After some discussion... book/character help, please.

[ZorroGames]

While ST as a dump stat for a DE fighter makes mechanical sense it makes me twitchy to see an "8" ST fighter.

So help me.

A heroic Fighter character in a book (or movie) with less than normal strength. Who? I am open to being convinced.

Not a Rogue or a Ranger but a Fighter.

Saladin, no.
Richard the Lion hearted, no.
Robin Hood, No. Will Scarlet? It has been since the 1950s that I have read Robin Hood but would he be less than average strength using a longbow? And would Will be a Fighter?
Aragorn? Boromir? Gimli? No.
Rahotep from Shadow Hawk by Norton? No.
Bueller? Oh wait, wrong fiction...

Seriously, point me towards a work where the heroic fighter is weaker than a normal person, please!

Gracias in advance. Even if you add books or movies to my already long list to do.

[nickl_2000]

I see dexterity as a form of strength, just not the raw lift things over your head strength. That being said, an 8 is considered to be on the normal side of things.

Legolas and Indiana Jones. Will from the Ranger's apprentice series (yes I know it says "ranger" in the title, but the dude casts no magic and isn't any good with animals). Another possible argument would be Drizzt Do'Urden

Idon't remember the source material for Robin Hood (the Disney version sticks in my mind most). Where does it say that he has raw strength?


Realistically heroes from fantasy aren't really a good example, I think you would be hard pressed to find a hero from a book/movie/comic that has a single stat that was lower than 12.

[Contrast]

River from Firefly (while I wouldn't necessarily say she was a fighter classwise, she does fit the 'good fighter without being strong' idea).

I don't recall Mat Cauthon from Wheel of Time being shown to be stronger than normal (though I'd still probably put him at a 12 or 14 because as nickl_2000 said, this is fantasy *shrugs*).

Anything which has the wise old elderly mentor who still kicks ass.

TVTropes has a list (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeakButSkilled) though a lot of those examples are only weak in comparison to who they fight (Spiderman, Batman, Captain America, Daredevil, etc. are all strong but they uniformly fight and beat people much stronger than themselves).

Edit - Rurouni Kenshin possibly. I would argue some of the older version of James Bond would probably only have average strength (though probably a little too far to argue below average admittedly).

[Unoriginal]

A heroic Fighter character in a book (or movie) with less than normal strength. Who? I am open to being convinced.

Barristan Selmy, Syrio Forell and Loras Tyrell from A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Throne, for starter. Arguably Katnis from Hunger Games.

The problem with your question is that it's hard to say if a character is weaker than your average human being, or if they're weaker than other fighters of their level.

For exemple, Little Mac in Punch Out! is the character with the less strength compared to all his opponents by a good margin, yet saying that he has no strength at all is not true.

[nickl_2000]

Barristan Selmy, Syrio Forell and Loras Tyrell from A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Throne, for starter. Arguably Katnis from Hunger Games.

The problem with your question is that it's hard to say if a character is weaker than your average human being, or if they're weaker than other fighters of their level.

For exemple, Little Mac in Punch Out! is the character with the less strength compared to all his opponents by a good margin, yet saying that he has no strength at all is not true.

Ohh good call on Game of Thrones, you could argue Oberyn Martell as well on that.


Also, ZorroGames, what about your namesake. Wouldn't Zorro fit the bill pretty effectively too? And Inigo Montoya

[Armored Walrus]

Mat Cauthon is a perfect example of a dex fighter. He's fast, doesn't wear armor, is a juggler...

Bruce Lee, although cut, was more fast than strong. yeah he had well defined muscles but that was from being lean, not from body building. He didn't do any strength training.

Luke Skywalker was an amazing fighter, but it had nothing to do with his physical strength. Not to mention old Ben Kenobi.

[Unoriginal]

Bruce Lee, although cut, was more fast than strong. yeah he had well defined muscles but that was from being lean, not from body building. He didn't do any strength training.

To be fair, he had enormous punching strength due to developing those muscles in particular with his martial art training.




Luke Skywalker was an amazing fighter, but it had nothing to do with his physical strength. Not to mention old Ben Kenobi.

Errr, not quite. Luke was pretty strong once he got trained by Yoda (all this running, climbing, etc, in the swamp wasn't for show). As for old Ben Kenobi, well, his combat prowess deteriorated immensely along with his strength and stamina, leaving him way, way weaker than the master he once was.

A better exemple would be Count Dooku, who was an incredible swordsman even in his old age, able to compete with Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time when they were in their prime, despite noting how physically strong Anakin was (especially with the robot arm). Then again, he also used the Force.

[ZorroGames]

Though I have no idea who some of those characters are I stand convinced.

Also, I keep thinking (OD&D, 1st Edition) that average is 9 to 12, my bad. This is 5th Edition...

Never read any GoT books or watched TV (I don't watch TV, simply don't.)

8 ST is not a wimp, 8 IN is not stupid, 8 DE is not a klutz, yada-yada-yada. Got it. Now it just needs to stick.

The sucessful 8 ST fighter hires people to carry his bags of gold, of course :smallwink:

[ZorroGames]

Ohh good call on Game of Thrones, you could argue Oberyn Martell as well on that.


Also, ZorroGames, what about your namesake. Wouldn't Zorro fit the bill pretty effectively too? And Inigo Montoya

Zorro I see a 9 but point taken.

Princess Bride! I see him as a 9 also.

Need to adjust my thinking here.

[Armored Walrus]

To be fair, he had enormous punching strength due to developing those muscles in particular with his martial art training.

True, and a minimum level of brute strength is required to generate a certain amount of force. But a significant amount of the damage done by a punch is dependent upon the technique used to deliver it. Engaging the full body to generate the force (not just the arm and shoulder), the speed at which it's delivered, focusing the force of the punch into the smallest possible area of impact, hitting the softest parts of the body... all of these techniques are taught by martial arts training, and are independent of strength. My point being, someone with lower strength, punching correctly, can do more damage than someone with higher strength with poor form. (within limits)

As for being below average strength, no, Bruce Lee was not, however, the amount of gear he could carry around and still fight effectively by using his chosen fighting style was probably lower than that of someone trained in wearing heavy armor and swinging a large bar of iron at people.

[Armored Walrus]

Need to adjust my thinking here.

Or stop thinking so hard and just take the 8, or the 10, and go play the game ;)

(says they guy that started the INT thread...)

[ZorroGames]

Zorro I see a 9 but point taken.

Princess Bride! I see him as a 9 also.

Need to adjust my thinking here.

Note: Don Diego de La Vega (back when I watched TV) projects a 6 but that is his "actor" feat at work. :smallwink:

[ZorroGames]

Or stop thinking so hard and just take the 8, or the 10, and go play the game ;)

(says they guy that started the INT thread...)

:smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

8 ST is not a wimp, 8 IN is not stupid, 8 DE is not a klutz, yada-yada-yada. Got it. Now it just needs to stick

Well, it's still slightly below average, or on the low end of average.

So, like, the kind of person that would lose an arm wrestling match against a Commoner.


True, and a minimum level of brute strength is required to generate a certain amount of force. But a significant amount of the damage done by a punch is dependent upon the technique used to deliver it. Engaging the full body to generate the force (not just the arm and shoulder), the speed at which it's delivered, focusing the force of the punch into the smallest possible area of impact, hitting the softest parts of the body... all of these techniques are taught by martial arts training, and are independent of strength. My point being, someone with lower strength, punching correctly, can do more damage than someone with higher strength with poor form. (within limits)

As for being below average strength, no, Bruce Lee was not, however, the amount of gear he could carry around and still fight effectively by using his chosen fighting style was probably lower than that of someone trained in wearing heavy armor and swinging a large bar of iron at people.

Oh, sure. Punching is a question of technique mostly.

Funnily enough, developing muscles in boxing or other martial arts mainly helps with *taking* hits rather than with giving them.

[Armored Walrus]

Funnily enough, developing muscles in boxing or other martial arts mainly helps with *taking* hits rather than with giving them.

Which would be your CON stat. Yeah, I learned my lesson by starting the INT thread, don't try to make sense of the abstractions that are D&D stats. You can go punch a nerd that has spent his whole life reading books, can't carry anything, noxious gas makes him retch and gasp, but he'll stand there and take it until you punch him at least a couple dozen times. (If he's been reading those books long enough and killing things with the magic he learned in them)

[Gryndle]

Mat Cauthon is a perfect example of a dex fighter. He's fast, doesn't wear armor, is a juggler...

Bruce Lee, although cut, was more fast than strong. yeah he had well defined muscles but that was from being lean, not from body building. He didn't do any strength training.

Luke Skywalker was an amazing fighter, but it had nothing to do with his physical strength. Not to mention old Ben Kenobi.

that is incorrect about Bruce Lee. He did an enormous amount of conditioning, including strength training. The only difference he had a focus of functional maintainable strength (hence lean muscle mass) than bulky power-lifter burst strength muscle mass.
It is even documented that he experimented with some off-the wall ideas for strength-training/muscle conditioning including attaching electrodes to targeted muscle groups so he could "work them" while he focused on other tasks. I mean, dude was obsessive to the extreme and open to some bizarre ideas especially once he hit Hollywood.

[coolAlias]

Consider it in terms of what you could carry, as well: Str 8 lets you carry up to 40 lbs unencumbered, 41-80 lbs with a slight decrease in movement speed, and up to 120 lbs with a major movement penalty and disadvantage to attack.

I once carried a 90+ lb pack up a steep cliff-side trail that was probably only a quarter mile. At the time, I was in pretty good shape but hadn't specifically trained to carry large loads, and it took nearly everything I had to carry it that pack the entire way up. I wouldn't have made it back down with the same pack, at least not on the same day.

On the opposite side of that, soldiers routinely carry 60-100+ pounds in gear and march all day long in that kit. A commoner (Str 10) can carry 100 pounds and be heavily encumbered; you'd need a Str of 20 to allow you to carry 100 pounds and NOT be heavily encumbered, and yet plenty of soldiers that may not bench much more than 200 pounds are able to do so.

In other words, D&D attributes don't really model reality all that well, so don't worry too much about it. However, if you are playing with encumbrance rules, you will want a higher Str stat. ;)

[ZorroGames]

Yes, Reality is another game...

[Spookykid]

All the asoiaf characters listed in no way are 8 str 20 dex types, they were all knights wearing plate. EDIT: except Syrio Forell
I consider my 8 str 20 dex fighter, like yoda, flipping around like a little maniac.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Edit - Rurouni Kenshin possibly.This was my first thought. It's said later in the series that although Kenshin's fighting style is very strong and he's fast and strong enough to be very effective with it, it was meant for fighters with far more strength and that he's doing a lot of damage to himself in the long run by using techniques that his body doesn't have the raw strength to endure. (Though as I type this, I feel like you could probably interpret "strength" in this context at least partially as Constitution in D&D terms.)


I would argue some of the older version of James Bond would probably only have average strength (though probably a little too far to argue below average admittedly).As was pointed out in another thread recently (I don't recall which, sorry) an 8 in an ability score isn't really that far below average. Having a -1 or +1 in an ability is only a small difference from the dead-center perfect average in terms of what you can expect to accomplish. (Someone with 10 strength could accomplish arbitrary DC 10 task 50% of the time (on a roll of 1-10 out of 20); someone with 8 strength would "only" accomplish the same task 45% of the time (i.e. 9 times out of the 10 that the 10 strength character would have succeeded) so it isn't exactly a drop-off.)

[qube]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeakButSkilled

[coolAlias]

Speaking of Rurouni Kenshin, the live action movies were actually pretty good. Kenshin or any type of kung fu master or Aikido-like character (as in "use the enemy's strength against them") could provide some inspiration.

As already mentioned, Bronn or Syrio Forell from Game of Thrones are probably the most representative of a Dex- vs Str-based fighter; neither is depicted as "weak", but neither are they depicted as strong. Str 8 (more likely Syrio) to 12 (more likely Bronn) would be perfectly fine for either of those characters.

Or you could go Legolas-style, but I get the feeling you were looking more for a melee-oriented character portrayal.

[Klorox]

In 'The Princess Bride' Inigo Montoya and the Man in Black are DEX fighters, not STR.

[Armored Walrus]

that is incorrect about Bruce Lee.

Hmm, I'll admit I haven't studied the guy, that was just something I had read about him.

Ok, how about this? Bilbo Baggins. He was weak, but with the aid of a magic ring and skill with rock throwing, plus a dagger+1 (shortsword +1 in his hands) he fought of an entire nest of giant spiders. Certainly he was below average strength.

[Unoriginal]

Yoda uses the Force to do that

[ZorroGames]

Thanks for all the help!

Unsubscribing to thread. Questions answered.

[GlenSmash!]

In 'The Princess Bride' Inigo Montoya and the Man in Black are DEX fighters, not STR.

In the book, the Man in Black is 80lbs heavier than Inigo. Hard to account for that if not with a strength score. He certainly wasn't fat.

[GlenSmash!]

snip...Legolas and Indiana Jones...Idon't remember the source material for Robin Hood (the Disney version sticks in my mind most). Where does it say that he has raw strength?...

Pulling a Longbow (the kind used in War, not for hunting) takes quite a bit of raw Strength. The equivalent to pulling up a full grown man over and over and over again. It wouldn't make you Arnold Schwarzenegger but it would definitely put you at above average, like say a 12. I get tired of pulling my 50lb bow in a relatively short period, and archers were using bows that were 3+ times Heavier than that for much longer periods of time.

Since the game mechanics don't support this, it's totally reasonable to dump strength on an Archer, but when I think of Legolas or Robin Hood, I can't help but envision them as having impressive upper body musculature.

[Contrast]

As was pointed out in another thread recently (I don't recall which, sorry) an 8 in an ability score isn't really that far below average. Having a -1 or +1 in an ability is only a small difference from the dead-center perfect average in terms of what you can expect to accomplish. (Someone with 10 strength could accomplish arbitrary DC 10 task 50% of the time (on a roll of 1-10 out of 20); someone with 8 strength would "only" accomplish the same task 45% of the time (i.e. 9 times out of the 10 that the 10 strength character would have succeeded) so it isn't exactly a drop-off.)

I see what you're saying and I agree there's not that much difference between the two but even then I could accept an argument for a 10, but an 8? Lots of things about him suggest he's only of middling strength for someone of his profession but I don't think anything really suggests actual weakness in that regard. He wins most of his grapples with faceless mooks (in game terms, proficiency giving him the edge) but losses to the Jawses and the like (who have natural aptitude plus proficiency).

The main issue here is that a lot of protagonists are simply heroic - they don't have to have dump stats in order to be good at something else in the same way an RPG character does.

Edit -


Hmm, I'll admit I haven't studied the guy, that was just something I had read about him.

Ok, how about this? Bilbo Baggins. He was weak, but with the aid of a magic ring and skill with rock throwing, plus a dagger+1 (shortsword +1 in his hands) he fought of an entire nest of giant spiders. Certainly he was below average strength.

This goes for some other suggestions people have made too, OP did ask for examples of people who would normally be considered fighters - not just examples of dex based characters. If I was channeling Bilbo as inspiration for a character, fighter would not be the class I would chose.

Edit 2 - Ha, just occured to me one of my suggestions, River Tam from Firefly would probably be best represented by a dexbarian. Never thought I'd actually think maining dex as a barbarian could feel appropriate :smalltongue:

[Klorox]

In the book, the Man in Black is 80lbs heavier than Inigo. Hard to account for that if not with a strength score. He certainly wasn't fat.

Stronger perhaps, but he's got a lot more DEX than STR.

Extra weight/size could easily be covered by CON as well.