D&D: Dualing and Dueling

[Drackolus]

While toying with the idea of a sword+dagger combo, I realized that if you have dueling and twf, you can throw the dagger as a bonus action (for 1d4+mod), then make your main attacks with the dueling bonus as your offhand is now free. Str builds can use spears instead, which have the benefits of being cheaper and do more damage, but are bulkier and require the dual-wielding feat.

If using the feat (a solid choice), if you start your turn with both weapons in hand, you can BA throw, A attack, then use your free object interaction at the end to regain your ac bonus.

Crossbow master/close quarters shooting can negate the melee throw disadvantage.

The major downsides of this is that it becomes expensive if your dm doesn't allow you to recover your weapons, and that it probably still doesn't match the gwm build.

Normal ways to do this is some sort of paladin/fighter/ranger combination or by being champion fighter.

I think, if I were to do this, I would do 1-3 fighter/spelless hunter ranger x, to maximise the versatility of alternating melee and ranged attacks with superiority dice. Likely vuman for dual wielder.

Any comments/rules corrections/suggestions/other build ideas using this?

[DivisibleByZero]

The major downsides of this is that it becomes expensive if your dm doesn't allow you to recover your weapons, and that it probably still doesn't match the gwm build.

A third downside could be that your DM might slap you for trying to cheese what should be two mutually exclusive fighting styles together. But then again, some people are into that sort of thing.

Note that even your queso version requires the Dual Wielder feat before you can attempt it without two light weapons.

[Drackolus]

A third downside could be that your DM might slap you for trying to cheese what should be two mutually exclusive fighting styles together. But then again, some people are into that sort of thing.

Note that even your queso version requires the Dual Wielder feat before you can attempt it without two light weapons.

Yeah. Using a scimitar and dagger doesn't hurt your dpr that bad though.

Assuming basic multiattack, no feats and maxed attacking stat, you get 26.5, vs. box standard gwf's 26.6 - without a bonus action needed. So it's cheesy in the sense of "that's clearly not intentional," but not cheesy by being particularly powerful.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Sadly, a single mechanic is preventing this, RAW- you can't make a bonus action attack before making a regular attack action, as per page 195 of the PHB. It's the same reason green flame blade and booming blade don't allow for TWF.

[Spiderguy24]

Sadly, a single mechanic is preventing this, RAW- you can't make a bonus action attack before making a regular attack action, as per page 195 of the PHB. It's the same reason green flame blade and booming blade don't allow for TWF.

Though with Extra Attack, wouldn't you be able to make one standard attack, bonus action to toss the knife, then attack again with the main hand weapon?

[Waterdeep Merch]

Though with Extra Attack, wouldn't you be able to make one standard attack, bonus action to toss the knife, then attack again with the main hand weapon?

Per RAW, no. Extra Attack lets you make one additional attack when you take the Attack action. You can use your standard movement in between these attacks because movement is not an action, but until you're finished, you haven't finished taking the Attack action.

EDIT: That said, I'd insist that no one actually get that pedantic about Extra Attack. It's not a crazy enough feature to warrant restricting it.

[Spiderguy24]

Per RAW, no. Extra Attack lets you make one additional attack when you take the Attack action. You can use your standard movement in between these attacks because movement is not an action, but until you're finished, you haven't finished taking the Attack action.

EDIT: That said, I'd insist that no one actually get that pedantic about Extra Attack. It's not a crazy enough feature to warrant restricting it.

That's not good then. My Valor Bard has the Shield master feat which lets him use his shield as a bonus action, but he has Extra Attack... As long as the DM isn't so ridged about the RAW, it should be fine. The DMs I play with are flexible about it.

[bid]

Sadly, a single mechanic is preventing this, RAW- you can't make a bonus action attack before making a regular attack action, as per page 195 of the PHB. It's the same reason green flame blade and booming blade don't allow for TWF.
No, the reasons are completely different. TWF requires the attack action while BB uses the cast a spell action.

In any case, you can still attack with your main hand, use you free interaction to pull a knife, and bonus action to throw it.

[bid]

That's not good then. My Valor Bard has the Shield master feat which lets him use his shield as a bonus action, but he has Extra Attack... As long as the DM isn't so ridged about the RAW, it should be fine. The DMs I play with are flexible about it.
Not an issue.

The formula "when you take the attack action" does not impose order. This is explained in the sage advice for war magic.

TWF has the additional "and attack with ..." which can be contrued as forcing an order.

[Waterdeep Merch]

No, they have no reason in common. TWF requires the attack action while BB uses the cast a spell action.

In any case, you can still attack with your main hand, use you free interaction to pull a knife, and bonus action to throw it.
Not according to the passage on two-weapon fighting-


When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand,
you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.

It's written to make the presumption that you're already holding the offhand weapon when you take the initial Attack action. As written, that means you aren't two-weapon fighting if you started the Attack without appropriate weapons in both hands.

I still don't agree it's necessary to be overly specific here in actual gameplay, but it does at least stop weird shenanigans with trying to use multiple fighting styles.

[Puh Laden]

Take the dual-wielder feat, be an EK, alternate between throwing and recovering your spear. According to SA, there's precedent for bonus actions being able to go before their required actions by foreordaining what the action will be, though that is RAI not RAW. I'd allow it though.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Take the dual-wielder feat, be an EK, alternate between throwing and recovering your spear. According to SA, there's precedent for bonus actions being able to go before their required actions by foreordaining what the action will be, though that is RAI not RAW. I'd allow it though.
I'm glad to know that wasn't the intention. So long as it isn't an attempt at weird cheese, I've got no problems with my players alternating or doing things out of order. It makes fights more tactically interesting by opening up options.

[ZorroGames]

Just to include this - Champion gets a second fighting style at one point. AFB right now.

Edit: Champion level 10.

[DivisibleByZero]

I think you missed the point.
The cheese is that you have TWF, which is a fighting style comprised of using two weapons, and dueling, which is a fighting style comprised of only using a single weapon.
You cannot be using two weapons, while simultaneously only using one weapon.
They are mutually exclusive fighting styles.
Your DM might just slap you for even asking about such an obviously cheesy, gamist proposition.
I would laugh you away from my table.

[ZorroGames]

I think you missed the point.
The cheese is that you have TWF, which is a fighting style comprised of using two weapons, and dueling, which is a fighting style comprised of only using a single weapon.
You cannot be using two weapons, while simultaneously only using one weapon.
They are mutually exclusive fighting styles.
Your DM might just slap you for even asking about such an obviously cheesy, gamist proposition.
I would laugh you away from my table.

It's magic! :smallbiggrin:

Slapping me would result in non-magical "bracelets" for the DM. :smallconfused:

[Puh Laden]

A downside to taking the dual-wielder feat for this is that your AC becomes consistently variable, which is something you'll have to learn to keep track of.

[Corran]

You'll also need mobile or crossbow expert (to avoid the disadvantage on the ranged attack you make to throw your dagger), if you aim to profit from it consistently.

[Drackolus]

Yeah, I'm beginning to think the "and attack with a light melee weapon" is what makes it not work like shield master. You can make the attack action without actually attacking (think a level 3 battlemaster using commanding strike), but you can't make an attack without... Making an attack.
But cheese is delicious, and exploring the rules in this way improves system mastery, and that's good for everyone. Sooooooo...
It's been covered in a sage advice (that I'm struggling to find, forgive me) that a character with a weapon in each hand and extra attack may make one attack with each weapon (as the attack action does not specify that you must use the same weapon) and you would add your modifier to bith hits (as it's not the bonus action attack, which only doesn't use the modifier for a specific rule).
This is where I jump the shark of rules.
So, say your character has a dagger in your left hand and a short sword in your right. and extra attack, as well as the dueling and two weapon fighting styles.
1) take attack action, and throw the dagger in your left hand. You've now made an attack with a light weapon in your LEFT hand.
2) for your second attack, swing with your shortsword, and you gain the dueling bonus as you don't have a weapon in your left hand.
3) now, as you have attacked "with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. " Meaning... You can attack with your shortsword again, adding your modifier AND the dueling bonus.

Just to clarify that this is not really meant to be taken seriously and only to be used at the kind of tables that allow one-handed shield+pam level of cheese. But I think this is, by raw, legal.

[bid]

1) take attack action, and throw the dagger in your left hand. You've now made an attack with a light weapon in your LEFT hand.
2) for your second attack, swing with your shortsword, and you gain the dueling bonus as you don't have a weapon in your left hand.
3) now, as you have attacked "with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. " Meaning... You can attack with your shortsword again, adding your modifier AND the dueling bonus.
That works. And cleanly too.

[DivisibleByZero]

That works. And cleanly too.

Not at my table.
If you want to make a bonus action attack with a secondary weapon, you forfeit the dueling damage for that turn. If you want the dueling damage that turn, at no point can you make a bonus action attack with a secondary weapon.
Mutually exclusive.

[Puh Laden]

Considering the feat investment required to do this niche thing effectively and consistently, it would totally work at MY table. If you find fun in niche RAW exploits, I say go for it.

Edit: and almost more importantly, without the feat, it conjures up the swashbuckling imagery of throwing a dagger to cut a rope bringing the hero to the evil captain to cross blades.

[TheCrowing1432]

Why couldnt you do this?

Wielding a shortsword and a dagger.

1. Attack using your shortsword, as normal, this fufills the condition for Two Weapon Fighting.
2. Throw the dagger as your two weapon fighting bonus action, you now have one weapon in your hand.
3. Use your Extra Attack to attack with your shortsword, now getting the dueling bonus as you are only wielding one weapon now.

[Drackolus]

Why couldnt you do this?

Wielding a shortsword and a dagger.

1. Attack using your shortsword, as normal, this fufills the condition for Two Weapon Fighting.
2. Throw the dagger as your two weapon fighting bonus action, you now have one weapon in your hand.
3. Use your Extra Attack to attack with your shortsword, now getting the dueling bonus as you are only wielding one weapon now.

I'm not sure you can break up your attack by things other than movement and object interactions, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could. You'd only get the dueling bonus once that way also.


Not at my table.
If you want to make a bonus action attack with a secondary weapon, you forfeit the dueling damage for that turn. If you want the dueling damage that turn, at no point can you make a bonus action attack with a secondary weapon.
Mutually exclusive.

That's fine. I wouldn't think it weird to disallow polearm master with one-handed quarterstaves either. But I wouldn't say the base rules (using that feat as written) don't allow that, because it clearly does.
Also worth stating that that is significantly stronger for roughly the same effect as what we're talking about here.

[DivisibleByZero]

That's fine. I wouldn't think it weird to disallow polearm master with one-handed quarterstaves either. But I wouldn't say the base rules (using that feat as written) don't allow that, because it clearly does.
Also worth stating that that is significantly stronger for roughly the same effect as what we're talking about here.

I also do not allow PAM to be used with a staff wielded in one hand.