Gift of the Everliving One and Vamperic Touch

[Mcdjangali]

The following question was originally posted on the RAW Questions thread and it was suggested that it be opened up in a new thread for further discussion.

Q 219

My question is in regards to the revised UA's Invocation, Gift of the Everliving One, and whether or not it applies to the spell Vamperic Touch.

Gift of the Everliving One (GotEO):
"Whenever you regain hit points while your familiar is within 100 feet of you, treat any dice rolled to determine the hit points you regain as having rolled their maximum value for you."

Vamperic Touch:
"The touch of your shadow-wreathed hand can siphon life force from others to heal your wounds. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On
a hit, the target takes 3d6 necrotic damage, and you regain hit points equal to half the amount of necrotic damage dealt. Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action."


So far the consensus is the GotEO would not apply to Vamperic Touch, however, I do believe there is plenty of room for discussion given the damage rolled from VT determines how many Hp you regain and GotEO says "...any dice rolled...etc."

[MrStabby]

The ability requires two conditions to be met: you regain hitpoints, those hp are determined by one or more dice.

This spell meets both. The ability won't change damage dealt but will impact healing.

[Tetrasodium]

The ability requires two conditions to be met: you regain hitpoints, those hp are determined by one or more dice.

This spell meets both. The ability won't change damage dealt but will impact healing.

I agree, this seems like the right ruling because it doesn't say anything About damage, just regaining hp. roll your 3d6 & get 9 (half of 18) hp even if you only deal 3 damage because you "determine the hit points you regain as having rolled their maximum value for you." They should probably clarify that.

[Mcdjangali]

I agree, this seems like the right ruling because it doesn't say anything About damage, just regaining hp. roll your 3d6 & get 18 hp even if you only deal 3 damage because you "determine the hit points you regain as having rolled their maximum value for you." They should probably clarify that.

Should it still be half of the maximum dice rolled? Maximum would be 18 then half is 9. How can it effect the healing without effecting the damage done since you heal half the damage dealt?

[ThePolarBear]

The following question was originally posted on the RAW Questions thread and it was suggested that it be opened up in a new thread for further discussion.

Q 219

My question is in regards to the revised UA's Invocation, Gift of the Everliving One, and whether or not it applies to the spell Vamperic Touch.

Gift of the Everliving One (GotEO):
"Whenever you regain hit points while your familiar is within 100 feet of you, treat any dice rolled to determine the hit points you regain as having rolled their maximum value for you."

Vamperic Touch:
"The touch of your shadow-wreathed hand can siphon life force from others to heal your wounds. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On
a hit, the target takes 3d6 necrotic damage, and you regain hit points equal to half the amount of necrotic damage dealt. Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action."


So far the consensus is the GotEO would not apply to Vamperic Touch, however, I do believe there is plenty of room for discussion given the damage rolled from VT determines how many Hp you regain and GotEO says "...any dice rolled...etc."


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I dunno. You roll to determine the damage you will deal, then you regain hit points depending on the damage DEALT. If the creature is immune to necrotic damage, you roll 7, you deal 0, you regain 0. You do not roll to regain hp or determine how many you regain. You roll to determine damage, then determine how much the creature would take. Of what remains, heal for half.

If it said " You deal 3d6 necrotic damage and heal for half that amount" then certainly yes. You are rolling to determine both. When written this way... i have some serious doubts.

[Vaz]

You do not roll dice to determine hit points regained. You roll dice to determine the amount of damage done. You have a flat amount of hitpoints regained, which is equal to half the amount of damage dealt.

[Tetrasodium]

Should it still be half of the maximum dice rolled? Maximum would be 18 then half is 9. How can it effect the healing without effecting the damage done since you heal half the damage dealt?

You'd get 9 back, half of the 18 possible max dies roll regardless of what damage you do. there is already stuff to support the value for maximized healing != the value for maximized damage. 17th level life domain supreme healing maximizes any & all healing spells cast by the life cleric compared to the 14th level evoc wizard overchannel ability where you get 1/long rest free before you start taking damage for doing it or one of the good options on the wildmagic surge table nestled between the relatively benign options of having your age change by +/-10 & getting transported to the astral plane.
Bumping healing capabilities is no big deal. bumping damage capabilities to max is a huge bump

[Mcdjangali]

You do not roll dice to determine hit points regained. You roll dice to determine the amount of damage done. You have a flat amount of hitpoints regained, which is equal to half the amount of damage dealt.

Let me ask this...

Does what you roll for the damage determine how many hit points you regain, yes or no?

[Tetrasodium]

Let me ask this...

Does what you roll for the damage determine how many hit points you regain, yes or no?

No the dice determine how much damage is dealt. gift of the everliving one changes the formula from [d1+d2+d3]=damage & [d1+d2+d3]/2=hp recovered to [d1+d2+d3] =damage &[6+6+6]/2=recover 9 hp. I doubt that sorcerers not getting the maximize metamagic option in 5e's phb was an accident, maximized damage options are far more limited & restricted than maximized healing ones

Edit & the invocation is not limited to spells cast by the warlock. a healing spell cast by a druid, bard, cleric,, paladin, or artificer would also get maximized when it targets the warlock

[Mcdjangali]

No the dice determine how much damage is dealt. gift of the everliving one changes the formula from [d1+d2+d3]=damage & [d1+d2+d3]/2=hp recovered to [d1+d2+d3] =damage &[6+6+6]/2=recover 9 hp. I doubt that sorcerers not getting the maximize metamagic option in 5e's phb was an accident, maximized damage options are far more limited & restricted than maximized healing ones

I'm speaking from a RAW stand point so, how limited or restricted maximize damage is, is more of a RAI IMO.

[Chaosmancer]

You regain hp equal to half the damage dealt, this is a static value not a roll determined by dice.

If you were to strike an enemy and score a critical against them while they were vulnerable to the damage you could deal up to 52 damage and heal 36. But you cannot determine that until they take damage and then that static value is turned into healing.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm speaking from a RAW stand point so, how limited or restricted maximize damage is, is more of a RAI IMO.

if a player said that to me in regards to this situation I'd say "ok fine, it does not apply to vampiric touch at all, you get nothing there but regular vampiric touch." spells like mass healing word & mass cure wounds affected by Gift of the Everliving One are not maximized for everyone, just the hp recovered for the warlock affected by them because you ignore the dice for purposes of the warlock's hp recovery & treat them as if they were maximized for only the purposes of a warlock's hp recovery.

[Vaz]

Let me ask this...

Does what you roll for the damage determine how many hit points you regain, yes or no?

No, it doesn't. What damage you deal determines how many hit points you regain.

[Mcdjangali]

if a player said that to me in regards to this situation I'd say "ok fine, it does not apply to vampiric touch at all, you get nothing there but regular vampiric touch." spells like mass healing word & mass cure wounds affected by Gift of the Everliving One are not maximized for everyone, just the hp recovered for the warlock affected by them because you ignore the dice for purposes of the warlock's hp recovery & treat them as if they were maximized for only the purposes of a warlock's hp recovery.

As a DM, I agree with you. I'd respond the same way and implement the exact way you described but, again this is a RAW discussion and I'm playing Devils advocate a bit since I figured most would say it doesn't work.

Here are some facts
1. You roll dice to determine damage
2. You regain Hp based on that Damage

So, by RAW are you not regaining HP based on a dice roll

Btw, I may be wrong but I've noticed people using the phrase "static bonus". I thought a static bonus is set like "+2". Wouldn't this be more dynamic because it varies based on what is rolled?

[Mcdjangali]

No, it doesn't. What damage you deal determines how many hit points you regain.

"...you regain half the amount of necrotic damage dealt"

The necrotic damage dealt is 3d6, barring some other necrotic damage bonus. So, the necrotic damage dealt is a dice roll.

[Vaz]

As a DM, I agree with you. I'd respond the same way and implement the exact way you described but, again this is a RAW discussion and I'm playing Devils advocate a bit since I figured most would say it doesn't work.

Here are some facts
1. You roll dice to determine damage
2. You regain Hp based on that Damage

So, by RAW are you not regaining HP based on a dice roll

Btw, I may be wrong but I've noticed people using the phrase "static bonus". I thought a static bonus is set like "+2". Wouldn't this be more dynamic because it varies based on what is rolled?

You don't actually roll any dice to determine hit points regained though. You only roll dice to determine damage. You only regain the same amount of damage based on the amount of damage dealt.

Edit; Dude, you seem intent on trying to state that it's something it's not. Using your train of thought, it would mean you'd automatically critical hit as well. You're wrong. You heal based on what damage you do. Gift of the Ever Living Ones only ever maximises the dice roll to regain hit points. There's no dice roll to regain hit points.

[DivisibleByZero]

"...you regain half the amount of necrotic damage dealt"

The necrotic damage dealt is 3d6, barring some other necrotic damage bonus. So, the necrotic damage dealt is a dice roll.
This.
The necrotic damage is a dice roll.
The necrotic damage DEALT might be a different number based on resistance / immunity / etc.
That number (damage dealt), and not the die roll, determines hp gained.
The die roll determines damage. That damage becomes a flat number, and then you gain half of that flat number as healing.

Consider immunity.
3d6 damage ~10
That 10 becomes 0 because of immunity.
You do not gain 18hp, you gain 0, because no damage dealt.

[Mcdjangali]

You don't actually roll any dice to determine hit points regained though. You only roll dice to determine damage. You only regain the same amount of damage based on the amount of damage dealt.

Edit; Dude, you seem intent on trying to state that it's something it's not. Using your train of thought, it would mean you'd automatically critical hit as well. You're wrong. You heal based on what damage you do. Gift of the Ever Living Ones only ever maximises the dice roll to regain hit points. There's no dice roll to regain hit points.

Can you explain the auto crit train of thought thing?

I apologize if a struck a nerve or something. i just wanted to make sure there isn't anything missed. Also, I do appreciate everyone's input.

[Mcdjangali]

The necrotic damage is a dice roll.
The necrotic damage DEALT might be a different number based on resistance / immunity / etc.
That number (damage dealt), and not the die roll, determines hp gained.
The die roll determines damage. That damage becomes a flat number, and then you gain half of that flat number as healing.

Consider immunity.
3d6 damage ~10
That 10 becomes 0 because of immunity.
You do not gain 18hp, you gain 0, because no damage dealt.

Yeah, the Polar Bear brought this up earlier and honestly I think it's the best argument against it working. Thanks.

[DivisibleByZero]

Yeah, the Polar Bear brought this up earlier and honestly I think it's the best argument against it working. Thanks.

Wow. I must have scrolled right past that one. He said pretty much exactly the same thing I did.

[Vaz]

Your way of thinking means that if you read any dice rolled includes those before the determination roll their maximum, then that also logically must extend to attack rolls, as you regaining hit points MUST be determinate on you hitting that attack roll. And as the maximum is 20, ergo, it's an automatic critical hit. Which is obviously broken.

But it's not, because your way of thinking about it is wrong, because the damage rolls determine damage. The damage then determines the health.

To put it into mathematical terms;

(d1+d2+d3) = dTotal. dTotal/2 = Healing.

You are therefore assuming that (d1+d2+d3)/2 = healing. Which is an incorrect supposition, despite the contracted simplification allowing it.

[Mcdjangali]

Your way of thinking means that if you read any dice rolled includes those before the determination roll their maximum, then that also logically must extend to attack rolls, as you regaining hit points MUST be determinate on you hitting that attack roll. And as the maximum is 20, ergo, it's an automatic critical hit. Which is obviously broken.

But it's not, because your way of thinking about it is wrong, because the damage rolls determine damage. The damage then determines the health.

To put it into mathematical terms;

(d1+d2+d3) = dTotal. dTotal/2 = Healing.

You are therefore assuming that (d1+d2+d3)/2 = healing. Which is an incorrect supposition, despite the contracted simplification allowing it.

Lol, I suppose. But that is quite a leap from where I was. 🤔But now that you mention it... why not auto crit!?

Just kidding. Anyway, thanks for your input.

[Corran]

The ability requires two conditions to be met: you regain hitpoints, those hp are determined by one or more dice.

This spell meets both. The ability won't change damage dealt but will impact healing.

I agree, this seems like the right ruling because it doesn't say anything About damage, just regaining hp. roll your 3d6 & get 9 (half of 18) hp even if you only deal 3 damage because you "determine the hit points you regain as having rolled their maximum value for you." They should probably clarify that.
I read it this way too.
GotEO overrides the spell's description, just like it would do for say, a healing word. Specific beats general.

Edit: Good point about immunities. Hmmm...

[DivisibleByZero]

I read it this way too.
GotEO overrides the spell's description, just like it would do for say, a healing word. Specific beats general.

Edit: Good point about immunities. Hmmm...

It doesn't override anything.
The spell says you heal hp equal to another number.
Gaining hp equal to another number is not the same as gaining hp equal to a die roll, even if that other number is determined by a die roll. The fact that this other number is determined by a die roll doesn't change the fact the healing is (half of a) fixed number.
The spell doesn't say you regain 3d6 hp. Instead, you roll that to determine base damage, then you apply resistance/immunity/vulnerability to get the actual damage dealt. That damage dealt is a (variable) fixed number.

You divide the fixed number designated by the damage dealt by 2 and heal that much. There is no roll for this. GotEO doesn't apply at all.