Metaphysical spitballing: Quantifying XP as a fundamental power in the multiverse

[Jowgen]

Disclaimer: Pardon the weird title, couldn't think of a clearer way to word it.

What we know:

According to the DMG "Experience points are a measure of accomplishment. They represent training and learning by doing, and they illustrate the fact that, in fantasy, the more experienced a character is, the more power he or she possesses".

According to the PHB "Experience points (XP) measure how much your character has learned and how much he or she has grown in personal power. Your character earns XP by defeating monsters and other opponents"

The crafting of items requires the expenditure of "personal energy in the form of XP", just as certain spells/effects are fuelled by the willing expenditure of XP (e.g. Wish).

Certain items/spells/effects can store XP for a specific purpose (i.e talisman of transference, thought bottle) or just drain/destory it (e.g. Negative Levels, Lichbriar), which can kill a creature if it gets to 0.

The Theory

XP is not an abstract concept, but a fundamental energy in the cosmos akin to belief, both of which are closely related to Souls, all three of which are related to the divine (i.e. deities and the outer planes). Together they make up the metaphysical foundation of the multiverse.

Everything that has a soul can grow (mainly through adversity) and thus accumulate XP. Everything that has a soul can offer its devotion to something it thinks greater than itself. To put it differently, XP is the power that a soul gains from facing reality, while belief is the power the divines/planes gain from souls surrending to them. In this, just as reality looses nothing by being faced, souls loose nothing by offering/surrendering their belief.

This progresion fits with the rule of 3 (i.e. Reality > Souls > Divinity) and is an inherent/inevitable fact of existence. Simply by living each day, creatures with Souls can not help but accumulate new experiences and thus grow (however fast/slowly), just as they can't help their inherent urge to try and find meaning by believing in something (note: thus, Messeeks (https://youtu.be/QrQZg-gNC_k?t=18)don't have souls).

XP, Souls and Belief are all little bundles of energy, but they're not equal. The soul is the most basic and thus most tangible of the three; in that it can be captured, destoryed or otherwise manipulated in a wide range of ways. XP is slightly less tangible than the soul. It can be destroyed; but you can not steal an unwilling creature's XP for yourself (does not function seperately from its owner). Belief is the most intangible, indestructable and unstoppable upon generation going straight from the souls that generated it to its recipient (usually a deity, fueling its divine energy), with no if's or but's.

Another interesting distinction is that XP can only be expended to act upon reality, while Belief can only act upon the divine (planes included). You can spend exp to imbue power into items/spells, but belief benefits the divine only. Vlaakith the Lich Queen spent an immeasurably high ammount of XP to try and steal a dead deity's divine spark via lots of Wish spells, illustrating just how vast that divide is.

The soul, interestingly, can be used for both; by being broken down for Dark Craft XP or divine energy (i.e. through torture in Baator or by becoming one with a plane/deity); although the breakdown/dissolution nets less gains than either XP or belief generated in life.

Bringing it all together

The deities complete the cycle. They can use their divine energy; garnered from belief and souls; to profoundly act upon reality (and the mortals/souls within). In fact, they have no choice but to do so; as a deity needs worshippers to sustain itself, so all funnels back into the mortal realm. In a strange way, belief is to deities what XP is to mortals. XP inherently strengthens mortals just as belief does to deities, and both stagnate and eventually whither away if starved. Interestingly, this suggests that the Believers of the Source might've been onto something in their thought that deities simply represent another evolutionary step. But that goes beyond the scope here.

Bottom-line is: XP is not just a game abstraction, but one of the two fundamental energies generated by a creature's soul throughout its existence, alongside belief. XP strenghtens the souls' owner, while belief strengthens the souls' chosen patron, who in turn works to aid its worshippers. This is the basic mechanic via which the multiverse keeps itself going.

Thoughts/criticisms?

[SangoProduction]

I enjoy these bits of myth. I mean, they fundamentally don't change anything, not even adjusting how one would think about it, but it's just cool to read these things.

[ATHATH]

That looks fine/okay.

Of course, you could always just take the KOTOR 2 approach. :smallamused:

[Schattenbach]

One could also simply describe XP as part of one's existence (which they obviously are), no need to define it as some kind of "energy", as not everything (has to be some kind of "energy" to allow one to exert power or disort existence. Though one could certainly use someting that "isn't energy" to "produce energy" and/or to abuse that something so much that it eventually collapses from all that abuse/strain.

As far as belief is concerned, one alternate way to see it is deities using belief "to expand their existence" (i.e. besides using their physical form and soul to anchor and concentrate their existence, as it is possibly the case for most existences, I guess?) by leaving things of themselves behind within other beings (i.e. the belief - not all that different memories, attachments or various forms of strong feelings associated with something - in them ... and as those beings don't reject the deity but recognize the deity's existence and might also also worship it, there shouldn't be any reason for that not to work) and thus end up growing larger in scale as existence and thus more powerful in so far that a larger scale existence could possibly disort things more easily (if they try to do things beyond their capabilities, this could still possibly put to much strain on their existence, damaging it and weakening the deity as result).

[ExLibrisMortis]

I knew it would be a good read when I saw the name and title.

Generally, I'm all for a proper IC/OOC restriction between experience and XP. That said, with this kind of fluff, I would not mind playing without.

[unseenmage]

I like it except for the insistence that souls and xp are inextricably linked since there are some soulless creatures with class levels which can gain and expend xp.

Would be nice if the theory worked with Pathfinder too and since every monster in PF is potentially a playable creature those without souls coukd gain and lose xp. Though xp isnt really spent as a resource in PF like it is in 3.x.

[thorr-kan]

Interesting.

Twigs onto something that's I've been percolating for awhile. "Medieval stasis." Why?

Because crafting requires putting a little bit of yourself into something. An assembly line requires putting a little bit of yourself into A LOT of somethings.

With your idea, you're literally harvesting souls for production.

It's late; I can't articulate the thought better that this.

[Jowgen]

I knew it would be a good read when I saw the name and title.

Oh stop it you :smallredface:


I like it except for the insistence that souls and xp are inextricably linked since there are some soulless creatures with class levels which can gain and expend xp.

Would be nice if the theory worked with Pathfinder too and since every monster in PF is potentially a playable creature those without souls coukd gain and lose xp. Though xp isnt really spent as a resource in PF like it is in 3.x.

There are things in pathfinder without souls that can gain exp? If so, then yeah, this don't work in PF.


Interesting.

Twigs onto something that's I've been percolating for awhile. "Medieval stasis." Why?

Because crafting requires putting a little bit of yourself into something. An assembly line requires putting a little bit of yourself into A LOT of somethings.

With your idea, you're literally harvesting souls for production.

It's late; I can't articulate the thought better that this.

The nature of XP as a limited resource certainly qualifies as one of the things that keeps magic-tech from advancing past a certain point. Also, most mortals in a given civilization won't face XP-rich life or death adversity on a regular basis, hence why higher-level characters are so rare. Arguably, this means that Lolth has the right idea for her people, as their constant internal conflict keeps them not only sharp but gets more of them to advance in HD.

As for limiting purely scientific advancements, the God's themselves are likely responsible to some degree, as it's in their best interest for magic (chiefly divine magic) to remain the pinnacle of power for mortals.

[unseenmage]

...

There are things in pathfinder without souls that can gain exp? If so, then yeah, this don't work in PF.

...

If memory serves there are things in 3.x without souls that can gain xp.
Vampires and other undead with LAs. Constructs with LAs. Undead and Constructs that advance by class levels would theoretically gain and possibly even expend xp.

[Martin Greywolf]

Do I spy with my little eye just a little bit of KOTOR 2 and Dark Souls?

Anyhow, there is a way to get around the non-soul entities having XP, and that is to go Egyptian. What you do is split what makes a person a person into several individual components - ancient Egypt had two "souls" and the body, slightly more modern concept is id, ego and superego and so on.

Only, in your world, these are real things, and while the soul can work as you want it to work, what XP is is literally your experience. Not necessarily memories, you keep those, but more like lessons learned, or to put it another way: XP represent how past experience changed you. Which is why you literally get worse at your job when you loose them - you still remember that cool sword move, but you loose the ability to do it with proper tempo and under pressure.

This way, your XP becomes a part of who you are, separate but equal to both body and soul. How that ties into the afterlife, well, it really depends on you, but there is no reason why soul and XP couldn't be linked more intrinsically than body and soul.

[Jowgen]

If memory serves there are things in 3.x without souls that can gain xp.
Vampires and other undead with LAs. Constructs with LAs. Undead and Constructs that advance by class levels would theoretically gain and possibly even expend xp.

To my knowledge, all intelligent undead have souls. Warforged also have souls (at least Breland argued that based on their ressurectability), so it would stand to reason that the handful of constructs capable of class-level advancing have somehow gotten souls as well.


Do I spy with my little eye just a little bit of KOTOR 2 and Dark Souls?

Never played them.


Anyhow, there is a way to get around the non-soul entities having XP, and that is to go Egyptian. What you do is split what makes a person a person into several individual components - ancient Egypt had two "souls" and the body, slightly more modern concept is id, ego and superego and so on.

Only, in your world, these are real things, and while the soul can work as you want it to work, what XP is is literally your experience. Not necessarily memories, you keep those, but more like lessons learned, or to put it another way: XP represent how past experience changed you. Which is why you literally get worse at your job when you loose them - you still remember that cool sword move, but you loose the ability to do it with proper tempo and under pressure.

This way, your XP becomes a part of who you are, separate but equal to both body and soul. How that ties into the afterlife, well, it really depends on you, but there is no reason why soul and XP couldn't be linked more intrinsically than body and soul.

In 2e lore (e.g. On Hallowed Ground) souls have Memory Cores, which are stripped from the soul when they pass on to become petitioners, and then just float about the Astral. Arguably, the memory core could be seen as the vessel or equivalent of the Egygptian second soul.

As for treating XP as lessons learned or somesuch is that, for most characters, monster-slaying/death-defying experience shouldn't be able to make them better at what they do. A Wizard should just become a better wizard with more reading and arcane pratice; and there is no reason that simply casting fireballs at critters from a distance would improve his spells or his durability (i.e. HD) for that matter.

Treating XP as an inherent power generated by a soul overcoming adversity makes it a universal power currency, which creatures of any race or class can then invest towards strengthening whatever abilties suit them (or expend it as payment for x).

[unseenmage]

To my knowledge, all intelligent undead have souls. Warforged also have souls (at least Breland argued that based on their ressurectability), so it would stand to reason that the handful of constructs capable of class-level advancing have somehow gotten souls as well.

...
Warforged were always the exception and not the rule, as evidenced by their special subtype.

Other playable undead and constructs cannot be resurrected due in fact to the lack of a soul.
IIRC there's even a special spell just for resurrecting undead, though to my knowledge constructs never got one of their own.

In my own investigations of the subject I found some concensus that even Incarnate Construct does not necessarily convey a soul even if it may convey the living condition.
The Greater Humanoid Essence spell was initially why I was looking into ensouling Constructs. There are other spells I wanted to use with it that require souls.
Not to mention the massive potential imbalance that could result from making Constructs or Undead en masse that are all both possessing of souls and devoted to their creator's deity.

A thought occurs, would removing the soul prevent gaining xp?
Would transforming a normal human into a normally non-playable, non-souled undead or construct suddenly prevent them from gaining xp?

[Uckleverry]

If XP is a real, quantifiable part of the cosmos, wouldn't its effects been discovered and understood by the people/creatures at large? Wouldn't that lead to the discovery of levels/HD as something concrete in the cosmos? And CR, since you could over time piece out the amount of XP a particular creature gives to a creature of a particular level. And then level adjustment would be discovered.

Thus, people in the world could refer to themselves as 'level 2 commoner' or 'level 5 fighter and level 1 ranger'. Oh, you're a level 2 character? If I killed you, I'd gain a level, and I could finally take that level in prestige class X. And take a cross-class rank in Decipher Script.

Not my cup of tea.

[Gildedragon]

XP can be generated from nothing though (thought bottle reuses, pain/pleasure farms, supernatural wishes), also magic items store XP, it isn't spent (hence the retain essence ability working)...
Also not all gods feed on belief. Iirc only Faerun ones need belief, and overdeities don't even want believers

[Endarire]

I likey!

"Imbue," not "embue."

[ExLibrisMortis]

Other playable undead and constructs cannot be resurrected due in fact to the lack of a soul.
Undead can definitely be resurrected. Regular resurrection spells turn you back to life, revive undead returns you to undeath (and works on zombies and skeletons).

In fact, you could argue that the whole difference between undead and constructs is based on the presence or absence of the original creature's soul. A zombie has a soul, trapped in between life and death, whereas a flesh golem has no soul - there is dead meat and a soul in the afterlife.


Not to mention the massive potential imbalance that could result from making Constructs or Undead en masse that are all both possessing of souls and devoted to their creator's deity.
Sounds like the angels/fiends axis just got company from the construct/undead axis. I want this campaign setting, stat.

[Andezzar]

If XP is a real, quantifiable part of the cosmos, wouldn't its effects been discovered and understood by the people/creatures at large? Wouldn't that lead to the discovery of levels/HD as something concrete in the cosmos? And CR, since you could over time piece out the amount of XP a particular creature gives to a creature of a particular level. And then level adjustment would be discovered.

Thus, people in the world could refer to themselves as 'level 2 commoner' or 'level 5 fighter and level 1 ranger'. Oh, you're a level 2 character? If I killed you, I'd gain a level, and I could finally take that level in prestige class X. And take a cross-class rank in Decipher Script.

Not my cup of tea.The information is already available to characters. A scientifically minded wizard could indeed start quantifying that stuff.

Whether or not that is known to the public or even a single wizard is up to the DM, whether people actually go around advertising their worth XP wise as well.

[Quertus]

In 2e, at least, constructs were animated by an elemental spirit. I suspect elemental spirits are still enslaved inside constructs, as evidenced by the clay golem: "When a clay golem enters combat, there is a cumulative 1% chance each round that its elemental spirit breaks free and the golem goes berserk."


Arguably, this means that Lolth has the right idea for her people, as their constant internal conflict keeps them not only sharp but gets more of them to advance in HD.

As for limiting purely scientific advancements, the God's themselves are likely responsible to some degree, as it's in their best interest for magic (chiefly divine magic) to remain the pinnacle of power for mortals.

Yup & yup.


If memory serves there are things in 3.x without souls that can gain xp.
Vampires and other undead with LAs. Constructs with LAs. Undead and Constructs that advance by class levels would theoretically gain and possibly even expend xp.

Citation? Can you True Resurrect the original while the vampire yet exists? I was of the opinion that the undead form (vampire, whatever), held the soul captive, preventing such resurrection.

Otherwise, I've just found a fun new way to duplicate my characters.


To my knowledge, all intelligent undead have souls. Warforged also have souls (at least Breland argued that based on their ressurectability), so it would stand to reason that the handful of constructs capable of class-level advancing have somehow gotten souls as well.

In 2e lore (e.g. On Hallowed Ground) souls have Memory Cores, which are stripped from the soul when they pass on to become petitioners, and then just float about the Astral. Arguably, the memory core could be seen as the vessel or equivalent of the Egygptian second soul.

As for treating XP as lessons learned or somesuch is that, for most characters, monster-slaying/death-defying experience shouldn't be able to make them better at what they do. A Wizard should just become a better wizard with more reading and arcane pratice; and there is no reason that simply casting fireballs at critters from a distance would improve his spells or his durability (i.e. HD) for that matter.

Treating XP as an inherent power generated by a soul overcoming adversity makes it a universal power currency, which creatures of any race or class can then invest towards strengthening whatever abilties suit them (or expend it as payment for x).

That's my belief.


Other playable undead and constructs cannot be resurrected due in fact to the lack of a soul.
IIRC there's even a special spell just for resurrecting undead, though to my knowledge constructs never got one of their own.

In my own investigations of the subject I found some concensus that even Incarnate Construct does not necessarily convey a soul even if it may convey the living condition.
The Greater Humanoid Essence spell was initially why I was looking into ensouling Constructs. There are other spells I wanted to use with it that require souls.
Not to mention the massive potential imbalance that could result from making Constructs or Undead en masse that are all both possessing of souls and devoted to their creator's deity.

Citation?

And I don't think enslaved elemental spirits are likely to give devotion to a deity of their enslaver. I believe that their devotion will remain with the elemental lords.


A thought occurs, would removing the soul prevent gaining xp?
Would transforming a normal human into a normally non-playable, non-souled undead or construct suddenly prevent them from gaining xp?

Citation? Is there evidence that there really are such things as non-souled beings?

Still, a spell which removes the soul might well tender one incapable of growth, much like a Simulacrum.


XP can be generated from nothing though (thought bottle reuses, pain/pleasure farms, supernatural wishes), also magic items store XP, it isn't spent (hence the retain essence ability working)...

That's troubling.


Also not all gods feed on belief. Iirc only Faerun ones need belief, and overdeities don't even want believers

I was under the impression all deities required faith. Like mortals, over deities are a completely different thing entirely, and follow different rules.


Undead can definitely be resurrected. Regular resurrection spells turn you back to life, revive undead returns you to undeath (and works on zombies and skeletons).

In fact, you could argue that the whole difference between undead and constructs is based on the presence or absence of the original creature's soul. A zombie has a soul, trapped in between life and death, whereas a flesh golem has no soul - there is dead meat and a soul in the afterlife.

Sounds like the angels/fiends axis just got company from the construct/undead axis. I want this campaign setting, stat.

The flesh golem is animated by an elemental spirit. But afaik, the spirits if the corpses have long departed.


The information is already available to characters. A scientifically minded wizard could indeed start quantifying that stuff.

Whether or not that is known to the public or even a single wizard is up to the DM, whether people actually go around advertising their worth XP wise as well.

Queue Quertus, the scientifically-minded wizard. :smallwink:

[unseenmage]

...

Sounds like the angels/fiends axis just got company from the construct/undead axis. I want this campaign setting, stat.
Me too. Alternatively just build a single sliver of Thinaun Steel with a soul trapped in it into all of your Constructs.


Before I continue I want to apologize as I will rarely be capable of providing citations. I realize this is frustrating, trust me I do. It is just something my brain has a lot of trouble with. We've discovered that I'm great with concept retention but rubbish with fact retention. Makes learning easy but testing a real pain.
Again, my apologies.
I will do my best to explain myself as well as I am able and to provide sources/citations when and if I can remember.


In 2e, at least, constructs were animated by an elemental spirit. I suspect elemental spirits are still enslaved inside constructs, as evidenced by the clay golem: "When a clay golem enters combat, there is a cumulative 1% chance each round that its elemental spirit breaks free and the golem goes berserk."
Kind of, some Constructs are still animated by elemental spirits (namely Golems) while others are animated by raw magic (Animated Objects, Awakened Sand from Sandstorm) or even the spirits of the dead (can't remember one off the top of my head but I know I've tinkered with them before).


Citation? Can you True Resurrect the original while the vampire yet exists? I was of the opinion that the undead form (vampire, whatever), held the soul captive, preventing such resurrection.

Otherwise, I've just found a fun new way to duplicate my characters.
As ExLibrisMortis mentioned undead can be resurrected, but it results in the destruction of the undead as the trapped soul returns to life. It is my understanding that the souls are denied access to the afterlife but not present within the undead itself. Their animating force and even their sentience are composed entirely of negative energy IIRC.

One does wonder though, are minor undead like Tomb Motes all trapping a soul apiece? How about conjured undead as those created from nothing by a magic item? What of creating bones with True Creation and animating those with negative energy; do they trap a soul as well?


Citation?

And I don't think enslaved elemental spirits are likely to give devotion to a deity of their enslaver. I believe that their devotion will remain with the elemental lords.
The Sacred Guardian template from Bestiary of Krynn makes a construct devoted to a deity.
Additionally, the Greater Humanoid Essence spell allows one to make a Construct into a Humanoid for the duration, removing its immunity to mind affecting. Using high enough Diplomancy one can get them to the Fanatic diplomacy attitude found in the Epic Level Handbook (explicitly achievable by non-epic characters). Add to this the fun tidbit that it just takes two sermons with one Diplomacy check each to convert someone to your religion, found in Power of Faerun, and viola devoted religious Construct followers.

Also, only Eberron has true elemental-like elemental spirits bound within their constructs. To my knowledge the only interaction we get with the ones bound within standard golems is that Berserk special quality.



Citation? Is there evidence that there really are such things as non-souled beings?

Still, a spell which removes the soul might well tender one incapable of growth, much like a Simulacrum.
Animated Objects + Permanency + Awaken Construct.
It's always been my understanding that having a mind does not equate to having a soul. Otherwise one removes the delightful opportunity for the PCs to ever vehemently rail against the unliving evil genius BBEG calling it a 'Souless monster!'.


Edit: Another niggle, Savage Species nominally provides guidelines for playing nearly ANY creature. That in mind there are likely non-souled playable things, at least potentially.

Edit Again: Ah! Intelligent Magic Items are made with xp and have Intelligence. Have they souls?

Also, if one wished one could continuously summon a spellcaster with Craft Construct (IIRC there are at least two, one casts as a 12th level wizard, the other a cleric; no clue what their feats are but swapping out Craft Construct would seem feasable). Summons being the farthest thing from real creatures to my mind. That such a summon could, theoretically and with MANY summonings create a magic item is odd to say the least.
Do the summoned creatures have souls that they are imbuing into item creation?

[Gildedragon]

I was under the impression all deities required faith. Like mortals, over deities are a completely different thing entirely, and follow different rules.


alas that is not the case. Overdeity status is just a matter of attaining enough divine ranks (30 iirc)
as to how to gain Divine ranks... Another god can give them to one, but no other explicit way is mentioned in Deities and Demigods as far as I can remember (AFB)

[Jowgen]

XP can be generated from nothing though (thought bottle reuses, pain/pleasure farms, supernatural wishes), also magic items store XP, it isn't spent (hence the retain essence ability working)...

The cheesiness of thoughtbottles aside; I don't think the existence of XP farming is a problem in itself. If one were to be able to generate XP without the invovlement of souled creatures (either as XP farm lifestock or the operator of some other exploit); then we'd have a problem


I likey!

"Imbue," not "embue."

Yay, and also fixed.


Me too. Alternatively just build a single sliver of Thinaun Steel with a soul trapped in it into all of your Constructs.

[...]

Kind of, some Constructs are still animated by elemental spirits (namely Golems) while others are animated by raw magic (Animated Objects, Awakened Sand from Sandstorm) or even the spirits of the dead (can't remember one off the top of my head but I know I've tinkered with them before).


As ExLibrisMortis mentioned undead can be resurrected, but it results in the destruction of the undead as the trapped soul returns to life. It is my understanding that the souls are denied access to the afterlife but not present within the undead itself. Their animating force and even their sentience are composed entirely of negative energy IIRC.

One does wonder though, are minor undead like Tomb Motes all trapping a soul apiece? How about conjured undead as those created from nothing by a magic item? What of creating bones with True Creation and animating those with negative energy; do they trap a soul as well?


The Sacred Guardian template from Bestiary of Krynn makes a construct devoted to a deity.
Additionally, the Greater Humanoid Essence spell allows one to make a Construct into a Humanoid for the duration, removing its immunity to mind affecting. Using high enough Diplomancy one can get them to the Fanatic diplomacy attitude found in the Epic Level Handbook (explicitly achievable by non-epic characters). Add to this the fun tidbit that it just takes two sermons with one Diplomacy check each to convert someone to your religion, found in Power of Faerun, and viola devoted religious Construct followers.

Also, only Eberron has true elemental-like elemental spirits bound within their constructs. To my knowledge the only interaction we get with the ones bound within standard golems is that Berserk special quality.

Animated Objects + Permanency + Awaken Construct.
It's always been my understanding that having a mind does not equate to having a soul. Otherwise one removes the delightful opportunity for the PCs to ever vehemently rail against the unliving evil genius BBEG calling it a 'Souless monster!'.


Edit: Another niggle, Savage Species nominally provides guidelines for playing nearly ANY creature. That in mind there are likely non-souled playable things, at least potentially.

Edit Again: Ah! Intelligent Magic Items are made with xp and have Intelligence. Have they souls?

Also, if one wished one could continuously summon a spellcaster with Craft Construct (IIRC there are at least two, one casts as a 12th level wizard, the other a cleric; no clue what their feats are but swapping out Craft Construct would seem feasable). Summons being the farthest thing from real creatures to my mind. That such a summon could, theoretically and with MANY summonings create a magic item is odd to say the least.
Do the summoned creatures have souls that they are imbuing into item creation?

All interesting questions.

We do know that souls come in different grades (e.g. Fiends will pay more for the souls of more advanced mortals, Animal Animals have lesser/minor souls that some D&D faiths say just get reincarnated. The "elemental spirit" that moves the average construct likely falls into the same lesser soul category.

Or it might just be a matter of the vessel. A soul might have the inherent ability to generate XP regardless of its grade; but it's body might just not be suited to letting it do so. An inherently enslaved (e.g. most constructs) or just not sufficiently intelligent creature just might not be able to go through the whole facing-adversity process, because it lacks the physical ability to comprehend adversity or somesuch.

So, by awakening an animal/construct/etc.; you upgrade the hardware so that the software can execute XP-gain.exe (which in turn makes it vulernable to hacking via echantments). Or you might just instill a soul. We know from the Create Lantern Archon spell that magic can just right-out create living souled creatures. No reason other magic can't give fresh souls to things that didn't have any before.

Side note, In terms of intelligent items, I believe there is actually a method in some dragon mag (might have been a feat or PrC ability) that lets you use a captured soul to impart its personality/soul into an intelligent item you create (usually to make it loyal).


alas that is not the case. Overdeity status is just a matter of attaining enough divine ranks (30 iirc)
as to how to gain Divine ranks... Another god can give them to one, but no other explicit way is mentioned in Deities and Demigods as far as I can remember (AFB)

Based on what I know from On Hallow Ground and Afro's threads, Overdeities are a whole different bag. They basically just act as the watchdogs of their crystal spheres in regards to divine matters; with 0 interest in worshippers/mortals and even less invovlement on the planes. They don't have domains, portfolios; or really anything typical of a deity (other than the aweseome power level). If anything, they're closer to the Lady of Pain in nature than to a run of the mill deity.

[Uckleverry]

The information is already available to characters. A scientifically minded wizard could indeed start quantifying that stuff.

Whether or not that is known to the public or even a single wizard is up to the DM, whether people actually go around advertising their worth XP wise as well.

A wizard? In most cases, we'd be talking about a world whose recorded history dates back thousands if not tens of thousands of years, with advanced civilizations practicing magic and ultra-smart creatures far exceeding us humans studying the fabric of reality. Logically, this stuff should've been discovered ages and ages ago, and thus it should be readily obvious to everyone. Assuming XP is a quantifiable element of the cosmos of course.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have a homebrew setting that souls are a major important feature of reality. The idea was a young universe with Good and Evil just having finished their first big war. Good created Elves and Dwarves and assorted good creatures and Evil created Orcs and Goblins and assorted evil creatures. The war broke the world badly enough that it isn't solid any more, rather floating islands linked by portals and airships.

Anywho, one of the major points of the setting was the concept of free will. Without a soul you can not change who you are. A soul is required for free will. Free will is the ability to decide for yourself who you are. After the war, as part of the peace deal, half of the forces of Good and forces of Evil all got souls. Humans sprang into existence all with souls in the end of the war (being the first beings WITH souls), and any being born of human heritage (or from a ensouled parent) has a soul.

The mechanics of this was simple. If you lacked a soul you could not gain EXP in any fashion. Making magic items expends the soul and while a soulless being can make magic items it permanently weakens them. The selecting of class levels and allocation of skill points and feats existed as the manifestation of a soul's inherent ability to choose what it wanted and expressing that free will manifest into the universe.

The only other way to gain HD and class levels was divine intervention as was done in the first war, though that has been banned by the peace accord. The divines and despoiled are forbidden from molding super-soldiers any more and all beings in the middle lands (the islands functioning as a DMZ between Good and Evil) would be free to chose their own destinies. (though soulless orcs and goblins still raid, soulless elves and dwarves still hold battlelines long since abandoned, unable to be anything other than they are they follow destinies long past all wisdom, for what is wisdom without the ability to chose a wiser path. Such cruelty to make a being with a mind to comprehend it's folly but no means to avoid it.)

[Telok]

On knowledge and science:
We've had geniuses studying the world and how it works for ten thousand years. Only once the idea of open-source knowledge with a strong emphasis on reproducability and testability took off did we really get anywhere. The concepts we think of as science have only been in wide enough use to get results for about 400 years. D&D magic has excellent reasons not to share information, true names, soul farming, instant death, immortality based on keeping a secret, things that really are worse than death, the list goes on and on.

So while I'm sure that spells like Bob's Improved Futon Summoning may be shared, things like discovering a rule of magic that allows you to strip spellcasting ability from someone in six seconds using a fourth level spell slot and a pickled egg will not be widely shared.

[Uckleverry]

It's difficult to compare our world's knowledge and science to that of a D&D 3.5 world as the latter has immortal and nigh-immortal beings smarter than any human has ever been, and these beings have existed for tens or hundreds of thousands of years. Even among just human-like creatures we have things like elves who've had advanced civilizations dating back several thousand years, and they've been aided by their literal deities and other such beings (fey and so on).

We equate our world's history and knowledge and practices with those of a D&D 3.5 world since it's always easier to assume things are the same as our experiences -- the more differences, the more mental work it requires to keep things understandable and concrete. But the idea of this thread is to take the rules and elements of the 3.5 system to their logical conclusion, and then you have to consider the implications of the various aspects of the rules and how they impact the fictional cosmos at large.