Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization

[Gruftzwerg]

Duskblade 13 / Recaster 5 / Bloodstorm Blade 2

The idea to the build was born while I was working on my Hammerdin of Moradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527093-Hammerdin-of-Moradin-a-guide-to-epic-hammer-throwing)build and still inherits some of the fluff that is related to Hammerdin build from the game Diablo (2/3) but ain't restricted to hammers thrown.


1) Duskblade - Dodge, Combat Expertise*, Mobility*
2) Duskblade
3) Duskblade - Empower Spell
4) Duskblade
5) Duskblade
6) Duskblade - Spring Attack
7) Duskblade
8) Duskblade
9) Duskblade - Whirlwind
10) Duskblade
11) Duskblade
12) Duskblade - Maximize Spell
13) Duskblade
14) Recaster
15) Recaster - Martial Study (Steel Wind); Expanded Knowledge (Shivering Touch)
16) Recaster
17) Recaster - Expanded Knowledge (Heroics)
18) Recaster - Martial Stance (Punishing Stance or Absolute Steel)
19) Bloodstorm Blade
20) Bloodstorm Blade
* Feats from Flaws

As a thought-lesson I had the urge to make a build who is focused on the Arcane Channeling ability of the duskblade class.

The most recommend spell (as guides already suggest) seems to be Shivering Touch which we need to get via Recaster (since it ain't a duskblade spell).

To add more awesomeness we add Bloodstorm Blade 2 to get Trow Anything, the Returning ability and Thunderous Throw which lets our ranged attacks count as melee again. If we add Whirlwind Attack on top of it, we have finished the "Shivering Tornado of Death".

And don't forget to empower+maximize via Recaster for maximum fun.
27 23.25 Dex dmg (average 18 + 3d6/2) to everything in range of your Trow Anything + Thunderous Throw + Whirlwind Attack (range increment of 10ft x5 = 50ft range / with Far Shot active up to 100ft!; -2 to hit for each increment above 10ft).

FUN FACT: It gets even more silly when you think about the fact that the "Shivering Tornado of Death" can distinguish between friend or foe thx due to Whirlwind Attack only targeting your opponents in reach! Muhahaha ah ha :smallbiggrin:

The 2nd spell Recaster can add to the list ain't set in stone, but I guess the most useful one would be "Alter Self" imho. Cause I don't think the we need more offensive power in this build I would suggest to go for utility or defense for the 2nd spell and Alter Self fits good even at that high lvls if you don't have any other options (e.g. polymorph form party caster) to get a more favorable combat shape.
Did a lil mistake in the build (Point Blank Shot missing for Bloodstorm Blade). I need to set the 2nd spell from Expanded Knowledge to "Heroics". Before entering Bloodstorm Blade, you need to cast it and give you Point Blank Shot. Once you entered the PrC you don't need to bother anymore with PBS and can use it for Far Shot to double your range (up to 100ft!) or something else you want or just ignore the spell.

As always I hope for some feedback and response^^
Any suggestions for the 2nd spell added via Recaster?

EDIT/UPDATE on epic progression:


> Far Shot
> Point Blank Shot (just needed as prerequisite for..)
> Distant Shot

With "Distant Shot", the build can hit anything it can see/spot without any penalty at all.

"There shall stand no enemy in my sight! Crumble and shiver to death!"

EDIT/UPADTE 2 on magic weapon enchantments:

+ 5 Keen Falcion (or any other weapon with 18-20 crit and crit enchantment on it)

Since Ability damage can crit for double dmg (in our chase 54 46.5 Dex dmg average!), we need a weapon with max crit range and crit enchantment on it.

EDIT/UPDATE 3 due to missing Point Blank Shot prerequisite for Bloodstorm Blade. Used the 2nd Expanded Knowledge Spell to compensate it.

EDIT/UPDATE 4 changed the 2nd Expanded Knowledge Spell again from "Mirror Move" to "Heroics". Lesser problem to enter BSB and more useful later. (e.g double your range with Far Shot)

EDIT/UPDATE 5 rearranged feats. did miss +4BAB requirement for SA and needed to delay it to lvl 6.

[heavyfuel]

Except "Thunderous Throw" doesn't increase your reach, it just let's your ranged attacks count as melee. Ranged attacks don't have "reach", they only have, they have a "ranged increment"

[Gruftzwerg]

Except "Thunderous Throw" doesn't increase your reach, it just let's your ranged attacks count as melee. Ranged attacks don't have "reach", they only have, they have a "ranged increment"

you combine the "Trow Anything" ability with "Thunderous Throw". Now your melee weapon has a range increment of 10ft. and thus you can make use of thunderous throw which allows you to apply Whirlwind Attack.

edit to further clarify:



Beginning at 2nd level, you build up incredible tension as you ready yourself to throw your weapon, which becomes visible around you like heat waves. When you release your weapon, that power rushes out with your weapon. As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties. Attacking into melee, through cover, and so forth incurs the standard penalties. In addition, you can apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage if you wield the thrown weapon with two hands, and you can use Power Attack with your thrown weapon attacks (adding two times the number subtracted from attack rolls as a bonus on damage rolls when throwing a two-handed weapon).

Since the ability calls range penalties, you can still attack at range and aren't forced to attack in melee range.

Further IIRC "reach" ain't a defined keyword/term and just implies how far your weapon can attack. "Reach Weapon" is a defined term, but that is not the case here. "Reach" is only defined by your weapons attack range (in this chase 10ft range increment which results in a max. attack range of 50ft.).

[EndocrineBandit]

Can't you take far shot or something to increase your range?

[Gruftzwerg]

Can't you take far shot or something to increase your range?

no room for more feats sadly. Unless you can get it via magic item or you can save it for epic lvls.

[EndocrineBandit]

That's my bad I thought duskblade gave you sudden quicken. Upon investigation it's a class feature that does something similar.

[Gruftzwerg]

That's my bad I thought duskblade gave you sudden quicken. Upon investigation it's a class feature that does something similar.

Well, at least it gave me some reason to think about epic advancement:

> Far Shot
> Point Blank Shot (just needed as prerequisite for..)
> Distant Shot

With "Distant Shot", the build can hit anything it can see/spot without any penalty at all.

"There shall stand no enemy in my sight! Crumble and shiver to death"

[EndocrineBandit]

Could you use the master throwers palm trick to hurl a large amount of ricochet knives with the iron heart prc?

[Gruftzwerg]

Could you use the master throwers palm trick to hurl a large amount of ricochet knives with the iron heart prc?

Won't work out.
First Arcane Channeling only work on a single weapon. And even if you could overcome that somehow, it still wouldn't work. The palm trick lets you use 2 thrown weapons at once (1 roll, 1 target). Since both weapons charges are coming from the same source/spell, they can't affect a single target more than once (unless noted otherwise.) Duskblades Arcance Channeling also has the same limitation (every target gets only affected once, even if you use multiple attacks/hits in a single round).

[Anthrowhale]

Empower Spell only adds ~5 to the damage. You might consider just getting a rod of metamagic[Empower] instead. More generally, how are you getting the metamagic reduction necessary to use Maximize and Empower?

Edit: Ah, I see it's via Recaster's Sudden Metamagic. You can increase the number of times/day of Maximize Empower Shivering Touch from 2 to 3 via using a rod of Empower Spell, and then you'll have two more instances of Maximize Shivering Touch to use.

[Gruftzwerg]

Empower Spell only adds ~5 to the damage. You might consider just getting a rod of metamagic[Empower] instead. More generally, how are you getting the metamagic reduction necessary to use Maximize and Empower?

The rod would be just optional.
I need 2 metamagic feats to enter Recaster.
And Recaster gives you "Sudden Metamagic" ( classlvl/day times usable), which frees the cost of a limited selection of Metamagic feats (which you need to have the feat for it).

I know that Empower wouldn't be worth it under normal circumstances, but as the situation is given, it's the 2nd best metamagic feat I could find for this build and works out imho.

edit: k, you have given yourself the answer in the meanwhile^^. Yeah, as said, the Rod would be a nice magic item investment for more daily resources.

[EndocrineBandit]

I didn't mean to imply with the arcane channeling. I just think it would be amusing to be able to essentially produce a shredstorm on a round by round basis with daggers or something of the sort. Maybe use something with powerful build or jotunbrud

[Gruftzwerg]

I added a recommend weapon (enchantment):
+ 5 Keen Falcion (or any other weapon with 18-20 crit and crit enchantment on it)

Since Ability damage can crit for double dmg (in our chase 46.5 average Dex dmg!), we need a weapon with max crit range and crit enchantment on it.



I didn't mean to imply with the arcane channeling. I just think it would be amusing to be able to essentially produce a shredstorm on a round by round basis with daggers or something of the sort. Maybe use something with powerful build or jotunbrud

would demand to much progress into Epic lvls or another type of build (with no shivering touch involved..).

[EndocrineBandit]

Correct, I'm thinking a different build. No arcane channeling. Dusk blade actually wouldn't be necessary for what I'm now thinking. Might help, at least provide more options for what you're capable of, but still. Your build kind of inspired me. Hmm.

[Gruftzwerg]

Correct, I'm thinking a different build. No arcane channeling. Dusk blade actually wouldn't be necessary for what I'm now thinking. Might help, at least provide more options for what you're capable of, but still. Your build kind of inspired me. Hmm.

I'm happy if I could inspire you. Work it out and/or make a thread and I'll gladly join you.

Maybe have a look on my other last 2 builds who also make use of Bloodstorm Blade classes features (Hammerdin & ShurikeNado). There could be hidden more food for thoughts for you ;)

[ben-zayb]

Why not just Duskblade 13 / Recaster X / Fast progression PrC Y? Get Blood Wind and go to town

[Gruftzwerg]

Why not just Duskblade 13 / Recaster X / Fast progression PrC Y? Get Blood Wind and go to town

First, I wasn't aware of that spell^^
But on 2nd thought, imho it wouldn't work out.

Blood Wind lets you use your natural weapons/unarmed strike as thrown weapon. Further it allows you to make a melee attack & dmg roll, but that's it. It doesn't allow for special melee attacks, since it is a ranged attack (lets NA/US attacks count as thrown weapon).
You need Thunderous Throw (Bloodstorm Blade 2) to let your ranged attacks count as melee again, to apply melee bonuses & special attacks (in our chase: Whirlwind).

[Kaje]

Won't work out.
First Arcane Channeling only work on a single weapon.
Nope, it affects all your melee attacks that round, regardless of how many weapons you use.

[heavyfuel]

Since the ability calls range penalties, you can still attack at range and aren't forced to attack in melee range.

Further IIRC "reach" ain't a defined keyword/term and just implies how far your weapon can attack. "Reach Weapon" is a defined term, but that is not the case here. "Reach" is only defined by your weapons attack range (in this chase 10ft range increment which results in a max. attack range of 50ft.).

It most certainly is


Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.


When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

I'm aware of no rule that indicates ranged weapons have reach, and no such mention in the Bloodstorm Blade class.

You can still use arcane channelling, whirling attack, enlarge person, and a spiked chain to apply Shivering Touch to everyone in a 20ft radius, but bloodstorm blade does nothing for this combo

[Zanos]

To nitpick maximize and empower don't stack like that. You don't maximize the bonus empower damage. So maximized empowered shivering touch deals 18 + (3d6)/2 dex damage, or 23.25 average. Still enough to drop mostly anything.

[Gruftzwerg]

Nope, it affects all your melee attacks that round, regardless of how many weapons you use.

K, point for you. Had that somehow wrong in my mind. But as said, still wouldn't work out due to forbidden stacking rules.

_____________________________________________

It most certainly is





I'm aware of no rule that indicates ranged weapons have reach, and no such mention in the Bloodstorm Blade class.

You can still use arcane channelling, whirling attack, enlarge person, and a spiked chain to apply Shivering Touch to everyone in a 20ft radius, but bloodstorm blade does nothing for this combo

The rule text you quoted didn't define "reach" at all. It just make use of the word "reach".

IIRC, to define a keyword in 3.5 you have some options:
- Bold written with a colon followed by explaining rule text (sometimes with some fluff text involved). e.g. " reach: ruletext...."
- As title of a paragraph
- As title of table

unless you can lead me to ruletext that clearly defines "reach" as what you assume, I'll stick to the general english definition of "reach". To make the difference clear: Just the usage of the word "reach" in some rule text ain't enough to "define it as keyword by rules".

__________________________________________


To nitpick maximize and empower don't stack like that. You don't maximize the bonus empower damage. So maximized empowered shivering touch deals 18 + (3d6)/2 dex damage, or 23.25 average. Still enough to drop mostly anything.

K, thx for pointing that out. I'll correct the values asap. I barely play with metamagic, especially the combo of empower + maximize is the first time I guess I used it in a build.

[heavyfuel]

The rule text you quoted didn't define "reach" at all. It just make use of the word "reach".

IIRC, to define a keyword in 3.5 you have some options:
- Bold written with a colon followed by explaining rule text (sometimes with some fluff text involved). e.g. " reach: ruletext...."
- As title of a paragraph
- As title of table

unless you can lead me to ruletext that clearly defines "reach" as what you assume, I'll stick to the general english definition of "reach". To make the difference clear: Just the usage of the word "reach" in some rule text ain't enough to "define it as keyword by rules".


This argument goes both ways. Is there rules text that says that definitions must abide to any of these options? (hint, there isn't)

I've presented rules text, aka, text that is in a rule book. You just refuse to see it cuz it goes against the TO build you think works

But sure, there are other examples. Looking at any monster table you'll find this line for "Space/Reach", same goes for the "Big and Little Creatures In Combat" table, which can be found on the SRD. It gives a column for "Reach (Long)".

[Hackulator]

Once you no longer have the feat, you can no longer use any abilities that require the feat as prereqs so I'm not sure how useful your mirror move deal is.

[Gruftzwerg]

This argument goes both ways. Is there rules text that says that definitions must abide to any of these options? (hint, there isn't)

I've presented rules text, aka, text that is in a rule book. You just refuse to see it cuz it goes against the TO build you think works

But sure, there are other examples. Looking at any monster table you'll find this line for "Space/Reach", same goes for the "Big and Little Creatures In Combat" table, which can be found on the SRD. It gives a column for "Reach (Long)".

The rule about definition of keywords is something that follows the base logic behind keywords and not a special d&d rule. Anywhere where you use keywords, you first need to clearly define a keyword (to prevent misinterpretations like in our chase), cause otherwise people would start to be confused about what is a keyword and what not.
And to define a keyword, there needs to be some kind of explanation added to it.

- A title or ability name with it's own paragraph/explanation text would do.
- A table name would do, cause the entire table explains something.

A single column in a table does not work imho, cause just a single value explains nothing.


Once you no longer have the feat, you can no longer use any abilities that require the feat as prereqs so I'm not sure how useful your mirror move deal is.

This is only accepted for feats (that you can't use em as long as you don't fulfill the requirements anymore).

For PrC thats a bit more iffy. Only 2 books actually have this rule for PrC called out, that you loose access to abilities when you loose the requirements (and Bloodstorm Blade is not in those 2 books).
But since the main source for PRC is the DMG, it doesn't become a general rule.
Cause if it would, there are a few PRC that would stop to work, cause at some point those PRC give you something that would prevent you from fulfilling the entry requirements anymore.
In the end, imho it's a broken rule, that should never be applied. And if you play strict RAW, it affects only 2 books of PrC which Bloodstorm Blade doesn't belong into.

[Hackulator]

The rule about definition of keywords is something that follows the base logic behind keywords and not a special d&d rule. Anywhere where you use keywords, you first need to clearly define a keyword (to prevent misinterpretations like in our chase), cause otherwise people would start to be confused about what is a keyword and what not.
And to define a keyword, there needs to be some kind of explanation added to it.

- A title or ability name with it's own paragraph/explanation text would do.
- A table name would do, cause the entire table explains something.

A single column in a table does not work imho, cause just a single value explains nothing.



This is only accepted for feats (that you can't use em as long as you don't fulfill the requirements anymore).

For PrC that a bit more iffy. Only 2 books actually have this rule for PrC called out, that you loose access to abilities when you loose the requirements (and Bloodstorm Blade is not in those 2 books).
But since the main source for PRC is the DMG, it doesn't become a general rule.
Cause if it would, there are a few PRC that would stop to work, cause at some point those PRC give you something that would prevent you from fulfilling the entry requirements anymore.
In the end, imho it's a broken rule, that should never be applied. And if you play strict RAW, it affects only 2 books of PrC which Bloodstorm Blade doesn't belong into.

Sorry, your build just doesn't work, you can try to use your RAWmancy as much as you want, but you don't have the prereqs, you can't use the powers. The level of arguments you have to make to even try to make your build legal should tip you off.

[Gruftzwerg]

Sorry, your build just doesn't work, you can try to use your RAWmancy as much as you want, but you don't have the prereqs, you can't use the powers. The level of arguments you have to make to even try to make your build legal should tip you off.

> read the Errata Rule about "Primary Sources"

> see that DMG is the Primary Source for PrC and that other books can only trump these rules in their own special niche (The rule is "Specific trumps general", not "Specific becomes general")

> look up where to find the rule you are talking about and see that it doesn't affect Bloodstorm Blade due to Primary Source rule

pls check the rules :smallsmile:

edit:
Look up Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm): You need to be a non-dragon race to enter it. At lvl 10 you get the Half-Dragon Template which turns you into a dragon.
If the rule you're talking about would be a general rule, Dragon Disciple would stop working once he hits lvl 10 of the prc.

[Gullintanni]

Sorry, your build just doesn't work, you can try to use your RAWmancy as much as you want, but you don't have the prereqs, you can't use the powers. The level of arguments you have to make to even try to make your build legal should tip you off.

I can't speak to the reach issue, but it's true that except for two specific PRC manuals, once you qualify for a PRC, you no longer need to meet the prerequisites to use its abilities. PRCs from Complete Warrior and only one other book are subject to that restriction. I'm AFB though and I can't remember the other book that mentions it.

[heavyfuel]

The rule about definition of keywords is something that follows the base logic behind keywords and not a special d&d rule. Anywhere where you use keywords, you first need to clearly define a keyword (to prevent misinterpretations like in our chase), cause otherwise people would start to be confused about what is a keyword and what not.
And to define a keyword, there needs to be some kind of explanation added to it.

- A title or ability name with it's own paragraph/explanation text would do.
- A table name would do, cause the entire table explains something.

A single column in a table does not work imho, cause just a single value explains nothing.


You talk a big talk about logic, but you're pretty quick to throw it out the window when it goes against your cherished build.

There's no "rule of definition of keywords". Not in d&d nor in any other system. Only in your head. What does exist is text, in a rule book, that says you're wrong. (if it's text talking about rules, in a rule book, it's rules text. Now THAT is logic)

And it's not one column on a single table, I've given you like 4 examples of the word "reach" being used in reference to melee reach. You're yet to give me one of it being used in reference to ranged distance.

[Gruftzwerg]

And it's not one column on a single table, I've given you like 4 examples of the word "reach" being used in reference to melee reach. You're yet to give me one of it being used in reference to ranged distance.

reference != defining a keyword

And since it ain't defined, common sense by english definition applies. You try to read rules where there aren't.

We have rules for "Reach Weapons", "Natural Reach due to Size" and for "Threatened Squares", but no special explanation of "reach" itself (= no keyword).

Further, if we look at the definition of the keyword Reach Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons):

Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Note: Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet.)

emphasis added on the important part.

So, a reach weapon is a melee weapon (checked) which allows it wielder to strike targets that aren't adjacent to him (checked). The other part just talks about "most reach weapons". Everything what defines a reach weapon is there. The build uses a melee weapon which is capable (thx due to classabilities) to attack targets that are not adjacent to him. And this range defines his reach with the weapon.

Sry for Bloodstorm Blade class feature being so cheesy, but that's not my fault. Enabling ranged attacks for melee weapons and than turning the ranged attack into a melee-ish attack back.

[heavyfuel]

reference != defining a keyword

And since it ain't defined, common sense by english definition applies. You try to read rules where there aren't.

We have rules for "Reach Weapons", "Natural Reach due to Size" and for "Threatened Squares", but no special explanation of "reach" itself (= no keyword).

Further, if we look at the definition of the keyword Reach Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons):


emphasis added on the important part.

So, a reach weapon is a melee weapon (checked) which allows it wielder to strike targets that aren't adjacent to him (checked). The other part just talks about "most reach weapons". Everything what defines a reach weapon is there. The build uses a melee weapon which is capable (thx due to classabilities) to attack targets that are not adjacent to him. And this range defines his reach with the weapon.

Sry for Bloodstorm Blade class feature being so cheesy, but that's not my fault. Enabling ranged attacks for melee weapons and than turning the ranged attack into a melee-ish attack back.

All this text and still no evidence that you can use the word "reach" in reference to ranged attacks

[Gruftzwerg]

All this text and still no evidence that you can use the word "reach" in reference to ranged attacks

As long as there is nor "clear" definition (title, prargraph or bold, with explaining rule text behind), I don't need any reference. Cause default English language backs me up.

While you read more into the rules as they are.
As said, "natural reach" (due to size), "reach weapons" and "threatened squares" are defined terms. Just "reach" not.

Again. The rule how keywords are defined are gobal rules that are not sole found in D&D. It's the unspoken law of keywords. Even in laws they works that way (any country where I could read some laws so far). First you "clearly" define a word. Just putting a word into a sentence ain't a clear definition. That would cause the need to read the entire rules and discuss until the end of time what is and what is not a keyword. It's basic logic behind it that is everywhere used where you work with keywords in rules/laws. If you would had more experience in reading laws and rules in general you would know that.
And remember, when we have "no clear rules" for a given situation we fall back to regular English definition and common sense.

Now it's up to you to find either a clear definition or just accept what regular English definition and common sense dictates. Cause you are the one assuming that D&D has rules that suppress general english definition for just "reach" (not reach weapon, nor natural reach or whatsoever).

I have given you a fine detailed answer in my last post. And all you had to say to the arguments was, that you "miss the evidence that you can use the word "reach" in reference to ranged attacks".
As said, I don't need to. Cause unless you can point me to a clear d&d 3.5 definition, we fall back to default English definition and common sense and that covers that perfectly up.

edit: btw, Thunderous Throws duration is limited to "end of your turn" and not "end of turn" the more common used term. Unless they really need to restrict you to "end of your turn" due to game balance reasons, they always use the "end of turn" term, knowing it doesn't make any difference.
But in chase of Thunderous Throw it makes a difference. Cause given how the ability works, you could get AoO and would threaten your entire range increment if it would work until "end of turn". That's the reason why it is especially limited to "end of your turn", to prevent you from getting an insane area of threatened squares.

[Raendyn]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?310471-VoP-doesn-t-suck/page4&p=16275713#post16275713

This link is in my sig for a reason. The thread describes a kiddo trying to prove his build works, despite ppl telling him otherwise. Jade_Tarem told him a story. read it!

like that guy, u came here to abuse your wanna-be mastery of English Language, abuse rules, do some misinterpretation that favors you, and attack everyone that doesnt agree with you, while cunningly(not eve close) avoiding answering their questions and arguements.

Stop it. dont be a troll. be constructive. next time someone corners you with rational arguments on your multi-assumptions upon assumptions that things work your way. just say "assuming my DM agrees with me" and continue.

[Mike Miller]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?310471-VoP-doesn-t-suck/page4&p=16275713#post16275713

This link is in my sig for a reason. The thread describes a kiddo trying to prove his build works, despite ppl telling him otherwise. Jade_Tarem told him a story. read it!

like that guy, u came here to abuse your wanna-be mastery of English Language, abuse rules, do some misinterpretation that favors you, and attack everyone that doesnt agree with you, while cunningly(not eve close) avoiding answering their questions and arguements.

Stop it. dont be a troll. be constructive. next time someone corners you with rational arguments on your multi-assumptions upon assumptions that things work your way. just say "assuming my DM agrees with me" and continue.

...so you necro'd a thread to attack someone?

[Raendyn]

6 months isnt rly necro. he is still "advertising" this build on recent duskblade threads. so Yeah!

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not a single person mentioned he doesn't need Far Shot, he can just get a pair of Gauntlets of Extended Range (MIC)?

I am disappointed in you, forum.

[Darrin]

Not a single person mentioned he doesn't need Far Shot, he can just get a pair of Gauntlets of Extended Range (MIC)?


You'll want to add Helm of the Hunter (9000 GP, MIC) or Horizon Goggles (8000 GP, Complete Mage) for quadruple range. Distance is a real-world value, so standard multiplication applies.

[Mike Miller]

6 months isnt rly necro. he is still "advertising" this build on recent duskblade threads. so Yeah!

Rules of the forum
Thread Necromancy
Bringing a thread back from "the dead." If a thread hasn't been posted in within the last 45 days, don't reply to it. Start a new topic, if you want to discuss the subject (you are welcome to link to the old thread). If you think it would be better to resurrect an old thread, PM a moderator for that subforum and wait for approval. The original poster of a creation in Homebrew (and only that poster) may revive a creation beyond the 45 day threshold without prior Moderator approval.

So it is thread necro. But I appreciate you answering my question, as I figured it would be ignored.

Also, since some people have discussed the actual build again I will add my two cents. I think calling a ranged weapon a melee weapon with reach is stretching the rules too far. Just because the above mentioned abilities allow ranged attacks to count as melee, does not make them reach melee. I like the attempt to use the definition of reach weapon but I don't believe that works in this case.

Interesting build though.

[Mato]

People perform illogical mental hurdles when they can't think of how to do something but want to anyway. He knows it's wrong, he just won't admit it it.

Someone should have just told him that since whirlwind attack is a full-round action with enough sneak attack buffs a hidden drunken master can use maiming strike with a ten thousand foot spiked chain. It out does everything his build can't do and it has enough room to take levels in ur priest and ruby knight vindicator to pick up 9th level spells and maneuvers or something. It's a little cheesy, but at least it knows what an attack is.

On the "necro", the moderators have already made a pass through the board this morning. Raendyn may have had a point. The OP keeps relinking this thread so the discussion and even reedited his post the seventeenth of November (less than 45 days ago) so it hasn't really died out yet, would you rather he derailed someone else's thread replying there or discuss it where it belongs?

[Gruftzwerg]

People perform illogical mental hurdles when they can't think of how to do something but want to anyway. He knows it's wrong, he just won't admit it it.

Someone should have just told him that since whirlwind attack is a full-round action with enough sneak attack buffs a hidden drunken master can use maiming strike with a ten thousand foot spiked chain. It out does everything his build can't do and it has enough room to take levels in ur priest and ruby knight vindicator to pick up 9th level spells and maneuvers or something. It's a little cheesy, but at least it knows what an attack is.

On the "necro", the moderators have already made a pass through the board this morning. Raendyn may have had a point. The OP keeps relinking this thread so the discussion and even reedited his post the seventeenth of November (less than 45 days ago) so it hasn't really died out yet, would you rather he derailed someone else's thread replying there or discuss it where it belongs?

Hi and welcome to discuss my build/cheese/trick here.

So you want to make a point that the build doesn't work, but where is your point? So far you only ranted about me linking my builds. Sure, you intention is a good one (to clear up misunderstandings in the rules), but at least give me a point that I can answer to.

So, why you think it doesn't work?
Do you have found a clear definition of "reach"?
Can you disprove that Thunderous Throw lets the weapon count as range reach weapon "until end of your turn"?

and btw..

Someone should have just told him
"Someone should have just told you" that it's a bad habit and provoking/offending if you don't talk directly to other people. You can talk to me directly, I don't bite ;)

edit: corrected a word. sry it's early in the morning..^^

[Raendyn]

People's signatures do have amassing information sometimes. Mato's for example has a video I found very interesting and inspiring. So, since you try to use the phrase "within reach" the way it suits you, I googled it in the Oxfdord dictionary. The answer is simple:


within (or in) reach

1Inside the distance to which someone can stretch out their hand.

Example sentences

1.1Inside a distance that can be travelled.

‘a 1930s semi within easy reach of the town centre’

More example sentences

1.2Within the capacity of someone to attain something.

‘the arrangement is well within the reach of the average dancer’

So, the main usage is "the distance your hand can stretch out", and that's what every here has been telling you. You claim that since there's no set in stone definition of a codeword "Reach" in a book you can use for Hardcore RAW arguments, any secondary and metaphorical meaning of the phrase. Well guess what, you are the one that needs to find hard prooved definition that backs up your argument, not everybody else that disagrees with you.

The word "Reach", in relation to the game, is a unit's arm's reach for natural attacks, or a weapon's reach, which is a statblock in a table. So till you prove it otherwise, your whirlwind attack - Thunderous Throw combo, will only work on boards you are the DM, or you convinced your DM to let it fly.

What my problem really is with this thread, is the fact that you could have solved all the troubles by doing what Kuulvheysoon has been doing in all his builds in your own sig. He starts by writing the phrase "assuming that X works in N way". Which leads me to believe that this thread here is just an attempt of yours to get this forum-s back up to convince your DM/Friends/yourself that its RAW and legal. and that's why you are trying to support it with all those irrational ruleslawyering that drove half the forumites, who bored reply, mad.

On the bright side, you can become friends with Visigani


visigani, I'm going to tell you a little story, and I want you to remember it forever because it will help you.

My PoliSci professor at college once told us that he didn't like parties. Why, you ask? Well, he wasn't against them in principle, but *he* didn't go to any because the first two questions you get from anyone you meet at a party after college are:

1. Who are you?
2. What do you do/where do you work?

And so he would then tell them that he taught PoliSci at the nearby university. And the response he would invariably get was, "Oh, you're a PoliSci PhD? Well let me get your opinion on something..."

Only, of course, they don't want his opinion on anything. They want to give him their opinion on something and see if he agrees with it. If he does, they go home and tell their friends and family, "Guess who's as smart as a PoliSci PhD?" And if he disagrees, they go home and tell their friends and family, "Guess who's smarter than a PoliSci PhD?"

You didn't open up this thread to start a discussion, you opened it up to start a fight and preemptively declared that anyone disagreeing with you is clearly dumber than you are, because *you* being mistaken, or wrong, or that there could be multiple valid interpretations of a poorly refined splatbook variant rule is apparently not possible in this reality. Yours is not the one true opinion, the one true interpretation, or the one true anything, and statistically there are many people on a board like this who will be smarter than you. This grade-school-quality sarcasm, barrage of ad hominem attacks (among other logical fallacies, including the one where the DM rewrites the rules until what you're getting at is viable), and hyperbolic posturing is not helping your case - if anything, it's antithetical to the purpose of a message board.

[Gruftzwerg]

The word "Reach", in relation to the game, is a unit's arm's reach for natural attacks, or a weapon's reach, which is a statblock in a table.

"a unit's arm's reach" is the definition of "natural reach" and not sole "reach".

"reach" involves your "natural reach" + reach weapon (if you use one) + any other reach bonuses (racial, magical, abilities..).

Further a "reach weapon" is defined as:


Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

the build uses a melee weapon to strike targets up to 50ft away.
Thunderous Throw clearly states that it counts as melee attack and thus all melee options are available.

Sure BSB enables some heavy melee cheese with its TT ability. But I really don't get why some insist that this was never intended at all? ToB was designed to close the gap between melee and casters.
Hey, we talk about the people that designed Planar Shepherd, a prc which can give you a 10:1 time ratio (you do 10 rounds everybody else only 1) compared to everyone else if you build him that way.
But hey, giving melee good stuff was clearly not their intention when they released ToB...
Am I the only one here who clearly sees this as the intended power lvl of BSB?


my intentions: why I did this build:
Just sole because I am a theorycrafter in all kind of games and have fun with optimization. I barely play at that optimization lvl at my game tables, so I don't think I'll ever play it (like all my other builds). If I play the builds (like my clawlock build) it's on a much weaker scale to fit the party power. So don't worry. No ill intentions here.
My builds are just for showcasing what is possible with optimization. The requests for optimized builds in the forum always repeats for the most part and thus, its far more easier to link a build as to copy + pasting the same info over and over. Further in a separate thread for the build, I can go far more into detail compared to as I would in a single reply on a request.

[Mike Miller]

"a unit's arm's reach" is the definition of "natural reach" and not sole "reach".

"reach" involves your "natural reach" + reach weapon (if you use one) + any other reach bonuses (racial, magical, abilities..).

Further a "reach weapon" is defined as:



the build uses a melee weapon to strike targets up to 50ft away.
Thunderous Throw clearly states that it counts as melee attack and thus all melee options are available.

Sure BSB enables some heavy melee cheese with its TT ability. But I really don't get why some insist that this was never intended at all? ToB was designed to close the gap between melee and casters.
Hey, we talk about the people that designed Planar Shepherd, a prc which can give you a 10:1 time ratio (you do 10 rounds everybody else only 1) compared to everyone else if you build him that way.
But hey, giving melee good stuff was clearly not their intention when they released ToB...
Am I the only one here who clearly sees this as the intended power lvl of BSB?
...

I bolded the part that I see a problem with. Thunderous Throw reads, in part
...As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties.....
Again, bolding is my edit. The ability doesn't make you treat your ranged weapon as a melee weapon, it just lets you use your melee modifiers for your ranged attack. I don't see it turning a thrown weapon into a reach weapon. That doesn't make sense RAW or RAI.

[heavyfuel]

Can you disprove that Thunderous Throw lets the weapon count as range reach weapon "until end of your turn"?

Can you prove it?

Burden of proof and all that.

[Gruftzwerg]

I bolded the part that I see a problem with. Thunderous Throw reads, in part
Again, bolding is my edit. The ability doesn't make you treat your ranged weapon as a melee weapon, it just lets you use your melee modifiers for your ranged attack. I don't see it turning a thrown weapon into a reach weapon. That doesn't make sense RAW or RAI.

Ehm..
Thunderous Throw is used with Throw Anything and a real "melee weapon". BSB can throw a melee weapon and lets the attack count as melee attack.

Example:
I use a sword with throw anything and thunderous throw to attack a target up to 50ft. away. Now tell me how this still doesn't qualify as reach weapon.

@heavyfuel
I tried to explain several times why it counts as reach weapon, how about you try to disprove my claim.
What do you think a melee weapon needs to qualify as reach weapon? As far as I remember you need to be able to strike targets (as melee attack) who aren't directly in your natural reach. And this is the chase here.

_________
Sry but I have to ask if you are reading and trying to gasp my comments or if you are just locking for a way "to disprove", cause I have to be wrong..? I get more rant than a thread about "healing by drowning" imho.. Focusing a bit more on the facts and a bit less on the rant would be nice.

____________________
edit: while I do make my claim so far mostly about RAW, it is also RAI imho.
BSB and his abilities is designed to turn a melee combatant into a ranged one. The abilities let you become ranged and still apply melee modifiers and attack option. So imho BSB is intended to be able to do things like adding Whirlwind/charge to his ranged - melee attacks. Imho this build isn't even the strongest/deadliest BSB build. BSB uberchargers like my hammerdin or shurikenado builds are imho far more deadly in most situations. (while the shuirken build also builds on Whirlwind I am atm sole talking about single target dmg output - full attacks - kill speed).

[Goaty14]

I like how the "epic progression" includes distant shot that has a prerequisite of 20 ranks in spot, but duskblades don't have spot as a class skill. :smalltongue:

[Gruftzwerg]

I like how the "epic progression" includes distant shot that has a prerequisite of 20 ranks in spot, but duskblades don't have spot as a class skill. :smalltongue:

18 lvls of crossclass points = +10.5 ranks
2 lvls of class skill points = +2 ranks
= 12.5 ranks @lvl 20

Distant Shot is the 3rd epic feat and thus would earliest comes online @lvl 27. At lvl 27 you could have 19.5ranks in spot (taking a class with spot as class skill). So you would need to delay it to lvl 30. Not optimal, but still not world-changing if it comes online 3 lvls later.



As I said, people are only trying to disprove the build/trick without trying to understand the build, or even checking their own arguments at all..

edit: wrong epic feat progression lvl. needed to correct it.