How much stronger does extra wealth by level make someone?

[Thealtruistorc]

This is something I've wondered about for a while in terms of calculating how powerful characters are and how much leeway you can have in pumping up your players with gear before their strength gets out of hand.

What would happen if one were to double the wealth of a second-level character? Would that increase their fighting capacity to that of a 3rd-level one? Would doing the same for a 15th-level character push them to level 16 fighting abilities, or even up to 17th or 18th level? How much would a character be amped up if they had three or four times the wealth of a normal character of their level?

I'm asking primarily from the perspective of a game designer? How much extra loot can you dump on a character before it pushes them up a level, or two levels, or three?

[Svata]

Depends on the character's class, really. Gear helps some builds more than others.

[Jack_Simth]

This is something I've wondered about for a while in terms of calculating how powerful characters are and how much leeway you can have in pumping up your players with gear before their strength gets out of hand.

What would happen if one were to double the wealth of a second-level character? Would that increase their fighting capacity to that of a 3rd-level one? Would doing the same for a 15th-level character push them to level 16 fighting abilities, or even up to 17th or 18th level? How much would a character be amped up if they had three or four times the wealth of a normal character of their level?

I'm asking primarily from the perspective of a game designer? How much extra loot can you dump on a character before it pushes them up a level, or two levels, or three?

Not sure... if you want to do this "right", you will want to start by making benchmark characters. Take several different classes with reasonably standard builds, and get their PFO/PFD numbers at each level, 1-20.

You then go through them again, this time doubling WBL. Then again, tripling WBL. Then you compare the PFO/PFD numbers, and you should have your answer.

[Florian]

I'm asking primarily from the perspective of a game designer? How much extra loot can you dump on a character before it pushes them up a level, or two levels, or three?

It´s more a factor of "what" than "how much". Handing out items with a linear progression (ex: +2 sword instead of +1 sword) changes very little. Items that allow to "jump ahead in level" will have profound changes (ex: having a fully charged Wand of Restoration from early on will take the edge off a lot of monsters as you don´t have to fear damage/drain), as is having access to items that let you circumvent slot choices (ex: Cord of Stubborn resolves _and_ having a fully charged Wand of Bull´s Strength).

[Kayblis]

Usually, there are some thresholds depending on class. Any melee/ranged fighter(specially reach-focused ones) with over 16k gp would enjoy Winged Boots and utterly wreck non-flying enemies. The same goes for any roguish character with over 20k, for his Ring of Invisibility. Even casters have those, with metamagic rods like Quicken and such, although less so.

Once you're past this first threshold, money usually just bumps you a few numbers ahead until you reach a possible 2nd threshold, but that's too build-dependant. A straight Fighter/Barbarian could never see a second gain like the one granted by flight, while a Greater Invisibility Ring coupled with some detection immunities can bump a rogue a lot. There's no 100% sure answer for "how far is his money pushing him" unless you give more info on character specifics.

[Mole]

Depends on the campaign setting. Specifically the ease of converting wealth to useful magic items.
If players can pick and chose the perfect kit for their circumstances then wealth will lead to a very significant increase in power as they carefully mitigate their vulnerabilities and/or augment their strengths, whether as individuals or as a party collectively.
Hard to quantify in CR terms though.

[martixy]

It also depends on how WBL is spread.

Usually in organic play it's okay to bump WBL because you end up with characters where that wealth is spread over many neat, but in-tier items. But sinking all of the gold into that one item that lets you just up a tier earlier has more potential to cause a DM headaches.
(By tier here I don't mean class tiers, but tiers of play - the natural breakpoints where certain things like fly, restoration, mind blank, etc. come into play.)

For example, as noted with a fighter, with double WBL he can comfortably gain access to a pair of Winged boots at L5, while at base WBL he'd have to sacrifice most of his WBL to achieve the same feat, making him woefully ineffective in many circumstances.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Well, if you consider a party with a crafter has essentially double their WBL, I would say up to that is easily handled by the system. WBL should be a spectrum, I take the given value as a minimum.

[unseenmage]

I've seen it said that infinite wealth only bumps a character by an effective +7 LA.

It has been my experience that the above is completely bogus given system mastery and player ingenuity.
(I was wrecking nigh epic baddies at lvl 12 with infinite wealth once upon a time.)

Then again, given system mastery and player ingenuity even regular WBL rarely keeps the true optimizers in check.

[Spore]

Depends on the character's class, really. Gear helps some builds more than others.

Exactly. You cannot pinpoint this in a vacuum. But a magicless melee fighter has a bigger advantage from Boots of Speed than a supporting Wizard. But I'd say it quickly adds 1-3 levels to ECL. Imagine the Alchemist class for one second. Its main schtick after the Infusion Discovery is providing free fully levelled potions for the whole party.

Having an Invisibility Potion, an Antidote or a Fire Breath attack on the tanky Paladin is worth much. So much that is worth to have the features of half a class revolve around that. Same with Artificers.

[Felyndiira]

I've seen it said that infinite wealth only bumps a character by an effective +7 LA.

It has been my experience that the above is completely bogus given system mastery and player ingenuity.
(I was wrecking nigh epic baddies at lvl 12 with infinite wealth once upon a time.)

To be fair, it's fairly easy to prove the above false. Anyone can wreck a campaign by buying 90210 wish scrolls and candles of invocation with bottomless wealth.

The +7 LA is, I believe, because most people believe Paizo's whole 'big 6' theory - stipulating that for some reason, a +1 to AC is more desirable than almost any other item even at a 18,000 gold price range.

[Svata]

Well, yes, you can abuse Wish and become arbitrarily powerful. Everyone knows that. So we're naturally assuming the OP means without using that.

[Calthropstu]

Wish is decidedly weaker than in 3.5 actually in pf. Given infinite wbl, I would forgo wish (except to +5 all my ability scores) completely and instead pick up items to throw my charisma check into irresistable levels so as to bind thousands of outsiders. If truly infinite, however, I would get a ring of "cast all spells at will with dc = (arbitrarily high). As a swift OR standard action."

[upho]

This is something I've wondered about for a while in terms of calculating how powerful characters are and how much leeway you can have in pumping up your players with gear before their strength gets out of hand.

What would happen if one were to double the wealth of a second-level character? Would that increase their fighting capacity to that of a 3rd-level one? Would doing the same for a 15th-level character push them to level 16 fighting abilities, or even up to 17th or 18th level? How much would a character be amped up if they had three or four times the wealth of a normal character of their level?

I'm asking primarily from the perspective of a game designer? How much extra loot can you dump on a character before it pushes them up a level, or two levels, or three?1. Misleading/inaccurate but easy-to-use answer: According to the Paizo design team, generally speaking the difference between PC WBL and NPC WBL is the primary reason a NPC has a CR = level -1, while the same character as a PC has a CR = level:
A classed NPC encountered with no gear should have his CR reduced by 1 (provided that loss of gear actually hampers the NPC), while a classed NPC that instead has gear equivalent to that of a PC (as listed on Table: Character Wealth by Level) has a CR of 1 higher than his actual CR.Extrapolating the math of this guideline, a PC with standard WBL effectively gains the equivalent of an additional level if the PC's wealth increases by an amount equal to (PC WBL of level +1) - (NPC WBL of level +1).

So if you for example give a 10th level PC 69,250 gp more than the 62,000 gp he should have according WBL, his power should increase by an amount equivalent to that of giving him an additional class level (CR = actual level +1).

(My 3.5-fu is too rusty for me to say with any certainty that this would also be in line with the recommendations in the DMG, but I'd guess so.)

2. True/accurate but difficult-to-use answer:
You cannot pinpoint this in a vacuum.

But of course, if you trust the CR system to provide a measure of power sufficiently accurate for you to build appropriate encounters (and assign their XP value) for the PCs in your game, I think going with answer #1 is highly unlikely to cause any noticeable additional issues. (Provided it isn't taken to extremes, such as by giving additional wealth equal to more than say four times the standard WBL.)


The +7 LA is, I believe, because most people believe Paizo's whole 'big 6' theory - stipulating that for some reason, a +1 to AC is more desirable than almost any other item even at a 18,000 gold price range.This. And probably also because most people seem to believe that listed/recommended CR is a sufficiently accurate measure of the relative threat a particular creature/encounter poses for a vast majority of parties/games/groups.

[Svata]

Not really. With infinite WBL wishes you can Pun-Pun without Pazuzu. So there's that.

[unseenmage]

Not really. With infinite WBL wishes you can Pun-Pun without Pazuzu. So there's that.

For my part I ban Wish, Miracle, Genesis, and Gate when utilizing infinite WBL.

Though my point was more that even with regular WBL a clever or well informed player can break the action economy. And it has been my experience thet THAT is the real path to power.

[Florian]

It´s rarely talked about, but PB and WBL are tied together. Everything in PF is designed based on PB15 and standard WBL, it´s suggested to step up WBL for higher PB values, PB20 = x1.5 WBL, PB25 = x2 WBL. That´s meant to simulate that "High Fantasy" and "Epic Fantasy" are suitable high-powered to waltz over any challenge.
The GMG expands upon that by suggesting to adjust the APL with a similar modifier when you don´t want the game to be easier.

[Pugwampy]

Depends if you have access to all the goodies you want and can afford . In theory super magic goodies are super rare .

Assuming yes ? My club had a saying . "You are only half as good as your magic goodies" .



I'm asking primarily from the perspective of a game designer? How much extra loot can you dump on a character before it pushes them up a level, or two levels, or three?

Ohh exact numbers hey ? Dang . If i had to take a very very VERY wild guess I would say for example a dude half equipped +3 magic goodies on his person would be 3 levels stronger . Everything +3 equipped would double their levels in my opinion . Then you also have the classes who are less dependant on goodies ....

[Coretron03]

It´s rarely talked about, but PB and WBL are tied together. Everything in PF is designed based on PB15 and standard WBL, it´s suggested to step up WBL for higher PB values, PB20 = x1.5 WBL, PB25 = x2 WBL. That´s meant to simulate that "High Fantasy" and "Epic Fantasy" are suitable high-powered to waltz over any challenge.
The GMG expands upon that by suggesting to adjust the APL with a similar modifier when you don´t want the game to be easier.

Really? I've never noticed that. Care to point out where it is?

[Felyndiira]

It´s rarely talked about, but PB and WBL are tied together. Everything in PF is designed based on PB15 and standard WBL, it´s suggested to step up WBL for higher PB values, PB20 = x1.5 WBL, PB25 = x2 WBL. That´s meant to simulate that "High Fantasy" and "Epic Fantasy" are suitable high-powered to waltz over any challenge.
The GMG expands upon that by suggesting to adjust the APL with a similar modifier when you don´t want the game to be easier.

The difference between PB15 and PB25 is generally two more stat modifier bonuses for most martials (since most people would use those extra points to adjust a 14 to a 16, or a 16 to an 18). Even when placed in primary stats like STR and CON, this isn't powerful enough to meaningfully affect the campaign.

Casters generally find a way to get 18-20 in their casting stat anyhow, regardless of the point buy.

WBL, on the other hand, can buy versatility. Sure, using a doubled-up WBL to buy 2 more AC (or even an extra +1 on your weapon - as long as it's not agile) won't impact the campaign much if you follow the "big 6", but using it to get a ring of invisibility for a wizard, or flight for the bow fighter, totally will.

[Psyren]

Doubling wealth doesn't just mean more stuff - it means the existing stuff can get stronger without breaking the "50% rule."

As for how much stronger it makes you, it depends on (a) where you started and (b) how much your class benefits from gear. For casters it's going to mean slightly chewier defenses and more consumables. For martials it's likely to mean filling whole other slots and a bigger increase in power relative to where they started.

I would start with the WBL table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement) and see where doubling lands me. At 2nd-level, doubling WBL is not enough to get you to 3rd-level WBL ,so I wouldn't expect a big increase there. But at 15th level, doubling WBL jumps you almost 3 levels. You won't have the class features to match, so it's not perfect, but it should give a rough guideline of where you'll land.

Note that it's totally okay to make the players rich for a while - WBL is a long-term guideline, and can be deviated from (even drastically) in the short run.