OOTS #480 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

malakim2099

2007-08-05, 09:50 PM

Ouch.
Hmm... anyone else starting to suspect that Rich has a thing against paladins? O-chul, Miko, Hinjo... all seem to end up fallen or severely humiliated.

Not particularly.

Miko is the classic example of how NOT to play a paladin. Sorry, but she was.

Hinjo was going up against a bad guy that has at least a few extra levels. And honestly, his act of making Redcloak burn up his disintegrate on him (instead of say, punching a nice big hole in the BOAT) was an unintentionally good thing for the good guys. Additionally, Hinjo has shown himself to be a pretty good character (and probably the NPC that Roy's player is getting to use until he gets raised, hehehe). He also has a sense of humor, as well as some rather good cunning, if not necessarily keen strategic sense.

And there's Lien. PALADIN WITH SHARK MOUNT FOR WIN! :smallbiggrin:

Shott

2007-08-05, 09:52 PM

Good comic, but I liked it better before I realized he was alive.

Fighteer

2007-08-05, 09:52 PM

Level 7 Destruction domain spell.

2d6 damage per caster level (max 40d6)
Fortitude save = 5d6 damage.

I guess he made his save.
No, that looked very much like a failed save. I guess Redcloak rolled poorly on damage. :-)

Ertier

2007-08-05, 09:53 PM

Go :redcloak: it's your birthday ohhh ya!!

Surfing HalfOrc

2007-08-05, 09:56 PM

Yikes! Might be time to seriously consider that "Strategic Retreat."

Haley has a LONG way to go, and I don't see how she could get herself, Belkar and Roy's body across the pier with all the hobgoblins in the way.

If there was ever a time for Celia's Booty Amulet, now is it!

Ronsian

2007-08-05, 09:56 PM

Wow, so Hinjos still alive right? RIGHT!?!?!

Dentarg

2007-08-05, 09:57 PM

Much, MUCH pain...

Already anticipating the next comic, very well done.

Lira

2007-08-05, 09:58 PM

Unholy crap. :smalleek: I hope Hinjo's ok.

NeonRonin

2007-08-05, 09:58 PM

Um... ow. Thank the Twelve Gods for paladin-boosted saving throws. So Team Evil loses a Fiendish Octopus, and Team AC gets their leader severely crispified(but only partially). Calling Dr. Bitterleaf, you're wanted to perform a hobgoblin-ectomy at Dock # 3...

Oh. Wait, are the docks technically within the confines of a city? In that case, not good for Belkar...

Then again, is AC still technically a 'city' as opposed to burning mountain of stone and wood? Not to be grim, but that could be a loophole around the whole MoJ... gimme a break, I'm grasping at straws here people...

Anyway, good showing Rich.

16oz

2007-08-05, 09:58 PM

Um, ouchie?!

Things might not look good at this point, but zombies aren't going to do too much to help, with Durkon there to turn them. Healing spells get used up all day long, but them turning attempts are always there when needed. Now, the land based critters that might be summoned? THAT could be trouble. My guess?
Daigo and Kazumi will face their toughest hour as they are pressed into melee along side Elan to keep a stream of lower level beasties from getting onboard. Will they survive the battle? Will their sanity survive the stream of puns needed for Elan to be oddly effective?
Keep up the good work Mr. Burlew! And keep on being in good health!

Dinkyass

2007-08-05, 09:59 PM

Whoa. I hope Hinjo's ok... Nice shot on Redcloak's part though. :smalltongue:

SPoD

2007-08-05, 09:59 PM

Ouch.
Hmm... anyone else starting to suspect that Rich has a thing against paladins? O-chul, Miko, Hinjo... all seem to end up fallen or severely humiliated.

Um, at this point, EVERY major character, good or evil, has been beaten badly at least once. Redcloak himself was beaten senseless by Soon just a little while ago.

I think you're looking for an authorial agenda where there is none.

Xenon

2007-08-05, 09:59 PM

at least he made his saving throw...

Dragon_Keeper

2007-08-05, 10:00 PM

I hope someone on board has a healing spell for Hinjo

Mirage_of_Deceit

2007-08-05, 10:02 PM

Good comic, but I liked it better before I realized he was alive.

Rest easy brother for he will be dead soon.

Or theres gonna be hell to pay :smallfurious:

Chronos

2007-08-05, 10:02 PM

I guess he made his save.Could be either way, actually. Redcloak could be as low as 15th level, and assuming Hinjo is the same level as the Order, 13d10 plus con bonus can sometimes beat 30d6. On the one hand, the disintegrate had a better-than-even chance of killing him if he failed his save (no matter what his con bonus), and he's got great saving throws, especially Fort, both of which would lead to the conclusion that he more likely saved. On the other hand, the number of wound marks on him looks a lot more consistent with "almost dead" than with "down 5d6 points", which would suggest that he failed his save, and just got a lucky roll on the damage dice.

TheElfLord

2007-08-05, 10:02 PM

Wow, I didn't expect the Hinjo/Redcloak fight to be so short. That was quite nice. Its good to see a villian think tactically (take the fight out of the water).

And I'm glad Hinjo didn't die.

Deuce

2007-08-05, 10:04 PM

And I'm glad Hinjo didn't die.

And had the sense to land at the feet of a high-level cleric.

Duke Malagigi

2007-08-05, 10:05 PM

At least Readcloak's one extra spell less. Good job Hinjo. See, that's what paladins are for. Forcing enemy spell casters to waste spell slots and acting as divinely sanctioned meat shields and still surviving. Hopefully nobody else needs to do that.

Shadic

2007-08-05, 10:06 PM

Argh! Hinjo! He's obviously okay, but still, I worry... He just took a Disintegrate.

Durkon is right there though, so he can heal him up... And now how many spells does Redcloak have?

Miraqariftsky

2007-08-05, 10:07 PM

Shadic

2007-08-05, 10:11 PM

Uh oh... Where's Hinjo's sword!? I hope it bounced on the boat, too..

Chrismith

2007-08-05, 10:14 PM

Blazes! I just realized that it was a Disintegrate! I thought that was only an arcane spell? :smallconfused:

As has already been pointed out, it is also a Destruction domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#destructionDomain) spell.

jttm80

2007-08-05, 10:18 PM

Man, with Roy dead, the NPCs sure are getting a lot of screen time...

Mirage_of_Deceit

2007-08-05, 10:19 PM

Hehe, I just noticed Durkon's head in the corner of panel 7 and 8. Don't know why that made me laugh :p

Alex Warlorn

2007-08-05, 10:21 PM

At least Hinjo got out of it alive and Redcloak has one less spell in his arsenal.
And yes, it's possible that Roy's Player is playing Hinjo in the mean time.

This also proves one more thing about Redcloak, he's not going to stop, he won't stop, until everything on two legs with no ability modifiers with a Skill Points bonus is dead, and goes double for anything with levels in a class that features Aura of Good and Smite Evil.

He and Xykon are indeed made for each other.

Oh and Dragon Magazine (We shall miss you when you are gone) stated that the Paladin Code of Conduct does not allow you to proactively kill evil entities "just to be on the safe side" nor can you kill a helpless enemy and Legitimate Authority is only legitimate if the authority figure isn't corrupt.

So Miko was stripped of her paladin status for killing an unarmed old man sitting down, not killing her leader (who she had found had violated the terms of his station).

And once again, we learn that there is more to Redcloak's blood thirsty claim that the SG killed his mother and neighbors just because they were goblins than meets the eye.

Lizardmen_are#1

2007-08-05, 10:24 PM

:eek: for a second there i thought rich had given another PC the boot
i just hate it when main characters get an abrupt boot to the metaphorical sack
i am seriously hoping redcloak bites it sometime soon :smallbiggrin:

Porthos

2007-08-05, 10:25 PM

Look on the bright side... Redcloak is probably out of high level spells now.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Probably. :smalleek:

maitreyi

2007-08-05, 10:27 PM

Oh just kill Redcloak already. I hate him.:smallmad:

Burrito

2007-08-05, 10:27 PM

Yeah, Redcloak is kicking a lot of ass, but he seems to be filling himself with a whole lot of self-righteous fury. Which usually means he is setting himself up for a big-big fall.

skywalker

2007-08-05, 10:28 PM

That.

Was.

Scary.

Hinjo is my hero. Way to take it like a man.

coppro

2007-08-05, 10:29 PM

At least Hinjo isn't dead... negative hitpoints maybe, but if he were dead, he'd be a pile of ashes right now.

the_tick_rules

2007-08-05, 10:29 PM

hooray anti-climaticness.

Cyrano

2007-08-05, 10:32 PM

Long time coming.
Hehehehe...disentegrate...classic.

TroyXavier

2007-08-05, 10:39 PM

One word sums up this comic....Ouch!

DrivinAllNight

2007-08-05, 10:42 PM

At least the octopus is gone, and Hinjo IS at the feet of a good cleric, who will no doubt do some damage to RC soon enough, enough damage to warrant him turning his back on the fight and fleeing so as to not die. Just wondering how he will explain the loss to Xykon, provided xykon even remembers that RC was gonna go off and sink a boat.

one side note, even RC thinks the Lion is real. GO ELAN !!

Niveus Candidus

2007-08-05, 10:44 PM

Even if Redcloak is eighteenth level and dropped a 36D6 green beam into Hinjo, thats only an average of a 126 dmg. He was presumably at full HP before he ate it, and it certainly looked like a failed save to me. That being said, at least he's not a pile of ash right now.

And I don't know if anyone has noticed - but the story has gone beyond the scope of the dungeon. There are no "NPCs" any more. NPCs don't move from their spot, and just are there to tell you that pirates are attacking their town. We now have main characters and secondary characters.

A Large Bear

2007-08-05, 10:45 PM

Nah, Xykon already forgot about the boat. LEt's not fool ourselves.

SurlySeraph

2007-08-05, 10:46 PM

Okay, so Hinjo's not going to be of much further use, Lien's done her part in the water, V is out of spells, Durkon's got to be low on spells by now... things are kinda starting to look bad for the good guys. Oh, and they're going to ignore Elan's illusion now. Hopefully Belkar and Haley will make it back soon - the junk can't hold out for much longer. Maybe Haley will Sneak Attack Redcloak for an insta-kill and send the hobbos fleeing?

RoG623

2007-08-05, 10:53 PM

Where did the octopus go?

Holy_Knight

2007-08-05, 10:55 PM

Ouch! Poor Hinjo... hopefully Durkon can patch him up. As a side note, I'm surprised at the number of people who seem to dislike him. He always seemed like a fairly good guy to me, without the self-righteous fanaticism that everyone always hated about Miko.

Fishies

2007-08-05, 11:00 PM

Maybe Haley will Sneak Attack Redcloak for an insta-kill and send the hobbos fleeing?

But clerics have d8 hit dice; one sneak attack isn't going to finish him off.

Solharath

2007-08-05, 11:01 PM

Was not expecting that, to say the least. Glad to see that Hinjo doesn't have X's in his eyes.

Where did the octopus go?

Poof in the second panel.

Porthos

2007-08-05, 11:03 PM

Was not expecting that, to say the least. Glad to see that Hinjo doesn't have X's in his eyes.

If Hinjo had died, you wouldn't see "X's" in his eyes. You see, they don't call it "disintegrate" for nothing. :smalltongue:

Fitzclowningham

2007-08-05, 11:03 PM

Swordguy

2007-08-05, 11:03 PM

*wince*

That looked like it hurt. Poor Hinjo.

Elderac

2007-08-05, 11:05 PM

Good strip. I was worried about Hinjo there. Redcloak is pretty sharp.

JazzManJim

2007-08-05, 11:07 PM

Geez is every "good guy" who's not OOTS a complete puss?

Ithekro

2007-08-05, 11:13 PM

Odd. I've never seen anyone out for Hinjo's death before.

Well one fiend is going back to its own plane and Redcloaks getting his revenge. His little brother might even be proud of him for this one.
Who of course also died as a side effect of a disintigrate spell. He lived for a little bit as well, but also probably took falling damage.

Now what can Durkon do? (aside from heal Hinjo, and having Hinjo own him three times). He can't effectively call on Thor to bend the rules down south, and Redcloak outclasses him. Multiple PCs maybe against Redcloak alone, but Redcloak with summoned monsters, extra clerics, and part of an army? Their down to their last effective paladins, some soldiers, a spelless wizard, a slightly effective Bard, and Durkon. Even with Haley and Belkar I am starting to wonder if they could defeat them. Sure if Belkar can get close, Redcloak is one dead goblin, but this goblin seens a little too smart for that, plus he knows the Order of the Stick to a point at least.

But the goal is to escape. Taking out Redcloak seems like a bonus at best.

Feels more and more like the ending of the Empire Strikes Back.

Calmness

2007-08-05, 11:14 PM

Nice one. :smallsmile:
So how many times has the order saved Hinjo by now? 4? 5?
lol paladins.

Tirian

2007-08-05, 11:17 PM

At least Readcloak's one extra spell less. Good job Hinjo.

Um, yeah. For an encore, why doesn't he go down and let the hobgoblins stab him for a few minutes -- I bet their swords would be a little more dull after a workout like that!

I'm having some trouble believing that Hinjo took a cleric off the front lines so that he could do something so foolish. For Pete's sake, he could have taken Elan and used a much cheaper illusion if all he was looking for was burning a high level enemy spell. At least he could have let Lien know what he was doing so she could have had a shot at goring Redcloak with her spear.

maximus

2007-08-05, 11:18 PM

So there's a dead octo-fiend and a blasted Hinjo. You almost feel sorry for Redcloak here, especially after reading the Start of Darkness, but it quickly fades. Without Redcloak there, I think the OotS has a much better chance of pulling off a stalemate long enough to get out of there. And we can probably assume that Haley and Belkar are close by this point.

Draz74

2007-08-05, 11:20 PM

Um, at this point, EVERY major character, good or evil, has been beaten badly at least once.

Except :mitd:. Nobody's been able to touch him yet.

Wow. That's the most damage I've ever seen on something in OoTS without X's for eyes.

Except O-chul eating the explosion of the castle (Hinjo freely admits O-chul is "tougher" than him). Besides being Level 8 or so, O-chul must have rolled a natural 18 Constitution! :smallcool:

2007-08-05, 11:20 PM

Geez is every "good guy" who's not OOTS a complete puss?

Why are you people complaining about Hinjo losing?

Miko defeated Redcloak one-on-one a while back, and would've finished him if Xykon hadn't intervened. It's just Hinjo obviously isn't as strong as Miko, hell, even fallen Miko was able to get the upper hand on Hinjo.

As for people who say Rich has something against paladins--might I note that Xykon was able to defeat Durokan, an epic-level wizard, in a one-on-one duel, but a long time later, both Xykon AND Redcloak were defeated by Soon and his ghost paladin buddies? And start of Darkness spoilers:

Oh, and Xykon beat the living hell out of Lirion in their duel. I don't think Lirion landed a single successful spell or damaging attack on Xykon in their battle, the lich just dominated her(figuratively, not Dominate Person). Soon has been the only one who was able to soundly defeat Xykon and Redcloak in battle thus far--and he's an NPC paladin. So yeah, get over it.

Pardon me for being the voice of reason here.

Porthos

2007-08-05, 11:24 PM

Geez is every "good guy" who's not OOTS a complete puss?

Getting hit in the face with (at least) 30d6 damage and surviving is an example of being a "complete puss"??? :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:

You have a much different standard of wussiness than I do, I think. :smallamused:

Wow. That's the most damage I've ever seen on something in OoTS without X's for eyes.

Don't forget that Roy got hit with a Meteor Swarm (32d6 damage - not including a fair amount of damage he took before the Swarm) and lived to tell the tale. Well, for approximately 12 - 18 seconds before the ground finished him off. :smalltongue:

tmacdevitt

2007-08-05, 11:27 PM

Level 7 Destruction domain spell.

2d6 damage per caster level (max 40d6)
Fortitude save = 5d6 damage.

I guess he made his save.

I don't think he did.... He looks pretty racked up to be just 5d6 damage. I think he just took more like 28d6, and Redcloak rolled poorly

Ajikozau

2007-08-05, 11:28 PM

Hinjo is a paladin, why would he need Durkon to heal him up? :smallbiggrin:

Krytha

2007-08-05, 11:29 PM

Noooo Hinjo vs. Redcloak!! I can't have a favourite now!

tmacdevitt

2007-08-05, 11:30 PM

Oh, and Xykon beat the living hell out of Lirion in their duel. I don't think Lirion landed a single successful spell or damaging attack on Xykon in their battle, the lich just dominated her(figuratively, not Dominate Person). Soon has been the only one who was able to soundly defeat Xykon and Redcloak in battle thus far--and he's an NPC paladin. So yeah, get over it.

Pardon me for being the voice of reason here.

Actually in one of the books, didn't a silver dragon defeat both redcloak and Xkon, but Shelby saved them?

Pardon me for bbeing a bigger nerd!:smallbiggrin:

Ithekro

2007-08-05, 11:37 PM

Well there was one other who seem to be defeating Xykon and Redcloak (and their Hobgoblins). (Note: No Cure for Paladin the Blues bonus material spoiler)
The Silver Dragon was beating them until one of their hobgoblin's landed a critical hit. The one dragon that they turning into undead and then blasted to kill Roy.

Hmm, ninja'd. Oh well.

Durkon could always hit him with his hammer...just to be different. (You. Broke. My. Paladin.)

sir_pudding

2007-08-05, 11:37 PM

here are no "NPCs" any more. NPCs don't move from their spot, and just are there to tell you that pirates are attacking their town.

Maybe in your games. In mine NPCs (especially major NPCs) have goals, agendas, and generally lives that don't directly involve the PCs.

Tirian

2007-08-05, 11:39 PM

Why are you people complaining about Hinjo losing?

Never mind losing, I'm complaining about Hinjo picking this fight. Heck, I can't see how he makes the jump from the bow of the boat to the pier, much less be in any condition afterwards to fight a high-level cleric with spells left and an army of hobgoblins between you and getting back on your ship. He's lucky that Redcloak didn't wait a few extra segments to zap him, or else he would be a negative HP and either sinking like a rock or lying on the pier out of anyone's reach.

Wasn't he listening to the whole "Azure City needs a leader, not a paladin" speech?

Oberon

2007-08-05, 11:41 PM

Um, yeah. For an encore, why doesn't he go down and let the hobgoblins stab him for a few minutes -- I bet their swords would be a little more dull after a workout like that!

I'm having some trouble believing that Hinjo took a cleric off the front lines so that he could do something so foolish. For Pete's sake, he could have taken Elan and used a much cheaper illusion if all he was looking for was burning a high level enemy spell. At least he could have let Lien know what he was doing so she could have had a shot at goring Redcloak with her spear.

Good point, except that I'm pretty sure Hinjp had no idea redcloak had disintegrate, and was planning on KILLING Redcloak. I think people are saying that failed in that respect, but at least his stupidly brave plan wasn't a total waste.

Aerysil

2007-08-05, 11:41 PM

That looks like a failed save. 5d6 damage isn't enough to mess Hinjo up like that.

And yes, a failed save against a disintegrate no longer guarantees you immediately turn to dust.

Lucky Hinjo. Probably has 1 hp left.

Otherwise, he would look like the dragon dust pile V made, which is indistiguishable from human, halfling or dwarf dust...

Axl_Rose

2007-08-05, 11:41 PM

YES. Go team evil. AH MA GAD. I love Red Cloak that much more now!

Peregrinus

2007-08-05, 11:43 PM

Sorry, but it has to be pointed out.

Soon was more powerful than both Durokan and Lirion. Perhaps all three were level, say 22, but Durokan was aging (that has serious negative impacts on physical stats), and Liandra... well, that was something else.

Soon, on the other hand, has a template equivalent to that of the ghost template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm). This means he had a CR of at least +2 higher and an ECL of something above 25, plus was likely in a hallowed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm) area. In other words the battlefield itself favored Soon and the SG over R.C. and X.

Mr Wizard

2007-08-05, 11:45 PM

God I hate the Destruction domain!

Disintegrate is a Wizards Spell! Give it up you arcanist wannabe! :smallfurious:

Renegade Paladin

2007-08-05, 11:46 PM

Good comic, but I liked it better before I realized he was alive.
Rest easy brother for he will be dead soon.

Or theres gonna be hell to pay :smallfurious:
Excuse me? Who's going to be paying Hell if one of the comic's best characters doesn't die? Are you suggesting dire consequences for Rich? Because if so, the hilarity of that more than makes up for the comic's lack of punchline. :smallamused:

the_tick_rules

2007-08-05, 11:48 PM

indeed me made his save, but it still hurt.

eilandesq

2007-08-05, 11:50 PM

Nice intimidation move, but if Durkon has a Heal spell left--quite likely, as we've only seen him use one--all of that damage will be gone, and we already know that Redcloak is out of Harm spells, and he already used a Destruction spell today. If Hinjo presses the attack again, at the very least the troops attacking the ship will probably have to come back to save him.

mockingbyrd7

2007-08-05, 11:51 PM

When Hinjo went skeletal I thought he was dead! Wow, that made me go *GASP!*. Great comic.

Oberon

2007-08-05, 11:55 PM

Yo! Mockingbyrd! update your sig!

Icewalker

2007-08-06, 12:06 AM

And Hinjo is wtfpwned. It probably won't kill him even without healing.

I wonder where it'll go from here? He can't easily go back out. If they find out the lion is an illusion, then the boat has little defense left. It's looking bad.

Porthos

2007-08-06, 12:08 AM

BTW: For those of you who still think that Hinjo might have made his save in this comic, I direct you to Comic #453 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html).

In that strip, Hinjo successfully made a save against a Harm spell. He took at least 55 points of damage in that attack, which is just a wee bit more than 5d6 damage (which is the result of successfully saving against Disintegrate). If you compare the "scratch marks" in the two strips, you can see that there are far more marks on Hinjo in today's strip than in #453.

Hinjo failed his save and lived to tell the tale. Well, so far at least. :smalltongue:

Ariko

2007-08-06, 12:16 AM

Duke Malagigi

2007-08-06, 12:17 AM

Um, yeah. For an encore, why doesn't he go down and let the hobgoblins stab him for a few minutes -- I bet their swords would be a little more dull after a workout like that!

I'm having some trouble believing that Hinjo took a cleric off the front lines so that he could do something so foolish. For Pete's sake, he could have taken Elan and used a much cheaper illusion if all he was looking for was burning a high level enemy spell. At least he could have let Lien know what he was doing so she could have had a shot at goring Redcloak with her spear.

He's not stupid enough to intentionaly get hit with disintergrate spell, but Redcloak does have one less spell and Hinjo still survived. Isn't that good in and of its self?

Edivad

2007-08-06, 12:17 AM

I'm surprised! This is a good strip though...as are all!
However, there's something I don't understand...why would Hinjo "bounce back"to the ship just from being blasted by the Disintegrate spell? It would have looked better if he kept "flying"and landed nearly dead at Redcloak feet...'course, that would have sucked for him. :smallbiggrin:

Mordeus_Dire

2007-08-06, 12:18 AM

Yeh, I'm pretty sure Hinjo failed that save. Actually, he's lucky to not be a pile of dust at this point.

Although I am curious how Redcloak managed to cast Disintegrate. I'm pretty sure it's not a cleric spell. Oh well, details.

David Argall

2007-08-06, 12:20 AM

Ouch.
Hmm... anyone else starting to suspect that Rich has a thing against paladins? O-chul, Miko, Hinjo... all seem to end up fallen or severely humiliated.

They are NPCs. They are there to be rescued by the party. They don't have to lose every fight, but if they could handle the forces of evil, what would the PCs be needed for?

As others have suggested, this was probably a failed save. A 12th level paladin with 14 con would have 10+(6x11)+24 hp =100 hp The spell on average does 112 hp if Red is 16th level. Give Hinjo a +2 con item or have Red roll just slightly below average, and Hinjo falls on the deck just in negative hp.

Hinjo continues to unimpress me as a commander. A nice fellow, and brave, which is probably a flaw in a top commander, but he seems to have no strategic sense at all.
Possibly he will wake up and smell the tea and get that ship to sea while he still can, and then Haley and Belkar can either do a little hiding, or can be ferried by Roy's girlfriend.
And no, Redcloak is not going to get stiffed in this fight. He's got a ticket to the finals and is immortal until then.

Oh yes, Miko was able to touch the MitD, for something on the order of 1 hp a hit. Belkar did touch it too, for approximately zero hp a hit. Roy is probably able to hit it hard enough to annoy it a little, which is probably Not a Good Idea.

Porthos

2007-08-06, 12:21 AM

Although I am curious how Redcloak managed to cast Disintegrate. I'm pretty sure it's not a cleric spell. Oh well, details.

Clerics who have the Destruction Domain get it as a Seventh Level Domain Spell. Also, since it is not a part of his "normal" spell list, it's the only time he gets to cast it today. Unless he used his 8th level Domain spot for it, of course. :smallwink:

factotum

2007-08-06, 12:27 AM

He's not stupid enough to intentionaly get hit with disintergrate spell, but Redcloak does have one less spell and Hinjo still survived. Isn't that good in and of its self?

Not really, because it will take a LOT of healing mojo from Durkon to get Hinjo back on his feet and fighting fit--at the very least we're talking a Heal, if he has any left; otherwise he'll have to convert a lot of his prepared spells into Cure Criticals. So, Redcloak loses one spell, the good guys potentially lose a lot more.

In fact, the good guys are in a bad position all round. Once the summoned creatures the hobgoblin cleric send to kill the celestial lion go right through it, Elan's illusion will be broken--the entire hobgoblin force will be free to attack again, and they won't be fooled so easily a second time. Whatever else happens they can't afford to let the hobgoblins aboard the boat--they could easily start slaughtering the civilians aboard if that happens. If they can't drive off Redcloak and the hobgoblins, they're going to have to cut their losses and leave, because Haley and Belkar won't be able to get through the massed hobgoblins to reach them anyway.

Fabio_MP

2007-08-06, 12:30 AM

New comic is up.

good to see you :)

nice comics... and... someone levelled up :)

HonoreDB

2007-08-06, 12:40 AM

So...does Disintegrate knock you backwards? Or did Hinjo somehow manage to swan dive back onto the boat? :smalltongue:

boolean

2007-08-06, 12:48 AM

At least Hinjo isn't dead... negative hitpoints maybe, but if he were dead, he'd be a pile of ashes right now.

Actually, if he was at negative HPs, he'd stil be a pile of dust.
"Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust."

Rockphed

2007-08-06, 12:51 AM

In fact, the good guys are in a bad position all round. Once the summoned creatures the hobgoblin cleric send to kill the celestial lion go right through it, Elan's illusion will be broken--the entire hobgoblin force will be free to attack again, and they won't be fooled so easily a second time. Whatever else happens they can't afford to let the hobgoblins aboard the boat--they could easily start slaughtering the civilians aboard if that happens. If they can't drive off Redcloak and the hobgoblins, they're going to have to cut their losses and leave, because Haley and Belkar won't be able to get through the massed hobgoblins to reach them anyway.

This is where Elan Knowing even 1 actual summon monster spell would be really useful. Bad guys try to run through, it gets an attack of opportunity and possibly takes 1 out. Then Elan can make some illusions just to scare them off.

Shatteredtower

2007-08-06, 01:09 AM

Regarding Hinjo:

Possibly he will wake up and smell the tea and get that ship to sea while he still can, and then Haley and Belkar can either do a little hiding, or can be ferried by Roy's girlfriend.Or it may be that his subordinates will decide it's in his best interests to let him get some rest and make the call to leave on their own authority.

If Hinjo is unconscious right now, it could be from taking falling damage (even nonlethal falling damage) after being reduced to his last few hit points by the disintegrate.

It's at moments like this that I can see why some think Hinjo could be a player's substitute character for Roy. They seem to have similar ideals and approaches to dealing with menaces more powerful than themselves, especially when there's a little something personal involved.

Edit: Sorry about botching the [Spoiler] tag there. Shame on me for posting quickly in a moment of distraction. :smallredface:

Scarab83

2007-08-06, 01:39 AM

I almost wish that had been a killing spell. Something about such an anticlimactic end for one of the main characters strikes me as highly amusing.

Alex Warlorn

2007-08-06, 02:07 AM

Um, yeah. For an encore, why doesn't he go down and let the hobgoblins stab him for a few minutes -- I bet their swords would be a little more dull after a workout like that!

That made me laugh. I don't laugh. Congrats, you made the impossible happen.

Great speech by Redcloak, though. He's evil, but he's in the right when it comes to paladins.

Since the paladin code says you can't kill helpless people, even EVIL helpless people, I think Redcloak's justification is shallow.

Don't forget that Roy got hit with a Meteor Swarm (32d6 damage - not including a fair amount of damage he took before the Swarm) and lived to tell the tale. Well, for approximately 12 - 18 seconds before the ground finished him off. :smalltongue:

Actually Dragon has officially said that 99% of all falls take about one round.

Forealms

2007-08-06, 02:12 AM

I dunno, I think Hinjo will die playing, and I quote, "the heroic knight who goes down fighting the good fight."

Altogether, great comic. I nearly burst out laughing as Hinjo just fell back onto the boat. It just goes to show that anyone who is busy making a climactic speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) will end up being defeated.

Tundar

2007-08-06, 02:17 AM

Dear me, for a second I thought Hinjo was gone for good - phew!
I guess now is the time for another Heal spell from Durkon.

dragoncmd

2007-08-06, 02:17 AM

Well red is a bit more powerful than I previously thought, though I feel sorry for the saphire guard if Hinjo was beaten that easily, though through rules its unclear if there was any other possible consequence.

Correct me if I'm wrong but under 3.5 rules disintegrate deals damage even when the save is failed, so its possible that Hinjo failed his save and barely survived (putting Redcloak's caster level much higher than previously thought, or having a very good role to beat a paladins fort save). The other possibility is that Rich considers disinegrate to be an extremely powerful spell even when someone suceeds at the save, in which case even if an epic level pc jumped off of there the result would have been the same.

Either way, not good for anyone facing Redcloak.

Forealms

2007-08-06, 02:20 AM

Wow. That's the most damage I've ever seen on something in OoTS without X's for eyes.

We've all seen Vaarsuvius's disintegration. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) Quite a bit of damage to take down a young Adult black dragon, and technically there was never the opportunity to see X's for eyes.

Mordeus_Dire

2007-08-06, 02:47 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but under 3.5 rules disintegrate deals damage even when the save is failed, so its possible that Hinjo failed his save and barely survived (putting Redcloak's caster level much higher than previously thought, or having a very good role to beat a paladins fort save). The other possibility is that Rich considers disinegrate to be an extremely powerful spell even when someone suceeds at the save, in which case even if an epic level pc jumped off of there the result would have been the same.

On a passed fortitude save, the victim takes a measly 5d6 damage I believe. For a paladin of his level, this will be at worst a mild wound.
Considering Hinjo passed a save vs. a Harm spell previously and was little more than scratched by the effects, I'd say he failed this save. Which is surprising considering his best save is Fortitude. Still, we all roll badly now and again.
As previously mentioned by Aerysil:

That looks like a failed save. 5d6 damage isn't enough to mess Hinjo up like that
You might be right about Rich juicing up the Disintegrate spell for his use in the comic though.

Luklan

2007-08-06, 02:52 AM

Geez is every "good guy" who's not OOTS a complete puss?

Uhh, what? Hinjo takes a disintegration ray to the face, survives, and you call him a puss? What about O'chul? He got completely asploded by an entire castle, and he's alive. I'm sure that was equal, if not greater than the damage Hinjo just took. But no, he's obviously a wuss as well. (That last sentence is sarcasm, by the way)

Tell ya what, you come back after surviving being hit by a level 15 caster's disintegrate spell, without being dropped into negative hp, and I'll drop both my 'wtf' expression, and the sarcasm.
---
Fun comic as always, Rich! Worth the wait :smallsmile:

Favourite quote;
Hinjo: "Prepare to -"
:redcloak: "Disintegrate"

As much as I love watching the good guys win, stuff like that amuses me no end

Siwenna

2007-08-06, 03:40 AM

Darn, I was really hoping Hinjo would die (I'm evil, I know.) Oh well, it's still a good strip. Redcloak is great.

O.T.R

2007-08-06, 03:48 AM

Aquillion

2007-08-06, 03:59 AM

But if (and that's a big 'if') Hinjo dies from Redcloak's attack- then
who'll get the highly expensive resurrection spell: Hinjo or Roy? The OoTS would have to choose between saving a friend or keeping up the morale of all the survivors or out of guilt for failing to save AC. Hmmm....
Hinjo can't be dying at the moment. In fact, he's required to be conscious, still stable, and technically capable of operating at full strength, since the disintegrate would have turned him to dust if it had knocked him to zero or below. If he has any uses of lay on hands left today, he can even heal himself up a tiny bit.
Regarding the failed save against Redcloak's disintegrate... do we actually know Hinjo's level?

Cyric2

2007-08-06, 04:01 AM

Nice comic.

Caught me off guard because I read 'any' rather than 'many'.

Sneaky bugger. :smallbiggrin:

banjo1985

2007-08-06, 04:32 AM

Hehe, way to make an anti-climax, bet Hinjo will be royally pissed when he recovers!

Good comic, can't wait for the next one...

nagora

2007-08-06, 04:33 AM

NPCs don't move from their spot, and just are there to tell you that pirates are attacking their town.

Boy, someone needs a new DM.

lord_khaine

2007-08-06, 04:37 AM

we have a pretty good idea about Hinjo's lv, we know he is minimum lv 11, since he has 3 attacks per round, but we also know he was weaker than miko.

Purple_cloack

2007-08-06, 04:40 AM

No, Hinjo!

Hinjo survive, thats clear. But maybe , in the moment of doom, haley makes sneak attack to redcloak, and they can escape?

Emperor Ing

2007-08-06, 04:43 AM

Redcloak said he didnt have many spells left! :smalltongue: key word, MANY.

Elfanatic

2007-08-06, 04:45 AM

Goblin Vengeance!

factotum

2007-08-06, 05:03 AM

Hinjo survive, thats clear. But maybe , in the moment of doom, haley makes sneak attack to redcloak, and they can escape?

Haley was last seen outside the city walls--she's nowhere near reaching the junk yet, and when she DOES get there, there's the small matter of a few hundred hobgoblins to get through.

Closet_Skeleton

2007-08-06, 05:19 AM

Dam* you Giant! For one moment I really thought you'd killed Hinjo...

Emperor Ing

2007-08-06, 05:24 AM

:smallconfused: why do ya want hinjo dead?

Delgarde

2007-08-06, 05:59 AM

At least Hinjo isn't dead... negative hitpoints maybe.

Not from a Disintegrate. You don't bleed out from those - you're dust if your hitpoints reach 0.

Geilan

2007-08-06, 06:01 AM

Hehehehehehe

The honor of a paladin may be unbreakable, but the same cannot be said for their bodies or pride.

Fenix

2007-08-06, 06:18 AM

Now then, after seeing the skeleton, I was pretty sure Hinjo wont survive this. :smallsmile: I dont like that character very much, but that would have been very stupid death :smallbiggrin:

SteveMB

2007-08-06, 06:31 AM

Um, yeah. For an encore, why doesn't he go down and let the hobgoblins stab him for a few minutes -- I bet their swords would be a little more dull after a workout like that!

I'm having some trouble believing that Hinjo took a cleric off the front lines so that he could do something so foolish. For Pete's sake, he could have taken Elan and used a much cheaper illusion if all he was looking for was burning a high level enemy spell. At least he could have let Lien know what he was doing so she could have had a shot at goring Redcloak with her spear.

It was a bit reckless, but I think it's in character (especially if Redcloak hadn't used any high-level spells since summoning the octopus, leaving the impression that he was tapped out).

Since you mention illusions, Elan with a nearly full store of his spells and someone advising him how to use them effectively ought to prove useful....

Hoggy

2007-08-06, 06:54 AM

Oh. Oh my.

Redcloak just became awesome.

'Disintegrate'. Teeheehee.

Blaznak

2007-08-06, 07:20 AM

Well after reading Start of Darkness, Redcloak certainly is a more rounded character. I wonder if his dialouge would have made much sense if I hadn't read it, though.

Still, a fun strip...

Later!

Solara

2007-08-06, 07:46 AM

Oh God, that 'disintegrate' panel scared the hell out of me. :smalleek:

Elan should send illusion leaping over the side of the boat to use up more of Redcloak's high level spells - it should work at least once.

And 'one village plus 35 years interest'? Confirms what a lot of us already guessed, but intriguing none the less...

edit: Also, would Redcloak have had a chance to cast that spell if Hinjo hadn't shouted out a warning before attacking? You know, I love the guy and I'll love it even more if he goes adventuring with the OotS, but yeesh, that whole 'paladin' thing can be a real liability...

edit2: On second thought, it's just as well that he did. Otherwise Hinjo might have gotten down to the docks, got a free hit in...then been hit by the spell and been stranded and helpless away from the ship.

Nightfall

2007-08-06, 07:58 AM

Poor Hinjo! At least he doesn't have the little "X's" in his eyes...:smalleek:

Iranon

2007-08-06, 08:11 AM

For a moment I believed we had a dead paladin...

Hmm, Hinjo is probably a little sick of being beaten silly by now.

However, I don't see why so many people take issues with his poor combat record, or take it as evidence that Rich is on a crusade against paladins.
Hinjo has been shown as generally responsible, level-headed, likable and a good example of a paladin that most would find admirable or at least bearable. We don't know his age, but he is probably young enough that he can be forgiven for not acting like a battle-hardened veteran of a thousand sieges.

On the other hand, I can't deny that I found it amusing to see him whipped after the trash-talking he's prone to.

It's only conjecture, but it's also quite possible that he's about as unoptimised for combat/warfare as a paladin can get... diplomat and nobleman first, warrior second. If that is the case, Miko's estimate of him being second only to her in terms of sheer prowess is quite impressive - even though the gap was enormous.

Alyorbase

2007-08-06, 08:14 AM

Great job Giant. Destruction domain FTW! :smallamused:

Archpaladin Zousha

2007-08-06, 08:43 AM

All I can say is,

:smallsigh: Whew! That was close! I was worried that Durkon would have to ressurect Hinjo now as well!

Drizzt

2007-08-06, 09:24 AM

As much as i like hinjo i have to admit that was awesome on redcloaks part.

Great job giant, still waiting for haley and belkar to come

PhallicWarrior

2007-08-06, 09:24 AM

Ohhhh! Right in the ole' breadbasket! Hinjo's got to be getting tired of this by now.

Traker

2007-08-06, 09:32 AM

ya that was i thot that it was going to be the close of Hinjo to.
but i'm glad his live and well not lively but his ulive

Calemyr

2007-08-06, 09:47 AM

Hinjo's action was possibly the best gambit they had available given the information they had at the time. By removing Redcloak, they could have dashed goblin morale quickly, and a spell drained paladin is more dangerous than a spell drained cleric. Now the boats best defenders are Durkon and Elan... *shudder* Okay, Durkon.

Durkon vs Redcloak would be a very interesting duel, since one is effectively artillery and the other is effectively a tank despite both being clerics. I must admit I'm curious to see what kind of weapon Redcloak would pull use when his magic fails him.

Elan may yet provide at least one more advantage through a use of Pyrotechnics and another illusion: make the celestial lion seem to explode and use the illusion to make it look like the end of the pier has been demolished, and thus the boat seemingly inaccessable. Or, while the lion has them distracted, put ten more feet of illusory pier and hope the goblins literally take a long walk off a short pier. Illusions can be really rather useful if you just use some creativity.

Kesnit

2007-08-06, 09:47 AM

It was a bit reckless, but I think it's in character (especially if Redcloak hadn't used any high-level spells since summoning the octopus, leaving the impression that he was tapped out).

Since you mention illusions, Elan with a nearly full store of his spells and someone advising him how to use them effectively ought to prove useful....

You assume Elan has useful spells... For all we know, Elan's spell list could look like this...

4th
Zone of Silence, Shadow Conjuration, Secure Shelter

3rd
Daylight, Glibness, Major Image, Tiny Hut

2nd
Minor Image, Mirror Image, Silence, Whispering Wind

1st
Disguise Self, Hypnotism, Silent Image, Ventriloquism

0th
Dancing Lights, Daze, Light, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Summon Instrument

Calemyr

2007-08-06, 09:59 AM

Ganurath

2007-08-06, 10:09 AM

Casual blasting of the former ruler of Azure City followed by a catchy counterpoint? Redcloak stock must be going up today, although I have to wonder why he couldn't see through the illusion.

silvadel

2007-08-06, 10:33 AM

Actually I always wonder why people use 6 for the hit points... Yes 5.5 is average for a d10 BUT how many PCs do you let keep rolls of 1 or 2 on a d10 as a fighter class? I mean rolling a couple of 1s for hit points is the worst possible thing that can happen to you as a warrior (and very odd in this world of point buys that we let two warriors in the same party and the same level have 20 rolled hit points or 80). When rolling important or at least high level NPCs in particular I figure that a warrior who rolled LOW on their hit points probably wouldnt have survived to higher levels very well, so the "average" rolls for a level 12 paladin are going to be Higher than average...

IE at level 4 you have 10% paladin, 30% paladin, 60% paladin, and 90% paladin... HP 16, 22, 29, and 36. Which ones are more likely to survive to level 12?

At any rate if hinjo is level 12, I would guess he has at least 7x12=84 hit points before con is applied. If we assume a +3 or +4 con bonus from a combo of items and con score that is another 42 or so giving him about 126. If redcloak is level 17 that would be 34d6(average 119) which means hinjo actually is in the meaty section of the curve on the slightly higher than average section of the die roll.

chibibar

2007-08-06, 10:44 AM

No X eye, no dead :) Hinjo lives

Top that off Durkon is right next to him..... he'll get patch up :)

Cause if Hinjo didn't save, Hinjo would have been a pile of ash.

factotum

2007-08-06, 10:52 AM

0th
Dancing Lights, Daze, Light, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Summon Instrument

You forgot that we know Elan has Mending as one of his cantrips. (He used it on the inn door after rescuing Haley).

Nakun

2007-08-06, 10:54 AM

Wow, that was great! So...unexpected. At least Hinjo lived; I hope Durkon has one cure spell left so that we get to see the fight continue.

Mugen Nightgale

2007-08-06, 11:03 AM

Pretty stupid move from Hinjo, what is he thinking jumping on a high level evil cleric that way? He is a paladin not a friggin dashing swordsman. gosh

Antamar

2007-08-06, 11:33 AM

You assume Elan has useful spells... For all we know, Elan's spell list could look like this...

4th
Zone of Silence, Shadow Conjuration, Secure Shelter

3rd
Daylight, Glibness, Major Image, Tiny Hut

2nd
Minor Image, Mirror Image, Silence, Whispering Wind

1st
Disguise Self, Hypnotism, Silent Image, Ventriloquism

0th
Dancing Lights, Daze, Light, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Summon Instrument

Don't forget Summon: Plot Exposition:smallsmile:.

Porthos

2007-08-06, 11:34 AM

Actually Dragon has officially said that 99% of all falls take about one round.

Perhaps. But that directly goes against the SRD (and Comic #443):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm

Minimum Forward Speed

If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

So depending on you interpret that a creature either falls 150 feet in the first round and 300 feet each round afterward, or it falls 300 feet per round regardless (because it wasn't flying initially).

This is pretty much the only place in the entire SRD that deals with Rate of Falling. It is also entirely consistent with what happened in Comic #443 where at least 2 to 3 rounds passed before Roy went kersplooie. :smallsmile:

And I won't even get into the headache inducing problem about being suspended in mid-air when your Jump Roll exceeds your movement rate for a round. :smalltongue:

ilikebasketball

2007-08-06, 11:35 AM

As others have suggested, this was probably a failed save. A 12th level paladin with 14 con would have 10+(6x11)+24 hp =100 hp The spell on average does 112 hp if Red is 16th level. Give Hinjo a +2 con item or have Red roll just slightly below average, and Hinjo falls on the deck just in negative hp.

minor points: first level = max hitpoints, and disintegrate to 0 = you turn to dust

For ease, assume he's 13th level, that's 10+2 hp more (or 112). Redcloak could've rolled one under average, or hinjo could have had a +4 con item... or hinjo could just have a high con to begin with *and* an item (being the heir in a backstabbing world means taking a high con isn't a bad idea).
Or...

BUt he was damn lucky to fall down, hit the deck, and because of that, pass out. It meant he was very close.

It's a nice way of the giant to build up for the confrontation (ooooh... redcloak vs Hinjo! Tough fight!) and having a reasonably realistic ending without any of them dying (so we can see even bigger finale's!)

silvadel

2007-08-06, 11:48 AM

Going by the eyes it looks like TG plays disintigrate the same way I do (regardless of what the SRD says)... I only dust someone if they are -10ed.
Kind of silly to dust someone at 0 anyway because at 0 you can still do partial actions. 0 normal partial actions -1 to -4 normal / \. -5 to -9 loss of a limb or two requiring regenerate... -10 and down poof.

Niveus Candidus

2007-08-06, 11:53 AM

A few things:

1) NPCs are absolutely there to tell you that pirates are attacking there town. Preferrably, they do not change their dialogue after the pirates are defeated. Its a reference!

2) Redcloak went toe to toe with Miko, who defeated the Order of the Stick single handedly twice. He has gained xp since, and that fight might have been a show in its entiredy.

3) Tiny Hut is one of the most disgustingly broken spells available to bards. Not nearly as good as

4) Silence, which it were utilized here would have left Hinjo fine and without A GREEN BEAM to his face.

Drizzt

2007-08-06, 11:55 AM

What! I for one cant believe Lien just sat there and watched it. Unless she tries to avenge her fallen leader She is going to my "hate" list

Kesnit

2007-08-06, 11:57 AM

Kesnit, even those spells could be put to good use in the hands of a creative mind.

First, create a zone of silence centered on the pier, then use your illusion spells to create illusory paladins to step out of the crowd in the boat and take their place at the end of the pier (since Zone of Silence will be in place, even silent image can be used, making it possible to build up an even more impressive illusory force). Also, don't underestimate Shadow Conjuration, as that can be a nasty power as well (conjure a shadow lion - it will boosts the credibility of itself and the other one when it drags its claws through its first goblin).

I should have explained my thinking. Yes, several of the spells I picked could be useful - specifically the illusion ones. (We know Elan likes Illusions, which is why they were on the list.) But I intentionally picked other spells that, while useful at the right time, might not be terribly helpful at the moment.

mikeejimbo

2007-08-06, 12:44 PM

YES! Go Redcloak, that was awesome!

Oh yeah, Hinjo - Sorry. Never had anything against you. I mean, it's not your fault that you come from a society of genocidal maniacs any more than it's Redcloak's fault that HE comes from a society of genocidal maniacs.

Hmm... maybe everyone is genocidal...

Alfryd

2007-08-06, 01:09 PM

New comic is up.
Eh, Not Bad.

Ah, crap, innocent civilians.
There goes my 'Redcloak the Comparatively Benevolent Dictator' scenario.

Mad Scientist

2007-08-06, 01:28 PM

Wow that looked like it hurt :smalleek: Good thing Durkon is right next to him. Can't wait for Haley and Belkar to show up!

David Argall

2007-08-06, 02:37 PM

Hinjo's action was possibly the best gambit they had available given the information they had at the time.

Their best gambit was sailing away some time ago. Their current best gambit is the same thing.

The information they have is that they are facing overwhelming force whose victory they can do no more than delay. [If it was otherwise, they would still be back on the city wall.]

On the other side they see no sign of the rescue party, which has no obvious way of reaching the ship at all now.

Staying there at all, to say nothing of attacking the cleric, was heroic, and stupidly so.

Oh yes, Redcloak charges a real high rate of interest. 1 village and 35 years of interest should hardly be more than a town.

fractal

2007-08-06, 03:01 PM

Oh yes, Redcloak charges a real high rate of interest. 1 village and 35 years of interest should hardly be more than a town.
And here I thought Lien was the person with a loan shark.

One Skunk Todd

2007-08-06, 03:13 PM

If Hinjo is incapacitated* I wonder if Captain Axe will sail now. He seems quite impatient for some reason. :)

*I realize Disintegrate would have dusted him if he was below 0, maybe he was very low and the impact with the deck knocked him under.

kalo

2007-08-06, 03:19 PM

No, that looked very much like a failed save. I guess Redcloak rolled poorly on damage. :-)

no if it was his body would of desapeared like with the cleric duel

dsavereide

2007-08-06, 03:25 PM

Pallidans best trait (dedication to their cause) so often leads to their biggest fault - arrogance. Unselfish dedication is why we admire them. Arrogance is why we hate them.

2007-08-06, 03:27 PM

Thats why I love Redcloak.

Porthos

2007-08-06, 03:41 PM

no if it was his body would of desapeared like with the cleric duel

Disintegrate was changed in 3.5. In previous editions of the game it was a Save or Die spell. Now it is a If You Take Enough Damage to Go Zero or Negative, You Turn to Dust Spell.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm

A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated.

Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting.

Chronos

2007-08-06, 03:42 PM

Kesnit, even those spells could be put to good use in the hands of a creative mind.Especially Silence. That's not just a spell that's useful "in certain circumstances", that's a spell that's useful in this exact circumstance. I don't know who would win, in a fair fight between Hinjo and Redcloak. I do know who would win, in a fight between Hinjo and Redcloak where Redcloak can't cast any spell with a verbal component. The primary purpose of the Silence spell is and always has been to quickly disable enemy spellcasters. Yes, there are countermeasures, like the Silent Spell feat, but how many of Redcloak's spells do you think he prepared silenced?

factotum

2007-08-06, 03:42 PM

What! I for one cant believe Lien just sat there and watched it. Unless she tries to avenge her fallen leader She is going to my "hate" list

She had no time to react. Hinjo jumps over the ship's rail (which she didn't know he was going to do at that moment) and Redcloak hits him with the Disintegrate almost instantly (he only had time to travel a few feet). Also, if she DOES try to "avenge" her leader, then we can immediately put her in the Lawful Stupid alignment. Hinjo is higher level than she is, and Redcloak just took him out of the fight with a single spell--she'd have to be insane to get up on that dock and try to fight him, especially with dozens of hobgoblins around.

As David Argall said, their best chance now is to escape. There's no way Haley and Belkar can get through that crowd of hobgoblins to reach them. If they sail away they can at least try and arrange some sort of rendezvous tomorrow, when Durkon can prepare a Sending spell to talk to Haley.

Silverblaze

2007-08-06, 03:51 PM

We've all seen Vaarsuvius's disintegration. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) Quite a bit of damage to take down a young Adult black dragon, and technically there was never the opportunity to see X's for eyes.

Ahhh... On still has to admire Vs final coment in the above referred to panel... For an off hand remark, it leaves such a lasting impression :smallcool: :smallbiggrin:

Silverblaze

2007-08-06, 03:54 PM

As David Argall said, their best chance now is to escape. There's no way Haley and Belkar can get through that crowd of hobgoblins to reach them.

Well - on that account I would deem their chances to be quite fair - All they have to do is follow "the path of plot" - That being if Mr. G actually wants them to get through that is :smallbiggrin:

Baalzebub

2007-08-06, 04:31 PM

Either Hinjo made his save, or he has a lot of HP. That one hurt!! good comic Giant!!:smalltongue:

Mongo 900 B.C

2007-08-06, 05:38 PM

Belkar Bitterleaf you are needed in the docks belkar bitterleaf you are needed in the...*buzzing gnoises* AHHHHH!!!!!!

(edit) Is oots doomed?

Balance

2007-08-06, 05:45 PM

I would just like to say that I watched several episodes of "Doctor Who" before reading this comic, and I distinctly heard the verbal component of Redcloak's spell as "DIS-IN-TE-GRATE" in a grating, metallic voice. Especially with the whole visible-skeleton flash thing.

Dalek-Caan move over, Dalek-Red is in the house. :smallbiggrin:

NephandiMan

2007-08-06, 05:48 PM

And here I thought Lien was the person with a loan shark.

Well, Hinjo did imply that her mount was unique in Azure City - it could still be a lone shark.

gamerboy6000

2007-08-06, 06:34 PM

The only thing I'm wondering is how OOTS is going to get out of this one:smallconfused:

Posted at top of page: Redcloak went toe to toe with Miko, who defeated the Order of the Stick single handedly twice. He has gained xp since, and that fight might have been a show in its entiredy.

He didn't defeat her though, and the OOTS has gained XP as well:smallamused:

Traker

2007-08-06, 07:00 PM

aftur he fot miko he gande xp.
i didint no that

Solara

2007-08-06, 07:16 PM

aftur he fot miko he gande xp.
i didint no that

Was that English? :smallconfused:

If you're asking whether Redcloak has gained XP, he's killed a lot of people since then so it makes sense. I haven't seen any evidence of him gaining a level, however, so he wouldn't necessarily be any more powerful.

Nightfall

2007-08-06, 07:17 PM

Elan may yet provide at least one more advantage through a use of Pyrotechnics and another illusion: make the celestial lion seem to explode and use the illusion to make it look like the end of the pier has been demolished, and thus the boat seemingly inaccessable. Or, while the lion has them distracted, put ten more feet of illusory pier and hope the goblins literally take a long walk off a short pier. Illusions can be really rather useful if you just use some creativity.

That's why it's a good thing Vaarsuvius has Elan's back; Elan is sweet, honest, loyal and courageous, but not very imaginative. V was the one directing the illusion, telling Elan what to make it do.

Fedifensor

2007-08-06, 08:10 PM

Scarab83

2007-08-06, 09:05 PM

aftur he fot miko he gande xp.
i didint no that

:smallfrown:

cavalier973

2007-08-06, 09:20 PM

I did NOT expect that! Hinjo's been fried! Noooooo! :smalleek:

Actually, it is, as always, great!

It kinda reminds me of, um, a certain part in Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark. Remember when a Bedouin/Arab master of the scimitar challenged him to a duel? He was shoring off his fancy swordplay when suddenly, BANG! Bedouin swordmaster's down with just one revolver shot!

Blazes! I just realized that it was a Disintegrate! I thought that was only an arcane spell? :smallconfused:

You know, that scene (in Raiders) was supposed to have Indy showing off his fancy whip skills...but Harrison Ford had diarrhea that day, and convinced Spielburg to let him just shoot the guy (it's true! you can find it on Snopes)

Verick Severith

2007-08-06, 09:30 PM

Good Comic! I hope Hinjo will make it though.

Damn Redcloak! He'll get his, soon!

Doug Lampert

2007-08-06, 09:44 PM

Well, we know that Redcloak is at least 15th level, since he can cast extended Summon Monster VII.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html

That puts the Disintegrate at a minimum of 30d6, and I'm in agreement that Hinjo probably failed his save, was dropped to just a few hit points, then went unconscious from the fall to the deck.

Given the amount of high-level spells he's been tossing around (Destruction, Blade Barrier, etc), I suspect he's higher level than 15th.

Hmm - I wonder what metamagic feat gives blowback on spells...I'm not sure how Disintegrate knocked Hinjo back to where he jumped from...

...oh, wait, I do. The "dramatic license" metamagic feat. :)
I agree that was clearly a failed save. A Paladin of that level with a Con booster can easily live through that sort of thing.

Did Hinjo run out of movement in midair? Did Redcloak have a readied disintegrate for flying paladins in mid air? (Yeh, right, if he'd just readied it for a moving Paladin he'd have gone before the jump, if he'd delayed it would go after Hinjo finished). So by the book Redcloak didn't use the disintegrate midjump.

By the rules Hinjo was hit either before he jumped at all or after he landed on the dock. Based on where he fell he was hit prior to actually jumping, showing him as being hit in the air was dramatic license.

Point is that while the rules don't include knockback for Disintigrate, but they also make it absurdly unlikely that Hinjo NEEDED to be knocked back to land of the ship.

Charles Phipps

2007-08-06, 10:24 PM

I almost wish that had been a killing spell. Something about such an anticlimactic end for one of the main characters strikes me as highly amusing.

Meh, we had that for Roy.

Olorin93

2007-08-06, 10:50 PM

Disintegrate was changed in 3.5. In previous editions of the game it was a Save or Die spell.

SoD spoiler:

So since the OOTS-verse converted to 3.5 at OOTS #1, it was Save or Die for Redcloak's brother; Redcloak knew that it wouldn't just wound him....

Heron

2007-08-07, 02:01 AM

She had no time to react. . .

And it's not like she wasn't busy herself, dealing with a fiendish giant octopus and what not. :smallwink:

Acyberexile

2007-08-07, 09:40 AM

2) Redcloak went toe to toe with Miko, who defeated the Order of the Stick single handedly twice. He has gained xp since, and that fight might have been a show in its entiredy.

She did not defeat them single-handedly. At the first time, the rain prevented Haley and V from dealing any damage, Windstriker kept Belkar away, Durkon did not participate and the only person left with any hope of dealing damage was using a non-magical club. The second time Roy was still using the same powerless club and Durkon still didn't attack. All she got to do was to fight with Elan, Haley, Belkar and V, none of which heavy armor wearers. We clearly see later that given a strong weapon, Roy alone can defeat Miko (he heavily wounded her and stunned her). So this implies with Greenhilt family sword on his hand, Roy can defeat Redcloak alone. Also Belkar, being a Ranger/Barbarian at the same level with Roy has a pretty good chance of at least forcing Red to run. I must add that V, who has been mentioned as being the most powerful member of the group, also may put up a good fight against Red. So Redcloak is not an impossible target agains the Order of the Stick, with or without an army, since Haley can kill 21 enemies at once, she can keep the army distracted with pallies helping. But, then again, since the most powerful member of OotS is out of his/her power, the healer is nearly out of healing spells, the tactician is dead, second powerful melee fighter is forbidden to deal any damage at all, I say they better avoid Redcloak, who hasn't got "many" spells left :P

factotum

2007-08-07, 11:32 AM

We clearly see later that given a strong weapon, Roy alone can defeat Miko (he heavily wounded her and stunned her).

He can defeat Miko AFTER she's lost her Paladin abilities and become a fighter without bonus feats. I don't know how much effect her paladin abilities had in the earlier battles, but it's reasonable to assume it was more than zero (for example, she used Windstriker to grapple Belkar in the first fight, thus effectively removing him from the picture).

Greebo

2007-08-07, 11:42 AM

Also, in the first fight, Miko started at full strength.

When Roy stepped in and clobbered her, she'd been doing head to head with Hinjo for a while.

Chronos

2007-08-07, 01:55 PM

The loss of paladin abilities actually isn't too relevant for the Miko vs. Roy fight. He's not evil, so Smite is useless. He's a fighter, so the bonus to saves doesn't matter. Some of her spells might be useful, but we've seen that she doesn't use those much, anyway. And Lay on Hands might be useful, but Roy can deal enough damage quickly enough that that might not have mattered, either. About all that could have mattered would be Windstriker, and if she has a weapon which has special powers for a paladin (we don't know whether she has such).

And, of course, there are extenuating circumstances in any battle. Durkon didn't fight in either of the Miko vs. Stick battles, there was the storm in the first one, and Miko and Windstriker won surprise in the second one. And, of course, in the current battle, there's the strong extenuating circumstance that half the Order is missing, the primary spellcasters are low on spells (but we don't know exactly what they have left), and there's an army with Redcloak. Oh, and also the fact that either side can break off combat if needed (though Hinjo doesn't want to abandon friends, and Redcloak is now curious what's so valuable that they're defending).

Geilan

2007-08-07, 03:07 PM

:redcloak: This is MY city Mister Anderson Hinjo, MY CITY!

fractal

2007-08-07, 03:28 PM

The loss of paladin abilities actually isn't too relevant for the Miko vs. Roy fight. He's not evil, so Smite is useless. He's a fighter, so the bonus to saves doesn't matter. Some of her spells might be useful, but we've seen that she doesn't use those much, anyway. And Lay on Hands might be useful, but Roy can deal enough damage quickly enough that that might not have mattered, either. About all that could have mattered would be Windstriker, and if she has a weapon which has special powers for a paladin (we don't know whether she has such).
Two things. One, I'm not at all convinced that Miko was going to lose to Roy one-on-one; he was doing a bunch of damage to her, but then she stunned him. Just one or two successful stuns could be a decisive advantage in a melee fight; luckily for Roy, she didn't want to fight, she wanted to think.

Also, it was most definitely Miko's Paladin abilities that allowed her to stand up to Redcloak. Without Divine Grace, she'd have been a little pile of dust on the floor, just like the High Priest. None of the OotS have Fort saves anywhere near as good as hers. Redcloak would pulverise them one by one.

Additionally, the Order of the Stick has yet to actually all participate in the same battle (against an opponent of note). Therefore, there's also the ever-present question of "who's going to sit out this time?"

EvilJames

2007-08-07, 03:39 PM

Wow. That's the most damage I've ever seen on something in OoTS without X's for eyes. His feet and his cloak were shredded. That right there is a failed save, and he's going to need something big from Durkon.

Great speech by Redcloak, though. He's evil, but he's in the right when it comes to paladins.

Well no he's not, he may feel he's in the right but his self righteousness makes him no better than any paladin in the sapphire guard. And lets face it if his parents were killed as threats to the gate then they were likely doing something that was bad and brought the rightous fury of the Sapphire guard down upon themselves. Of course likely Redcloak doesn't know or care about this all he knows or cares about is the fact that humans killed his parents.

Acyberexile

2007-08-07, 04:05 PM

Two things. One, I'm not at all convinced that Miko was going to lose to Roy one-on-one; he was doing a bunch of damage to her, but then she stunned him. Just one or two successful stuns could be a decisive advantage in a melee fight; luckily for Roy, she didn't want to fight, she wanted to think.
True, but if they had pursued fighting, Roy clearly was going to win. She practically fled from the battle by stunning and running away.

Also, it was most definitely Miko's Paladin abilities that allowed her to stand up to Redcloak. Without Divine Grace, she'd have been a little pile of dust on the floor, just like the High Priest. None of the OotS have Fort saves anywhere near as good as hers. Redcloak would pulverise them one by one.
Again true, but I also would like to remind you that Redcloak does not have a great AC. It wouldn't be hard to lower his HP if Roy and Belkar manages to get close to him. To get close to him, they might use some of V's, Durkon's or Haley's abilities to distract him. I agree it would be a hard fight but it is not impossible.

Additionally, the Order of the Stick has yet to actually all participate in the same battle (against an opponent of note). Therefore, there's also the ever-present question of "who's going to sit out this time?"

dragon_masterd

2007-08-07, 05:12 PM

Hinjo was cool...

gamerboy6000

2007-08-07, 06:13 PM

Hinjo is probably still alive, if he wasn't dead before he hit the boat I don't think 1 or 2 hp of damage is going to do much worse.

Chronos

2007-08-07, 06:16 PM

And lets face it if his parents were killed as threats to the gate then they were likely doing something that was bad and brought the rightous fury of the Sapphire guard down upon themselves.Have you read Start of Darkness? Here's what happened in Redcloak's village:The previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle was, in fact, a legitimate threat to the Gates, and it was in pursuit of him that the Sapphire Guard went after Redcloak's village, more than a thousand miles from Azure City. When the Bearer saw that the paladins had come, he announced his presence to the Guard, and told them they had no interest in any of the other goblins present. They converged on him and killed him, of course, and then proceeded to kill all of the other goblins, including children and other noncombatants. Redcloak was already a cleric at this time, albeit a low-level one, and he didn't yet know anything about The Plan, so presumably neither did, say, his little sister. So most of the goblins the Guard killed couldn't possibly have been a threat to the Gates.In other words, yeah, it really does look like Redcloak has a legitimate grievance.

Shatteredtower

2007-08-07, 06:33 PM

paulg

2007-08-07, 06:54 PM

I know the joke got used a lot in the forum over the last few strips, but it was a premature use until this strip.

Don't expect Hinjo to be with us too much longer. See where he was when that spell hit him? Now look down. Yeah. I don't even have to say it, do I? :smallwink:

Okay, I looked down and saw that he landed on the boat. Then I looked up and saw that he landed at the feet of a high level cleric. I think Hinjo is going to be around for just a bit longer than you think he is.

Ithekro

2007-08-07, 06:58 PM

I think this is a "jump the snark" reference, as Hinjo is jumping over Lien's snark at the time he is zapped. :smallconfused:

malakim2099

2007-08-07, 08:20 PM

I think this is a "jump the snark" reference, as Hinjo is jumping over Lien's snark at the time he is zapped. :smallconfused:

Does that mean the shark was really a boojum? :smallconfused:

But actually, he didn't quite jump OVER the shark, as Redcloak blasted him backwards. That might be reading a bit too much into it.

foil_fedora

2007-08-07, 08:53 PM

Feels more and more like the ending of the Empire Strikes Back.

Rich, I love your work... but if this whole long tale ends up with Ewoks, I swear I will hunt you down!!!

:thog: Awww, fuzzy!!! Like big two-leg puppies!!! :thog:

Shatteredtower

2007-08-07, 09:52 PM

Okay, I looked down and saw that he landed on the boat. Then I looked up and saw that he landed at the feet of a high level cleric. I think Hinjo is going to be around for just a bit longer than you think he is.I wrote: "when that spell hit him," not, "after the spell hit him."

I was also writing in jest, in reference to an oft-repeated joke finally becoming valid. Ithekro gets it. Surely I'm not being too subtle?

Velazquez

2007-08-07, 10:25 PM

Lucky him,Durkhon is on ship.:wink:

malakim2099

2007-08-07, 11:34 PM

Rich, I love your work... but if this whole long tale ends up with Ewoks, I swear I will hunt you down!!!

:thog: Awww, fuzzy!!! Like big two-leg puppies!!! :thog:

Maybe they're just halflings with glandular conditions? :smallamused:

Ithekro

2007-08-07, 11:44 PM

Were-bear halflings is more likely. :smallbiggrin:

Bendal

2007-08-08, 08:52 AM

berrew

2007-08-08, 11:13 AM

Hmmm, Redcloak could have just as easily Disintegrated a big chunk of the boat rather than summoned a fiendish octopus to deal with it. It appears Xykon is starting to rub off on him; he's going for the more flashy spells (various Summons, Blade Barrier, etc) and saves the really destructive ones for his personal protection (Destruction, Disintegrate, etc).This has already been discussed several times here and in the
If Redcloak had Disintegrate ready... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52869) thread. See there for many valid reasons for his spell use.

daggerdragon

2007-08-08, 11:28 AM

Am I the only one who saw Beyonce's "Irreplaceable" in the first panel?

To the left
To the left
To the left...

Drizzt

2007-08-08, 11:45 AM

She had no time to react. Hinjo jumps over the ship's rail (which she didn't know he was going to do at that moment) and Redcloak hits him with the Disintegrate almost instantly (he only had time to travel a few feet). Also, if she DOES try to "avenge" her leader, then we can immediately put her in the Lawful Stupid alignment. Hinjo is higher level than she is, and Redcloak just took him out of the fight with a single spell--she'd have to be insane to get up on that dock and try to fight him, especially with dozens of hobgoblins around.

As David Argall said, their best chance now is to escape. There's no way Haley and Belkar can get through that crowd of hobgoblins to reach them. If they sail away they can at least try and arrange some sort of rendezvous tomorrow, when Durkon can prepare a Sending spell to talk to Haley.

Actually his back was turned while he was talking. She also wasn't all that far from him. Im sure she has some sort of range bonus or attack or somethin or other.

berrew

2007-08-08, 12:14 PM

Actually his back was turned while he was talking. She also wasn't all that far from him. Im sure she has some sort of range bonus or attack or somethin or other.Yeah! That's the ticket. Go, go 1d8+5 against an uninjured high-level caster. I think you need to look up the difference between vengeance and stupidity in the dictionary, you seem to have them confused... If you have any reasonable, constructive methods that Lien can revenge her leader rather than commit a form of seppuku, please mention them, because I can't come up with a one.

Drizzt

2007-08-08, 12:42 PM

komikaze!!!!!!!!

Drizzt

2007-08-08, 12:43 PM

Give me a break im just waiting for some one to die. My hopes sank when there were no X's in his eyes.

EvilJames

2007-08-11, 01:35 PM

Have you read Start of Darkness? Here's what happened in Redcloak's village:The previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle was, in fact, a legitimate threat to the Gates, and it was in pursuit of him that the Sapphire Guard went after Redcloak's village, more than a thousand miles from Azure City. When the Bearer saw that the paladins had come, he announced his presence to the Guard, and told them they had no interest in any of the other goblins present. They converged on him and killed him, of course, and then proceeded to kill all of the other goblins, including children and other noncombatants. Redcloak was already a cleric at this time, albeit a low-level one, and he didn't yet know anything about The Plan, so presumably neither did, say, his little sister. So most of the goblins the Guard killed couldn't possibly have been a threat to the Gates.In other words, yeah, it really does look like Redcloak has a legitimate grievance.

Well no not really. harboring a criminal is a crime, his people were harboring a threat to the existance to the world, and the paladins have know idea who is with the bearer and who is just the guy over there. As far as they know, that was the beare's village and full of goblins loyal to him. In truth his greivence is with the former bearer who brought the guard there. the rest is a tragic misunderstanding. (Unless they really did start offing kids palladins insta lose pally status for killing any humanoid children in my games at least unless there is a damn good reason)

Kish

2007-08-11, 03:30 PM

Well no not really. (Unless they really did start offing kids palladins insta lose pally status for killing any humanoid children in my games at least unless there is a damn good reason)
Unless? You must not have Start of Darkness.

Yes, they do kill all the goblins who don't run away fast enough, including small children. There is a picture of Redcloak's sister, who looks about five, with a sword sticking right through her midsection.

EvilJames

2007-08-11, 06:01 PM

I don't actually. That sort o thing is particularly un-paladin like and I'm more than a bit suprised that they didn't lose status for it. Regardless the majority of the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of Redcloak's predecessor.
Infact:
I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if redcloaks actions eventually lead to him causing the same miserey to his people at some future point