Monk Conundrum

[Easy_Lee]

What party role does the Monk fill? What role ought he fill?

Striker
At first glance, Monks appear to fill a striker role. But when one does the math, they fall behind other strikers in DPR (see Kryx's spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1952512856) for one example, others have crunched roughly the same numbers). They fall a little behind a warlock casting Agonizing EB.

Some archetypes add to this role. Shadow and Kensai both make the monk a better striker, but he's still nothing like a rogue.

Controller
At second glance, Stunning Strike is exceptionally powerful. Stun is a powerful effect, and the monk can perform up to his level in strikes every rest. So now the monk looks a bit like a controller with backup DPR. The problem: the base monk has no other control features. No other saves, no athletics expertise for grappling (not that a monk would have the strength for it), and no other effects besides stun.

The Open Hand archetype increases the monk's control effects significantly. He can now prone (DEX save), push (STR save), prevent reactions (no save), give himself Sanctuary after a long rest (limited in use, though), and eventually inflict Death (CON save) on enemies. An Open Hand monk does fit what we might expect of a melee controller. But does he do so as well as a Bladesinger? Probably not. His advantage there is that he's hard to kill, which brings me to...

Defender
At third glance, Evasion, Purity of Body, Diamond Soul, Stillness of Mind, Unarmored Defense, Patient Defense, and Deflect Missiles all lend themselves to a Defender role. The monk is difficult to stop. However, his low HP, inability to use shields, lack of Uncanny Dodge or an easy source of damage resistance, and inability to redirect attacks from allies to himself all make him more frail to melee than he ought to be and unable to adequately defend party members. The most defensive thing a monk can do for the party is chain-stun a troublesome enemy, an effort that will fail if the creature has a high CON save.

More Confusion
Other monk archetypes further confuse. Elements, Tranquility, Sun Soul, and Long Death all add a mixture of abilities that make thematic sense, but don't fit a specific role. Elements and Sun Soul, in particular, turn the monk into a lesser blaster on top of all of the above. Talk about a character who can't make up his mind!

Not a team player
Lastly, all of the base monk's supportive abilities target the monk exclusively. There are no beneficial auras here.

So what is the monk?
Monks don't obviously fill any role. They don't fit neatly within a standard party (ex: fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric). They seem intended for unorthodox parties where everyone partially fills a few roles and the overlap is necessary. A party of only monks with different archetypes might even work, and the monk is one of the few classes we can say that about. A monk partnered with three gnome casters, all concentrating on different buffs for the monk and hiding in his bag of holding, would be a sight to behold, given the monk's high saves and mobility. But the same can be said of a Paladin, who shares the monk's high saves and can summon his own steed.

Some have reworked the monk into more of a striker. Many have reworked individual archetypes, myself included (looking at you, Way of Elements). Regardless, the monk is perplexing.

Thoughts?

[jaappleton]

Monks excel at debuff and mop up duty.

Stunning Strike to shut an enemy down. Speed to engage enemies at range (casters, archers) with ease. They can scout fairly well, with falling damage being an afterthought and the ability to run up walls, even across liquids.

Their archetypes allow them become side trained in another role. Tranquility for backup healer, Open Palm for forced movement, Shadow for an infiltration expert, etc.

Some people crap on the Monk for not being as good as some other classes at certain things. But they make up for it by being more well rounded.

Spellcasters in your group will love their ability to Stun anyone that gets to them so the casters can move without provoking opportunity attacks. Melee warriors will love how Monks can break through lines to get to enemy casters in the back and lock them down.

Monks can do a bit of everything. Their damage is death by a thousand cuts. Unfortunately, they really get no ability to nova, so people think they're subpar at damage. No Action Surge or GWM or Sharpshooter, nothing like that, really. But Monks are solid.

[Tetrasodium]

To be honest I'm not usually much of a fan of monk players. The class itself is fine with a diverse toolkit that allows them to do a bunch of different/unusual things. While nothing about the monk class or those abilities prevent them from being used in ways that leverage their strengths with that of the party & vice versa, monk players in my experience are more often than not looking/trying to play some weird loner that only strategizes their wide toolkit of at a whim options with the group if the rest of the group happens to do something that by chance fits in nicely with wanna be Bruce lee's random choice of the round.

That's not to say that a monk cannot work really well with a group, just that it seems like something about them seems to bring out the inner loner or something to an unusual degree. I feel like I'm more likely to see a wild magic sorcerer try to coordinate with the group than a monk.

[jaappleton]

To be honest I'm not usually much of a fan of monk players. The class itself is fine with a diverse toolkit that allows them to do a bunch of different/unusual things. While nothing about the monk class or those abilities prevent them from being used in ways that leverage their strengths with that of the party & vice versa, monk players in my experience are more often than not looking/trying to play some weird loner that only strategizes their wide toolkit of at a whim options with the group if the rest of the group happens to do something that by chance fits in nicely with wanna be Bruce lee's random choice of the round.

That's not to say that a monk cannot work really well with a group, just that it seems like something about them seems to bring out the inner loner or something to an unusual degree. I feel like I'm more likely to see a wild magic sorcerer try to coordinate with the group than a monk.

This is super weird since the Monk toolkit actually lets them work well with any party makeup, really.

Run in, Stun, enemies auto fail their Dex saves. Run out, you'll have the speed. Mage proceeds to Fireball or Lightning Bolt.

[Hypersmith]

I've never played monk, but the player in my game who used to asked to switch because he felt he was too much of an edge lord, even though it wasn't that bad. I let him switch, but all the same it's interesting, because I think Monks can make for some great teammates.

[Vaz]

To be honest I'm not usually much of a fan of monk players. The class itself is fine with a diverse toolkit that allows them to do a bunch of different/unusual things. While nothing about the monk class or those abilities prevent them from being used in ways that leverage their strengths with that of the party & vice versa, monk players in my experience are more often than not looking/trying to play some weird loner that only strategizes their wide toolkit of at a whim options with the group if the rest of the group happens to do something that by chance fits in nicely with wanna be Bruce lee's random choice of the round.

That's not to say that a monk cannot work really well with a group, just that it seems like something about them seems to bring out the inner loner or something to an unusual degree. I feel like I'm more likely to see a wild magic sorcerer try to coordinate with the group than a monk.

I have a monk player who doesn't know how to use Stunning Strike, or Flurry of Blows after 8 months of playing it weekly.

[MeeposFire]

The monk is a very specific class (not very broad in scope compared to most other classes like the fighter or rogue) and has very specific roles. His role is essentially a mish mash of striker and controller. He has the mobility to get to their chosen target but unlike a traditional striker he does not eliminate the target through high damage and rather does it through stunning. His special defenses allow him to survive this role so long as he does not try to do a straight forward assault on a group of enemies. His skills also make him well suited to finding and reaching his target potentially from stealth.

Fairly specific but useful.

[Citan]

What party role does the Monk fill? What role ought he fill?

Striker
At first glance, Monks appear to fill a striker role. But when one does the math, they fall behind other strikers in DPR (see Kryx's spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1952512856) for one example, others have crunched roughly the same numbers). They fall a little behind a warlock casting Agonizing EB.

Some archetypes add to this role. Shadow and Kensai both make the monk a better striker, but he's still nothing like a rogue.

Controller
At second glance, Stunning Strike is exceptionally powerful. Stun is a powerful effect, and the monk can perform up to his level in strikes every rest. So now the monk looks a bit like a controller with backup DPR. The problem: the base monk has no other control features. No other saves, no athletics expertise for grappling (not that a monk would have the strength for it), and no other effects besides stun.

The Open Hand archetype increases the monk's control effects significantly. He can now prone (DEX save), push (STR save), prevent reactions (no save), give himself Sanctuary after a long rest (limited in use, though), and eventually inflict Death (CON save) on enemies. An Open Hand monk does fit what we might expect of a melee controller. But does he do so as well as a Bladesinger? Probably not. His advantage there is that he's hard to kill, which brings me to...

Defender
At third glance, Evasion, Purity of Body, Diamond Soul, Stillness of Mind, Unarmored Defense, Patient Defense, and Deflect Missiles all lend themselves to a Defender role. The monk is difficult to stop. However, his low HP, inability to use shields, lack of Uncanny Dodge or an easy source of damage resistance, and inability to redirect attacks from allies to himself all make him more frail to melee than he ought to be and unable to adequately defend party members. The most defensive thing a monk can do for the party is chain-stun a troublesome enemy, an effort that will fail if the creature has a high CON save.

More Confusion
Other monk archetypes further confuse. Elements, Tranquility, Sun Soul, and Long Death all add a mixture of abilities that make thematic sense, but don't fit a specific role. Elements and Sun Soul, in particular, turn the monk into a lesser blaster on top of all of the above. Talk about a character who can't make up his mind!

Not a team player
Lastly, all of the base monk's supportive abilities target the monk exclusively. There are no beneficial auras here.

So what is the monk?
Monks don't obviously fill any role. They don't fit neatly within a standard party (ex: fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric). They seem intended for unorthodox parties where everyone partially fills a few roles and the overlap is necessary. A party of only monks with different archetypes might even work, and the monk is one of the few classes we can say that about. A monk partnered with three gnome casters, all concentrating on different buffs for the monk and hiding in his bag of holding, would be a sight to behold, given the monk's high saves and mobility. But the same can be said of a Paladin, who shares the monk's high saves and can summon his own steed.

Some have reworked the monk into more of a striker. Many have reworked individual archetypes, myself included (looking at you, Way of Elements). Regardless, the monk is perplexing.

Thoughts?
Hi!

I agree with you that it's difficult to assess a Monk's role, especially if you don't take the archetypes into account.
And he's much more built as a self-sufficient class overall than some others.
At core though, I'd say the Monk is a Striker.

Because Monk deals exponential damage with each further member added to the party.
That's right, I think he's a Striker especially (only?) because of Stunning Strike + Extra Attack put on top of a class with extreme mobility.
Because in my view, the Striker is the one that can deal a decisive blow to enemy forces. And disabling a foe while enhancing damage dealt to him fits that definition imo.

You can rush through and either Grapple an enemy back into the middle of your own allies or just Stun him there and fall back, letting your allies unleash their own power hereafter.

Beyond that, I'd say that it is the choice of archetype that tailors the role:
- Open Hand for "soft control" available immediately (and the best single-target damage potential at 17th level).
- Shadow for scouting/sneaking, some control against ranged (Darkness) and casters (Silence) (and a tad of soft control at 17th level).
- Long Death for early mass control (and decent single-target damage at 17th level).
- Sun Soul for better damage (ranged, AOE).
- 4E to complement in any role you want, although some roles would come online only for a very small portion of players (Fireball at 11, Walls X coming at 17th level). But 4E has one of the best potentials of all archetypes whatever role you look at except sneak (before SCAG, 4E ended as the prime choice in control and damage, now clearly bested by Long Death and Sun Soul in their respective areas).

The only big true problem of 4E being the very few number of abilities known: I guess they did that to avoid some apparent unbalance with other classes in terms of how much they can do, but since most 4E abilities cost one point more than in other archetypes I'd say it would have been fair to compensate by higher versatility. That's why in my games any player who would want to play 4E would be allowed one more discipline known each step.
Also, imo 4E would be hugely better if all Disciplines had a scaling part, including the push/pull ones (not scaling on damage -which is there already-, scaling on the forced move effect).

As for being a defender, indeed, a Monk lacks Protection FS or Expertise, and his AC ends at 20 late. But that is normal, he was never supposed to be a sticky one.

I don't agree that there is confusion brought by the archetypes.
The Monk IS supposed to be versatile but versed on the offense side, that's kinda the point of having strong self defenses against spells/ranged attacks and great mobility in the first place: you must swap between front lines and back lines as needed to help anyone in need.
The archetypes just allow you to choose your preferred type of offense, that's all. ;)

And saying that Monk is not a team player is making a big, sad confusion between the class and the player (beyond forgetting all the things a Monk can do that benefit the team thanks to built-in features).
The fact that most defensive features are targeting Monk only is totally irrelevant.
Stunning Strike makes AOE and attacks easier.
Darkness can disable a group of archers or otherwise provide cover for the group as they advances. Silence + Grapple makes a Monk an effective caster disabler, even if only for a few rounds (wouldn't expect caster's allies to sit idle ;)).
Open Hand can put people prone to help his melee pals (and it's a save, so lack of Expertise is irrelevant).
"Fear as an action" is easily the most teamplay thing any Monk could do at that level.
Push/Pull/Prone/Block are things a 4E can also do to help a caster hit more people with an AOE or help an ally avoid danger. Later, can Fly an ally to safety or Grapple and drop an enemy from heights, or protect a side of party with Wall of Fire/Stone.
Also, you can always Help. ^^

The plain idea of "a class being not a teamplayer" is devoid of meaning, because it's the player that decides what to do in the end. But beyond that, any one reading classes with a bit of care can see that WoTC payed real attention to give teamworking tools to each and every one of them.

[MaxWilson]

What party role does the Monk fill? What role ought he fill?
*snip*
Some have reworked the monk into more of a striker. Many have reworked individual archetypes, myself included (looking at you, Way of Elements). Regardless, the monk is perplexing.

Thoughts?

Shadow Monks excel at the recon-in-force role. Anything they can't kill outright, they can hide from or run from. This allows the party to engage the enemy on their own terms. It's great for a Combat As War campaign. In Combat As Sport though, the DM fills the role of ensuring that there are never too many monsters for you, rendering the monk largely superfluous.

They also make excellent spies and assassins, due to not needing any weaponry or magical paraphernalia. You can dress a monk up in a waiter's costume and he's still perfectly good at his job. The wall-crawling, teleporation, illusions, etc. is just icing on the cake.

Finally, during combat, they are pretty good at disabling key foes with Stunning Strike. Anti-spellcaster, anti-vampire, etc. Obviously this is a team ability, both in terms of proactively protecting teammates against enemy spells and abilities, and because Stunning a target means others will have advantage to attack it.

Shadow Monks can be decent tanks (especially if you combine Darkness + Alert feat for AC 18+ with disadvantage to attackers) and they even do respectable melee damage. (Their ranged damage is mediocre, but they still win archery duels due to missile catch--they just win them slowly.)

[Zardnaar]

They are a skirmisher more or less a rogue replacement.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

I tend to think of them as the martial 5th man to counter balance the Bard as the Spellcasting 5th man, so I guess the Monk would be the 6th man? Mobile melee single target control with light aoe

[Lombra]

I play it more on the control-side, getting the most out of mobility and stunning strike to interfere with the enemies or zap to an ally to help him. When damage is needed (especially versus nonmagical resistance threats) the monk can hold his own with up to 4 attacks, his squishyness makes it really hard to play constantly in the face of the enemies but other than combat, I think that his kit is also pretty useful in any other pillar to scout, infiltrate and be always armed whrn suddem danger comes.

[Specter]

Monks don't have one specific role, but that's far from a problem. Their magic is adapting to each situation, like Bards and Druids.

And I don't think that not buffing friends equals bad team play. At the very least, everyone can appreciate a stunned enemy.

[Easy_Lee]

Thanks for the comments.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that monks can't be team players. I meant only to say that monks have no inherent abilities (sans some archetypes) that directly buff the party. Compare with most rogues and barbarians, contrast with clerics and paladins.

That said, it does seem that monk players are disproportionately loners.

[Citan]

Thanks for the comments.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that monks can't be team players. I meant only to say that monks have no inherent abilities (sans some archetypes) that directly buff the party. Compare with most rogues and barbarians, contrast with clerics and paladins.

That said, it does seem that monk players are disproportionately loners.
Hmm, I really wonder why you would say that. Aren't you talking about Rogues here? :smallbiggrin:

Putting archetypes aside, in fighting Rogues have absolutely zero built-in "teamwork feature". Nada. Only Expertise can be suited as such, but that is per the choice of player to fit his Rogue as a Shover expert in combat.
Same as how, outside encounters, a Rogue could fit himself to be or a Scout expert for traveling, or a Social expert for non-hostile encounter (and mainly thanks to Reliable Talent in both last cases, since WIS is usually low and CHA a dump stat).

Considering (official) archetypes, Assassin is as a loner as anyone could go, Thief's main ability like expertise has no teamwork orientation in itself (although one can certainly help the party much with proper use of objects such as caltraps or the Healer feat), Swashbuckler has one distinctive feature that directly affects the party, both in a good (enemy is forced to fight you) and a bad way (effect ends as soon as party hurts it IIRC). Even an Arcane Trickster, while having the potential to be a great facilitator for others especially once Magical Ambush has been obtained, could still be as easily tailored as a self-centered gish (Shield, Find Familiar, Mirror Image, Blur, Invisibility, Haste, Greater Invisibility can suffice to blow all slots ^^). Only the Mastermind is a teamworker by design thanks to the Help as bonus action and creature's analysis.

As illustrated in a previous post, each Monk archetype brings one or two features that are tailored for teamwork, except Sun Soul (IIRC full damage), in addition to the "understand all languages" for social, and Stunning Strike for combat. Of course it's relatively easy to achieve a close (Comprehend Languages) or better (Hold Person) result with a dip into multiclass, but that is beyond the scope of your thread I'd daresay. :)

So indeed teamwork features are scarce on Monk before you take archetypes into account, they are indeed self-centered (I mean, it was unavoidable, when one spends years just staying alone to think "in itself" XD), but that's as bad or even slightly worse for Rogues. ^^

[Joe the Rat]

Monks are loners because the only ones who can keep up are Rogues, and they're wasting their Cunning Action to hide rather than dash.
Rogue Assassins are just as bad in terms of being lonely.

At core, I see Mobile/Skirmishing Striker/Controller, with an emphasis on Mobile. They have means to get anywhere on the field. Striking out to mes with the back lines is lonely business.

But they can also be your be-anywhere buddy. A monk will be able to get to your rogue for sneak support (or just stun the target on the way past), or set up to hit someone being knocked back, or get in position to push/pull an opponent into danger, or get the loose mook in line for a full line effect. With evasion, you don't even need to get out of the way - you can just Matrix around the lightning bolt. They have a lot of ridiculous self-support so they can operate without having to tag home base (the buffer) too often.

Outside of combat, they can function a lot like the other loner classes: Rogues and Rangers. They'll probably make better Slack, though. The guy that rides midway between your forward and the main group - fast and quiet enough to relay, and to support your scout if he gets in trouble.

[Easy_Lee]

On rogues and Rangers, skill monkey is a necessary role, as is Striker, and both classes have more skill support and damage potential than the monk.

That said, in dungeons it's also necessary for someone to be a forward scout, or at least first in the marching order. Monks seem particularly well-suited to that, especially with the Observant feat. So perhaps that's one good way for a monk to be a strong team player.

All this talk of loners makes me want to see a Monk / Assassin Rogue / Ranger / Fiend Bladelock party.

[Tetrasodium]

Hmm, I really wonder why you would say that. Aren't you talking about Rogues here? :smallbiggrin:

Putting archetypes aside, in fighting Rogues have absolutely zero built-in "teamwork feature". Nada. Only Expertise can be suited as such, but that is per the choice of player to fit his Rogue as a Shover expert in combat.
Same as how, outside encounters, a Rogue could fit himself to be or a Scout expert for traveling, or a Social expert for non-hostile encounter (and mainly thanks to Reliable Talent in both last cases, since WIS is usually low and CHA a dump stat).

Considering (official) archetypes, Assassin is as a loner as anyone could go, Thief's main ability like expertise has no teamwork orientation in itself (although one can certainly help the party much with proper use of objects such as caltraps or the Healer feat), Swashbuckler has one distinctive feature that directly affects the party, both in a good (enemy is forced to fight you) and a bad way (effect ends as soon as party hurts it IIRC). Even an Arcane Trickster, while having the potential to be a great facilitator for others especially once Magical Ambush has been obtained, could still be as easily tailored as a self-centered gish (Shield, Find Familiar, Mirror Image, Blur, Invisibility, Haste, Greater Invisibility can suffice to blow all slots ^^). Only the Mastermind is a teamworker by design thanks to the Help as bonus action and creature's analysis.

As illustrated in a previous post, each Monk archetype brings one or two features that are tailored for teamwork, except Sun Soul (IIRC full damage), in addition to the "understand all languages" for social, and Stunning Strike for combat. Of course it's relatively easy to achieve a close (Comprehend Languages) or better (Hold Person) result with a dip into multiclass, but that is beyond the scope of your thread I'd daresay. :)

So indeed teamwork features are scarce on Monk before you take archetypes into account, they are indeed self-centered (I mean, it was unavoidable, when one spends years just staying alone to think "in itself" XD), but that's as bad or even slightly worse for Rogues. ^^

I think rogues are more likely to make an effort to plan/work with the party because sneak attack is easier that way (need advantage or an ally within 5') & they are traditionally considered to be squishy or at least semisquishy folks who are used to working with an organization (ie thieves' guild & such)... whereas monk is an ill fitting bolt on trying to attract wannabe bruce lee fans to a setting they never really fit in.
Compare druidic magic (phb64 power of nature) to monk magic (phb76 the magic of ki). In one they may or may not draw their power from worshiping gods, the forces of nature, elemental powers, or what have you.... In the other it's an "element of magic flowing through living bodies" (that nobody else uses or references) that they use to "exceed the body's physical capabilities" (no class exceeds physical capabilities, second wind, uncanny dodge, rage, etc are mere parlor tricks), and "hinder the flow of ki in their opponents". That kinda nonsense fits fine in the real world where magic does not exist as a way of explaining various aspects of martial arts training in a simple way... but in a world almost always mired in medieval stasis (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MedievalStasis) for tens of thousands of years (or more) where magic is not only real but studied in its various forms it sets up an "I'm better than you/my magic is better than your base unskilled nonsense" schism right away.


Then you move n o training & aceticism...


T r a i n i n g a n d A s c e t i c i s m
Sm all walled cloisters dot the landscapes o f the w orlds
o f D&D, tiny refuges from the flow of ordinary life,
where time seem s to stand still. The m onks w ho live
there seek personal perfection through contemplation
and rigorous training. Many entered the monastery
as children, sent to live there when their parents died,
when food couldn’t be found to support them, or in
return for som e kindness that the m onks had perform ed
for their families.
S om e m onks live entirely apart from the surrounding
population, secluded from anything that might im pede
their spiritual progress. Others are sworn to isolation,
em erging only to serve as spies or assassins at the
com m and of their leader, a noble patron, or som e other
mortal or divine power.
The majority o f m onks don’t shun their neighbors,
making frequent visits to nearby towns or villages and
exchanging their service for food and other goods. As
versatile warriors, m onks often end up protecting their
neighbors from m onsters or tyrants.
For a monk, becom ing an adventurer m eans leaving
a structured, com m unal lifestyle to becom e a wanderer.
This can be a harsh transition, and m onks don’t
undertake it lightly. Those w ho leave their cloisters take
their w ork seriously, approaching their adventures as
personal tests of their physical and spiritual growth.
As a rule, m onks care little for material wealth and are
driven by a desire to accom plish a greater m ission than
merely slaying m onsters and plundering their treasure.
Oh great... now we mention deities, noble patrons, and assassin training... wait wasn't there a class with an "assassin" archtype?. Where do they live?... not here but far far away cloistered in places where time stands still in a world where medieval stasis has existed for thousands of years. everything about their lore screams "this entire adventure will be about me & me alone or we can ignore all of this crap".

It's not just background fluff that sets them apart though... Compare their UAD & proficiency list to barbarians
Barbarians get light armor, medium armor, & shields. Monks get "None". it doesn't fit with the bruce lee image, so it doesn't even get allowed as a default possibility, one more straw on the "my way is so much better than your base ways that I don't even need to consider it" pile. There's nothing inherently better in 10+wis+dex over 10+con+dex, & you could even make an argument that con has more deadly things to save against while granting the extra Hp needed to survive it, but even barbarians recognize the need to sometimes consider armor. It's not a historical thing either. Mention "templar" and everyone's first thought is a knight in plate armor with a shield & badd ass sword/mace skills, but the knights templar were
one of many monastic orders (http://www.medievalwarfare.info/templars.htm). I'm sure there were some asian ones who went into combat similarly equipped given technological/metalurgic allowances of the region too.

[Theodoxus]

I swapped out my monk because our party actually had two of them - I was far friendlier, more team oriented than the other who climbed onto buildings or up trees to snipe with his longbow :smallconfused: (He was a wood elf, natch.)

Then, found out when I returned with my rebuilt Bard that the other monk player had quite the group sans explanation. So, no we have no monk, have 3 healers and could use another frontliner... /grumble

I don't really want to go back to the DM and hang my head and beg for my old character back - and I know it'll cause some confusion to the other players "Wait, you were a monk, then a bard, and you're back to monk again?"

It wouldn't be difficult if I wasn't tied directly with another player (we're playing brothers... I really don't want to be the schizophrenic one...)

I like monk - I play it as a striker. I know that they're not going to do massive damage, and that's fine, but it's a decent frontliner, so rogues get sneak. it's amazing for chasing down foes - especially those with bonus dash - as their base speed will be faster, and can also bonus action dash for a little while... The group actually liked my monk more - but I figured two was too much, and was willing to swap out... oh well.

[Sir cryosin]

I love the monk I have played 2 shadow Monk ,1 first version kensai, and stared as 4 element but switch to shadow. I want to play long death, sun soul, and new Kensei. Only problem I have had is I get caught up in the flash of spellcaster 's and wish I made a spellcaster. But I always want to come back to monk. They may not be dishing out damage as a paladin. But they deal nice damage better at untell 5th for compared to some classes. What ever archatype you pick will help define what role your filling. Shadow is bad guys nightmare they get in stunning strike and get out. Then for the most part plays like a melee Rogue. Long death plays more to a Frontliner def with temp HP. Open hand is a bit more controller. 4 element's is a mess. Sun Soul is a range kitter with AOE.

[Armored Walrus]

My experience with monks is that they contribute a lot more to the group when the casual player misses a session and I (the DM) run him. ;-) Remembering to use the abilities and remembering to decide between the many different options available to a monk each round based on what can best set up the rest of the group for the round really make a huge difference.

[Citan]

On rogues and Rangers, skill monkey is a necessary role, as is Striker, and both classes have more skill support and damage potential than the monk.

That said, in dungeons it's also necessary for someone to be a forward scout, or at least first in the marching order. Monks seem particularly well-suited to that, especially with the Observant feat. So perhaps that's one good way for a monk to be a strong team player.

All this talk of loners makes me want to see a Monk / Assassin Rogue / Ranger / Fiend Bladelock party.
Agreed on skill support (taking any multiclass out of the equation obviously). Not because of number of skills though (not that important unless very small party), but because Rogue and Ranger get double proficiency on a handful of thems. :)

Disagree on damage potential: while in long fights or encounter-heavy days without much rest the Monk would quickly be outpaced by Rogue, whatever level you consider, they start much better than Ranger and stay competitive all the way in terms of sustained damage in melee, even considering a Hunter Ranger with Horde Breaker (with Ranger trumping everyone obviously when enemies are clustering in small areas). Obviously though, they would drool at the damage of a Sharpshooter Ranger (which could, among other things, easily maintain his concentration on Hunter's Mark or Swift Quiver).

As for nova damage, Monks are first in line for nova damage (apart from Assassin): either by archetypes (4E, Sun Soul, at 3rd level, with Burning Hands) or by class (Stunning Strike at 5th level).
Then they improve in a relatively light fashion thanks to die increase, but in the last tier of play (17+) they overrun basically any martial beyond optimized GWM Barbarian/ GWM or Sharpshooter EK.
- Open Hand has the Palm (10d10 on failed save for 3 Ki points, otherwise insta-kill*. You won't find any better than that, even if it targeting Constitution is a pain).
- 4E has Wall of Fire (obviously variable efficiency, but even just one enemy per turn will amount to 50d8 over a minute for 5 Ki points, not even including the added benefit of having an opaque wall with one harmless side). EK or AT can also get it, but up to 2 per long rest. Which makes a big difference. ;)
- Sun Soul has the ability to upcast Burning Hands up to the level of its choice. Obviously an inefficient way to blow your ki, but well, when you REALLLY need to, you can. ;)
- Same with Long Death for single-target: its not usually a good way to spend your resources, but if you wish so, you can inflict up to 20d10 damage in a single turn.
- Shadow is the only one having no distinctive high-damage ability. ;)


* Quivering Palm is what makes the Monk 18 / Fighter 2 stupidly deadly, whether you use your first action to activate Empty Body or just chains strikes with normal action + Flurry of Blows before activating it. ;)