
*SPOILER* *SPECULATION*

My first post; I slogged through this whole discussion and was surprised to discover that nobody had the same reaction to the comic as I did. Namely:

What if, by virtue of his view of the future, the oracle accidentally or intentionally switched the answers to the Order's questions? Seems a bit far fetched, but if you go to the comic and:
give Durkon Haley's answer;
give V the crows answer;
give Haley V's answer;
give Elan Belkar's answer;
give Belkar Durkon's answer;
and give the crow Elan's answer (by default);
then it seems like everyone get a less non-sensical response to their question.

Equally likely is that, after leaving, the Order remembers all the answers but not which is whose; they could (correctly or incorrectly) reassign answers as I've done above...

Great comic, though, even if I'm totally wrong.
-Drust

Doesn't work. Posthumously isn't a sensial answer to Belkars question. Neither does Harley's answer apply to Durkon's question, he's asking for a description of his return, which posthumously is, not advice on how to achieve it.

Arian
2006-07-19, 02:04 AM
Ultimate definetly implies some sort fo exalted status

Doesn't have to. In verse scansion, the 'ultimate' syllable of a word is simply the last, the one that comes after the penultimate, which comes after the antepenultimate. :)

- And "ultimately" is a synonym of "finally, in the end".

So it's far from innovative - indeed, it's quite old-fashioned, if anything. :)

Morty
2006-07-19, 03:58 AM
*SPOILER* *SPECULATION*

My first post; I slogged through this whole discussion and was surprised to discover that nobody had the same reaction to the comic as I did. Namely:

What if, by virtue of his view of the future, the oracle accidentally or intentionally switched the answers to the Order's questions? Seems a bit far fetched, but if you go to the comic and:
give Durkon Haley's answer;
give V the crows answer;
give Haley V's answer;
give Elan Belkar's answer;
give Belkar Durkon's answer;
and give the crow Elan's answer (by default);
then it seems like everyone get a less non-sensical response to their question.

Equally likely is that, after leaving, the Order remembers all the answers but not which is whose; they could (correctly or incorrectly) reassign answers as I've done above...

Great comic, though, even if I'm totally wrong.
-Drust
Well, that makes some sense, except for Durkons's question. But I don't think It'll work.

Kamakazee_Gnome
2006-07-19, 06:38 AM
Hmm... Durkon can only return to his land posthumorously? I sense a Raise Dead joke...

I sense that the being in question with V will be the Snarl

Roy's question... that's so much like my gaming group! Questions like that + poorly-done divinations + player stupidity usually equals an apocolipse of some form. Hmm...

Asoon
2006-07-19, 07:39 AM
wasn't there some kind of ruling from the Giant and the moderators that spoilers should only be posted in the spoilers thread?

Aerysil1
2006-07-19, 12:54 PM
So? What happens next?

*pounds table*

Warbanner
2006-07-19, 01:25 PM
Yeah, but probably not the way you're thinking. In OtOoPCs, the dwarven priest makes a rather good argument. After all, Durkon could've gone out for a supply run or to visit his uncle, and when he returned...well, that word says it all. But if they send him away and make him promise never to return until sent for, he won't return. However, it is self-fulfilling in a determination loop kind of way. Consider the likelyhood of bringing doom and destruction back with you after a visit to your uncle, or bringing it back with you after all the high-level conflicts he's gotten himself embroiled in.

Prophecy -> Sent away -> Gained powerful enemies -> Prophecy fulfilled on return
No prophecy -> Not sent away -> No powerful enemies -> Nice visit with uncle :D

Right, so then just exactly the way I was thinking. I read OtOotPCs too. If they were really smart, they'd have just told him the prophecy and ordered him never to leave. He'd have obeyed that order too. But of course, it's ALWAYS the case, (at least traditionally) that self-fulfilling prophecies are such in a determination loop kind of way. What are the odds Oedipus would've killed his dad and married his mum if he'd been raised by them?

Kanashimi
2006-07-19, 02:58 PM
That's the entire moral of the story. No matter what, you cannot avoid fate. Something else would have happened where he ended up killing his dad and marrying his mom.

Deuce
2006-07-19, 02:58 PM
Right, so then just exactly the way I was thinking. I read OtOotPCs too. If they were really smart, they'd have just told him the prophecy and ordered him never to leave. He'd have obeyed that order too. But of course, it's ALWAYS the case, (at least traditionally) that self-fulfilling prophecies are such in a determination loop kind of way. What are the odds Oedipus would've killed his dad and married his mum if he'd been raised by them?



In real life - bloody slim

In a Greek Tragedy - 1:1

You can't duck the threads of fate in Greek Tragedies.

Doug_Lampert
2006-07-19, 03:16 PM
That's the entire moral of the story. No matter what, you cannot avoid fate. Something else would have happened where he ended up killing his dad and marrying his mom.
There's an Aurtherian story where Gawain hears a nasty prophesy, his response is something like, "Either it is a true prophesy in which case there is nothing I can do so I may as well ignore the whole thing, or it's a false prophesy in which case there's nothing I need to do so I may as well ignore the whole thing", and then he gets on with his life and ignores the whole thing.

Good response. Disaster may still happen but at least you didn't cause it by trying to murder an innocent child or exile a faithful and loyal underling....