Fixing the Loremaster

[Theodoxus]

I was looking around to see if there was any honest discussion on fixing the Loremaster wizard subclass - and there's a couple older threads that meandered close, but not enough to risk theadimancy, so I figured I'd start one specifically for the task.

I ask the playgrounders help, because my DM is allowing our wizard (not me, btw) to use Loremaster. Now, I chimed in the discussion regarding the second level ability - because we'd just hit 2nd level. My modification was pretty simple:

"At 2nd level, you've mastered a signature energy type. Choose an energy type between Acid, Cold, Fire, Lighting or Thunder. You may change any spells energy type to your signature energy type when you cast the spell. At 6th, 10th and 14th levels, you can add another signature energy type to your repertoire."

This change was accepted - the wizard chose Cold. The question did come up if he changed Fire Bolt to Frost Bolt, would the rider also change - the DM was fine with that... so now he has a 120' d10 slowing attack... Probably not broken, but getting there. The 1d12 Frost Spray was pretty decent, though the 10' range pretty much negates that rider. (swapping the 2nd attack for slow... though it was useful against skeletons, who'd of been immune to the poison damage type.)

Anyway, I'd like opinions on the 6th level ability specifically. As it's the only other ability that the table agrees is over the top. The Loremaster in question isn't particularly savvy, shall we say - so we're not overly worried about him abusing the power of the LM - just, as most people have mentioned in other threads, nuking something from a mile away is broken... (Honestly, I don't think the player would even spend the extra slots to use the abilities provided, he's a bit miserly - but it'd be nice if there was something more Lore Like and less Meta Magic Like to chose from.)

So, thoughts?

[HidesHisEyes]

I'm not convinced changing 30 feet range to a mile range is broken, since most ranged spells specify that you have to be able to see the target. As far as I can tell, what this effectively means is that you're able to stand on top of a big hill and be able to target people down below as long as they're not blocked from view by buildings, walls, trees, etc. And you spend a second level spell slot to do it. How game-breaking is that, really?

Personally I think this subclass is pretty much fine as written, although I see your point about "lore" perhaps not being so well represented here except for that one expertise feature. How about casting Detect Magic and/or a similar spell as a special ability once per short rest?

[Naanomi]

I suspect a lot of lore wizard dips for dragon sorcerers with the 'across the board element switch'

[rbstr]

Given the usual constraints on requiring sight to hit things I don't think the range is that big of a deal. Sure, put him in a tower against the enemy army and he can be artillery. It's something that requires set up to use properly and is one of those things that shoudl be rewarded if they can put it to good use. Regular old adventuring should not be broken: You adventure on a featureless flat plane with perfect visibility?

What I don't get is giving firebolt a "different" rider for being cold damage. It can set stuff *not being worn* on fire, I wouldn't give it a slow for losing that.

[Elminster298]

What I don't get is giving firebolt a "different" rider for being cold damage. It can set stuff *not being worn* on fire, I wouldn't give it a slow for losing that.

I agree with your assessment. Any change of elemental property should not change any other effect of the spell. If a rider does not make sense(such as a cold spell igniting items) it simply doesn't happen.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I agree with your assessment. Any change of elemental property should not change any other effect of the spell. If a rider does not make sense(such as a cold spell igniting items) it simply doesn't happen.
Or better, keep it exactly as is. It's magic, after all. There's some wonderful weirdness at play with a spell that could freeze you to death also lighting things on fire, as physics start breaking apart under the strain of such confusing magic. Imagine chain lightning electrocuting you and moving to other targets like normal, except it's actually acid. There's no feasible way that could work, but it does, because magic isn't concerned with your material feasibility.

[JackPhoenix]

The elemental damage itself is a minor issue... the ability to choose the spell's saving throw is. Same with level 6 ability... 1 mile range isn't as problematic as increasing the save DC. Even at the cost of 3rd level spell slot, being able to choose the foe's weakest save AND get higher DC on top is seriously OP. And the ability to cast any (non-BA) spell from any class... yes, people will compare it to bard who can also choose spells from different classes' lists, but bard is stuck with what he learns, wizard is just fire and forget, even if once a day.

[Misterwhisper]

I was looking around to see if there was any honest discussion on fixing the Loremaster wizard subclass - and there's a couple older threads that meandered close, but not enough to risk theadimancy, so I figured I'd start one specifically for the task.

I ask the playgrounders help, because my DM is allowing our wizard (not me, btw) to use Loremaster. Now, I chimed in the discussion regarding the second level ability - because we'd just hit 2nd level. My modification was pretty simple:

"At 2nd level, you've mastered a signature energy type. Choose an energy type between Acid, Cold, Fire, Lighting or Thunder. You may change any spells energy type to your signature energy type when you cast the spell. At 6th, 10th and 14th levels, you can add another signature energy type to your repertoire."

This change was accepted - the wizard chose Cold. The question did come up if he changed Fire Bolt to Frost Bolt, would the rider also change - the DM was fine with that... so now he has a 120' d10 slowing attack... Probably not broken, but getting there. The 1d12 Frost Spray was pretty decent, though the 10' range pretty much negates that rider. (swapping the 2nd attack for slow... though it was useful against skeletons, who'd of been immune to the poison damage type.)

Anyway, I'd like opinions on the 6th level ability specifically. As it's the only other ability that the table agrees is over the top. The Loremaster in question isn't particularly savvy, shall we say - so we're not overly worried about him abusing the power of the LM - just, as most people have mentioned in other threads, nuking something from a mile away is broken... (Honestly, I don't think the player would even spend the extra slots to use the abilities provided, he's a bit miserly - but it'd be nice if there was something more Lore Like and less Meta Magic Like to chose from.)

So, thoughts?

Their elemental change did not work on cantrips, you are asking people to fix your homebrew, simple fix.. stop changing things.

[Naanomi]

Really the whole class is a mess; flavorwise nothing that shouldn't be just 'another type of wizard with the sage background'; and a whole host of abilities that are (with perhaps the single exception of 'expertise on some stuff') either mechanically overpowered, ill-fitting for the concept, or overshadowing other options at their own shtick. I don't think that, overall, it is salvageable in this form. If you want to homebrew your own 'scholarly wizard', go for it... but I wouldn't use this UA as the starting point

[Theodoxus]

Well, that's kinda not the point. The player already has permission from the DM to play it, with the limitations (and expansion) that I listed above. Saying "whelp, sorry, nothing to see here" is I guess expected, if annoyingly unhelpful.

Maybe look at it from where I'm coming from. If you're sitting with a party of new players and you're getting along fine, you fight off some critters, complete an escort quest, make a little gold to go on a shopping spree and at the end of the night, the DM says "congrats! you're level 2" and you end the session talking about what you're planning.

Then, later in the week, the wizard player writes a note on the website we communicate on that instead of the evoker he was planning on taking, he'd like to try the Loremaster, complete with link. You're like "well, it's a bit overtuned and needs a bit of help, here's what I think..." but receive no feedback, pro or con to your suggestion.

You get to the next game, and the player says "I went with Loremaster, because it fits my scholar emo human character to a T." And I'm thinking 'Well, I guess the DM allowed it...' And we get to playing and the wizard wants to know what casting a fire bolt as an acid spell would do, and then remembers "oh yeah, I chose Cold". So I think 'wow, they took my recommendation seriously.'

So, I have zero actual pull - but I'd like to at least influence the potential power that this subclass has. I was hoping for a thoughtful discussion on what options y'all would think up. Instead I'm told I'm a moron for offering a limitation and then witnessing the extrapolation of said suggestion in game. It's not my class, not my subclass, I'm not the DM nor in charge of making sure the words of the subclass are followed, rather than the presumption that cantrips are affected. Sure, I'll make sure to bring that up next game... But snark isn't helpful.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I agree that the 6th level ability is just plain doofy. Looking over the published 6th level features,

Abjuration improves your 2nd level feature
Conjuration gives you a thematic special ability
Divination improves your school of magic
Enchantment gives you a thematic special ability
Evocation improves your school of magic
Illusion improves your school of magic
Necromancy improves your school of magic
Transmutation gives you a thematic special ability

Since Loremaster doesn't really correspond to a school of magic, they should get some sort of know-it-all type special ability. How about...

Scholar's Insight: Your knowledge of the world and its dangers is near-comprehensive. As a bonus action, select a creature within sight and make make an Intelligence check, with a DC equal to that creature's CR+5. You have Advantage on this check if the creature is particularly common, and Disadvantage if it is particularly rare. On a success, you learn the creature's resistances, vulnerabilities, immunities, and any magical abilities or innate spellcasting it might possess. On a failure, you may not attempt the check against creatures of that type again until you have finished a long or short rest.

It's thematic, it's useful, and it's not too strong. I'd look for abilities more along those lines-- making Intelligence checks, being a know-it-all, and maybe doing some spellbook manipulation. I can see stealing the Bard's Magical Secrets, too. Maybe drop the combat part of Lore Master, replace Spell Secrets with Prodigious Memory, throw in my Scholar's Insight at 10th, and learn two spells off other class' lists at 6th and 14th. That would be a decent setup, methinks.

[tmjr6]

Scholar's Insight: Your knowledge of the world and its dangers is near-comprehensive. As a bonus action, select a creature within sight and make make an Intelligence check, with a DC equal to that creature's CR+5. You have Advantage on this check if the creature is particularly common, and Disadvantage if it is particularly rare. On a success, you learn the creature's resistances, vulnerabilities, immunities, and any magical abilities or innate spellcasting it might possess. On a failure, you may not attempt the check against creatures of that type again until you have finished a long or short rest.

It's thematic, it's useful, and it's not too strong. I'd look for abilities more along those lines-- making Intelligence checks, being a know-it-all, and maybe doing some spellbook manipulation. I can see stealing the Bard's Magical Secrets, too. Maybe drop the combat part of Lore Master, replace Spell Secrets with Prodigious Memory, throw in my Scholar's Insight at 10th, and learn two spells off other class' lists at 6th and 14th. That would be a decent setup, methinks.

Maybe a way to treat the abilities would be something like this:

2 - Lore Master: Keep as is.

2 - Spell Secrets: Remove necrotic, force, and radiant damage types from the list and remove the save changing ability.

6 - Your Scholar's Insight ability.

10 - Prodigious Memory

14 - Alchemical Casting where the 3rd level spell ability is changing the save?

I think this might be a good way to do it. A capstone similar to the Arcane Trickster's Spellthief ability could also work.