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View Full Version : DM Help Domination, Manipulation, and Magical Control at the Game Table.



Steampunkette
2017-06-26, 01:44 PM
Foreword
This thread is meant to be a serious discussion
about the social reactions and ethical considerations
of using Enchantment Effects in a standard fantasy
setting for personal gain and a somewhat broader
touchstone of rape culture in D&D. If this makes
you uncomfortable, I apologize in advance.
TWs: Abuse, Sexual Assault, Violence


1) Outlining the Problem

In the game Dungeons and Dragons there are a finite number of ways to solve the problems provided by a DM within the framework of the rules. Generally speaking the player's choice will involve subterfuge, violence, social grace, or direct manipulation via enchantment. An example situation might include getting past a guard at a gate. They could kill him, or render him unconscious, they could sneak past or attempt to bribe him. Or they could use an Enchantment Spell to force his compliance, render him unconscious, or distract him so that they can slip past.

There has been much discussion of the tendency of players to engage full Murder-Hobo, and the appropriate DM response for such an issue, but as things slip into the more Mystical there's been less discussion on the matter with the rough presumption that Enchantment just "Works" with very little if any repercussions provided at a later date.

But within, say, Faerun there would certainly be such repercussions. The setting has been so highly magical that evil wizards from the lands of Thay were able to open up Mystical Enclaves where they sold magic items to people but specifically would not sell items used for large scale destruction, with the example being a Wand of Fireball, or items that could easily be used for criminal purposes, like a Wand of Charm Person. Clearly they understand that a person might use an Enchantment spell to commit a crime, at the least...

But it also implies that there's an understanding that spells like Charm Person exist. Where a person's actions might be excused while under the effect of an Enchantment spell. After all, they had no control over themselves while Dominated by the Mind Flayer and could not be held responsible for the things they were forced to do before the Illithid was destroyed, no?

And if a person lacks Control, they must similarly lack Consent within the eyes of the Law.

But how does this impact characterization, gameplay, story, and the consequences of a character's actions?


2) Discussing the Acts and Circumstances

The first thing we must consider in this discussion are the Acts themselves and the circumstances in which they occur. So let's look at the most common spells which affect people's control over themselves.

Cantrips: Friends

The Friends spell temporarily gives you advantage on social skill checks against the target. The spell lists that the target cannot be hostile toward you at the outset, but immediately -becomes- hostile afterward. This hostility is not a compulsion effect, as the spell has ended, and is open ended with no set duration. This is our first glimpse into the "Truth" of enchantment effects, that they temporarily strip control and consent but do not somehow mollify the target's emotional or psychological trauma at having that control taken away.

That isn't to say the spell cannot be used for good. Far from it, in fact, when the Warlock or Bard uses the Friends spell to convince the cultist guarding the soon-to-be-sacrificed townsfolk to release said townsfolk into her custody, avoiding violence and possible loss of innocent life. But one must judge the circumstances appropriately, as using it to convince a stingy merchant to sell you an important item for someone else's safety at a significant discount serves only to limit the amount of money you spend at the cost of stripping away another person's free will.

1st level spells: Charm Person, Command

Charm Person is perhaps the earliest and most available of these somewhat dangerous spells. While Friends lasts only a minute and simply grants advantage to convincing a person of something, Charm Person directly alters your target's priorities. Suddenly you are a warmly regarded friend, someone the target would never think to harm in any serious manner. Someone they'd help out if they could. This spell may seem innocuous, but it faces many of the same issues as Friends with an extended duration, up to an hour, and a much more loose interpretation of what it can do.

Certainly a Charm Person spell can get you out of a spot of trouble by making the Orc Chieftain view you as an ally rather than an enemy. But it could also be used in a Tavern to violate people's consent much more cheaply and effectively than spending a bunch of gold on expensive drinks... Someone who will remember you charmed them, after the fact.

Command seems much simpler. Much easier. Because of its limited command options and short duration the ethical considerations seem tiny. Until you command someone to "Drop" their baby. Or the rope supporting the rest of their adventuring company. Imagine the soul-destroying guilt that would come from such an act, even being aware that someone else compelled the act, you were the one who dropped your friends/lover/child/etc to their doom...

2nd level spells: Calm Emotions, Hold Person, Suggestion

Calm Emotions seems like a no-brainer in its ethical considerations. You're not -really- harming someone, you're just calming them down. Breaking Charm and Frighten effects even seems pretty noble, to be honest! But... it can also change how the target feels about others. Rendering them Neutral to someone they're Hostile towards. And while it can be used to save an innocent life, it can also Gaslight the heck out of a character by making them no longer angry at someone who has done something harmful to them, and with successive casts and appropriately manipulating conversation be used to cause someone to question their emotions completely...

Hold Person is, perhaps, the most existentially frightening Enchantment spell below the power of Domination effects. You become a prisoner in your own body on someone else's command. You can't even move to defend yourself. A form of paralysis so complete as to render you helpless without the associated numbness and unawareness of surroundings. If the spell rendered your body numb to sensation you would simply collapse, like any person suffering medical paralysis. Instead you are forced to remain still as other people harm you, feeling everything and unable to do anything about it. While typically used in Combat, which is a horrifying prospect as you're forced to allow people to tear you apart, it could easily be used in other venues to horrid effect.

The Suggestion spell is, similar to Command, insidious in its abuses. The example given in the book is to command a knight to give her horse to the first beggar she sees within 8 hours. But it could just as easily be used to strip a person's consent to sexual activity, force them to commit murder, or even put them into a situation of particularly precarious survival. But even at it's kindest and least vile use, you're still using a spell that compels a person to act independent of what they want. To give away their possessions or act as your messenger or other servant.

4th level spells: Compulsion

Perhaps the least offensive of the Enchantment effects, Compulsion forces the target to move in a direction horizontal to yourself. It still compels the person to expend themselves suiting your whims of where they should stand or go like the Pied Piper of Hamlin, but at least it doesn't open itself up to other more psychologically damaging options. Still, being forced to walk away while someone you care about is being harmed, even if you're able to scream and cry and beg for someone to help them, is something that would likely cause serious psychological trauma.

5th level spells: Dominate Person, Modify Memory

And here we have earliest entries into the most truly terrifying spells available... Dominate Person being the first. With this spell, you can force a target into complete compliance with your wishes by making demands the target must fulfill, or by taking direct Psychic control over the person's body to force their actions directly. There may be situations where this spell could cause more good than harm, perhaps by forcing the leader of a band of marauders to tell his men to cease their pillaging and plunder. But the less savory versions and the psychological trauma it will cause likely outweigh any potential positive use of this spell. To completely lose control of yourself, forced to comply with someone else's edicts without even the ability to -attempt- resistance... Truly a horrific spell.

Modify Memory is the Gaslighter's perfect spell. It doesn't physically cause any damage, but it allows you to completely rewrite your target's perception of an event in the past 24 hours. It also has the ability to enhance a memory that already exists, which is certainly useful for consenting individuals to try and recover important details of some event... It's a spell that certainly has ethical and unethical uses.

8th level spells: Feeblemind
The Ethical considerations of rendering someone's mental state into that of near-catatonia, incapable of understanding language or even remembering one's self for extremely extended periods of time are very simple: You have essentially murdered the person and left his body moving around in a nearly helpless state. The only saving grace of this spell, if it can be called that, is in the chance that the target might recover their mind at the end of each month after the casting of the spell. This spell should be reserved for Villains and for Governmental use on irredeemable criminals when they consider Death to be a step too far...


There are some spells I didn't list, here. Tasha's Laughter or the Sleep spell, for example. These spells have fairly limited ability to be abused in a psychologically damaging manner or to compromise a person's consent. These spells were left aside in favor of a more narrow approach to direct toward the core topic. Other spells, like Mass Suggestion and Dominate Monster, were left out simply because they were just expansions on the power of already mentioned spells to allow them to target more creatures, more variety of creatures, or extend the duration.

Of note, spells like Dominate Beast were left out because animals are typically not viewed with in the same social lens as people, not out of dismissal of validity.


3) Consequences

What are the likely repercussions of these acts in transgression? For several of them, Hold Person for example, the repercussions will be short-lived as the person experiencing them will almost certainly be killed by the caster of the spell and their allies. But some of them have much longer lasting implications.

A character who has been dominated, for example, is very likely to have experienced some deep psychological trauma, even if the actions they were forced to perform seem fairly mundane. A man forced to walk across the room and stare at the corner while the spell's caster goes about their business in the room is entirely likely to experience an existential crisis or psychotic breakdown as he struggles to turn, to move, to do anything but can't control himself. It's certainly true that he won't feel nearly as much trauma as a man forced to stand by and watch his loved ones be tortured to death, unable to intervene. Or as much trauma as a man forced to perform sexual acts. But the trauma will still be there.

This remains true throughout any of the above listed spells. Even the simple "Command" spell with its short-term compulsion to simply prostrate one's self, for example, is likely to chip away at a person's sense of personal autonomy in body and in thought.

Alongside the trauma comes anger, pain, doubt, fear, and many other emotions that might result in a person reacting or lashing out. Characters who have suffered humiliating lapses of control might lash out at authority figures or may become subservient for fear that noncompliance might result in another complete loss of control. Violence and harm, internalized or externalized, are likely to be common as people test their control over themselves and others. Someone who may have been forced to harm themselves, or to allow harm to come to themselves, may seek out further harm under their own directives, on their own terms, or simply to relive the experience as closely as they can in order to understand it, and their feelings, better.

Use the concept of trauma to determine the victim's future actions and outlook. They may even seek to become a powerful Enchanter in order to inflict that control on others as a way to gain a misguided sense of personal control, spreading the harm farther.


4) Societal Response

Any society which has existed in a world where this type of magic exists for more than a few generations has, very likely, seen every possible permutation on the magic's various abuses. From Charming bar wenches into midnight orgies or Charming Bar Wenches fishing for better tips, every aspect of these abuses is likely to be catalogued in some record of criminal activity and the recognition of loss of control and consent is likely to be in place. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, magical coercion into sexual acts is likely viewed as particularly vile form of rape and punished as such.

Divination spells and some Enchantments, such as Circle of Truth, are likely to be employed in ferreting out the truth of the matter, should an accusation be levied. Particularly when it comes to Philanderers and Adulterers claiming to be enchanted to assuage their spouse's wrath at their cheating ways. More to the point, however, is the social response.

Social response is likely to be weighted fairly heavily in favor of the Wealthy or the Titled, and fairly heavily against the Wanderer and Recluse. An Adventurer known for being an Enchanter is likely to be viewed as a dangerous criminal threat, while the local noble who uses Charm Spells to loosen up the common girls will be given a nigh infinite number of free passes on his abuse so long as his victims are politically powerless.

Similarly, such spells when used against lower members of society, or enemies aggressive to the society, are very likely to be viewed as, at worst, socially acceptable. Using Dominate Monster to force the Orcish Horde's pet Hill Giant to crush their forces the orcish leader under a greatclub is liable to be lauded as a noble use of the spell. Even if one were to use Modify Memory to engage in a rewriting of an enemy's recent history to force compliance would be seen as acceptable, I'm sure.

But that still places the Enchanter about town in a precarious position. People who have been Charmed or Dominated, Suggested or Commanded, are very unlikely to have anything to do with such a person. Those in power who have felt such horrible effects, or seen their results upon the common folk, are likely to scrutinize every act for signs of mystical compulsion. And even a spurious accusation is liable to hold far more weight in such a case...

Warlocks are often viewed with disdain for those the serve. Enchanters should often be viewed with disdain for those who have abused the same power. An Evoker may be able to blow up a village, but an Enchanter will leave the whole town alive and psychologically scarred...


5) Dealing with "That Player"

At some point or another you may be forced to deal with "That Player". The player who has no consideration of the consequences of using Enchantment effects. One who argues "At least I didn't kill her!" when confronted with the moral and ethical implications of their actions, or who has no issue using Suggestion on another PC to get his way. So to try and help you deal with "That Player" in advance, here are some helpful tips and guidelines.

1) Table Rule. One of the most important discussions at a table typically revolves around PvP as it's likely to happen to nearly any group at least once or twice. Many groups have an open policy on PvP so long as it's left on the table, which works for many groups and if it works for you that's great! But I've found that at a table with That Player it's best to make a table rule about using enchantments to affect other party members and have the rule be "Never." I have seen female gamers leave tables permanently when some That Player uses Charm and Dominate to rape their character because he thinks it's funny. This is the last thing the hobby needs: Less players.

2) The neutral approach. Allow That Player to dig their own proverbial grave. After the act of rape is finished ask That Player what their intent is "After raping (NPC Name/Gender goes here)". Do not sugar coat it. Do not vilify That Player for doing it. State it as a matter of fact almost in passing, but have the victim's response in mind. The same goes for otherwise stripping a person's autonomy away. A character who is Held, defenseless, and is cut down is fairly clearly Murdered, after all.

3) If the table has players who are squeamish or uncomfortable with such acts, or with the idea of their character being called a rapist for committing an act of rape, feel free to enact House or Table rules of conduct that keep such things from happening. The Neutral Approach will often lead to this step, which gives you the chance to discuss the ethical ramifications and make appropriate changes to the story to handle the discomfort.

4) If all else fails, deal with it appropriately. A person who routinely uses Enchantment effects on monsters to stop their attacks is probably going to be treated with praise among friends and immediate bodily harm amongst enemies. An Enchanter in a town should likely be shunned to some degree. Perhaps approached by criminal elements of society hoping to make use of their talents, or otherwise exposed to the results of their actions.

Regardless of which methods you use, it's always good to truly look at the circumstances revolving around this ethically questionable use of magic.

And if anyone else has rules or suggestions for how players and DMs can deal with these sorts of issues, please feel free to post them, here!

mgshamster
2017-06-26, 02:03 PM
Wow. Excellent write up, Steampunkette.

Unoriginal
2017-06-26, 02:22 PM
Errr...

While I consider that using enchantement spells against people to take advantage of them should be consider as criminally reprehensible as if the caster used an attack spell on them, that enchanters can be considered as scary than any casters by the people within the setting (if not more, depending on whom), and that players and PCs who think mind-affecting magic is harmless are wrong, I disagree with you about the psychological trauma those spells would create.

Don't get me wrong, certainly that the mind-affecting spells can be terrifying to experience, and the guilt of your actions while mind-controlled can have a major effect, but I don't think it'd be that different that any other method of coercion.

Like, the man forced to walk across his room and having to stare in the corner would probably find the experience unpleasant, but I don't think that it'll affect him more than if a wizard cast Hold Person on him to force him to stand in the corner, or if a Sorcerer threatened to kill him with a Fireball if he stopped staring in that corner, or if a Rogue forced the man in the corner with a dagger on his throat and threatened to kill him if the man even tried to turn his head.

All in all, pretty scary experiences, but the trauma isn't dependent on the mind control being there or not, and some people would have little to no trauma from it, while others with different dispositions would react with massive shock and long term consequences (as reaction to situations depends largely on the person).

Same way that the man forced to see his wife be tortured by a Domination spell would probably feel the same if he was chained to the floor in a way he couldn't escape.

So I'd say the consequences are dependent on the persons involved and the kind of abuse, not the methods by which the persons were coerced/forced to do/stopped from doing something.

The only consequences specific to mind-affecting effects would be that some people would react to it by second-guessing themselves and wondering if X action or X thought was their own or if it was something forced into their mind. But not everyone would react like that, and the people who'd react like that most likely already would have had problems with their confidence or sense of self even before the spells.

The social consequences would be, then, that the Enchanters would be treated like any individual who can utterly ruin one's life without one being able to fight back if they wish so, just like pretty much all adventurers. Some people would not care about this disparity in their respective personal powers, others would be very scared.


To summarize: mind-affecting spells and other magic effects should be treated with the same gravity than attack spells, and it should be acknowledged by characters and players alike.

Corran
2017-06-26, 02:28 PM
Personally, I dont think it is a real issue. I kind of see it much like the ''D&D is the Satan's game'' crusade from several years ago.

Basically, it's an issue for session 0, and that's about it. Does it make others at the table uncomfortable? If yes (for whatever reason), then dont do it. If not, go nuts if you want to. Simple as that. You are playing a made-up character in a made-up world. You are playing a role. If that role suggests to do unspeakably immoral and/or violent things, and no one at the table takes an issue, then it's fine. It is not that playing an evil D&D character will make you an evil person, or if you are playing a noble D&D character you'll become a better person. In the end it's a matter of taste and social convention.

Think of movies or theater. Does a movie or play have to focus only on happy concepts not touch horrible or taboo subjects? Art and imagination need not be confined, as long as they dont do any actual harm (and at least for imagination, that's pretty much self-explanatory). Hurting sensitivities or not being to one's liking does not constitute a harm, we are all entitled to our preferences afterall (and to not be misinterpreted, I emphasize again on the ''no harm'' part). Are there movies I find disgusting? Of course there are, that means that I wont watch them and that I expect my friends to take into account these preferences when we gather together to watch a movie. But I dont find it concerning if someone else has a different taste than my own (even if I'm appauled by it). Same goes for a D&D campaign.

ps: Of course, it goes without saying that if minors are involved, then obviously you dont do any crap of that sort (or of whatever other sort).

Gryndle
2017-06-26, 02:44 PM
nicely done. It is definitely something to consider, when deciding how the outside world thinks of the characters. I think the shock at the loss of self control from certain magic, and to a lesser extent certain skills and tactics, is often overlooked and underrated. Ofcourse I believe the trauma of experiencing any of the multitude of horrible events that tend to drive D&D games and stories is often downplayed or overlooked entirely, maybe even more for NPCs than PCs.

Loss of self control has its own form of trauma. Take a person who has had their will ripped from them by magic, even momentarily, and then ALSO expose them to the trauma of a violent event. It isn't that one makes the other worse, it is that the individual experiences BOTH traumas, must then process both traumas individually and as to how the two traumas interact with each other.

The most terrifying word in the English language to me is "helpless." A distant second is "mother-in-law"

Steampunkette
2017-06-26, 02:44 PM
Corran... I really don't understand what you're arguing against, there. I'm not saying "D&D Causes Rape!" or otherwise attempting to vilify the game, only offer DMing advice for dealing with an issue that comes up at game tables. Your comments on censorship of gaming kind of... make no sense. Like you're expecting me to try and ban mind controlling spells from every table in the world or something.

Unoriginal: I'm not saying these effects are intrinsically worse than (Insert other horrible thing here). I'm saying that they are also horrifying. I do, however, think there would be a particularly significant psychological trauma in losing control of your body/mind, specifically when it's someone else -taking- that control from you. People who wind up paralyzed or otherwise unable to control parts of their body often deal with severe emotional stress, depression, and other attendant issues, after all. I don't think it would be lessened in the knowledge that someone ELSE is in control of your actions. Rather the opposite.

Zanos
2017-06-26, 02:45 PM
I have seen female gamers leave tables permanently when some That Player uses Charm and Dominate to rape their character because he thinks it's funny. This is the last thing the hobby needs: Less players.
You shouldn't play with those people. You can't create enough rules to turn bad players into good ones. I have never had this problem at any of my tables because I don't keep players who are garbage. If you have friends who think using mind control spells to rape PCs at your table is kosher, you shouldn't be friends with them anymore.


To summarize: mind-affecting spells and other magic effects should be treated with the same gravity than attack spells, and it should be acknowledged by characters and players alike.
I agree. Would probably fall under the same criminal punishment as using violence to coerce.

Honestly in a setting like Faerun where towns are burnt by demons and Red Wizards and Drow and Illithids and Epic Spellcasters and armies of the risen dead and any adventurers in the high single to low double digits has to face down abominations four times a day PTSD from anything that isn't insanely major is kind of ridiculous. If they were going to get PTSD everyone in the setting would be a fractured mess by the time they were level 10. Play CoC for that.

strangebloke
2017-06-26, 02:58 PM
Woof there's a lot of material to work through here.

Ok, so first thing to say, regarding societal (and even personal) consequences: it's setting dependent.

Eberron is not Faerun is not Spelljammer. Furthermore, Waterdeep is not Luskan is not Mirabar.

Second thing to say is: It probably changes less than you think.

While using magic to do evil is arguably worse, I doubt that it will really be any different in the eyes of the law. (except in that its harder to prove.) So if you could count on a given society not caring about the rape of some peasant wench, they're not going to care about the magical rape of some peasant wench.

In my custom settings, magic is synonymous with royalty. Kings that aren't casters are looking to find queens that are, and are seeking powerful, trustworthy, magical retainers and tutors. For this reason, magical deprivation of free will is only rarely an issue among the nobility. (too easy to get caught)

Among their 'lessers'... yeah, there is abuse everywhere. Good religious sorts condemn it of course, but without really good forensic spells (which have to be custom-made) there's simply no capacity to prove even a minor spellcaster as being this sort of person. Any clerical action is therefore clandestine.

Nobles who are known to do this are probably seen as huge embarrassments, if not for the right reasons. Having a mistress is one thing. Expending valuable spells to get temporary new mistresses is another. While not just use coin like everyone else? The exchange rate is much better!

For bards, its a different story. Bard colleges all condemn this kind of tomfoolery, to the extent that they can. They don't want their college's rep damaged by some untrustworthy skive raping his way across the seven kingdoms. Individual bards are fairly well-behaved anyway, since they tend to not really have trouble 'pitching woo,' and since most bards depend on the good will of the people they visit anyway. (getting a mob after you because you decided to magically coerce that guy is bad for business) If magical coercion happens, it's much more likely to be used to distract someone from a pickpocket, or to make a crowd feel extra generous. Nasty, of course, but clearly illegal and not all that different from usual scams.

The ones that are going to be the worst offenders here are undoubtedly warlocks. Their patrons definitely approve of these crimes. Then again, there's a decent chance that the mob was after them anyway, for purely superstitious reasons.

Ultimately, if you're a powerful person, there are tons of ways to get a mistress/mister. Power itself is an aphrodisiac, and money and raw charisma go a long way. So I don't think that these sorts of issues are actually all that common. Consequently, there's NO reason for a player to do these sorts of things.

As to the personal reaction... that's easy enough to anticipate. Temporarily supressing someone's will is either going to break them or piss them off royally or both. For a lot of peasants, sadly, they're probably broken already. The spells might almost make it easier, due to less violence.

Ech. This is disgusting to think about.

As to players?

At my table, the other characters would despise such a character. I'd roll a d100 every time he did something like this, that someone would figure it out. After that? It's angry mob time. I have Farmer Giles get up at the head of this mob, ranting about how they want the head of this man on a pike. I'd give them the stats of the cult fanatic to boot. Adventurers just can't get away with crap the way nobles would.

At my table, the other players would probably abandon the guy to his fate. Heck, even though I could see some of the guys at my table pulling this kind of nonsense, they'd be perfectly ok with this as an ending to their character's run.

Another important note: Don't describe ****. Don't ever give them anything more than, 'you did the do, the person is well and truly raped.' in a completely humorless monotone. Allow a pregnant pause as you roll those percentile die.

PS: you didn't even touch upon what for me is the most common issue. Summoning.

ZorroGames
2017-06-26, 02:59 PM
And this is why I told players in early years as a DM: Actions have consequences. Murder people wantonly and eventually "powerful agents of the realm" will be looking for you in a Lawful/X, X/Good, or even Neutral society. Because of minors at the adjoining tables (and because my first wife aborted a child from rape) I always simply said, "No sexual abuse at this table. Period."

Never had a player bring the subject up but then people in the club knew "local history" so some jerks may have been warned off before sitting at my table.

I try and remember "It is a game," but some subjects that should seem obvious apparently aren't to some people.

I am sure Goblins see heroes as murderhoboes but this is not a game where species hatred is glossed over, is it? Some issues are gameable but Rape, not so much.

TBH, some of the original post seems to be carrying this issue to the worst possible limits. I assure you PSYOPS are seen negatively by some but in war the rules are different. Unless your world states otherwise the Geneva Accords do not exist and torture is possibly seen different in even "lawful" cultures.

How far (or if) do you want to project 21st century views on a fantasy medieval game? I agree with Rape (but I would, right?) but the use of spells such as suggesstion or domination itself in the game depends entirely, IMO, on the session 0 conversations and the role of the characters in the game.

Consequences always but some options should not always be allowed in game world purview.

Corran
2017-06-26, 03:00 PM
Corran... I really don't understand what you're arguing against, there. I'm not saying "D&D Causes Rape!" or otherwise attempting to vilify the game, only offer DMing advice for dealing with an issue that comes up at game tables. Your comments on censorship of gaming kind of... make no sense. Like you're expecting me to try and ban mind controlling spells from every table in the world or something.

Apologies then, assumed that was this thread about (just read the small letters at the top and had in my mind the other thread and the what was being argued there. My bad (that's what I get when I dont read the whole thread:smallredface:). Going back to actually read it and potentially contribute. Carry on...

Gryndle
2017-06-26, 03:02 PM
You shouldn't play with those people. You can't create enough rules to turn bad players into good ones. I have never had this problem at any of my tables because I don't keep players who are garbage. If you have friends who think using mind control spells to rape PCs at your table is kosher, you shouldn't be friends with them anymore.


I agree. Would probably fall under the same criminal punishment as using violence to coerce.

Honestly in a setting like Faerun where towns are burnt by demons and Red Wizards and Drow and Illithids and Epic Spellcasters and armies of the risen dead and any adventurers in the high single to low double digits has to face down abominations four times a day PTSD from anything that isn't insanely major is kind of ridiculous. If they were going to get PTSD everyone in the setting would be a fractured mess by the time they were level 10. Play CoC for that.

eh, being traumatized by an event and developing PTSD isn't exactly the same thing. PTSD doesn't have to make you a "fractured mess". It could be argued that based on common D&D tropes, and common PC behaviors that most adventurers do in fact suffer from "PTSD" IF you look at it in its most simplistic representation.

Both I and one of my closest friends have been diagnosed with PTSD. His from combat in the military. Mine from private experiences. We both have radically different symptoms, different treatment needs and both live fairly normal lives. neither of us are "fractured messes." He for example still looks for potential IEDs and snipers everywhere he goes. Me, I don't trust anyone I don't know well, and have no flight reflex, if exposed to something I perceive as a threat, I have an overwhelming FIGHT response.
For example, last summer we had a black rat snake get into our house, in our bedroom. Scared the crap out of my wife. Me, I worked at a zoo for 14 years, I love pretty much all animals except for spiders, ticks and flees.
I gather what I think I will need to get the snake out. A stick to distract him and a chain mail glove on the other hand to grab him. My intent was to relocate him. But I startled the little guy, and he struck towards my face instead of toward the stick as I had expected. Even though I was well out of range, it scared me. I snatched it out of the air and had crushed it before I had time to think. I felt like crap. But I still couldn't release my grip for several minutes.
Maybe a little messed up, but far from fractured.

Renduaz
2017-06-26, 03:05 PM
I'd take the neutral approach. I think that we actually do need less players who are sensitive about their characters, and that the "perpetrators" of certain actions should also not be particularly surprised or care much if their characters eventually succumb to similar effects or retribution, with the exclusion of a campaign in which it is agreed not to harm party members in general, since I don't really care for the various separations.

By the way, you should check out Philter of Love. It's great.

Zanos
2017-06-26, 03:07 PM
eh, being traumatized by an event and developing PTSD isn't exactly the same thing. PTSD doesn't have to make you a "fractured mess". It could be argued that based on common D&D tropes, and common PC behaviors that most adventurers do in fact suffer from "PTSD" IF you look at it in its most simplistic representation.

Both I and one of my closest friends have been diagnosed with PTSD. His from combat in the military. Mine from private experiences. We both have radically different symptoms, different treatment needs and both live fairly normal lives. neither of us are "fractured messes." He for example still looks for potential IEDs and snipers everywhere he goes. Me, I don't trust anyone I don't know well, and have no flight reflex, if exposed to something I perceive as a threat, I have an overwhelming FIGHT response.
For example, last summer we had a black rat snake get into our house, in our bedroom. Scared the crap out of my wife. Me, I worked at a zoo for 14 years, I love pretty much all animals except for spiders, ticks and flees.
I gather what I think I will need to get the snake out. A stick to distract him and a chain mail glove on the other hand to grab him. My intent was to relocate him. But I startled the little guy, and he struck towards my face instead of toward the stick as I had expected. Even though I was well out of range, it scared me. I snatched it out of the air and had crushed it before I had time to think. I felt like crap. But I still couldn't release my grip for several minutes.
Maybe a little messed up, but far from fractured.
I was referring to the extreme nature of the adventuring profession, not the consequences of PTSD in general. If you're going to experience psychological harm from stressful situations, adventurers are going to have it in leaps and bounds based on the nature of what they confront on a daily basis, where at medium levels the best they could hope for if they lose is to be killed, where the worst probably varies from having their soul tortured by demons forever to having some weird thing lay eggs in you that eat their way out of your body, and the like. Every day.

strangebloke
2017-06-26, 03:15 PM
Side note:

School of magic preference should have a big effect on how you're viewed, to those who know what your prefferred school is.

Evokers? Simpleton meatheads.
Abjurers? Good men to have around.
Enchanters? Disgusting untrustworthy piece of ****. Work with them through proxies if possible. Avoid eye contact if not.
Necromancers? Blasphemers, plain and simple.
Diviners? Keep them close... one way or another.
Transmuters? Not particularly worrisome.
Illusionists? Entertaining, but not that practical. (unless they've actually fought one)

Unoriginal
2017-06-26, 03:17 PM
I do, however, think there would be a particularly significant psychological trauma in losing control of your body/mind, specifically when it's someone else -taking- that control from you.

I disagree with that. There is no such thing as people reacting to something in a way or another inherently.

Some people would feel significant trauma from it, some others would shrug it off.

A merchant who gets casted Friend on would probably be furious, but not traumatized. A queen who spends a hour under Domination so she opens the kingdom's vault for thieves could certainly feel guilty and ashamed, but nothing guarantees that she'll have horrible trauma from it.


People who wind up paralyzed or otherwise unable to control parts of their body often deal with severe emotional stress, depression, and other attendant issues, after all.

I... don't know why you're bringing that up in this context. People who are paralyzed or unable to control parts of their bodies don't deal with severe emotional stress (unless there are other factors than the paralysis) or depression when it lasts for a few hours (or even days, in most case). Distress, sure, but depression and that kind of emotional stress comes from the fact they're confronted with permanent (or semi-permanent) losses of their body autonomy.


I am sure Goblins see heroes as murderhoboes but this is not a game where species hatred is glossed over, is it?

Well, goblins who are fought by adventurers are generally pretty aware that they're raiders and want to harm others for fun and profit. They're less considering the typical adventurers to be murderhoboes and more that they're people who are defending what the goblins are trying to steal/harm, just like any other rival group.

Waterdeep Merch
2017-06-26, 03:20 PM
Your talk of feeblemind seems strange, given that every single published D&D campaign setting in existence includes quantifiable souls and afterlives. This is what makes sentient creatures what they are, not their mental scores. You can't 'murder' a person with it, when the thing that really makes them themselves isn't involved. I don't disagree that it's a pretty messed up thing to do to anyone, though. It's a last resort you use on a particularly heinous lich, not something you drop on, say, a bandit. Outside of plans to cure it quickly, 'good' characters should pretty much never use it.

It's also going to be very different in any setting where you don't have souls as part of your setting, or if they're tied to your mind. This is more common in cyberpunk, I find.

The consequences are interesting in theory, but real life examples go against this being normal. It's just as likely that a person would find your average use of command or charm person to be weird or alarming, like having your arms slowly rise without you telling them to due to a change in blood pressure, or doing something they know they shouldn't, and that's about it. You could make a compelling sociopath using this as a base, but that's not going to be the common response. Calling it 'trauma' out the gate regardless of the task is sort of a debasement of actual traumatic experiences. We shouldn't be lumping 'someone made me walk across the room' or 'I spent exactly 5 seconds groveling once' with things like 'violence against children' and 'sexual assault' except in the case of a very depraved mind.

Settings with this sort of magic should definitely be more aware of it. I've got something of a bone to pick with most of them due to the general lack of insight into the changes any society engrossed in magic could have. If you're in a high magic campaign and you've got a bit of wealth, you're probably going to invest in some kind of wards against compulsory effects. Villains are going to be more likely to use enchantment spells inside of any civilized society, given the obvious bent they have towards criminal behavior. Even in low magic campaigns where they're at least aware of charm spells, there's likely a lot of good luck charms and snake oil going around to stop it.

Everything else I agree with, except maybe for the 'neutral' approach to dealing with a player that wants to use these sorts of spells in their most awful possible ways. Allowing a game to become a stand to punish someone just sounds miserable for everyone involved. Better to just not play a game like that, in my opinion. Kick the player or stop playing altogether.

Good guide. It's definitely worth a read.

tieren
2017-06-26, 03:22 PM
I definitely agree PCs doing it to one another should be banned.

I think from a story telling standpoint there are times it is appropriate for an NPC to do it to a PC, and it is appropriate in that case for the character to react in whatever way the player feels most appropriate.

From a play perspective I think it is good to discuss the effects of PCs using this type of magic on NPCs and having there be appropriate consequences.

I am wondering if people feel any different if one of the actors in the scenario is a monster, like a Succubi, nereid, dryad, nymph, etc... where the general compulsion/seduction angle is part of their mythos.

Steampunkette
2017-06-26, 03:23 PM
I disagree with that. There is no such thing as people reacting to something in a way or another inherently.

Some people would feel significant trauma from it, some others would shrug it off.

A merchant who gets casted Friend on would probably be furious, but not traumatized. A queen who spends a hour under Domination so she opens the kingdom's vault for thieves could certainly feel guilty and ashamed, but nothing guarantees that she'll have horrible trauma from it.

It's true that different people react differently to trauma. Some shut down. Others sublimate. Others become violent. I mentioned some of the different possible reactions in the OP.

Is the Merchant furious because he was swindled, or is he furious because someone reached into his mind and changed it to make him more easily swindled? I think the latter is at least as big as the former.


I... don't know why you're bringing that up in this context. People who are paralyzed or unable to control parts of their bodies don't deal with severe emotional stress (unless there are other factors than the paralysis) or depression when it lasts for a few hours (or even days, in most case). Distress, sure, but depression and that kind of emotional stress comes from the fact they're confronted with permanent (or semi-permanent) losses of their body autonomy.

Because it's closer to the situation being described than being told to stand in the corner by a man with a gun. When a man with a gun puts you in the corner you can fight back or freeze up or try to escape. When paralysis puts you in the corner you have no choice.

Also, I highly doubt the guard losing his bodily autonomy knows how long it's going to last. So the stress and trauma would probably be closer to the latter issue of semi-permanent paralysis. This isn't just a situation of being told to do something. It's body horror.

CaptainSarathai
2017-06-26, 03:24 PM
In Game, Societal
This is something that you have to answer for in your world-building. How does your society treat magical coercion or non-consent?
Uniformly, my worlds meet magical dominance with open hostility. In society where magic is fairly commonplace, such effects are treated legally, much like rape in our own systems.
Now, I've actually played this out as a social commentary on how we treat rape in our culture - as in, I've had my society handle cases of domination quite poorly.
"You are under arrest for treason, for stealing the Emperor's new clothes."
"But, I was being dominated!"
"Nonsense, every criminal says that.
or
Clearly, you were not resistant enough to the idea, and thus remain guilty."
Basically, all the typical B.S you hear surrounding RL rape trials.
I've actually used this to get through to real-life "that guy" types, when their character faces the headsman's block and nobody believes that their actions were carried out without consent.

In worlds that have placed sanctions on magic and have magical law, domination can be as bad or even worse than necromancy.
What's odd is that the concept of Necromancy as "the bbeg of magic" is very strange. 'Necromancy as Evil' only works, under two broad assumptions:
1. The body and soul are sacred
This is for any culture that sees veneration of the dead as a sacred act, and the body must be cared for to aid in attaining an afterlife. Conversely, this would work if Necromancy was deemed to bind the soul back into the body.
Cultures which believe that a corpse is just a husk, no more valuable than a butterfly's empty cocoon, would likely not have this concern.

2. Necromancy goes against consent
Basically, this treats Necromancy as a very powerful Dominate spell.
"We can just kill the king, and make him our Thrall, then rule the kingdom by proxy."
Funny then, that people take this more seriously than Charm type effects.

In cultures that do not have laws against magic, or who don't have much knowledge magic - dominate spells are utterly reprehensible. The entirety of the Salem Witch Hunts were propagated on the notion that the witches were entrancing people. The likely truth, is that a Puritan man used accusations of witchcraft as a way to cover up an affair,
"She bewitched me! I didn't want to have relations with her, I'm a moral, married man! She had me under a spell!"
Ironically making the most famous case of "fake rape accusations" a case about a man lying.

So it makes perfect sense that in a less magically-educated culture, Domination spells would be treated the same way as rape. Again, you can make social commentary out of this - allowing certain people to Dominate other certain people without consequence, ie
"You can't rape your wife / do what you want to the slaves"
---

The Real World
At the table, I try to keep things reasonably PG-13, and I don't allow sociopaths.
If I gauge my players, and deem that they can handle more mature themes, then I might imply rapes and so on. I'm playing an Arthurian campaign right now, and anyone who knows the stories of Arthur knows that rape is practically a cornerstone in those legends. I also have classical Fey in the world, and again - legends of the Fey have them routinely using magic to seduce mortal. Add in arranged marriages, and barbarians at the gates who allegedly want nothing more than to ravage your women, and you get the idea.

However, rapes in game are never "on screen" or graphic, and they are handled maturely. It's not the villain's reason for being a villain - it's just something that happens in the game world. It's never played for laughs.
I also never allow my P.Characters to be raped.
'Curse of Strahd' does a really good job of this. Mind-altering effects are throw around all over in that AP, but at no point does it ever become sexual.

I don't allow players to attack or cast any spell implicitly targeting another player, without agreement from the target player. Otherwise, the spell is automatically assumed to fail.
Obviously, characters can be caught in splash damage and so forth, and they can happily Grapple or deal non-lethal damage to their hearts' content.
Players who are disruptively callous, get ejected. Immediately. No ifs-ands-or-buts. They're out for the session at least and maybe we'll talk about their actions later if they want to rejoin.

The biggest thing, is to just be attentive and have open lines of communication with your players. I always put my contact info in my players' info packet at the start of the campaign. I encourage them to let me know if they'll be missing a session and so on, but also put right there in the info, that if I do anything which disturbs them, they can either handle it at the table, or they can reach me via my contact info and we'll talk about it.
I actually had this happen once, when the party found a female NPC in an prison. She had obviously been tortured and beaten pretty savagely, and was obviously traumatized by the experience.
I was laying in bed, and got woken up by a phonecall, with a player on the other end. I hadn't noticed any signs at the table, but apparently she'd spent the time away, after the session, fixating on the situation and losing sleep.
"She wasn't raped, was she?"
It was like, 3am and I had no idea what the hell was happening. When I asked who she was talking about, she said the NPC they'd rescued. I told her no, the NPC wasn't assaulted.

"No, in talking it over with the NPC, she told your character that that was the only thing they wouldn't do to her, because 'they said she was too weak and pathetic, and it would be beneath them."

So that seemed comforting at least. I asked her if she was okay, and she told me that she'd been a victim of some abuse in her past. I asked if she'd rather I not had female characters getting beaten up in the future, and she said that violence was alright, as long as it made sense - like beating a prisoner or something; as long as the victim was never complicit, it was alright.
I consider that a victory. And that's exactly why my contact info is on my handouts.

Zanos
2017-06-26, 03:34 PM
Because it's closer to the situation being described than being told to stand in the corner by a man with a gun. When a man with a gun puts you in the corner you can fight back or freeze up or try to escape. When paralysis puts you in the corner you have no choice.
In my experience you don't really have a choice here. Your body kind of makes it for you.

Naanomi
2017-06-26, 03:34 PM
I think there are a few factors at play here in as far as adventuring uses of these spells go; as well as some larger cosmological questions.

1) I think that in many circumstances that such magic is used either instead of or in addition to killing someone. If I dominate a monster to attack his allies and then kill him afterwards, I see little difference than if I killed him and his allies in some other way. Likewise with combat uses of command (drop your weapon!) in the context of an ongoing fight. Can it be used cruelty even in a combat situation? Of course, just as a melee fighter can fight to inflict extra pain and the like.

2) Given that traditional manipulation and social persuasion techniques exist (usually represented by use of a charisma skill), is there a meaningful distinction between magic that increases your persuasiveness (like guidance or glibness) compared to magic that more directly influences others?

3) I think it is important to keep in mind that not everything that causes the 'charm' (or 'frightened') effect has these same sort of moral implications. If an angel's glory or a nymphs beauty (or the swashbuckler's force of personality) causes the Charmed status but isn't, to me, in the same moral category as mental magic

4) In a game where moral considerations of mental magic are taken seriously (which isn't all of them, some games may just handwave it in the way unjustified killing of 'monsters' is ignored) or settings where it is treated as inherently immortal... bards must be as feared and hated as wizards; they have at least as many tools at their disposal (and the natural charm to exploit them better); and many mystics as well

Unoriginal
2017-06-26, 03:40 PM
It's true that different people react differently to trauma.

And some are not affected by the experience in a way that can be described as "trauma"




Because it's closer to the situation being described than being told to stand in the corner by a man with a gun.

Not really, no.


When paralysis puts you in the corner you have no choice.

Same thing if you are tied up by a burglar.




Also, I highly doubt the guard losing his bodily autonomy knows how long it's going to last. So the stress and trauma would probably be closer to the latter issue of semi-permanent paralysis.

Not really. The guard would probably be stressed, maybe even panic, but trauma due to stress and depression are because the problem is a long-lasting one, causing traumatic effects on the long term.



It's body horror.

Not quite. Again, it's scary, but in itself it's not that horrifying. What happens to you when your helpless is a different story, of course.



Calling it 'trauma' out the gate regardless of the task is sort of a debasement of actual traumatic experiences. We shouldn't be lumping 'someone made me walk across the room' or 'I spent exactly 5 seconds groveling once' with things like 'violence against children' and 'sexual assault' except in the case of a very depraved mind.

I have to agree with this.


2) Given that traditional manipulation and social persuasion techniques exist (usually represented by use of a charisma skill), is there a meaningful distinction between magic that increases your persuasiveness (like guidance or glibness) compared to magic that more directly influences others?

The meaningful difference is like the difference between winning a race because you modified your car to be faster using a technique no one else knows, but allowed by the competition's rules and winning a race because you destroyed the other's car before the race.

Or between getting a complete makeover to convince someone you know likes the style you chose and kidnapping the person's lover to force them to obey.

In one, you're giving your capacities a boost using a method that gives you an advantage the others don't have. In the other, you're removing the others' capacities to oppose you.

Of course, boosting yourself with magic or anything else for a competition between individual skills is a different debate.

Gtdead
2017-06-26, 03:42 PM
I don't see this as any different deal than the murderhobo tendency. Using spells against someone in order to force him into a certain state, being dominated, paralyzed, dead or undead, is violence.

The secondary effects of that violence are up to the DM, the setting, the maturity and capacity for drama of the people playing the game, considering that even a dead character can continue experiencing the game in a different plane, parallel to the others, as long as the DM is willing to take that route.

Steampunkette
2017-06-26, 03:59 PM
Until one of us is psychically controlled by another person we can only base our judgements on our past experiences, our understanding of philosophy and the human condition, and our imaginations.

Based on what I've been through, and some of it has been downright horrible, I made this thread.

If your contribution is going to be "It's not that bad to be mind controlled" that is all well and good but it's really not something any of us will ever successfully debate.

At this point I will disconnect myself from that particular aspect of discussion 'cause it's neither helpful nor conducive to continued helping of DMs who may face the problems I've outlined in the OP.

Also: If your position is "We shouldn't censor ourselves" then please try to understand I'm not censoring or suggesting censorship of anyone. Only advice on how to deal with spells that can cause problems at the table and in a game world, what those problems are, and suggestions on how to express them.

strangebloke
2017-06-26, 04:17 PM
There's tiers to this:

A: A PC or NPC uses mind-affecting spells to get past a hostile NPC or PC. This to me is fine. Obviously, that guy could be scarred for life, but his buddies are dead, so arguably they're worse off.

B: A PC uses mind-affecting spells on an innocent NPC: This is somewhat objectionable. If he takes it as far as rape and the like, you either need to keep this off-screen and play it straight, or kill it right away if its bothering other players. Either way, repercussions ensue.

C: An NPC uses mind-affecting spells on an innocent NPC: This is realistic. If your campaign is realistic, this should happen. That said, its ugly and distracting and you should keep it offscreen.

D: A PC uses mind-affecting spells unprovoked on a currently friendly PC: This is bad. This shouldn't happen. Depending on the circumstance, you may need to kick this player out.

Mind Control is worse than violence as far as PCs are concerned. Violence is just 'I kill your character, roll a new one.' or 'sleep it off.' Domination/Thralldom is 'roleplay my slave for half a session.' Which is less fun?

Naanomi
2017-06-26, 04:32 PM
There are some genre conventions at play in all of this as well... chaotic good fey, celestials, and dieties are often big on various mind and emotional control.

Similarly, although they do occasionally explore the moral implications, mind control and memory manipulation is sometimes a 'good guy power' in comics (Professor X erasing memories to protect his students is seen as praiseworthy; and his mind control is often characterized as a commendable 'alternative to violence'). Of course in such settings it doesn't appear to be a traumatic situation in most cases (again, there are exceptions)

Unoriginal
2017-06-26, 04:34 PM
If your contribution is going to be "It's not that bad to be mind controlled" that is all well and good but it's really not something any of us will ever successfully debate.

There is a difference between "it's not that bad" and "it's not automatically traumatic".

If you want a judgement based on past experience, sure:

A few years ago, I needed to have an operation performed on me to remove a cyst. It wasn't an heavy problem, but due to the location of the cyst the anesthetic needed to be injected in my spine.

And for that kind of thing, there is a very small, but still existing, chance that something goes wrong.

So I had to stay still as I got a syringe stuck in my spine, and then lost all sensations in my lower body along with the capacity to move it.

I knew the risks were minimal, rationally speaking. But I still couldn't do anything as doctors did the operation and cut the cyst out of my body, couldn't control anything. And I was completely helpless in the hands of people I didn't really know and with dire consequences if something, anything went wrong. And that was terrifying, in its own way.

Everything worked out in the end, and I won't be arrogant enough to say that the experience had no effect on me, because it did have some, but to call it "trauma" would be pretty ridiculous and disrespectful to those who have to live with traumatic events.


Now, you can say "but you agreed to it, when someone who get cast a spell on doesn't", well, I agreed to it because there was no real alternative. A guard who gets paralyzed or is suddenly convinced a random stranger is their best friend isn't going to have a good time. But being helpless for a while is not inherently a trauma.

MrStabby
2017-06-26, 04:49 PM
It seems that GitP needs a thread on " how to have better friends". If players routinely do things that offend other players then not playing with them seems the obvious solution. You don't accidentally be that offensive, it takes effort.

As for trauma, I woke with sleep paralysis once and it was terrifying whilst it lasted but left less of a lingering fear than being attacked and having a broken rib did.

coolAlias
2017-06-26, 04:51 PM
To add on to some of the other thoughts here, you can argue that methods other than mind-control offer a choice and are thus preferable, but sometimes it's not really a choice.

"Stand still while I do X or I will do Y terrible thing to you" is, arguably, a form of mind control. If Y is terrible enough that the victim would rather suffer through X, while you could argue they have a 'choice', the choice really only has one option as far as that person is concerned.

Similarly, compare paralysis via mind control (e.g. hold person, command) to someone breaking your spine. No choice in either case, but at least the mind control will probably wear off. In both cases you get a chance to avoid it (save and AC both model defending yourself from some form of attack), and both have a similar outcome, but in this case I would argue that the physical attack is worse.

In any case, your point stands: if someone is going to do reprehensible things in-game, regardless of the method they use to accomplish those things, then there needs to be both consent from the other players and an understanding of what sorts of in-game repercussions to expect.

For my own part, I haven't played with anyone that uses mind control or any other method to do things like rape NPCs or other PCs. Mind control in other situations definitely has repercussions. If you use suggestion on an NPC and they find out, they will of course never trust you again and will do all they can to never be anywhere near you. If that person was someone powerful like a noble, they'd probably have you executed or at least arrested.

As a method of resolution to combat, however, where the alternative is usually death, I think most NPCs/monsters would prefer the mind control alternative so long as it wasn't a long-term thing, and even then they might still prefer it depending on their personality. And that's the real takeaway - every individual will react differently to mind control vs other forms of violence. For some, it will be worse than death; for others, it may be a welcome surrender; for most, it will probably be somewhere in the middle.

strangebloke
2017-06-26, 05:04 PM
There are some genre conventions at play in all of this as well... chaotic good fey, celestials, and dieties are often big on various mind and emotional control.

Similarly, although they do occasionally explore the moral implications, mind control and memory manipulation is sometimes a 'good guy power' in comics (Professor X erasing memories to protect his students is seen as praiseworthy; and his mind control is often characterized as a commendable 'alternative to violence'). Of course in such settings it doesn't appear to be a traumatic situation in most cases (again, there are exceptions)

Don't get me started on that Professor X guy. :smallfurious:

For Celestials and the like though, they sort of get the 'excuse by omniscience' they're going to know what is and isn't going to be traumatic in a way that a mere mortal could not. I'd argue they fall well outside of the realm of human ethics.

Hrugner
2017-06-26, 05:11 PM
[COLOR="#8B4513"]

And if a person lacks Control, they must similarly lack Consent within the eyes of the Law.



It's obviously not that clear cut legally in the real world, I doubt it would be more so in a magical world. Large chunks of criminal prosecution takes place without intent being proven, only proving recklessness and saddling the reckless person with the fallout from their actions. Since the stats and saves all represent the person's characteristics, it can be assumed that someone who does fall prey to compulsions is in some way weak. In fact, since people have the opportunity to pursue a holy path and be completely free from magical compulsions, their decision not to do so means that they have been somewhat reckless in their life. So, in the same way that being drunk while using a fire arm could be illegal, having weapons without being a 7th level devotion paladin could also be treated as illegal. The point is that since the person had intent at some point before they lost it, and didn't use that intent to ensure they weren't a danger to others, they've failed to uphold the unspoken civil contract.

Which is of course why these sorts of questions are useless in D&D. They don't make even the barest of sense. Likewise mental stress, PTSD, trauma and so forth also don't exist mechanically in D&D. And if they did, they could be cured by a second level spell.

Zanos
2017-06-26, 05:31 PM
Similarly, although they do occasionally explore the moral implications, mind control and memory manipulation is sometimes a 'good guy power' in comics (Professor X erasing memories to protect his students is seen as praiseworthy; and his mind control is often characterized as a commendable 'alternative to violence'). Of course in such settings it doesn't appear to be a traumatic situation in most cases (again, there are exceptions)
I seem to recall quite a bit of moral backlash from the other characters for him doing this, depending on the writer. I think it is shown most of the time that the alternatives are much worse.

Naanomi
2017-06-26, 05:42 PM
I seem to recall quite a bit of moral backlash from the other characters for him doing this, depending on the writer. I think it is shown most of the time that the alternatives are much worse.
Definetly depends on the writer, but overall I would argue that the genre conventions at play generally paint him in a heroic light