Tweaking balance for a heist game

[n00b17]

I'm looking at running a low level heist-based campaign, and as usual I'm worried about what the tier 1s can do. Some spells clearly need banning so that there's a reason to use the skill system at all (eg Invisibility, glibness). Are there any other spells or abilities I should look out for that could easily break this kind of campaign?

[Serafina]

Instead of banning them, consider what spells you can counteract instead.
A good chunk of the appeal from heist-movies comes from bypassing all the security features. Those are usually high-tech, in this case they'll just have to be magic.

Invisibility can be bypassed in a bunch of ways.
Magic that sees through invisibility, or otherwise counteracts it - starting with the low-level Invisibillity Alarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/invisibility-alarm/). Also, aura-detecting spells of all sorts can alert people to invisbility creatures. But there's also non-magic ways to do it.
A floor where you leave clear footprints counters non-flying invisibility, if the guards carefully watch it. Soft sand works, but so could mud or soft clay.
Invisibility doesn't cover smell. Get some trained guard dogs or other creatures.
Blindsight/Blindsense also work.
A bunch of curtains that make a sound when moved, as well as other sound-based alarms, works too of course.

Glibness can be countered with appropriate procedures.
"Don't let anyone in without papers" isn't bypassed by even the most convincing lie, if the guard is following it.
Deaf guards (or just earplugs) work too - you can't verbally lie to them at all, and even if Glibness applies to sign language - do your characters know any? Remember that the heist is supposed to be possible, so that'd be a cool gap to exploit!
And also, remember that the Bluff-skill can't convince people people of obvious falsehoods - so Glibness + "I'm the owner of this vault" won't work (unlike in 3.5).

Generally, you can counter a lot of problems by just having an item that casts a high-level dispel magic on everyone who enters. That'll dispel Illusions, Glibness, polymorph-effects and so on just fine - though remember not to completely counter everything the PCs can do, otherwise the whole adventure will feel pointless.

Teleportation - well, if in doubt you can always make the area impossible to teleport into, or use Teleport Trap (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleport-trap/). Remember that as a GM, you can just use permanent or long-duration high-level spells - the owner of the vault simply hired someone at some point to do that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Instead of banning them, consider what spells you can counteract instead.
A good chunk of the appeal from heist-movies comes from bypassing all the security features. Those are usually high-tech, in this case they'll just have to be magic.
I'm inclined to agree with this. Especially if you're sticking to lower-level (e6?) characters, you should be fine.

[Psyren]

You don't have to ban anything, just counter it. If the players can defeat the counter, they can use their ability.

For example, an alarm trap with see invisibility will defeat invisibility, but if the rogue can stealth up to it and disable it, the rest of the party can then follow behind under an invisibility sphere. Or the wizard can fill the hallway with fog instead, and nobody needs to be invisible. Use creative challenges with multiple answers like that, and the players should have fun.

Also, Pathfinder has Heist rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/intrigue/#Heists) that you can leverage to get the creative juices flowing.

[n00b17]

Thanks for the suggestions! It's not so much that I'm trying to counter everything they could do so much as I want them to come up with clever solutions beyond just find-the-right-spell-and-cast-it.


The reason I'm banning glibness is that when it exists, there's no reason to invest in bluff. It's a third level spell that matches a 17 level investment in the skill. The spell's broken and I never allow it in any of my games.

I'll definitely take your advice on invisibility alarm, teleport trap, and similar counters though, thank you.

[Psyren]

Thanks for the suggestions! It's not so much that I'm trying to counter everything they could do so much as I want them to come up with clever solutions beyond just find-the-right-spell-and-cast-it.

"Counter" was a poor choice of words, sorry about that. "Challenge" is the more apt term to use here.

Casting the right spell isn't actually a problem, so long as you make sure everyone in the party has something to do. To build on my example, invisibility sphere being the right spell to get everyone down a hallway is fine if you need a fighter to knock the guards out and the rogue to disable the invisibility purge trap first.

[Malroth]

Glibness stacking with the skill ranks is the only reason to invest in bluff and is the only way to counter things like zone of truth

[Psyren]

Glibness stacking with the skill ranks is the only reason to invest in bluff and is the only way to counter things like zone of truth

There's lots of other ways to beat that. SR, immunity, will saves, mind blank, simply not speaking...