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Thrawn183
2007-08-05, 10:28 PM
My current DM's boyfriend is starting an Eberron campaign. This will be my first experience with the campaign setting and with him as a DM (though we get along well). My DM is going to be letting me read her copy of the Eberron Handbook, but is there anything you guys think I should know to make the transition as smooth as possible? There are already going to be a lot of things different than what I'm used to so I'd really like to "do my homework" and avoid conflicts/problems that really aren't a big deal with a little foresight.

Tellah
2007-08-05, 10:48 PM
"If it's in D&D 3.5, it's in Eberron."

You shouldn't have too many problems coming up with a character concept that'll work, but knowledge of Eberron's history will help you make a really compelling storyline. Some classes have new, fun routes to take with them. Rogues can become Inquisitives to play up the film noir feel of cities like Sharn, or they can go into the Extreme Explorer PrC to go for a real Indiana Jones explorer running through Xendrik. Find out where your DM wants to set it--Eberron's a huge setting--and that'll help you immensely.

tannish2
2007-08-05, 10:56 PM
ebberon is a cheesey setting(planes, trains, fast ships, skyscrapers ect.), but it can be fun, but remember dont get too caught up in the special modes of transport, because nothing beats a cleric with the spontaneous casting of the travel domain for getting places fast(or a wizard for that matter) sometimes the classics are just better, look at the items, there are some good ones, theres something similar to a boccobs blessed book in the ebberon campaign setting book but its cheaper per page if i remember right, and there are a few things like that, and artificers are good if you typically make magic items, and they can disarm/search for traps like a rog, so thats happy they also are good at things like use magic device, and they get free EXP to make items with, also ACTION POINTS, never forget them... ever, i didnt say not fun, i just said cheesy... and fun and if your DM runs you through the published adventures for it you will have absolutely no time to make items.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-05, 11:02 PM
Eberron is not cheesy!

:Ahem:
Build your character around the last war, it was a continent-spanning conflict that lasted hundreds of years and has been over for 2.

The key is making a character who will be flexible, as Eberron offers a lot of options and you'll want to be able to go to Xen'Drik if your DM makes the move.

Thrawn183
2007-08-05, 11:13 PM
Well, we'll be playing fairly high powered (as we are all at least decent optimizers). High stats. And levels 1-15. But this is the first time I'll have played in a group with less than 6 pc's so... things could get interesting. I'm currently looking at playing a Chameleon (I've wanted to for soooooo long.) And the DM is really supportive of it, so it looks like it could be a really fun campaign. I've been IM'ing him and kind of come up with an idea for a changeling Chameleon that's pretending to be a warforged. Its such a nice change to have a DM that can afford to spend the time to work with me on character creation!

Josh the Aspie
2007-08-05, 11:20 PM
The biggest thing I personally had to adjust to was the feel of the campaign. Most D&D campaigns are either high or low heroism. Eberron is built to be pulp. The biggest advice I can give you to get the feel' of the campaign ahead of time to avoid your head swimming with questions about why things make no sense when you really think about things, I reccomend you watch the movies "Hellboy" and "Sin City."

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-08-05, 11:23 PM
I've played in one Eberron campaign a few years ago. To be honest, I wasn't terribly impressed with the setting. Some of the ideas were pretty neat/good/cool etc. But as a whole, the setting just rubbed me the wrong way.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-05, 11:36 PM
Changeling pretending to be a Warforged...I'm not positive that works, but kudos on using your racial abilities to their limit.

Anyway, the best way to summarize Eberron's differences from a high fantasy like most other D&D settings is that it's closer to Indiana Jones than Lord of the Rings, although there's still elements of the latter. Think of pulp novels and film noir; the Dark Lord that the Chosen Heroes must overthrow is just as likely to be an ambitious businessman as a demonic ruler of a blasted wasteland, and the Chosen Heroes are just as likely to be a band of ex-soldiers or a team of private investigators.

RedScholarGypsy
2007-08-05, 11:39 PM
Eberron feels to me like fantasy steam punk, and if you like those, it's definitly for you.

If you can grab the player's hb for eberron, that'll prob be the biggest help. If not, I recommend looking in depth at the differences in the races from 'normal' d&d. That's one thing I found a few people overlooked, especially dino-rider halflings =P.

Josh the Aspie
2007-08-05, 11:58 PM
For examples of the range of odd characters one can come up with...

Dino-Riding 5th level Paladin halfling going beast-master next level, taking the feat that lets my animal companion and mount be the same, and then I'm going for halfling rider. I enjoy jousting, and am competent during 'crawls' where I don't have my glidewing. I'm considering buying a riding dog and putting him on the back of my mage-breed razorwing once I can have my special mount out 24/7.

I also play a psioniwho was possessed by a non Khalishtar spirit as a part of a cross-realities adventure from the Unearthed Arcana. She has entered the Ectopic Adept prestige class. My summoned iridescent serpents are generally more powerful than our other party members. Not apparently a noble by birth, we still have the actual nobles of the group assuming she is one... simply because she is well at home in high society. She has been given the title "Lady" Guinevere when being addressed by any of the male nobles. No, she's not "inspired."

I also play a Rouge Mastermaker who has made some of his new body out of the remnants of the livewood tree of our party Dryad. He's also been to the celestial plains, and his battlefist is dwarven masterwork, soulforged Starmetal. It has the holy enchantment on it as well. He was sent by the celestials to tell house D'Cannith to quit making war forged, he also had his hand then. He was kicked out 2 days before the big magical explosion, and fled back to the celestial plane. He now dresses in a huge fighter's cloak, and a 3 cornered hat. All you can see of him is his eyes. He also has a matching pair of magebreed warhorses pulling his magical crafting laboratory about. It's housed in the house-on wheels style of gypsy wagon.

Gralamin
2007-08-06, 12:22 AM
Well, we'll be playing fairly high powered (as we are all at least decent optimizers). High stats. And levels 1-15. But this is the first time I'll have played in a group with less than 6 pc's so... things could get interesting. I'm currently looking at playing a Chameleon (I've wanted to for soooooo long.) And the DM is really supportive of it, so it looks like it could be a really fun campaign. I've been IM'ing him and kind of come up with an idea for a changeling Chameleon that's pretending to be a warforged. Its such a nice change to have a DM that can afford to spend the time to work with me on character creation!

The Changeling works very will with the Chameleon (And the fact your part human and part doppelganger causes you to wave the special requirement, or so many DM's Decide)

You can look like a Warforged, but if anyone touches your skin, they won't feel metal/Wood. Thats an important feature.

Eberron is my favorite setting because I love Steampunk/Magepunk/Pulp.

Important facts:
The last war just happened. That should be an instrumental part of your character.
You should have a passing knowledge of the Dragonmarked Houses.
Elves habits change depending whrre you are. Valenar Elves tend to try and represent the spirit of an ancestral warrior, while Aerenal Elves revere the undying counsel.
Going to Xendrik is never good
Going to Khyber (read: Underdark) is never good
Going to Sarlona is worse
Going to Argonnessen is suicide
Going into the Mournland is Just stupid.
The Mournland was formed 4 years ago. No one knows what happened, but it once was known as Cyre. Most Cyrians have moved to Breland.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 12:43 AM
The Chamelon PRC is pretty interesting. Particularly in a Sharn or intrigue campaign.

Very Odd setting. Supposed to be low level type campaign. Qualifying to be a Changeling puts your PC into the lower A list hero list. There is only a single level 11 wizard in Sharn with 200,000 people but slightly better in Auandair.

Doesn't use standard cosmology. Starts a year after the last war.

Want to get rich leveling up. Go House Orien and become a DMH and start teleporting people around. Oh wait there is only a scarcity of House Orien Greater Dragon Marked heirs when the PCs need teleporting once they level up there is no more market for teleporters (lame).

Doesn't use standard demographics but has lots of high level magic despite that. Fifth level characters are rare (Most of the high level PCs 12+ were all killed off in the last war except for BBEGs (Lame) there but they have lots of PRCs that require being level 5 to enter just like standard worlds. Look at the Phantom Knight PRC read the text on it then look at the deomographics. Aundair can't support it as written.

They have wizard's guilds which have existed a 1,000 years but don't have all the standard level 1 - 4 spell in their reference libraries in Metropolis (Really Lame).

They have magical ships (elemental galleons 64,000 GP air ships 92,000 GP) and magical trains (Remain spotty on lightning rail costs per mile) which generally require a CL 15.

House Orien has expensive trains and other magical moving transporation types but doesn't have a Portal Network between the major Metropolis and Cities after a 1,000 years (75,000 GP market CL17 for a 2 way Portal which could easily be reduced by 30% by requiring a DMH to operate the Portal (Plus the Artificer should probably have Magical Artisan which reduces costs by another 25%). Gates which could easily be paid off within a year by the fees they charge for teleporting.

Magewrights (The arcane NPC adept) have Spellmastery feats instead of crafting feat and spellbooks with a limited spell list. That is really lame mechanically.

Cyre the Mournlands is pretty lame. Some of the houses knew the disaster was in the making and escaped others didn't. Now the Mournlands basically remains within the boundaries of the former country of Cyre. Supposedly Wizards will never reveal the exact reason for the cause. Probably some kind of artifact doomsday device or invention by House Cannaith.

Gralamin
2007-08-06, 12:57 AM
Very Odd setting.
I'll Fix your mistakes for you


Doesn't use standard cosmology. Starts a year after the last war.
2 Years, and most campaigns have their own cosmology.


Want to get rich leveling up. Go House Orien and become a DMH and start teleporting people around. Oh wait there is only a scarcity of House Orien Greater Dragon Marked heirs when the PCs need teleporting once they level up there is no more market for teleporters (lame).
Thats DM Fiat. Anyways, the PC is not supposed to become a business man, that is not what adventuring is about.


Doesn't use standard demographics but has lots of high level magic despite that. Fifth level characters are rare there but they have lots of PRCs that require being level 5 to enter just like standard worlds.
There is not that much high level magic, and the standard Demographics are stupid anyway. The highest none dragon spellcaster I can think of Jaella the Speaker of the Flame, while in Flamekeep.


They have magical ships (elemental galleons 64,000 GP air ships 92,000 GP) and magical trains (Remain spotty on lightning rail costs per mile) which generally require a CL 15.
They have those yes. It can be done at CL 13 by Artificers, or simply by enough work. The CL 15 is to balance out the PCs.


House Orien has expensive trains and other magical moving transporation types but doesn't have a Portal Network between the major Metropolis and Cities after a 1,000 years (75,000 GP market CL17 for a 2 way Portal which could easily be reduced by 30% by requiring a DMH to operate the Portal. Gates which could easily be paid off within a year by the fees they charge for teleporting.
There are no CL 17 Casters, or very few. People don't get to high levels very often.


Magewrights (The arcane NPC adept) have Spellmastery feats instead of crafting feat and spellbooks with a limited spell list. That is really lame mechanically.
An NPC is lame? This is a complaint how?


Cyre the Mournlands is pretty lame. Some of the houses knew the disaster was in the making and escaped others didn't. Now the Mournlands basically remains within the boundaries of the former country of Cyre. Supposedly Wizards will never reveal the exact reason for the cause. Probably some kind of artifact doomsday device or invention by House Cannaith.
Most Houses didn't know. Most houses had small influence in Cyre except Cannith.
Before the Day of Mourning, anyone with prophetic powers had their eyes burned out or their voice destroyed. There are four main possibilities that could of caused it:
1. Cannith screwed up
2. A Rakasha Rajah was imprisoned in Cyre that freed itself.
3. A Daelkyr's Expirements went Awry
4. Its the Quori's Fault.

Josh the Aspie
2007-08-06, 01:11 AM
Actually, in the campaign I'm currently playing in, there is another possibility that was brought up by my DM and my character's background. Celestials caused the day of mourning in order to attempt to avoid a danger that previously destroyed Xan'Drik and it's last civilization. This is speculation, but there is evidence.

The Celestials don't want more warforged being made. They don't say why. but they tell house Cannith not to make more. When Cannith throws out the messenger, only a few days later, boom. The country where Cannith had most of it's base is destroyed, along with much of it's leadership. The house is fragmented, the last war ends, and it is now illegal to make more warforged.

Xen'Drik is the source of the tech used to make warforged. Something very bad happened to them.

Even with interference, a huge coalition of warforged wanting to kill humans has formed under the lord of blades in the middle of the mournlands.

Now, the whole emissary thing is not wide spread. This means that it's a possible plot arc for just about any campaign out there.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 01:14 AM
I'll Fix your mistakes for you

***There are things I don't like about the setting that doesn't make them mistakes.

2 Years, and most campaigns have their own cosmology.

***The Last War ends 11 Aryth (November) 996 and in Jan 998 the campaign begins Less than 14 full months basically a year (Using standard rounding down for less than a half) although some will quibble it is really 3 years.

***DMG and Two planar source books for the standard cosmology.

Thats DM Fiat. Anyways, the PC is not supposed to become a business man, that is not what adventuring is about.

***I disagree. I'd suggest reading up on the Dragon Marked Houses. Big Business is how they operate in the game. The problem isn't the player who leveled up by the rules without min or maxing just taking a PRC in a Big Business House noting there was a definite shortage in supply for those Greater Dragon Mark abilities whenever the party wanted to utilize them.

There is not that much high level magic, and the standard Demographics are stupid anyway. The highest none dragon spellcaster I can think of Jaella the Speaker of the Flame, while in Flamekeep.

***Standard core rules you don't like are stupid in your own words. Rules and mechanics I have issues with you want to correct my mistakes.

***She is a cleric - 3 that gets special benefits inside the Cathedral where she is treated as a Cleric 18.

***Aundair uses better demographics for wizards. Wizard's came out with a demographics web article back when the setting began. I like how it doubles at every 2 levels below the highest level character.

They have those yes. It can be done at CL 13 by Artificers, or simply by enough work. The CL 15 is to balance out the PCs.


There are no CL 17 Casters, or very few. People don't get to high levels very often.

***So there haven't been any CL 15 Artificers in the last 1,000 years that is what is so lame because the fluff says there was. For Houses in the transportation business like Orien and Lyrandar Gates should be a no brainer especially with all the expensive high level magical ships and trains and other things they buy and invest in in recent decades.

An NPC is lame? This is a complaint how?

***Lets create an arcane adept to mimic the Adept. First we'll give it a limited spell list to make it weak mechanically. Then to make it even weaker we will not let it cast spells from that spell list using spell books like standard casters but not like like a sorcerer either. Instead we will give the class bonus Spell Mastery feats to learn spells when it advances to a new level of spellcasting and further limit spell selection. This is really Lame because NPCs do not even use 25 point generation normally unless taking PC classes. So mechanically we are talking Int 12 for most Magewrights and maybe 14 for a very few. Normally only mastering 1 spell with the feat every few levels like 1 and 4 until level 8 and 12 picking up 2 spells per feat due to pumping up Intelligence by 2 points with a bump again at level 16 and 20 to 3 spells.

Most Houses didn't know. Most houses had small influence in Cyre except Cannith.
Before the Day of Mourning, anyone with prophetic powers had their eyes burned out or their voice destroyed. There are four main possibilities that could of caused it:
1. Cannith screwed up
2. A Rakasha Rajah was imprisoned in Cyre that freed itself.
3. A Daelkyr's Expirements went Awry
4. Its the Quori's Fault.

That is incorrect maybe I have source books you do not. Plenty of houses were active in Cyre particulary Deneith, Lyrandar and Phiarlan.

We don't know despite numerous source books. However most of the members of House Phiarlan just happened to not be in the country of Cyre on the Day of Mourning. Very strange. That is a lot of people to keep the secret or their suspicions even for people in the secret business who sell those secrets. That information should be available for purchase from the house who knew to take the house out of country since that is what the house does provides information for a price. Lame.

Leon
2007-08-06, 02:08 AM
We don't know despite numerous source books. However most of the members of House Phiarlan just happened to not be in the country of Cyre on the Day of Mourning. Very strange. That is a lot of people to keep the secret or their suspicions even for people in the secret business. That information should be available for purchase from the house who knew to take the house out of country since that is what the house does provides information for a price. Lame.

Why should it be available even if they know. Not everything has a price - or at least on that a PC could afford


And as for the lack of "High Levels" the Players Guide of Ebberon says that its the dawn of a new age after a long and costly war where the PCs will have the chance to carve out a name for themselves

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 02:39 AM
Why should it be available even if they know. Not everything has a price - or at least on that a PC could afford


And as for the lack of "High Levels" the Players Guide of Ebberon says that its the dawn of a new age after a long and costly war where the PCs will have the chance to carve out a name for themselves


One of the Eberron source books I don't recall which one (Thought it was Sharn or the Five Nations if we are lucky someone will post the source book for the thread) cites suggested prices for purchasing information from House Phiarlan. Information is there business partiuclary valuable and obscure.

Lest everyone forget the house of Phiarlan was based in Cyre prior to the day of Mourning.

Most of the house of Phiarlan survived because they were not in the country on the day of Mourning.

That is a lot of people to get out of a country much less keep a secret going on several years now in game.

Even those Phiarlans not in the know know they were ordered out of Cyre and should have suspicions and inkllings.

The kingdom of Galifar existed for close to a thousand years. The houses of Orien (2,000 years) and Lyrandar (2,000 years) have both existed longer and they are the transporation houses. High level characters existed before the last war and during it.

Level 15 Artificers could have easily built gates or permanent teleportation circles particularly at the prices the house of Orien receives for teleporting people they could have been paid off in the first year they were built. Campaign fluff says they existed.

Building a dozen or so Gates and Portals to faciliate transport between the large cities and the various metropolis and using hubs (jumping a gate or two to arrive at destination) would normally cost 75,000 GP for a 2 way gate at market price. A DMG 30% reduction can be factored in by requiring a DMH to activate the gate drops the market price to 52,500 GP.

The Dawn of a New Age theme is lame because not all the high level characters should have gotten killed off in the last war there should have been some survivors on some sides. The higher artificer and wizard demographics for Aundair and Karrnath are due to their traditions and infrastructure.

According to Eberron campaign demographics there is only a single level 11 wizard in Sharn a Metropolis with 200,000 people. Wizard's has a web article regarding it.

Demographically there should only be a corresponding single level 11 artificer although there could be up to 3 level 11 artificers max in Sharn or other Metropolis. In Eberron Artificers and Wizards are 1D3 + 8 for a Metropolis to find the highest level with two exceptions in Aundair it is 1D6 +8 and in Karrnath it is 1D4 + 8.

Where are all these level 15 artificers churning out elemental vessels like air ships, elemental vessels and lightning rail locomotives?

That is what I find so lame about the campaign setting. Have low level ECS PRCs instead of standard PRCs.

Wizard's imposes mechanical limitations then ignores them.

CrazedGoblin
2007-08-06, 04:06 AM
Eberron looks fun :smallbiggrin:

Leon
2007-08-06, 04:09 AM
Wizard's imposes mechanical limitations then ignores them.

Yep, they do it all the time over a broad range of their products

lord_khaine
2007-08-06, 04:11 AM
thats, funny, for the part i find good about eberon is that it isnt overrun by epic npcs, unlike some other settings.

that it takes a lv 15 caster to make a train isnt lame, its a irellevant detail that prevents the pc from going making their own trains.

and as for those permanent gates, have you actualy seen the rules for crafting those, or are they just speculation?

Leon
2007-08-06, 04:14 AM
thats, funny, for the part i find good about eberon is that it isnt overrun by epic npcs, unlike some other settings.


Yeah, thats a good aspect of it - exactly why i hate FR

Stephen_E
2007-08-06, 10:32 AM
A couple of other points to remember.

Nationality generally trumps race.
Sure you may think Goblins are scum, but if you're both from Thrane, and a Zilargo citizen of the same race as you gets in a dispute with the goblin, all things even, you'll probably side with the goblin.

Alignment: -
LG Stupid Paladin Alignment morality carrys sod all truck in Ebberon.
By this I mean the tendancy to equate good kills evil approach doesn't cut it in Ebberon. (which the core alignment system has never really supported). In Ebberon they make it quite clear.
In the Church of the Silver Flame it's actually possible for a Paladin to be taking orders from an Evil church Official. Unless the order is clearly illegal they can just suck it up and take it.

General cultural feel for the World.
It's generally struck me as matching the period of history between 1600-1900 in RL terms. Industrially wise it's more like 1700-1800 but with the Victorian age geegaws.

Stephen

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 10:49 AM
thats, funny, for the part i find good about eberon is that it isnt overrun by epic npcs, unlike some other settings.

that it takes a lv 15 caster to make a train isnt lame, its a irellevant detail that prevents the pc from going making their own trains.

and as for those permanent gates, have you actualy seen the rules for crafting those, or are they just speculation?

What I consider lame is that those casters do not exist by Wizard's Eberron demographics but they are in game churning out elemental vessels to transport PCs around the world and then while they did exist in the last 1,000 years they did not do something common sense like make a dozen portals in the various metropolis and large cities that the Houses of Lyrandar and Orien could be charging for the convenience of using but spents millions making the lightning rail.

There is Teleportation Circle with Permanency in core which an artificer should be able to duplicate at level 15 in a single day instead of months for an elemental vessel.

Portals are considered Wonderous Items update in PGtF and no longer require a special feat.

FRCS did the best job detailing gates originally in FRCS chapter 2 at 100,000 GP for a One way gate and 150,000 GP for a 2 way gate along with rules for cheaper gates only operating 1/ride (10 days) at 1% of market cost and prorating other usages. Including rules for multi destination and keyed gates and portals. The FRCS market price was halved in a later source book. PGtF introuduced the Portal Master feat which reduces costs by half.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-06, 11:03 AM
In the Church of the Silver Flame it's actually possible for a Paladin to be taking orders from an Evil church Official.
Still evil is evil, he will not perform evil deeds on his command ... and if he ever pings him on his evil-dar he will seek to avoid him and bring him down if at all possible.

As for the OP.

The existence of deities is fundamentally unprovable in Eberron (and I content that Ockham's razor cuts them away since the alternative no matter how implausible still requires less leaps of the imagination than positing silent gods, although that argument doesn't cut it for Eberron's author ... I guess he is not an atheist IRL either). There are some near deity level powers but they don't grant spells.

Also everything to do with Dragons will require a bit of care when introduced in Eberron.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-06, 11:30 AM
What I consider lame is that those casters do not exist by Wizard's Eberron demographics but they are in game churning out elemental vessels to transport PCs around the world and then while they did exist in the last 1,000 years they did not do something common sense like make a dozen portals in the various metropolis and large cities that the Houses of Lyrandar and Orien could be charging for the convenience of using but spents millions making the lightning rail.

There is Teleportation Circle with Permanency in core which an artificer should be able to duplicate at level 15 in a single day instead of months for an elemental vessel.

Portals are considered Wonderous Items update in PGtF and no longer require a special feat.

FRCS did the best job detailing gates originally in FRCS chapter 2 at 100,000 GP for a One way gate and 150,000 GP for a 2 way gate along with rules for cheaper gates only operating 1/ride (10 days) at 1% of market cost and prorating other usages. Including rules for multi destination and keyed gates and portals. The FRCS market price was halved in a later source book. PGtF introuduced the Portal Master feat which reduces costs by half.
Well, Portals don't exist in Eberron because it's Eberron and not the Forgotten Realms. Or Planescape, for that matter. There's no reason to think things specifically designed for other settings exist in Eberron unless the DM says they do.

As for Permanent Teleportation Circles...you got me there. That's one of the first things I do when I design a highly-magical society. However, the thing with Elemental-bound vehicles like the lightning rail, airships, and elemental galleons is that it is implied that a large number of lower-level artificers working with expensive but basically permanent Eldritch Devices (I believe that's the general term) can build large-scale magic devices like this. The details aren't gone into much, because what player wants his character to be a worker on a magical assembly line? Thus, a couple dozen level 5 artificers/magewrights can build an Airship over the course of months. So can a single level 15 Artificer, but when those exist, they're likely to be adventurers (PCs), or very highly-paid "research" Artificers, rather than manufacturers.

As for Magewrights being badly-designed...they're an NPC class. Nobody cares if they're badly-designed.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-06, 11:38 AM
The author of Eberron has a habit of being either intentionally or unintentionally being oblivious of the rules (try to pin him down on the rules declaring alignment as absolute and detectable and what it means for his setting and watch him squirm while bringing up his own houserules he uses in his own campaigns). Eberron could have used some setting specific rules concerning portals and alignment.

It's never too late though, just saying "Permanent teleportation circles? No such thing." is very easy as a DM, although messing with alignment and it's detection is a bit more complex.

Morty
2007-08-06, 11:39 AM
As for Magewrights being badly-designed...they're an NPC class. Nobody cares if they're badly-designed.


Even if they're the core of one of the settings' core features, i.e magic being industry?

Leon
2007-08-06, 11:46 AM
There is Teleportation Circle with Permanency in core which an artificer should be able to duplicate at level 15 in a single day instead of months for an elemental vessel.


Its simply boring, "voomph, your at your location" no adventure on the high Skies, no chance for taking the long route

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 11:47 AM
A lot of the gaming groups I'm in right now are Eberron, just because that's what everyone likes to play. Some tips I can think of:

1. Look at the Dragonmarked Houses. They're basically the corporations of the Eberron world, but taking a Dragonmark as a feat almost automatically gives you importance and leverage within your house. (Note that most houses are race-specific, or at least their dragonmarks are.)

2. If you ever go to Sharn, which is a distinct possibility, make sure you always have at least one featherfall token on you at all times.

3. If you ever go to the Mournlands, good luck. Try to get back out as soon as possible. Among other monstrosities you'll find there are constructs and undead of all shapes and sizes and even living spells. If you see a pile of corpses, or a bunch of piles of corpses, don't go near them. Those are carcass crabs. If you see a giant walking city coming towards you, run if you want to live. And don't fly an airship through the Mournlands if you can help it. Both times I've seen an airship go through the Mournlands it was shot down by said walking city. Most importantly, magical healing is impossible in the Mournlands. Bring Goodberry Wine or some Rope Trick scrolls.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 11:50 AM
Well, Portals don't exist in Eberron because it's Eberron and not the Forgotten Realms. Or Planescape, for that matter. There's no reason to think things specifically designed for other settings exist in Eberron unless the DM says they do.

As for Permanent Teleportation Circles...you got me there. That's one of the first things I do when I design a highly-magical society. However, the thing with Elemental-bound vehicles like the lightning rail, airships, and elemental galleons is that it is implied that a large number of lower-level artificers working with expensive but basically permanent Eldritch Devices (I believe that's the general term) can build large-scale magic devices like this. The details aren't gone into much, because what player wants his character to be a worker on a magical assembly line? Thus, a couple dozen level 5 artificers/magewrights can build an Airship over the course of months. So can a single level 15 Artificer, but when those exist, they're likely to be adventurers (PCs), or very highly-paid "research" Artificers, rather than manufacturers.

As for Magewrights being badly-designed...they're an NPC class. Nobody cares if they're badly-designed.

Isn't the quote if it exists in D&D it exists in Eberron?

Portals are a Craft Wonderous Item.

If low level Artificers can make all these other high level items with eldritch devices then they should be able to do the same thing with making portals.

Like you posted that is one of the first things you address in your campaigns is permanent teleportation circles. It isn't addressed in Eberron which wastes vast amounts of resources on other magical items which is why I find it so lame in Eberron.

Particularly as Portals can be scaled down to prorate use and cost as cheaply as 1/ride for 1% of standard cost we are talking 750 GP market.

Posting it again if it exists in D&D it exists in Eberron isn't that one of the campaign mantras and premises? Well gates and portals exist on all other campaign worlds using core rules and feats.

If Wizard's doesn't want portals in Eberron then a simple sentence or two should address it in one of the source books.

Something simple like due to the unique planar cosmology of Eberron standard Gates and Portals do not exist in Eberron except as Artifacts. (DMs can insert as they like something PCs can not make and only acquire via the DM adventuring which also explains any encountered in campaign).

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 11:54 AM
Why would anyone build portals between cities in Eberron? It doesn't make sense economically as it detracts from the major two transportation houses, Orien and Lyrandar. Cannith might have the capabilities, but they have their own problems right now, and would probably sooner rebuild their warforged armies and conquer Khorvaire than they would provide easier transportation between cities.

Plus, nothing beats a session of a high-speed train robbery or an airship-to-airship battle.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-06, 11:58 AM
Portals exist on all other campaign worlds using core rules and feats.

No, they don't. They exist in specific campaign settings, Forgotten Realms being the only officially-Wizards-supported one.

So why should artificers be able to make Portals? They do not exist in the core assumptions of the Eberron setting. They are a Forgotten Realms/Planescape notion. The phrase "if it exists in D&D, it exists in Eberron" is a misnomer. The actual intent of that idea is that "if it exists in D&D, it's easy to find somewhere to put it in the setting," and even that is just flat-out untrue when it comes to setting-specific things like Portals, cosmologies, etc. The only things that Eberron was designed with in mind were the core rules and the Eberron Campaign Setting. Porting in an idea from an entirely different setting is of course going to cause some logical conflicts. It'd be like deciding that the Shadow Weave or Bane existed in Eberron: it just doesn't make any sense without a lot of alterations to the setting.

Okay, maybe the Shadow Weave is more plausible if you write a new history for it.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 12:04 PM
Why would anyone build portals between cities in Eberron? It doesn't make sense economically as it detracts from the major two transportation houses, Orien and Lyrandar. Cannith might have the capabilities, but they have their own problems right now, and would probably sooner rebuild their warforged armies and conquer Khorvaire than they would provide easier transportation between cities.

Plus, nothing beats a session of a high-speed train robbery or an airship-to-airship battle.

It makes plenty of sense if the houses charge for the service like they do for all the other services they provide.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 12:08 PM
No, they don't. They exist in specific campaign settings, Forgotten Realms being the only officially-Wizards-supported one.

So why should artificers be able to make Portals? They do not exist in the core assumptions of the Eberron setting. They are a Forgotten Realms/Planescape notion. The phrase "if it exists in D&D, it exists in Eberron" is a misnomer. The actual intent of that idea is that "if it exists in D&D, it's easy to find somewhere to put it in the setting," and even that is just flat-out untrue when it comes to setting-specific things like Portals, cosmologies, etc. The only things that Eberron was designed with in mind were the core rules and the Eberron Campaign Setting. Porting in an idea from an entirely different setting is of course going to cause some logical conflicts. It'd be like deciding that the Shadow Weave or Bane existed in Eberron: it just doesn't make any sense without a lot of alterations to the setting.

Okay, maybe the Shadow Weave is more plausible if you write a new history for it.

Go pick up your PHB. Read permancy and Teleportation Circle. Instant Portal. Only requires a level 15 artificer which have existed in game in the last 1,000 years.

Creating Gates and Portals is a Craft Wonderous Item feat. It makes sense that it works the same on all campaign worlds unless the rules specifically say otherwise.

You are talking apples and oranges bringing in Bane and the Shadow Weave from FRCS when I'm posting regarding portals and teleportation circles.

I am posting regarding core material from the PHB and DMG. Permanent teleportation cirlces and other gates and portals which would be a significant income generator for the transportation houses providing the service.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 12:11 PM
It makes plenty of sense if the houses charge for the service like they do for all the other services they provide.

It still detracts from somebody's business. If Orien tried building them, Lyrandar would send saboteurs to stop them from taking their business and vice-versa. They're already teetering on a balance between Orien controlling land travel and Lyrandar controlling air and sea travel. They'd go to war if it wasn't bad for business. They don't need to bring more reason for squabbling in.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-06, 12:11 PM
Castlemike: You are talking about two entirely different things.

Regarding permanent Teleportation Circles, I've already conceded the point. A network of those between at least the major cities would have been little if at all harder to set up than the Lightning Rail.

Portals, on the other hand, are magic items that only explicitly exist in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, and are specific to that setting's ideas about magic and cosmology. They are not part of the generic rules. This means that, even though you could declare them to be present in Eberron, the setting wasn't designed with them in mind, in the same way it wasn't designed with Elminster in mind.

Show me where to find portals outside of Forgotten Realms supplements, Third Party websites, and Second Edition material, and I'll drop the argument.

Also, I concur with DiscipleofBob's arguments, but I'll let him handle that set of ideas.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 12:15 PM
It still detracts from somebody's business. If Orien tried building them, Lyrandar would send saboteurs to stop them from taking their business and vice-versa. They're already teetering on a balance between Orien controlling land travel and Lyrandar controlling air and sea travel. They'd go to war if it wasn't bad for business. They don't need to bring more reason for squabbling in.

There is a lot of money to be made in this and that is one of the things the Dragon houses do make money.

While each house would no doubt like all of it to themselves they could be reasonable and share. After a 1,000 years they have had plenty of time to come to an accord with dual portal systems or territorial portal systems.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 12:19 PM
Castlemike: You are talking about two entirely different things.

Regarding permanent Teleportation Circles, I've already conceded the point. A network of those between at least the major cities would have been little if at all harder to set up than the Lightning Rail.

Portals, on the other hand, are magic items that only explicitly exist in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, and are specific to that setting's ideas about magic and cosmology. They are not part of the generic rules. This means that, even though you could declare them to be present in Eberron, the setting wasn't designed with them in mind, in the same way it wasn't designed with Elminster in mind.

Show me where to find portals outside of Forgotten Realms supplements, Third Party websites, and Second Edition material, and I'll drop the argument.

Also, I concur with DiscipleofBob's arguments, but I'll let him handle that set of ideas.

The Epic Handbook see the Gate Key on pages 145 - 146.

The Manual of Planes

The Planar Handbook.

DMG the Mirror of Mental Prowess is a Portal.

These are all non FRCS material published by Wizards.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 12:22 PM
There is a lot of money to be made in this and that is one of the things the Dragon houses do make money.

While each house would no doubt like all of it to themselves they could be reasonable and share. After a 1,000 years they have had plenty of time to come to an accord with dual portal systems or territorial portal systems.

Last War wasn't a thousand years ago, it was like, two. The Dragonmarked Houses aren't known for being reasonable and sharing. That's like saying Enron is known for its fair business practices. They're corporations, not friendly neighbors.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 12:24 PM
Last War wasn't a thousand years ago, it was like, two. The Dragonmarked Houses aren't known for being reasonable and sharing. That's like saying Enron is known for its fair business practices. They're corporations, not friendly neighbors.

Both Houses are 2,000 years old. If they are as unreasonable as you imply there should only be One transportation house or the Council of 12 should be running the Portals for the Dragon Houses.

Indon
2007-08-06, 12:26 PM
Go pick up your PHB. Read permancy and Teleportation Circle. Instant Portal. Only requires a level 15 artificer which have existed in game in the last 1,000 years.


From a martial or economic point of view, this seems to me a very bad idea.

Level 15 Artificer + sizable expenditure of XP < Level 1 spellcasting sabateur with a couple scrolls of Dispel Magic he picked up from his superiors.

It's better to establish a form of transportation that can't be disabled by a level 1 character in such a way that it requires a level 15 character to fix it, methinks.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-06, 12:26 PM
Castlemike: Phooey. Foiled again. I should point out that all three of those assume a Great Wheel setting, a la 2nd Edition Planescape, but...they do technically qualify as generic material, just like the PHB is generic material despite the fact that it references Greyhawk gods and the Great Wheel cosmology.

So, just to explain myself, I associated the Portals with being Greyhawk/Great Wheel specific, as apparently did Keith Baker...but you're right. It's not explicit that they don't exist in Eberron, and probably should have been made so.

DiscipleofBob's points still stand though. Lyrandar, Orien, and Cannith would literally go to war competing over a resource like that. Easier to just follow the implication that Portals don't work in the Eberron cosmology.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 12:32 PM
From a martial or economic point of view, this seems to me a very bad idea.

Level 15 Artificer + sizable expenditure of XP < Level 1 spellcasting sabateur with a couple scrolls of Dispel Magic he picked up from his superiors.

It's better to establish a form of transportation that can't be disabled by a level 1 character in such a way that it requires a level 15 character to fix it, methinks.

Get real.

I posted two examples of how to make instantaneous transportation devices.

Permanent Teleportation Circles are a quick down and dirty method. The Craft Wonderous Item feat doesn't allow this trick.

Maybe in your games a resource like this would be unguarded and the criminals (organizations and ring leaders who are basically commiting treason against the Dragon houses and governments would not suffer retribution) but not in most games.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 12:39 PM
How so?

Unfriendly kingdoms over a couple millenia will no doubt either come to an agreement or go to war, wiping either one or the other out.

Corporations know that war costs money among other things, and that an all-out war would be silly, as it would just cause a bunch of losses. Sure, the end result, if favorable might be that one House survives and eventually gets back on their feet with a brand new monopoly on the transportation market, but the cost for now would be too high. Whichever house that won the war might not financially recover, or worse, be taken over by one of the other houses who decides that maybe they'd like to add the lightning rail or skyships to their assets.

Look at Deneith. It was once one of the richest, most successful houses, but now it's falling into decay because of all the independent mercenaries.

Making a method of transportation that's faster and safer than trains, caravans, or ships might be good for the rest of the world, but the Houses don't care about the rest of the world, they care about their Kundarak bank accounts. Orien's Lightning Rail and Lyrandar's fleet of ships represent investments that would lose a lot of value if such a thing were invented.

Then there's the Draconic Prophecy. The Dragonmarked Houses are very, VERY careful not to upset the balance any more than it has been, as the Prophecy directly involves them, their entire families, and their entire assets. With the (assumed) downfall of the House of Vol and the defection of Thuranni, the higher-ups in the Houses are scared and rightfully so. Most of the houses are already preparing or are prepared to go to war. The whole setting is a powder keg waiting to go off.

I admit it would make a good story arc to have PCs working for either house trying to help build or sabotage the building of such portals, but I think it's for the best for Eberron as a campaign setting that they haven't been built yet. Lightning Rail cars and Airships are great places to have campaign sessions.

Indon
2007-08-06, 12:40 PM
Get real.

I posted two examples of how to make instantaneous transportation devices.


So they might need a scroll of Disjunction? Okay. If you have high-level casters making these things, then there're going to be high-level casters for the competition, which can be expected to play about as fair as the megacorps in Shadowrun.



Maybe in your games a resource like this would be unguarded and the criminals (organizations and ring leaders who are basically commiting treason against the Dragon houses and governments would not suffer retribution) but not in most games.

It's not that random loners would go off and do this.

It's that the house's competition would do that. It may be an independent working, but he's got backing...

And does it need to be unguarded? All you need to do is get into range and get six seconds of not being interrupted.

Gralamin
2007-08-06, 12:42 PM
Actually, in the campaign I'm currently playing in, there is another possibility that was brought up by my DM and my character's background. Celestials caused the day of mourning in order to attempt to avoid a danger that previously destroyed Xan'Drik and it's last civilization. This is speculation, but there is evidence.

The Celestials don't want more warforged being made. They don't say why. but they tell house Cannith not to make more. When Cannith throws out the messenger, only a few days later, boom. The country where Cannith had most of it's base is destroyed, along with much of it's leadership. The house is fragmented, the last war ends, and it is now illegal to make more warforged.

Xen'Drik is the source of the tech used to make warforged. Something very bad happened to them.

Even with interference, a huge coalition of warforged wanting to kill humans has formed under the lord of blades in the middle of the mournlands.

Now, the whole emissary thing is not wide spread. This means that it's a possible plot arc for just about any campaign out there.

The Giants become mad with power, and the Dragons moved in and shut them down.


That is incorrect maybe I have source books you do not. Plenty of houses were active in Cyre particulary Deneith, Lyrandar and Phiarlan.

We don't know despite numerous source books. However most of the members of House Phiarlan just happened to not be in the country of Cyre on the Day of Mourning. Very strange. That is a lot of people to keep the secret or their suspicions even for people in the secret business who sell those secrets. That information should be available for purchase from the house who knew to take the house out of country since that is what the house does provides information for a price. Lame.
Phiarlan may of been based there but Deneith is based in Karrnath, and Lyrandar is based in Aundair.
No one knows how Phiarlan managed to escape the event, Its part of the mystery. And most of them wouldn't know why they where told to leave. And they decided to put business practices aside, and make a run for it. The dragonmarked Houses value themselves over the others.


One of the Eberron source books I don't recall which one (Thought it was Sharn or the Five Nations if we are lucky someone will post the source book for the thread) cites suggested prices for purchasing information from House Phiarlan. Information is there business partiuclary valuable and obscure.
Yes so?


Lest everyone forget the house of Phiarlan was based in Cyre prior to the day of Mourning.
Running for your lives > Selling information. For all we know they might of heard that a huge army would be advancing there and indiscriminately killing everyone.


Most of the house of Phiarlan survived because they were not in the country on the day of Mourning.
addressed Already


That is a lot of people to get out of a country much less keep a secret going on several years now in game.
Why would any but the higher ups know? Telling someone to get out of Cyre or they will die will get them out. They don't need to know.


Even those Phiarlans not in the know know they were ordered out of Cyre and should have suspicions and inkllings.
And if their suspicions are wrong, their house may assassinate them.


The kingdom of Galifar existed for close to a thousand years. The houses of Orien (2,000 years) and Lyrandar (2,000 years) have both existed longer and they are the transporation houses. High level characters existed before the last war and during it.
High Level characters where few and far between even then. Look at the Lady of Plague and Tarkanan. Those two were very high levels, with powerful aberrant marks.


Level 15 Artificers could have easily built gates or permanent teleportation circles particularly at the prices the house of Orien receives for teleporting people they could have been paid off in the first year they were built. Campaign fluff says they existed.
Level 15 Artificers are too busy doing other things instead of building portals. Not everyone wishes for the transport system, and that is outside Cannith's reign (The houses each have their own territory. If Orien wanted teleportation circles, they would have to make Cannith create them.)
I have not seen the fluff you say, but if they did exist, I would say the giants made them, and they haven't been found on Xen'drik yet.


Building a dozen or so Gates and Portals to faciliate transport between the large cities and the various metropolis and using hubs (jumping a gate or two to arrive at destination) would normally cost 75,000 GP for a 2 way gate at market price. A DMG 30% reduction can be factored in by requiring a DMH to activate the gate drops the market price to 52,500 GP.
So what? Not everyone thinks of building a gate, and the houses run for business. And if these things had existed, Each country would of been using it in the Last War, and so the war never really would of happened. They shouldn't exist because it makes no sense to the campaign setting.


The Dawn of a New Age theme is lame because not all the high level characters should have gotten killed off in the last war there should have been some survivors on some sides. The higher artificer and wizard demographics for Aundair and Karrnath are due to their traditions and infrastructure.
Yes, but all high levels have better things to do.


According to Eberron campaign demographics there is only a single level 11 wizard in Sharn a Metropolis with 200,000 people. Wizard's has a web article regarding it.
I'll Believe you when I see this article.


Demographically there should only be a corresponding single level 11 artificer although there could be up to 3 level 11 artificers max in Sharn or other Metropolis. In Eberron Artificers and Wizards are 1D3 + 8 for a Metropolis to find the highest level with two exceptions in Aundair it is 1D6 +8 and in Karrnath it is 1D4 + 8.
Have yet to see where you got this from.


Where are all these level 15 artificers churning out elemental vessels like air ships, elemental vessels and lightning rail locomotives?
As has been said, an assembly line approach worked with these vessels. They wouldn't work with gates, as they require higher level magic, but with vessels? It works great.


That is what I find so lame about the campaign setting. Have low level ECS PRCs instead of standard PRCs.
I don't get what your trying to say. All PRCs from non setting specific material either then Eberron, are in Eberron. You can still be an Archmage.


Wizard's imposes mechanical limitations then ignores them.
Common in everything. Forgotten Realms you just don't notice, because their is so many epic level people running around.


Something simple like due to the unique planar cosmology of Eberron standard Gates and Portals do not exist in Eberron except as Artifacts. (DMs can insert as they like something PCs can not make and only acquire via the DM adventuring which also explains any encountered in campaign).
Why even bother? You want portals? They where created by the Giants, and artificers have not quite worked out how they worked.

(Yeah I'm caught up now)

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 12:44 PM
Maybe in your games a resource like this would be unguarded and the criminals (organizations and ring leaders who are basically commiting treason against the Dragon houses and governments would not suffer retribution) but not in most games.

My last session in Eberron involved breaking into the Cannith stronghold to sabotage the hidden creation forge. Granted, we were level 12, which is pretty high in Eberron, but it's not impossible to get past the guard. Yes, even the wards at Cannith, the artificer house. We weren't even working for any of the houses at the time (unless Tarkaanan counts).

Not sure if this is relevant, but most of the organized crime families, while led by low-level NPC's, have strong ties to the houses. Heck, the head of the Boromar clan, the most powerful crime family in Sharn, is married to an heir of House Jorasco.

bosssmiley
2007-08-06, 12:45 PM
Portals are considered Wonderous Items update in PGtF and no longer require a special feat.

PgtF? Isn't that the Player's Guide to Faerun? Faerun, not Eberron.


FRCS did the best job detailing gates originally in FRCS chapter 2 at 100,000 GP for a One way gate and 150,000 GP for a 2 way gate along with rules for cheaper gates only operating 1/ride (10 days) at 1% of market cost and prorating other usages. Including rules for multi destination and keyed gates and portals. The FRCS market price was halved in a later source book. PGtF introuduced the Portal Master feat which reduces costs by half.

Careful young Jedi. You run a grave risk of failing by appealing to FRCS-specific material in what is an Eberron discussion.

Simple answer to this question Castlemike: as Disciple of Bob and Leon already mentioned above (yes, the Hivemind has come for you :smallwink: ) a network of teleportation circles, gates and portals really do not fit the standard Eberron aesthetic.

There are several possible reasons for this:

High caster level requirements. The (few) high level casters in Eberron generally have better (more urgent, interesting, fun ordangerous) things to do than build infrastructure.
Tech limits.
The creation patterns (those ancient giant-built McGuffins that allow you to build magic items far beyond what your inherent power should allow) may not exist for such things as permagates. So the low level casters who *are* into teleport networks simply don't have the magical leverage to build them.
Security concerns.
Permanent mass-transit gates can be captured and used by your enemies (potentially awkward during a century long war...).
Cosmological/political reasons.
Excessive numbers of portals swiss-cheesing reality would weaken the bonds constraining the Daelkyr in Khyber, allow Xoriat to come back into alignment with Eberron, cause rains of fish, etc. so the Gatekeepers/the Chamber/whoever trash permanent portals regularly.
Hmmm, plot hook right there. :smallamused:
The Rule of Cool.
When it comes to tomb-raiding pulp adventure then the red line crossing the map beats the quick-and-dirty wipe dissolve. :smallwink:

All IMO of course. Your campaign may vary (but remember the Hivemind is out there. Watching. Waiting...)

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 12:52 PM
Phiarlan may of been based there but Deneith is based in Karrnath, and Lyrandar is based in Aundair.
No one knows how Phiarlan managed to escape the event, Its part of the mystery. And most of them wouldn't know why they where told to leave. And they decided to put business practices aside, and make a run for it. The dragonmarked Houses value themselves over the others.

Cannith was also primarily based there, and Deneith had some pretty strong holdings there too.


Yes so?


Running for your lives > Selling information. For all we know they might of heard that a huge army would be advancing there and indiscriminately killing everyone.


Why would any but the higher ups know? Telling someone to get out of Cyre or they will die will get them out. They don't need to know.

While it's not implicitly stated in any text that I've read, it's strongly suggested that the higher-ups of the Houses know what caused the Day of Mourning, particularly Cannith and Phiarlan. Cannith IMO probably caused it with one of their little experiments and Phiarlan probably just found out about it in time.

And if their suspicions are wrong, their house may assassinate them.

Nah, that's Thuranni's job. :smallbiggrin:

Indon
2007-08-06, 12:56 PM
You know, a party being hired by a house to destroy a revolutionary, experimental portal which will shortly be unveiled by a rival would make for an interesting session.

Gralamin
2007-08-06, 12:58 PM
Nah, that's Thuranni's job. :smallbiggrin:

I'm guessing the things you bolded are your corrections? Cause I never said that.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 12:58 PM
Castlemike: Phooey. Foiled again. I should point out that all three of those assume a Great Wheel setting, a la 2nd Edition Planescape, but...they do technically qualify as generic material, just like the PHB is generic material despite the fact that it references Greyhawk gods and the Great Wheel cosmology.

So, just to explain myself, I associated the Portals with being Greyhawk/Great Wheel specific, as apparently did Keith Baker...but you're right. It's not explicit that they don't exist in Eberron, and probably should have been made so.

DiscipleofBob's points still stand though. Lyrandar, Orien, and Cannith would literally go to war competing over a resource like that. Easier to just follow the implication that Portals don't work in the Eberron cosmology.

What you posted earlier was an open challenge for me to step up and cite some examples. I did.

The war thing is an assumption but in 2,000 years one house would have won out and earned the portfolio or it would eventually have been moderated out.

IMO since Orien and Lyrandar are the two transportation houses they would have shared or split the lucrative portal transportation system in some fashion since they have existed for 2,000 years and half a pie is a lot better than a small slice or no slice of pie.

So either a dual network system (For the Metropolis and Large Cities the major hubs) like modern airlines or territories like modern airlines again for the smaller hubs.

Personally I'm content with small cities and large cities having standard gates for the most part unless there is a special reason why a locale would have a standard gate. Smaller populaces like towns and the occassional village might warrant a prorated portal.

Failing control by Orien and or Lyrandar it would have fallen under the direction of the Council of 12 because it would have given them a very lucrative income source to fund their research and other projects.

I do not agree. ECS has a unique mostly closed off cosmology. It doesn't mean the great wheel or standard cosmology no longer exists. It just means it is harder to get to it. Most of D&D gets incorporated into the new editions in some form or another over the years.

I don't like the pick and choose arguements. I know that is in core but......

I am making a very reasonable premise based on the spells and feats that exist in core material along with other Wizard's third edition material which could have been easily addressed in one of the numerous source books with a single sentence.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 01:01 PM
I'm guessing the things you bolded are your corrections? Cause I never said that.

Those are my responses. The only reason the last part wasn't also bolded in your quote was because I needed some text in order to post. Sorry if there was any confusion.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-06, 01:05 PM
Castlemike: Sorry I wasn't clear. I was conceding the point, which is to say, that Portals do exist in a generalized sense, and therefore "should" be able to be fit into Eberron. The rest of my post was explaining why I (and apparently the setting designers) thought otherwise.

You win the "Portals explicitly don't exist in Eberron" argument. Sorry for dragging it out.

Now, my solution for why Portals aren't used in Eberron, rather than panning the setting as "lame", is assuming for myself that there's some reason they can't be used, whether economic or cosmological.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 01:11 PM
My main point is that portals in Eberron, specifically Khorvaire, do not really make sense due to the effect it would have on the houses.

Your argument that a portal system in Khorvaire is plausible given the resources of the houses does make sense. I would have to disagree that they would or will ever come to such an agreement regarding said portals. Capitalism does not always mean compromise or playing nice.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 01:12 PM
How so?

Making a method of transportation that's faster and safer than trains, caravans, or ships might be good for the rest of the world, but the Houses don't care about the rest of the world, they care about their Kundarak bank accounts. Orien's Lightning Rail and Lyrandar's fleet of ships represent investments that would lose a lot of value if such a thing were invented.

Then there's the Draconic Prophecy. The Dragonmarked Houses are very, VERY careful not to upset the balance any more than it has been, as the Prophecy directly involves them, their entire families, and their entire assets. With the (assumed) downfall of the House of Vol and the defection of Thuranni, the higher-ups in the Houses are scared and rightfully so. Most of the houses are already preparing or are prepared to go to war. The whole setting is a powder keg waiting to go off.




I didn't post it would be inexpensive to use the portals or that they would replace the lightning rail or the elemental vessels. It would be akin to using the Concorde. Paying a premium to get somewhere quickly. Something rich nobles or adventurers would be willing to pay for.

Just like airplanes have not replaced semis, trains and ships for the transportation of most goods although it is economically feasible to transport some items and some much needed critical items occassionally.

That may be how you interpret the Draconic Prophecy. Why don't you cite that part of the Draconic Prophecy where you interpret there is a prohibition against gates and portals because I missed that.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 01:18 PM
So they might need a scroll of Disjunction? Okay. If you have high-level casters making these things, then there're going to be high-level casters for the competition, which can be expected to play about as fair as the megacorps in Shadowrun.



It's not that random loners would go off and do this.

It's that the house's competition would do that. It may be an independent working, but he's got backing...

And does it need to be unguarded? All you need to do is get into range and get six seconds of not being interrupted.


I'm using the Wizard's ECS standard demographics. Single level 11 wizard in Sharn.

You need high level casters to make MDJ scrolls. Things like wizards level 17 or artificers level 15 which don't exist in any of the metropolis according to the Wizard's ECS demographics.

I'm not arguing that a single gate could not be taken out in game. My position is that it would be guarded better than the Lyrandar tower docking station in Sharn. There would be consequences for taking it out in most games which would not be limited to random loners. Organizations would be targeted in retribution.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 01:27 PM
I'll Believe you when I see this article.


Have yet to see where you got this from.



Wizard's Dragon Shard article by Keith on 7/14/04 ECS Deomgraphics.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 01:34 PM
There are several possible reasons for this:

High caster level requirements. The (few) high level casters in Eberron generally have better (more urgent, interesting, fun ordangerous) things to do than build infrastructure.
Tech limits.
The creation patterns (those ancient giant-built McGuffins that allow you to build magic items far beyond what your inherent power should allow) may not exist for such things as permagates. So the low level casters who *are* into teleport networks simply don't have the magical leverage to build them.
Security concerns.
Permanent mass-transit gates can be captured and used by your enemies (potentially awkward during a century long war...).
Cosmological/political reasons.
Excessive numbers of portals swiss-cheesing reality would weaken the bonds constraining the Daelkyr in Khyber, allow Xoriat to come back into alignment with Eberron, cause rains of fish, etc. so the Gatekeepers/the Chamber/whoever trash permanent portals regularly.
Hmmm, plot hook right there. :smallamused:
The Rule of Cool.
When it comes to tomb-raiding pulp adventure then the red line crossing the map beats the quick-and-dirty wipe dissolve. :smallwink:

All IMO of course. Your campaign may vary (but remember the Hivemind is out there. Watching. Waiting...)

Galifar had a 1,000 years to create a dozen or two dozen portals with high level arcanists capable of creating them for the primary hubs large cities and metropolis. Areas where most adventures do not take place unless they are urban campaigns. So the PCs still get to use other modes of transporation in game.

Portals can be keyed and would be at least 30% cheaper if keyed to respond only to a DMH. Possilby cheaper if utilizing a DMH ability to fuel operation.

Regarding Security concerns I see no reason why the local governments would and could not augment the portal security for that very reason with some of their own security forces along with House Denneith security forces. Why does everyone assume the portal could not be powered down by local reps during a security alert or other situation. There is always house Sivis to do sendings all clears.

Those same high level casters which now no longer exist demographically after the last war still have the time to be churning out elemental vessels is something I find very odd.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 01:35 PM
I didn't post it would be inexpensive to use the portals or that they would replace the lightning rail or the elemental vessels. It would be akin to using the Concorde. Paying a premium to get somewhere quickly. Something rich nobles or adventurers would be willing to pay for.

Just like airplanes have not replaced semis, trains and ships for the transportation of most goods although it is economically feasible to transport some items and some much needed critical items occassionally.

That may be how you interpret the Draconic Prophecy. Why don't you cite that part of the Draconic Prophecy where you interpret there is a prohibition against gates and portals because I missed that.

1) That's what would happen though, and that's what the Houses would see as the major threat. Just because they could still squeeze some use out of the lightning rail and skyships doesn't mean they wouldn't suffer a huge financial loss from the downsizing. And yes, trains and ships are virtually obsolete compared to their usage before the invention of other, more convenient modes of transportation.

2) Not the point I was making. The Draconic Prophecy is a scary, dangerous thing, one that could, if certain people aren't careful, could mean the downfall of one or more Dragonmarked Houses or even the world. You don't institute major economic change during a time when quite literally anything could trigger the apacolypse. The houses are going through enough trouble as it is without dealing with new ideas which sound good in theory but could have dire consequences.

Orien Guy 1: "Hey boss, I gots an idea!"

Orien Boss: "What is it?"

Orien Guy 1: "How'sabout we build a series of portals between major cities? It might cost us a lot now, but all we have to do is get some Cannith artificers on the job and spend a lot of money, but eventually we'll make a profit and make life more convenient for everyone!"

Orien Boss: "Uh... so you're saying we pretty much empty the treasury on Cannith, start building a system that would make our lightning rail pretty much obsolete, fire all those Dragonmarked Heirs we have guarding said lightning rail, and after a few years, IF we somehow survive our own financial downfall, we eventually start making a bit more money?"

Orien Guy 1: "Pretty much."

Orien Boss: "Where did you get this idea?"

Orien Guy 1: "Oh, my buddy down at Lyrandar had the same idea."

Orien Boss: "I see... Tell you what, you write down your name and your friend's name down on this piece of paper and give it to our usual assassin."

Orien Guy 1: "What for?"

Orien Boss: "So he can 'congratulate' you"

PS. Also, if you have a copy of the complete Draconic Prophecy, you might want to lend it to the Houses know so they can actually decide whether or not this portal idea of yours could potentially bring down the fall of mankind. That and the dragons of Seren who also seem to be searching for this information. :smallwink:

Telonius
2007-08-06, 01:46 PM
The thing is, the planar structure of Eberron is a little different from the rest of the D&D cosmos. Even if an artificer thought to do the calculations from the spells, they'd have to be recalibrated. There were rumors that somebody was about to try an experiment with it, but that was in Cyre... :smallbiggrin:

Pokemaster
2007-08-06, 01:50 PM
Pointless discussion on Eberron's modes of transportation aside...

The campaign will probably mostly depend on what your DM wants to do, but there's a couple of things that should hold across the board. First, you're probably going to have to work for/with something evil at some point, so I don't recommend playing an obsessively good character. Your party's boss is probably going to try and screw you in some way, but they probably have another job lined up for you, so unless they actually try to kill you, don't worry about it too much. If you're playing a Changeling, I suggest picking up the Changeling Rogue variant class. You lose trapfinding, but you get two extra skill points and a couple of other abilities, so you can probably split your skill points between Social and Stealth at first level, and then focus on whichever you feel is going to be most appropriate to your campaign and personal survival. Finally, your DM will probably drag you into the Mournlands at some point. Unless you somehow get knocked down to 1 hit point, the Mournlands are pretty much the only place where action points are necessary.

I think that's about it.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-06, 01:50 PM
My main point is that portals in Eberron, specifically Khorvaire, do not really make sense due to the effect it would have on the houses.
It doesn't work like that in the real world, it wouldn't work like that there. Market imperatives would force people to break rank.

Even supposing a global conspiracy which through terror and fear could keep entrepeneurs from using it, personally I'm not a big believer in millenia lasting conspiracies, the states would use it for troop movements.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 01:52 PM
1) That's what would happen though, and that's what the Houses would see as the major threat. Just because they could still squeeze some use out of the lightning rail and skyships doesn't mean they wouldn't suffer a huge financial loss from the downsizing. And yes, trains and ships are virtually obsolete compared to their usage before the invention of other, more convenient modes of transportation.
:


Okay Bob maybe I have been unclear in my posts. In the normal scheme of things House Orien and or House Lyrandar would operate between a dozen and two dozen portal for a substantial profit. Primarily for the wealthy and VIPs in game. An Aundair Noble who wants to go shopping in Sharn for the afternoon and enjoy a meal at Skyway or catch the Tarn gala or vacation for a few days. An adventurer in Sharn who Needs to be in Aundair immediately and is willing to pay the price. The PCs will still need to use elemental vessels and other transporation methods in game.

Primarily between the large cities and metropolis that dozen to two dozen portals are the sweet spot financially. Failing that they would be operated by the Council of 12. (It would keep portals as a resource under the thumb of the Dragon Marked Houses. As a reveune source for the Council of 12 less revenue would be required from the Dragon Marked Houses which could be utilized for other house projects and endeavors.)

Elemental vessels would still be used for shipping and transportation. The lightning rail would still be used to transport goods and people because it is econonically feasible and convenient for them to.

There are only a handful of Greater or Siberys marked heirs at best in a Metropolis based on the Sharn source book.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 01:54 PM
It doesn't work like that in the real world, it wouldn't work like that there. Market imperatives would force people to break rank.

Even supposing a global conspiracy which through terror and fear could keep entrepeneurs from using it, personally I'm not a big believer in millenia lasting conspiracies, the states would use it for troop movements.

Um.. I'm going to avoid the whole "real world not Eberron" comment, since I'm sure you're fairly aware of that point.

I will say that although the Draconic Prophecy might as well be a global conspiracy (one that really no one knows about), the problem with your second comment is that the state does not hold power over the houses. Moreso the other way around. If it weren't for the Treaty of Thronehold, several of the Houses would have already taken over a kingdom or two.

Ah, Eberron, so many theoretical plot hooks, so little time before I get bored with the setting.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 02:00 PM
Okay Bob maybe I have been unclear in my posts. In the normal scheme of things House Orien and or House Lyrandar would operate between a dozen and two dozen portal for a substantial profit. Primarily for the wealthy and VIPs in game. An Aundair Noble who wants to go shopping in Sharn for the afternoon and enjoy a meal at Skyway or catch the Tarn gala or vacation for a few days. An adventurer in Sharn who Needs to be in Aundair immediately and is willing to pay the price. The PCs will still need to use elemental vessels and other transporation methods in game.

Primarily between the large cities and metropolis that dozen to two dozen portals are the sweet spot financially. Failing that they would be operated by the Council of 12.

Elemental vessels would still be used for shipping and transportation. The lightning rail would still be used to transport goods and people because it is econonically feasible and convenient for them to.

There are only a handful of Greater or Siberys marked heirs at best in a Metropolis based on the Sharn source book.


Your layout, detail, and reasoning is impressive by all means and makes perfect sense.

I would continue debating that unfortunately the head of the houses lack your foresight on the manner, but I think I've made any point I was making pretty clear.

I love pointless debates. They're so fun. :smallbiggrin:

The only part of the above I would really disagree with is the part about the Council of 12 operating anything. They've always struck me as more of figureheads and politicians and best. I don't think they'd commandeer anything of the sort.

Thrawn183
2007-08-06, 02:07 PM
Ah schnap! Aparrently transportation in Eberron is something of a hot button issue. I also didn't expect 3 pages in less than 24 hours!

1) Hadn't realized that contact when pretending to be a warfoged could be a problem.

2) Why does it sound like there is only one continent I even want to consider being on?

3) I'll definitely be reading up on the houses. It sounds like they are the movers and shakers of the world, or at least the outdated but entrenched powers :smallwink: .

4) I like the sound of the rogue variant levels, but with 4 pc's, I'm not sure we'll have anybody else to cover the trapfinding area. Might be something I can figure out when I see the final party composition.

Thanks for the input, y'all.

Bryn
2007-08-06, 02:12 PM
The Eberron Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eberron) is a useful introduction to the setting. It doesn't match reading the books, of course, but it's a good overview of the important details. :smallwink:

Gralamin
2007-08-06, 02:15 PM
Ah schnap! Aparrently transportation in Eberron is something of a hot button issue. I also didn't expect 3 pages in less than 24 hours!

1) Hadn't realized that contact when pretending to be a warfoged could be a problem.
Disguise self is an amazing spell, and your ability is a stronger form of it, but from my reading, it couldn't duplicate the feel of warforged wood/metal. Ask your DM however.


2) Why does it sound like there is only one continent I even want to consider being on?
Because all the others are far worse off. Xen'drik is a jungle, and full of nasty bad for you things, Sarlona is in a perpetual shadow war, and Dragons don't like outsiders.


3) I'll definitely be reading up on the houses. It sounds like they are the movers and shakers of the world, or at least the outdated but entrenched powers :smallwink: .
More or less yes.


4) I like the sound of the rogue variant levels, but with 4 pc's, I'm not sure we'll have anybody else to cover the trapfinding area. Might be something I can figure out when I see the final party

Thanks for the input, y'all.
Good choice.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 02:17 PM
Ah schnap! Aparrently transportation in Eberron is something of a hot button issue. I also didn't expect 3 pages in less than 24 hours!

What can I say? I like pointless debates. Keeps me on my toes. :smallsmile:


1) Hadn't realized that contact when pretending to be a warfoged could be a problem.

I'm pretty sure you encounter similar problems when trying to impersonate Shifters or anything of a small size. Changelings are still very fun though.


2) Why does it sound like there is only one continent I even want to consider being on?

Well, Khorvaire is the main continent with all the fun stuff. Xen'drik is where you'll find drow, giants, and everything else that didn't fit on Khorvaire. Seren is fun. How can you not like a continent of dragons? I don't know what these other guys are talking about. (Then again, one of my Eberron characters is a barbarian/dragon shaman from Argonossen who worships the dragons in Seren.) :smalltongue: Sarlona: Never been there, but considering there are Quori that'll eat your dreams and how much I hate psionics, I don't plan to go if I don't have to.


3) I'll definitely be reading up on the houses. It sounds like they are the movers and shakers of the world, or at least the outdated but entrenched powers :smallwink: .

Definitely the movers and shakers. There are 12 main houses (13 if you count Tarkaanan/Vol, but if your character is part of that one, you'd best stay in hiding) which basically control every major industry in Khorvaire.


4) I like the sound of the rogue variant levels, but with 4 pc's, I'm not sure we'll have anybody else to cover the trapfinding area. Might be something I can figure out when I see the final party composition.

Well, the artificer gets Trapfinding, so it depends on who'll be the arcane caster really and whether they'll play an artificer.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 02:17 PM
Ah schnap! Aparrently transportation in Eberron is something of a hot button issue. I also didn't expect 3 pages in less than 24 hours!

1) Hadn't realized that contact when pretending to be a warfoged could be a problem.

2) Why does it sound like there is only one continent I even want to consider being on?

3) I'll definitely be reading up on the houses. It sounds like they are the movers and shakers of the world, or at least the outdated but entrenched powers :smallwink: .

4) I like the sound of the rogue variant levels, but with 4 pc's, I'm not sure we'll have anybody else to cover the trapfinding area. Might be something I can figure out when I see the final party composition.

Thanks for the input, y'all.

The main continent is where most things happen and has the most support although you can adventure in other locales like Xendrik or Sarlona or Argonnessen or Aerenal or or use the Frost Burn source book.

There are some nice Wizard's articles on the houses in the Eberron Archives mostly in 2004 and 2005 but lots of information.

Rumda
2007-08-06, 02:23 PM
even supposing that portals could be produced in enough numbers to provide an decent portal network between the major cities on Khorvaire, and the maintenance and administration becomes a non-issue.

In order for House Cannith, and they are the only group with the skills a resources to accomplish a take of this magnitude, to make a profit form making the gates would have to sell the gate at an inflated price to House Orien, who would have to charge a considrable amount per person, which would be much more than they charge for a use of the teleportation dragonmark power, which would place it in the price range of only the richest few, i.e. the national leader, the dragonmarked barons, and the lords of the aurum

Belteshazzar
2007-08-06, 02:45 PM
Attempting to make stable portals in a unstable and fluctuating cosmos like Eberron (those other planes just don't stay put like in the Great Wheel, well except for Dal Quor but no one wants them getting any nearer) could be akin to poking holes through a wall to see whats outside. Eventually the wall will fall, the flame will go out and the darkness will come in to play. No amount of magic missiles will stop your heart from becoming a tasty snack after that.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 02:52 PM
even supposing that portals could be produced in enough numbers to provide an decent portal network between the major cities on Khorvaire, and the maintenance and administration becomes a non-issue.

In order for House Cannith, and they are the only group with the skills a resources to accomplish a take of this magnitude, to make a profit form making the gates would have to sell the gate at an inflated price to House Orien, who would have to charge a considrable amount per person, which would be much more than they charge for a use of the teleportation dragonmark power, which would place it in the price range of only the richest few, i.e. the national leader, the dragonmarked barons, and the lords of the aurum

I believe you are mistaken.

Market price for a 2 way portal just keyed to be used by any Dragon Marked heir or a Dragon Marked House Arcane Signet Ring is 52,500 GP with the 30% discount for making a condition for use. Actual material cost is half that.

The artificers work for the houses so they would not necessarily pay full market price for house projects like this particularly with the favor standard in use in game. That a house arcanist would build it for cost for politics and some freebie usage by dragon marked house agents is certainly feasible and for House Orien and or Lyrandar to get a lock on this that would probably be a condition for the operating house or houses.

Many of the high level arcanists also work for the Council of 12 House Cannith does not have a lock on all the artificers in ECS.

Why would the House charge substantially less for this service than what they normally receive for a standard teleportation?

The affluent customer is going to another affluent locale for whatever reason business, dining, shopping, socializing or vacation without the attendant dangers, hazards and inconveniences of normal travelling.

Just basing it on teleportation at 450 GP for 3 people is 150 GP a person individually with a full load going up to 1,000 miles away one way.

Throwing in that standard 20% discount Dragon Mark house discount leaves the price at 120 GP a head each way.

After 4,375 (2,183 at half market price and standard crafting cost) customers have paid to use the portal building at full market costs have been paid off and you still have a permanent magical item.

Of course there will be some house and government favor travel without renumeration factored into doing business.

bingo_bob
2007-08-06, 02:53 PM
In contrast to other people, I'd say that Xen'Drik is THE most awesome continent. Maybe that's because you tend to get a very different style of campaign there, focused more on exploration, than on anything with a BBEG.

And I'd say that, with regards to portals, modern artificers probably have no idea on how to build them. Even if Galifar HAD built portals, chances are they were all destroyed in the Last War (So that you could seige enemy cities without their whole army appearing there. Same goes for any instructions on how to do it, or people capable of the task. And nobody is really willing to put the huge amount of time and work necessary into rediscovering the technology right now. And, as has been said, things like the Lightning Rail are a massive group effort over lots of time.

And as for the demographics problem: So? If I had to choose between making my major cities flavorful by changing the number of high level NPCs, and following some rather arbitrary numbers, I'd choose the former. That chart really breaks down at the top end, anyways. There isn't really ROOM on Khorvaire for another Sharn to be placed by a DM. Even if it's on another continent, Khorvaire tends to be the lowest leveled one anyways.

Rumda
2007-08-06, 02:55 PM
Although you could have portals that only function when the planes are in a certain alignment, or ones where you need to recalibrate them with the positions of the planes every time you use it, but with Kythri's position as unpredictable as it is, it would make setting up a network near impossible

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 03:02 PM
Although you could have portals that only function when the planes are in a certain alignment, or ones where you need to recalibrate them with the positions of the planes every time you use it, but with Kythri's position as unpredictable as it is, it would make setting up a network near impossible


Here's the thing I am making my premise based on core mechanics and the other high level magic "commonly" available for use in gameas as to why there should be a small portal network in game. Not maybe there is some planar interference or what not. A simple sentence in a source book to that effect would address the issue.

I like that ECS cites most commoners have taken a short ride on the lightning rail and seen elemental vessels. That doesn't mean they have travelled hundreds of miles in luxury at great expense which is comparable to what travelling via a portal would be.

IMO the FRCs does the best job of explaining the mechanics involved in making a portal and particularly a prorated portal which could be of great use to a Dragon Marked house in game going to one of their safe hide outs or drop points near a large populace.

I'm cool with portals being primarily limited to Dragon Marked House personnel and their agents and the Ir Wynarn Blooded Royal scions and their occassional personal guests and agents (Diplomats and Couriers (with Arcane Signets)) because it would be an AWESOME resource for Dragon Marked Houses over their various competition. House Ir Wynarn would probably be willing to enforce the fiat as long as they were allowed to partake of it under the rank has it's privileges premise this is something they would probably all be willing to enforce.

It is also a cool tool for a DM because then the Dragon and Royal Houses can also have a few "Secret" occassional use portal 1/10 days for slipping in the occassional operative or agents behind the lines that he controls personally.

Pretty cool gaming incentive to align your PC with one of the Dragon Marked Houses or Royal families in game as part of an adventure or paying off a favor with an adventure in game.

Getting picked up to start your arcane education at Arcanix or the Council of 12 on an arcane scholarship could be cool for character development coming in from another country.

Aquillion
2007-08-06, 03:12 PM
It doesn't work like that in the real world, it wouldn't work like that there. Market imperatives would force people to break rank.

Even supposing a global conspiracy which through terror and fear could keep entrepeneurs from using it, personally I'm not a big believer in millenia lasting conspiracies, the states would use it for troop movements.Not necessarily; you're taking a free market for granted, when Eberron is actually very far from that. Eberron is closer to a Dune-style aristocracy than a free-market economy... the big houses have an absolute, near-irrevocable monopoly on a key element of Eberron society, Dragonmarks, and have leveraged that into a near-monopoly on the use of the central element of Eberron industry, dragonshards. Without those two things on your side, your business ain't going anywhere in Eberron.

It's not a 'global conspiracy'; the houses have absolutely no need or reason to make a secret of how totally they will crush any upstart who tries to compete with their services. How are you going to raise money for your portal system when House Lyrandar and House Orien announce that anyone who works for you or lends you money will never be able to use their services again? (Your Portal system is not going to substitute for their rails, and certainly not if you can never get the idea off the ground. And they won't be interested in the portals themselves, since it would dilute the value of their dragonmarks.)

The Gilded Duke
2007-08-06, 03:34 PM
Permanant Portals are expensive. There is a limited market for their use. They are a huge security risk such that countries might not allow them. Teleporting through a portal is not any better then teleporting using a spell or spell like ability.

The dragon marked houses win out because of their spell like abilities. Spell like abilities do not require an experience cost, a material cost, or an experience cost. For the family of Orien that became house Orien teleporting people across the world requires no materials.

They can already meet the limited market demand without any real overhead. Why spend 50,000 on a gateway that only works between two locations when you can teleport for free with more flexibility already?

Orien's transportation abilities are incapable of moving large amounts of people. And so they have the lightning rail. Poor people do not need instantaneous teleportation. If it was available and cost more then the lightning rail, the masses would still take the lightning rail.

Also trains are by far awesomer then portals.

As far as house Lyrander, Airships are not there main business. The airship is a relativley new venture. They usually use their dragonmarks to pilot absolutley normal ships with greater speed. With their dragonmark (again free) they are able to gain wind even when it would otherwise be dead, and through this are able to outsail and outcompete other merchant shippers.

The other main business comes from producing rain. People with crops about to fail pay alot for rain, which for Lyrander comes at no cost.

You also mentioned that the council of twelve could do it. The council of twelve is not a benevolent or profit focused organization. They have input and are slightly controleld by all the dragonmarked houses. They do not work for the common man.

Also, I don't think it is written but I don't think many people would trust the twelve with large scale projects. The twelve used to be the thirteen. The Fleshweaver used delkyr magic in his expiriments and did many twisted and horrible things. He was kicked out yes, but the twelve never killed him for it. If it happened before, what is to prevent another wizard from going crazy like that?

Also would any country or dragonmarked house trust the 12 with control over a transportation network anyway? Most of the houses do not trust each other. Orlen and Lyrander would oppose it as it hurt their business. Cannith would probably be upset with the 12 making it. The Aurorum would also be opposed to a major dragonmark shakeup.

One of the major groups to stand in the way of a permanant transportation network though would be the Nation of Zilargo. Right now one of Zilargo's sources of wealth is their soul knowledge of elemental binding techniques. The Trust, Zilargo's secret police and assasin group already kills off anybody who learns Elemental Binding, they would probably try to kill to shut this sort of research down. Or at the very least sabotouge or discredit it. The most widley read respected and "impartial" newspaper is based out of Zilargo.

So to summerize:
Orlen can teleport people anyway for free.
Lyrander mainly does bulk and luxery cruises.
The Twelve aren't profit motivated, unified or trusted.
The Trust would kill anyone who tried.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-06, 04:16 PM
How are you going to raise money for your portal system when House Lyrandar and House Orien announce that anyone who works for you or lends you money will never be able to use their services again?
From the Boromar clan for instance. Roadside executions can't stop smuggling if the price is right, let alone some mellow form of excommunication.

The Gilded Duke
2007-08-06, 04:21 PM
From the Boromar clan for instance. Roadside executions can't stop smuggling if the price is right, let alone some mellow form of excommunication.

The Boramar are in with the dragon marked houses. Would have to go through one of the other gangs, and few of those are large enough to accomplish anything, without already having an agenda.

Just Alex
2007-08-06, 05:30 PM
Remember two things in character creation: Make either Sam Spade or Indiana Jones. The coolest adventures in Eberron center around settings that either character would slide right into.
Well, other characters of those genre's work, but they're the heroes.
I probably should have taken my own advice, but it's fun playing Short Round. I totally need to find my character a ball cap.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 05:34 PM
Permanant Portals are expensive. There is a limited market for their use. They are a huge security risk such that countries might not allow them. Teleporting through a portal is not any better then teleporting using a spell or spell like ability.

You also mentioned that the council of twelve could do it. The council of twelve is not a benevolent or profit focused organization. They have input and are slightly controleld by all the dragonmarked houses. They do not work for the common man.

Also would any country or dragonmarked house trust the 12 with control over a transportation network anyway? Most of the houses do not trust each other. Orlen and Lyrander would oppose it as it hurt their business. Cannith would probably be upset with the 12 making it. The Aurorum would also be opposed to a major dragonmark shakeup.

One of the major groups to stand in the way of a permanant transportation network though would be the Nation of Zilargo. Right now one of Zilargo's sources of wealth is their soul knowledge of elemental binding techniques. The Trust, Zilargo's secret police and assasin group already kills off anybody who learns Elemental Binding, they would probably try to kill to shut this sort of research down. Or at the very least sabotouge or discredit it. The most widley read respected and "impartial" newspaper is based out of Zilargo.

So to summerize:
Orlen can teleport people anyway for free.
Lyrander mainly does bulk and luxery cruises.
The Twelve aren't profit motivated, unified or trusted.
The Trust would kill anyone who tried.

Have you checked out the price of elemental ships lately in the source books?

Portals are cheap in comparison to what they can do and provide.

Using the Sharn source book there are a handful of Greater and Siberys marked heirs in a 200,000 metropolis. In some houses there are none. There isn't a ready supply of Dragon Marked Heirs until the PCs level and want to start profiting from their abilities.

Some countries now might not allow them or insist they be powered down. My point is they should have already been created before the last war when elemental ships were developed.

As a permanent magic item they are a great resource and investment for the house that controls them whether they charge for public use and profit from it or utilized them privately for their own house benefit. No where have I posted they would be doing this for the greater public good. They would be doing it either for profit locking down their control of the majority of magical transportation or self interest having their own private portal network.

I gave a few options. Orien and Lyrandar are the Transportation houses so I would expect them to control the primary portal network. If they could not come to an accord it would be in the best interest of the Dragon Marked houses to control the portal network and having it under the Council of 12 makes a lot of sense allowing access to all house members giving them a huge edge on their competition. Because all the Dragon marked houses get to give input to the Council of 12.

The security risk isn't as bad as everyone likes to portray it particularly with public portals which could be located right outside of town in security bunkers with security forces and shut down controls.

I disagree with The Trust the Dragon Marked houses have been around longer than Galifar they should exist in some form.

The same goes for your Zilgaro arguement. Elemental vessels are a recent development from the last war.

High level characters existed before the last war. The Dragon Marked houses have existed longer than Galifar which existed almost a 1,000 years. House Orien and Lyrandar have existed for 2,000 years.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-06, 05:35 PM
Remember two things in character creation: Make either Sam Spade or Indiana Jones. The coolest adventures in Eberron center around settings that either character would slide right into.
Well, other characters of those genre's work, but they're the heroes.
I probably should have taken my own advice, but it's fun playing Short Round. I totally need to find my character a ball cap.

And I shall call him....ILLINOIS BROWN.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-06, 05:58 PM
4) I like the sound of the rogue variant levels, but with 4 pc's, I'm not sure we'll have anybody else to cover the trapfinding area. Might be something I can figure out when I see the final party composition.
A couple of levels of Beguiler would give you back Trapfinding, plus some useful first level spells, although you'd drop down to 6 skill points/level. Still, for a Changeling Rogue, those social benefits can be awesome (take 10 on a bunch of checks, gather info in 1/6th the time, etc), so if you're looking to play a socially-focused character, it's probably worth taking the substitution level and being Rogue X/Beguiler 1 or 2.

edit: extra bonus! Actually being able to cast spells opens up a lot more disguise possibilities (note that Obscuring Mist and a few other Beguiler spells are on both Arcane and Divine spell lists). Plus, you can use Wands and Scrolls of higher level Beguiler spells without needing UMD, which can be very handy.

Beleriphon
2007-08-06, 06:24 PM
Isn't the quote if it exists in D&D it exists in Eberron?

No. The correct phrase is if its int he core rules you can fine a place for in Eberron. The idea is not based on the fact that all things D&D are in Eberron somewhere, but rather by the design intention of Eberron if you want to include something you can find a place without a whole heck of a lot of trouble.

As for portals. Simple. You can charge more a Dragonmarked House by use lightning rail, or flying ships. Keep in mind that that the flying ships a fairly new invention, and have been implied to be based on ancient giant magic.


I'll Believe you when I see this article.

Ask and ye shall receive. Dragonshard article about Eberron demographics by Keith Baker.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a

mostlyharmful
2007-08-06, 06:32 PM
As for portals. Simple. You can charge more a Dragonmarked House by use lightning rail, or flying ships. Keep in mind that that the flying ships a fairly new invention, and have been implied to be based on ancient giant magic.

That's not how competition works, or even how oligarchy works, the supplier can charge whatever they can get away with, what the market will bear and what won't get them pounded into horse pucky. If a merchantile conglomerate can undercut anouther making ungodly profits in the process they need a really strong reason not to

Citizen Joe
2007-08-06, 06:39 PM
Going with an Orien teleporter doesn't really buy you anything, since you need to be at least 9th level (2 skills at rank 12) to get the greater dragonmark of passage: teleport. Wizards (or clerics with travel domain) can do it better at the same level.

Beleriphon
2007-08-06, 06:49 PM
That's not how competition works, or even how oligarchy works, the supplier can charge whatever they can get away with, what the market will bear and what won't get them pounded into horse pucky. If a merchantile conglomerate can undercut anouther making ungodly profits in the process they need a really strong reason not to.

Like not getting yourself killed by the competition. Add to that the Dragonmarked Houses aren't the only power players in Eberron and you have a pretty good reason not to have a portal/teleportation circle network. At this point I don't think that King Kaius really wants a portal into his capital that happens to lead to Aundair, or worse Thrane. For all we know there was a teleportation circle network and all of the nations destroyed them when the civil war started. I can tell you right now that it would be my first move. I'd much rather not have the ease of teleportation than risk an attack by my enemies.

Additionally Eberron is specifically set up so that you end up with very few high level wizards, and those that do show up typically have better things to do than travel the country side creating permanent teleportation circles. Based on the article that I linked to Eberron is setup on the assumption that even in Audair, home of the Arcane Congress (read magical university for wizards) the highest level wizard you'll typically find is going to be 14th level. These are just the random guys as well, I suspect that the royal mage, who could very well be higher level before the war, would have better things to do that making teleportation circles.

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that the Dragonmarked Houses aren't exactly friend with each other. They'll work together, but only in so far as it will help them. So Lyrandar and Orien working together makes sense, but if one tried to undercut the other with Cannith then they would break their partnership, or try undercutting the Cannith alliance with Dennieth. Even if you don't presume this, Lyrandar and Orien are going to lobby local governments to not install a teleportation network because means that one is horning in on the other's business. Even if you presume that Lyrandar and Orien work together Cannith could try to stop them since building magical crap is their schtick. There are lots of perfectly reasonable explanations for not having a massive continent wide network of easy magical transportation.

My personal favourite is that the Mror holds helped to finance the lightning rail, and thus to make sure their investment makes money they only let ore shipments from their holdings be transported on the ground via the lightning rail. Right there is a solid, believable, economic reason for a powerful group to support one system over another possibly cheaper system.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 07:00 PM
Going with an Orien teleporter doesn't really buy you anything, since you need to be at least 9th level (2 skills at rank 12) to get the greater dragonmark of passage: teleport. Wizards (or clerics with travel domain) can do it better at the same level.


Incorrect you can do it by level 8 by taking 4 levels in the Dragonmark Heir PRC with a range of 1,400 miles (Self + 4 beings as CL14)or 2,800 miles if utilizing a House Orien Astral Beacon without using any other Dragon mark enhancing magic items. Although it would be a good idea to bump it up +1CL to increase CL to 15 and transport up to Five other beings.

PRC requirements are Favored in House, Least Dragon Mark and Two skills with 7 ranks.

Here's the thing to remember about wizards in ECS according to demographics at Wizards the Dragonshard article by Keith on 7/14/04 there is only a single level 11 wizard in Sharn 1D3 + 8 which makes 3 wizard capable of casting a level 5 teleport spell in a 200,000 person metropolis. None of them might even know the spell.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-06, 07:05 PM
for those focusssed on security, teleport circles don't require any material link to where they're going. only that the person crafting them has been there or whatever so a high level caster that has been to your fortress on a mission of peace sixty years ago can create a gateway into your key defenses right now which can shovel an army through in next to no time. You destroying your own teleport circles would do nouthing to an attacker with a basic knowledge of scrying

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-06, 07:06 PM
Incorrect you can do it by level 8 by taking 4 levels in the Dragonmark Heir PRC.

PRC requirements are Favored in House, Least Dragon Mark and Two skills with 7 ranks.
...How are you so familiar with this setting? You have a familiarity with the rules that makes it look like you play it regularly, yet you've thoroughly panned it as lame, odd, and inconsistent. Did you play it a lot and just get fed up with it, or did you go out and buy $200 worth of supplements just so you could argue about it on the internet?

Thrawn183
2007-08-06, 07:15 PM
Hoping that speaking is a free action in this case.

What is steampunk?
*draws tower shield*
*takes total defense*

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 07:18 PM
...How are you so familiar with this setting? You have a familiarity with the rules that makes it look like you play it regularly, yet you've thoroughly panned it as lame, odd, and inconsistent. Did you play it a lot and just get fed up with it, or did you go out and buy $200 worth of supplements just so you could argue about it on the internet?

The original poster wanted to know problems with the setting so she can transition for her group.

I find the setting interesting. She knew it was different from the other settings.

I have a half dozen books on the setting.

I never posted the entire setting was Lame just specific aspects which I believe contribute to possible problems in game particularly in a lengthy campaign.

I like playing humans normally. I don't care for the dinosaur riders but many people do.

I leveled up from level 1 in House Orien using 25 point buy and took the Dragon Marked Heir PRC at the first opportunity with the understanding there was a shortage of Greater and Siberys heirs in the campaign and there would always be a demand for the Greater and Siberys dragons marked heirs when I finally acquired the ability.

I didn't blind side the DM. The DM didn't consider the implications of what the abilities would have in game once you acquired them. Spend a few months of downtime in Sharn and nobody needs to be teleported anywhere is bogus and a PC only needs so many favors in the bank with other houses.

There was always a shortage of Greater and Siberys marked heirs leveling up (1 - 4 days waiting line to get the ability used for the party).

When I finally leveled up I never got to make any money teleporting people which is bogus if you are basing a campaign on ECS demographics and you level up your PC and the wizard and artificers get to craft magic items.

I would have played a wizard otherwise with bogus rules implementation like that or maybe a fighter type.

Most players get tired of spending lots of time traveling to different places. It just gets boring and sometimes you lose a PC to that monster encounter enroute let's stop the people hijacking or robbing the train.

There is a lot of potential with taking the Dragon Marked Heir PRC in a game but with the scarcity of high level NPCs and ECS demographics once you hit level 8 or 9 there is really no need to adventure except for the adrenaline rush. Your PC should quickly become wealthy just keeping a third of the standard house fees for their abilities along with collecting lots of favors enroute.

Stephen_E
2007-08-06, 07:20 PM
The security risk isn't as bad as everyone likes to portray it particularly with public portals which could be located right outside of town in security bunkers with security forces and shut down controls.



The Strategic risk is not only as bad as everyone likes to portray, it's worse.

You have to keep a small army at each portal in your territory, and don't tell me they'll be outside the city in security bunkers. If they are you've instantly made them uneconomical. Hell, the standing army makes them uneconomical. There's simply no way you're going to be able to charge enough to pay for all the security precautions to avoid making. -
"Sir the accountants report we made 10,000gp this week from portal traffic. We also spent 15,000gp on security forces"

Cities are build around transportation systems. If you build the portals outside the city, the cities will move to the portals.


As for the houses making these portals. The houses make the portals. These portals now operate without requiring an active House mage. Gee I wonder if the various Govts might just decide to take them over. After it's not like a Orien teleport mage who can refuse to work for you.

This is leaving aside the possibility that such standing portals would be a danger in a world that has had several extraplanar invasions.

You ask why the designer didn't specify why their was no portals. Gee...., I can't think why the designer didn't spend pages fitting in explanations about everything he didn't put in. And considering how much time it took us to come up with several good reasons against them, clearly he should've specified this, afterall he couldn't rely on us to think up reasons to not have them <sarcasm>.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2007-08-06, 07:28 PM
for those focusssed on security, teleport circles don't require any material link to where they're going. only that the person crafting them has been there or whatever so a high level caster that has been to your fortress on a mission of peace sixty years ago can create a gateway into your key defenses right now which can shovel an army through in next to no time. You destroying your own teleport circles would do nouthing to an attacker with a basic knowledge of scrying

Please describe accurately how a location you last saw 10 years ago looks now. Then tell me again how a mage can cast Teleport circle to a location he saw 60 years ago.

Having read teleportaion circle I'd also not it's a 5' dimameter. That cuts out bulk transport, and given the difficulties of keeping control of such a item, it really isn't worth it.

Stephen

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-06, 07:35 PM
Hoping that speaking is a free action in this case.

What is steampunk?
*draws tower shield*
*takes total defense*
Steam punk is the half-grungy, half-wondrous style based on a science-fiction interpretation of Nineteenth Century technology, during the latter Industrial Revolution. For a mediocre definition that I should edit, and a thorough list of examples that I won't mess with, see here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.SteamPunk).

Eberron, of course, is not steam punk in the literal sense, as there aren't any steam engines. However, since magic emulates many Industrial Revolution and Steampunk ideas in the setting, it's a close approximation perhaps better referred to as Magic Punk.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 07:52 PM
The Strategic risk is not only as bad as everyone likes to portray, it's worse.

You have to keep a small army at each portal in your territory, and don't tell me they'll be outside the city in security bunkers. If they are you've instantly made them uneconomical. Hell, the standing army makes them uneconomical. There's simply no way you're going to be able to charge enough to pay for all the security precautions to avoid making. -
"Sir the accountants report we made 10,000gp this week from portal traffic. We also spent 15,000gp on security forces"

Cities are build around transportation systems. If you build the portals outside the city, the cities will move to the portals.


As for the houses making these portals. The houses make the portals. These portals now operate without requiring an active House mage. Gee I wonder if the various Govts might just decide to take them over. After it's not like a Orien teleport mage who can refuse to work for you.

This is leaving aside the possibility that such standing portals would be a danger in a world that has had several extraplanar invasions.

You ask why the designer didn't specify why their was no portals. Gee...., I can't think why the designer didn't spend pages fitting in explanations about everything he didn't put in. And considering how much time it took us to come up with several good reasons against them, clearly he should've specified this, afterall he couldn't rely on us to think up reasons to not have them <sarcasm>.

Stephen


I disagree on so many points.

I don't understand why a portal outside the city walls suddenly makes it uneconomical. You are talking less than a mile. I was just magically transported hundreds or more miles saving myself days or weeks of travel. Now I can't take a carraige or walk into the city that premise makes no sense. If your PC can afford to use a portal they can generally afford to pay for a ride in a carraige or they can walk in using the transportation system.

Use a little common sense and treat it like an airport or a lightning rail station. No one has any problems with guerillas not blowing those up in game. I just flew into town. Hey where's the airplane to take me to my hotel. I forgot to bring my horse or car. Get real. Walk or take a cab you should be talking less than a mile.

Define small army.

I suggest rereading the DMG. Magic items can be built cheaper than normal (30%) by requiring things to activate them. In ECS Dragon Marks would be a nice touch. No Dragon Mark no working portal.

We have naturally occuring planar nexus in ECS and we have Prime to Prime gates via the Astral plane. Maybe in your game they will break into ECS via the portal but the logic behind that just doesn't track to me personally.

A single sentence would address this I don't need pages. Something simple planar cosmology or private house portal networks.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 08:07 PM
Please describe accurately how a location you last saw 10 years ago looks now. Then tell me again how a mage can cast Teleport circle to a location he saw 60 years ago.

Having read teleportaion circle I'd also not it's a 5' dimameter. That cuts out bulk transport, and given the difficulties of keeping control of such a item, it really isn't worth it.

Stephen

Steve I suggest you reread your PHB regarding Teleporation Circle and Greater Teleport.

Steve as I posted earlier in the thread. Portals are a Craft Wonderous Item feat magic item. The best rules regarding them are in FRCS which devotes a few pages to this. A standard portal can be made with a radius up to 15 feet. Larger can be made at a 100% cost increase per 300 SF. A medium creature can go through with up to 850# of gear.

The portals can be used for some trade but not all trade as many items are bulky. I am suggesting using the portals like the Concorde. People are paying a premium to arrive somewhere a little earlier. Not everyone can afford or is willing to pay what the service costs for the benefit it provides. In an Eberron campaign with Dragon Marked houses building and commissioning elemental vessels as viable economic purchases. Portals are very viable.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-06, 08:24 PM
Steam punk is the half-grungy, half-wondrous style based on a science-fiction interpretation of Nineteenth Century technology, during the latter Industrial Revolution. For a mediocre definition that I should edit, and a thorough list of examples that I won't mess with, see here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.SteamPunk).

Eberron, of course, is not steam punk in the literal sense, as there aren't any steam engines. However, since magic emulates many Industrial Revolution and Steampunk ideas in the setting, it's a close approximation perhaps better referred to as Magic Punk.
Heh, quoting myself here. Turns out the same wiki I cited also has an entry for "Dungeon Punk (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DungeonPunk)" that mentions Eberron explicitly. And has a better descriptive section.

Aquillion
2007-08-06, 08:29 PM
Teleportation Circle is a level 9 spell, so you'd have to be level 17. Do you realize how few level 17 characters there are in Eberron? The Lord of Blades, who is considered one of the most dangerous people in the world and widely feared for his abilities in personal combat, is level 12. According to the Epic Level guidelines for Eberron, (at least last time I checked) there are no epic-level characters anywhere in the setting, at all, and none exist in recorded history. Likewise, although low-level magic is common, the sourcebook explicetly notes that high-level magic is actually much, much more rare in Eberron than it is in most other D&D settings. To determine the number of permanent portals in Eberron, in other words, look at the number of permanent portals you get in, say, Forgotten Realms; since portals are high-level magic, Eberron is actually going to have much less than that. Wands of Magic Missile are cheap and everyone can carry them as sidearms, sure, but things like Teleportation Circle and Resurrection are virtually unheard of. (Resurrection is IIRC the spell that is specifically noted as being rare and hard to find someone capable of casting; but Teleportation Circle, which is even higher level, is just going to be worse.)

It's a very low-level setting; sure, a handful of level 17+ characters exist, but these are people like Vol and such, long-lived faction leaders with a specific agenda that generally does not involve playing transportation magnate. There are no "generic" high-level characters in Eberron the way you could find in D&D; you can't just walk into a major city and expect to be able to buy a level 9 spell. The idea is that the main heroes and villians are supposed to be superhuman, Holmes-and-Moriarty types, while everyone else is of much lower stature.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 08:39 PM
Teleportation Circle is a level 9 spell, so you'd have to be level 17. Do you realize how few level 17 characters there are in Eberron? The Lord of Blades, who is considered one of the most dangerous people in the world and widely feared for his abilities in personal combat, is level 12. According to the Epic Level guidelines for Eberron, (at least last time I checked) there are no epic-level characters anywhere in the setting, at all, and none exist in recorded history. Likewise, although low-level magic is common, the sourcebook explicetly notes that high-level magic is actually much, much more rare in Eberron than it is in most other D&D settings. To determine the number of permanent portals in Eberron, in other words, look at the number of permanent portals you get in, say, Forgotten Realms; since portals are high-level magic, Eberron is actually going to have much less than that. Wands of Magic Missile are cheap and everyone can carry them as sidearms, sure, but things like Teleportation Circle and Resurrection are virtually unheard of. (Resurrection is IIRC the spell that is specifically noted as being rare and hard to find someone capable of casting; but Teleportation Circle, which is even higher level, is just going to be worse.)

It's a very low-level setting; sure, a handful of level 17+ characters exist, but these are people like Vol and such, long-lived faction leaders with a specific agenda that generally does not involve playing transportation magnate. There are no "generic" high-level characters in Eberron the way you could find in D&D; you can't just walk into a major city and expect to be able to buy a level 9 spell. The idea is that the main heroes and villians are supposed to be superhuman, Holmes-and-Moriarty types, while everyone else is of much lower stature.

I agree 100% according to Keith's Dragonshard article at Wizard's on 7/14/04 regarding demographics but they existed in the past. ECS is clear on that.

The two transporation houses have existed 2,000 years. How come they don't have a dozen or two portals for the metropolis and large cities either to charge for the convenience of magical transportation or as private dragon house transportation networks? They are routinely funding elemental vessels some of which are more expensive than portals.

It takes a CL15 to make elemental vessels which are a recent development of the last war and no one has a problem with them being produced on a continual basis in the campaign.

Just Alex
2007-08-06, 08:49 PM
<snip>
It takes a CL15 to make elemental vessels which are a recent development of the last war and no one has a problem with them being produced on a continual basis in the campaign.

A combination of suspension of disbelief and knowledge of the assembly line. An army of level 1-3 artificer/magewrights can feasibly accomplish what one level 15 can do on his own. It might require more resources or something, but it's a lot more feasible to find a bunch of low level NPC's than the one level 15+ caster that's not pope or dragon.

Belteshazzar
2007-08-06, 09:41 PM
Hoping that speaking is a free action in this case.

What is steampunk?
*draws tower shield*
*takes total defense*

Steampunk is basically derived from cyberpunk. Cyberpunk is a phrase used to describe the grim and gritty yet highly technological world of tomorrow in which corperations pull the string and the street gang mutants will jack you up for your antigrav Nikes with their cybernetic implants.

Steampunk does the same but turns the clock back a few hundred years. Now you get jacked up by Frankenstein street gangs and if the setting has magic then they will be raging on magic dust and potions.

Steam and clockwork replace robotics and cybernetics so instead of cyberpimps armed with lazer miniguns you will be fighting a Warforged mob boss with a pinstripe suit, a repeating crossbow, and an Italian accent telling all the dirty coppers they will never catch him alive.

Thrawn183
2007-08-06, 10:13 PM
Wow, that explanation of steampunk was actually pretty informative. Thanks.

I now have rolls for my stats and have an idea what the rest of the party composition will be, so I can start getting to the nitty gritty of character creation.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-06, 10:27 PM
The two transporation houses have existed 2,000 years. How come they don't have a dozen or two portals for the metropolis and large cities either to charge for the convenience of magical transportation or as private dragon house transportation networks? They are routinely funding elemental vessels some of which are more expensive than portals.
Mike, the only answer you're really going to get to this is "because they don't." For whatever reason, and I think several very plausible ones have been presented here, the setting was designed without Portals; therefore, there aren't any unless the DM puts them in and adjusts the nature of the setting accordingly, even if it's just "Portals on Eberron are rare, created with technologies lost in the destruction of House Cannith's headquarters on the Day of Mourning. A handful exist, but as they all connect major cities, the majority have been under constant military guard and closed to all but the best-connected civilians since the start of the Last War," which largely writes them out of current economics, etc.

Alternatively, what I'm going to say in my games is "Portals don't work on Eberron. The cosmology spins around too much."

Really, it's down to you to justify how to put non-Core, non-Eberron material into the setting, or not.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-06, 10:56 PM
A combination of suspension of disbelief and knowledge of the assembly line. An army of level 1-3 artificer/magewrights can feasibly accomplish what one level 15 can do on his own. It might require more resources or something, but it's a lot more feasible to find a bunch of low level NPC's than the one level 15+ caster that's not pope or dragon.


So then they can make portals.

I'm going to take a break from the thread now.

Leon
2007-08-06, 11:46 PM
Wow, that explanation of steampunk was actually pretty informative. Thanks.


Iron Kingdoms (http://www.privateerpress.com/ironkingdoms/default.php?x=about/) is a good look at the type of thing that steampunk is

illathid
2007-08-07, 12:42 AM
Mike, the only answer you're really going to get to this is "because they don't." For whatever reason, and I think several very plausible ones have been presented here, the setting was designed without Portals; therefore, there aren't any unless the DM puts them in and adjusts the nature of the setting accordingly, even if it's just "Portals on Eberron are rare, created with technologies lost in the destruction of House Cannith's headquarters on the Day of Mourning. A handful exist, but as they all connect major cities, the majority have been under constant military guard and closed to all but the best-connected civilians since the start of the Last War," which largely writes them out of current economics, etc.

Alternatively, what I'm going to say in my games is "Portals don't work on Eberron. The cosmology spins around too much."

Really, it's down to you to justify how to put non-Core, non-Eberron material into the setting, or not.

The inconsistency CASTLEMIKE claims to be a problem in Eberron, only is a problem if you assume that the game world is static and without growth.

Keith Baker, creator of the setting, has commented on similar problems on the Eberron boards at the WotC website. Basically what he said was the spells that exist in the PHB are those that are commonly available at the start of the campaign (i.e. 998 YK). However, that does not mean that all of the those spells have existed throughout Eberron's history. In fact, according to Mr. Baker something like half of the PHB spells were developed in the past 100 years.

Therefore the reason there isn't a network of permanent teleportation circles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) is because the spell most likely hasn't existed for more than 10-20 years.

Maybe there is a heir of Orien working right now to convince his house, the other dragonmarked houses, as well as the leaders of the Khorvaire, to adopt such a portal network, but he has not yet succeeded. Resourceful DM's could even use that as a plot for their own campaigns.

Beleriphon
2007-08-07, 07:38 AM
The two transporation houses have existed 2,000 years. How come they don't have a dozen or two portals for the metropolis and large cities either to charge for the convenience of magical transportation or as private dragon house transportation networks? They are routinely funding elemental vessels some of which are more expensive than portals.

Because there are 10 other houses that have a vested interest in not doing so, a 2000 year old empire that had a vested interest in not doing so, and the fact that apparently nobody thought to do so.


It takes a CL15 to make elemental vessels which are a recent development of the last war and no one has a problem with them being produced on a continual basis in the campaign.

It takes a single CL15 caster to make an elemental vessel, or a bunch of lower level guys with a magical Xen'drik MacGuffin to do the same drudge work. As it stands Eberron is setup so that anybody that can pull of a CL15 effect has better things to do than build flying boats. They're doing things like scheming to overthrow Aundair, kill King Kaius, beat back invasions of Quori, or find a way to corrupt the Speaker of the Flame.

Add to that Keith Baker's further suggestion that the PHB spells are those that are commonly available, and likely the majority of them developed for use in the Last War and you have a reason nobody has giant teleportation/portal networks. Given that the vast majority of the spell in the PHB are for blowing some other guy up its not really and unreasonable assumption either.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-07, 08:01 AM
I think it amounts to whether or not the DM wants it. If he doesn't he could have a living teleport spell which is the result of a failed attempt at a teleport network combined with the shifting planes. Nasty bugger looks like a tornado that blows through causing people to vanish and appear hundreds of miles away.

There's also some general issues with teleport that make a permanent location a bad idea. Primarily, it draws Astral beings (Githyanki) to the locations who could then hijack the traveller/cargo. Normally teleport opens a 'portal' at two points and draws you through the astral plane connecting them. This isn't a problem because it exists for an instant and the locations are random so you can't ambush reliably. However, if you keep using the same location over and over again, astral pirates can set up an ambush and hijack you.

ALOR
2007-08-07, 08:26 AM
I think it amounts to whether or not the DM wants it. If he doesn't he could have a living teleport spell which is the result of a failed attempt at a teleport network combined with the shifting planes. Nasty bugger looks like a tornado that blows through causing people to vanish and appear hundreds of miles away.


sweet idea, consider this stolen :smallbiggrin:

Citizen Joe
2007-08-07, 08:51 AM
sweet idea, consider this stolen :smallbiggrin:

It is best used when a PC mentions "Why aren't there any teleportation portals?"

*ominous shaking*
*whirling mass appears out of nowhere*
*mini tornado envelops questioning character*
*mini tornado vanishes with a pop, character is nowhere to be seen*
*meanwhile, somewhere over a lake hundreds of miles away, offending character appears*
*SPLASH!*

Awakened carp: At least you didn't ask why there weren't any permanent shapechanging abililities.

Thrawn183
2007-08-07, 10:10 AM
HEY!
Since when did the OP become a she?

(My current DM is a she, not me)

Aquillion
2007-08-07, 01:53 PM
So then they can make portals.Not really. A ship involves a number of small pieces, most of which aren't very high level (and the game even provides an explaination for how some of those pieces can be provided without a high-level caster, through things like dragonmarks, dragonshards, and bound elementals.)

A portal, though, is one big piece. Either you can cast Teleportation Circle, or you can't... no lower-level abilities are going to suffice for that, and there's no dragonmark that would take its place.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-07, 02:06 PM
Not really. A ship involves a number of small pieces, most of which aren't very high level (and the game even provides an explaination for how some of those pieces can be provided without a high-level caster, through things like dragonmarks, dragonshards, and bound elementals.)

A portal, though, is one big piece. Either you can cast Teleportation Circle, or you can't... no lower-level abilities are going to suffice for that, and there's no dragonmark that would take its place.

ECS Elemental Vessels CL 15 Bind Elemental and Greater Planar Binding a level 8 spell.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-07, 02:08 PM
Double Post

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-07, 02:27 PM
The inconsistency CASTLEMIKE claims to be a problem in Eberron, only is a problem if you assume that the game world is static and without growth.

Keith Baker, creator of the setting, has commented on similar problems on the Eberron boards at the WotC website. Basically what he said was the spells that exist in the PHB are those that are commonly available at the start of the campaign (i.e. 998 YK). However, that does not mean that all of the those spells have existed throughout Eberron's history. In fact, according to Mr. Baker something like half of the PHB spells were developed in the past 100 years.

Therefore the reason there isn't a network of permanent teleportation circles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) is because the spell most likely hasn't existed for more than 10-20 years.

Maybe there is a heir of Orien working right now to convince his house, the other dragonmarked houses, as well as the leaders of the Khorvaire, to adopt such a portal network, but he has not yet succeeded. Resourceful DM's could even use that as a plot for their own campaigns.

That is what I mean by Lame aspects in the setting.

Now half the PHB spells particularly the high level ones were created in the last century. None of those those inventors exist according to Wizard's and Keith with his 7/14/04 dragon shard demographics article.

It takes a CL 15 to make elemental vessels which require a level 8 spell but demographically none of these NPCs exist in game. Elemental vessels are being built continually.

No one seems to have a problem with those nonexisting NPCs churning out elemental vessels for Lyrandar heirs to operate. In fact people make excuses for how they can do that and then more excuses on why that same process can not be used to make permanent gates with the craft wonderous item feat.

My point is that the same people producing elemental vessels can use the same methods to gates whether or not you incorporate into your game.

CockroachTeaParty
2007-08-07, 02:27 PM
The changeling rogue's loss of trapfinding may seem like a problem... until you realize that the rogue class is inferior to THE BEGUILER!! Here's what you do:

Level 1: changeling rogue substitution class
Level 2: take beguiler. You get trapfinding and spellcasting that makes you even more sneak-tastic.
Level 3-5ish: keep taking beguiler
Level 5ish+: become a recaster, or chameleon, or cabinet trickster or something.
Rest of you levels: ...
Level 20: profit.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-07, 02:40 PM
Please describe accurately how a location you last saw 10 years ago looks now. Then tell me again how a mage can cast Teleport circle to a location he saw 60 years ago.

Having read teleportaion circle I'd also not it's a 5' dimameter. That cuts out bulk transport, and given the difficulties of keeping control of such a item, it really isn't worth it.

Stephen

I can recall plenty of places with resonable accuracy from 10+ years ago as i have a visually based memory system (go single useful facet of dyslexia) and how much has buckingham palace changed in the last few decades? The example is of a low level wizard on a diplomatic mission for a few months not someone who just wandered past, add in that you can use refreshers like pictures and hypnosis to recreate the mental image (how many pictures of the fabulous gardens of palace X can you find?). Then add in wizardly Int scores and mind magic......

As to 5' diameter, you don't need to move an army, just a high level strike force to open the gates ala the trojan horse

illathid
2007-08-07, 02:45 PM
That is what I mean by Lame aspects in the setting.

Now half the PHB spells particularly the high level ones were created in the last century. None of those those inventors exist according to Wizard's and Keith with his 7/14/04 dragon shard demographics article.


That is assumption you're making about the inventors. If you look at this dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050725a), you can see that there are places such spells could come from.

I'm sure Mordain the flesh weaver would take issue with your claim that he doesn't exist. :smallwink:

PinkysBrain
2007-08-07, 03:00 PM
Greyhawk based fluff about the invention of PHB spells isn't relevant to other settings, Mordenkainen hasn't existed in Eberron not in the last century and not in any century (not in modern Forgotten Realms either BTW).

Stephen_E
2007-08-07, 08:01 PM
ECS Elemental Vessels CL 15 Bind Elemental and Greater Planar Binding a level 8 spell.

Technically a 13th lev Artificer can do this.
With a bunch of Magewrights you can probably maintain a reasonable construction rate with the Artificer binding the elemental and the magewrights making the rest of the ship.

As for such an Artificer also making portals using PHB (FR is setting specific. Eberron allows the DM to use it, but Baker doesn't have to explain it) while the DM can choose to create a secret network, I think there has been ample reasons given why such a network isn't openly operating.

As the ECS and Explorers Hbk point out, the big advantage of Airships is that they can go anywhere. Each portal goes to ONE place, with a 5' radius circle (no FR mods apply in standard setting) and requires an even higher level Artificer or Wizard to make.

Stephen

PS. You realise it's possible that the Mournlands may've been created by an attempt to make a portal, which turned out to cause some sort of interdiemensional rip as we've already speculated. :smallwink:

PPS. Regarding the house that up and moved out just before the mournlands were created. Just because they moved is no firm indication that they know what caused them. "Sir, several of our best Diviners in Cyre have suddenly ceased to be able to see any future. We've crosschecked and none of our people can see anything involving Cyre". Head of house - "Crap, get everyone out but a few observors. I don't know what's happening but I'm not risking losing most of the house".

Stephen

Belteshazzar
2007-08-07, 08:17 PM
PPS. Regarding the house that up and moved out just before the mournlands were created. Just because they moved is no firm indication that they know what caused them. "Sir, several of our best Diviners in Cyre have suddenly ceased to be able to see any future. We've crosschecked and none of our people can see anything involving Cyre". Head of house - "Crap, get everyone out but a few observors. I don't know what's happening but I'm not risking losing most of the house".

Stephen

Sounds like what I would do under such circumstances. In fact if this was the case why were there not more (minor diviners perhaps) who could feel the bad mojo coming. I know if I was a diviner and suddenly stopped being able to see the future I would pack up, start running, and not stop till I heard the boom.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-07, 08:23 PM
That is what I mean by Lame aspects in the setting.

Now half the PHB spells particularly the high level ones were created in the last century. None of those those inventors exist according to Wizard's and Keith with his 7/14/04 dragon shard demographics article.

It takes a CL 15 to make elemental vessels which require a level 8 spell but demographically none of these NPCs exist in game. Elemental vessels are being built continually.

No one seems to have a problem with those nonexisting NPCs churning out elemental vessels for Lyrandar heirs to operate. In fact people make excuses for how they can do that and then more excuses on why that same process can not be used to make permanent gates with the craft wonderous item feat.

My point is that the same people producing elemental vessels can use the same methods to gates whether or not you incorporate into your game.
Oddly enough, the setting seems to value flavor more than metagame questions of "how can this be created if there aren't x wizards of y level."

ALOR
2007-08-07, 09:55 PM
PPS. Regarding the house that up and moved out just before the mournlands were created. Just because they moved is no firm indication that they know what caused them. "Sir, several of our best Diviners in Cyre have suddenly ceased to be able to see any future. We've crosschecked and none of our people can see anything involving Cyre". Head of house - "Crap, get everyone out but a few observors. I don't know what's happening but I'm not risking losing most of the house".

Stephen

i don't have my campaign setting with me but i believe what was said was that only the "important" figures of that house escaped

PaladinBoy
2007-08-07, 11:16 PM
I apologize if I'm repeating points; I didn't have time to read every post before this.


There is a lot of potential with taking the Dragon Marked Heir PRC in a game but with the scarcity of high level NPCs and ECS demographics once you hit level 8 or 9 there is really no need to adventure except for the adrenaline rush. Your PC should quickly become wealthy just keeping a third of the standard house fees for their abilities along with collecting lots of favors enroute.

Lord Auran d'Lyrandar has cooler things to do with his time than sit in a palace all day casting control weather on command. He would much rather do things like blow holes in the King's Citadel in Wroat, defend the Swiftwind airship construction facility from a Tharashk army, or fight the Brelish Redcloaks in Sharn harbor from the deck of a wind galleon.

He is also eagerly awaiting level 5 of the windwright captain PrC, so he can do his fighting from the deck of an airship, in a hurricane that he summoned. Maybe explore Argonnessen (fighting dragons all the way)? Whatever's fun. The point is, the whole reason he's an adventurer in the first place is a love of excitement. He's not interested in being a businessman.

And your reasoning does have a flaw. In order to consistently make large amounts of money from your dragonmark abilities, you're going to have to make it a business. Sure, you might make some money off of a single use of an Orien teleport. If there's a customer with enough money currently available, If you and said customer cross paths, etc. And that's only one time. Turning into a consistent source of money means putting work into marketing, guild approval, and building a client base. Eventually, you'd have to decide "Do I go adventuring, or humor the guild representatives that wanted the meeting today?" If you choose the former, then your guild isn't happy with you and stands in the way of your guild stamp, which harms the money you make. If you choose the latter, then you're not much of an adventurer anymore.


That is what I mean by Lame aspects in the setting.

Now half the PHB spells particularly the high level ones were created in the last century. None of those those inventors exist according to Wizard's and Keith with his 7/14/04 dragon shard demographics article.

It takes a CL 15 to make elemental vessels which require a level 8 spell but demographically none of these NPCs exist in game. Elemental vessels are being built continually.

No one seems to have a problem with those nonexisting NPCs churning out elemental vessels for Lyrandar heirs to operate. In fact people make excuses for how they can do that and then more excuses on why that same process can not be used to make permanent gates with the craft wonderous item feat.

My point is that the same people producing elemental vessels can use the same methods to gates whether or not you incorporate into your game.

I admit, my DM did have a problem with that when our party had to protect the Swiftwind airship construction facility from attack. Most of the wizards there turned out to be research types, with little combat ability. Oh well.

As for the gate problem, I don't agree. A wizard or artificer focusing on elemental binding probably isn't interested in gate magic, except as a vehicle to deliver elementals. He just wants to use his Elemental Binding feat. He might not even have Craft Wondrous Item. This goes double for the wizards and artificers that make a career out of building elemental vessels. They're interested in building more airships so they can get paid now, not working on a portal network that might or might not yield them money. Sure, an inventive type might think to try it, but that can be explained away by saying that the Edison or Einstein for that idea hasn't arrived yet.

For that matter, elemental binding is useful for a wide variety of applications and items. Portalmaking is good for exactly one thing.

On top of that, it seems to me that a lot of Eberron's really useful magic is based around one of two things:

1) Dragonshards. And you can bet that the lanterns that light Eberron's cities did not just pop out of nowhere. Someone had to do the R&D. How much more difficult do you think that R&D will be with a 9th level spell?

2) Ancient magic. Even elemental binding is something Sivis stole from the drow. And the drow learned it from....... what was left of their former masters, the giants. Who learned their magic from...... the dragons. The origins of this magic go back hundreds of thousands of years. The people of the Five Nations did not develop ancient magic. They didn't have the skill to develop elemental binding themselves. Where does that leave them with portalmaking?

Stephen_E
2007-08-07, 11:17 PM
i don't have my campaign setting with me but i believe what was said was that only the "important" figures of that house escaped

Thanks, I just checked and you're right (that's what comes from just taking what posters asy as correct).

That's still simpler. The best Diviners started having problems scying in Cyre, as if a wall in the future existed. The Head of the house arranged for the leading members (who it would really hurt to lose) were out of the country until thye worked out what was happening. The minor people were left, afterall pulling everyone out on a nebulous threat would cause immense disruption to their operations for possibly no cause. And if something bad did happen, most of those people could be replaced. (We are talking a spy house here. Cutting losses and occasionally burning your own people is part of business.)

That would also explain why their was no exodus of the smaller diviners.
Of course the lesser diviners may well have picked something up the hour before the disaster, but that wouldn't have been enough time to run.

Stephen

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 01:15 AM
That is assumption you're making about the inventors. If you look at this dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050725a), you can see that there are places such spells could come from.

I'm sure Mordain the flesh weaver would take issue with your claim that he doesn't exist. :smallwink:

You are quoting me out of context. I was responding to another poster who posted that half the PHB spells did not exist in ECS until the last century in game. That is one of the things I have an issue with regarding the setting. Lame excuses why core D&D material does not exist in ECS.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 01:16 AM
Thanks, I just checked and you're right (that's what comes from just taking what posters asy as correct).

That's still simpler. The best Diviners started having problems scying in Cyre, as if a wall in the future existed. The Head of the house arranged for the leading members (who it would really hurt to lose) were out of the country until thye worked out what was happening. The minor people were left, afterall pulling everyone out on a nebulous threat would cause immense disruption to their operations for possibly no cause. And if something bad did happen, most of those people could be replaced. (We are talking a spy house here. Cutting losses and occasionally burning your own people is part of business.)

That would also explain why their was no exodus of the smaller diviners.
Of course the lesser diviners may well have picked something up the hour before the disaster, but that wouldn't have been enough time to run.

Stephen

Do us all the courtesy of citing the source since you checked.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 01:31 AM
Technically a 13th lev Artificer can do this.
With a bunch of Magewrights you can probably maintain a reasonable construction rate with the Artificer binding the elemental and the magewrights making the rest of the ship.

Stephen

I never posted a level 13 artificer couldn't create elemental vessels just what the creation requirements are.

I have posted several times which is never acknowledged that according to Keith's ECS Demographics Dragonshard article on 7/14/07 these high level artificers do not exist in Zilargo with 1D3 +8 for highest level artificers in a Metropolis in this case Trolanport.

According to Keith'd demographic article the only place in ECS you can find a level 13 or 14 artificer is in the metropolis of Fairhaven in Aundair. Otherwise it is level 11 or 12 max.

Now if these high level caster types exist in your campaign great but then they should have the ability to make gates and portals because it is a Craft Wonderous Item feat and permanent teleporation circles just require a permanency spell because these are core feats and spells. Gate and Portals are not limited to FRCS they appear in other core material as I have posted on this thread.

Yahzi
2007-08-08, 01:38 AM
Sure, an inventive type might think to try it, but that can be explained away by saying that the Edison or Einstein for that idea hasn't arrived yet.
But... aren't all these wizards geniuses?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 01:49 AM
I apologize if I'm repeating points; I didn't have time to read every post before this.

And your reasoning does have a flaw. In order to consistently make large amounts of money from your dragonmark abilities, you're going to have to make it a business. Sure, you might make some money off of a single use of an Orien teleport. If there's a customer with enough money currently available, If you and said customer cross paths, etc. And that's only one time. Turning into a consistent source of money means putting work into marketing, guild approval, and building a client base. Eventually, you'd have to decide "Do I go adventuring, or humor the guild representatives that wanted the meeting today?" If you choose the former, then your guild isn't happy with you and stands in the way of your guild stamp, which harms the money you make. If you choose the latter, then you're not much of an adventurer anymore.


As for the gate problem, I don't agree. A wizard or artificer focusing on elemental binding probably isn't interested in gate magic, except as a vehicle to deliver elementals. He just wants to use his Elemental Binding feat. He might not even have Craft Wondrous Item. This goes double for the wizards and artificers that make a career out of building elemental vessels. They're interested in building more airships so they can get paid now, not working on a portal network that might or might not yield them money. Sure, an inventive type might think to try it, but that can be explained away by saying that the Edison or Einstein for that idea hasn't arrived yet.



If you are a Dragon Marked Heir there is already a business infrastructrue in place.

I kept it simple standard setting ability prices with 1/4 to the house, 1/4 for favors, 1/4 for taxes and 1/4 for the PC using the Wayfarer PRC with the 20% discount none of that 10 GP by the mile stuff in Sharn City of Towers minimum of 300 GP page 13.

Sharn City of Towers population 200,000 describes the number of Greater and Siberys heirs in Sharn regularly for several houses. In some houses very few to none of either in some form despite having over a hundred heirs in some houses.

Compare that against the ECS prices for travelling from Metropolis to Metropolis or other large city by the lightning rail or elemental vessel at middle class or luxury fare by the mile saving time and money.

Reread the class Artificers get Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 the only feat needed to make a gate/portal.

Where did I say they were making the portals for free? Conditional portals with the standard 30% discount are generally cheaper to build than most elemental vessels.

illathid
2007-08-08, 02:23 AM
You are quoting me out of context. I was responding to another poster who posted that half the PHB spells did not exist in ECS until the last century in game. That is one of the things I have an issue with regarding the setting. Lame excuses why core D&D material does not exist in ECS.

Yeah, I was that poster, so it wasn't out of context.

Anyways it looks like our very own Pinky's brain brought this subject (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13343616&postcount=39) up on WotC' s Eberron boards. This is Keith Baker's response:




The problem with teleportation circles is that if you have NPCs around which can bind huge elementals into elemental vessels you have characters around which can create permanent teleportation circles (takes a 15th level artificer ... or a 14th level one with an orange ioun stone). If available teleportation circles simply make far more sense to create

AH! Got it. So they don't exist, but you're curious WHY they don't exist.

Two reasons: not enough high level casters, and no one's managed to figure out how to do it.

Casters first. It takes a 15th-level artificer. By the demographics table, the highest level artificer you could possibly find is a 14th level artificer in an Aundairian metropolis. According to James Wyatt's breakdown for Sharn, the highest level artificer there is 11th level. Most high-level magic is accomplished using eldritch machines which let multiple low-level characters combine their skills over an extended period of time to produce higher-level results... but only to produce a very specific type of thing. A creation forge creates warforged; you can't use it to make iron golems. And the warforged themselves were a project developed over the course of decades, and requiring the innovation of a brilliant man.

Which brings us to the second point: Innovation. In Eberron, magic is treated as a science. Which means that things aren't always possible. We can imagine nanobots and zero point energy, but we haven't managed to make them work. Eberron operates on the same principles. If something is being done, people know how to replicate it. But introducing something entirely new - like mass teleportation - requires a scientific breakthrough like any other form of science. Note that it took the Zil 179 years to make the leap from lightning rail to airship. It's not that they weren't trying; it's that it took that amount of time to figure out the support ring, the aerodynamics, devorcing the vehcile from the conductor stones, and so on. The reason House Sivis' speaking stone network hasn't been replaced by use-activated sending items (iSend) is because no artificer has managed to crack the sending puzzle. Tasker's Dream - the Sivis think tank is working on it, along with psionic techniques. You can be certain House Orien has been working on mass teleportation for ages - but they haven't broken it yet.

What does this mean for PCs? That's up to the DM. PCs are exceptional people. Perhaps the PC artificer CAN create whatever he wants, solving puzzles that have baffled others for centuries. The DM can impose restrictions; "You can make a sending item, but not teleportation." Or, it can be part of an adventure. The giants of Xen'drik had a teleportation network. You can't just steal theirs; it's not that simple (this is discussed in more detail in this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php%3Fp%3D13336617%23post13336617). But perhaps studying a giant teleportation system - or even retaining its essence - will help a PC learn how to make his own. Hence it becomes an adventure as opposed to simply "I want this." The same principle can also apply to non-core spells - especially spells that should have a major impact on the setting, such as the BoVD's screw possessor spells as a weapon against quori. You can choose not to allow them - or you can make learning them an adventure in itself (something discussed in Secrets of Sarlona, Secrets of Xen'drik, and Dragons of Eberron).

But the short form: magic is a science, and as such innovation takes time and genius. Certain principles have been established; others remain a mystery. The Zil know how to bind elementals and have magical tools to assist with these tasks; they have no idea how to make a teleportation circle.

I don't know if it's worth a Dragonshard on its own, but perhaps there's more that can be done with it.


Please note that this is what I had said earlier, although not in such an eloquent and well thought out manner. :smalltongue:

Stephen_E
2007-08-08, 02:29 AM
Do us all the courtesy of citing the source since you checked.

The ECS. I didn't mention it because the poster I was quoting refered to it.
Pg 236 Phairlan House.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2007-08-08, 02:39 AM
I never posted a level 13 artificer couldn't create elemental vessels just what the creation requirements are.

I have posted several times which is never acknowledged that according to Keith's ECS Demographics Dragonshard article on 7/14/07 these high level artificers do not exist in Zilargo with 1D3 +8 for highest level artificers in a Metropolis in this case Trolanport.

According to Keith'd demographic article the only place in ECS you can find a level 13 or 14 artificer is in the metropolis of Fairhaven in Aundair. Otherwise it is level 11 or 12 max.

Now if these high level caster types exist in your campaign great but then they should have the ability to make gates and portals because it is a Craft Wonderous Item feat and permanent teleporation circles just require a permanency spell because these are core feats and spells. Gate and Portals are not limited to FRCS they appear in other core material as I have posted on this thread.

I was pointing out that you didn't need a 15th lev character to make them.

As for then making a teleportation circle. It takes a 15th lev Artificer to do that. According to you their is a 13th level Artificer around (good enough to make the Elemtal ship engine) but you don't mention the 15th lev needed for the Teleportation circle. You seem to blithely skip the difference between 13th and 15th level.

Yes, portals exist in core, but the larger portals you've been quoting have been from FRCS. A 5' radius portal is considerablly less useful commercially than a 15' radius circle.

Stephen

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 02:54 AM
I can live without gates and portals and teleportation circles in ECs particularly in someone else's game although they are core.

I like the Hellcow post on the board you found but feel you have to draw the line somewhere with your material. My understanding is that is one of the basic posting premises here at GitP.

IMO core material trumps a thread posting even by a designer unless it is addressed in a source book or a Wizard's web article or a Wizard's Sage ruling because the designer couldn't get Wizard's approval or sanction of the merit of the idea and get it incorporated into a source book or web article. I like Monte Cook and his material but a lot of people don't so I don't normally argue it in a thread.

It isn't just not having gates and portals in game what I find lame it is having the ongoing fabrication of elemental vessels in game I have an issue with because of ECS demographics although many people don't for flavor reasons.

I don't like the we can do elemental vessels with a schema arguement but not what you are proposing. The giants did this. Personally I don't care for the arguements there is no Gate schemas or explorers haven't found a gate schema yet or the Gate Keepers destroyed them all.

What are those Druid Gatekeepers doing in ECS? Oh wait they only know how to guard a gate or stop a gate from working. All the knowledge of making them was completely destroyed maybe that works for some people. I have an issue with that kind of reasoning based on the core material and the ECS.

Look at Hellcow's post like I have been saying throughout the thread to make an elemental vessel is CL15. Sure this can be accomplished by an artificer 13 but they only have the possibility of existing in two countries according to Keith. Aundair and Karrnath in the metropolis of Fairhaven and Korth like I have posted. Not Zilargo or Sharn.

Serenity
2007-08-08, 09:25 AM
Hmm, and why are those Gatekeepers guarding gates? Oh, yeah, to stop the daelkyr from invading Ebberon again. Which right there is avery good reason for people not to mess around with gates. Really, we've given you about a dozen reasons why there aren't portals in Eberron, including

* Messing around with that sort of dimensional magic could be dangerous in the Eberron cosmology
* The schema doesn't exist/hasn't yet been found, so no assembly line work allowed like on airships
* There are factions with vested interests in lightning rail and airships that don't want a portal system taking away any business.
* In the wake of a century-long war, with tensions running so high that it could start up again anytime, kingdoms realize it's probably not the smartest idea to have a portal that could potentially allow an enemy army to appear right in the middle of your major cities.

All your points have been addressed over and over in a myriad of possible explanations, but you simply repeat the same creed, and tell us that we're making 'lame excuses.' If you want portals, than by all means include them in your Eberron campaign. But you're just making a mountain out of a molehill--ineed, you're making the molehill.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-08, 10:32 AM
* Messing around with that sort of dimensional magic could be dangerous in the Eberron cosmology
And a nuclear bomb might ignite the atmosphere. As Hellcow said, magic is a science ... the science makes it pretty clear it's not on the cards.

Saying that Elemental Vessel creation is done with schema's is completely not in line with existing fluff, so the high level casters should be there ... even if there are very few of them that doesn't really deal with the problem of history (permanent circles remain until dispelled, you don't need to create a lot of them in a short time to have a lot of them around).

Hellcow basically acknowledged that the spell is a problem by declaring teleportation circle an unknown spell, unfortunately that is a houserule ... a caster can take any core spell without research.

His solution proves it's an issue ... even if it is a non solution.

Bryn
2007-08-08, 11:32 AM
Does it matter that much whether or not Eberron has teleportation circles per RAW? If you think that they should be there, then houserule that the network exists... if not, it doesn't. Simple enough :smallamused:

Otherwise, just enjoy the rest of the setting. :smallsmile:

Serenity
2007-08-08, 02:21 PM
And a nuclear bomb might ignite the atmosphere. As Hellcow said, magic is a science ... the science makes it pretty clear it's not on the cards.

Saying that Elemental Vessel creation is done with schema's is completely not in line with existing fluff, so the high level casters should be there ... even if there are very few of them that doesn't really deal with the problem of history (permanent circles remain until dispelled, you don't need to create a lot of them in a short time to have a lot of them around).

Hellcow basically acknowledged that the spell is a problem by declaring teleportation circle an unknown spell, unfortunately that is a houserule ... a caster can take any core spell without research.

His solution proves it's an issue ... even if it is a non solution.

To the first point: Xoriat. The Land of Dreams. The Gatekeepers were formed with the express purpose of preventing another Daelkyr incursion. So it's pretty well established how planar magic could have disastrous effects.

To your claim that schema aren't in line with existing fluff, I point you to Keith Baker's own words: "Most high-level magic is accomplished using eldritch machines which let multiple low-level characters combine their skills over an extended period of time to produce higher-level results... but only to produce a very specific type of thing."

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 08:48 PM
To the first point: Xoriat. The Land of Dreams. The Gatekeepers were formed with the express purpose of preventing another Daelkyr incursion. So it's pretty well established how planar magic could have disastrous effects.

To your claim that schema aren't in line with existing fluff, I point you to Keith Baker's own words: "Most high-level magic is accomplished using eldritch machines which let multiple low-level characters combine their skills over an extended period of time to produce higher-level results... but only to produce a very specific type of thing."


My understanding is that those gates were to the plane of Xoriat the land of dreams and that is why they were so dangerous and deadly an always on and connected doorway into the prime and the world of Eberron. Not all gates are bad and dangerous.

I'll concede right off the bat that with the right spells if you leave a gate unattended if could be reprogrammed but not a lot of those characters around in ECS.

Gates are a very specific type of thing. My only objection to that type of crafting is when you make excuses why you can have one type of item but not another using that same process based on core material.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 09:11 PM
Hmm, and why are those Gatekeepers guarding gates? Oh, yeah, to stop the daelkyr from invading Ebberon again. Which right there is avery good reason for people not to mess around with gates. Really, we've given you about a dozen reasons why there aren't portals in Eberron, including

All your points have been addressed over and over in a myriad of possible explanations, but you simply repeat the same creed, and tell us that we're making 'lame excuses.' If you want portals, than by all means include them in your Eberron campaign. But you're just making a mountain out of a molehill--ineed, you're making the molehill.

IMO to the average run of the mill person on Eberron those Gatekeepers are probably some kind of nut cult. The average run of the mill person probably has no idea what a daelkyr is. How many centuries or millenia has it been since the last fully documented incursion much less most people seeing a few Xoriat monsters? Quite a bit. Probably not perceived as a threat by most of the world at best probably kinda along the lines of "Sure if a huge meteor hits the earth we will all be killed and have another ice age". Could happen tomorrow or not for several million years is my thinking for the average person in Eberron.

OP knew the setting was different and wanted to know potential problems with it. It is an interesting setting I find about a half dozen things with it lame or inconsistent because they could be so easily addressed (OT of the thread). I acknowledge many of my ECS issues have been responded to but do not concede that they were addressed. It felt more like other people were attacking my gate molehill than I was making it into a mountain.

Stephen_E
2007-08-08, 09:18 PM
Gates are a very specific type of thing. My only objection to that type of crafting is when you make excuses why you can have one type of item but not another using that same process based on core material.

Fair enough. Me, I'm don't consider core quite so untouchable.
Polymorth anyone?

Im my book the Setting designer is quite entitled to say (even if it's in only in answer to someones online question) that at the point his setting starts Spell "A" isn't known. He's not saying you can't have it, or that it's illegal. He's just saying that no one else living currently is known to have the spell.

Wotc errata/FAQ is for rules, not general setting infomation. So saying it's not correct unless added to the FAQ is silly.

Stephen

Serenity
2007-08-08, 09:25 PM
To be sure, the average Eberronian has no idea what a Daelkyr is. But there might be some lore available to the heads of houses, and the Gatekeeper's duty to prevent another incursion is more than enough reason to speculate that they might sabotage attempts to create new gates.

For that matter, there's a number of daelkyr created monsters running around the countryside, creatures that were once goblinoids before twisted experimentation--living evidence of the potential dangers of gates.

If you want gates in your Eberron, you've clearly given the matter sufficient thought to implement them. But to upbraid the game designer for failure to explicitly include them, especially using such language as 'lame' is an attack, and it is largely felt an unwarranted one.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-08, 09:34 PM
Comparing gates to teleportation circles is a bit mismatched. Permanent interplanar gates are artifact/epic level stuff and work similarly to the gate spell. Teleportation circles are just a more powerful forms of plain jane teleportation.

Sure in theory they work with planar magic (the astral plane) but it's still completely different from Gate.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 09:50 PM
The ECS. I didn't mention it because the poster I was quoting refered to it.
Pg 236 Phairlan House.

Stephen

Thankyou the same thing is mentioned in the PGtE in the Mournlands. Will have to keep looking to find that other source I saw with the costs listed for infromation from House Phiarlan.

Remembering that House Phiarlan Headquarters was based in Cyre before the Day of Mourning and that the House Deneith Headquarters is based in Karrlakton.

IMO Sharn City of Towers does the best job of describing a Dragon Marked House with the House of Deneith on pages 114, 148 & 149 if someone wants some kind of idea of the scope and composition of a dragon marked house. Perhaps you or other posters are aware of a better example.

The House Deneith operation (not head quarters) based in Sharn includes 200 members of the House Bloodline. 500 soldiers (49 heirs of Deneith (half with least and lesser dragon marks)) in the Blade Mark. 114 deneith heirs (33 without dragon marks, 75 with Least dragon marks and 7 with Lesser dragon marks) who are members of The Defender's Guild. There are 9 Sentinel Marshals.

There are No Deneith Dragon mark heirs with greater or siberys marks in Sharn population 200,000 with 200 members of the house bloodline (150 or so with Least or Lesser dragon marks (Seems like a 10 to 1 ratio of Least to Lesser)).

So when the ECS or PGtE says The original family enclave in Cyre was destroyed along with that nation, but as luck would have it all the leading members of the house were abroad on that fateful day.

Now to me that implies that anyone in the house with a Lesser mark or greater automatically escaped.

It also implies many of the Least and Unmarked Heirs also escaped because you can be a leading member of a house without a dragon mark. It is interesting that Baron Elvinor Elorrenthi d' Phiarlan is a LN Bard - 7 Shadow Dancer - 4. She is the House Matriarch and does not have any levels in the DMH PRC so it is uncertain exactly what dragon mark she does have as several other dragon marked house leaders do have those levels in the DMH PRC.

Now Cyre was House Phiarlan's Headquarters so doubling or tripling the size of the operations compared to the House Deneith operation in Sharn would not be unreasonable.

In that case we are talking several hundred to a thousand or more House Phiarlan members escaping the Day of Mourning despite the wording of the text in ECS and the PGtE.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 10:11 PM
I was pointing out that you didn't need a 15th lev character to make them.

As for then making a teleportation circle. It takes a 15th lev Artificer to do that. According to you their is a 13th level Artificer around (good enough to make the Elemtal ship engine) but you don't mention the 15th lev needed for the Teleportation circle. You seem to blithely skip the difference between 13th and 15th level.

Yes, portals exist in core, but the larger portals you've been quoting have been from FRCS. A 5' radius portal is considerablly less useful commercially than a 15' radius circle.

Stephen

I was just pointing out what the CL and spell requirements are along with the ECS demographics.

Regarding the second high level arcanists existed in the past according to ECS but all died off or disappeared during the last war and over thousands of years they didn't make anything except Meta rods. I don't understand why people don't find that odd.

So after having All the high level casters destroyed and no more casters around able to make high level magic items like Elemental Vessels except 1 or 2 in Fairhaven. We have the gnomes churning them out using a magical process that lesser casters can use but which can't be used on other core material like gates or teleporation circles.

Regarding the last you can make a portal with the Craft Wonderous Item feat. IMO FRCS has the best game mechanics of D&D portals by Wizard's of the Coast that doesn't make them FRCS portals. Other FRCS magic items brought into the ECS setting don't work differently because they are FRCS magic items because they are Wizard's of the Coast magic items.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 10:15 PM
Comparing gates to teleportation circles is a bit mismatched. Permanent interplanar gates are artifact/epic level stuff and work similarly to the gate spell. Teleportation circles are just a more powerful forms of plain jane teleportation.

Sure in theory they work with planar magic (the astral plane) but it's still completely different from Gate.

To the traveller the effect is basically the same.

You can make portals with Gate (For Planar traveling) or with Teleporation Circle for same world traveling.

Permanent Teleporation Circle is just a quick and dirty method which can be used to do it quickly in a day.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 10:19 PM
Fair enough. Me, I'm don't consider core quite so untouchable.
Polymorth anyone?

Im my book the Setting designer is quite entitled to say (even if it's in only in answer to someones online question) that at the point his setting starts Spell "A" isn't known. He's not saying you can't have it, or that it's illegal. He's just saying that no one else living currently is known to have the spell.

Wotc errata/FAQ is for rules, not general setting infomation. So saying it's not correct unless added to the FAQ is silly.

Stephen

So do Mirrors of Mental Prowess from the DMG work in ECS?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 10:56 PM
To be sure, the average Eberronian has no idea what a Daelkyr is. But there might be some lore available to the heads of houses, and the Gatekeeper's duty to prevent another incursion is more than enough reason to speculate that they might sabotage attempts to create new gates.

For that matter, there's a number of daelkyr created monsters running around the countryside, creatures that were once goblinoids before twisted experimentation--living evidence of the potential dangers of gates.

If you want gates in your Eberron, you've clearly given the matter sufficient thought to implement them. But to upbraid the game designer for failure to explicitly include them, especially using such language as 'lame' is an attack, and it is largely felt an unwarranted one.

I conceded the lore could be available and my opinion of how the typical person probably views it particularly a dragon mark house leader not getting regular reports on the danger of this problem. In your campaign it may warrant greater consideration.

It's a game. I like to have fun. I have more fun taking a portal from metropolis to metropolis normally and hiring an elemental vessel for a few days or a week or taking the lightning rail some distance before gearing up for the expedition/adventure. Having an adventure occasionally as a Danger Wayfarer or stopping the pirates or the train robbers is fun when it becomes routine I find it quite a bit less enjoyable.

I don't like world killer campaigns. IMO that is what Xoriat is if they can come through a gate as many posters surmise. Particularly one of the unattended unknown gates in the wilderness somewhere.

If it was that simple for a planar invasion the way many believe it to be. The knowledge would have been provided in some form via dreams, outsiders and other methods from Xoriat to make it happen.

The typical Daelkyr with a 25 intelligence in ECS should be considered a weak type of their kind PGtE. So they should have No trouble outthinking the majority of the Gatekeepers or most players. Plans in plans several steps ahead of most wizards whose primary ability is intelligence. Lots of them and thousands of years to make it happen only being opposed by the GateKeepers which is basically a small cult as far as most people are concerned.

So with thousands of years to do it and lots of sealed gates they haven't successfully invaded yet and to me it is a moot point.

When was the last incursion in game? When was the last time those goblins messed with a house matriarch or patricarch personally?

At best the house matriarch or patriarch probably got a condensed report that some kinda monster (goblins) caused a problem and a brief summary of how it was resolved if they got any kind of detailed report at all other than we handled it by a trusted assistant or advisor. In a game context they are busy individuals on par with the various rulers of countries with lots of problems and demands on their time.

I believe lame is still the best word for the aspects I cited in this thread. Lame a weak or unconvincing aspect (of the setting). There are quite a few stronger and truly insulting words. I didn't insult the designer. No setting is perfect and only having issue with a half dozen aspects of ECS is a compliment to the designer.

Yahzi
2007-08-09, 02:06 AM
Does it matter that much whether or not Eberron has teleportation circles per RAW? If you think that they should be there, then houserule that the network exists...
Why should we have to house-rule everything?

If Eberron as a setting does not support teleportation circles, then the Eberron materials should plainly state: "For this setting, the following spells/artifacts are banned: teleportation circles."

All we are asking is for the guys who wrote Eberron to write down all their house rules. That's what we paid for when we bought the book. House rules. Settings. Etc. If they forgot to write important stuff down, then they made a mistake.

Yahzi
2007-08-09, 02:09 AM
I believe lame is still the best word for the aspects I cited in this thread.
I think that's exactly right.

Stephen_E
2007-08-09, 03:37 AM
So do Mirrors of Mental Prowess from the DMG work in ECS?

If someone has made one then probably yes.

The Gate aspect is the dodgy part.
Of course it's quite likely that none currently exist other than in ruins in Xen'Drik.
CL 17, and some of those spells may well not have been known in the current civalisation until recently.

Stephen

Serenity
2007-08-09, 09:19 AM
Why should we have to house-rule everything?

If Eberron as a setting does not support teleportation circles, then the Eberron materials should plainly state: "For this setting, the following spells/artifacts are banned: teleportation circles."

All we are asking is for the guys who wrote Eberron to write down all their house rules. That's what we paid for when we bought the book. House rules. Settings. Etc. If they forgot to write important stuff down, then they made a mistake.

By not explicitly stating the existence or lack thereof of gates, the designers those of you who want gates to include them if you're willing to put in the work to integrate them into the setting, while those people not looking to pick holes can take the setting at face value. The designers provided in the core rules all the necessary house rules. Things like portals are left to the purview of the DM, as it should be. Many of us feel that such a piece of transportation doesn't fit with the flavor of Eberron, and we've provided a number of logical reasons why portals shouldn't 'have to' exist. None of this stops you from inserting portals into your game if you desire.

puppyavenger
2007-08-09, 09:41 AM
to the OP

some things to remember
don't mess with the dragonmark houses
don't mess with the contries
don't mess with the dragons
don't mess with the dalkyr
don't mess with vol

for the portal dicussion the eleves have them http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050613a

Citizen Joe
2007-08-09, 10:26 AM
Kundarak house has them too. They have small boxes that you can put valuables in. Then the contents get transported to any other box. Limited to a few pounds though. Thus no demon jumping out of the box. They also move, so it isn't actually a fixed position.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-09, 10:42 AM
Man. Setting inconsistencies are serious business.

Thrawn183
2007-08-09, 03:23 PM
I'm getting one heck of a "keep your hands and feet inside the vehicle or something will slaughter you and your entire extended family" vibe from you guys. Is this a campaign setting thing or do you just have spiteful DM's?

puppyavenger
2007-08-09, 03:34 PM
No I just wanted to point out there were portals.

Just Alex
2007-08-09, 03:49 PM
to the OP

some things to remember
don't mess with the dragonmark houses
don't mess with the contries
don't mess with the dragons
don't mess with the dalkyr
don't mess with vol

for the portal dicussion the eleves have them http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050613a


Correction. Don't mess with all the dragonmark houses. I've spent the last 5 levels being a **** to Cannith East and showing up Denith.
I've also dropped a large sized steel statue on a powerful Vol necromancer.
It's like my mom always says, if you get in a fight with someone bigger than you, find a rock big enough to even the odds.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-09, 04:32 PM
It all boils down to whether or not the DM wants teleportation portals. Someone said that the portals were core and thus should be there, but I think they were referring to Forgotten Realms portals, which isn't core, its campaign setting specific. Then you get the teleportation circle spell, which is pretty high level. Making it permanent requires level 17 AND 4500 xp a pop. Plus material components of 1000 gp. So there is an investment involved to make this. And the portal can be killed by moving a big block of stone into the destination zone (no teleporting into solid objects)


The spell fails if you attempt to set the circle to teleport creatures into a solid object, to a place with which you are not familiar and have no clear description, or to another plane.

This is different from normal teleportation in that it doesn't shunt you off to an available space, it simply doesn't work. Thus, even if there WERE teleportation circle networks before the Last War, they would have been blocked for security reasons. i.e. big old house built there.

Much of the wondrous magic of Eberron is performed using magic macguffins to allow lesser casters combine their efforts to create something powerful. However, there are very few people around of the sufficient level to do so otherwise.

The elves of the Undying Court are a special exception to this rule. They are very likely to have the power do do this, but they are restricted to their homeland.

This allows the DM to set up his campaign world without a public teleportation network while maintaining the ability to move people around at the speed of plot. And it allows for PC's to set up such a network during game play. But do you really want to go through 17 levels of game play just to set up permanent teleportation circles for the masses?

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-09, 05:43 PM
I'm getting one heck of a "keep your hands and feet inside the vehicle or something will slaughter you and your entire extended family" vibe from you guys. Is this a campaign setting thing or do you just have spiteful DM's?
No, this is a thread devolving into the closest giantitp gets to a massive flamewar (i.e. a minor but lengthy spat), and I'm sorry to have contributed to it.

Or were you talking specifically about teleportation magic? I've lost track.

If it's the former, no. In any campaign setting, individual groups are absolutely free to do as they like (which is why this argument is verging on the ridiculous). Eberron encourages it even more; it's splatbooks are more outlines and ideas, and less Forgotten Realms-style atlases and almanacs. Not that the latter's bad, mind you. It's just a different style.

If you're talking about teleportation magic...yeah, that's spiteful DM's. There are some nasty thing's floating around in Eberron's cosmology, but most of them don't just randomly snatch people out of the Astral Plane. Unless the plot requires it.

Iku Rex
2007-08-09, 06:43 PM
Man. Setting inconsistencies are serious business.Indeed. Everyone agrees.

Pics:
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/dognolaughingmatter-mark.jpg

http://www.knitemare.org/cats/serious_cat.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/5ykepaw.jpg(Sorry. Carry on everyone. :smallsmile: )

Serenity
2007-08-09, 06:46 PM
No, this is a thread devolving into the closest giantitp gets to a massive flamewar (i.e. a minor but lengthy spat), and I'm sorry to have contributed to it.

Or were you talking specifically about teleportation magic? I've lost track.

If it's the former, no. In any campaign setting, individual groups are absolutely free to do as they like (which is why this argument is verging on the ridiculous). Eberron encourages it even more; it's splatbooks are more outlines and ideas, and less Forgotten Realms-style atlases and almanacs. Not that the latter's bad, mind you. It's just a different style.

If you're talking about teleportation magic...yeah, that's spiteful DM's. There are some nasty thing's floating around in Eberron's cosmology, but most of them don't just randomly snatch people out of the Astral Plane. Unless the plot requires it.

I think the post may have been in reference to posts saying "don't mess wth the houses, countries, dragons, daelkyr, etc."

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-09, 07:18 PM
Oh. Well, in that case, just make sure you're messing with one major faction on behalf of another. And don't worry about beating up the Emerald Claw. Nobody likes those guys.

puppyavenger
2007-08-09, 07:41 PM
Sorry I meant unless it was an obivios plothook or you have backing

Yahzi
2007-08-09, 10:16 PM
By not explicitly stating the existence or lack thereof of gates, the designers those of you who want gates to include them if you're willing to put in the work to integrate them into the setting,
The first point is that they don't fit into the setting.

The second point is that you are perfectly allowed to integrate anything into your campaign if you're willing to do the work. You can run Eberron with spaceships and no elves, if you really want to.

The authors of Eberron should have done a better job of detailing their vision. The reason they didn't is obvious: they were not allowed to "break" any of the Core rules. For marketing reasons.


we've provided a number of logical reasons why portals shouldn't 'have to' exist.
And they're fine and creative reasons! My point is that the guys who wrote Eberron and got paid for it should have provided those reasons, instead of relying on you to provide them for free.

I blame Bill Gates... he's taught everyone that tech support should be provided by the customer.

:smallbiggrin:

Thrawn183
2007-08-09, 10:35 PM
Actually, a lot of posts earlier seemed to just rack of general geographic regions that shouldn't even be enterred. I read up on a few of them and... they don't sound too pretty. Who wants to go to a dead land ruled by unhappy warforged?

Miraqariftsky
2007-08-09, 11:11 PM
Actually, a lot of posts earlier seemed to just rack of general geographic regions that shouldn't even be enterred. I read up on a few of them and... they don't sound too pretty. Who wants to go to a dead land ruled by unhappy warforged?

The Mournland was previously Cyre... and Cyre was the homeland of the Cyran people, formerly the rulers of Old Galifar. Of course some of them want to retake their heritage. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Cyre the centre of Galifar's artistic and cultural traditions? Also, if I'm not mistaken, Cyre was the most fertile of the Five Nations--- giving druids an added motivation to retaking the Mournland.

Oh, and don't forget that Metrol, capital of Cyre, once held the nerve centre of House Cannith's operations!

And to all mages and any other folk interested in esoteric mysteries, there's still the issue of discovering how and why the Mourning was caused and how it can be prevented.

To Tharashks, Deneiths and any other mercenary-minded bounty hunters, the Mournland is a trove of many wondrous, if dangerous treasures.

Dhavaer
2007-08-09, 11:39 PM
Greyhawk based fluff about the invention of PHB spells isn't relevant to other settings, Mordenkainen hasn't existed in Eberron not in the last century and not in any century (not in modern Forgotten Realms either BTW).

Since Mordy's from Greyhawk, I don't think he's ever existed in FR, modern or otherwise.

Kemper Boyd
2007-08-09, 11:55 PM
I think that the best part of Eberron is that all player characters get a maxed Badass-stat for free :)

Eberron is more socially advanced than most fantasy settings. This allows for nice characters like private inquisitives and condottieri-like mercenary captains, who actually have good reasons to adventure, unlike most people in other campaign settings.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-09, 11:55 PM
Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk used to be connected by Planescape and Spelljammer. Then WotC bought D&D, and realized that this much cross-referencing was half the reason TSR went out of business. In earlier editions, Mordy could have easily taken a walk through a couple Portals and the nice parts of Sigil to have tea with Elminster. Of course, being Mordenkainen, he was probably good enough to do the whole trips in a couple of Planeshifts and/or Gates.

This pointless tangent brought to you by Snacky Smores.

As to reasons to go to ludicrously dangerous places:

The Mournland:
1) Awesome House Cannith prototype loot.
2) A disproportionate amount of Galifar's artistic, cultural, and magical heritage.
3) Nostalgia.
4) Accident investigation. Really, really big accident investigation.
4) The Lord of Blades has continent-wide ambitions of conquest. Someone's gotta stop him.

The Demon Wastes:
1) Again, someone's got to kill demons.

Xen'drik:
1) You know that awesome House Cannith loot I mentioned earlier? They looted it from here, and there's much more.
2) Also, Dragonshards the size of your head and all the traditional mineral wealth of Africa.
3) Archaeology. Indiana Jones archaeology.

Argonessen:
Hell, the dragons will manipulate you into coming here eventually. And again, Dragonshards the size of your head.

Stephen_E
2007-08-10, 12:10 AM
And they're fine and creative reasons! My point is that the guys who wrote Eberron and got paid for it should have provided those reasons, instead of relying on you to provide them for free.


You seem to miss one of the themes of Ebberon.
Anything from DnD can be put in.

If they specifically ban portals then they can't exist.
If they simply don't put them in, then they are there in the known world (at least not to the degree that they're commonly known off) but you can insert them without breaking the setting rules.

I'm not aware of them mentioning drinkable indoor running water. Do you wish to complain of their "lameness" for not clearly specifying whether indoor running water is common or not. It's certainly possible within DnD general magic and Ebberon magic "tech".

Stephen