The champion is not worthless

[Lombra]

My post from the other champion vs battlemaster thread, I figured that the other thread should keep working on the software, so I'll dispute my comparison method here: the basics is that I compare what the two subclasses bring to the table in terms of damage over the basic fighter chassis.
Putting more work in what I spitted before I came to some conclusions with this method: compare tha extra damage given by Superiority Dies versus the damage given by the Superior Critical feature, both characters are built the same for simplicity's sake, (I personally like ranged battlemasters):

The adventuring day will consist of 6 encounters with an average of 3 rounds of fighting for each encounter, this is important because it will determinate the amount of attacks done at a given level. There will be a short rest after every 2 encounters. Both fighters are half-orcs wielding a greataxe to maximize damage.

LEVEL 3

6fights ×3ounds ×1attack +3 attacks from action surge
= 21 attacks.
freshly gained archetypes, the battlemaster starts out very strong with 12d8 to unload diring the adventuring day, while the champion crits 1 more time than his partner, for a mere 2d12 extra damage across the whole adventuring day.

BM=12d8 ~54
Champ=2d12 ~13 BM >>>> Champ

LEVEL 5
39 attacks
Extra attack, more chances to crit. Both characters pick GWM at 4. The battlemaster has still 12d8 of extra damage, the champion will land two mpre hits than his partner for 2d12 each plus a bonus action attack each for a total of 6d12+2×STR (which is 3 if we assume point-buy)

BM=12d8 ~54
Champ=6d12+6 ~45 BM > Champ

LEVEL 10
Improved superiority (d10 Sup. Dice) and an extra Sup. Die

BM=15d10 ~83
Champ=6d12+10 (increasing strength with two ASIs) ~49
BM >> Champ

LEVEL 11
57 attacks.
Moar attacks, moar crits. The champion crits 3 additional times compared to his partner for a total of 6d12+3d12+15 (GWM extra attacks)

BM= 15d10 ~83
Champ= 9d12+15 ~74 BM > Champ

LEVEL 15
Still 57 attacks.
More superiority dies for the BM, better crit range for the champion, the champion scores an additional 6 critical hits compared to the BM, for a total of 12d12+6d12+30 damage and gets a .8 chance of another critical hit with those GWM bonus attacks. It exploded. Let's add the martial adept feat to give more superiority dies to the BM.

BM=21d10 ~116
Champ=18d12+30 (close to 20d12+30) ~147 BM < Champ

LEVEL 18
d12 superiority and 3 extra attacks from action surge (gained at level 17)

BM=21d12 ~137
Champ=20d12+30 ~160 BM < Champ

LEVEL 20
Attacks are raining from the sky: 78 total
The champ is critting an additional 8 times over the BM, giving 16d12+8d12+40+2d12(critical from the bonis attack)

BM= 21d12 ~136
Champ=26d12+40 ~209 BM << Champ

The champion starts lame and grows like a slow exponential curve, while the battlemaster keeps the damage with a linear increase.

The battlemaster obviously has nice riders on top of damage as a plus, while the champion really has not much besides damage itself. Level 3 is cathastropic, at level 10 it seems like things will never go well for the Champion but from level 15 it works. Yeah it just works too late to be considered cool.

Please address any mistakes or foggy spots. Heah there are typos but I'm on my phone so suffer with me

"Oh wow you demonstrated that a crit-fishing build works better with the champion rather than the fighter"
Well, yes. But I did so to keep it simple, if we want to focus on damage it's anyways good to make those crits matter for both subclasses.

The fact that only SD damge is computated is not an actually good way of comparing the two, if there is a rogue in the party for example the battlemaster will have a greater impact in the fights thanks to commander's strike for example. But that's way too complicated so I figured that a straight comparison over a fightful adventuring day should be a good method of comparison. All around it seems to kinda work only thanks to the half-orc's brutal critical, so what I would do, is build it in the class eitherat level 3 or 10 so that the class can work even without being an half-orc, but being an half-orc will give you the best performance anyways.

Edit: I didn't take in account extra attack when counting action surges, which in extremis amounts to 18 attacks that I didn't calculated, roughly one more critical hit for 4d12+5 total, but not a big deal before level 20.

The battlemaster stays the same, the champion is much better in thus scenario. Let's assume that the fighter will always use precision attack to get a guaranteed +10 damage with his superiority dies.

LEVEL 3 33 atks
Champ: 4d12 << BM: 12d8
LEVEL 5 66 atks
Champ: 9d12+9 << BM: 120
LEVEL 11 99 atks
Champ: 15d12+25 < BM: 150
LEVEL 15 99 atks
Champ: 32d12+50 > BM: 210
LEVEL 20 132 atks
Champ: 41d12+65 >> BM:210

Both damages are higher but the battlemaster is still superior in a similar way as before, even with nearly the double of the rounds.

*Consideration*: in a featless game the battlemaster is always superior from levels 3 to 20 included if the champion is not an half-orc, if the champion is half-orc the results compare in the same way as before.

[Corran]

I would say that a battlemaster would profit more from a greatsword and also probably from being a vuman. Riposte and precision are not taken into account as to their effect, which would increase the BM's dpr. Nor does the effect of any other maneuvre. And there is something else, which is the most importnt difference for me, the BM can spike their damage when they choose to (ie when it mattters). That's quite an important advantage he has over the champion.

I unerstand that you made the comparison as is, for simplicity's sake, but I am not entirely convinced that it is accurate. In fact, I would be really surprised if the champion ened ''better''.

[Mongobear]

I just posted in the original thread, so I figured i'd post my idea here since it seems more fitting a place for the "how to fix this" discussion.

Here is my idea for a easy to do fix:

I think it is as simple as smushing some class features into earlier levels, and giving the class something to synergize with their critical hit chance boosting.

Level 3 - Imp Critical (19-20) and Remarkable Athlete (Changed to Bonus Proficiency in Acrobatics and Athletics or Expertise if already proficient, increased Jump distances, and +5 ft. of movement speed.)

Level 7 - Something akin to Brutal Critical, or maybe "Add Fighter level to damage of your critical hits"

Level 10 - Extra Fighting Style

Level 15 - Survivor

Level 18 - Superior Critical (18-20)


Thoughts? Also, can you do a quick mathing of this version of Champ vs a BM just for the comparison's sake?


EDIT1: I sort of want to add the "once per turn" tag to the crit damage boosting effect, but that seems unnecessary since you'd need to have extremely good luck to actually crit so many times per round.

EDIT2: I also have a more in-depth idea for a total rework of Champion, but it is unfinished. I will try and finish it and post to see what you think.

[Azgeroth]

Personally, i dont think the issue with Champions is purely down to the DPR.

especially given its fairly obvious without the calculations that is very lacking prior to level 15 to other fighter archetypes, and given most campaigns dont even get to level 15, its a very sup par choice..

the biggest weak point for me at least, is the utter lack of options.. you have no abilities aside from beat em to death. the half proficiency in str or dex abilities your not proficient in is crap, and as people point out the increased crit range by itself is no great boon given the other level 3 abilities of just about every class and archetype.

so really, unless your completely content to lag behind the rest of the party in damage, accept that your only useful in combat, untill level 15 +, at which point your still pretty much useless outside of combat, but now you do outshine most in damage, is a very very long time to wait...

i think this option is really the reserve of campaigns that start at level 10+ given it could take a year or more of real life time to get the character to that point.

which is a real shame, i like the concept, i think maybe mixing in some swashbuckler feel, maybe with abilities like frightening presence, compel duel, expertise in str, dex and con abilities (at least athletics and acrobatics, con for things like holding your breath or drinking more beer), also things like the folk hero background could make it a great character..

but, unfortunately, as it is, mechanically it does suck. with the exception of dpr, when you get to T4 play, if, you get to T4 play.

[Lombra]

@Corran: burst damage is definately a strength of the battlemaster over the champion, but as far as maneouvers go, for the kind of comparison that I made the DPR doesn't really matter since you have a limited amount of superiority dies and I already considered all of them poured in damaging maneouvers. The battlemaster's tricks is what makes me pick it instead of champion, regardless of damage.

Edit: I can see that precision strike will give better damage thanks to -5/+10, but I can't come up wit a better solution then "to every expended superiority die equals 10 more damage" which alone would make the BM strictly better at any level. Which is plausible.

@Mongobear: superior critical at 18th level hurts. I will have to look at your idea more carefully, I'd like to see the polished version that you have in mind once it's ready.

@Azgeroth: I agree that the champion's lack of options is what makes it unappealing for the most part, and the fact that the damage versus the battlemaster only comes compareable at level 11+ doesn't help.

[Puh Laden]

I believe the champion's main selling point is its simplicity. If you want a fighter with options, you pick battlemaster. If you want some additonal variety you pick eldritch knight. If you want a class that is entirely about resource management, you pick a spellcaster. The champion is there for the player who doesn't want to have to write a lot of stuff down, or have to memorize many abilities, whether that's because that's their preferred playstyle or because they're still learning the other parts of the system. There's a reason the champion is in the basic rules document, along with the evoker who doesn't have to worry about allies being in their fireballs. A champion is for someone who wants simplicity, the extra crits and initiative bonus are icing.

[Misterwhisper]

Champion would be a fine subclass if they did not nerf critical hits through the floor.

Drop level 7 ability altogether and change it to let them also multiply their static bonus on their critical hits.

Problem solved.

[Lombra]

@Puh Laden: simplicity is definately the design philosophy of the champion but to say that he basically should be a sbiclass-less fighter isn't very nice. The evoker at least is useful among the other Wizard subclasses, the champion just seems like the worst choice for not-new players.

@Misterwhisper: I actually like it, but the frequency of critical hits still doesn't add up enough in the end :/ but I can see it working.

[Specter]

The problem with these numbers is that they account only for damage, which is not all about Champion. At level 10, you can get +1 to AC, and at level 18 you get 10 regen when below 1/2hp. Now add those and have a calculation of both of them suffering attacks at the same time as they attack, and you'll be surprised.

[Puh Laden]

@Puh Laden: simplicity is definately the design philosophy of the champion but to say that he basically should be a sbiclass-less fighter isn't very nice. The evoker at least is useful among the other Wizard subclasses, the champion just seems like the worst choice for not-new players.

@Misterwhisper: I actually like it, but the frequency of critical hits still doesn't add up enough in the end :/ but I can see it working.

A not-new player is free to pick battlemaster, or any of the options coming out in Xanathar's Guide, or to pick champion because they want simplicity instead of obsessing over their exact DPR, or to build around the champion because they want to see how much DPR they can squeeze out of its limitations, by, for example, multiclassing rogue for extra crit dice or getting find familiar for consistent advantage.

[Lombra]

Edited in the OP another comparison with different parameters, clamed to be more realistic by some, thanks for the input.

@Specter: I'd love to do it but it's out of my league to average the damage per hit that a frontliner would take at any given level, but I'd love to see it from you ig you can provide it.

@Puh Laden: I get it, but it feels like a "tutorial" class and it shouldn't be in my opinion. Evokers are simple enough but experienced players can still tinker with them.

[Specter]

Edited in the OP another comparison with different parameters, clamed to be more realistic by some, thanks for the input.

@Specter: I'd love to do it but it's out of my league to average the damage per hit that a frontliner would take at any given level, but I'd love to see it from you ig you can provide it.

Ueah, I know, it's hard work, I can't do it either. But have both the BM and the Champ taking hits at level 10 or 18, and the Champ will last longer. The lesson is: even if the Battlemaster dishes out more damage, it will take more hits.

[Mongobear]

@Specter: I'd love to do it but it's out of my league to average the damage per hit that a frontliner would take at any given level, but I'd love to see it from you ig you can provide it.



couldn't you use the "creating a monster tables" in the DMG and just use the averages for each CR as a baseline? That's at least where I would start instead of using a specific type of premade monster in a book.

[Lombra]

@Specter: that's to be expected, I'll see if I can come up with numerical quantifications ;)

@Mongobear: that's a fantastic idea, I'll try with it, but it will require time.

[mgshamster]

Per request:

1d4: 2.5, GWF: 3.0
1d6: 3.5, GWF: 4.166 (repeating)
1d8: 4.5, GWF: 5.25
1d10: 5.5, GWF: 6.3
1d12: 6.5, GFW: 7.333 (repeating)


Crit:
0.05, Adv: 0.098
0.10, Adv: 0.191
0.15, Adv: 0.278

[Lombra]

@mghamster: thank you :D
edit: I feel bad for asking more but what's the GWF average for a d6? (For greatsword and maul purposes)

[Mongobear]

@Mongobear: superior critical at 18th level hurts. I will have to look at your idea more carefully, I'd like to see the polished version that you have in mind once it's ready.


Here is the rough version of my rework. It basically is similar to the Hunter Ranger, giving some choices at archetype levels.

Champion Overhaul

Level 3 - Martial Cadence: Choose one option below

Improved Critical - Your critical hit range is increased by 1. (19-20)
Cleaving Attack - Same as Horde Breaker from Hunter Ranger
Shield Bash - Bonus Action attack with shield for 1d4+Str and free Shove prone check if target is Large or smaller.
Feint - Bonus Action make an Acrobatics opposed by targets Perception, within 10 ft of you. If you succeed, your attacks have advantage against the target unil the end of your turn.

Level 7 - Impecable Training: Choose one option below.

Remarkable Athlete: You gain proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics. If already proficient in either skill, gain Expertise instead. Also, Jump distances increase by your Strength modifier, and you always are considered to be making a running Jump.
Master Tactician: Gain proficiency in History and Persuasion. If already proficient in either skill, gain expertise instead. Also, you have advantage on these skill checks when interacting with person(s) of significance such as a General or Warlord, and you may cast Identify as a Ritual.
Cavalier: Gain proficiency in Animal Handling and Intimidation. If already proficient you gain expertise in them instead. While Mounted, you have advantage on these checks, and mounting/dismounting only takes 5 ft. of movement instead of half.

Level 10 - Fighting Form: Choose one options below.

Greater Critical - Your critical hit range is increased by 1. This stacks with Improved Critical.
Shield Wall - Allies within 5ft of you gain +1 AC as long as you have a shield donned and aren't incapacitated.
Whirlwind Attack - Same as PHB Hunter Ranger (Not the abusable version that's worded to allow moving between every attack. Move into position, declare targets, make attack rolls.)
Rending Strike - Once per turn, if you hit the same target two or more times with weapon attacks, you may deal an additional 1d8+(Str or Dex, your choice) damage to them.
Ambidexterity - If you are wielding a weapon in each hand, you may attack with both as the same Reaction when making an opportunity attack. Additionally, you may make two attacks with your offhand with your Bonus Action.

Level 15 - Defensive Form: Choose one option below.

Survivor - Same as PHB
Armored Fortress - While wearing armor with a minimum strength requirement, you have resistance to B/P/S damage from non-magical attacks.
Take Cover - While using a shield, you may use your Reaction to gain half cover against all attacks until the beginning of your next turn.

Level 18 - Mastery of Combat: Choose one option below.

Superior Critical - Your critical hit range is increased by 1. This stacks with Improved Critical and Greater Critical.
Powerful Strikes - When wielding a weapon with the Heavy Property, your target is knocked prone if they're less than 2 sizes larger than you.
Pinpoint Accuracy - While weilding a weapon with the Finesse or Ranged property, if you would attack with disadvantage and miss, you may reroll the lowest die you rolled for the attack.
Einhander - while weilding a single one-handed weapon and no other weapons, you may add both your Strength and your Dexterity modifiers to damage you deal with it.

[mgshamster]

@mghamster: thank you :D
edit: I feel bad for asking more but what's the GWF average for a d6? (For greatsword and maul purposes)

Updated. Please see previous post.

[Lombra]

@Mongobear: I LOVE it, I can feel the effort that you put in making it, it's a remarkable rework. I quickly read through it and it seems balanced with itself, will have to read it more carefully to spot eventual multiclass shenanigans. I always looked for a way to make more attacks with a bonus action for dual wielder, and a cool way to use both strength and dexterity for attack damage or rolls, looks good!

@mghamster: thank you again! I'll look forward for d4 heavy weapons to come ;) (maybe a 3d4 heavy thing... mmm...)

[GlenSmash!]

Here is the rough version of my rework. It basically is similar to the Hunter Ranger, giving some choices at archetype levels.

Champion Overhaul

Level 3 - Martial Cadence: Choose one option below

Improved Critical - Your critical hit range is increased by 1. (19-20)
Cleaving Attack - Same as Horde Breaker from Hunter Ranger
Shield Bash - Bonus Action attack with shield for 1d4+Str and free Shove prone check if target is Large or smaller.
Feint - Bonus Action make an Acrobatics opposed by targets Perception, within 10 ft of you. If you succeed, your attacks have advantage against the target unil the end of your turn.

Level 7 - Impecable Training: Choose one option below.

Remarkable Athlete: You gain proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics. If already proficient in either skill, gain Expertise instead. Also, Jump distances increase by your Strength modifier, and you always are considered to be making a running Jump.
Master Tactician: Gain proficiency in History and Persuasion. If already proficient in either skill, gain expertise instead. Also, you have advantage on these skill checks when interacting with person(s) of significance such as a General or Warlord, and you may cast Identify as a Ritual.
Cavalier: Gain proficiency in Animal Handling and Intimidation. If already proficient you gain expertise in them instead. While Mounted, you have advantage on these checks, and mounting/dismounting only takes 5 ft. of movement instead of half.

Level 10 - Fighting Form: Choose one options below.

Greater Critical - Your critical hit range is increased by 1. This stacks with Improved Critical.
Shield Wall - Allies within 5ft of you gain +1 AC as long as you have a shield donned and aren't incapacitated.
Whirlwind Attack - Same as PHB Hunter Ranger (Not the abusable version that's worded to allow moving between every attack. Move into position, declare targets, make attack rolls.)
Rending Strike - Once per turn, if you hit the same target two or more times with weapon attacks, you may deal an additional 1d8+(Str or Dex, your choice) damage to them.
Ambidexterity - If you are wielding a weapon in each hand, you may attack with both as the same Reaction when making an opportunity attack. Additionally, you may make two attacks with your offhand with your Bonus Action.

Level 15 - Defensive Form: Choose one option below.

Survivor - Same as PHB
Armored Fortress - While wearing armor with a minimum strength requirement, you have resistance to B/P/S damage from non-magical attacks.
Take Cover - While using a shield, you may use your Reaction to gain half cover against all attacks until the beginning of your next turn.

Level 18 - Mastery of Combat: Choose one option below.

Superior Critical - Your critical hit range is increased by 1. This stacks with Improved Critical and Greater Critical.
Powerful Strikes - When wielding a weapon with the Heavy Property, your target is knocked prone if they're less than 2 sizes larger than you.
Pinpoint Accuracy - While weilding a weapon with the Finesse or Ranged property, if you would attack with disadvantage and miss, you may reroll the lowest die you rolled for the attack.
Einhander - while weilding a single one-handed weapon and no other weapons, you may add both your Strength and your Dexterity modifiers to damage you deal with it.

It looks great! But, but, but, but I love the Champion for its simplicity. I have players that would struggle with anything other than the good old Champ.

[Mongobear]

It looks great! But, but, but, but I love the Champion for its simplicity. I have players that would struggle with anything other than the good old Champ.

Other than having a bunch of choices at each archetype level, it doesn't break away from the "a bunch of passive abilities" theme the PHB Champion has. You just get to build your own version and gain some utility abilities along the way

[strangebloke]

As combat drags on, the champion will always catch up in terms of total damage. The only interesting question is where that break-even point is.

It's obviously unrealistic for a fighter to get 70 attacks, all with advantage in between short rests, but its at least theoretically possible. Depending on the game, it *could* be probable.

I'll do a simple writeup when I get home.

Obviously, damage is must less important than the survivability that the champion archetype grants, as well as the versatility that the BM grants.

[alchahest]

Remarkably similar in theme to a rework I'd started on, but completely different in execution, here's the rough I had tucked away in a notepad. a lot of it is still rough or in note-form to be worked on later, but this is the idea I was playing with:


Level 3:
He Moves Like Them
When not wearing heavy armor, you may use your Proficiency Bonus instead of your dex for your armor class. The medium armor max dex bonus of +2 (or +3 if the medium armor master feat is selected) still applies. This class feature is incompatible with Unarmored Defense

Martial Discipline: at level 3, you select a discipline to master.

Destroyer: Crusher - while wielding a two handed weapon, When you hit an opponent, a number of other opponents you can reach equal to your proficiency mod take damage equal to your strength mod.
Pugilist: Fists of Iron - your unarmed attacks now deal D6. This class feature is incompatible with Martial Arts.
Virtuoso: Untouchable - You are now proficient with Dexterity Saves
Guardian: Get Back! - When making an opportunity attack, you and one adjacent ally may move ten feet before or after the attack roll.



Level 7:
Well Oiled Machine:
Your training and drills have honed your body to it's physical peak. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any Athletics or Acrobatics check you make. You now add your proficiency to initiative.



10th level: You gain a new bonus based on the Martial Discipline you selected at level 3
Destroyer: Unbowed - when adjacent to at least one enemy, you gain damage reduction equal to your proficiency bonus. This does not stack with any other damage reduction.
Pugilist: Knuckles of Steel - Add your proficiency bonus to unarmed attack damage, Your fists are now treated as magic
Virtuoso: Riposte - When an opponent misses you during a melee attack, you may use your reaction to immediately make an attack with advantage against that opponent.
Guardian: I got this! - As long as you only make opportunity attacks, you may use a number of reactions equal to your proficiency bonus. If at any time you use a reaction that is not an opportunity attack, you lose the use of this feature until the end of your next turn



15th level:
Pinpoint Accuracy- your critical range is increased to 19-20, and your successful critical hits gain an additional benefit based on the Martial Discipline you selected at level 3, as follows

Destroyer: Shatterer - Your opponent is knocked prone, and is stunned until the end of it's next turn
Pugilist: Rope a Dope - Your opponent gains a temporary level of exhaustion, and will stack with additional exhaustion levels. If an opponent is increased to 6 levels of exhaustion they are knocked unconscious instead of killed. ALL of these temporary exhaustion levels are removed after one minute.
Virtuoso: Heartseeker - this attack deals additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus, and ignores all resistance or immunity
Guardian: We're not gonna take it - You and one ally that can see you gain Temporary HP equal to the damage of the attack that triggered it.


18th level:
Terrifying Competence:
When you use your action surge, every opponent that can see you suffers disadvantage on all rolls until the start of your next turn, and must pass a will save (DC 8+Strmod+prof) or be frightened. All allies who can see you gain advantage on attack rolls until the end of your next turn



as I said, rough, but that's where I was at when I was working on it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mongobear's version is excellent. I very much dig.

If you want to keep the subclass as the "ultimate simplicity" thing, I think it's still very doable. Raw numerical boosts can still work, provided they're big enough.

I'd rather the Improved Critical be replaced with a more consistent minor damage boost-- say, +1d6 damage on your first attack each round, scaling up to 2d6 at 7th and 3d6 at 15th. Or +1-2 damage on every attack, or something. The crit boost isn't the end of the world, from a purely mathematical standpoint, but making it feel good requires too many extra elements.
Bringing Remarkable Athlete in earlier and pumping it up a bit is a good idea too. Letting it get you up to Athletics and Acrobatics Expertise is probably a good move; adding full instead of half proficiency to untyped checks also makes them a little more palatable.
Extra Fighting Style is... fine? You might move it down to 7th to replace Remarkable Athlete, then... actually, how 'bout an extra ASI at 10th to replace it? That lets you stay simple, provide a minor power or versatility bump, and still allow a guy to branch out a bit more if feats are in play. Plus, it ties into the general attitude of raw physical superiority.

[Mongobear]

Mongobear's version is excellent. I very much dig.

If you want to keep the subclass as the "ultimate simplicity" thing, I think it's still very doable. Raw numerical boosts can still work, provided they're big enough.


Thanks for the dig :D

I originally wanted to make Champion similar to the base PF Fighter, where they specialize in specific weapon types, and gained higher AC from armor, but bounded accuracy and the lack of any real incremental bonuses messed that up quite a bit.

Instead I went with the Hunter Ranger style, giving them a bunch of options which can be built for a specific style in mind, or mixed together to make something able to role-swap.



I'd rather the Improved Critical be replaced with a more consistent minor damage boost-- say, +1d6 damage on your first attack each round, scaling up to 2d6 at 7th and 3d6 at 15th. Or +1-2 damage on every attack, or something. The crit boost isn't the end of the world, from a purely mathematical standpoint, but making it feel good requires too many extra elements.


I thought about that, sort of a scaling Colossus Slayer effect, but the Imp Crit stuff is sort of engrained with Champion and I wanted to keep it available. Although, the extra dice does do well combo'd with the crit expansion.



Bringing Remarkable Athlete in earlier and pumping it up a bit is a good idea too. Letting it get you up to Athletics and Acrobatics Expertise is probably a good move; adding full instead of half proficiency to untyped checks also makes them a little more palatable.


Are we talking the quick fix or the expansive rework? Both are effectively the same, but they do other things in either version.



Extra Fighting Style is... fine? You might move it down to 7th to replace Remarkable Athlete, then... actually, how 'bout an extra ASI at 10th to replace it? That lets you stay simple, provide a minor power or versatility bump, and still allow a guy to branch out a bit more if feats are in play. Plus, it ties into the general attitude of raw physical superiority.


For the total rework, I dropped it entirely, which I sort of miss, but ifelt was needed with all of the new options.

An additional ASI is an interesting idea, particularly for builds that need 3+ decent stats, or that want to make their saves not terrible. Personally at my table, its in-needed since we roll stats, but for point buy or standard array, it would help a lot.

[Lombra]

Another thing to consider is that the BM only needs 21 succesful attacks to give it's maximum potential while a champion needs all the attack rolls to get those critical hits if I'm not mistaken.

[GlenSmash!]

Other than having a bunch of choices at each archetype level, it doesn't break away from the "a bunch of passive abilities" theme the PHB Champion has. You just get to build your own version and gain some utility abilities along the way

I see it. I totally think it's great. I just have a player that would look at those options, then hand them back to me and ask me to pick for her. My problem, not yours. And honestly not much of a problem. She's a great roleplayer.

[PeteNutButter]

I like a lot of the suggestions here, but to keep it completely simple why not do something like this:

Only change level 7

Level 7 - Keep Remarkable Athlete as it's a half decent ability for the initiative boost, but also add:

Improved Fighting Styles. Your fighting styles offer additional benefits as below. These bonuses apply to any fighting styles you currently have in addition to any fighting styles you gain in the future.
Archery- Add proficiency bonus to damage on crits with ranged weapon attacks
Defense- +1 hp per level
Dueling- +1 to attack and damage rolls for a total of +3 to damage.
Great Weapon Fighting +2 to damage rolls
Protection- Foes within 5 feet of you have disadvantage on attack rolls against anyone but you.

You could balance those as appropriate. The point is it could be a thing someone just writes on their sheet, and never has to thing of again, in keeping with the current champion. Champions are just better at fighting, plain fighting.

You might say it encourages MC for more FS, but level 11, 15, and 18 are still very solid things, most won't want to delay.

[bid]

1d4: 2.5, GWF: 3.0
1d6: 3.5, GWF: 4.166 (repeating)
1d8: 4.5, GWF: 5.25
1d10: 5.5, GWF: 6.3
1d12: 6.5, GFW: 7.333 (repeating)
The interesting bit is gwf comes down to 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, 4/5, 5/6.

[bid]

The adventuring day will consist of 6 encounters with an average of 3 rounds of fighting for each encounter, this is important because it will determinate the amount of attacks done at a given level. There will be a short rest after every 2 encounters. Both fighters are half-orcs wielding a greataxe to maximize damage.

The battlemaster stays the same, the champion is much better in thus scenario. Let's assume that the fighter will always use precision attack to get a guaranteed +10 damage with his superiority dies.

LEVEL 3 33 atks
Champ: 4d12 << BM: 12d8
LEVEL 5 66 atks
Champ: 9d12+9 << BM: 120
LEVEL 11 99 atks
Champ: 15d12+25 < BM: 150
LEVEL 15 99 atks
Champ: 32d12+50 > BM: 210
LEVEL 20 132 atks
Champ: 41d12+65 >> BM:210

Both damages are higher but the battlemaster is still superior in a similar way as before, even with nearly the double of the rounds.

*Consideration*: in a featless game the battlemaster is always superior from levels 3 to 20 included if the champion is not an half-orc, if the champion is half-orc the results compare in the same way as before.
Champion gains 2d12 crit damage every time he rolls 19 (and 18 at level 15).
BM will gain 1d8 extra damage using most maneuvers.
That works fine in your spoiler above.


Because of GWM, crits give BA.
At level 5, champ will not crit (.9 * .9 = .81) while BM will not crit (.95 * .95 = .9025). Champ will be alone to get a BA (.90 - .81 = .09) 9% of the turns, about 3 times. That adds 1d12+5/6+13 if it hits but doesn't crit. Lets call it 10 extra damage. {hit = 6.5+5/6+13 * .65-.25 = 8.13, crit = 2*6.5+5/6 * .1 = 1.47}.
** Champ 5 should be 8d12+30

At level 11, that's 12.8% BA or 4 times, 10d12+48
At level 15, that's 25% and double the crits for 20d12+80
At level 15, that's 30% and double the crits for 26d12+100


BM will use precision attacks with GWM. Spending 12 SD in 66 attack rolls means 1 every 5. I'll assume they get used when you miss by 3 dice points. That means the SD will do nothing if 1d8 rolls 1 or 2 since we were short by 3. So 75% of the SD will turn a miss into a hit.
Now, if I miss I'll do ZERO (0) damage. If I hit, I'll do 1d12+5/6+13 ~ 20.3 extra damage (21 with crits). Out of 12 SD, 9 will add 21 damage.
** BM 5 should be 189

At level 11, 1-2 on 1d10 means 12 of 15 SD each add 22 damage (Str20) for 264 extra damage.
At level 15, you can cheese out of relentless 21 SD for 370 damage or so. 14 hits off 18 SD still is 320...
At level 20, maybe 15 hits for 345.


If you need, I can explain the steps so you can get there yourself. With improvements I hope. :smallsmile:

Edit: erm yeah... no crits from precision attacks... thx Zalabim

[Zalabim]

I think actually giving the champion a bonus saving throw proficiency (Dexterity seems obvious) would be a good idea. That would fit in well at level 7 (thematically) or 10 (mechanically).

Precision attack won't ever result in a critical hit, so it really is just (chance that precision attack works) * (damage of an average hit). For your level 5, that damage is just 20.33~.

To use 12 SD in 66 attacks, you have to use precision attack at least 18.18% of the time, but you "miss by 3" only 5% of the time (assuming you don't have advantage.) It's different if you have advantage. You have to use precision attack when you (think) you missed by 1-4 to use all your SD on precision attack, so depending on your margin of error, you can calculate your average chance that precision attack works. Assuming you're always within 1-4 for a 20% chance to use precision attack, (and not 0-3 or 2-5 for example) then it's 25% each of 8/8, 7/8, 6/8, and 5/8, or ((8+7+6+5)/4)/8= 81.25%. (0-3 is 65.625% and 2-5 is 68.75%.)

75% is a pretty fair guess (less than optimal, but more than random) for average precision attack success rate like this, but it's definitely something that varies a lot with player knowledge, skill, luck, and intuition. Anyhow, that'd be 183 for BM 5, though it'll range from 160.125 to 198.25.

And again, attacking with advantage throws this all out of whack, as it distorts the chance of missing by any given amount by a degree that varies depending on exact AC/attack bonus.

[bid]

To use 12 SD in 66 attacks, you have to use precision attack at least 18.18% of the time, but you "miss by 3" only 5% of the time (assuming you don't have advantage.) It's different if you have advantage. You have to use precision attack when you (think) you missed by 1-4 to use all your SD on precision attack, so depending on your margin of error, you can calculate your average chance that precision attack works. Assuming you're always within 1-4 for a 20% chance to use precision attack, (and not 0-3 or 2-5 for example) then it's 25% each of 8/8, 7/8, 6/8, and 5/8, or ((8+7+6+5)/4)/8= 81.25%. (0-3 is 65.625% and 2-5 is 68.75%.)
You miss by 3 (or less) 15% of the time. It needed clarification I guess.

As you say, miss by 4 fails 3/16 (81.25% success). Close enough to 75% I used. Call that 5% an insurance against using precision on something that barely hits.

[Zalabim]

You miss by 3 (or less) 15% of the time. It needed clarification I guess.

As you say, miss by 4 fails 3/16 (81.25% success). Close enough to 75% I used. Call that 5% an insurance against using precision on something that barely hits.

Yes, but using precision attack 15% of the time won't have you using 12 dice in 66 attacks (it would take ~80, give or take). Also, missing by 3 or less means precision attack succeeds an average of 87.5% of the time. Missing by exactly 3 averages 75%, so I figured that's what you were using at the time. Missing by 3 (give or take 1, so 2-4) also averages 75% though. The clarification helps.

That just means you either expand your criteria for using precision attack until you're using all of the SD, or use the leftover dice on other effects like the still-good tripping and riposte, or more utility like menacing, goading, or rally.

[alchahest]

any attack you successfully use precision attack on counts for a change from 0->weapon+str (+2 for duelling or +10 for GWF)

in fact, using precision attack just to convert misses into hits might even work out to be worth more damage points than using them on crits.

no duelling or GWF:
Miss + SD Crit: 0+2Weapon+2SD+5
Hit+hit: 2Weapon+10

duelling
Miss + SD Crit: 0+2Weapon+2SD+7
Hit+hit: 2Weapon+14

GWF:
Miss + SD Crit: 0+2Weapon+2SD+15
Hit+hit: 2Weapon+20

and of course any on-hit weapon bonuses work better when applied twice than when applied once

[Vogonjeltz]

Champion would be a fine subclass if they did not nerf critical hits through the floor.

Drop level 7 ability altogether and change it to let them also multiply their static bonus on their critical hits.

Problem solved.

The level 7 ability is their Ribbon, that would create a problem where none exists.

Champions already have a higher DPR than any other class/subclass combination.

Nobody else matches it, that is what is so great about the Champion. Their static modifiers are better than anyone:

GWFS + Improved Crit range = win.

Yes, others have limited use abilities to add burst damage which provides a higher starting point, but the slope of their damage calculation is the highest in the game.

[djreynolds]

I would say that a battlemaster would profit more from a greatsword and also probably from being a vuman. Riposte and precision are not taken into account as to their effect, which would increase the BM's dpr. Nor does the effect of any other maneuvre. And there is something else, which is the most importnt difference for me, the BM can spike their damage when they choose to (ie when it mattters). That's quite an important advantage he has over the champion.

I unerstand that you made the comparison as is, for simplicity's sake, but I am not entirely convinced that it is accurate. In fact, I would be really surprised if the champion ened ''better''.

100%

Battlemaster is best paired with GWM or SS.

Champion is best with Shield Master, PAM or TWF. More attacks or a steady supply of reliable advantage.

Stuff like menacing and goading are great as they are still based on your strength/dex score as the DC

Trip and disarm on a bowman is awesome for melee team mates

[Zardnaar]

The Chamion is not crap, just not as good as the BM most levels, its better than the EK for most of the EKs career. Its not the worst class in the game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I had an idea about Champion.

First off, let's break it down. Fighters fight. They aren't the whole 'waaaaaaagh' kind of fighter, that's Barbarian. They aren't the sneaky shiv-people-in-the-spleen kind of fighter, that's a Rogue. They don't suck, that's a Ranger. But that's going over what they aren't... what are they really?

A Fighter is more than just a dumb beatstick. He's a tactical fighter. Which is where the BM archetype really comes from. So let's look at the word: Champion. To me, that sounds like a guy who is the best of the best, the 'standard bearer', the dude you do not piss off. He's the one that, in formation, stands about a head taller than everyone else, does a hundred pushups like it's nothing, the grizzled old Sergent that even the officers are respectful around. That guy. So... here's a variant on Champion that might work a bit better for that archetype...


Remarkable Athlete

Beginning when you choose this Archetype at 3rd level, your martial prowess extends to preventing dirty tricks... and using them. You gain Proficiency on any Athletics or Acrobatics checks made as part of a Grapple or Shove. If you already have Proficiency, you gain Expertise. Additionally, when you make a Shove attack, you may push that person back up to 15', or you may shove them back 5' AND knock them prone.

--- I always thought the level 7 ability for Champion was a dud, so I moved it to 3rd level to make Champion dips less appealing. Besides, lots of monsters have nasty things they can do with you in a Grapple. The synergy with the Grappler feat is intentional. Overall, this is far more practical than the original ability, even if it is technically less powerful.

Superior Reflexes

Beginning at 7th level, a Champion learns to take advantage of their opponents more effectively. He gains an additional Reaction per turn for each additional attack gained from the Fighter class ability Bonus Attack. Thus upon gaining this ability, then again at 11th and 20th.

--- Fighters are front-line meat shields. However, a meat shield is effectively worthless if they cannot effectively shield the rest of the party. This helps them do that. But late enough in the class that it isn't going to be able to be dipped for. Considering he can pick up something like Tunnel Fighter anyway as a Fighting Style, I don't think this is too powerful. I specified the Fighter class ability because that way you can't take Fighter7 then multiclass out and claim that the progression for this ability continues to progress.

I Am Your Foe

As an action, you may make a contested Intimidation check vs an opponent's Insight check on an opponent you can see. If you succeed, he takes Disadvantage on attacks against anyone but you until the end of his next round. In addition, if any ally within 10' is targeted by a ranged weapon, you may use a Reaction to change that target to you.

--- I know, it isn't a passive ability, but a Fighter's shtick is being the target. This helps him do that. Slightly MAD because you need decent Charisma to pull this off, but hey... that's why you get so many stat boosts, right? It also gives you something else to spend your bonus Reactions on. I was inspired from the cursed Shield of Arrow Attraction, which my meat shields typically attempt to acquire for the curse effect for this reason, as long as there isn't an archer in the party.

Tactical Doctrine

At 15th level, choose one of the following:

* Precise Shot. When making a ranged weapon attack, ignore Resistance to Piercing damage. This explicitly does nothing against immunities

* Mobility. When you break up your move between attacks, opponents have Disadvantage on Opportunity Attacks against this movement. In addition, allies in melee with this opponent may use a Reaction to make an immediate attack against him.

* Skill. While in combat, once per turn you may reroll any natural 1 made on an attack roll or saving throw from an effect whose source is known. This explicitly does not affect saving throws out of combat, from traps or any other scenario in which Initiative has not already been rolled, such as an ambush round.

* Bastion. While wearing armor, gain Resistance to Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage. Including damage from magical weapons.

* Power. While wielding a weapon which has the two-handed or versatile properties in two hands (i.e. you cannot use this ability using a versatile weapon one-handed), you get double your Str modifier to damage instead of once when attacking with that weapon. This ability does not stack with any other ability that lets you gain additional stat modifiers to damage.

* Shield Bash. You may treat your shield as a Light weapon dealing 1d6 base damage. If the shield is magical, it gains its normal AC bonus (if applicable) to attack and damage.

--- Basically improved versions of fighting styles. Late enough that anyone getting them will be 'a fighter with an x dip' rather than 'a multiclass x/fighter'. Each are useful to different archetypes, although it is pretty clear that certain ones cater specifically to certain Fighting Styles.

Survivor

At 18th level, your will to live has become legendary. Second Wind will automatically refresh at the beginning of any turn in which you start with less than half your maximum hit point total. In addition, you automatically stabilize if you fall Unconscious, and it requires twice your maximum hit point total to instantly kill you. Finally, whenever you start your turn unconscious, you may gain the effect of a Second Wind. Doing so consumes your entire turn, and you will need a short or long rest before you may do so again.

--- I actually thought the Survivor ability was kinda broken. This does something less powerful, because it eats your bonus action if you want to keep using Second wind, but similar enough. The second part should very rarely come up. But when it does, it will be pretty epic.

[PloxBox]

EDIT1: I sort of want to add the "once per turn" tag to the crit damage boosting effect, but that seems unnecessary since you'd need to have extremely good luck to actually crit so many times per round.


Hold Person or similar effects that Paralyzes a target or knocks them Unconscious.

[djreynolds]

My post from the other champion vs battlemaster thread, I figured that the other thread should keep working on the software, so I'll dispute my comparison method here: the basics is that I compare what the two subclasses bring to the table in terms of damage over the basic fighter chassis.

*Consideration*: in a featless game the battlemaster is always superior from levels 3 to 20 included if the champion is not an half-orc, if the champion is half-orc the results compare in the same way as before.

This is the issue, the champion needs feats. The battlemaster and eldritch knight could theoretically get by.

Without feats or multiclassing, a champion is dependent on superior player tactics or athletic contests or teammates to acquire advantage.

Otherwise the champion is just rolling dice and hoping for a 19 or 20 all the way till level 15.

Yes they get an extra fighting style, but these do not improve their chances at obtaining critical hits nor do they supply advantage, like reckless attack(at will) or vow of enmity(short rest) does. And without expertise these athletic contests are not even assured and it cost an attack to do this.

I enjoy the champion archetype, but without feats or even multiclassing they pale in comparison to the battlemaster or eldritch knight.

So yes, a half-orc champion with shield master and the new brawny feat can be very good character to play because of shield master and double proficiency in athletics granting advantage for your multiple attacks.