Playing and Possibly Fixing the Eldritch Knight

[Daltry]

I was reading and then posted in another thread (Eldritch Knight-what's the point) witch was closed for being too old and since I am currently playing one in a level 16 game I wanted to post my thoughts on the Eldritch Knight.

First I think they have 2 main weaknesses.

The first comes at 5th level. The fighter gets extra attack. The champion can get 2 chances to score his improved criticals. a gamble but over all improving his odds, he levels up. The battlemaster can apply his maneuvers and superiority dice to another attack and clearly improves. The EK on the other hand doesn't really increase at this level. He simply gets a choice, cast or attack with weapons. Using something like booming blade or green flame blade as his cast he can roll once and on a hit do extra damage but on a miss gets nothing for his turn. Or he can get 2 chances to hit but only doing the weapon attack damage. If he only lands one blow he does less damage than a hit with the cantrip. There are times that this choice comes in handy like if your fighting a creature vulnerable to fire use the GFB but if fighting a creature with fire resistance or immunity go with the pure weapon attack. Most of the time it will simply be a choice of which one you think will average out better. Clearly the EK doesn't actually level up at this level but rather gets held back. When he gets to level 7 he gets and extra action on a cantrip attack but now he's just where he should have been 2 levels ago. So when everyone else levels up again at level 7 your going "slow down guys, wait for me. I'm just getting to level 5."

The second comes at higher levels. He doesn't have big spells and he doesn't have things like paladin smites etc. that give him big damage against the strong creatures.

On the plus side it's fun to play this character and be able to use magic and melee together. It's a battle strategy character and you have to put more thought than usual into when to use which option which spells to pick, and how to use both together to optimize him which is something that I personally like about the character. and he has one cool feature that few if any single class magic users can do. By using action surge he can cast 2 full spells on a single turn. Those spells could potentially be. 2 lightning bolts, 2 fireballs, one of each, or blight and one of the other 2. A pretty powerful combo even into the mid teen levels and he can do it twice at higher levels though his big spell slots are limited.

The other thread had a lot of discussion on the find familiar spell which I use and like a lot so I wanted to add my thoughts on that. I would recommend this spell and would recommend choosing the owl for his flyby (no attacks of opportunity) on the help action. It's a bit confusing that he can't attack on his own but you can attack through him with something like shocking grasp, which is a cool trick. I mostly wanted to comment on the fact that you don't have to waste a spell slot in a battle for this. You can cast it ahead of time. there is no time limit on it. You could cast it right before a rest and then rest and regain all slots and your familiar is with you until you dismiss it or it gets hit. Also they don't die. It's not a real animal but rather a fey, celestial (my choice) or fiend. When they get hit they lose there corporeal form. Yes you loose them in that fight but you can summon them again later and it's the same fey, celestial or fiend in what ever form you summon them in. You would again cast it before a rest if you have any spell slots left and regain them all during your rest. I've used mine since third level and still do. I try not to over use him or use him in a predictable way so as to avoid ready actions. I've only had to re summon him once.

I chose booming blade and ray of frost for my first cantrips and shield, absorb elements and find familiar as my first 3 spells. I took protection from good and evil at 4th and changed out ray of frost for green flame blade. I also took thee magic initiate feat for some extra versatility choosing true strike and eldritch blast as my cantrips and hex as my spell. I eventually took shocking grasp as my last cantrip but have traded back and forth for blade ward as well as I test out different options.

some of the other spells I like are shatter, magic mirror, fireball, lightning bolt, enlarge or reduce, magic weapon, and greater invisibility. I've used several of these and would like to swap some out to try different things but I think they all play into how I think and EK should be played and that is to use your magic to set up your melee and your melee to set up your magic.

If they ever want to fix the EK I think they could do so by using one of the following ideas to fix the level 5 problem.

1- make green flame blade and booming blade bonus actions and increase the second target range of GFB just enough to make it more practical.

2- Give the EK an ability to make certain cantrips bonus actions. Word it so it's limited to certain cantrips that are directly tied to melee attacks. cantrips like Green flame blade, booming blade, true strike or blade ward would be included but things like ray of frost, frostbite or fire bolt would not.

3 - Make a couple of new cantrips with the EK as the main intended recipient.

I actually talked to my dm about home brewing a cantrip for our next game. My idea was this

Sun Sword
bonus action
range - touch

you cast a spell on a melee weapon which you hold in your hand and you must attack with it on the same turn or the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects and radiant energy leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 15 feet of it. The second creature takes radiant damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier. This spell's damage increases when you reach higher levels.

At higher levels

At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 radiant damage to the target, and the radiant damage to the second creature increases to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level and 17th level.


familiar I know but it fixes all the problems I see with green flame blade and booming blade. It's a bonus action that allows you to take your regular action and your extra attack, it increases the range of the damage to the second creature to 15 feet. Not an over powered spell but I have hardly ever seen 2 creatures within 5 feet of each other during a battle. and it's range is touch as you cast it on your weapon thus you could use a glaive, halberd, or other reach weapon to it's full potential if that's what you typically fight with.

I'm not completely sure what to do about the second issue I have with the EK. I saw the dawnforgecast video on Eldritch Knight reforged on youtube and while I didn't care for redesigning the whole character build I did think about his manna pool idea. What if the EK could pool his spell slots and create a couple of higher slots. use two 3rds or a 4th and 2nd to get a 6th or a 4th and a 3rd to get a seventh. That would give him a couple of shots at truly helping out in the big boss fights at higher levels especially against creatures who aren't effected by lower magic. At the same time he doesn't have enough spell slots to over use this so he wouldn't become to powerful or change from what type of character he is.

Those are my thoughts on the EK and my ideas for how to make him more on par with other characters as you go through the game. Any thoughts on my fixes would be cool to hear and any thoughts on how to finish the last 3 levels from experienced Ek'ers would be cool.

[Mongobear]

I have almost the exact opinion as you towards the EK.

IMO, the 7th level (and later improvement there of) should swap the triggering actions. i.e. instead of Cantrip(any spell) giving a single BA Attack, using the Attack action allows a BA Cantrip(any spell) this should also be the 3rd level feature, swapped with Weapon Bond, and since it is so strong they can afford a weaker feature in the middle levels.

[CaptainSarathai]

Eldritch Knight is a fine class. What's hurting you is the same thing that hurts a lot of Warlock players as well:
There's no 50/50 balance for a Gish in 5e, except maybe Paladin.

The SCAG Cantrips are perfectly balanced, just the way they are. Letting an EK bonus them is op. Cantrips which deal damage are designed to scale so that classes with fewer attacks have a way to keep up with the Fighter's basic Attack Action. Letting the fighter make 4 attacks and then cast SCAG on top of it, is just busted.

The Eldritch Knight really does two things: cast spells to modify the combat situation or buff himself (Shield)
OR
Action Surge to mix magic and swordplay.

EKs are a Fighter first, and a caster second. Just like BladeLocks are a caster first, and fighter second.

What we need isn't really a modified EK or even the Hexblade Warlock Pact. What we need, is a Hexblade class. Essentially, something that is an Arcane Paladin of some kind. A half-caster with Cantrips and attacks, and a tailored spell list.

[Specter]

It needs no fixing, believe me. I've seen many and played some.

At level 3 EKs can:
- Get a ranged cantrip for when they can't/don't want to reach their target;
- Get a melee cantrip to either damage two enemies at once or disincentivize a foe from moving;
- Get a familiar to have consistent advantage on attacks (if the enemies want to ravage the bird fine, it's less damage coming your way regardless);
- Get a reaction use to add +5 to AC;
- Get a reaction use to cut elemental damage in half, and still add 1d6 of that to their next attack.

This is just a sample spell list, of course, but not seeing the benefits of that is bananas.

The spells you cast with an action are only meant to be used when they'd be better than attacking. If there are 10 enemies huddling up together, you Shatter them. You shouldn't do it all the time, but other Fighters will sometimes want to do that and not be able to. EK is the second best martial against hordes, losing to Ranger.

About War Magic, it won't be obsolete when you reach level 11, but it becomes an optional feature: if you want to get enemies stuck, BB + attack. If you want to damage two guys, GFB + attack. If you want to help a friend, Frostbite + attack. Otherwise, attack thrice. All you need is strategy.

Also remember other fighter features at level 7 are not combat-oriented (with maybe the Champion as an exception). You're not missing out.

[Zardnaar]

The one thing they need is part of the warcaster feat in regards to somatic components.

Bonus action cantrip casting is OP with the SCAG cantrips and Eldritch Blast.

A custom gish class would also help. Closest thing is Fighter1/bladelock xyz or the divine Paladin.

[Clone]

I see where these are coming from and sure, there may be a way to alter these, but giving them a bonus action cantrip isn't the solution.
Using green flame blade and a longsword for an example, the EK at 7 would be doing:
1d8 + 4 x2 action
1d8 + 4 + 1d8 fire + int on another target.
Thats three attacks at level 7 without any feat investment, so add GWM on top of that and the numbers get crazy.
Then at level 11, you get three attack plus a bonus action attack with a LOT of fire or thunder damage (depending on the melee cantrip).

While EK may not be the "best" fighter subclass, giving them bonus action cantrips isn't the answer IMO

[Mongobear]

The SCAG Cantrips are perfectly balanced, just the way they are. Letting an EK bonus them is op. Cantrips which deal damage are designed to scale so that classes with fewer attacks have a way to keep up with the Fighter's basic Attack Action. Letting the fighter make 4 attacks and then cast SCAG on top of it, is just busted.


Now that I actually read what I said, yeah that idea was kind of horribly OP.

But, I still hold my opinion that EK is a poor attempt at a Gish. Their class features don't really do enough to facilitate the 'mixture of swordplay and sorcery' that was possible in older editions.

They need something that changes their turn to turn playstyle to attack > spell > attack > spell etc.

Something like "hitting a creature with a weapon attack give the disadvantage on saves against sells until the end of your next turn." and then "Hitting a creature with a spell causes your attacks to deal extra elemental damage until the end of your next turn."



What we need isn't really a modified EK or even the Hexblade Warlock Pact. What we need, is a Hexblade class. Essentially, something that is an Arcane Paladin of some kind. A half-caster with Cantrips and attacks, and a tailored spell list.


That would be the best solution, something like the Magus from Pathfinder or the Duskblade from 3.5.

[Daltry]

.

The SCAG Cantrips are perfectly balanced, just the way they are. Letting an EK bonus them is op. Cantrips which deal damage are designed to scale so that classes with fewer attacks have a way to keep up with the Fighter's basic Attack Action. Letting the fighter make 4 attacks and then cast SCAG on top of it, is just busted.

.

Being over powered is obviously relative to each individual game and what your dm throws at you but it's also about being on par with the other characters in your game. I like EK's that's why I play them and I'm fine with them the way that they are but I feel that they have less ability compared to other characters of the same level. There not supposed to be the most powerful spell caster or strongest warrior in your group but their combined abilities should put them on par with those characters. 3rd level EK's with GFB on 1 of 2 attacks (or even 2 of 4 once if you action surge) isn't going to put your level even with a sorcerer who can cast lightning bolt for 8d6 followed by a quickened firebolt for 1d10 and it's not going give you as much damage as a 2nd level paladin who has divine smite for 1d8 added to his weapon damage , or searing smite for 1d6 on the hit and another 1d6 on each turn until it makes a saving throw, or thunderous smite for 2d6 damage and on a failed save pushed ten feet and knocked prone. When he gets to 3rd you get channel divinity to add your charisma modifier to your attack rolls for a minute and a minimum of +1 to your weapon, turn the unholy against fiends and undead, and you get oath spells one of which is ensnaring strike which gives you 1d6 for multiple turns. Remember GFB as is doesn't do anything to the initial target at 3rd level and can only jump to a second target with in 5 feet which almost never happens. At fifth level it gives you 1d8 to the initial target in addition to the rare second target damage. So the base damage for gfb at 5th level is equal to a paladins 2nd level searing smite and gfb only levels to 3d8 while searing smite goes to 5d8. If the secondary damage was more frequent that would balance it out but you can hardly ever use it. So basically if you gave the EK my suggestions he's still be less than other classes but he'd be closer.

[Specter]

Being over powered is obviously relative to each individual game and what your dm throws at you but it's also about being on par with the other characters in your game. I like EK's that's why I play them and I'm fine with them the way that they are but I feel that they have less ability compared to other characters of the same level. There not supposed to be the most powerful spell caster or strongest warrior in your group but their combined abilities should put them on par with those characters. 3rd level EK's with GFB on 1 of 2 attacks (or even 2 of 4 once if you action surge) isn't going to put your level even with a sorcerer who can cast lightning bolt for 8d6 followed by a quickened firebolt for 1d10 and it's not going give you as much damage as a 2nd level paladin who has divine smite for 1d8 added to his weapon damage , or searing smite for 1d6 on the hit and another 1d6 on each turn until it makes a saving throw, or thunderous smite for 2d6 damage and on a failed save pushed ten feet and knocked prone. When he gets to 3rd you get channel divinity to add your charisma modifier to your attack rolls for a minute and a minimum of +1 to your weapon, turn the unholy against fiends and undead, and you get oath spells one of which is ensnaring strike which gives you 1d6 for multiple turns. Remember GFB as is doesn't do anything to the initial target at 3rd level and can only jump to a second target with in 5 feet which almost never happens. At fifth level it gives you 1d8 to the initial target in addition to the rare second target damage. So the base damage for gfb at 5th level is equal to a paladins 2nd level searing smite and gfb only levels to 3d8 while searing smite goes to 5d8. If the secondary damage was more frequent that would balance it out but you can hardly ever use it. So basically if you gave the EK my suggestions he's still be less than other classes but he'd be closer.

What you're forgetting (among other things) is that these cantrips cost you no resource whatsoever. Quickened Spell, Smite, Searing Smite, Channel Divinity, Ensnaring Strike... see how well you'll do after one or two fights.

[Daltry]

What you're forgetting (among other things) is that these cantrips cost you no resource whatsoever. Quickened Spell, Smite, Searing Smite, Channel Divinity, Ensnaring Strike... see how well you'll do after one or two fights.

I'm not forgetting anything. Yes you use sorcery points for quickened spells but you have more of them than a fighter has action surges and a sorcerers base spells at 3rd are more powerful even with out the metamagic. All characters have to pick and choose when and how to use their resources but when the time comes it's about who can do what.

[Specter]

I'm not forgetting anything. Yes you use sorcery points for quickened spells but you have more of them than a fighter has action surges and a sorcerers base spells at 3rd are more powerful even with out the metamagic. All characters have to pick and choose when and how to use their resources but when the time comes it's about who can do what.

Either that, or you haven't played the intended encounters for a day.

An EK at level 7 will use his War Magic with BB for 1d8+1d8+4, plus a bonus action attack for 1d8+4 (avg 21.5). This assuming a longsword and 18STR (could be 20 but let's assume he took War Caster). If the enemy moves he'll eat an extra 2d8, but let's forget about that for now.

A paladin can pull a Branding Smite along with a regular 1st-level smite for 5d8+1d8+4, and another attack for 1d8+4 (avg 39.5). Uuuuh! But... he can do this three times, after which he goes back to 2d8+8 (avg 17). *sad trombone*

The EK also has 6 spell slots at this point, which we'll assume he'll use as reactions for Shield. Let's say each reaction saves him from one attack (could be more), and that each attack deals 1d6+3 (could also be a lot more, considering the monsters you might face at level 7). So his spells saved him from taking 39 damage.

So not only would he naturally outlast the Paladin, even considering Lay on Hands, but he would live to see the Paladin burn his resources and become a worse version of him when it comes to damage, because 21.5 is better than 17 in the long run.

The only game where heavy-resource classes outshine low-resource ones is the game where you have one or two fights a day, then long rest. But that's not the reality D&D proposes. And I hope I don't have to come back to talk about the sorcerer.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Eldritch Knight is the most powerful and popular fighter subclass by far. That doesn't need fixing.

[Daltry]

Either that, or you haven't played the intended encounters for a day.

An EK at level 7 will use his War Magic with BB for 1d8+1d8+4, plus a bonus action attack for 1d8+4 (avg 21.5). This assuming a longsword and 18STR (could be 20 but let's assume he took War Caster). If the enemy moves he'll eat an extra 2d8, but let's forget about that for now.

A paladin can pull a Branding Smite along with a regular 1st-level smite for 5d8+1d8+4, and another attack for 1d8+4 (avg 39.5). Uuuuh! But... he can do this three times, after which he goes back to 2d8+8 (avg 17). *sad trombone*

The EK also has 6 spell slots at this point, which we'll assume he'll use as reactions for Shield. Let's say each reaction saves him from one attack (could be more), and that each attack deals 1d6+3 (could also be a lot more, considering the monsters you might face at level 7). So his spells saved him from taking 39 damage.

So not only would he naturally outlast the Paladin, even considering Lay on Hands, but he would live to see the Paladin burn his resources and become a worse version of him when it comes to damage, because 21.5 is better than 17 in the long run.

The only game where heavy-resource classes outshine low-resource ones is the game where you have one or two fights a day, then long rest. But that's not the reality D&D proposes. And I hope I don't have to come back to talk about the sorcerer.

You basically just said that the paladin does nearly twice the damage for 3 turns and then almost as much for every turn after that. It would take many rounds for the EK's damage to surpass the paladins. In some situations that will come into play but in others you may not last that long if you can't take a creature out in fewer rounds. Just as you may go through a dungeon or castle where you get in several fights a day but many other times as you travel from place to place 2-3 fights a day would be the max. In my experiences those situations balance themselves out but the characters do not. And yes shield is a great spell but not when you fight something that can surpass your ac even with shield on a regular basis. In those situations you need as much offense as possible in the fewest turns possible.

[mgshamster]

You basically just said that the paladin does nearly twice the damage for 3 turns and then almost as much for every turn after that. It would take many rounds for the EK's damage to surpass the paladins.

Well, let's figure it out.

39.5-21.5 = 18. X3 = 54 additional damage.

After that, the EK does 4.5 additional damage.

54/4.5 = 12 attacks to match.

At 7th level, that's six rounds, or 2 combats with an average of 3 rounds per combat. Can be reduced with action surge.

Not too bad.

[Daltry]

Well, let's figure it out.

39.5-21.5 = 18. X3 = 54 additional damage.

After that, the EK does 4.5 additional damage.

54/4.5 = 12 attacks to match.

At 7th level, that's six rounds, or 2 combats with an average of 3 rounds per combat. Can be reduced with action surge.

Not too bad.

It's not bad but again fighting your way through a dungeon you might have several fights in a day but traveling between places you may have 2-3 or maybe even just 1 but against a powerful creature so which is better is entirely circumstantial but a paladin can always put out more power but an EK will only occasionally have the opportunity to outlast him.

[Specter]

You basically just said that the paladin does nearly twice the damage for 3 turns and then almost as much for every turn after that. It would take many rounds for the EK's damage to surpass the paladins. In some situations that will come into play but in others you may not last that long if you can't take a creature out in fewer rounds. Just as you may go through a dungeon or castle where you get in several fights a day but many other times as you travel from place to place 2-3 fights a day would be the max. In my experiences those situations balance themselves out but the characters do not. And yes shield is a great spell but not when you fight something that can surpass your ac even with shield on a regular basis. In those situations you need as much offense as possible in the fewest turns possible.

- I don't know, let's do the math for 13 rounds of combat, shall we? We should be able to agree that with 3 fights, with an average of 4.3 rounds, you could pull those off in any adventuring day.

Paladin
39.5x3=118.5
17x10=170
Total: 288.5

EK
21x13=273

Paladin is a bit ahead. Oh wait, I conveniently forgot Action Surge, which would give EK an extra 17. So now we have EK 290, Paladin 288.5. How nice! If you stick a short rest in between any of those fights, EK is also getting +12.5 HP and +17 damage again. You could try to argument in favor of less rounds, but still the EK would be getting very close and taking way less damage. Should I also add two targets that moved after that Booming Blade, so I get another 4d8?

- About the AC, you're saying things you don't even believe in to try to win an argument. EK's AC in this case is 21, 26 with Shield. What is "surpassing [my] AC on a regular basis" at level 7? Bring a CR7 monster that can reach that with 11 or less, and I'll start listening again. For future reference, a Marilith (CR14) needs a 17.

- EDIT: mgs probably did better math than me.

[mgshamster]

It's not bad but again fighting your way through a dungeon you might have several fights in a day but traveling between places you may have 2-3 or maybe even just 1 but against a powerful creature so which is better is entirely circumstantial but a paladin can always put out more power but an EK will only occasionally have the opportunity to outlast him.

If you're only doing 2-3 combats per day, they should be a lot longer than 3 rounds.

3 rounds is the average for 6-8 combats. Let's assume the number of rounds are linear. That would make 24 rounds per day. With 2 combats per day, you should have 12 rounds per combat. So the EK is still matching half way through the first combat.

If you're giving 2-3 encounters per day that only last 2 rounds each, then 1) you're not running 5e how it's designed, and 2) your paladin is wasting his resources on too easy of an encounter. He shouldn't be smiting at all in that situation.

If he is, then teach him a lesson and throw in a very hard encounter after he used up all his smites.

[Daltry]

- I don't know, let's do the math for 13 rounds of combat, shall we? We should be able to agree that with 3 fights, with an average of 4.3 rounds, you could pull those off in any adventuring day.

Paladin
39.5x3=118.5
17x10=170
Total: 288.5

EK
21x13=273

Paladin is a bit ahead. Oh wait, I conveniently forgot Action Surge, which would give EK an extra 17. So now we have EK 290, Paladin 288.5. How nice! If you stick a short rest in between any of those fights, EK is also getting +12.5 HP and +17 damage again. You could try to argument in favor of less rounds, but still the EK would be getting very close and taking way less damage. Should I also add two targets that moved after that Booming Blade, so I get another 4d8?

- About the AC, you're saying things you don't even believe in to try to win an argument. EK's AC in this case is 21, 26 with Shield. What is "surpassing [my] AC on a regular basis" at level 7? Bring a CR7 monster that can reach that with 11 or less, and I'll start listening again. For future reference, a Marilith (CR14) needs a 17.

- EDIT: mgs probably did better math than me.

First I never say anything I don't believe just to win an argument. On average an EK will have a 16 AC at the lower levels of the game so +5 is only a 22 and a regular basis doesn't necessarily mean 50% of the time it means that you wouldn't be able to use your shield every time to take that much less damage.

Your numbers conveniently leave out the repeated damage of searing smite or ensnaring strike and the knocking prone in thunderous smite but then use the (sometimes) added damage of GFB and BB. You also only want to discuss level 7 but you have levels 3-6 to go through first where the field is extremely lopsided and at higher levels how the paladins spells level up a lot more and how the EK in many circumstances where his limited magic either doesn't apply or doesn't add up enough becomes a fighter with out an archetype.

[Daltry]

If you're only doing 2-3 combats per day, they should be a lot longer than 3 rounds.

3 rounds is the average for 6-8 combats. Let's assume the number of rounds are linear. That would make 24 rounds per day. With 2 combats per day, you should have 12 rounds per combat. So the EK is still matching half way through the first combat.

If you're giving 2-3 encounters per day that only last 2 rounds each, then 1) you're not running 5e how it's designed, and 2) your paladin is wasting his resources on too easy of an encounter. He shouldn't be smiting at all in that situation.

If he is, then teach him a lesson and throw in a very hard encounter after he used up all his smites.

the rounds are determined by specific opponents and the number of people in your party and the strategy you use to fight them. I don't think I've ever seen a combat last 12 rounds. In your previous post you said it would take 12 rounds to match but now you're saying he would match halfway through at the 6th round.

[Specter]

First I never say anything I don't believe just to win an argument. On average an EK will have a 16 AC at the lower levels of the game so +5 is only a 22 and a regular basis doesn't necessarily mean 50% of the time it means that you wouldn't be able to use your shield every time to take that much less damage.

Your numbers conveniently leave out the repeated damage of searing smite or ensnaring strike and the knocking prone in thunderous smite but then use the (sometimes) added damage of GFB and BB. You also only want to discuss level 7 but you have levels 3-6 to go through first where the field is extremely lopsided and at higher levels how the paladins spells level up a lot more and how the EK in many circumstances where his limited magic either doesn't apply or doesn't add up enough becomes a fighter with out an archetype.

Even a level 1 fighter with chain mail, a shield and Defense has 19AC. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. And you still didn't deliver any examples of creatures. Math has been double-checked, and it takes less time than I thought to equalize damage between both of them. I'm not even considering BB or GFB's secondary damage.

Your premise was not bought. Nothing needs fixing. Just deal with it. Mature assimilation of experience brings learning.

[Daltry]

Even a level 1 fighter with chain mail, a shield and Defense has 19AC. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. And you still didn't deliver any examples of creatures. Math has been double-checked, and it takes less time than I thought to equalize damage between both of them. I'm not even considering BB or GFB's secondary damage.
.


Actually you absolutely did use the extra damage in your last post.

And your assumption that everyone would chose sword and board and defense over a 2 handed weapon and a better fighting style to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about is ridiculous. The base level for this class is 16.

[mgshamster]

In your previous post you said it would take 12 rounds to match but now you're saying he would match halfway through at the 6th round.

Two attacks per round. 12 attacks = 6 rounds.

[Slipperychicken]

Eldritch Knight is the most powerful and popular fighter subclass by far. That doesn't need fixing.

I do think that War Magic could use a tweak, but I agree with you generally. EKs are the strongest fighter subclass in my opinion.

Personally I think battlemasters are the ones that could use a buff. They get an absolutely pitiful number of manuever uses considering how often they'll be making basic attacks in combat and how unreliable the saving throw effects are. They'd probably be just fine if the extra damage dice were taken out and they could use any known maneuver (without the damage die) for free once per round, with the possible exception of precision attack which should still cost a die. Also "Know your Enemy" should trigger after a single round observing a creature in combat or out.

[Specter]

Actually you absolutely did use the extra damage in your last post.

And your assumption that everyone would chose sword and board and defense over a 2 handed weapon and a better fighting style to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about is ridiculous. The base level for this class is 16.

When I say "Should I also add two targets that moved after that Booming Blade, so I get another 4d8?", I meant that I didn't even need to do that to prove that EK deals damage just as respectable as the Paladin.

It's not an assumption, it's an example, nice words don't take you anywhere if you misuse them. You can trade the sword-and-board for whatever you want, but you'd be doing the same to the Paladin too, and in both cases EK would have +5 AC. Actually, by all means let's do that: now I use my extra fighter to grab Great Weapon Master instead of War Caster. Done and done.

16AC is a "base" for great weapon users at level 1: as soon as you grab splint, it's 17, and as soon as you grab full plate, it's 18. Any level 7 martial can have a full plate under standard wealth, unless you're running a game where the crafting of full plates is a taboo punishable by death, in which case I suggest not being a DM.

Protip for life: nobody likes a nitpicker, especially one that's been mathematically proven wrong. Now get to those examples.

[Byke]

My 2 cents EK can put out some of the best sustained DPS in the game with little to no buffing. But it's done via Charisma/Warlock, which is counter intuitive and just feels wrong.

7 EK + 2 Warlock (Hex is best) - With Hex and Hex Curse up.
A Full round of attack looks - 2d10 (EB) + 2d6 (HEX) + 10dam (AB) + 8 (Prof) + 1d10 (Xbow) + 1d6 Hex + 3 dex + 4 Prof)

Average dam: 11 + 7 +10 + 8 + 5.5 + 3,5 + 3 + 4 = 52 dam

continue adding Rogue, EB and sneak dam continue to scale

From level 1-7 it play fine as a front line tank or archer, it comes online at 9th and after 11th some of the best sustained dam around.

Stats Start Variant Human
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 8
Wiz 8
Char 16 ASI + 2 + 2 = 20

Levels: Feats
Human X-bow Expert
Fighter 1 Ranged attack + 2, Second Wind
Fighter 2 Action surge (1)
Fighter 3 EK WP bond 2/1st Cantrip GFB/Chill Touch 1st - Absorb Element, Shield, Find Familiar
Fighter 4 3/1st - Expeditious Retreat - + ASI Char
Fighter 5 2 attacks
Fighter 6 ASI + Char
Fighter 7 War Magic - 4/ 1st& 2/ 2nd spells - Darkness
Hex 1 Hex Warrior + Hex Curse 2/1st level spells - Hex/ Eldritch blast
Hex 2 Agonizing Blast + Devil's Sight
Rogue 1
Rogue 2 Cunning action
Rogue 3 -11 2d6 sneak

[Daltry]

When I say "Should I also add two targets that moved after that Booming Blade, so I get another 4d8?", I meant that I didn't even need to do that to prove that EK deals damage just as respectable as the Paladin.

Except he doesn't the paladins extra damage is dealt round after round until a saving throw is made and it levels up much higher. None of that is factored into the numbers you claim are mathematically proving me wrong.


It's not an assumption, it's an example, nice words don't take you anywhere if you misuse them. You can trade the sword-and-board for whatever you want, but you'd be doing the same to the Paladin too, and in both cases EK would have +5 AC. Actually, by all means let's do that: now I use my extra fighter to grab Great Weapon Master instead of War Caster. Done and done.

The feats are irrelevant. Both characters could take them. Incidentally the paladin could take magic initiate and take shield.


16AC is a "base" for great weapon users at level 1: as soon as you grab splint, it's 17, and as soon as you grab full plate, it's 18. Any level 7 martial can have a full plate under standard wealth, unless you're running a game where the crafting of full plates is a taboo punishable by death, in which case I suggest not being a DM.

The base character is what I started a discussion about. yes there are ways to get higher ac just like there are ways to improve every stat but again you're assuming that everyone will make the same choices as you but often they don't. there are many other things their character could prefer to spend his money on. But lets say you have a shield and picked defense and bought the plate and did everything else you can think of to max out your ac. Do you do the role playing part of the game? A knight doesn't sleep in full plate, or even leather armor. What happens when your party gets attacked in the middle of the night. Fights over by the time you don your armor. What if your character gets captured and stripped of his armor, shield, weapons and anything else boosting his ac. He can summon his weapon to his hand but not his armor. What if you're on a boat and don't want to be wearing plate mail if it capsizes, or maybe you just don't expect to be attacked there so you remove it. What if you're on a mission that requires stealth and you remove it. I could go on all day naming for instances, you can say that hardly ever happens but when you count up all the possibilities there are hundreds of opportunities for it to happen and if it never happens to you maybe you're the one who's not playing the game right.


Protip for life: nobody likes a nitpicker, especially one that's been mathematically proven wrong. Now get to those examples.

Pro tip? there's nothing pro about the several vialled (and lame) insults you've tried to make or the snotty attitude. Most adults find it possible and even easy to discuss things with out acting like this even when they completely disagree with each other. You haven't proven anything, mathematically or otherwise. All your numbers are skewed towards the way you want things to be or they rely on things that aren't guaranteed.

[Daltry]

My 2 cents EK can put out some of the best sustained DPS in the game with little to no buffing. But it's done via Charisma/Warlock, which is counter intuitive and just feels wrong.

7 EK + 2 Warlock (Hex is best) - With Hex and Hex Curse up.
A Full round of attack looks - 2d10 (EB) + 2d6 (HEX) + 10dam (AB) + 8 (Prof) + 1d10 (Xbow) + 1d6 Hex + 3 dex + 4 Prof)

Average dam: 11 + 7 +10 + 8 + 5.5 + 3,5 + 3 + 4 = 52 dam

continue adding Rogue, EB and sneak dam continue to scale

From level 1-7 it play fine as a front line tank or archer, it comes online at 9th and after 11th some of the best sustained dam around.

Stats Start Variant Human
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 8
Wiz 8
Char 16 ASI + 2 + 2 = 20

Levels: Feats
Human X-bow Expert
Fighter 1 Ranged attack + 2, Second Wind
Fighter 2 Action surge (1)
Fighter 3 EK WP bond 2/1st Cantrip GFB/Chill Touch 1st - Absorb Element, Shield, Find Familiar
Fighter 4 3/1st - Expeditious Retreat - + ASI Char
Fighter 5 2 attacks
Fighter 6 ASI + Char
Fighter 7 War Magic - 4/ 1st& 2/ 2nd spells - Darkness
Hex 1 Hex Warrior + Hex Curse 2/1st level spells - Hex/ Eldritch blast
Hex 2 Agonizing Blast + Devil's Sight
Rogue 1
Rogue 2 Cunning action
Rogue 3 -11 2d6 sneak

Thanks. I was basically talking about pure EK's in this thread though. But I do definitely agree that multi classing some EK into a hybrid character could be awesome.

[Daltry]

Two attacks per round. 12 attacks = 6 rounds.

Your 12 attacks theory was based on the numbers used for is full turns not each individual attack.

[Specter]

Except he doesn't the paladins extra damage is dealt round after round until a saving throw is made and it levels up much higher. None of that is factored into the numbers you claim are mathematically proving me wrong.

The feats are irrelevant. Both characters could take them. Incidentally the paladin could take magic initiate and take shield.

The base character is what I started a discussion about. yes there are ways to get higher ac just like there are ways to improve every stat but again you're assuming that everyone will make the same choices as you but often they don't. there are many other things their character could prefer to spend his money on. But lets say you have a shield and picked defense and bought the plate and did everything else you can think of to max out your ac. Do you do the role playing part of the game? A knight doesn't sleep in full plate, or even leather armor. What happens when your party gets attacked in the middle of the night. Fights over by the time you don your armor. What if your character gets captured and stripped of his armor, shield, weapons and anything else boosting his ac. He can summon his weapon to his hand but not his armor. What if you're on a boat and don't want to be wearing plate mail if it capsizes, or maybe you just don't expect to be attacked there so you remove it. What if you're on a mission that requires stealth and you remove it. I could go on all day naming for instances, you can say that hardly ever happens but when you count up all the possibilities there are hundreds of opportunities for it to happen and if it never happens to you maybe you're the one who's not playing the game right.

Pro tip? there's nothing pro about the several vialled (and lame) insults you've tried to make or the snotty attitude. Most adults find it possible and even easy to discuss things with out acting like this even when they completely disagree with each other. You haven't proven anything, mathematically or otherwise. All your numbers are skewed towards the way you want things to be or they rely on things that aren't guaranteed.

- Searing Smite will deal 1d6 on attack, plus 1d6 if the target fails their save (note the if). Maybe more after the second turn, but that's failing two saves (doubtful). So you need one failed save to get 2d6. If you think that's better than the plain 2d8 from divine smite, then the problem is you playing badly and not doing math right.

- If the Paladin takes Magic Initiate, he can cast it once a day. If you think that's a solid choice, add it in your numbers, but it isn't.

- That's curious, I thought we were talking about a typical adventuring day, where you're in 'dungeons and castles'. Never mind the fact that the only situation that you mentioned that actually is hampered by heavy armor is stealth, but here we are comparing two characters generically, if one is without armor, the other will be without armor as well. The difference is I have 15 AC for five turns, while he has 10. Good? Good.

- It has been proven. If you get 54 damage bursting and I get 4.5 forever, I need that times 12 to get there, and anything over 12 is actually more damage for me. And also, I'm taking way less damage, for reasons you've already read and I won't calories retyping. I can't put it better than this.

Now, if you want further replies/any discussion to happen (and you won't convince anyone, but some people are neurotic and enjoy it), you will describe a standard adventuring day, where the EK and the Paladin are the same in terms of equipment and state of mind, and run your simulation without disregarding math. Otherwise, I'm done, and you're free to stay on the denial stage.

[mgshamster]

Your 12 attacks theory was based on the numbers used for is full turns not each individual attack.

Ah, yes. You are correct. I had missed that from the beginning. I was just looking at the differences.

12 rounds it is.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Personally, I think the simplest fix for the Eldritch Knight is to convert over some more of the lower-level Swordmage spells from 4e. There's a reason why Greenflame Blade and its ilk are all but mandatory for EKs, and that's because they're about the only spells we have, other than the Paladin's Smites, that key off of melee attacks rather than being intended for use at a distance. It's okay if the EK is supposed to be "martial dabbling in magic", but still, like the Bladesinger and Blade-Warlock, thematically, it's orientated towards close to medium range combat, and we don't have that many spells intended for that.

If we had more of the Swordmage's spells in 5e, the EK would have more versatility and would be a lot better. Same goes for the Bladesinger.

[Daltry]

- Searing Smite will deal 1d6 on attack, plus 1d6 if the target fails their save (note the if). Maybe more after the second turn, but that's failing two saves (doubtful). So you need one failed save to get 2d6. If you think that's better than the plain 2d8 from divine smite, then the problem is you playing badly and not doing math right.

First the initial damage is based on a weapon attack and the searing smite is added to a hit automatically. It's a first level spell and it's up to the player to choose which spell to use against which enemy. When used against foes with lower stats failing a save can be quite common. I've seen both searing smite and ensnaring strike to successfully deal damage for 4 or more rounds in a row by using only one spell slot and leaving the paladin free to fight another creature. The paladin gets this before an EK gets any magic. And the initial damage levels up at higher levels it could be cast so that the initial damage is a 4 or 5d6 and still deal damage round after round against some foes since the paladins stats have risen by that time as well. So divine smite deals more damage initially and possibly more over all if the foe makes his save against searing smite (note the if) but it won't leave him free to fight another foe. Ultimately it's a choice that the paladin has and the EK doesn't


- If the Paladin takes Magic Initiate, he can cast it once a day. If you think that's a solid choice, add it in your numbers, but it isn't.

In a fight where the shield provides enough ac against a strike one use could be the difference between winning and losing or even living and dying. It's also not the only thing he would get from the choice so it's up to each individual and their stagey for the game to determine which feats to pick but again for this thread lets stick to the basic characters.


That's curious, I thought we were talking about a typical adventuring day, where you're in 'dungeons and castles'.

That is curious since I started this thread and it's about the game of d and d in general with all it's variables.


Never mind the fact that the only situation that you mentioned that actually is hampered by heavy armor is stealth, but here we are comparing two characters generically, if one is without armor, the other will be without armor as well. The difference is I have 15 AC for five turns, while he has 10. Good? Good.

This is laughable at best. How does having your armor taken from you not effect your AC? How does taking it off to sleep or make sure you don't drowned not effect your AC? The donning and doffing armor chart is in the book because it's expected to be used in realistic role play but apparently you think your characters armor never comes off. The difference is you now only have a 15 ac and almost anything can beat your armor class at almost any level.


It has been proven. If you get 54 damage bursting and I get 4.5 forever, I need that times 12 to get there, and anything over 12 is actually more damage for me. And also, I'm taking way less damage, for reasons you've already read and I won't calories retyping. I can't put it better than this.

It's already been pointed out that your math didn't include everything. You've already admitted to making a mistake in your math in another post and it wasn't the only one but I'm not hear to pick on people's math. It's already been pointed out that you may not even last for 12 rounds if you can't beat your foe so having more power up front can be far more useful. Finally I can't be mathematically proven wrong in a fantasy adventure game when math isn't the only deciding factor.


Now, if you want further replies/any discussion to happen (and you won't convince anyone, but some people are neurotic and enjoy it),

There you go again. you can't seem to make a post with out making some lame insult or snotty remark can you? If I wanted to play this game all I'd have to do is point out how many times you've replied in this thread.



you will describe a standard adventuring day, where the EK and the Paladin are the same in terms of equipment and state of mind, and run your simulation without disregarding math. Otherwise, I'm done, and you're free to stay on the denial stage.

Here is part of your problem. There is no such thing as a standard adventuring day. Everyone should be vastly different and I feel sorry for any players stuck with a boring DM that doesn't make that true.

[Daltry]

Personally, I think the simplest fix for the Eldritch Knight is to convert over some more of the lower-level Swordmage spells from 4e. There's a reason why Greenflame Blade and its ilk are all but mandatory for EKs, and that's because they're about the only spells we have, other than the Paladin's Smites, that key off of melee attacks rather than being intended for use at a distance. It's okay if the EK is supposed to be "martial dabbling in magic", but still, like the Bladesinger and Blade-Warlock, thematically, it's orientated towards close to medium range combat, and we don't have that many spells intended for that.

If we had more of the Swordmage's spells in 5e, the EK would have more versatility and would be a lot better. Same goes for the Bladesinger.

there are some good spells there and they would be interesting and helpful for an EK but I still want something that can be used regularly and level you up at level 5 rather than being given the choice of 2 relatively equal options depending on the circumstance. Nothing anyone has said has made me feel any different.

What's interesting is that I started playing 4e originally but only a few times and I don't think I ever played this type of character. I'm just now realizing that most of the SCAG cantrips are from there and not something new.

[dejarnjc]

Eldritch Knight is just fine, as several others have already pointed out. EK has more reliable sustained damage than the Paladin. Paladin is clearly better at nova (which is also important), EK is tankier than paladin, both have differ spell lists, Paladin gets more slots but EK gets cantrips. All in all they're pretty damn balanced. OP's suggested changes would be totally broken.

My only suggested change to the EK would be to allow casting somatic spells with sword and board in hand as part of their archetype feature. As its, war caster is practically a feat tax. Other classes have it worse though so I'm not complaining really.

[Vaz]

The Paladin gets more swingy, but it also deaps the more important damage in the more important fights. However, it also relies on its Smites for that damage, so cannot use that resource to cast utility spells with ease, lest it reduces that impact later on. It's kinda why I love Paladin 5/Warlock 9, and later Warlock 11 for the 3rd 5th level smite, and the ability to Eldritch Smite as well, so you can throw +12d8 damage onto something, or even potentially +24d8 as a result of the Crit from a Hexblades increased range and possibly advantage if you've managed to prone it.

In response to that, the EK gets to Hold Person.

[CaptainSarathai]

The Paladin gets more swingy, but it also deaps the more important damage in the more important fights. However, it also relies on its Smites for that damage, so cannot use that resource to cast utility spells with ease, lest it reduces that impact later on. It's kinda why I love Paladin 5/Warlock 9, and later Warlock 11 for the 3rd 5th level smite, and the ability to Eldritch Smite as well, so you can throw +12d8 damage onto something, or even potentially +24d8 as a result of the Crit from a Hexblades increased range and possibly advantage if you've managed to prone it.

In response to that, the EK gets to Hold Person.

Aaaaaaand... that's why I don't allow Hexblades to Multiclass at my tables, and require players give me a d**n good reason for me to allow them at all.

[Vaz]

That's 14th level and something any paladin Blade lock multiclass can do, and even then, only 1/short rest. Hexblade gives a 5% increased chance to crit only.

If that why you don't allow Hexblades to multiclass, i suggest upping your game as a DM.

[djreynolds]

Well hex was a good choice as it adds 1d6 necrotic damage to all your strikes.

What are you stats? And are you 16th level?

If you have a high enough intelligence, I recommend some levels of wizard or if you have say a 13 in wisdom then cleric is also nice.

What feats have you chosen? I see war caster and magic initiate( and good choices there)

Normally if I roll up a fighter I leave room to multiclass, so 13 in dex, wis, chr or int can benefit you a lot.

With a 13 in chr, warlock is right there and you could've saved that ASI/feat for magic initiate for something else, and got hex and EB. And bard and sorcerer can add lots of extra perks

War cleric gives you access to divine favor, only 1d4 but radiant damage and no bonus action needed to change targets like hunter's mark or hex. Bless is also a great concentration spell to have going.

Dex allows you to grab some rogue for expertise and cunning action

And int is nice as wizard will grant you lots of utility spells to cast

Now you have a familiar, and familiars can grant advantage and makes using GWM/SS easier to land.

And if you have a 13 in str and charisma.... paladin is right there and now you can smite with those spell slots. Paladin has lots of great spells. Even 2 levels of paladin turns you into a smiting machine

So my advice is to seriously consider multiclassing

[Ninja-Radish]

Ah the EK. I remember when I first read the PHB and saw the subclass "Eldritch Knight" I was so excited. Then I actually read it and was soooooo disappointed.

[Daltry]

Well hex was a good choice as it adds 1d6 necrotic damage to all your strikes.

What are you stats? And are you 16th level?

If you have a high enough intelligence, I recommend some levels of wizard or if you have say a 13 in wisdom then cleric is also nice.

What feats have you chosen? I see war caster and magic initiate( and good choices there)

Normally if I roll up a fighter I leave room to multiclass, so 13 in dex, wis, chr or int can benefit you a lot.

With a 13 in chr, warlock is right there and you could've saved that ASI/feat for magic initiate for something else, and got hex and EB. And bard and sorcerer can add lots of extra perks

War cleric gives you access to divine favor, only 1d4 but radiant damage and no bonus action needed to change targets like hunter's mark or hex. Bless is also a great concentration spell to have going.

Dex allows you to grab some rogue for expertise and cunning action

And int is nice as wizard will grant you lots of utility spells to cast

Now you have a familiar, and familiars can grant advantage and makes using GWM/SS easier to land.

And if you have a 13 in str and charisma.... paladin is right there and now you can smite with those spell slots. Paladin has lots of great spells. Even 2 levels of paladin turns you into a smiting machine

So my advice is to seriously consider multiclassing


Yes I like the Hex spell it plays well with my idea of what an EK should do. I was torn between that and hellish rebuke for it's reaction properties as well as briefly thinking about guiding bolt from the clerics list but I didn't like their cantrip options as much.

I rolled really well for this game getting 12-16-14-14-12-15. Not a single low number to start. I went 16 - strength, 15 -intel, 14-dex, 14-con, 12-cha, 12-wis. Then my character got +2 to strength and +1 to Cha.

Didn't need much improvement for the lower levels so I took magic initiate, elemental adept-fire, mobile, and great weapon master. Finally bumped my strength to 20 at 14.

We just leveled to 16 last week and won't be playing this week so I have another week to decide on this level. I'm leaning towards bumping int and cha by +1 each but was also considering elemental adept again against a different type of attack.

We're doing a home brewed campaign so the final big bad is unknown. Part of the game is to find out who's behind everything. If I go with splitting my asi this time then I might know who were going against at 19 so I might know whether or not elemental adept will help and if so which type to take. or if not then bump int to 18 or dex or con to 16.

Multiclassing is cool but I rarely do it. Planning to finish this as a pure EK although some of your ideas are cool I might play with them next time.

[Daltry]

So nobody seems to like the idea of making the cantrips a bonus action. I disagree that it's OP but whatever. I think if anything add that part of the feature at a higher level when you're typically going up against tougher foes and need more damage.

In any case the bigger problem with GFB to me is the 5 ft. range to hit a second target. I get it's a melee cantrip and don't want to change that but I never see two foes that close in combat. Do any of you see that frequently, or at all? having studied martial arts my whole life I know that you don't want to be within 5 ft. of an ally when you or he is swinging a sword, let alone a glaive, great ax or halberd. I think that if a dm puts weapon wielding foes that close he doesn't really know what he's doing. Any fighter with a brain cell or two would space out a bit more and any kind of soldier or otherwise trained fighter would try to flank or surround their enemy. Of course you still have magic uses and different types of creatures where it could happen but it just doesn't ever seem to. I think 10 feet would be acceptable but 15 would be perfect. It keeps it focus on close range fighting but makes it more useful. I was really surprised no one comment on that part.

[djreynolds]

Yes I like the Hex spell it plays well with my idea of what an EK should do. I was torn between that and hellish rebuke for it's reaction properties as well as briefly thinking about guiding bolt from the clerics list but I didn't like their cantrip options as much.

I rolled really well for this game getting 12-16-14-14-12-15. Not a single low number to start. I went 16 - strength, 15 -intel, 14-dex, 14-con, 12-cha, 12-wis. Then my character got +2 to strength and +1 to Cha.

Didn't need much improvement for the lower levels so I took magic initiate, elemental adept-fire, mobile, and great weapon master. Finally bumped my strength to 20 at 14.

We just leveled to 16 last week and won't be playing this week so I have another week to decide on this level. I'm leaning towards bumping int and cha by +1 each but was also considering elemental adept again against a different type of attack.

We're doing a home brewed campaign so the final big bad is unknown. Part of the game is to find out who's behind everything. If I go with splitting my asi this time then I might know who were going against at 19 so I might know whether or not elemental adept will help and if so which type to take. or if not then bump int to 18 or dex or con to 16.

Multiclassing is cool but I rarely do it. Planning to finish this as a pure EK although some of your ideas are cool I might play with them next time.

You know what is cool with eldritch knight... 2 levels of barbarian for reckless attack.

Crazy, but you don't rage. You use reckless attack and then spam the shield spell to make up for the enemy having advantage to hit you. You can use reckless attack in plate and still cast spells.... just can't use rage

The character sounds awesome. So go pure.

I might be inclined to take resilient wisdom, we fought Grazzt at 20th level and all I did was grovel at feet.
Lucky is good, but +6 to your wisdom save is nice to have. And mage slayer could also be good to pick up

And I would use find familiar everyday, even if you DM kills it, you can still get some advantage will an owl's flyby.

Great character.

[Saiga]

I do agree that Bonus Action cantrip is too on-the-nose but I think changing War Magic to letting you swap one of your Extra Attacks per turn for a Cantrip would be nice and wouldn't be a feature that gets worse when you gain additional extra attacks as a fighter.

Limit it to a Wizard cantrip and you don't have to worry about Eldritch Blast cheese either.

[JNAProductions]

Let's say a Cantrip is worth 70% of your attack routine, on average.

That means that, with existing War Magic, you get, at level 5, 120% effectiveness. (One attack (50%) plus a Cantrip.) This shrinks to 103% at level 11, which I can see being an issue, but at this point, you have a lot more slots to play with, so maybe not? Whereas allowing a Cantrip as a bonus action puts you at 170% always. That's way too much.

Replacing a single attack with a cantrip (I would still have it cost a bonus action) starts working at level 5, for the same 120%, and bumps up to 136% at level 11. Seems reasonable to me-that being said, EK doesn't really need fixing.

[Vaz]

You know what is cool with eldritch knight... 2 levels of barbarian for reckless attack.

Crazy, but you don't rage. You use reckless attack and then spam the shield spell to make up for the enemy having advantage to hit you. You can use reckless attack in plate and still cast spells.... just can't use rage

The character sounds awesome. So go pure.

I might be inclined to take resilient wisdom, we fought Grazzt at 20th level and all I did was grovel at feet.
Lucky is good, but +6 to your wisdom save is nice to have. And mage slayer could also be good to pick up

And I would use find familiar everyday, even if you DM kills it, you can still get some advantage will an owl's flyby.

Great character.

Delay casting spells until 2 levels later? No 4th level spells, and no 3rd level spell until 15th level? I'd rather take Sorcerer 5 for the ability to Quicken Hold Person twice and pick up Favoured Soul (+2d4
to a save 1/short rest + Cure Wound) Shadow (Con save to not die) or Stone Sorcerer (Free Spells). You can use downtime to stack your spell slots into Sorcery Points and then burn those sorcery points on more low level spell slots which you can then use to get more Quicken's during the rest of the adventuring day. You also have an effective spellcaster level of 7 at 11th level, rather than 4, and get access to Hold Person from earlier in the game.

[djreynolds]

Delay casting spells until 2 levels later? No 4th level spells, and no 3rd level spell until 15th level? I'd rather take Sorcerer 5 for the ability to Quicken Hold Person twice and pick up Favoured Soul (+2d4
to a save 1/short rest + Cure Wound) Shadow (Con save to not die) or Stone Sorcerer (Free Spells). You can use downtime to stack your spell slots into Sorcery Points and then burn those sorcery points on more low level spell slots which you can then use to get more Quicken's during the rest of the adventuring day. You also have an effective spellcaster level of 7 at 11th level, rather than 4, and get access to Hold Person from earlier in the game.

This is a good build to.

I really like sorcerer/EK

But I like EK with reckless attack and maybe some warlock for hex or paladin for smite and divine favor. I end up using my spell slots for shield, maybe blur or PFGE and go to town with 3 attacks and GWM with advantage.

I used to use find familiar but our DM kills them off quickly

And yes Hold Person is awesome, especially when you pair it with sorcerer... very nasty

EK doesn't need a fix because hold person is so good and its concentration so you can't have another buff going or hex or divine favor or hunter's mark anyhow.

I think EK, sorcerer, and 2-3 of paladin makes a nice combo

[xanderh]

I performed some calculations because I was curious. From level 7 onward, casting booming blade and not getting the extra damage when the enemy moves puts you within 5 points of damage (from an all-attack routine) at all times, with the way it works right now. The benefit here is that the enemy either stays close to you, or he takes more damage than normal if he moves. Both are benefits.
If the enemy moves, however, you do significantly more damage than you would have if you just used the standard attack routine.
For example, at level 7, the standard attacks do about 20 damage if they both hit. Booming blade deals 24 if the enemy stands still, and 33 if they move.
At level 11, attacks do 29 damage, booming blade does 28 if they don't move and 43 if they do. At 17, booming blade deals 33 if they don't move, and 52 if they do. At level 20, the standard attacks do 38 damage.
These numbers assume no dueling style, but just add +2 at 11 and +4 at 20 to the standard attacks, and the difference between the numbers are correct.

If you give booming blade and greenflame blade as bonus actions, the eldritch knight has twice the sustained dpr of the other Fighters from level 7 onwards. In fact, the sustained dpr of the eldritch knight is about the same as what a battle master can do with trip attack and similar maneuvers, which are bursting tools.

[Mongobear]

I just wish they had something like this in their abilities. this is the capstone of the PF EK Prestige Class, it really fits the "I fight and cast spells" flavor of the archetype


At 10th level, whenever an eldritch knight successfully confirms a critical hit, he can cast a spell as a swift action. The spell must include the target of the attack as one of its targets or in its area of effect. Casting this spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The caster must still meet all of the spell’s components and must roll for arcane spell failure if necessary.

[xanderh]

I just wish they had something like this in their abilities. this is the capstone of the PF EK Prestige Class, it really fits the "I fight and cast spells" flavor of the archetype


At 10th level, whenever an eldritch knight successfully confirms a critical hit, he can cast a spell as a swift action. The spell must include the target of the attack as one of its targets or in its area of effect. Casting this spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The caster must still meet all of the spell’s components and must roll for arcane spell failure if necessary.

That is much more reasonable than the original suggestion. You can even port it quite easily. Maybe give it out at the same time as War Magic and restrict it to cantrips, but upgrade it when War Magic improves.

Since it only activates on a crit, the added damage is effectively 5 % of the damage a cantrip/spell deals. Far from game-breaking, doesn't really change the consistent damage output, and it feels great when you get to activate it.

[djreynolds]

My only real issue with EK is the extra attack is great to have, but seems really needless with war magic or unless you have like hex/hunter's mark/ divine favor and any fighter can grab hex from magic initiate

It just seems after war magic... its too easy to walk away.

Improved war magic is 18th level, just to cast perhaps hold person and get in 1 attack

[Shinimas]

My only real issue with EK is the extra attack is great to have, but seems really needless with war magic or unless you have like hex/hunter's mark/ divine favor and any fighter can grab hex from magic initiate

It just seems after war magic... its too easy to walk away.

Improved war magic is 18th level, just to cast perhaps hold person and get in 1 attack

Well, that's my own "only issued" as well. A real shame that this issue is basically that the main class's mechanic is worthless.

[GreyBlack]

What the other fighter archetypes gain in greater power, the Eldritch Knight gains in versatility. Sure, your raw DPR might be better as champion or you can mete out additional effects and superiority dice with the Battlemaster, but the EK gains something no other archetype gains: a concentration slot. This single ability reduces the caster's work load and can provide a huge versatility in what they can do at any given level. You can increase someone's AC, deal a random type of elemental damage, or shore up the party in some other way, all while dishing out fairly significant DPR solely because of the class you're playing.

In my opinion, that's easily on par if not better than your average fighter.

[Potato_Priest]

Eldritch Knight is the most powerful and popular fighter subclass by far. That doesn't need fixing.

Wait, really? Can you share your source on fighter subclass popularity?