Magic the Gathering: Brainstorming [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Jormengand

2017-06-28, 02:21 PM

So there are a few problems here.

Let's just put the card into an easier to read format, and call him "John" temporarily.

John, Embodiment of the Warrior BBBRRRWW
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior R
Vigilance, Deathtouch, Doublestrike, Haste, Trample, Menace, Reach, Wither, Protection from Creatures
4/5

Right, let's start.

Problem 1: Nine is far too many keywords

The ultimate keyword soup card which is actually printable is Akroma, Angel of Wrath, a mythic (who used to be rare and then was timeshifted, but mythic is the right rarity now that that, well, exists) who has six. Also, this leads to problems with some of the keywords overlapping - for example, Deathtouch means that any amount of damage dealt to a creature is lethal damage, but wither means that damage dealt to a creature isn't marked on it at all. The creature still dies, but wither doesn't actually help you there. Protection From Creatures stops creatures Damaging, Enchanting, Blocking or Targeting (DEBT, to help you remember) and then menace prevents them from blocking alone, and trample deals the controlling player extra damage if they do. Doublestrike isn't massively useful with Deathtouch on a creature who can't be blocked or damaged by creatures.

So let's change that:

John, Embodiment of the Warrior BBBRRRW
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior R
Vigilance, Deathtouch, Haste, Reach, Protection from Creatures
4/5

Problem 2: The card is the wrong amount of each colour.

Vigilance and Protection are white; Haste is red, and Deathtouch is black. Also, colour weight the same as the CMC is a bit much.

Reach is green, so you probably should just take that off: warriors with reach, now?

John, Embodiment of the Warrior 3BRWW
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior R
Vigilance, Deathtouch, Haste, Protection from Creatures
4/5

Problem 3: Elves aren't Red without green, and aren't multicolour without green

Let's face it, this guy isn't really very... elfy. He'd probably be better off as a human.

John, Embodiment of the Warrior 3BRWW
Legendary Creature - Human Warrior R
Vigilance, Deathtouch, Haste, Protection from Creatures
4/5

Now you have someone who swings for 4 every turn, from the turn he lands, and stops nonflying enemies (but not ALL enemies, which would be a bit too much) from attacking without one of them dying. He dies to removal but so does everything (well mostly). He looks as though he might see play like this without being too powerful.

Carl

2017-06-28, 03:03 PM

Cheers for taking the time to go over it. Some comments.

1. I grabbed this from a document on a set i'm working on, i didn't mention that to avoid scaring people off thinking this was primarily a my personal project thread, i want a variety of people to throw their own stuff in here.

Anyway upshot, the set is all about an elvish society that very distinctly isn't typical elves, (some are), and cover the whole colour wheel. Black/red is one of the three primary colour combo, and white is the secondary colour for that combo, (all 3 elements are dual mana combo's with a third colour as a secondary element). This was built to be the top of a sequence of cards that where either black red, black white, or all 3 built on the warrior path concept. I should note it's what i call a concept exploration card rather than a strict "part of the set", i'm exploring when where and how i can go with each of the three segments of elvish society at the moment. Not making serious cards. It was just one i had lying around from that.

2. My experiance is strictly duels based, some mechanics however are distinctly absent or underused so not every usage is as clear as it should be. I totally didn't realise protection from creatures would stop blocking, that was not what i intended, it was meant to prevent combat damage, -x/-x counters from wither or other creature abilities, and general creature abilities of various kinds applying whilst still allowing them to block him, and allow direct damage and destroy effects to apply.

3. Your right i've no idea why he has menace, thats why i put double strike on him. Conceptually his entire point is to be your creatures worst nightmare, they can't do anything to him, if he attacks he gets deathtouch, double strike, and trample so they need two creatures both of at least toughness 4 to prevent their controller taking damage, and if they're indestructible whittier will get them. Haste was thrown on because it's probable it will be a common warrior thing, though thats certainly negotiable, (to be fair his existence is negotiable, i'm, just exploring the conceptual space right now as i said), and vigilance because he was supposed to include a white element without being nice about it and i needed an on card justification for that. (The white in this case is about controlling the self destructive tendencies of black/red's combo, not about straight white elements). Reach was thrown in for obvious reasons, if he's supposed to be the best single warrior in the elves society he shouldn't be gotten around just because they have flying.

Hope that explains the thinking behind it.

Carl

2017-06-28, 03:23 PM

Hmmm just to stretch my brain a bit, how about this, ('ll go with John even though thats really inappropriate :p):

John, Embodiment of the Warrior
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior R
Deathtouch, Double Strike, Trample, Vigilance
John Embodiment of the Warrior is unaffected by all creature abilities, keywords and treats all creatures as if they did not posses their abilities and keywords.
Prevent all combat and fight damage that would be dealt to John, Embodiment of the Warrior
4/5

That last 2 lines meet my needs in terms of keeping creatures off him and eliminate the need for wither, or protection, or reach. The last line deals with the combat damage whilst the first 3 retain his core offensive side and the last brings that needed strand of whiteness in. It's still a hefty card with 4 keywords and 2 extra lines of special rules attached which is still pushing it i think given your first point above, but was the most compact i could come up whilst remaining within the bounds of the initial concept. I've omitted the cost as i wasn't sure where to place him at this point.

Jormengand

2017-06-28, 04:12 PM

Deathtouch and doublestrike is still not a necessary combination. Deathtouch and first strike, maybe. Or just doublestrike: he deals enough damage to kill almost anything short of an Eldrazi anyway.

Also, John can't treat creatures as though they don't have abilities, because that just... wouldn't work. It's not a thing you can do. Trust me, it's better that way. Chances are, if you can't make your ability out of things which already exist in the game (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?text=+[treats]), it's not a good idea. Plus, this has dodgy implications: suppose I cast Insult (Which says "Damage can't be prevented this turn"), then a creature with 2 power which has doublestrike is blocked by John and a 2/3. It doesn't kill the target with the first attack, but then goes through it on the second attack. Does it deal 1 damage to John at all? Does it actually deal the lethal damage to the first creature? Rules-wise, it's a mess.

"Fight damage" isn't a thing. You could make him prevent all damage that would be dealt to him by creatures.

You could also give the poor guy his mana cost back!

So you end up with something like:

John, Embodiment of the Warrior 4WBR
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior R
Deathtouch, First Strike, Trample, Vigilance
Prevent all damage that would be dealt to John, Embodiment of the Warrior by creatures.
4/5

Which is a bit better.

Amechra

2017-06-28, 07:00 PM

We sharing card concepts?

Alright (the rarity is wrong - I can't edit the symbols in Magic Set Editor for some reason):

http://i.imgur.com/VrRQ8iL.jpg

My reasoning:

• Blue supplies Flying and the type. It also helps explain the tiny, tiny little body she gets.
• Undying is very Green. On top of that, getting a bigger butt from counters feels very Green.
• Unleash is very Red, as is the aggressive Power boost.
• She can't die from -1/-1 counters. Period.

Drop her once as a 1/1 - when she dies, she comes back as a 3/5 that gets +2/+0 when attacking.

Jormengand

2017-06-28, 07:14 PM

Combining two mechanics which were last seen in Innistrad-block and R2R block that interact in exceptionally funky ways seems like a really difficult way of doing the thing you want to do. It looks almost as though you're using the keywords for the sheer hell of it.

Amechra

2017-06-28, 07:27 PM

John, Embodiment of the Warrior 4WBR
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior R
Deathtouch, First Strike, Trample, Vigilance
Prevent all damage that would be dealt to John, Embodiment of the Warrior by creatures.
4/5

To be fair, John would be really good even if you dropped the "prevent all damage" part. Deathtouch + First Strike + Trample is that good.

Also, what's a medium-sized creature with Trample doing outside of Green? On that note, where's the Red coming from? No really, this is a heavily White/Black card... that costs and extra R and has Trample out of nowhere.

I mean...

John, Embodiment of the Warrior 4WB
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior R
Deathtouch, First Strike, Vigilance
Prevent all damage that would be dealt to John, Embodiment of the Warrior by creatures.
4/5

Would be a perfectly acceptable card... heck, the colors even work - John is stuck mid-aurora in Lorwyn/Shadowmoor!

=---=

Combining two mechanics which were last seen in Innistrad-block and R2R block that interact in exceptionally funky ways seems like a really difficult way of doing the thing you want to do. It looks almost as though you're using the keywords for the sheer hell of it.

I will admit that I did put both of them on there for the hell of it. I'll stop crossing blocks if you really want me to :smalltongue:.

I have a few ideas on how to shift things around:

- Drop Undying, give her Trample. I don't like this one, because evasion + Trample is a bit too much at 3 mana, even if it's all colored mana.
- Drop both Undying and Unleash, and make her rely on other cards to reap the full benefits. I also don't like this idea - too parasitic.
- Drop both Undying and Unleash, and give her...

Hana, Fire of the Stars
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard R
Bloodthirst 1, Flying
Hana, Fire of the Stars gains +0/+1 and Frenzy 1 for each counter on it.
Flavor text - Yay I have space for it!

That works out to basically the same thing as before, except the +1/+1 counter is conditional on you having already hurt your opponent this turn.

R/G gives Bloodthirst, U/G gives the "counters matter" effect, the bonus toughness is Green, Frenzy is from Red¹, and Flying is from Blue.

¹ Ignore that the only existing card with Frenzy on it is Black... it's more of a Red effect.

Silfir

2017-06-28, 08:05 PM

I don't quite get how Hana works from a flavor standpoint. She's a human wizard in Temur colors. Humans can't fly - so I suppose it's due to her levitation magic. But at the same time, she has Unleash - which is all about mindless fury and carnage; how does she have the calmness of mind to still levitate? Undying, in turn, is found on creatures that have some justification for their being hard to kill; beasts, spirits, the undead, not humans.

Just from her portrait, she absolutely doesn't seem like a flying resilient beatstick to me. She seems contemplative, wise, balanced, in tune with nature and the stars. There's lots of White in that image, and not much Red at all.

Mechanically speaking, Undying and Unleash is just odd and anti-synergistic. Unleash, in a vacuum, presents you with an interesting choice between extra power or defensive prowess. Combine it with Undying, and you end up with a non-choice in every situation - the first time you play it, you'll never unleash, because it would waste the Undying ability - and if it dies and comes back, you'll always unleash, since it already can't block thanks to the Undying counter.

I think it's important to pick abilities for a multi-colored card that work with each other and form a cohesive image. How *can* Blue, Red and Green be reconciled with one another? To me, they're the colors of shamanism - close to nature and base instincts, close to the raw elements, placing high importance on taking action when needed, but valuing knowledge and wisdom in choosing that action. All three colors have to make compromises to work together. Prowess-like abilities (Blue/Red), maybe Hexproof (Blue/Green), maybe some card draw abilities (Also Blue/Green) seem like a better fit.

EDIT: She absolutely doesn't looke like a Frenzy or Bloodthirst creature either. Incidentally, pure Toughness-boosting isn't Green - it's White or Blue (Triton Tactics), in the same way that pure Power-boosting is Red. (Reckless Charge, etc.) Green cards generally pump both at the same time.

The concept of "counter-payoff" cards is one I usually see on nonhuman or mutant cards.

If there's a way to reconcile Red with the image of a wizard balancing two stars under the night sky, it has to do with elemental magic in my book. Firebreathing perhaps - maybe the Tim ability?

Amechra

2017-06-28, 08:24 PM

Ultimately, I agree with you Silfir. I was actually thinking Shaman might make a bit more sense.

And I also agree that Bloodthirst and Frenzy ultimately don't work - like you said, they feel a bit too aggressive.

Some ideas:

• Swap the bonus to power with bonus mana. "Whenever Hana, Fire of the Stars attacks, add U, G, or R to your mana pool for each counter on it." Maybe trigger it off something else.
• Make her built-in source of counters be based off card draw. "Whenever you draw your second card each turn, put a lore counter on Hana, Fire of the Stars."
• I want to keep the Toughness boost, because I like the immunity to -1/-1 counters - it's very green.

So that'd look like:

Hana, Fire of the Stars UGR
Legendary Creature - Human Shaman R
Whenever you draw your second card each turn, put a lore counter on Hana, Fire of the Stars.
Hana, Fire of the Stars gains +0/+1 for each counter on it.
Whenever Hana, Fire of the Stars attacks, add U, G, or R to your mana pool for each counter on it.
1/1

Flavor text - Yay I have space for it!

Silfir

2017-06-28, 08:41 PM

The trouble with giving you mana on attack is that the mana is gone by the time you reach the second main phase, so you could only play instants off of it. (The other half of the trouble is that Hana would give you mana once, then likely get horribly murdered!) So yes, definitely trigger off something else.

I don't think it would be outrageous to let her give you her mana at the beginning of the first main phase, or even let her tap for it. She does cost URG and only has 1/1, after all, and she also needs a loot effect or a cantrip to do anything beyond that. I'd strongly consider giving her some way to get herself started, even if it's on the expensive side; something like "1URG: Draw a card".

Amechra

2017-06-28, 11:00 PM

Actually, before I go to bed... how about a ridiculous version?

Hana, Fire of the Stars 1UGR
Legendary Creature - Human Shaman MR
Whenever you cast your second spell each turn, put a lore counter on Hana, Fire of the Stars.
Hana, Fire of the Stars gains +0/+1 for each counter on it.
At the beginning of each main phase, add U, G, or R to your mana pool for each counter on Hana, Fire of the Stars.
1/3

I raised her to CMC 4 because otherwise she's just unfair. She gives you tons of mana to play around with, and turns really ugly once you've got a few counters on her.

Carl

2017-06-28, 11:16 PM

To be fair, John would be really good even if you dropped the "prevent all damage" part. Deathtouch + First Strike + Trample is that good.

Also, what's a medium-sized creature with Trample doing outside of Green? On that note, where's the Red coming from? No really, this is a heavily White/Black card... that costs and extra R and has Trample out of nowhere.

I mean...

John, Embodiment of the Warrior 4WB
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior R
Deathtouch, First Strike, Vigilance
Prevent all damage that would be dealt to John, Embodiment of the Warrior by creatures.
4/5

Would be a perfectly acceptable card... heck, the colors even work - John is stuck mid-aurora in Lorwyn/Shadowmoor!

=---=

Ok now we've got the thread going a bit more and i don't feel like i'm derailing my own thread by making it all about me i feel compelled to raise a question. How is deathtouch trample and first strike that powerful? Again i come from duels and at least there deathtouch doesn't kick in until after combat damage has been assigned, so it's either deathtouch kicks in and gets rid of the creature after combat damage is assigned or you overkill the target with combat damage negating deathtouch but triggering trample. I get the feeling from the strength of yours and Jormungand's reactions that maybe i've completely misunderstood how those interact and deathtouch is supposed to kill a creature after dealing just a single point of damage, thus allowing for large scale mass murder on a levels thats a bit much whilst still cutting major damage into the player.

That was never the intent in the slightest. It's major high aggression creature hate designed to force your opponent to either mass sacrifice creatures every turn or pull an alternative answer out of their hat.

As an aside trample turns up in nearly ever colour here and there with red having the most after green apparently, (the MTG site has a nice breakdown of what goes where).

I think it's also important to note once again, this is an "exploring the conceptual limits of the lore i've built" type card. What i mean by that is i'm looking at the types of elves, (there is room for some non-elf cards, but not a lot), that each of the 3 segments of the tri aspect society could produce, assigning titles, then seeing what idea's i can come up with that suit each title, that gives me a better feel for what i can and can't do with the lore concept i'm working with, (which is a repurpose not a custom built for task piece), It's allready provided a lot of useful info in some respects, i've got a much better idea of how to stay within the confines of the lore i'm working with and stay within the confines of the usual creature vs spell ratio by colour. It's also helping me get a feel for how big a set i can build.

In this case i was also exploring the ways and means of filling up the uppermost niches in the creature power tiers whilst using merely elves. Basically don't let the middling power toughness fool you, he's supposed to be on a par power wise with that very uppermost niche of non-mythic cards, you know the sor that tend to push close to double digit power toughness values or at least be in the high singles with extra rules attached.

I think what this experiance tells me is i can't do that simply by stacking several basic rules on a card. It ends up being way too many.

As for your little friend. Curious who/what are you referencing, went right over my head... Sorry.

lightningcat

2017-06-28, 11:31 PM

Running behind due to traveling, but...

I think something that is being forgotten here is the setting. Each block has its own specifics that change some of the default assuptions.
So why is this card an elf instead of a human, minotuar, or catfolk.
Also, I think you are aiming for mythic rare territory, not just rare.

If I was making this card i would go for a more sidhe influenance.
John, Embodiment of the Warrior
Legendary Creature - Elf Fairie Warrior
Deathtouch, Double Strike, Hexproof, Trample, Vigilance
Absorb X, where X is John's toughness.
4/5

This makes a truely deadly fighter. And one that can only be overcome by combat, but even that is likely to kill anyone and everyone that opposes him. (Yes I know there are plenty of non-target ways of getting rid of him, but still, but I'm aiming for flavor here.)

John is not a flyer, but this is still up there for cost, at least 7 total, but golds are usually a touch less...
While Vigilance is typically a white ability, it also fits in red. If I recall correctly, the Vigilance enchantment is red. Hexproof is typically blue, but also works for green. So my version might be (3)(B)(B)(R)(R)(G).

Now depending on what else is going on in the setting, I might go for Avatar instead Fairie. But my brain is aiming for a celtic theme here. And an arguement could be said for not using Absorb, as it is a complicated keyword, but it fits my image of him parrying attacks and generally being a dex-based fighter.

Amechra

2017-06-29, 12:12 AM

Ok now we've got the thread going a bit more and i don't feel like i'm derailing my own thread by making it all about me i feel compelled to raise a question. How is deathtouch trample and first strike that powerful? Again i come from duels and at least there deathtouch doesn't kick in until after combat damage has been assigned, so it's either deathtouch kicks in and gets rid of the creature after combat damage is assigned or you overkill the target with combat damage negating deathtouch but triggering trample. I get the feeling from the strength of yours and Jormungand's reactions that maybe i've completely misunderstood how those interact and deathtouch is supposed to kill a creature after dealing just a single point of damage, thus allowing for large scale mass murder on a levels thats a bit much whilst still cutting major damage into the player.

That was never the intent in the slightest. It's major high aggression creature hate designed to force your opponent to either mass sacrifice creatures every turn or pull an alternative answer out of their hat.

As an aside trample turns up in nearly ever colour here and there with red having the most after green apparently, (the MTG site has a nice breakdown of what goes where).

I think it's also important to note once again, this is an "exploring the conceptual limits of the lore i've built" type card. What i mean by that is i'm looking at the types of elves, (there is room for some non-elf cards, but not a lot), that each of the 3 segments of the tri aspect society could produce, assigning titles, then seeing what idea's i can come up with that suit each title, that gives me a better feel for what i can and can't do with the lore concept i'm working with, (which is a repurpose not a custom built for task piece), It's allready provided a lot of useful info in some respects, i've got a much better idea of how to stay within the confines of the lore i'm working with and stay within the confines of the usual creature vs spell ratio by colour. It's also helping me get a feel for how big a set i can build.

In this case i was also exploring the ways and means of filling up the uppermost niches in the creature power tiers whilst using merely elves. Basically don't let the middling power toughness fool you, he's supposed to be on a par power wise with that very uppermost niche of non-mythic cards, you know the sor that tend to push close to double digit power toughness values or at least be in the high singles with extra rules attached.

I think what this experiance tells me is i can't do that simply by stacking several basic rules on a card. It ends up being way too many.

As for your little friend. Curious who/what are you referencing, went right over my head... Sorry.

As of Magic 2010, Trample + Deathtouch works as follows:

Trample: Assign lethal damage to blockers, then deal the rest of that damage to the opponent.
Deathtouch: Any amount of damage your creature deals is lethal.

As a result, you attack with John and get blocked by an Autochthon Wurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=89096) (for example). You assign 1 point of John's combat damage to the Wurm, killing it, and then deal the rest to the player's face.

Combined with First Strike, you run into a situation where I'd need to block John with a number of blockers equal to his power to stop him... and unless I also have creatures with First Strike, he'd be fine even without the "prevent all damage from creatures" ability.

"Why would you want to stop him? He just deals 4 damage!", you might say. I respond by slapping a Lure (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=226905) on John and swinging. That's... 4 of your creatures gone each turn, more if I buff John.

Carl

2017-06-29, 04:23 AM

Aghhh, yeah that was totally not what i had in mind. Thats basically why he came with double strike out the box, so you couldn't throw say a single 4 toughness creature at him, you had to keep throwing stuff in his path 2 or more at a time to absorb the pain. (As i said creature hate). I suspect it's a case of a programming oversite as i don't think by default there's anything over 1 power with deathtouch till 2015, (where you get custom deck building and so can create some funky combo's), and even there you have to go out of your way to get more than 2 power so it's not somthing that comes up very often.

As an aside the Wurm is a great example, (albeit more expensive, and probably a bit directly nastier because of it being green and because convoke duh), of the kind of tiering i was working towards, some of the large non MR Eldrazi fall into the same kind of space, not sure about other big stuff in that vein of the top of my head.

@lightningcat: As i said repurposed lore, you can find the first draft of it further down the linked page of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487066-Your-spins-on-races/page2), though it's developed a touch uinternally since then, i've got a better feel for exactly how the community vs individulisum plays out for each faction. The Mother (who i've assigned green/white as primary colours with red as a secondary), might include celtic theme's. The master faction of which this is a part ois more "bad elvevs/dark elves/drow/goth elves/e.t.c." with just enough limits to stop them being inherently self destructive, and the Husband, (who i've tentatively assigned blue red with black as a secondary, albeit soft in all those), is you typical "high elves/city elves/civilised elves" type.

Oerlaf

2017-06-29, 07:04 AM

Perhaps I am also going to share some concept.

https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/turncoat

https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/complete/full/2017/6/20/1497982588800514.png

Randomguy

2017-06-29, 07:35 AM

I like the idea behind Turncoat, but its Power / Toughness are a bit too good for a 4 mana uncommon with haste, even if you consider its ability to be a drawback. Maybe a 4/3 would be more appropriate. (Plus, that way if two Turncoats clashed into each other in combat they'd both die, which I like flavour-wise.)
You could simplify the text on the card by changing it as "At the beginning of your upkeep, Turncoat deals 1 damage to you. When Turncoat dies, sacrifice two lands". The "you" in card texts by default refers to the controlling player.

khadgar567

2017-06-29, 07:38 AM

I think turn coat is good but needs some sort of betreyal mechanic were when get attaced replace the blocking ceeature with enemies choosing

Silfir

2017-06-29, 09:43 AM

I don't think the card would refer to him as "the Turncoat", just "Turncoat".

He ought to be playtested to see if 4/3, 4/4, 4/5 or maybe a 3 mana 3/3 would fit him best - I have no idea. The drawback is significant, but potentially negligible in an aggressive red deck.

If there's an issue I can see, it's that he's perfectly loyal. He only turns coat when ordered to do so. Maybe to justify his size there needs to be a way an opponent can take him away from you - that seems like a more flavorful drawback than losing two lands when he dies.

I'll throw in a concept, too:

Rift-Marked Wolverine, 2G
Creature - Wolverine; Rare
2/3

When you cast Rift-Marked Wolverine, target opponent reveals their hand. You may cast an instant from it without paying its mana cost, as long as it targets Rift-Marked Wolverine on the stack.

When Rift-Marked Wolverine is countered, put it on the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters on it instead.

The idea is that there are rifts where raw magic leaks out, and this angry guy adapted to it by merging with some of it - and now he's not only immune to countermagic (in fact, it's delicious), he draws out magic that's still in a magician's head.

Uncounterable creatures have been a way green has fought back against blue control decks for quite a long time, I just wanted to add a twist to it. Prowling Serpopard (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=426882) is almost certainly the better card at doing the job, but I think the middle finger factor is much greater when you can actually grab a counterspell out of your opponent's hand and feed it to your creature.

solidork

2017-06-29, 10:00 AM

It's been so long since I've designed Magic cards. I'm gonna post some of my personal favorites. Here are some from when the original Innistrad came out:

Arachnaphobia 2GB
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
When Arachnaphobia enters the battlefield, create a 1/3 green Spider token with reach.
Enchanted creature can't attack if defending player controls a spider.
Enchanted creature can't block spiders.

The Dark Ones Hunger 2BBB
Sorcery
Each player sacrifices thirteen creatures.

Oathsworn Cathar W
Creature - Human Soldier
As long as you control another human, Oathsworn Cathar has vigilance.
Oathsworn Cathar has first strike as long as a Human card is in your graveyard.
"I swear to protect those who remain and avenge those who have fallen."
2/1

(I was worried about this being to good when I first came up with it, now I'm not sure if it is even playable.)

Silfir

2017-06-29, 10:20 AM

solidork

2017-06-29, 02:43 PM

I really like those.

Arachnophobia could be 1BG, no problem - considering that the creature stays mostly functional as a defender, and the enchantment does nothing if you lose your spider and don't have any others. 1BG is enough to destroy a creature outright - see Maelstrom Pulse or Putrefy.

None of them would waltz into any Modern decks, but they're flavorful and easily limited playable.

Thanks!

You're probably right. I didn't want to push the power level too far above a solid uncommon, and charged a little more since it's not something green and black can normally do. It's hard to make these kinds of development decisions in a vacuum. MaRo says that they don't even bother assigning costs during design, but that feels wrong.

Silfir

2017-06-29, 04:15 PM

It's not completely unheard of - Arachnus Web (http://magiccards.info/m12/en/163.html) exists. From a flavor standpoint, it represents an actual spider web, a purely physical effect, but still.

The crippling phobias that target creatures have been blue so far - Claustrophobia, Agoraphobia - so there's an argument to be made that the card should be Green/Blue. Black does have Terror and other frightening cards (and Triskaidekaphobia and Mortiphobia, neither of which, however, are Auras), and there are no even partially blue spiders. There are plenty of Green/Black spiders - one true multi-colored one, and some green ones with black activation costs, such as Ishkanah. (All printed fairly recently, too.)

There's a case to be made for mono-green - fear of spiders could be seen as a primal, instinctual type of fear, which Green is allowed to instill - but I think Black/Green is ultimately justified.

Anyway, once you've decided that you're allowed to make a card, it won't do any harm to make sure it's playable. It's true that Arachnus Web is weaker than Arrest, but there's no need to make a card that's both weaker than what you could play in-color *and* more expensive.

Costs are never finalized until after play-testing, and sometimes you end up with overcosted functional reprints of otherwise perfectly balanced cards because the Limited or Standard environment commands it - I doubt Arachnophobia would turn out to be broken at 1BG, though.

solidork

2017-06-29, 05:58 PM

Run Ragged 2UR
Sorcery
Gain control of target creature until end of turn. Untap it. It gains haste until end of turn. It doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.

Rebuttal UW
Instant
Counter target non-creature spell. If it's your turn, draw a card.
"Perhaps you should take a moment to collect your thoughts."

Guardian of the Gates 3WWW
Creature - Giant Soldier
Creatures without flying can't attack you or planeswalkers you control unless they fought Guardian of the Gates this turn.
Creatures your opponents control have, "{0}: This creature fights target creature named Guardian of the Gates. Activate this ability only once each turn."
5/8

Capromancer RR
Creature - Goblin Shaman
Capromancer can't be blocked by Goats.
Whenever an opponent would create a creature token, he or she creates a 1/1 red Goat creature token instead.
2/2

Silfir

2017-06-29, 07:09 PM

Run Ragged
I don't think the card works as intended - "its controller's next untap step" is the next untap step of the player who cast Run Ragged (since the card's first effect makes that player the controller), not its original controller. I also think it's advisable to stick to the templating of the Threaten effect, as it's used on Act of Treason, which uses "Untap that creature." instead of "Untap it."

For the card to work as intended, it might be as simple as "The next time that creature would untap during any player's untap step, it doesn't."

If you can get it to work for certain with the templating, I like it quite a bit. Very strong tempo play - potentially too strong!

Rebuttal
My main issue would be that I don't quite see how the addition of White will add card draw to Negate. The blue/white counterspells I found generally added lifegain or Silence (http://magiccards.info/dgm/en/96.html).

The closest match is Hindering Light (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/173.html), which has guaranteed card draw, but is a lot narrower in what it can hit. It has a bit of White's "Protection from..." flavor in it, since its main deal is protecting your cards from removal and yourself from burn, but it can't interact with combos.

I suppose the protective aspect is represented by the card draw only triggering in your turn - basically, when you react to instants cast by your opponent during your turn, which will almost always be counterspells or removal spells.

I think cheap counterspells that cantrip need to be a bit more limited in application than Rebuttal, though WU *is* a bit harder to cast even in a blue/white deck than Negate would be. Not sure. I keep thinking there are other things to do with a blue/white counterspell than card draw or lifegain that haven't been done before.

Guardian of the Gates
Could provide a nasty lock with any version of Shroud on an Equipment or Aura. In practice, he's probably going to get swarmed and killed almost as soon as you play him. As long as your opponent has at least 8 power or one creature with deathtouch, they can snipe him before you can put protection on him - they don't even need to tap to fight him. An interesting thing to note is that the colors that will have trouble flying over him - Green in particular - are also the colors that'll find it easier to cast big ground creatures that can beat him in a fight. All in all, that's probably what keeps the guy fair. He's probably not going down without taking two or three creatures with him, so worth his 3WWW price tag. I suppose the "Activate this ability only once each turn" deal is so he doesn't trade with creatures big enough to survive fighting him once?

"Big Giant that protects you from many creatures at once" is certainly White - not sure fighting is within the color pie outside of Green or Red, even if your opponent gets to use it.

Capromancer
Definitely won't break any formats; he's just a hard-to-cast bear in most matchups. If there's a dominant tribal deck, there are bound to be more effective ways of fighting them, particularly in Red. I don't think he'd see a Limited main deck; he'd have to be a little bigger or easier to cast. He sure is funny, though!

solidork

2017-06-29, 11:19 PM

Thanks for your comments! I'm gonna try to resist spamming this thread.

Run Ragged
I don't think the card works as intended - "its controller's next untap step" is the next untap step of the player who cast Run Ragged (since the card's first effect makes that player the controller), not its original controller. I also think it's advisable to stick to the templating of the Threaten effect, as it's used on Act of Treason, which uses "Untap that creature." instead of "Untap it."

For the card to work as intended, it might be as simple as "The next time that creature would untap during any player's untap step, it doesn't."

If you can get it to work for certain with the templating, I like it quite a bit. Very strong tempo play - potentially too strong!

Checking the rulings on other "freeze" cards, it seems like it works even if it changes controllers. Interestingly enough, Exert does not. The templating thing is totally a flub. I agree that it would be quite the beating, and that's probably why something like it hasn't made it into a set so far. I'm honestly not sure I like it in UR with the current flavor (they're tired because you forced them to run around and fight and stuff), and seriously considered switching it to something more like this:

Run Ragged 1RR (It'd need to be rare, but I think it would actually have a shot at being constructed playable so maybe worth it?)
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
When Run Ragged enters the battlefield, you gain control of enchanted creature until end of turn. Untap that creature. It gains haste until end of turn.
Enchanted creature can't block.

(Templating based off of Frenzied Fugue.)

Rebuttal
I suppose the protective aspect is represented by the card draw only triggering in your turn - basically, when you react to instants cast by your opponent during your turn, which will almost always be counterspells or removal spells.

I think cheap counterspells that cantrip need to be a bit more limited in application than Rebuttal, though WU *is* a bit harder to cast even in a blue/white deck than Negate would be. Not sure. I keep thinking there are other things to do with a blue/white counterspell than card draw or lifegain that haven't been done before.

Yeah, it started as "only cast this on your turn" but I decided to push it and felt that rewarding defensive play was still reasonable for white.

Guardian of the Gates
Could provide a nasty lock with any version of Shroud on an Equipment or Aura. In practice, he's probably going to get swarmed and killed almost as soon as you play him. As long as your opponent has at least 8 power or one creature with deathtouch, they can snipe him before you can put protection on him - they don't even need to tap to fight him. An interesting thing to note is that the colors that will have trouble flying over him - Green in particular - are also the colors that'll find it easier to cast big ground creatures that can beat him in a fight. All in all, that's probably what keeps the guy fair. He's probably not going down without taking two or three creatures with him, so worth his 3WWW price tag. I suppose the "Activate this ability only once each turn" deal is so he doesn't trade with creatures big enough to survive fighting him once?

"Big Giant that protects you from many creatures at once" is certainly White - not sure fighting is within the color pie outside of Green or Red, even if your opponent gets to use it.

Yeah, I was really enamored with the first line of text but not sure where to take it after that. The shroud interaction is kinda a flavor fail, I might have to reconsider if I take another crack at it.

Capromancer
Definitely won't break any formats; he's just a hard-to-cast bear in most matchups. If there's a dominant tribal deck, there are bound to be more effective ways of fighting them, particularly in Red. I don't think he'd see a Limited main deck; he'd have to be a little bigger or easier to cast. He sure is funny, though!

He's a particularly goofy way to disrupt stuff like Dark Depths and Kiki-Jiki. You might also run him in commander, even if you're not goblins.

solidork

2017-06-30, 09:56 AM

Not sure if this should be a creature or some kind of artifact. It's a pretty narrow effect.

Non-mana activated abilities of non-enchantment permanents your opponents control cost an additional {T} to activate, up to a maximum of one {T}.(An activated ability that normally costs {2} now costs {2},{T} while this card is on the battlefield. An ability that normally costs {1},{T} still only costs {1},{T})

This does mostly the same thing (but better) without doing cost modification shenanigans:

Non-mana activated abilities of permanents your opponents control have "Activate this ability only once each turn."

This is only mostly a joke:

Azorious Appeals Process 1UW
Enchantment
Spells that target you, a spell you control or permanents you control have "As an additional cost to cast this spell, tap an untapped creature you control."
At the beginning of each players upkeep, if that player controls no creatures he or she may create a 0/2 blue and white Advisor creature token with "This creature can't attack or block."

Carl

2017-06-30, 10:51 AM

Thanks for your comments! I'm gonna try to resist spamming this thread.

Spam away. But to help you out i'll throw out 2.5 more.

Silfir This is all your fault. I blame your avatar since i was looking for some quick and dirty inspiration. And yes i know, it's been done a thousand times before and will be done a thousand times more.

p.s. just going to list colours not costs, i'm terrible at costing cards.

Colours: Black/Red
Pinkie Pie
Rare
Legendary Creature - Earth Pony
(3/4)
Flash
RR: Target creature you control deals damage equal to it's power to target creature your opponent controls
2BR: Return Target Creature card from your graveyard to your hand. It gains Flash in addition to it's other keywords until your next draw step.
Flashback: - (again not costing this as i'm not sure, probably her cot plus 3 colourless).
If Pinkie Pie would be exiled, return her to the battlefield under her owners control tapped.

Flavour text: Smile, Smile, Smile

Colours:White/Blue/Red
Twilight Sparkle, Apprentice
Mythic rare
Legendary Creature - Unicorn Pony
(5/4)
UW:Target counter spell is countered, then place a counter on Twilight Sparkle, Apprentice. Activate anytime you could activate an Instant.
UR: Copy Target Sorcery or Instant on the stack and resolve the copy first, then place a counter on Twilight Sparkle, Apprentice. Activate anytime you could activate an Instant.
If Twilight sparkle has 8 or more counters on her, you may remove all counters and transform her.

Colours:White/Blue/Red
Twilight Sparkle, Princess of Friendship
Mythic rare
Legendary Creature - Alicorn Pony
(10/8)
Flying, Hexproof
Whenever you cast an Instant, Sorcery, or activate a mana ability of a permanent you may Regenerate Twilight Sparkle, Princess of Friendship
UWR:You may counter target counter spell, then then you may copy Target Sorcery or Instant on the stack and resolve the copy first. Activate anytime you could activate an Instant.
2UWR: Target Instant or Sorcery with Flashback that is exiled may activate it's Flashback whilst exiled as if it were in the graveyard.

Silfir

2017-06-30, 10:56 AM

I don't have the rules mojo to judge it, but I get the feeling the construction you've chosen comes with all sorts of problems. For instance, for a spell to target your or a permanent you control, it has to be on the stack - doesn't that mean its cost must already have been paid...?

I'd rather go with "Whenever a player casts a spell that targets you or a permanent you control, exile that spell unless its controller taps an untapped creature he or she controls." (Exile - disappears permanently in the bureaucratic black hole.)

I don't really like the Advisor token - they neuter the effect that you play the card for, and don't interact with the creature game. There are creatures that can't attack and creatures that can't block - I don't think creatures that can't do either intrinsically exist, and there's probably a reason for that. I'd experiment with getting rid of the tokens and jacking up the cost; could be an interesting way to punish opponents for playing creatureless decks.

As for the ability that adds T to mana costs - I'd be very curious to see how it works out with Untap abilities. Do they cancel each other out - you can now use the ability on untapped creatures, leaving them untapped afterward? Or can you only use the abilities now on tapped creatures, leaving them tapped? Or can you not use them at all now, because you have to pay the costs at the same time and you can't?

EDIT: Ha, who hasn't made Magic cards of the Mane Six before?

That said - I don't think Pinkie is Black. She lacks the selfish, power-focused, amoral aspect - pretty much any aspect of Black, actually. What she is is unconventional and quirky - I've always seen her as closest aligned with Blue/Red, the color of mad scientists. (Pinkie's straight-haired alter ego, I grant you, is Black - but she's deserving of her own card.) As for the abilities you've chosen - inciting fights and necromancy is definitely not what I would have thought of...

By the same token, I don't think Twilight has an ounce of Red in her - Pre-Pilot Twilight Sparkle is pure Blue, post-coronation she's Blue/White - pre-coronation it's a toss-up; I lean towards making her blue to cast, with a "If W was spent to cast" trigger. Twilight Sparkle technically speaking never was "apprenticed" to anyone, and anyway pre-coronation she's anything but a combat powerhouse. Even as Princess Twilight, I think 10/8 is vastly overdoing it - especially considering the abilities are super-broken as well.

Flavor-wise, I don't think Transform cards for creatures particularly suit Equestria, since they were created for Innistrad, and usually depict rather gruesome and monstrous transformations. That said, I could see Twilight Sparkle as a Transform-Planeswalker a la Jace, Vryn Prodigy, going from creature to Planeswalker.

Either way, these cards skew towards such a high point in the power scale that it's no wonder they're hard to cost - if you give them a fair cost, it'll be so high you'll barely ever get to play with them. I would err towards making the Mane Six and Pre-Coronation Twilight fairly small creatures - remember, even a 2/3 is capable of slaying a grizzly bear and living to tell the tale - and give them one ability that matches them well.

UR: Copy Target Sorcery or Instant on the stack and resolve the copy first, then place a counter on Twilight Sparkle, Apprentice. Activate anytime you could activate an Instant.

There are a multitude of problems with this ability - I think it's important, when writing these, to take a look at existing cards that do the same thing, and pay attention to how they're worded (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=290289).

- The right way of copying an instant or sorcery on the stack is writing "Copy target instant or sorcery spell" - all nonland cards are spells while they're on the stack, but they're not spells while they're in your hand, graveyards or on the battlefield etc.
- "resolve the copy first" is a pointless, confusing clause - It's what's going to happen anyway, since the copy by necessity will be put on the stack after the spell it's a copy of.
- Without the "You may choose new targets for the copy" clause, as seen in the link above, you end up simply copying the spell itself, including the targets that were chosen for it, which severely restricts the usefulness of the copy ability.
- You can't have just "counters". All counters in the game are counters of a certain type. Some of them interact with certain other areas of the game - +1/+1 counters affect power/toughness, time counters interact with Suspend, Vanishing or Fading - some of them are specific to just the card. Maybe as part of the set design as a whole, you want cards to have "harmony counters"?
- Finally, "Activate anytime you could activate an instant" is pointless and potentially confusing as well: That's the default. You will find abilities from time to time that say "Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.", because that's not the default.

Anyway, as mentioned, I've designed pony cards before - I lost a number of them though. But here's my design for pre-Pilot Twilight Sparkle:

Twilight Sparkle, Library Recluse, UU
Creature - Unicorn Wizard
1/2
---
UU, T: Search your library for an instant or sorcery card. You may reveal it, shuffle your library, and put it on top of your library. If you do, put Twilight Sparkle, Library Recluse into its owner’s library X spots removed from the top, where X is the converted mana cost of the card you searched.

Carl

2017-06-30, 12:21 PM

Color combos i took from TvTropes useful notes page.

To go through them: Pinkie i agree on TvTropes with, but she's strong red soft black as it where, she can be very thoughtless, (see the episode her flavour text comes from for example), and even unintentionally conflict causing when she let her enthusiasm get the better of her to others detriment.

Her abilities:

1. Have you forgotten tail-crank minigun twilight so quickly, i haven't. One of pinkie's better moments just for sheer lulzy.

2. Who tends to be the one that goes chasing after people when they try to leave and convincing them to come back. Ok she's not allways successful but she allways tries.

Twilight is listed blue/white on the tropes page, and i agree, she tends to be both very ordered, somtimes to the point of OCD, and with her magic bookish ways blue really needs no introduction. Red i feel is more a part of her princess incarnation but whilst white definitely embodies many of the aspects of friendship, (and theres some of aspect in all colors really), i feel red is the other strong colour that embodies a large number of aspects too. I don't think Twilight is a strong red, but of the mane 6 i'd say only fluttershy doesn't have enough red to justify some on the card, and thats more her terminal shyness at work, it's too much a part of her for reds flashy mechanics to suit that a lack of presence is required.

The apprentice was a lore level way to name the side differently, (technically she was Celestia's apprentice, but you wouldn't realise it from the show).

I'm not sure where your getting the high power level from. Copy effects in the 2-3 mana range are a dime a dozen. Similar thing for counter effects.

Regarding the wordinig. I cnja be like twilight, a bit ocd. I was also going off the cuff. So i tend to end up focusing on covering all the details and screwing up the big things, (like the new targets). Add on My duels based experiance (it tells you pretty clearly what you can and cannot do at any given time but dosen;t allways explain the nuances of why), and i tend tos crew up some too.

Overall power level. Whilst when i'm being serious minded i'll put cards at a power level thats on a uniform scale, in this case i was putting them on a power level vis a vis where they sit within their own setting. Aside from a few god level beings, (a few of which have still lost to them), they're probably in certain respects amongst the most powerful in the setting. They don't often deal with things with pure violence, but i'd argue a dragon thats been made to fly away to find somwhere else to sleep or a cockratrice thats been made to turn everyone back to normal and slink away, or a mad god thats been convinced to switch sides, or an ursa Minor who's cranky rampage has been stopped by sending it back to mum asleep, e.t.c. is just as "defeated" as something thats been sent running with a good bruising or outright killed.

solidork

2017-06-30, 01:05 PM

Silfir

2017-06-30, 01:09 PM

Carl

2017-06-30, 02:47 PM

Link me to where anyone's arguing for Pinkie Pie to be black, I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it. "Thoughtlessness" isn't Black at all - it's Red. Black is selfish and amoral - and deliberately so. If you want to print a Black version of Pinkie Pie, you have to concentrate on just her incarnation in "Party of One". This is one thing Magic lets you do; creature spells summon manifestations of particular characters at specific points in time. So you can have "Pinkie Pie, Party Pony" representing regular Pinkie, and "Pinkamena Pie" representing her Party of One incarnation, with different abilities and colors.

If you try to incorporate every single gag she pulled off in the show's run into her card you'll run out of cardstock very quickly. Also, Twilight minigun isn't even solely her work - she's working with Twilight to pull it off. A way to represent it is to give Pinkie Pie the ability to untap other creatures, which is a blue ability. What this effect is not, incidentally, is a "fight a creature" effect - it matches direct damage, if anything.

A consistent ability of Pinkie's is the party cannon, so I could definitely see her using direct damage.

You haven't provided any actual argument for Red on Twilight - I can't think of any either - so I'm not sure what to say.

Repeatable copy effects in that mana range on creatures absolutely are not a dime a dozen - I can't find any other card that has it that cheap, without restrictions, and that easily repeatable. The closest is Echo Mage (http://magiccards.info/c13/en/43.html), and he has to be leveled up twice (making him a combined 7 mana creature) and tap (restricting it to once per turn). The power issue is also in the combination of that ability being put on a 5/4 beat stick (which I don't think is justified for non-alicorn ponies) that can also counter counter spells for UW, also without tapping, as long as you have the mana, and can transform into a flying hexproof 10/8.

P/T represent creatures' purely physical ability to cause and endure damage. I don't see how that wouldn't apply when printing cards based on MLP - if you want to put non-violent resolutions of conflict into card form, Magic gives you a wide range of possibilities in the form of noncreature spells or activated abilities.

Take Fluttershy's cowing of the Dragon or Cockatrice - rather than represent it as Fluttershy having Power and Toughness equivalent to a dragon or Cockatrice, it makes much more sense to me to give her an activated ability that prevents a creature from attacking, or print an instant named "Flutterstare" that can remove these creatures in some way. Discord's conversion could be represented by a sorcery that allows you take control of a target creature as long as you possess a creature with the Kindness ability. Twilight's ursa minor pacification spell could be a blue/white Aura Enchantment with the "can't attack or block" clause, and so on. Remember, only about 50% of any given Magic set consists of creatures - there's plenty of room to incorporate non-violent conflict resolution outside of creatures.

You can find TvTropes color page here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/MagicTheGathering), just scroll down to the black/red section. Though i advise reading the single colour sections in detail too as they include a look at the less steryotyipical but still relevant and important elements of each colour. There's a lot more overlap in some areas than people think.

For twilight. Yes i did, or do you not consider friendship to have strong red elements? I'd say friendships is very strongly an emotion driven thing and strong emotional concepts are very firmly red-centric.

DoH!: I didn't mean for them to be repeatable, i missed one per turn off Twilights abilities. Ughh. Got so busy being anal retentive about the wording i missed somthing important.

As for pinkie, errr i did set it up as direct damage :smallconfused:. That aside i chose it because it's one of her gags that was memorable to me personally and had an easy way to function within MTG, when you've got so many different things you could pick from as things which stood out for you about a character and that you can see a way to use you tend to go with what's most memorable for you.

Regarding P/T. leaving aside all the times the mane 6 have survived serious attacks of one kind or another the key point is they're major important heros. It's important that a major important hero card feels like a big card, even if it would be otherwise small for some reason. As some of the biggest names in equestria in terms of importance and effect upon it the mane 6 if looking at things purely as an internal view probably should be tough and powerful because as major cards they should feel like they're a big deal to have around. And that extends especially to cards like the mane 6 that would be famous in their own right. That doesn't mean you can't do low power/toughness with powerful rules the way i tried in the OP with embodiment of the warrior, (though even that has size lower limits, too small and it's too easy to remove), but big heroes should never be little thematically. MR actually talked about this in his junk rares article, amongst other places.

Blue Ghost

2017-06-30, 03:25 PM

I agree with Silfir on the color alignments for both Pinkie Pie and Twilight. For Pinkie Pie, I don't see anything black about her, and nothing in the TVTropes listing convinces me. Black is about calculated self-interest, and that's not something I associate with Pinkie Pie at all. I think Rainbow Dash, Rarity, and maybe even Applejack have more black than Pinkie (though the latter is still far from having black as part of their identity). I'd put Pinkie as strongly mono-red.

Friendship can be red, but it doesn't have to be. White, green, and red are all strong in friendship for different reasons. In terms of cards, white has far more cards representing loyalty and teamwork than red does, so I don't think someone who values friendship needs to be red, especially if their reason for doing so is that friendship brings out the best in people.

I disagree that cards that represent major heroes have to be big. For a canon example, take Thalia. One of the greatest heroes of Innistrad, chosen as Guardian of Thraben, leader of the Order of Saint Traft, and slayer of the Eldrazi archangel Brisela. A 2/1 in her first appearance, and a 3/2 in her second. It's about what feels right, and sometimes the hero being a little guy feels right. For the ponies, I don't think any of them are actually unbeatable. They've taken down major threats, but never without difficulty, and usually with extenuating circumstances. And they're not primarily known for combat prowess. I think small sizes work quite well for them.

I'll contribute my own pony card:

Twilight Sparkle, Princess of Friendship 3UW
Legendary Creature - Alicorn (M)
Flying
Twilight Sparkle, Princess of Friendship's power and toughness are each equal to the number of creatures you control.
Other creatures you control get +1/+1.
*/*

(I'd post a render, but I'm bad at finding art. Anyone have a sufficiently badass artwork for Alicorn Twilight that I could use?)

Also, here's a card for Luna that I've been using as a commander successfully for a while.
http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a560/BlueGhostITP/Blue/Luna%20Princess%20of%20Dreams_zps7q2xla42.png

(Dreamwalk is from Reuben Covington's custom Dreamscape (http://www.planesculptors.net/set/dreamscape) set, which I borrowed a few cards from for the deck. It means, "This creature can't be blocked by untapped creatures. Tapped creatures can block it."

Silfir

2017-06-30, 04:00 PM

You can find TvTropes color page here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/MagicTheGathering), just scroll down to the black/red section. Though i advise reading the single colour sections in detail too as they include a look at the less steryotyipical but still relevant and important elements of each colour. There's a lot more overlap in some areas than people think.

See, now I can find the reasoning. Just "TvTropes says" tells me nothing - People on TvTropes are wrong as often as there are stars in the sky.

Black is selfish, and Pinkie is the opposite of that. She's not hedonistic - she doesn't party for her own sake, to gratisfy her own personal pleasure, she parties so everyone else can have a good time. You know this is true because you know what would happen if Pinkie notices someone at her party who is visibly not having a good time. Would she ignore that person and continue engaging in the pleasure of the party? No - she would try to make that person feel better so they can have fun as well!

In "Pinkie Pride" is all set to swear off partying entirely because she considered it a personal failing of hers that she put her own needs above the person she threw the party for.

Pinkie is much, much too community-minded to have even a smidge of Black in her.

For twilight. Yes i did, or do you not consider friendship to have strong red elements? I'd say friendships is very strongly an emotion driven thing and strong emotional concepts are very firmly red-centric.

Goodness no. Passionate, mindless love can be Red. But Friendship? Friendship is built slowly, over time. It is familiarity, it is trust - in a sense, it's the lifeblood of community. If friendship is any color, it's White. Maybe Green, the other color closely associated with community. I think it's Green for family (natural bonds) and White for friendship (the bonds you choose).

Not that having friends means you're White. Any color is capable of making friends.

What Red represents is a philosophy of action before words, of brute force over finesse, and that's the opposite of what Twilight is all about. She can't be Red.

As for pinkie, errr i did set it up as direct damage :smallconfused:. That aside i chose it because it's one of her gags that was memorable to me personally and had an easy way to function within MTG, when you've got so many different things you could pick from as things which stood out for you about a character and that you can see a way to use you tend to go with what's most memorable for you.

Direct damage would be "R: Pinkie Pie deals 1 damage to target creature." What you've got there - "Target creature deals damage equal to its power to another target creature" and variants - is very definitely indirect damage. It's actually a subtype of the Fight mechanic, which is primary in Green, only secondary in Red.

Why is it indirect? Because the creature becomes the source of the damage, not Pinkie Pie herself. That means, among other things, that if the creature whose power is being used disappears, no damage will be dealt. Direct damage can't be stopped that way; that's why it's so Red.

I definitely agree that the Party Cannon is memorable enough that you can get away with a direct damage ability. I distinctly remember doing that the last time I made a Pinkie card. But the ability you designed is not a direct damage ability.

Regarding P/T. leaving aside all the times the mane 6 have survived serious attacks of one kind or another the key point is they're major important heros. It's important that a major important hero card feels like a big card, even if it would be otherwise small for some reason. As some of the biggest names in equestria in terms of importance and effect upon it the mane 6 if looking at things purely as an internal view probably should be tough and powerful because as major cards they should feel like they're a big deal to have around. And that extends especially to cards like the mane 6 that would be famous in their own right. That doesn't mean you can't do low power/toughness with powerful rules the way i tried in the OP with embodiment of the warrior, (though even that has size lower limits, too small and it's too easy to remove), but big heroes should never be little thematically. MR actually talked about this in his junk rares article, amongst other places.

The importance of a hero in a narrative has nothing to do with their actual power level - in fact, we often perceive them as heroic *because* they're smaller and weaker than the dangers they face.

The only member of the Mane 6 that's truly larger than life is Princess Twilight Sparkle herself. She should be 4/4 or bigger, no question.

Don't misunderstand - they should definitely make an impact. But you don't need to be huge to make a huge impact. And you don't need to be loaded to the brim with different abilities - all you need is one really good ability.

Just look at, say, Snapcaster Mage (http://magiccards.info/isd/en/78.html). One of the best blue creatures ever printed. He's saved the collective behinds of thousands of Modern players who've put him in their decks. To them, he's the hero. To opponents of blue, he's a hated villain. All while being a 2/1 for 2.

Also: You can only support a limited number of big creatures in a well-balanced deck. Most of your creatures have to be cheap. At the same time, if you're going to design an Equestria set and Mane 6 cards, you absolutely want your players to be able to play all of the Mane 6 in one deck, with a decent chance of assembling several, or even all of them during the course of one game. You can't do that if they're all 8-mana bombs. You *can* do that if most of them are 2-4 mana and just Twilight is big.

EDIT: Thalia is a much better example.

Amechra

2017-07-01, 09:43 PM

Eh, Fluttershy should be a 2/2 at least - she wrassles bears!

More seriously... How about some nice, cheap cards.

Void Paintermage ?
Creature - ??? Wizard
Colorless is a color word.
2: Target permanent becomes a color of your choice until the next end step.
1/3

Manabolt 2/R
Instant
Deal 1 damage to target creature or player. Then add R to your mana pool.

Mind-Cage Magus 1U
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
Cards in hands lose all abilities.
1/2

Jaxzan Proditor

2017-07-01, 10:15 PM

I'm not really getting the logic behind the first card there. Colorless literally (and ruleswise) means without a color; I feel like saying otherwise is just confusing since you're essentially saying "colorless is a color". Why not just have an extra ability to make permanents colorless as well?

The last one seems interesting, I'm just not quite rules smart enough which abilities that would cover. Is that mostly just stuff like Forecast, or would it also involve casting costs and things like that?

Amechra

2017-07-01, 10:48 PM

The first card is set up like that exactly so that you can treat Colorless as its own color. That way, stuff like Brave The Elements could give you Protection from Colorless. It's a combo piece.

As for Mind-Cage Magus... it nukes Bloodrush, Channel, Convoke, Cycling, Forecast, Reinforce, and Transmute. It also locks out stuff like Bestow, Evoke, Miracle, Prowl, or Surge, where they let you pay an alternate cost (since you need to pay the cost before they leave your hand).

Jaxzan Proditor

2017-07-02, 06:38 AM

I guess I'm just leery of any wording that tells me that colorless is a color, but the effect would be fun. Just a couple of questions for my rules-not-understanding mind: What's the intended reaction with something like All is Dust? And would mana abilities like Birds of Paradise be able to get colorless mana?

And, thank you to that explanation! Definitely a cool ability.

Amechra

2017-07-02, 12:50 PM

All is Dust wouldn't combo with this, since "color word" means something pretty specific (essentially, Colorless doesn't actually become a color, it just lets you pick it when something says "pick a color").

Birds of Paradise would be able to create colorless mana, however.

Yeah, it's a bit weird.

Endless Oceans 1U
Enchantment
Island cards in your hand gain Islandcycling 2.

Commendace Almanac 3
Artifact
Land creatures in your graveyard have Unearth 0.
2: Target land card in your graveyard becomes a 1/1 Elemental creature. It is still a land card.

ahyangyi

2017-07-02, 02:12 PM

Durr, Ranger Shaman of the Heavens Level 1 1R
Creature - Human Orc (Rare)
Double strike.
2W: target creature can't block this turn.

1/1

Carl

2017-07-03, 02:29 AM

I don't want to get into a colour pie argument so i'll bow out of that but i do want to address the whole important creatures thing because i do think it has some relevance to this thread.

First the point about impactful is spot on with where i'm going with that point. The thing is my experiance with duels has taught me that between various ways the opponent can force me to expend creatures in blocks, deal damage, put toughness draining counters on, and generally cause mayhem that anything under 3 toughness is only going to be impactful if it's an enters/leaves the battlefield effect because counterspell aside it just doesn't care about the opponent quite so much. 3 can be impactful but it requires the right design, 4 is sort of my minimum yardstick for the mid to upper range of this and for reliably impactful. White can cheat a bit with the way it tends to get permanent creature buffs so easy and so can get away with lesser values to varying degrees. and some situational factors that can show up on a case by case basis can promote a card by making it more effective than it appears, (Indestructible is a great one for this, a couple of my Duels 2015 deck use a 1/1 indestructible doll artifact creature that can destroy things it damages based on a coin flip, great little medium cost blocker).

I think the thing you missed as well in here is player perceptions. When you make a card it's important that when looking at it, it meets the player expectation. I'm not talking strict raw P/T or any other stat, but in terms of importance, of it's effect on the outcome of the game. When they look at a card that is of something they view as highly important, they expect that card to be highly important, to be one thats going to have a major effect on the game as a whole if they play it, (as above, impactful), and if it isn't, well they tend to get pretty dang upset. At the same time it's important to remember internal vs external vs complex balance. How important a character is considered is contingent on a lot of factors. Internal balance is about player perceptions between different major individuals. If another character is seen as clearly superior to another in power, then you do have to keep them down somewhat, although if the other thing isn't viewed as highly important you can probably push close. Likewise if you have multiple sub-setting coexisting you have to start considering the complex interactions of every character in every setting.

But thats the point, i was talking about looking at the mane 6 solely within the context of equestria. Are there times they get beat, yeah, but the same is true of celestia and luna and i think their raw power is well established, but overall they're, (the mane 6), both the most important ponies to the viewer in the setting, and amongst the most powerful individuals in the setting. They shouldn't necessarily be the biggest creatures in the setting, but they should be well up there and they should easily be the cards people most look forward to playing.

I should note blue ghosts twilight is in many ways a great blue white method of doing just that.

I'd also say IMO that the issues of P/T vs actual physical ability are probably why WotC created planeswalker cards, planeswalkers come in all shapes and size and representing their raw power with a standard card can be incredibly tricky.

Anyway now thats out of the way i'd like some thoughts on a couple of keyword abilities i've come up with for my personal set project. These came out of reading the darkest hours articles, and realising i didn't need to create one overarching mechanic for the whole set as such, but rather one mechanic that exemplified each overarching lore concept i was trying to get across. I'm still tossing idea's around without much success for the last of the three factions but i came up with two conceptual ideas that work well for the other two factions and i'd like review.

First Mechanic:

Communal X: When a card with Communal enters the battlefield, you may gain life equal to the highest Communal value amongst others cards you control that are Permanents.

This represents the way the Mothers section of society provides virtually all the basic supplies, (food water, wood, stone, ores, if it's fished, farmed, hunted, mined, or is somthing collected from natural sources they're involved in some way), and also their role in providing healers, cooks, and certain other vital elements of a society in terms of basics of survival centered professions to the rest of elvish society. They're a very green white focused faction. Though the underlying motivation, (that they care about everyone), brings a certain amount of red in on some cards. and lore wise avoids the worst excesses. How much you give of yourself to the community is self determined and individual, the more you give the more important you are in the hierarchy, but there's no force pushing you to go up and no shame in staying on the lower rungs.

Notes: The main thing i'd say is that i'd expect the communal values to fall behind the CMC by at least 2-3. OFC green/white is a good combo for really big creatures with a high cost so that still allows a lot of lifegain. One of the key things to be wary of is overdoing the lifegain however, and to provide ways of working around it for each colour without directly subverting it.

Second Mechanic:

Enslaved: This is a new subtype e.g. "Creature - Enslaved Elf". Cards care about the presence of enslaved permanents and can gain bonuses or trigger effects based on their presence and/or numbers. Most forms of Enslaved will be 0/1 Enslaved Elf creatures tokens with "cannot attack, block, or deal damage" put into play by various means. Though at least two more serious capability cards will turn up that have the enslaved subtype.

Conceptually the faction this mechanic is focused on are pure dark hedonists. They're all about personal self fulfillment even at others expense, and a key part of that is their widespread practise of enslaving others. Though since the Elvish society in question has been isolated from non-elves until very recently they're 99.99% elves they enslave. They don't tend to produce a huge amount of goods or the like, but they are very good at many aspects related to warfare. But you'll also find spies, assassins and a number of other professions that aren't really in line with the other factions. They also contain the party planners though as an example of a much more benign aspect, in fact most of their contributions to the rest of society can be described as entertainment focused. It's one of the few but it does exist. For a long time much of that was of only theoretical use though a lot of it's become much more valuable recently. Colour wise they're black/red at heart, but a strong strand of white runs through due to the various rules and laws surrounding enslaving and several other activities. These exit to ensure that whilst elves can express their personal desires, to engage in blatant self gratification the section of society as a whole does not become outright self destructive.

Notes: this mechanic is a lot more flexible than Communal but it requires sources of enslaved. Thats tricky as i need to include enough cards to make it work but it takes design space away from others thing both on an overall scale, (cards dedicated to it rather than other things), and on a specific level, (cards with it as an add on effect displacing other options). A lot also depends on the kind of rider effects it gets. It's also awkward as a black/red mechanic. Black and Red can absolutely care about other cards but it's not a typical effect of theirs as such. Thats definitely a bit of somthing i don't like, but at the same time i rather like the core underlying concept, because enslaving and their fundamentally dark hedonism really are what defines the faction.

The final faction doesn't have a mechanic concept yet, i'm tossing ideas back and forth but in case anyone wants to suggest somthing i thought i'd throw basic conceptual stuff out.

Conceptually they're odd. Mostly because he, (the overarching god which each section has behind it), doesn't sit on the needs of the individual vs the needs of the individual vs the community scale. He's off on a whole other axis. He cares most about creativity.
Magic, Technology, Science, and Industry all fall under him. As do many arts and similar concepts. At the same time he doesn't have as much structure as either of the other two,. The first is all about structure whilst the second imposes it on a serious level as a counterbalance. With the other two taking the extreme on the personal vs group needs he ends up taking what amounts to a neutral position in matters, he doesn't explicitly push towards either. This coupled with where he does focus level little need for the strict structures of the other two and that largely leaves him as the most individualistic faction, the others advance by outcompeting, or by outright stepping on their rivals, whilst you can advance by being best at somthing with him, he's just as interested in new ways to use your talents and abilities as he is in being good at somthing. You're likely to find a lot of absentminded professors and the like in his faction and most technology comes from them, (in that vein you'll find engineers, architects, e.t.c with him too). At heart he's very blue focused, but that individualism and creativity bring a strong though different band of red to things. On a lesser secondary scale however that doesn't mean that his section of society can't stumble into black occasionally. Inevitably somtimes the line in the sand for morality can be very hard to see somtimes and many a well meaning individual has strayed in a direction that perhaps a bit far off the beaten path and black is the other individualistic colour. Still it tends to be be result of excess enthusiasm, leading to amorality rather than strict immorality.

Notes: I considered doing somthing with artifacts but thats a bit narrower in focus than i want to go, there certainly will be a few artifact creatures ofc, but i don't think i'll be going extreme on them.

Carl

2017-07-03, 02:31 AM

Jaxzan Proditor

2017-07-03, 06:56 AM

All is Dust wouldn't combo with this, since "color word" means something pretty specific (essentially, Colorless doesn't actually become a color, it just lets you pick it when something says "pick a color").

Birds of Paradise would be able to create colorless mana, however.

Yeah, it's a bit weird.

Ah, I see now. So essentially it's something along the lines of "Whenever an effect asks you to choose a color, you may also choose colorless"?

Amechra

2017-07-03, 10:08 AM

Ah, I see now. So essentially it's something along the lines of "Whenever an effect asks you to choose a color, you may also choose colorless"?

Yes.

It also means that Swirl The Mists (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=80276) and similar stuff can affect "Colorless" now.

solidork

2017-07-03, 02:13 PM

Thoughttaker 1BB
Creature - Specter
Flying
When Thoughttaker deals combat damage to a player, that player gets an emblem with "Your maximum hand size is reduced by 2".
2/3

Wizards doesn't do non-planeswalker emblems, etc.

Hypnotic Influence 1UU
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
Enchanted creature doesn't untap during it's controllers untap step.
3UUU,sacrifice Hypnotic Influence: Gain control of enchanted creature.(This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)

Truefire 1R
Insant
Name a permanent. Truefire deals 2 damage to each creature or planeswalker with that name.

Having a cycle or a bock theme about naming cards might fly in paper, but would never happen because of Magic Online.

Predator's Instincts 1G
Instant
Target creature gets +2/+2 and gains "Whenever a creature dealt damage by this creature this turn dies, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature." until end of turn.

To the Skies! 1UU
Instant
Until the start of your next turn, creatures you control have flying and creatures without flying can't attack you or planeswalkers you control.

You, your creatures and your planeswalkers all gain flying.

Gaea's Vigor GW
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature or Land
If enchanted permanent is a creature, it gets +2/+2 and Vigilance.
Whenever enchanted permanent is tapped for mana, if it's a land its controller adds an additional mana of any color to his or her mana pool.

Manland Pants!

Illicit Herbalist GB
Creature - Human Shaman
Deathtouch
Creatures with deathtouch deal damage to creatures you control as though they did not have deathtouch.
"Which do you think is more expensive, my poisons or their antidotes?"
1/2

Silfir

2017-07-03, 09:21 PM

Hypnotic Influence 1UU
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
Enchanted creature doesn't untap during it's controllers untap step.
3UUU,sacrifice Hypnotic Influence: Gain control of enchanted creature.(This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)

Nothing much to say about the card (might be a little too good; you can't get this one back with enchantment removal, and you can grab whatever you need during your opponent's turn and untap with it.) - is there a precedent for that reminder text? Doesn't seem like a thing that strictly needs to be pointed out.

(I checked. There is a precedent - the Oracle text of Thalakos Deceiver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5253). Not the actual Thalakos Deceiver, mind you, just the Oracle text.)

Now I'm thinking about it more, this card might actually be more interesting if you didn't end up conveniently sacrificing Hypnotic Influence as part of the cost of the activated ability, and had to come up with your own method of untapping the creature to use it. Could be cheaper in exchange.

Truefire 1R
Insant
Name a permanent. Truefire deals 2 damage to each creature or planeswalker with that name.

Having a cycle or a bock theme about naming cards might fly in paper, but would never happen because of Magic Online.

I don't think the niche upside of being able to kill shrouded creatures with this is worth the whole Naming angle - much easier to let it target, then hit everything with the same name as the target. You'd end up with another entry in the Echoing cycle.

The card's design raises odd questions to me. Multiple planeswalkers with the same name can't exist on the battlefield unless you've got one of your own, in which case you don't want to hit it. Dealing two damage to a planeswalker also doesn't accomplish a lot. In Red I'd always opt for making spells that hit players instead - unless you hate Burn just as much as WotC apparently does.

Predator's Instincts 1G
Instant
Target creature gets +2/+2 and gains "Whenever a creature dealt damage by this creature this turn dies, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature." until end of turn.

This is the classic vampire ability (see Sengir Vampire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=429908)), and as such I'd prefer this is a Black combat trick instead, or G/B at least.

Since the creature only gets the ability until end of turn anyway, there's no need for the "this turn" qualifier.

Gaea's Vigor GW
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature or Land
If enchanted permanent is a creature, it gets +2/+2 and Vigilance.
Whenever enchanted permanent is tapped for mana, if it's a land its controller adds an additional mana of any color to his or her mana pool.

Manland Pants!

Comment confused me for a bit - this doesn't actually make lands into manlands after all. It does have a niche in that it can permanently enchant manlands, which I suppose is the intent.

Question to me is: Would I play this in a Green/White deck in Limited? I do think so. It is flexible - it's (not amazing) ramp that you can turn into a creature power boost late game. I wouldn't consider it a great payoff for going Green/White, though, so I wonder if the card wouldn't fit better as a mono-green card. It could still give Vigilance if you think it really needs it - it's secondary in Green - and there's nothing particularly White about it. I'd generally expect "Gaea's" cards to be mono-green; the only exception so far is Gaea's Skyfolk, a blue/green flying elf merfolk.

solidork

2017-07-03, 11:51 PM

Nothing much to say about the card (might be a little too good; you can't get this one back with enchantment removal, and you can grab whatever you need during your opponent's turn and untap with it.) - is there a precedent for that reminder text? Doesn't seem like a thing that strictly needs to be pointed out.

(I checked. There is a precedent - the Oracle text of Thalakos Deceiver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5253). Not the actual Thalakos Deceiver, mind you, just the Oracle text.)

Now I'm thinking about it more, this card might actually be more interesting if you didn't end up conveniently sacrificing Hypnotic Influence as part of the cost of the activated ability, and had to come up with your own method of untapping the creature to use it. Could be cheaper in exchange.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3Aindefinitely&s=cname&v=card&p=3

It's definitely pushed enough to be a rare instead of an uncommon.

I don't think the niche upside of being able to kill shrouded creatures with this is worth the whole Naming angle - much easier to let it target, then hit everything with the same name as the target. You'd end up with another entry in the Echoing cycle.

The card's design raises odd questions to me. Multiple planeswalkers with the same name can't exist on the battlefield unless you've got one of your own, in which case you don't want to hit it. Dealing two damage to a planeswalker also doesn't accomplish a lot. In Red I'd always opt for making spells that hit players instead - unless you hate Burn just as much as WotC apparently does.

Yeah, you're bending over backwards to do something that should be really simple. I mean, in theory it could also exist in the same set as a card that cares about naming things. They re-templated Meddling Mage since I last looked at it, so things might get a little hairy as far as wording goes to let the cards care about that and similar effects.

"Whenever you choose a name, you may choose an additional name that you could have chosen."

What a dumpster fire. :smallbiggrin: It's tricky because tokens aren't cards, and the whole point of a lot of cards in this design space is specifically that they are good against tokens.

This is the classic vampire ability (see Sengir Vampire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=429908)), and as such I'd prefer this is a Black combat trick instead, or G/B at least.

Since the creature only gets the ability until end of turn anyway, there's no need for the "this turn" qualifier.

I totally forgot about Sengir Vampire. I think it would actually make a pretty good G/B hybrid card.

You're probably right, but... Bone Shaman (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/176.html)

Comment confused me for a bit - this doesn't actually make lands into manlands after all. It does have a niche in that it can permanently enchant manlands, which I suppose is the intent.

Question to me is: Would I play this in a Green/White deck in Limited? I do think so. It is flexible - it's (not amazing) ramp that you can turn into a creature power boost late game. I wouldn't consider it a great payoff for going Green/White, though, so I wonder if the card wouldn't fit better as a mono-green card. It could still give Vigilance if you think it really needs it - it's secondary in Green - and there's nothing particularly White about it. I'd generally expect "Gaea's" cards to be mono-green; the only exception so far is Gaea's Skyfolk, a blue/green flying elf merfolk.

I had literally these exact same thoughts earlier today with respect to the colors and what rarity it should be at for limited considerations. Vigilance was so that you could still tap it for mana if you attacked with it. You'd need a very specific environment for you to 'live the dream' as it were and attack with your enchanted land; maybe a set that included Awaken or some other land animating theme.

JBPuffin

2017-07-04, 12:12 AM

I actually have a bunch of cards (like two and a half sets, plus some I made as challenges to myself) from back when I played Magic and designed cards. Every now and again, I'll get an idea I just have to write down - here are some of the things I came up with.

Breath Weapon <Cost> (<Cost>, T: This creature deals damage equal to its power divided among creatures your opponents control.
Prophecy - I'm not going to write the reminder text for this, just replace the top of your deck with the bottom and you've got it.
Crystallize #: Create # tapped Gem Artifact tokens with, "T, Sacrifice Gem: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool."
Prism - Ability word, "[Effect] for each color among permanents you control."
Protean - Whenever you cast a monocolored spell, this permanent becomes that color in addition to its other colors until end of turn.
Mantra — Ability word, "Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, [effect]"

(C=Waste Colorless, H=Phyrexian)

Mystifying Hourglass 3
Artifact :uncommon:
3, Put a card an opponent owns from exile into their graveyard: Return target nonland permanent to its owner’s hand.
When an opponent controls no nonland permanents, flip Mystifying Hourglass.
---Flip---
Time Twister
Whenever Time Twister deals combat damage to a creature, exile that creature at the end of combat.
4/4

Traitor’s Shape 4
Enchantment — Aura :rare:
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature cannot attack you, block creatures you control, or activate abilities that affect you or creatures you control. (This includes effects that do not target.)
“He’s a prisoner of his own betrayal. There’s no worse punishment than that.”

Eternal Struggle 1WW
Enchantment — Aura :mythic:
Enchant you and another player
Enchanted players can only target and be targeted by spells, permanents and abilities enchanted players control.

Fly the Banners 2W
Sorcery :uncommon:
Prism — Create a 1/1 white Human Soldier creature token for each color among permanents you control.

The Lampstand 2WW
Legendary Artifact — Fortification :rare:
Fortify 3W (3W: Attach to target land you control. Fortify only as a sorcery. This card enters the battlefield unattached and stays on the battlefield if the land leaves.)
Whenever you tap fortified land, add X white mana to your mana pool, where X is equal to your devotion to white. (Each W in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to white.)

Aerie Eagle U (five-card cycle, 1 per color)
Creature — Bird :common:
At the beginning of your end step, if Aerie Eagle died this turn, you may return it from your graveyard to the battlefield transformed and attached to target creature.
A messenger of things to come.
1/1
---Flip---
Tailwind
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and can’t be blocked by creatures with converted mana cost 3 or greater.
A breeze at your back to aid your attack.

Balanced Reaction U
Instant :uncommon:
Counter target activated ability. (Mana abilities can’t be targeted.)
Scry 1.

Bearer of the Diamond 1UU
Creature — Human Shaman :common:
When Bearer of the Diamond enters the battlefield, look at the bottom two cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the other on the top of your library.
Some treasures are worth more any price.
1/2

Ghostthought 3U
Instant :common:
Ghostthought is colorless.
Put the bottom two cards of your library into your hand.

Scour From Memory 1(H/U)U
Instant :uncommon:
Return target permanent to its owner’s hand.
Madness 1(H/U) (If you discard this card, you may cast it for its madness cost instead of putting it into your graveyard.)
“Are you sure it was there to begin with?”

Gorche, Scourge of Order 3RR
Planeswalker — Gorche :mythic:
Starting Loyalty: 4
+1: Flip a coin. If heads, Gorche deals 2 damage to target player. If tails, discard a card, then draw a card.
-2: Discard any number of cards at random from your hand, then draw that many cards.
-7: You gain an emblem with, “At the beginning of your upkeep, roll a six-sided die. This emblem deals that much damage to each creature you don’t control.”

Kazal, Frostbitten Berserker R
Legendary Creature — Human Berserker :rare:
Haste, prowess
2(W/U)(W/U): The next time you cast an instant or sorcery spell, tap up to X creatures, where X is equal to the converted mana cost of that spell.
1/1

Armada Mists 1G
Instant :common:
Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.
Formidable — If creatures you control have total power of 8 or greater, instead prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn by creatures your opponents control.

Bloommaw Devourer 3GG
Creature — Plant Beast :rare:
When Bloommaw Devourer enters the battlefield, create three 1/1 green Saproling tokens.
T, Sacrifice a creature: Proliferate. (You choose any number of permanents and/or players with counters on them, then give each another counter of a kind already there.)
5/5

Fruit of Diversity 1G
Instant :common:
Add G to your mana pool for each permanent type among permanents you control (The permanent types are artifact, creature, enchantment, land, and planeswalker.)

Tribal Instinct 1RG
Instant :uncommon:
Each creature with changeling you control loses changeling until end of turn.
Attacking creatures have trample and get +1/+1 for each creature type they share with other creatures you control.

Failed Experiment UURR
Instant :uncommon:
Counter target spell. Failed Experiment deals X damage to that spell’s controller, where X is equal to the spell’s converted mana cost.

Transmute Force GU
Sorcery :uncommon:
Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player this turn, add C to your mana pool.
Draw a card.

Arcane Edifice WUBRG (made a cycle of level-up shrines)
Legendary Enchantment — Shrine :rare:
Level up 2 (2: Put a level counter on this. Level up only as a sorcery.))
[LEVEL 0-3]: T: Add one mana to your mana pool of any color a land you control you produce for each Shrine you control.)
[LEVEL 4+]: T: Add two mana to your mana pool of any color a land you control you produce for each Shrine you control.)

Crumbling Reality WUBRG
Enchantment :mythic:
Crumbling Reality cannot be sacrificed.
At the beginning of your upkeep, each player sacrifices a permanent of each type they control.

Harvest of the Faithful XWWBBG
Instant :mythic:
Convoke (Your creatures can help cast this spell. Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for 1 or one mana of that creature’s color.)
Distribute any combination of X +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters among creatures on the battlefield.

Worldforger Titan 3WUBRG
Legendary Creature — Elemental Giant :mythic:
You may play an additional land on each one of your turns.
Landfall — Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may search your library for a creature and put it onto the battlefield tapped, then search your library for a land and add it to your hand. Shuffle your library afterward.
The first Titan, hand-forged by the Progenitor himself to do his work.
7/7

Corpse Pyre 1B/RB/RB/R
Sorcery :rare:
Target player exiles their graveyard. Corpse Pyre deals X damage divided among creatures that player controls, where X is equal to the number of creatures exiled this way.
Fire feeds off dead bodies the same as dead wood - ravenously.

Shadow of the Apocalypse W/BW/BWWBB
Sorcery :mythic:
All players exile all nonland permanents.
Don’t look, or never see again. The choice is yours.

Segnala, Bloodied Tigress 2RG/U
Planeswalker — Segnala :mythic:
Starting Loyalty: 4
+1: Segnala becomes a 2/3 Human Barbarian creature with double strike, haste and indestructible until end of turn. (She doesn’t lose loyalty while she’s not a planeswalker.)
-2: Segnala deals 2 damage to target creature without flying. Create a 1/1 red Human creature token with haste,
-6: You get an emblem with “Creatures you control gain +X/+X when attacking, where X is equal to the number of creatures you control.”

Yawning Gateway 7
Legendary Artifact :mythic:
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a nonland nontoken permanent not named Yawning Gateway. Put a permanent onto the battlefield with the same colors and/or converted mana cost from your hand or library onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library.
“Its construction is like that of the Beacon, but its purpose seems far less benign.” — Journal kept by a Decalost excavator

Gaping Passage 5
Legendary Artifact :mythic:
When Gaping Passage enters the battlefield, exile a creature you control.
Each turn, at the beginning of your upkeep, search your library for a nonartifact card that shares all of the exiled creature’s colors, reveal it, and add it to your hand.
With each new offering, it grants gifts in kind — death for death, life for life, blood for blood.

Arboraceous Islet (cycle for all ten two-colors)
Land — Forest Island :uncommon:
Arboraceous Islet enters the battlefield tapped unless you exile a nonland card from your graveyard.
T: Add G or U to your mana pool.

Atlaj Wilds (cycle)
Land :common:
T: Add G to your mana pool.
When Atlaj Wilds enters the battlefield, if you control no other lands, search your library for a Forest card, reveal it, and add it to your hand.

Bedrock of Jexalis
Legendary Land :mythic:
T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
During your untap step, you may leave Bedrock of Jexalis tapped. If you do, at the beginning of your upkeep, search your library for a nonbasic land card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterward.

Dolrathi Beacon
Legendary Land — Locus :mythic:
T: Add C to your mana pool.
WUBRG, T: Search your library for a card with a converted cost equal to or less than your greatest devotion to any two colors. (Each symbol of either of the chosen colors in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to those colors.)

Expanding Horizons
Land :mythic:
Whenever a basic land enters the battlefield under your control, put a horizon counter on Expanding Horizons.
1, T, Remove a horizon counter from Expanding Horizons: Create a Breach land token with “T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.”

Kindled Thicket (another ten-card cycle)
Land :common:
When Kindled Thicket enters the battlefield, target creature you control becomes red or green in addition to its other colors until end of turn.
Kindled Thicket enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add R or G to your mana pool.

Ruins of Ar-Haelis
Legendary Land :rare:
T: Add C to your mana pool.
4, T: Search your library for a card and add it to your hand. Ruins of Ar-Haelis cannot be untapped this turn.
“This was once our city; Beterra has forgotten this. We must remind them.” - Elric Avanol, during the Scarring Days

Shores of the Sea
Land :rare:
When Shores of the Sea enters the battlefield, sacrifice a land.
T: Add CC to your mana pool.
WUBRG, T, Sacrifice Shores of the Sea: Search your library for a card named Worldforger Titan and add it to your hand.
“He is coming, make no mistake. The Worldforger approaches...” — Prophecy of Ark-Silenzi

Warping Fields
Land :uncommon:
Protean (Whenever you cast a monocolored spell, this permanent becomes that color in addition to its other colors until end of turn.)
T: Add C to your mana pool.
T: Add one mana of any of Warping Fields’s colors to your mana pool.

Wild Tangle (ten-card cycle)
Land :rare:
Wild Tangle enters the battlefield unless you control at least two lands in any combination of Mountain, Forest, and/or Plains.
T: Add G, R, or W to your mana pool.
Where chaos and peace are bound by sanctity.

Carl

2017-07-04, 12:21 AM

Thoughttaker 1BB
Creature - Specter
Flying
When Thoughttaker deals combat damage to a player, that player gets an emblem with "Your maximum hand size is reduced by 2".
2/3

Wizards doesn't do non-planeswalker emblems, etc.

As you may have noticed allready i'm not exactly the best at judging cards but this one does raise a bit of a flag. The main issue i see is the stackability more than anything else. on it's own it's not too bad, but if this thing gets to take a few swings it could get really bad.

Illicit Herbalist GB
Creature - Human Shaman
Deathtouch
Creatures with deathtouch deal damage to creatures you control as though they did not have deathtouch.
"Which do you think is more expensive, my poisons or their antidotes?"
1/2

This is one where exactly how much deathtouch is around will play a big factor in how balanced it is, whilst deathtouch is an evergreen that doesn't mean it's everywhere ofc, but if it was part of a set where deathtouch was more common than usual it could get nasty.

JBPuffin

2017-07-04, 12:35 AM

As you may have noticed allready i'm not exactly the best at judging cards but this one does raise a bit of a flag. The main issue i see is the stackability more than anything else. on it's own it's not too bad, but if this thing gets to take a few swings it could get really bad.

This is one where exactly how much deathtouch is around will play a big factor in how balanced it is, whilst deathtouch is an evergreen that doesn't mean it's everywhere ofc, but if it was part of a set where deathtouch was more common than usual it could get nasty.

Haphazard guessing, but I think the latter gets by as an uncommon while the former ought to be at least a rare. If it were legendary as well or in a Commander-only set, it might be less disruptive.

Amechra

2017-07-04, 12:45 AM

I could see:

T1: Dryad's Arbor
T2: Plains, enchant Dryad's Arbor with Gaea's Vigor.

Now you have a 3/3 with Vigilance that can be tapped for GG by turn 3.

Some land-based card ideas:

1. Lands with Landfall. You could retemplate River of Tears as something like:

River of Tears
Land - Island
Landfall: River of Tears is a Swamp.

(It's a little stronger, since you can tutor for it a bit more easily).

2. Legendary lands with Grandeur. It might be neat to do it as basic landcycling plus an extra - so (for example) the "red" land might let you discard it to ping something and then would replace itself with a Mountain.

3. A cycle with an appropriate Landhome (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Landhome) ability and allied Landwalk. So you'd have something with Mountainhome, Forestwalk, and Swampwalk. They'd probably be pretty beefy, and would show up in a Color Matters/Multicolored set.

4. A Kaldra equivalent that's made up of lands (including the "spend 1 for a REALLY beefy critter" aspect). For that matter, I'd love to see a Kaldra equivalent where you need to assemble one of each type of permanent (the creature would flip into the planeswalker for maximum coolness).

5. A cycle of lands that become land creatures if you have three or more specific basic lands out. You'd need to tweak the numbers to make it fair, though.

6. A cycle of colored lands.

7. Lands with mechanics you'd normally associate with other permanents, like Madness or Suspend.

8. A land like:

Tired Land
Land
T: Add C to your mana pool.
T, exert Tired Land: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

Carl

2017-07-04, 12:56 AM

Mystifying Hourglass 3
Artifact :uncommon:
3, Put a card an opponent owns from exile into their graveyard: Return target nonland permanent to its owner’s hand.
When an opponent controls no nonland permanents, flip Mystifying Hourglass.
---Flip---
Time Twister
Whenever Time Twister deals combat damage to a creature, exile that creature at the end of combat.
4/4

Not sure how the second part of the hourglass side's 3 mana ability is supposed to be read, is it you return one o f the permanents the opponent controls to their hand, or any permanent belonging to anyone.

Traitor’s Shape 4
Enchantment — Aura :rare:
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature cannot attack you, block creatures you control, or activate abilities that affect you or creatures you control. (This includes effects that do not target.)
“He’s a prisoner of his own betrayal. There’s no worse punishment than that.”

This is basically a colourless form of a white card i've run into a few times, (name escapes me at the moment), and has the limit that it only limits them vs you.

Eternal Struggle 1WW
Enchantment — Aura :mythic:
Enchant you and another player
Enchanted players can only target and be targeted by spells, permanents and abilities enchanted players control.

I get the feeling a few of these might be multiplayer centric. This one certainly is, i'm not entirely sure how valuable it is though....

Fly the Banners 2W
Sorcery :uncommon:
Prism — Create a 1/1 white Human Soldier creature token for each color among permanents you control.

I could swear theres a card that allready does this or somthing very similar.

The Lampstand 2WW
Legendary Artifact — Fortification :rare:
Fortify 3W (3W: Attach to target land you control. Fortify only as a sorcery. This card enters the battlefield unattached and stays on the battlefield if the land leaves.)
Whenever you tap fortified land, add X white mana to your mana pool, where X is equal to your devotion to white. (Each W in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to white.)

As has been pointed out elsewhere straight mana ramp is a green thing, with black as the tertiary, this really feels non-fitting as a white card, assuming ofc it's not part of a set with mana ramp as a theme.

Aerie Eagle U (five-card cycle, 1 per color)
Creature — Bird :common:
At the beginning of your end step, if Aerie Eagle died this turn, you may return it from your graveyard to the battlefield transformed and attached to target creature.
A messenger of things to come.
1/1
---Flip---
Tailwind
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and can’t be blocked by creatures with converted mana cost 3 or greater.
A breeze at your back to aid your attack.

The first card with two sides referred to accessing the other side as flipping the card, here you say transform, keep it consistent. I'm not quite sure how a tailwind helps vs higher mana cost creatures though the effect is blue, it just doesn't seem to fit the background you've gone for.

Balanced Reaction U
Instant :uncommon:
Counter target activated ability. (Mana abilities can’t be targeted.)
Scry 1.

Interesting, i like assuming it doesn't produce any weird interactions. Being from a duels background is what is an activated background sufficiently clearly defined in the rules?

Bearer of the Diamond 1UU
Creature — Human Shaman :common:
When Bearer of the Diamond enters the battlefield, look at the bottom two cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the other on the top of your library.
Some treasures are worth more any price.
1/2

Interesting that your going for the bottom of your deck, (a concept i'm pla

Ghostthought 3U
Instant :common:
Ghostthought is colorless.
Put the bottom two cards of your library into your hand.

See above really.

Scour From Memory 1(H/U)U
Instant :uncommon:
Return target permanent to its owner’s hand.
Madness 1(H/U) (If you discard this card, you may cast it for its madness cost instead of putting it into your graveyard.)
“Are you sure it was there to begin with?”

Another typical blue effect done in an odd way. madness could certainly be an interesting set mechanic too.

Gorche, Scourge of Order 3RR
Planeswalker — Gorche :mythic:
Starting Loyalty: 4
+1: Flip a coin. If heads, Gorche deals 2 damage to target player. If tails, discard a card, then draw a card.
-2: Discard any number of cards at random from your hand, then draw that many cards.
-7: You gain an emblem with, “At the beginning of your upkeep, roll a six-sided die. This emblem deals that much damage to each creature you don’t control.”

Not really any good at judging planeswalkers, like at all, but this is a pure random type timmy card.

Kazal, Frostbitten Berserker R
Legendary Creature — Human Berserker :rare:
Haste, prowess
2(W/U)(W/U): The next time you cast an instant or sorcery spell, tap up to X creatures, where X is equal to the converted mana cost of that spell.
1/1

Interesting, weak on his own, but start throwing spells around willy nilly and he gets, well, interesting.

Armada Mists 1G
Instant :common:
Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.
Formidable — If creatures you control have total power of 8 or greater, instead prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn by creatures your opponents control.

"has" not "have", sorry grammar nazi moment i know, pot calling kettle black, e.t.c. Maybe should be 2G, did a quick search on an instinct and clinging mists comes of very similar, prevent all damage with a conditional rider.

Bloommaw Devourer 3GG
Creature — Plant Beast :rare:
When Bloommaw Devourer enters the battlefield, create three 1/1 green Saproling tokens.
T, Sacrifice a creature: Proliferate. (You choose any number of permanents and/or players with counters on them, then give each another counter of a kind already there.)
5/5

hmm, seems ok though i'm not the best to comment on costs unless my instincts point me at a very similar card.

Fruit of Diversity 1G
Instant :common:
Add G to your mana pool for each permanent type among permanents you control (The permanent types are artifact, creature, enchantment, land, and planeswalker.)

Green mana ramp is generally permanent, red with black as a tertiary is the burst type. But interesting way of doing it otherwise.

Tribal Instinct 1RG
Instant :uncommon:
Each creature with changeling you control loses changeling until end of turn.
Attacking creatures have trample and get +1/+1 for each creature type they share with other creatures you control.

Unless put in a set with a lot of changeling creatures the first rule is probably unnecessary.

Failed Experiment UURR
Instant :uncommon:
Counter target spell. Failed Experiment deals X damage to that spell’s controller, where X is equal to the spell’s converted mana cost.

I assume you mean the countered spells CMC yes?.

Transmute Force GU
Sorcery :uncommon:
Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player this turn, add C to your mana pool.
Draw a card.

Again since it's short term amana ramp it's more red than green. Also my gut is saying this may be too cheap but i can;t think of any similar cards to run off and check on.

Arcane Edifice WUBRG (made a cycle of level-up shrines)
Legendary Enchantment — Shrine :rare:
Level up 2 (2: Put a level counter on this. Level up only as a sorcery.))
[LEVEL 0-3]: T: Add one mana to your mana pool of any color a land you control you produce for each Shrine you control.)
[LEVEL 4+]: T: Add two mana to your mana pool of any color a land you control you produce for each Shrine you control.)

I think you mean "of any mana that is of a colour shared with a land you control". I'm not clear btw, does this cost 1 of each colour, or just one of a specific color and there's 5 versions, 1 of each colour? If the latter this looks potentially very powerful indeed, th i'm not familiar with the power curve on leveled cards.

Crumbling Reality WUBRG
Enchantment :mythic:
Crumbling Reality cannot be sacrificed.
At the beginning of your upkeep, each player sacrifices a permanent of each type they control.

Again i'm not the best at judging costs but this looks really overpriced since it hits everyone equally.

Harvest of the Faithful XWWBBG
Instant :mythic:
Convoke (Your creatures can help cast this spell. Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for 1 or one mana of that creature’s color.)
Distribute any combination of X +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters among creatures on the battlefield.

I'd be tempted to drop the green as unnecessarily punitive. Otherwise dosen;t raise any flags.

Worldforger Titan 3WUBRG
Legendary Creature — Elemental Giant :mythic:
You may play an additional land on each one of your turns.
Landfall — Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may search your library for a creature and put it onto the battlefield tapped, then search your library for a land and add it to your hand. Shuffle your library afterward.
The first Titan, hand-forged by the Progenitor himself to do his work.
7/7

Yikes thats some serious ramp, but also a serious cost, so eh.

i'll try to get to the rest after i've got some sleep.

solidork

2017-07-04, 12:35 PM

AQMy comments are in green.

I actually have a bunch of cards (like two and a half sets, plus some I made as challenges to myself) from back when I played Magic and designed cards. Every now and again, I'll get an idea I just have to write down - here are some of the things I came up with.

(C=Waste Colorless, H=Phyrexian)

Eternal Struggle 1WW
Enchantment — Aura :mythic:
Enchant you and another player
Enchanted players can only target and be targeted by spells, permanents and abilities enchanted players control.

Right now you can technically enchant your teammate, which is a flavor fail at the very least.

Fly the Banners 2W
Sorcery :uncommon:
Prism — Create a 1/1 white Human Soldier creature token for each color among permanents you control.

This doesn't do anything if you don't control any permanents, which is a problem. Getting a 1/1 and then one for each color (so you at least get 2) would be fine even for an uncommon imo.

The Lampstand 2WW
Legendary Artifact — Fortification :rare:
Fortify 3W (3W: Attach to target land you control. Fortify only as a sorcery. This card enters the battlefield unattached and stays on the battlefield if the land leaves.)
Whenever you tap fortified land, add X white mana to your mana pool, where X is equal to your devotion to white. (Each W in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to white.)

I'd specify that you get the mana when you tap the land for mana. Someone with better rules knowledge than I; if you cast Twiddle to tap a tapped land fortified by this, would mana be produced?

Balanced Reaction
Instant :uncommon:
Counter target activated ability. (Mana abilities can’t be targeted.)
Scry 1.

*squints* ... I'll allow it. I don't think Modern would appreciate it though. :D

Kazal, Frostbitten Berserker R
Legendary Creature — Human Berserker :rare:
Haste, prowess
2(W/U)(W/U): The next time you cast an instant or sorcery spell, tap up to X creatures, where X is equal to the converted mana cost of that spell.
1/1

Monastery Swiftspear proves that you don't even really need the second ability to be playable, but I'm not a huge fan of the current pricing. Unless... did you deliberately leave out "this turn" from the ability? Thats more interesting, but I don't think they would word it this way.

Armada Mists 1G
Instant :common:
Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.
Formidable — If creatures you control have total power of 8 or greater, instead prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn by creatures your opponents control.

I like this!

Tribal Instinct 1RG
Instant :uncommon:
Each creature with changeling you control loses changeling until end of turn.
Attacking creatures have trample and get +1/+1 for each creature type they share with other creatures you control.

The way I've handled avoiding Changeling without directly referencing it was something like this:

"Scry X, where X is the number of creature types among non-Shapeshifter creatures you control."

Corpse Pyre 1B/RB/RB/R
Sorcery :rare:
Target player exiles their graveyard. Corpse Pyre deals X damage divided among creatures that player controls, where X is equal to the number of creatures exiled this way.
Fire feeds off dead bodies the same as dead wood - ravenously.

This actually seems pretty weak. Part of me says to have it deal damage equal to the power of the exiled creatures.

Ruins of Ar-Haelis
Legendary Land :rare:
T: Add C to your mana pool.
4, T: Search your library for a card and add it to your hand. Ruins of Ar-Haelis cannot be untapped this turn.
“This was once our city; Beterra has forgotten this. We must remind them.” - Elric Avanol, during the Scarring Days

This is completely bonkers. Ability should cost more and require a sacrifice. An interesting spin that plays up the "ruins" aspect is that it could search for cards that have the same name as cards in your graveyard.

Carl

2017-07-04, 01:20 PM

Corpse Pyre 1B/RB/RB/R
Sorcery :rare:
Target player exiles their graveyard. Corpse Pyre deals X damage divided among creatures that player controls, where X is equal to the number of creatures exiled this way.
Fire feeds off dead bodies the same as dead wood - ravenously.

My biggest beef here is the cost, the closest similar cards i could find either did less damage and had a conditional on the exile of the entire graveyard or exiled the entire graveyard at the same cost as this. need a much higher cost, i'd say at least 3BR(B/R)(B/R)

Shadow of the Apocalypse W/BW/BWWBB
Sorcery :mythic:
All players exile all nonland permanents.
Don’t look, or never see again. The choice is yours.

I'm not quite sure why this has blue in it. Blue dosen't do destruction period mechanically. ofc if it's part of a set where the theme would allow this, then maybe.

Segnala, Bloodied Tigress 2RG/U
Planeswalker — Segnala :mythic:
Starting Loyalty: 4
+1: Segnala becomes a 2/3 Human Barbarian creature with double strike, haste and indestructible until end of turn. (She doesn’t lose loyalty while she’s not a planeswalker.)
-2: Segnala deals 2 damage to target creature without flying. Create a 1/1 red Human creature token with haste,
-6: You get an emblem with “Creatures you control gain +X/+X when attacking, where X is equal to the number of creatures you control.”

I don't quite get where the blue comes from on this one, but eh, planeswalker, lore is likely a factor there.

Yawning Gateway 7
Legendary Artifact :mythic:
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a nonland nontoken permanent not named Yawning Gateway. Put a permanent onto the battlefield with the same colors and/or converted mana cost from your hand or library onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library.
“Its construction is like that of the Beacon, but its purpose seems far less benign.” — Journal kept by a Decalost excavator

So a super tutor, ok.

Gaping Passage 5
Legendary Artifact :mythic:
When Gaping Passage enters the battlefield, exile a creature you control.
Each turn, at the beginning of your upkeep, search your library for a nonartifact card that shares all of the exiled creature’s colors, reveal it, and add it to your hand.
With each new offering, it grants gifts in kind — death for death, life for life, blood for blood.

Interesting, not sure how good it is as whilst it gives you a lot of draw control you still need a fair bit of mana to get any real power out of it.

Arboraceous Islet (cycle for all ten two-colors)
Land — Forest Island :uncommon:
Arboraceous Islet enters the battlefield tapped unless you exile a nonland card from your graveyard.
T: Add G or U to your mana pool.

Another dual land, fair enough.

Atlaj Wilds (cycle)
Land :common:
T: Add G to your mana pool.
When Atlaj Wilds enters the battlefield, if you control no other lands, search your library for a Forest card, reveal it, and add it to your hand.

Heh, interesting.

Bedrock of Jexalis
Legendary Land :mythic:
T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
During your untap step, you may leave Bedrock of Jexalis tapped. If you do, at the beginning of your upkeep, search your library for a nonbasic land card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterward.

Nonbasic land search unusual, but cool.

Dolrathi Beacon
Legendary Land — Locus :mythic:
T: Add C to your mana pool.
WUBRG, T: Search your library for a card with a converted cost equal to or less than your greatest devotion to any two colors. (Each symbol of either of the chosen colors in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to those colors.)

Unless your trying to pull progenitus or one of the big Eldrazi this seems severely overcosted. You also don't state what happens to the card you search for, does it go to hand or battlefield as that also makes a big difference. That kind of costs to put it on the battlefield is, interesting, but probably overpriced on way too many things.

Expanding Horizons
Land :mythic:
Whenever a basic land enters the battlefield under your control, put a horizon counter on Expanding Horizons.
1, T, Remove a horizon counter from Expanding Horizons: Create a Breach land token with “T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.”

Heh, landplay. Not sure about the power level, you also don't state it's colour so it's not clear what types of mana it can be tapped for.

Kindled Thicket (another ten-card cycle)
Land :common:
When Kindled Thicket enters the battlefield, target creature you control becomes red or green in addition to its other colors until end of turn.
Kindled Thicket enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add R or G to your mana pool.

Interesting, though not sure how useful it is.

Ruins of Ar-Haelis
Legendary Land :rare:
T: Add C to your mana pool.
4, T: Search your library for a card and add it to your hand. Ruins of Ar-Haelis cannot be untapped this turn.
“This was once our city; Beterra has forgotten this. We must remind them.” - Elric Avanol, during the Scarring Days

I'm not sure the latter is especially needed, there's not a lot of ways to untap lands on the same turn they tap generally. Ofc if part of a set with a few of that...

Shores of the Sea
Land :rare:
When Shores of the Sea enters the battlefield, sacrifice a land.
T: Add CC to your mana pool.
WUBRG, T, Sacrifice Shores of the Sea: Search your library for a card named Worldforger Titan and add it to your hand.
“He is coming, make no mistake. The Worldforger approaches...” — Prophecy of Ark-Silenzi

Nice interaction.

Warping Fields
Land :uncommon:
Protean (Whenever you cast a monocolored spell, this permanent becomes that color in addition to its other colors until end of turn.)
T: Add C to your mana pool.
T: Add one mana of any of Warping Fields’s colors to your mana pool.

Ok, i get the feeling you like lands btw.

Wild Tangle (ten-card cycle)
Land :rare:
Wild Tangle enters the battlefield unless you control at least two lands in any combination of Mountain, Forest, and/or Plains.
T: Add G, R, or W to your mana pool.
Where chaos and peace are bound by sanctity.

I assume thats supposed to be "Enters the battlefield tapped unless..."

JBPuffin

2017-07-04, 01:57 PM

I'm not quite sure why this has blue in it. Blue dosen't do destruction period mechanically. ofc if it's part of a set where the theme would allow this, then maybe.

U is blue, B is black. It's a Black/White board wipe.

I don't quite get where the blue comes from on this one, but eh, planeswalker, lore is likely a factor there.

Fair point - I need something more blue in there for her. Originally made her for a forum game where her multiple colors mattered, and I do want to keep that blue...

So a super tutor, ok.

Yeah, late-game easy to target tutoring. Easy enough to work around, I think.

Interesting, not sure how good it is as whilst it gives you a lot of draw control you still need a fair bit of mana to get any real power out of it.

Someone will find a purpose, but it's not the easiest to use.

Another dual land, fair enough.

I think if they ever get around to more of these, this is a pretty likely one.

Heh, interesting.
Nonbasic land search unusual, but cool.

Land matters!

Unless your trying to pull progenitus or one of the big Eldrazi this seems severely overcosted. You also don't state what happens to the card you search for, does it go to hand or battlefield as that also makes a big difference. That kind of costs to put it on the battlefield is, interesting, but probably overpriced on way too many things.

Note: It does say card, not creature. I think it's supposed to be hand? It's what it'll be now.

Heh, landplay. Not sure about the power level, you also don't state it's colour so it's not clear what types of mana it can be tapped for.

Expanding Horizons actually doesn't tap for mana; it taps for land tokens. Landfall triggers to pump it up.

Interesting, though not sure how useful it is.

Color matters with Protean and Prism; came from the set they were designed in.

I'm not sure the latter is especially needed, there's not a lot of ways to untap lands on the same turn they tap generally. Ofc if part of a set with a few of that...

I don't want people just tutoring every dead turn in every deck. Control doesn't need more help on that front >.>.

Nice interaction.

Thanks. Just realized I should post the Worldforger...

Ok, i get the feeling you like lands btw.
Partially because they're so important, partially because I was making multicolor-heavy/lands matter sets and needed support for those things.

I assume thats supposed to be "Enters the battlefield tapped unless..."
Bingo - I guess that one of the cycle doesn't have its full text. I'll have to fix that.

I can't quote-copy solidork's comments, sadly, but I'll respond.

Right now you can technically enchant your teammate, which is a flavor fail at the very least.
*facepalm* I'll fix that in post. Wow...

This doesn't do anything if you don't control any permanents, which is a problem. Getting a 1/1 and then one for each color (so you at least get 2) would be fine even for an uncommon imo.
I didn't even consider that. Alright, that works for me.

I'd specify that you get the mana when you tap the land for mana. Someone with better rules knowledge than I; if you cast Twiddle to tap a tapped land fortified by this, would mana be produced?
Huh. Yeah, I'll do that - didn't even think of that.

*squints* ... I'll allow it. I don't think Modern would appreciate it though. :D
yeah...*twitch**twitch* Sucks that it has to be blue though - that color already has so much going on.

Monastery Swiftspear proves that you don't even really need the second ability to be playable, but I'm not a huge fan of the current pricing. Unless... did you deliberately leave out "this turn" from the ability? Thats more interesting, but I don't think they would word it this way.
I think I'll bump the cost - now that I see it, I don't quite like it either. How would they word if, since the absence of "this turn" is something I like. Would it make an emblem or something?

EDIT: Oh yeah - Swiftspear's a 1/2, this is a 1/1. That's why he only costed R. I'll still make it 1R, though.

I like this!
I remember having the Ferocious version and thinking, "Why couldn't they make one for Formidable instead?"

The way I've handled avoiding Changeling without directly referencing it was something like this:
"Scry X, where X is the number of creature types among non-Shapeshifter creatures you control."
I wanted to get rid of the major problem without corollary issues - if you have a Shapeshifter Rogue, I want it to get that plus from rogue. Plus, if I have a bunch of changelings (all shapeshifters and hence a tribe of sorts), I still want it to be usable - just not busted.

This actually seems pretty weak. Part of me says to have it deal damage equal to the power of the exiled creatures.

My biggest beef here is the cost, the closest similar cards i could find either did less damage and had a conditional on the exile of the entire graveyard or exiled the entire graveyard at the same cost as this. need a much higher cost, i'd say at least 3BR(B/R)(B/R)

Now that I have both sides...I think I'll leave it. It's great in certain matchups, but not always that useful.

This is completely bonkers. Ability should cost more and require a sacrifice. An interesting spin that plays up the "ruins" aspect is that it could search for cards that have the same name as cards in your graveyard.
Ohmigod, that's hilarious and I love it. I'll make that change and get rid of the non-untap clause.

Silfir

2017-07-04, 01:58 PM

I'd specify that you get the mana when you tap the land for mana. Someone with better rules knowledge than I; if you cast Twiddle to tap a tapped land fortified by this, would mana be produced?

I'd say no, because it's not "you" who's tapping it; Twiddle is.

Shadow of the Apocalypse W/BW/BWWBB
Sorcery :mythic:
All players exile all nonland permanents.
Don’t look, or never see again. The choice is yours.

I'm not quite sure why this has blue in it. Blue dosen't do destruction period mechanically. ofc if it's part of a set where the theme would allow this, then maybe.

B stands for Black. Blue is U.

The "All players" bit I think is improper templating; the card can just say "Exile all nonland permanents."

My only issue with this card is that I don't see where the Black comes in. White can do the sweeping on its own - see Planar Cleansing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370808) - and doesn't need Black to add exiling to the effect.

Bedrock of Jexalis
Legendary Land :mythic:
T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
During your untap step, you may leave Bedrock of Jexalis tapped. If you do, at the beginning of your upkeep, search your library for a nonbasic land card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterward.

I think that an untapped unconditional tap-for-any-color that tutors for lands - nonbasic or basic - needs a bit more than be Legendary to be balanced.

Carl

2017-07-04, 02:01 PM

B stands for Black. Blue is U.

I swear i'm still half asleep ughh. Sorry.

JBPuffin

2017-07-04, 02:20 PM

The "All players" bit I think is improper templating; the card can just say "Exile all nonland permanents."

I was trying to dodge things which say they can't be exiled by card effects, kind of like a sacrifice thing? I can just change that though.

My only issue with this card is that I don't see where the Black comes in. White can do the sweeping on its own - see Planar Cleansing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370808) - and doesn't need Black to add exiling to the effect.

Good points. I wanted black/white decks to be able to get it out without worrying as much about their white vs black density - can I just make it (W/B)(W/B)(W/B)(W/B)(W/B)(W/B) so both colors can use it, or do 4(W/B)(W/B)(W/B)? I want both board wipe colors to have access.

I think that an untapped unconditional tap-for-any-color that tutors for lands - nonbasic or basic - needs a bit more than be Legendary to be balanced.
I think it was supposed to enter tapped - that's what it'll do now.

Silfir

2017-07-04, 02:56 PM

Good points. I wanted black/white decks to be able to get it out without worrying as much about their white vs black density - can I just make it (W/B)(W/B)(W/B)(W/B)(W/B)(W/B) so both colors can use it, or do 4(W/B)(W/B)(W/B)? I want both board wipe colors to have access.

Here's the thing, though: Black can't do this effect at all. It's a mono-White effect - Planar Cleansing is the best evidence for that. Per the color pie, Black doesn't get artifact or enchantment removal, whereas White can remove anything, even exile anything, especially if it does so for all players instead of just one. Making it cost W/B six times is worse still since it would turn it completely into a mono-black-playable card. It *has* to require White mana to fit into the color pie. Preferably at least two pure white mana symbols.

If you want to add Black to the cost of an exiling Planar Cleansing (which might be fair at six mana, not sure), give the card an effect that is Black - similar to how you can replace 1 by U on a Day of Judgment (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220139) to make it uncounterable (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253512). Life drain is a possibility.

I think it was supposed to enter tapped - that's what it'll do now.

Don't think that'll do it. Entering untapped and tapping for any color without restriction or drawback wasn't even the most broken part about it - the free repeatable land tutoring is worse.

Carl

2017-07-04, 03:01 PM

Silfir

2017-07-04, 03:11 PM

Also black is selective, (hits opponents only), not uniform. Check this article for what goes whee, i'm still learning to keep track of everything listed there but it helps.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2017-2017-06-05

Yeah, there's certainly truth to that - Black takes what it wants and doesn't care about fairness.

Though it needs to be said that Black is still at least secondary for symmetrical board wipes, they just tend to be -X/-X now. Languish (http://magiccards.info/c16/en/114.html), Yahenni's Expertise (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Yahenni%27s+Expertise&v=card&s=cname) - as recently as Amonkhet there is Rags (from Rags // Riches (http://magiccards.info/akh/en/222b.html)).

As far as "Destroy all creatures" effects go - there is even one in the set that pre-releases this weekend. It's listed as secondary, which means it's perfectly possible, it just won't happen every set, and on higher rarities than primary effects would go. (Though board wipes are at least Rare on principle anyway.)

The point to take away is that Black is very good at killing creatures, and while it doesn't care about fairness, it also doesn't care about sacrificing its own forces as long as it suits their plans. Hence a "kill everyone" effect suits Black just fine in principle.

JBPuffin

2017-07-04, 04:29 PM

Here's the thing, though: Black can't do this effect at all. It's a mono-White effect - Planar Cleansing is the best evidence for that. Per the color pie, Black doesn't get artifact or enchantment removal, whereas White can remove anything, even exile anything, especially if it does so for all players instead of just one. Making it cost W/B six times is worse still since it would turn it completely into a mono-black-playable card. It *has* to require White mana to fit into the color pie. Preferably at least two pure white mana symbols.

If you want to add Black to the cost of an exiling Planar Cleansing (which might be fair at six mana, not sure), give the card an effect that is Black - similar to how you can replace 1 by U on a Day of Judgment (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220139) to make it uncounterable (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253512). Life drain is a possibility.

Hmm, fair enough...what would be a fair cost for a normal boardwipe which exiles the graveyard afterward? Like, CC 7?

Don't think that'll do it. Entering untapped and tapping for any color without restriction or drawback wasn't even the most broken part about it - the free repeatable land tutoring is worse.

So if the tutoring had an additional cost, it'd be fine? I want there to be some sort of pseudo-accessible nonbasic tutoring on a land; if I have to gate it behind a mana cost, that's fine, but the idea is to provide landfall while limiting how often you actually get to tutor (since almost no deck in this collection [heck, it might be a Cube by now...] can afford to run only non-basics).

Also black is selective, (hits opponents only), not uniform. Check this article for what goes whee, i'm still learning to keep track of everything listed there but it helps.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2017-2017-06-05

Also this looks like it will come in handy quite a bit...:smallwink:

Silfir

2017-07-04, 06:25 PM

So if the tutoring had an additional cost, it'd be fine? I want there to be some sort of pseudo-accessible nonbasic tutoring on a land; if I have to gate it behind a mana cost, that's fine, but the idea is to provide landfall while limiting how often you actually get to tutor (since almost no deck in this collection [heck, it might be a Cube by now...] can afford to run only non-basics)

If the card is intended just to be played within your own block, it's not quite as horribly broken - I was thinking about the landslides of breakable non-basic lands of Magic's history.

If you want to keep it colorless, you can use Expedition Map or Journeyer's Kite (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=79233) for orientation, but keep in mind those are artifacts whose entire purpose is fetching lands, and Expedition Map sacrifices itself to serve the cause while Journeyer's Kite fetches only basics for 3 generic mana a pop. You've stapled this ability to a five-color land with only the tap drawback, which would border on too good even if it had no other text on it.

The closest thing to repeatable non-basic land tutoring I've found is Knight of the Reliquary (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370379), which has to sacrifice Forests or Plains to do it.

Since you said the card is intended to help fuel landfall, consider adding the sacrifice of a land to the cost. That way, it's not card advantage, but will trigger landfall just fine. So, say:

Bedrock of Jexalis
Legendary Land
Bedrock of Jexalis enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
Sacrifice a land, 1, T: Search your library for a land card and put it in your hand. Shuffle your library. Activate this ability only during your upkeep.

Hmm, fair enough...what would be a fair cost for a normal boardwipe which exiles the graveyard afterward? Like, CC 7?

"Normal" as in, only gets creatures? You could probably have that for CMC 5, if you follow current design principles, which stipulate that Wraths ("Destroy all creatures") should be at least 5 CMC. (Or have additional costs.) A 5 mana Wrath in two colors (2WWB) with that bonus attached to it will likely work quite well.

If it's still intended to get all nonland permanents, I think CMC 6 is okay, actually. Costed 3WWB?

JBPuffin

2017-07-05, 12:17 AM

If the card is intended just to be played within your own block, it's not quite as horribly broken - I was thinking about the landslides of breakable non-basic lands of Magic's history.

If you want to keep it colorless, you can use Expedition Map or Journeyer's Kite (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=79233) for orientation, but keep in mind those are artifacts whose entire purpose is fetching lands, and Expedition Map sacrifices itself to serve the cause while Journeyer's Kite fetches only basics for 3 generic mana a pop. You've stapled this ability to a five-color land with only the tap drawback, which would border on too good even if it had no other text on it.

The closest thing to repeatable non-basic land tutoring I've found is Knight of the Reliquary (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370379), which has to sacrifice Forests or Plains to do it.

Since you said the card is intended to help fuel landfall, consider adding the sacrifice of a land to the cost. That way, it's not card advantage, but will trigger landfall just fine. So, say:

Bedrock of Jexalis
Legendary Land
Bedrock of Jexalis enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
Sacrifice a land, 1, T: Search your library for a land card and put it in your hand. Shuffle your library. Activate this ability only during your upkeep.

That works.

"Normal" as in, only gets creatures? You could probably have that for CMC 5, if you follow current design principles, which stipulate that Wraths ("Destroy all creatures") should be at least 5 CMC. (Or have additional costs.) A 5 mana Wrath in two colors (2WWB) with that bonus attached to it will likely work quite well.

If it's still intended to get all nonland permanents, I think CMC 6 is okay, actually. Costed 3WWB?

Perfect!

Carl

2017-07-05, 01:01 AM

Yeah, there's certainly truth to that - Black takes what it wants and doesn't care about fairness.

Though it needs to be said that Black is still at least secondary for symmetrical board wipes, they just tend to be -X/-X now. Languish (http://magiccards.info/c16/en/114.html), Yahenni's Expertise (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Yahenni%27s+Expertise&v=card&s=cname) - as recently as Amonkhet there is Rags (from Rags // Riches (http://magiccards.info/akh/en/222b.html)).

As far as "Destroy all creatures" effects go - there is even one in the set that pre-releases this weekend. It's listed as secondary, which means it's perfectly possible, it just won't happen every set, and on higher rarities than primary effects would go. (Though board wipes are at least Rare on principle anyway.)

The point to take away is that Black is very good at killing creatures, and while it doesn't care about fairness, it also doesn't care about sacrificing its own forces as long as it suits their plans. Hence a "kill everyone" effect suits Black just fine in principle.

Note -1/-1 effects, are seperate things from destroy as far as getting it goes and what if any rider effects are common to each colour.

Hmm, fair enough...what would be a fair cost for a normal boardwipe which exiles the graveyard afterward? Like, CC 7?

So if the tutoring had an additional cost, it'd be fine? I want there to be some sort of pseudo-accessible nonbasic tutoring on a land; if I have to gate it behind a mana cost, that's fine, but the idea is to provide landfall while limiting how often you actually get to tutor (since almost no deck in this collection [heck, it might be a Cube by now...] can afford to run only non-basics).

Also this looks like it will come in handy quite a bit...:smallwink:

Yeah dead useful. So any comment either of you on my mechanics bit from upthread, i'll repost for clarity and because i want to make a minor edit/adittion.

First Mechanic:

Communal X: When a card with Communal enters the battlefield, you may gain life equal to the highest Communal value amongst others cards you control that are Permanents.

This represents the way the Mothers section of society provides virtually all the basic supplies, (food water, wood, stone, ores, if it's fished, farmed, hunted, mined, or is somthing collected from natural sources they're involved in some way), and also their role in providing healers, cooks, and certain other vital elements of a society in terms of basics of survival centered professions to the rest of elvish society. They're a very green white focused faction. Though the underlying motivation, (that they care about everyone), brings a certain amount of red in on some cards. and lore wise avoids the worst excesses. How much you give of yourself to the community is self determined and individual, the more you give the more important you are in the hierarchy, but there's no force pushing you to go up and no shame in staying on the lower rungs.

Notes: The main thing i'd say is that i'd expect the communal values to fall behind the CMC by at least 2-3. OFC green/white is a good combo for really big creatures with a high cost so that still allows a lot of lifegain. One of the key things to be wary of is overdoing the lifegain however, and to provide ways of working around it for each colour without directly subverting it.

Second Mechanic:

Enslaved: This is a new subtype e.g. "Creature - Enslaved Elf". Cards care about the presence of enslaved permanents and can gain bonuses or trigger effects based on their presence and/or numbers. Most forms of Enslaved will be 0/1 Enslaved Elf creatures tokens with "cannot attack, block, or deal damage; sacrifice this creature and prevent 1 damage that would be dealt to you" put into play by various means. Though at least two more serious capability cards will turn up that have the enslaved subtype.

Conceptually the faction this mechanic is focused on are pure dark hedonists. They're all about personal self fulfillment even at others expense, and a key part of that is their widespread practise of enslaving others. Though since the Elvish society in question has been isolated from non-elves until very recently they're 99.99% elves they enslave. They don't tend to produce a huge amount of goods or the like, but they are very good at many aspects related to warfare. But you'll also find spies, assassins and a number of other professions that aren't really in line with the other factions. They also contain the party planners though as an example of a much more benign aspect, in fact most of their contributions to the rest of society can be described as entertainment focused. It's one of the few but it does exist. For a long time much of that was of only theoretical use though a lot of it's become much more valuable recently. Colour wise they're black/red at heart, but a strong strand of white runs through due to the various rules and laws surrounding enslaving and several other activities. These exit to ensure that whilst elves can express their personal desires, to engage in blatant self gratification the section of society as a whole does not become outright self destructive.

Notes: this mechanic is a lot more flexible than Communal but it requires sources of enslaved. Thats tricky as i need to include enough cards to make it work but it takes design space away from others thing both on an overall scale, (cards dedicated to it rather than other things), and on a specific level, (cards with it as an add on effect displacing other options). A lot also depends on the kind of rider effects it gets. It's also awkward as a black/red mechanic. Black and Red can absolutely care about other cards but it's not a typical effect of theirs as such. Thats definitely a bit of somthing i don't like, but at the same time i rather like the core underlying concept, because enslaving and their fundamentally dark hedonism really are what defines the faction.

The final faction doesn't have a mechanic concept yet, i'm tossing ideas back and forth but in case anyone wants to suggest somthing i thought i'd throw basic conceptual stuff out.

Conceptually they're odd. Mostly because he, (the overarching god which each section has behind it), doesn't sit on the needs of the individual vs the needs of the individual vs the community scale. He's off on a whole other axis. He cares most about creativity.
Magic, Technology, Science, and Industry all fall under him. As do many arts and similar concepts. At the same time he doesn't have as much structure as either of the other two,. The first is all about structure whilst the second imposes it on a serious level as a counterbalance. With the other two taking the extreme on the personal vs group needs he ends up taking what amounts to a neutral position in matters, he doesn't explicitly push towards either. This coupled with where he does focus level little need for the strict structures of the other two and that largely leaves him as the most individualistic faction, the others advance by outcompeting, or by outright stepping on their rivals, whilst you can advance by being best at somthing with him, he's just as interested in new ways to use your talents and abilities as he is in being good at somthing. You're likely to find a lot of absentminded professors and the like in his faction and most technology comes from them, (in that vein you'll find engineers, architects, e.t.c with him too). At heart he's very blue focused, but that individualism and creativity bring a strong though different band of red to things. On a lesser secondary scale however that doesn't mean that his section of society can't stumble into black occasionally. Inevitably somtimes the line in the sand for morality can be very hard to see somtimes and many a well meaning individual has strayed in a direction that perhaps a bit far off the beaten path and black is the other individualistic colour. Still it tends to be be result of excess enthusiasm, leading to amorality rather than strict immorality.

Notes: I considered doing somthing with artifacts but thats a bit narrower in focus than i want to go, there certainly will be a few artifact creatures ofc, but i don't think i'll be going extreme on them.

solidork

2017-07-05, 09:49 AM

I can't quote-copy solidork's comments, sadly, but I'll respond.

Yeah, I think I won't be using that particular commenting style again.

I think I'll bump the cost - now that I see it, I don't quite like it either. How would they word if, since the absence of "this turn" is something I like. Would it make an emblem or something?

EDIT: Oh yeah - Swiftspear's a 1/2, this is a 1/1. That's why he only costed R. I'll still make it 1R, though.

I think the mana cost is fine. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was talking about the cost of the activated ability while also thinking that you were supposed to activate it the same turn as you cast the spell (like Soulfire Grandmaster). Now that I understand how it is supposed to work, I like it. If you want to make a concession to WOTCness, adding an explicit duration to how long the triggered ability will hang out invisibly in the void is probably the cleanest way to do it.

solidork

2017-07-05, 10:18 AM

Trial by Fire RW
Instant
Exile target creature. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step. If you do, Trial by Fire deals 2 damage to that creature.

Keeper of the Primal Order RG
Creature - Human Shaman
Bloodthirst - 1
Creatures can't leave the battlefield unless they die.(If an effect would cause a creature to be exiled, returned to a hand or placed into a library, that creature remains on the battlefield instead).
2/2

JBPuffin

2017-07-05, 08:12 PM

I think the mana cost is fine. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was talking about the cost of the activated ability while also thinking that you were supposed to activate it the same turn as you cast the spell (like Soulfire Grandmaster). Now that I understand how it is supposed to work, I like it. If you want to make a concession to WOTCness, adding an explicit duration to how long the triggered ability will hang out invisibly in the void is probably the cleanest way to do it.

Oh! Gotcha, yeah, I can do that. Beginning of next upkeep?

solidork

2017-07-06, 08:57 AM

Oh! Gotcha, yeah, I can do that. Beginning of next upkeep?

Until the end of your next turn seems fair, and it's been done on Commune with Lava. You'd usually activate the ability the turn before you want to tap things.

Carl

2017-07-07, 01:10 AM

Oh! Gotcha, yeah, I can do that. Beginning of next upkeep?

Sounds decent to me, TBH it did raise an eyebrow on my end too but i let it pass overall.

Trial by Fire RW
Instant
Exile target creature. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step. If you do, Trial by Fire deals 2 damage to that creature.

Keeper of the Primal Order RG
Creature - Human Shaman
Bloodthirst - 1
Creatures can't leave the battlefield unless they die.(If an effect would cause a creature to be exiled, returned to a hand or placed into a library, that creature remains on the battlefield instead).
2/2

First one dosen;t raise any flags, it's a dual mana spell and long road home is a pure white withe the same base effect but a different rider.

The second, thats a pretty powerful counter to blue white tricks, i'm not sure how expensive it should be or thats even red/green combo appropriate but it's raising flags in the back of my mind, not sure why.

Also going with a completely different enslave mechanic for review:

Enslaved is a type, (like creature/Enchantment/Land/Instant/e.t.c.).

Some cards have Master keyword. Master: You may attach Creatures with the Enslaved type to this card. Anytime this creature would be destroyed, if there is one or more attached cards with the Enslaved type you may sacrifice one and regenerate this creature. If you do so create a token that is a copy of the sacrificed creature but that lacks the Enslaved Type. Attached Creatures cannot attack or block but may activate abilities and tap as normal. Attach only anytime you could cast a sorcery.

Notes: This fits better thematically and is a lot simpler. Cards can then react based on having stuff attached or on being attached. And it works much better as a primarily black/red feature as you can expend the attached creatures for a benefit but it's got the nice white and thus theme appropriate element of not strictly graveyarding the sacrificed creature, rather it's freed, represented by getting a token back. It also works nicely in that since each enslaved can only be attached to one creature at once, it's a very all about me effect for each individual creature. You don't have the whole board getting benefits from just a few enslaved. Biggest complaint is the length of the basic rule text, it looks very awkward from the pov of fitting it on the card as reminder text.

Obviously Enslaved are only intended to show up as "Enslaved Creature" types, probably mostly 1/1's. Though again there's at least a couple i can think of that will be bigger and more special than that.

solidork

2017-07-07, 07:16 AM

The second, thats a pretty powerful counter to blue white tricks, i'm not sure how expensive it should be or thats even red/green combo appropriate but it's raising flags in the back of my mind, not sure why.

That's fair. I'm not sure if it even works. There is a good chance that there is something out there that would immediately force the game to end in a draw if combined with this.

Carl

2017-07-07, 08:59 AM

That's fair. I'm not sure if it even works. There is a good chance that there is something out there that would immediately force the game to end in a draw if combined with this.

Partial reply as gotta head out soon:

Oh it works and i'm not sure there's necessarily a way to cause this to go in circles though i'm a long way from an expert on that obviously. There are two problems for me.

A) this completely shuts down 100% of Blue creature removal and 50% or more of white's creature removal. That is very, very powerful and shouldn't come cheap. however that creates it's own issues as this is a 2/2 thats well inside easy direct damage or forced chump block territory, if it's cheap thats fine, if it's expensive not so much. Having a really impactful effect on a creature that is really weak tend to end up being a bit of a nightmare, it's so expensive it wants to be a game decider but so easy to remove it wants to be cheap to play.

B) I'm not sure what colours blocking these kind of effects is actually most associated with, so i'm not sure what exactly how colour appropriate it is. And even assuming it is colour appropriate, do R/G combined decks necessarily need this kind of a buff/help?

solidork

2017-07-07, 10:06 AM

A) this completely shuts down 100% of Blue creature removal and 50% or more of white's creature removal. That is very, very powerful and shouldn't come cheap. however that creates it's own issues as this is a 2/2 thats well inside easy direct damage or forced chump block territory, if it's cheap thats fine, if it's expensive not so much. Having a really impactful effect on a creature that is really weak tend to end up being a bit of a nightmare, it's so expensive it wants to be a game decider but so easy to remove it wants to be cheap to play.

That is totally fair. I often find myself in a situation where I've got an ability I really like but don't quite know what kind of card to put it on. I made it inexpensive to be in the same kind of vein as other 'hate bears' like Gaddock Teeg, but I could totally see it on a midrange or even large creature, a planeswalker ability/emblem, a comes into play ability, etc.

The flavor behind it is that he enforces the natural birth -> death cycle; it was as much about preventing your opponent from bouncing/flickering their own guys to cheat death as it was preventing the unnatural unmaking of your own creatures. I vaguely remembering that the card was intended to be someone from Jund reacting to the blue and white magic of the other planes. I guess I included red since to signify jund-ness as well as anti-blue and anti-white ness? I just kinda threw bloodthirst on there when I decided to repost it for no particular reason. :smallredface:

Looking back, I make a lot of things multicolor that don't necessarily need to be. It's something to work on, I think.

I was honestly a little more worried about how it interacted with reanimation effects that are supposed to be temporary (especially Unearth), since UW frequently has wrath effects that will still kill this.

JBPuffin

2017-07-07, 01:39 PM

Until the end of your next turn seems fair, and it's been done on Commune with Lava. You'd usually activate the ability the turn before you want to tap things.

End of next turn it shall be.

Carl

2017-07-07, 02:37 PM

That is totally fair. I often find myself in a situation where I've got an ability I really like but don't quite know what kind of card to put it on. I made it inexpensive to be in the same kind of vein as other 'hate bears' like Gaddock Teeg, but I could totally see it on a midrange or even large creature, a planeswalker ability/emblem, a comes into play ability, etc.

The flavor behind it is that he enforces the natural birth -> death cycle; it was as much about preventing your opponent from bouncing/flickering their own guys to cheat death as it was preventing the unnatural unmaking of your own creatures. I vaguely remembering that the card was intended to be someone from Jund reacting to the blue and white magic of the other planes. I guess I included red since to signify jund-ness as well as anti-blue and anti-white ness? I just kinda threw bloodthirst on there when I decided to repost it for no particular reason. :smallredface:

Looking back, I make a lot of things multicolor that don't necessarily need to be. It's something to work on, I think.

I was honestly a little more worried about how it interacted with reanimation effects that are supposed to be temporary (especially Unearth), since UW frequently has wrath effects that will still kill this.

Life death cycle is typically black/green. I think the problem you've fallen into here is you've had a cool idea and are trying to fit it to a specific colour, (totally understand BTW, thats another reason i was asking for feedback on my mechanics idea's for my WIP set, i want to be sure i'm keeping with an appropriate theme for the colour generally whilst still meeting my lore themes), rather than having a concept and a colour and fitting the two together.

The problem i'd say with this card is that it really doesn't do the whole life death cycle thing very well, though i totally get why you set it up this way, instead of enforcing the unending cycle it directly counters efefcts that works against the cycle. it;s a subtle distinction and i'm pretty sure i'd have done exactly the same thing as you here, outside in is much easier than inside out.

A great example might be the following rules text:

Anytime a permanent leaves the battlefield, if it would be placed anywhere other than it's a graveyard, place it in its owners graveyard instead of wherever it would otherwise be placed, (hand, library, exile,, e.t.c.).
Anytime a card would enter a graveyard from anywhere other than the stack or the battlefield shuffle it into it's owners library instead of placing it into the graveyard.

This cares about enforcing the cycle rather than simply countering things that subvert it.

I'd actually argue that the effect you have is more blue/white with maybe some other colour in it. It's about imposing order through directly countering effects which is a very blue/white thing to do, but in the process it tends to disfavour some of the mechanics those two colours use whilst playing up creatures, direct damage, and outright hard destroy effects, things that every colour but blue can do to one degree or another.

I think that makes this strong white, light blue and any other colours are down to anything else on the card tweaking it one way or the other. Any colour could get an edge in with the right keywords though i think that favours green generally as it's a strongly creature centric colour, buffs to creatures would tend to come out white whilst direct damage would be red and destroy effects black. You could probably using purely keywords for blue make a whole cycle of cards based on the same base ability with extra riders. with each of the 5 colours getting to be dominant alongside the base blue/white mix.

solidork

2017-07-07, 05:46 PM

Some thoughts on your mechanics:

Communal - This seems fine if unexciting on its own. Creating cards that interact with gaining life would be what makes it interesting, and it is great that those cards would also be interesting in the larger context of all preexisting cards.

Enslave - this is really awkward. Wizards wouldn't do something like this for a lot of reasons, some of which you can ignore, but some of which I think would leave to better game play.

These are the non-aesthetic non-philosophical issues I see:
- You need to have both a Master and a Slave in play for the mechanic to matter.
- To compound this, the mechanic is only in a couple of colors, making it even less likely that the effect will end up mattering
- You have to spend another turn equipping for the mechanic to matter.
- To compound this further, only certain types of creatures make sense as masters and slaves.(This is technically aesthetic, but you've stated yourself that you imagine the slaves as usually being small creatures.)

I'd start over and find a way to do this that is entirely self contained or interacts with all/a sizable subset of existing creatures. Personally, I'd have the mechanic make 0/1 serf tokens that can't attack or block and then have a number of cards that have activated abilities that require you to tap untapped creatures.

Amechra

2017-07-07, 05:50 PM

Why not have Enslaved trigger off creatures you control, but don't own?

Carl

2017-07-08, 05:05 AM

Why not have Enslaved trigger off creatures you control, but don't own?

Coming at these in slightly reverse order, the thing to remember is a few special exceptions, (one of which will probably show up as a legendary), the bulk of elvish society is, well, made up of elves. This obviously means one side effect is going to be elves in every colour combo present has elves in it. But the side effect of this is it's not really appropriate to have them going out and grabbing lots of non-elf slaves, they don't go forming slaving raiding parties. In fact most outsiders have been brought in by one elf who is a bit of a pacifist, he got the slaves by ambushing various invading armies, (at various times), and then basically after making it clear he's in a position to totally demolish them, then negotiating a treaty not to bother the elves again whilst getting to pick out an individual or two to take home with him. He's incidentally also the one who went to the mat arguing with his own god and convinced him to adjust the letter of his own laws to prevent the loophole abuse by certain individuals who weren't extending the same protections to non-elves that elves enjoy and then spent the last few decades basically getting even on behalf of of those wronged. He's not necessarily nice, but he does have his own code of behavior and that means he's generally not a violent type unless you really push him. He more or less exists to show just how blue/orange the morality of the elves is by human standards.

Anyway some cards that let you add the enslaved property to other cards where absolutely an idea i was going to play with, including enemy cards, but the general point i'd make is that almost all slaves are drawn from internally so whilst it makes sense to have a few cards that let you play with your opponents creatures and enslave them, it's not really appropriate for the mechanic as a whole to function off of enemy cards.

Some thoughts on your mechanics:

Communal - This seems fine if unexciting on its own. Creating cards that interact with gaining life would be what makes it interesting, and it is great that those cards would also be interesting in the larger context of all preexisting cards.

Enslave - this is really awkward. Wizards wouldn't do something like this for a lot of reasons, some of which you can ignore, but some of which I think would leave to better game play.

These are the non-aesthetic non-philosophical issues I see:
- You need to have both a Master and a Slave in play for the mechanic to matter.
- To compound this, the mechanic is only in a couple of colors, making it even less likely that the effect will end up mattering
- You have to spend another turn equipping for the mechanic to matter.
- To compound this further, only certain types of creatures make sense as masters and slaves.(This is technically aesthetic, but you've stated yourself that you imagine the slaves as usually being small creatures.)

I'd start over and find a way to do this that is entirely self contained or interacts with all/a sizable subset of existing creatures. Personally, I'd have the mechanic make 0/1 serf tokens that can't attack or block and then have a number of cards that have activated abilities that require you to tap untapped creatures.

Yeah interacting with that lifegain will absolutely be important. But then that works just fine thematically, the needs of the community is a strong element of the section of elvish society and the natural interaction of having a spell produce lifegain only for the lifegain to then benefit your permanent is very in character for them.

Ok to address some of the worry points:

A). This is going to be a problem whatever i do, there's no real way to represent slavery that doesn't need seperate slave creatures. At least with this type of slavery anyway.

B). Remember there's only 3 groups to elvish society. One of the things my exploratory design turned up is that conceptually whilst there's some ability to use the non-primary colour pairs to create creatures, (and black/white works great for slaves in this respect), the majority of creatures are probably going to be of one of the primary colour pairs. That means there's going to be a lot more black/red cards running around than you might expect. Green/White as the two creature colors will obviously get the biggest chunk, but black/red comes out very neutral on the creature scale, (and and blue/red is firmly on the lower end), so the second biggest chunk of creature cards will be in that pairing, and if you add in the easy black/white options vis a vis slavery theres a ton of room for creature cards in the right colours.

C). That is a fair point and not somthing i'm a fan of either.

D). Yes and no. Absolutely any elf of any level within the specified segment of society can be enslaved if the person doing so has the sheer gall to go after someone powerful. But of course that carries with it a considerable difficulty and more risk than usual. That means the majority of slaves are drawn from the lowest rungs, meaning most are the weakest members of the society. Hence why they'd tend to be smaller creatures. But there are some powerful ones roaming around too.

E) One of the important things to remember is that whilst each section of elvish society is fully interconnected, outside of special festival days for each god no section of society can force another section to act in accordance with it. (And since the laws got changed the same applies to outsiders). Anyone who becomes a part of a given section is subject to whatever framework exists, and bargaining with those who normally are protected in some fashion is perfectly fine, but they don't have complete freedom to go after and enslave anyone they want in any way they like completely at will. This is basically why i messed with the subtype, it's not really appropriate for them to go around enslaving just anybody. In the same vein Slaves are protected from permanent harm, can only be enslaved for certain periods of time and once freed are protected from further enslavement for a period. So it's very atypical of slavery as it's traditionally considered. Whilst the god that heads the society does have slavery as one of his "things" within elvish society it's primarily a societal construct to facilitate the rest of the stuff he embodies since much of it would be impractical to find mass volunteers for in the usual sense.

All that said some of what you've said has made me reconsider a point. I was worried about stopping the whole enslavement thing interacting with other cards in the sense that it would be inappropriate to have enslaved cards attached to creatures from the other factions. But there's no reason they couldn't work just fine with a number of other cards out there allready extant. I also avoided putting the keyword on the enslaved creature cards because i planned to produce most of them via token generation, but i don't think that's strictly as big an issue as i thought and maybe i let my OCD get to me again.

Let me throw out a new take on it:

Serf: When this creature enters the battlefield attach it to a target creature you control that shares a colour with it. Whilst attached it cannot attack or block, but abilities may still activate and it may still tap and untap. If sacrificed, at the next end step create a token that is a copy of this creature but which lacks the Serf keyword.

Example Card:

Serfdom B/W
Sourcery - C
Create a 1/1 Black creature token with Serf: (When this creature enters the battlefield attach it to a target creature you control that shares a colour with it. Whilst attached it cannot attack or block, but abilities may still activate and it may still tap and untap. If sacrificed, at the next end step create a token that is a copy of this creature except it lacks the Serf keyword.)

And then a simple example card for it to attach to:

Warrior Apprentice BR
Creature - Elf Warrior U
1/2
For each creature with Serf attached to Warrior Apprentice it gains +2/+0
Sacrifice an attached creature with serf, Apprentice Warrior is Indestructible till end of turn.

Svata

2017-07-08, 05:20 AM

khadgar567

2017-07-08, 07:42 AM

is wish draw card works as mechanic? And how you word it?

Svata

2017-07-08, 09:23 AM

Pardon? I understood all of those words, but they didn't make a coherent sentence. Could you perhaps try rewording it?

solidork

2017-07-08, 09:33 AM

Silfir

2017-07-08, 09:41 AM

I've got 4 cards. Sorry for no art, but I don't really feel like stealing art for them. They share a mechanic I've made, and I think I may slowly make a set, focused around the shards, I think. Not sure if this mechanic is deep enough to make it the main mechanic of the Jund colors in it, but I've literally just started.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DENJ8fqWsAEYN2C.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DENKP9CXkAAX5YQ.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DENJ8frW0AAS3mb.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DENJ8fpXsAEVE8f.jpg

I've been messing around with the uncommon a lot. I'm still not sure I'm happy with it.

ETA: Bonus! A white card!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DENPP0LXYAA00uf.jpg

Even if that removal is conditional.

Shield of Honor seems like perfectly flavorful, if average, common rarity removal.

As for the "Hunger" keyword - it's flavorful, but it's not at all fun to actually play with, especially once you go to Hunger 2+. Imagine staring at an empty board and looking at a hand full of these. Imagine sacrificing your board to summon a big dumb 9/10 Trample, and your opponent plays Unsummon (http://magiccards.info/m13/en/75.html).

Having drawbacks as keywords is something Wizards tries to avoid, for good reason - keywords define the block and show up on a multitude of cards, and when they represent drawbacks (especially ones as severe as this one) players are going to grow to hate them.

What's more, the steep cost in creatures this represents means you can, at best, put one Hunger 2+ in your Limited deck. Maybe two Hunger 1s. And even that is questionable.

Ultimately, I can't help but feel that the Magic design team already got the mechanic right when they did Devour.

khadgar567

2017-07-08, 10:54 AM

Pardon? I understood all of those words, but they didn't make a coherent sentence. Could you perhaps try rewording it?
lets say you have a new mechanic called wish allowing you to draw up to three wish cards from your deck how you word it?

Carl

2017-07-08, 12:07 PM

Reverse (cost) - You may pay (cost) as you cast this spell. If you do, apply the numbered effects in reverse order.

All of these basically read like weird entwine cards, so I'm not super convinced it's worth the potential headaches of the mechanic.

Seedling's Strength 1G
Sorcery
Reverse - G
1: Choose a creature with the least toughness among creatures you control and put 2 +1/+1 counters on it.
2: Create a 0/1 green Plant creature token.

Coup de Grâce 2W
Sorcery
Choose target creature.
Reverse - B
1: Destroy that creature if it is tapped.
2: Tap that creature if it is on the battlefield.

In for the Kill 1BB
Sorcery
Reverse - Pay 2 Life
1: Create a 2/2 black Zombie creature token.
2: Each player sacrifices a creature.

When I first posted this mechanic a few years ago on Good Gamery, the best card for it was designed by F♠️less. I will include it here since it shows the mechanic off better and because it is pretty sweet!

Unrelated card idea:

Electric Corona 3R
Sorcery
Electric Corona costs 1 less for each creature it targets.
Electric Corona deals 3 damage divided as you choose among one, two or three target creatures.

I guess this would be fine at rare? There is probably a better vehicle for this particular idea than a red burn spell.

No i think it's distinct enough to stand apart from Entwine and kinda cool. I like.

lets say you have a new mechanic called wish allowing you to draw up to three wish cards from your deck how you word it?

You wouldn't. You'd just write "draw three card" on the appropriate card.

Whilst this goes for Svata below you the key thing ti remember is new keywords are about representing a mechanic that will occur repeatedly throughout a set. They're shorthand basically. Thus if somthing isn't present on a large percentage of cards in your set, especially at common, it isn't keyword worthy. Draw three cards is such a powerful effect it belongs at uncommon at the bare minimum, and probably rare or mythic rare. It can;t ever be a set level mechanic theme so it doesn't belong as a keyword. Also most keywords have a conditional for when their effect applies. They don't just say "Do X", they say "When Y is true, Do X"

I've got 4 cards. Sorry for no art, but I don't really feel like stealing art for them. They share a mechanic I've made, and I think I may slowly make a set, focused around the shards, I think. Not sure if this mechanic is deep enough to make it the main mechanic of the Jund colors in it, but I've literally just started.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DENJ8fqWsAEYN2C.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DENKP9CXkAAX5YQ.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DENJ8frW0AAS3mb.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DENJ8fpXsAEVE8f.jpg

I've been messing around with the uncommon a lot. I'm still not sure I'm happy with it.

ETA: Bonus! A white card!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DENPP0LXYAA00uf.jpg

Even if that removal is conditional.

Shield of Honour is cool. The others.

A) I agree that Devour does it better.

B) that keywording somthing like this is very awkward, it's technically keywordable if sufficiently present, but getting somthing like this present in sufficient amounts is very awkward. Again it needs to turn up on a significant percentage of your cards in the appropriate colour/s in all your rarities, (especially common), to work as a keyword, and this being non-optional all downside makes that very difficult to do.

Svata

2017-07-08, 08:01 PM

Carl

2017-07-08, 09:38 PM

Yeah, I totally get that criticism. That's why red was going to have a moderately strong tokens presence, to offset that. And I was kind of inspired by devour, honestly. Well, that and the cards that make you put -1/-1 counters on your creatures from AKH/HOU. I'm glad you liked the flavor of it though. :smallsmile: What sort of drawback would you craft that makes them more playable, but still has that predatory feel? Or should it maybe be a sort of kicker thing, except on ETB rather than cast to prevent blowouts?

Like, its a 3/2 that enters with a +1/+1 counter (+whatever ability for the non-vanilla ones) if you sacrifice a creature as it enters the battlefield. Would that be mechanically distinct enough from devour, as it is a set cost and effect, rather than a variable one?

Also, glad you liked Shield of Honor.

First if you're going to have hunger turn up outside of red, then non-red needs the token generation too. You can't restrict it to one colour unless you restrict Hunger the same way, (obviously multi-colours with red as one equired colour are fine)

Nah i don't think that would be especially different from devour really. The thing to remember with the -1/-1 cards from those sets, (only familiar with a couple mind), is that they have a theme of being able to spend them as a resource. Your just throwing away creatures to get somthing big for less. In that respect it also has overlap with convoke.

If you wanted to do a devour like mechanic that plays with AKH/HOU type spend as a resource mechanic i'd try one of the two following idea's:

Idea 1:

Hunger N: When this card enters the battlefield you may Exile up to N creatures you control under "CARDNAME" until it leaves the battlefield.

Then put Tap: As an additional cost to activate this ability sacrifice a creature exiled under "CARDNAME" "EFFECT"

Where CARDNAME is the name of the card and EFFECT is an effect that occurs.

Idea 2:

Hunger N: CARDNAME enters the battlefield with N -1/-1 counters on it, anytime a creature enters a graveyard remove a -1/-1 counter.

You could use dies instead of enters the battlefield. Or you could replace "enters a graveyard" above with "ZONE" and give each colour it's own trigger. Black could be stuff hitting the graveyard, white stuff being exiled, blue stuff being returned to the hand, red could be land destruction, (or somthing), and green straight up "dies". for example. It's a bit hard to explain how blue is eating stuff returned to hand of course but that means building a few returns to hand effects that have a lore appropriate explanation.

Carl

2017-07-09, 12:18 AM

Ok had an idea for a mechanic to cover the third of my elven societies factions so i'll throw it out for review, (i did reply btw to the last lot of critique on the other two, last post of the previous page, not sure if it managed to get missed or if your just all considering responses ;)). Th spoiler tags will contain some basic notes on how i created the mechanic in my head, and some stuff on how i see it fitting the colour pie.

As a general note on the faction they're Blue-Red primary with a secondary of black, being focused on creativity and civilisation as a whole, you'll find mages, scientists artificers, artists, poets engineers, architects, and gourmet chefs, amongst other things. They embody a well balanced mix of the two colours however not as a whole being subject to the worst excesses of either colour creativity and individualism in balance is a good sub description, that said on an individual level excess enthusiasm can push them towards some of the negatives of the individual colours and thats shared territory with black.

It may sound odd given it's name but i was really starved for inspiration on this one, i just wasn't quite sure how to get the feel of the faction across, part of it was that it was the least well defined faction, i was struggling to find some common ground in amongst all this at the time. Thanks to the early part of this thread however i've been rewatching MLP. So after a fruitless bit of thinking i put down the problem and started thinking about an episode i'd just watched, and in my mind's action replay rarity said a word. Inspiration. Clever Girl. I swear a lightbulb must have appeared above my head at that moment. Comical as all that sounds the key thing it really opened my eyes to is that the big thing all the the facets of the relevant section of elvish society is that they're creative in nature. This led me to thinking about a set of concepts encapsulated in 3 tropes,; Bunny-Eared lawyer, Super OCD, and Absent Minded Professor. Whilst not all creative types are like that, (and neither is the whole of this section of elvish society), what separates the greats from the rest both IRL and especially in fiction is that they're prone to acting in ways that seem borderline insane in some respect, but lead to greater creative ability on their part.

In fact that epiphany helped me firm up my concept of the relevant section of Elvish society quite nicely. So cool.

Ok so i had this idea that cards representing that segment of elvish society should be prone to seeming a little insane whilst giving you an advantage in exchange for the seeming insanity. That led to two questions. First was that appropriate to the colour combination, and Second, what would be insane for this colour combo specifically?

The answer to the first question was a clear and unequivocal yes, Blue/ed is the colours of mad science. It's the colour combo that specialises in this.

The second was to ask what defined these two colours as beneficial things they commonly do, well blus big stand out was card draw. Red, it doesn't do direct card draw, but between impulsive draw effects, wheeling effects, and a few tangential effects that grant a form of card advantage, all at a cost. Thus whilst card draw wasn't strongly red, messing with it in a negetive way in exchange for a benefit for you was well within the realms of a blue/red mix. There's a bit more to it than that, (specifically the commonest way i intend to use it was inspired, (hur, hur), by the thought process of "what's the obvious direct exchange? Which led to exchanging one type of card advantage for another), but thats the gist of it.

The mechanic functions as an extra cost mechanic for somthing in exchange for a benefit, much like exert. Though what you pay is very different:

Inspire: As an additional cost to "EFFECT" until the end of your next turn anytime you draw a card, discard it immediately without placing it into your hand.

EFFECT is generally either "activate this ability" or "cast this spell" though i expect the latter to be rarer.

There's a corollary or two to this in terms of effects i'm planning on heavily using.

The two commonest effect it will allow are:

On permanents:

"Tap, then pay N. As an additional cost to activate this ability, Inspire yourself, (Until the end of your next turn, anytime you draw a card, discard it immediately without placing it into your hand). You may cast a copy of CARDNAME drawn from outside the game without paying it's mana cost, you may choose new targets for this copy.

On Instants and Sorceries:

"So long as it's owner is Inspired CARDNAME has Flashback N"

The first one may change to "Create a token that is a copy of CARDNAME" depending on how many effects i end up with that need non-token permanents to target to work.

There's also doubtless going to be a lot of "on enters battlefield" effects to reward you for using inspire.

Both basically boil down to using the inspire mechanic to get a different kind of card advantage, turning your battlefield permanents and graveyard non-permanents into a weird kind of extension of your hand, at the cost of higher casting costs, (probably +2 mana in most cases), for most things since your getting so much potential, card advantage, and a sort of pseudo tutor for things you allready have.. Being able to mass multiply your creatures is a very red/blue thing to do as well. Flashback is a red thing and Blue and Red are the core colours for pulling instant/sorcery spells respectively out of your graveyard. So it all lines up nicely.

solidork

2017-07-09, 06:02 PM

I'm on my phone so I'll do responses later.

Handicap B
Sorcery
Put a -1/-1 counter on each creature with toughness two or greater.
Cycling - B

Dramatic Embermage 1RR
Creature - Human Shaman
4R - Dramatic Embermage deals two damage to target creature or player. This ability costs 4 less to activate if Dramatic Embermage entered the battlefield this turn.
2/1

Trusted Assistant 2U
Creature - Human Wzard
When you activate a non-mana ability of a creature or planeswalker you control, you may tap Trusted Assistant. If you do, copy that activated ability. You may choose new targets for that copy.
1/3

Silfir

2017-07-09, 07:03 PM

I'm on my phone so I'll do responses later.

Handicap B
Sorcery
Put a -1/-1 counter on any number of target creatures with toughness two or greater.
Cycling - B

Dramatic Embermage 1RR
Creature - Human Shaman
4R - Dramatic Embermage deals two damage to target creature or player. This ability costs 4 less to activate if Dramatic Embermage entered the battlefield this turn.
2/1

Trusted Assistant 2U
Creature - Human Wzard
When you activate the ability of a creature or planeswalker, you may tap Trusted Assistant. If you do, copy that activated ability. You may choose new targets for that ability.
1/3

These are all interesting. Aggressively priced perhaps. Playtesting would have to determine if they'll warp any formats beyond the breaking point.

Handicap seems like it should cost more. It's a massive upgrade on Shrivel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397857) for all intents on purposes - permanent effect, one-sided, and can even be cycled in case you're not playing a creature-based deck. Admittedly Shrivel isn't a very good card.

Dramatic Embermage seems reasonable. 5 mana, no tap to ping for 2 isn't a particularly outrageous exchange rate; in fact, it's exactly the same as on Nightfire Giant (http://magiccards.info/m15/en/109.html), and I haven't heard of that breaking any formats, though it certainly looks like it was quite good in Limited. This one probably would probably be a fair bit worse, since its Red requirement is so steep - 1RRR is tough to come up with in Limited, but if you can't find it, you may have to play it as just a 2/1 for 1RR, which is well under the curve.

I think the tapping is enough to keep Trusted Assistant within bounds, though it's overall a better card than Illusionist's Bracers.

Carl

2017-07-09, 07:09 PM

These are all interesting. Aggressively priced perhaps. Playtesting would have to determine if they'll warp any formats beyond the breaking point.

Handicap seems like it should cost more. It's a massive upgrade on Shrivel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397857) for all intents on purposes - permanent effect, one-sided, and can even be cycled in case you're not playing a creature-based deck. Admittedly Shrivel isn't a very good card.

Dramatic Embermage seems reasonable. 5 mana, no tap to ping for 2 isn't a particularly outrageous exchange rate; in fact, it's exactly the same as on Nightfire Giant (http://magiccards.info/m15/en/109.html), and I haven't heard of that breaking any formats, though it certainly looks like it was quite good in Limited. This one probably would probably be a fair bit worse, since its Red requirement is so steep - 1RRR is tough to come up with in Limited, but if you can't find it, you may have to play it as just a 2/1 for 1RR, which is well under the curve.

I think the tapping is enough to keep Trusted Assistant within bounds, though it's overall a better card than Illusionist's Bracers.

Pretty much matches my thoughts.

An no worries solidork on being unable to reply atm. Made a minor edit it to clarify the discard part of the mechanic outlined in my prior post.

Amechra

2017-07-09, 07:57 PM

Silfir

2017-07-09, 08:02 PM

The second was to ask what defined these two colours as beneficial things they commonly do, well blus big stand out was card draw. Red, it doesn't do direct card draw, but between impulsive draw effects, wheeling effects, and a few tangential effects that grant a form of card advantage, all at a cost. Thus whilst card draw wasn't strongly red, messing with it in a negetive way in exchange for a benefit for you was well within the realms of a blue/red mix. There's a bit more to it than that, (specifically the commonest way i intend to use it was inspired, (hur, hur), by the thought process of "what's the obvious direct exchange? Which led to exchanging one type of card advantage for another), but thats the gist of it.

My comment on the Inspire keyword, I suppose, is that the mechanics don't match the flavor of what Inspiration is - while it's all well and good to look for many different places for inspiration, a Magic card search engine would have pointed out that being inspired is about drawing cards (http://magiccards.info/rtr/en/42.html), not discarding them. Deriving an advantage from discarding cards isn't inspired, it's Madness (http://magiccards.info/rule/702-keyword-abilities.html#rule-702-34).

Blue's ability to draw cards is generally utterly unimpeded (http://magiccards.info/mm2/en/174.html) by being paired with Red, in fact, they tend to go hand in hand (http://magiccards.info/ddj/en/26.html) to create extremely powerful effects (http://magiccards.info/mm2/en/182.html). The colors complement each other's strengths in this case.

One big aspect of Blue/Red philosophy, however, is directness - it's not it s way to form patient long-term plans, which the whole idea of "extending your hand" via sort-of Flashback cards, and so on would imply. That strikes me as Blue/Black. Black certainly is a color that wouldn't mind giving up its sanity - going mad - for power.

There's also the issue that a mechanic that takes cards from the top of your deck and discards them instead of drawing - in order to fill up the graveyard to play around with - already exists, and it's called Dredge, and is Green/Black.

EDIT:

Compare Handicap to Scar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scar).

Trusted Assistant is too cheap. The closest equivalents are:

• Equipment with Equip 3, that just affects the equipped creature. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366426)
• A triggered ability that costs 2 extra. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140216)
• A triggered ability that costs R extra (that's on a legendary creature). (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383295)

And those don't let you copy mana abilities. They're also collectively amazing cards.

Trusted Assistant is incredibly easy to break; Trusted Assistant + Aphetto Alchemist equipped with an Illusionist's Bracers comes to mind:

1. Activate the ability.
2. Tap Trusted Assistant to copy it.
3. Tap Aphetto Alchemist to untap Trusted Assistant and Aphetto Alchemist.

If you have, say, an Orochi Leafcaller (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50319) out, that's infinite mana in any colors you please. Heck, that works with any mana filterer that happens to be a creature.

So... you might want to put that "that isn't a mana ability" clause in there.

You just listed a total of four distinct cards that would be required to get a broken effect - infinite mana. I'm pretty sure there are a number of infinite combos out there that require a lot fewer pieces and kill your opponent directly. Think of something like Felidar Sovereign & Saheeli Rai, or Sanguine Bond & Exquisite Blood.

The combo has to be easy to pull off and cheap to be a cause for worry. I think the fact Trusted Assistant taps is enough to keep it out of that territory - I think your example shows that well, since it involves two cards that specifically have the job of untapping Trusted Assistant so it can be re-used at all.

solidork

2017-07-09, 09:47 PM

I totally should have specified non-mana, that is standard template here for similar effects. I could also make it smaller, being easier to remove than the existing options was supposed to be a balancing factor.

solidork

2017-07-09, 10:06 PM

Compare Handicap to Scar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scar).

Probably right. I figured that since you can't actually kill any creatures straight up or use it as a surprise to kill something, it might be able to fly at one mana if it is rare.

What if it was symmetric?

Carl

2017-07-09, 10:32 PM

Compare Handicap to Scar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scar).

Trusted Assistant is too cheap. The closest equivalents are:

• Equipment with Equip 3, that just affects the equipped creature. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366426)
• A triggered ability that costs 2 extra. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140216)
• A triggered ability that costs R extra (that's on a legendary creature). (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383295)

And those don't let you copy mana abilities. They're also collectively amazing cards.

Trusted Assistant is incredibly easy to break; Trusted Assistant + Aphetto Alchemist equipped with an Illusionist's Bracers comes to mind:

1. Activate the ability.
2. Tap Trusted Assistant to copy it.
3. Tap Aphetto Alchemist to untap Trusted Assistant and Aphetto Alchemist.

If you have, say, an Orochi Leafcaller (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50319) out, that's infinite mana in any colors you please. Heck, that works with any mana filterer that happens to be a creature.

So... you might want to put that "that isn't a mana ability" clause in there.

Every single example you listed can trigger as many times per turn as the ability activates and you can pay the costs for. Thats a significant late game upside. I agree there might be room to tweak the costs of the cards upwards but there's a significant difference between the two types that has a major effect.

My comment on the Inspire keyword, I suppose, is that the mechanics don't match the flavor of what Inspiration is - while it's all well and good to look for many different places for inspiration, a Magic card search engine would have pointed out that being inspired is about drawing cards (http://magiccards.info/rtr/en/42.html), not discarding them. Deriving an advantage from discarding cards isn't inspired, it's Madness (http://magiccards.info/rule/702-keyword-abilities.html#rule-702-34).

Blue's ability to draw cards is generally utterly unimpeded (http://magiccards.info/mm2/en/174.html) by being paired with Red, in fact, they tend to go hand in hand (http://magiccards.info/ddj/en/26.html) to create extremely powerful effects (http://magiccards.info/mm2/en/182.html). The colors complement each other's strengths in this case.

One big aspect of Blue/Red philosophy, however, is directness - it's not it s way to form patient long-term plans, which the whole idea of "extending your hand" via sort-of Flashback cards, and so on would imply. That strikes me as Blue/Black. Black certainly is a color that wouldn't mind giving up its sanity - going mad - for power.

There's also the issue that a mechanic that takes cards from the top of your deck and discards them instead of drawing - in order to fill up the graveyard to play around with - already exists, and it's called Dredge, and is Green/Black.

Don't read too much into names i'm assigning for now. They're just that names, handles i can use. Focus on what they're representing, in this case it's not madness because madness is about outright insanity, madness is about genuinely being and acting insane and having it work out anyway. This is creativity and clever planning that looks like insanity to an outsider but later proves to be a carefully orchestrated moment of genius that no one else was able to appreciate till everything fell into place because you were working at a million miles per hour in a way that made no sense on the surface without topping to explain yourself. It's about that fine line between genius and madness. In fact Genius might be a better keyword name actually. A good example of this kind of thing is Pinkie Pie with the parasprites, or most of the Mythbusters episodes where what they're doing sounds completely insane if you don't know why, but turns out to actually be very clever, well planned, and creative science, that can also be very fun and lighthearted once it's explained.

Also where did i say it would be interacting with the graveyard primarily? Yes i see using flashback as a great way to bring sorceries and instants, (which leave the battlefield upon resolution), in on this whole "copy" trickery, but thats the limit of things, and thats more an acknowledgement that blue/red is going to have the fewest creatures and the most instants and sorceries so whatever mechanic i use has to affect those card types in some fashion. At the same time blue/red is one of the three primary colour pairs in the set so whilst it's ratio of creatures to instants/sorceries will favour the latter, that still means a strong creature presence in absolute numbers terms so the mechanic can't only interact with instants and sorceries.

At the same time, don't get caught up with the colour pie so much. Colours, (and by extension combo's), cover broad territories. Previous blue/red may have focused on short term gains at the expense of long term stuff, but thats by no means fixed. Blue and Red in combination can cover a lot of ground, each is basically the others opposite which means what defines the colour combo is entirely dependent on what elements of each is being used.

Previous attempts seems to have focused on reds impulsiveness using blues inventiveness for it's own ends, taking impulsive actions to get knowledge or in response to acquiring knowledge.

This faction focuses on what happens when the best elements of each curb the worst elements of the other producing a balanced mix, impulsiveness exists, but never to the point that they become negetive, likewise blues typical careful studious approach comes in, but proceeds at super speed because of the inherent creativity of red, and whilst blues desire to constantly improve weather looking at new idea's or re-using old red's individualism keeps it from doing so to the detriment of others.

Thats why i went with the whole bunny eared lawyer/absent minded professor/genius ditz aspects as what i wanted to try and represent, they're the one thing thats really shared amongst everything that section of society gets upto, not all members of it are like that ofc, but generally the really successful ones are.

Giegue

2017-07-09, 10:54 PM

Svata

2017-07-09, 11:08 PM

Azaghast seems... overly complex. Why not "whenever Azaghast or another specter you control attacks, each player discards a card" or something similar?

Also, a couple of variations of a card I've been trying to tweak and get right. Any suggestions?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEWHbIWWAAAKRca.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEWHdc9WsAAuw7f.jpg

sonofzeal

2017-07-09, 11:43 PM

Azaghast, Spectral Tyrant

Power level and color combination seems about right. The phrasing on the last ability seems fair but doesn't... feel right. Perhaps........

"Whenever Azaghast, Spectral Tyrant attacks, each opponent discards a card. If at least three other Specters are also attacking, each opponent discards another card".

This may not save on words, but should be more easily parsable, doesn't involve fractions, and accomplishes the same result as long as there aren't seven or more Specters all attacking together when opponents have more than two cards in hand, which for a discard-heavy deck seems niche enough to be irrelevant.

The problem with discard is that once their hands are empty, they just play what they draw each turn and further discard effects are wasted. If a Specter deck is hitting its stride the opposing players are going to have empty hands a lot of the time, but that doesn't mean you can actually close out the game, and forcing potentially disadvantageous attacks to trigger his discard can make that worse. Giving him haste helps front-load the discard, but there's a much more elegant (imo) solution to the idea of what a Spectral commander might be:

"Flying // When Azaghast, Spectral Tyrant enters the battlefield, you may tap any number of other Specter creatures you control. For each Specter you tap this way, each opponent discards a card. // Other Specter creatures you control get +1/+1."

...but maybe increase the CMC by 1, because dropping T4 could be brutal otherwise. He'll make a big splash though, and be somewhat better at closing out games.

Takashi, Lord of Gensokyo

I really like his cost and effect. The only concrit here is that the phrasing should be "where X is", not "with X being", and that he might actually fit his identity better as a 1/3 but adding Lifelink. Skulk will be more reliable, and it helps balance the idea of a sneaky mofo with someone dedicated to providing for his followers, but he's never going to win by Commander Damage or be any good in an actual fight.

Oh, and "Cleric" just feels off. "Advisor", maybe? "Shaman"? "Ally"? "Rogue" or "Ninja"? IDK.

solidork

2017-07-09, 11:54 PM

I'm personally enamored with wording it similar to Exalted and very solidly identifying it as an U/W creature from Bant.You kinda split the difference between the two cards but also make it more powerful, and both versions are already pretty powerful. Here is an interesting twist...

Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, tap up to two target creatures defending player controls. If Aven Battlemaster is attacking, those creatures don't untap during their controller's next untap step.

I don't think they did this when they were on Bant and it's interesting enough I might try some other things with it later.

sonofzeal

2017-07-10, 12:03 AM

Aven Battlemaster

Wow. That's potent. Imagine either effect triggering on two consecutive turns - that's four potential defenders tapped each turn, or two creatures that'll never get a chance to untap, and the moment a bigger threat without haste hits the battlefield you can permalock that instead. Either version of this card is a wincon, with the former even more than the latter because you can slap down a heavier beatstick and continue the lock uninterrupted... or have two or three on the field at once and permalock entire armies. Yes yes, "dies to removal", but you could cut the effect in half (either way) and it'd be reasonable. It either needs a hefty downside, Legendary status, a more frail body, or some combination of the above.

Svata

2017-07-10, 12:15 AM

True. Would cutting it down to 1 tap, making it the latter version, and cutting it to 2 toughness work?

Blue Ghost

2017-07-10, 12:24 AM

Both versions of Aven Battlemaster seem a bit off to me. For the first one, a 3/3 flyer is something you want to attack with, and having the effect activate only when it doesn't attack means you can't ever use either side of the card to its full potency. The second version avoids that issue, but tapping down creatures on attacks is something you want to do to push through attacks, and is rather redundant with flying.

How attached are you to having it be an aven? I'd recommend going with the second version and getting rid of flying, perhaps replacing it with some non-evasion ability like vigilance or lifelink. And yes, I think tapping a single creature, or removing the "doesn't untap" clause, would work best.

Svata

2017-07-10, 12:28 AM

Blue Ghost

2017-07-10, 12:38 AM

Honestly, flying was just because its really the only mechanic common between blue and white, and Aven was an outgrowth of that. Vigilance could be good, though. Any suggestions for a different tribe/name for a U/W creature?

And I will be reducing it to a single tap. (If I'm taking off flying and adding a defensive mechanic like vigilance, I'm not taking its toughness down)

The "tap and hold" ability is firmly in blue, so having the keyword be a white one like vigilance will satisfy the UW requirement quite well.

If it's a Bant card, it could be a human or a rhox, and perhaps you could name it after the nation it comes from? From the wiki (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Bant): "There are five nations on Bant: the Inner Three (Akrasa, Eos, and Topa), the island nation of Jhess and the coastal nation of Valeron."

Svata

2017-07-10, 12:55 AM

Did what I said I would
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEWgrXFW0AAE-nz.jpg

Also, another card! I'm surprised this name hasn't been used yet!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEWgqWOXYAA8E8k.jpg

Carl

2017-07-10, 09:05 AM

First of all, I will say, as a long time MTG...this thread is AWESOME. That being said, I don't make many fake cards, but the recent commander 2017 spoilers got me brewing some fake commanders for tribes that will never get a proper lord from wizards. RN, I have two of them in very early stages, and I have no idea how balanced they are. I'll post them below, along with my design philosophy behind them...

First off, I have my specter lord...

https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/complete/full/2017/7/9/1499628413618785.png

Specters are a small tribe with a very narrow focus: discard. While this is a potent strategy in one on one duels, this card was desgined primarily with commander, a multiplayer format, in mind. Single target becomes a lot less powerful in multiplayer games, and thus I wanted to give him an effect that let your specter move from being single target discard to forcing discard for the entire table. After a bit of tinkering, this is what I came up with, and I have no idea how good it is. Some friends I ran it past said it was totally awesome, and a commander they wanted to play. Others said it's effect, while balanced, felt "too complex" to ever see print in actual magic. I'm honestly not sure where the effects stands, but it does accomplish what I wanted to do with the commander...which was making a deck that crams as many specters as it can into it actually viable in commander.

Any advice on this guy would be appreciated!

Secondly, I have a fox lord...

https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/complete/full/2017/7/9/1499625715417535.png

This one is odd, and thats on purpose. the foxes themselves, mostly from kamigawa, had no real coheirent theme. You had a few fox samurai, but they where really more auxillary to the samurai deck then an identity for the tribe. Likeise, you had the fox clerics, which where kinda bad, but had a theme of protecting your creatures, but this was still not really an identity for the tribe. Later foxes from other sets had everything from enchantment removal effects to just being beatsticks, but they remained mostly in white and almost exclusively little guys.

I will make no secrect of the fact that a deck type I love in magic is Stax. I love the cruel, resource denial play strategy of that deck, so when I sat down to make a fox lord, I knew I wanted to do something crazy and make kitsune stax a deck via this foxy commander. However, I didn't want to limit him to strictly one deck build, so I wanted to give him an effect that would make the fox stax deck a thing, but also open him up to other strategies, such as more aggressive beatdown tactics. Due to the strong theme of creature preservation within the tribe, I decided to give him an effect that grew stronger based on the number of foxes you controlled...an effect that just so happened to be decent for a stax deck, but also opened him up to a lot of other possible deck builds. Some friends I ran him by said he seemed very interesting and something they'd like to play, while others where just like "He's just a janky Zur", and after taking their suggestions into consideration I got his current form.

I like the effect he has, and I think it's pretty interesting, and accomplishes my weird need for kitsune stax in commander quite well...but the one thing I cannot pin on this guy is a mana cost. I know I want him to be in esper, but I can't figure out if he wants to be a three or four drop commander. He was originally a four drop at 1WUB, but the friends who called him a "janky Zur" cited this as the main reason for that, saying that he was too much mana for what he brings....so now he's a WUB 3-drop and that feels fine to me, but I'm not great with balance...So if this is too low a cost for what he does, I'd like to know, otherwise, I think he does what I want, even if what that is is something really odd and specific to me.

Again, any advice on this guy (but especially advice related to what his mana cost should be) would be appreciated!

Glad you liked the thread :). And nice to see more people in here :D.

I agree with others that first one is really awkward. Otherwise generally cool. Though they definitely feel strongly commander focused, which may or may not be a good thing.

Did what I said I would
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEWgrXFW0AAE-nz.jpg

Also, another card! I'm surprised this name hasn't been used yet!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEWgqWOXYAA8E8k.jpg

The latter looks cool but should maybe have another 1 mana thrown on, your talking a counterspell, plus 2 life loss, plus maybe a card draw for the same mana as a standard counterspell card, albeit with the third being a second colour. The life loss on it's own would probably be ok, but the extra circumstantial card draw pushes it over IMO.

The first, eh i'm torn both ways. On the one hand it's a potential game changer if allowed to work for a few turns. But that price tag and stats level tends to make it very vulnerable to getting taken out. I'd say the fact that i'm veering both ways in the back of my mind on this means it's probably an ok card though.

And i think i need to re-think my inspire ability. Wrote the prior response after waking up middle of night and not being able to sleep, but reading through it now i stand by most of my points, but, copying things isn't really "inventive" enough. That aspect of the idea came out of "what level of advantage does not gettin card draw for over a turn need", and "what do blue and red share", which answered as "alternate card advantage to offset lost card advantage from no draws". And also realising copying stuff and messing with instant and sorceries in the graveyard was a shared thing both did in varying ways. It's a mechanic combination i like, but doesn't quite get the feel i wanted now i've talked it out.

Svata

2017-07-10, 09:14 AM

About the counterspell- They recently printed Disallow (Counterspell+Stifle) at 1UU. Taking that into consideration, along with the fact that both the life loss and card draw are conditional.

Also, there's Countersquall from Conflux, which is UB "counter target noncreature spell, its controller loses 2 life".

Carl

2017-07-10, 09:58 AM

For some reason i missed that the life loss was conditional, i blame having just woken up when i looked at it :p. Yeah if the life loss is conditional it looks ok.

Carl

2017-07-10, 01:55 PM

p.s where did you dig up the generic art from? Decided to get on cardsmith myself as had a couple of straight up card idea's i want to run past people. And it really does look better in that format, but art totally isn't my thing, like at all, and your generic backgrounds work quite well.

Svata

2017-07-10, 02:33 PM

Its the default art on Magic Set Editor. Free download, has all the card templates and stuff you could ever want. The only downside is that (at least for me) the M15 frame seems to be broken (hence why I'm using the modern frames instead). You can even make your own set symbols.

Carl

2017-07-10, 03:20 PM

Ah cheers :), i'd found a website level creator only in my search.

Carl

2017-07-10, 06:30 PM

Okay, cool tool is cool. 2 cards for you to look at.

http://i.imgur.com/FwUS47e.jpg

Notes: An attempt to play with dual lands in a new way, you don't start getting mana for two turns, but you get an immediate 1 mana level benefit to offset that so it only really costs you 1 mana and some flexibility about how you spend that mana.

http://i.imgur.com/UJkLRqd.jpg

Notes: This was an attempt to play with token generation, (somthing green and white like to do), and also scale it off how hard you've worked allready, (which also ties in with white/green theme's, but also the community effort theme, the more desperate things become the more off them turn up and the harder they work). It's taken a lot of effort to get here but it feels a lot better balanced than the original version, (which you haven't seen in case you're wondering). I really had two, competing things to get right here.

First i needed to make sure that if you got just one copy early on the card wasn't a total waste, and a 1/1 for 2 mana on a dual colour in green and white is firmly in the awful category. Hence i handed out the flashback, even at 4 mana for a total of 6 mana a 1/1 then 2 2/2's for 6 mana whilst on the low end of the power curve, especially for green white is bearable. I did have to specify that the effect counted copies of the card in exile because of flashback though.

Second i needed to make sure that getting 2 copies early, (more than that requires a fair bit of luck or a specific deck build IMO given white/green is usually tight on card draw and low on tutors), didn't completely break things, the base cost for the base effect was fine a 1/1 and then 2 2/2's for 4 mana spread over upto 2 turns, (even if it was in two colours), is right at the top of the efficiency curve. But then flashback came along and made it a nightmare, you could without any landraw and with a bit of luck pull a 1/1, 2 2/2's, and then 3 3/3's on turn 4 whilst spending just 8 mana. With the ability to follow it up with 3 more 3/3's on turn 5 for another 4 mana. Thats a lot of hard and fast ramp and it's damnably cheap too.

My solution that i'm submitting for review was inspired by a black card from innistrad that did 13 2/2 black zombies for CMC 8 in pure black. It got away with that much efficency in black by putting them into play tapped. So despite not necessarily being something white/green does a lot i copied it as that effectively delays them until the following turn, which slows the peak ramp down without upping the base or flashback costs such that the single-copy-only use becomes downright bad.

But i'll admit that i'm still a tad concerned. Also get 3 or worse all 4 copies early and it could still turn into a truly monstrous amount of ramp. I think thats unlikely enough and would take long enough to live with but i'd appreciate thoughts.

Amechra

2017-07-10, 08:16 PM

Carl

2017-07-10, 09:24 PM

Here are a pair I found while cleaning out a hard drive:

Agent Saboteur 1W/R
Creature - Human Artificer
Affinity for Artifacts.
Whenever you gain control of Agent Saboteur, sacrifice an artifact. If you own Agent Saboteur, destroy target artifact instead.
1/2

Feralheart Stag WW/GG
Creature - Elk Beast
Feralheart Stag has +0/+1 and First Strike if WW was paid for it.
Feralheart Stag has +1/+0 and Trample if GG was paid for it.
3/3

Agent Saboteur is simply too cheap, 2 mana to destroy an artifact is about as cheap as a sorcery gets, a 1/2 creature with a minor if potentially troublesome for the opponent other ability, i'd say he's at least a full mana if not possibly 2 undercosted

Feralheart Stag had me scrambling to check a few things, but yeah looks fine, though i'm not entirely sure the green green option is equal, well unless you have a giant growth or somthing lying around to take advantage.

JBPuffin

2017-07-11, 12:15 AM

Feralheart Stag had me scrambling to check a few things, but yeah looks fine, though i'm not entirely sure the green green option is equal, well unless you have a giant growth or somthing lying around to take advantage.

I'd argue it's the other way around, trample is quite a bit more dangerous than first strike.

sonofzeal

2017-07-11, 12:53 AM

Carl

2017-07-11, 01:13 AM

From my PoV trample gets the creature killed quickly after squeezing a few damage through, (in this case, there are times on higher power creatures that trample is downright terrifying), first strike keeps it alive to deal more damage in future, but this could be duels skewing my PoV ofc.

Carl

2017-07-11, 01:34 AM

Tree City

Compared to Khalni Garden, this seems... clunky but I guess balanced?

Communal Effort

Something inside me rebels at the idea of counting things in exile. Instead, have you considered making this an enchantment with a tap effect? "(t), W: put a 0/1 green and white Elf token named 'Elfish Communalist' into play // (t), (2)G: put a +1/+1 counter on each Elfish Communalist". A single copy is probably inferior to Bitterblossom overall, but multiple copies synergize.

Agent Saboteur

I'd love it, if there was a way to prevent the ability from triggering when you first cast it. The color identity makes sense, but I can't imagine it getting played without a hefty blue commitment since that's where most "exchange control" effects seem to be.

Feralheart Stag

So.... CMC 2 for a 3/4 First Strike, or 4/3 Trample? That seems a bit much. Garruck's Companion is 3/2 Trample for GG, and while that's not broken by any means, it's probably at the top end of French Vanilla Value. I don't know why you'd make an objectively stronger version with added versatility. If you make the base 2/2 it's still a solid card because you can either get a Garruck's Companion or (for WW) an equivalent-powered alternative. I'd only be comfortable with its current form with some downside stapled on (Legendary + comes into play tapped, maybe).

Tree City is a dual colour land, entering the battlefield tapped is their normal cost just for existing, so i threw the remains untapped as an extra downside as thats not somthing thats been done before, at that point finding a cool effect to apply was the thing to do.

Communal Effort, i really don't like counting things in exile zones either TBH, but thats a side effect of having flashback on it. If it can't count the exile zone our left with little reason to use it's flashback until you have 2 copies in your graveyard as it's just not cost efficient enough. I'm hesitant to use counters with white green atm as i think the set counter will turn out to be -1/-1, also the real core of it was the steady escalation as you got more copies from a bit meh but passable to "argh, argh, argh help me" levels for your opponent. I could see if i can fit a bit more text on there and bounce it back to the graveyard at your end step, but that would doubtless mean a slight hike to the flashback. 4 mana for a 1 shot 3 3/3 token pusher is powerful but with tapped entry is bearable the odd time, being able to basically repeat it every turn, that demands more.

Feralheart Stag i read as one green, one white or green, and one white (so CMC3), if it's 2 then yeah it's a bridge too far IMO. whatchwolf is an Uncommon 3/3 with only flavor text for g/w, and thats as good as it gets without some kind of upkeep or sacrifice effect.

Silfir

2017-07-11, 10:04 AM

Well, Fleecemane Lion (http://magiccards.info/ths/en/193.html) is as good as it gets for 2 CMC in Green/White, really. I do think 3/3 has to be the upper limit barring drawbacks. (There is a 5/4 for GG in Hour of Devastation, but that ultimately costs GGGG because of its drawback.)

Tree City looks straight up awful, I think. I can't imagine a deck that would feel good about playing one. If anyone comes up with something that hasn't been done before, there are two possible reasons: Nobody thought of it before, or they have, but didn't end up doing it because it's an awful idea. Most of the time, it's the latter.

I don't think Donating Agent Saboteurs is going to be any kind of worthwhile strategy - so I do think making it destroy an artifact as it enters the battlefield is a good idea, otherwise it'll never do much of anything. No idea what it needs to have affinity for artifacts for, though - it only has 1 generic mana cost anyway.

I suspect Communal Effort is a bit too hyper-charged, because of the exponentiality and the addition of Flashback. Maybe the fact that it's straight up awful if you only find one copy can keep it in line, but it doesn't take a lot of effort to end up with a ridiculous card.

solidork

2017-07-11, 01:11 PM

I said I would do some riffs on Exalted, so here they are.

Akrasan Battle-Priest 1W
Creature - Human Cleric
Exalted
When a creature you control attacks alone, gain 1 life. Then, if Akrasan Battle-Priest is attacking, gain 1 life.
1/2

Valeron Challenger 2GW
Creature - Human Knight
Exalted
Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, you may untap target creature. Then, if Valeron Challenger is attacking, that creature blocks this turn if able.
2/2

Inspiring Warleader 1WW
Creature - Human Knight
Exalted
Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, create a 1/1 white Soldier creature token that's tapped and attacking. Then, if Inspiring Warleader is attacking, you may exile another target creature you control and then return it to the battlefield tapped and attacking.
2/2

Blessed Sigil W
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature you control.
Exalted
Enchanted creature has Exalted

Benchwarmer W
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
Enchanted creature can't attack or block and has Exalted.

JBPuffin

2017-07-11, 01:42 PM

I said I would do some riffs on Exalted, so here they are.

Akrasan Battle-Priest 1W
Creature - Human Cleric
Exalted
When a creature you control attacks alone, gain 1 life. If Akrasan Battle-Priest is attacking, gain two life instead.
1/2

Valeron Challenger 2GW
Creature - Human Knight
Exalted
Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, you may untap target creature. If Valeron Challenger is attacking, that creature blocks this turn if able.
2/2

Inspiring Warleader 1WW
Creature - Human Knight
Exalted
Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, create a 1/1 white Soldier creature token that's tapped and attacking. If Inspiring Warleader is attacking, you may exile another target creature you control and then return it to the battlefield tapped and attacking.
2/2

Blessed Sigil W
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature you control.
Exalted
Enchanted creature has Exalted

Benchwarmer W
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
Enchanted creature can't attack or block and has Exalted.

Warleader breaks exalted (as in, none of your creatures get it) and needs an activation time on its ability, I think (when do I activate it? Can I activate it more than once? Does the second ability still trigger if I use the first?) The others work for the most part - I'd totally play the enchantments in an GW exalted deck, Benching my mana dorks and swinging away with massive Akrasan Squires. :smallcool:

solidork

2017-07-11, 02:31 PM

Warleader breaks exalted (as in, none of your creatures get it) and needs an activation time on its ability, I think (when do I activate it? Can I activate it more than once? Does the second ability still trigger if I use the first?) The others work for the most part - I'd totally play the enchantments in an GW exalted deck, Benching my mana dorks and swinging away with massive Akrasan Squires. :smallcool:

I was trying to be clever with the templating, but I may have been too clever. The intent for all of the cards is to give you a bonus whenever something attacks alone, but give you an extra special bonus when you are attacking alone with that creature. I'm gonna add a "then" to it, to make it more clear.

Warleader doesn't actually break exalted, since you never declared the token or flickered creature as attacking. The whole point is to benefit from exalted while still getting to attack with more than one creature, which... might be another example of being too clever for my own good.

JBPuffin

2017-07-11, 05:09 PM

Amechra

2017-07-11, 06:10 PM

Feralheart Stag

So.... CMC 2 for a 3/4 First Strike, or 4/3 Trample? That seems a bit much. Garruck's Companion is 3/2 Trample for GG, and while that's not broken by any means, it's probably at the top end of French Vanilla Value. I don't know why you'd make an objectively stronger version with added versatility. If you make the base 2/2 it's still a solid card because you can either get a Garruck's Companion or (for WW) an equivalent-powered alternative. I'd only be comfortable with its current form with some downside stapled on (Legendary + comes into play tapped, maybe).

CMC 3, actually.

You're thinking of W/G W/G, while this is W W/G G

EDIT: I'm also unsure as of why I gave Agent Saboteur Affinity. That was a screw-up on my part.

Carl

2017-07-11, 06:46 PM

I was trying to be clever with the templating, but I may have been too clever. The intent for all of the cards is to give you a bonus whenever something attacks alone, but give you an extra special bonus when you are attacking alone with that creature. I'm gonna add a "then" to it, to make it more clear.

Warleader doesn't actually break exalted, since you never declared the token or flickered creature as attacking. The whole point is to benefit from exalted while still getting to attack with more than one creature, which... might be another example of being too clever for my own good.

Cool ideas nonetheless :).

Well, Fleecemane Lion (http://magiccards.info/ths/en/193.html) is as good as it gets for 2 CMC in Green/White, really. I do think 3/3 has to be the upper limit barring drawbacks. (There is a 5/4 for GG in Hour of Devastation, but that ultimately costs GGGG because of its drawback.)

Tree City looks straight up awful, I think. I can't imagine a deck that would feel good about playing one. If anyone comes up with something that hasn't been done before, there are two possible reasons: Nobody thought of it before, or they have, but didn't end up doing it because it's an awful idea. Most of the time, it's the latter.

I don't think Donating Agent Saboteurs is going to be any kind of worthwhile strategy - so I do think making it destroy an artifact as it enters the battlefield is a good idea, otherwise it'll never do much of anything. No idea what it needs to have affinity for artifacts for, though - it only has 1 generic mana cost anyway.

I suspect Communal Effort is a bit too hyper-charged, because of the exponentiality and the addition of Flashback. Maybe the fact that it's straight up awful if you only find one copy can keep it in line, but it doesn't take a lot of effort to end up with a ridiculous card.

Yeah communal effort looked easy when i first came up with it but has got progressively harder to balance the more i've looked at it.

Tree City is an attempt to find a new mechanic for dual colour lands really. Lands however are some of the hardest things to balance when they're non-basic.

Really? That's bizarre. It's attacking, but you skipped the declare attack step which is when exalted activates? Wow.

Yeah somtimes you can do odd stuff like that. It's allways fun to find a special exception like that.

Silfir

2017-07-11, 07:22 PM

Really? That's bizarre. It's attacking, but you skipped the declare attack step which is when exalted activates? Wow.

A creature "attacks" if it's declared as an attacker; that's also when "when ... attacks" abilities trigger. A creature that is "put into play attacking" never attacked, because it never was declared as an attacker. The rule that explicitly states that this is the case is 508.4 (http://magiccards.info/rule/508-declare-attackers-step.html#rule-508-4). Bizarre or not, those are the rules.

JBPuffin

2017-07-11, 09:37 PM

A creature "attacks" if it's declared as an attacker; that's also when "when ... attacks" abilities trigger. A creature that is "put into play attacking" never attacked, because it never was declared as an attacker. The rule that explicitly states that this is the case is 508.4 (http://magiccards.info/rule/508-declare-attackers-step.html#rule-508-4). Bizarre or not, those are the rules.

Cool. Shows the last time I played Magic (before create was an action word >.>). Is there any other nifty stuff you can do with declared attackers vs created mid-attack-ers?

solidork

2017-07-11, 11:35 PM

Cool. Shows the last time I played Magic (before create was an action word >.>). Is there any other nifty stuff you can do with declared attackers vs created mid-attack-ers?

The main one that I have personally built decks around involves abusing the fact that the tokens essentially have haste, so it's one fewer hoop to jump through in order to benefit from cards like Primal Forcemage (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/212.html). I've been trying to build that deck since Time Spiral and it got like 1000x better when they printed Launch the Fleet (http://magiccards.info/jou/en/15.html). Mardu also has a lot of tools to do the same thing.

I was thinking, and you could use the Warleader to get around attack restrictions like Defender. "This guy is so inspiring, he got a mundane (but fancy) pile of rocks to come kick your ass!"

Svata

2017-07-11, 11:36 PM

Create was only made a word last year, so you're not too far back on that one.

solidork

2017-07-11, 11:47 PM

Create was only made a word last year, so you're not too far back on that one.

Yeah, cards that do this date back reasonably far, too. This (http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22to+the+battlefield+tapped+and+attac king%22+or+%28o%3A%22create%22+and+o%3A%22tapped+a nd+attacking%22%29&s=cname&v=card&p=2) should be most of them.

Carl

2017-07-12, 02:50 AM

Hmm got another idea for how to do the whole red/black slave thing. And thanks for acing as a sounding board for me everyone :).

Master: Whenever this creature activates an ability you may tap any number of other creatures you control, then copy the ability that many times paying any other costs for each copy. You may choose new targets for each of the copies.

My biggest complaint is it's still a bit wordy when putting on cards, i tried seeing how easy it was to put firebreather on a creature and it's going to basically cut of flavour text and severely limit other rules text which isn't good for providing ways for interaction at higher rarities. I'm wondering if anyone can see a way to reword it for better clarity. I'll be honest now i've done a bit of exploring of the green/white card design they're looking like they're going to work real well, not guaranteed ofc, and i'm still a way away from saying "go" on producing that section of a card file. But figuring out how to give the other two a unique and lore friendly flavour is resulting in a lot of banging head on wall.

solidork

2017-07-12, 07:26 AM

Carl

2017-07-12, 04:37 PM

The thing is, unless the creature taps to activate the ability or it has "activate this ability only once each turn" then you don't really benefit from copying the ability. You could have an ability where you tap a creature to get mana that you can only spend to activate the abilities of that particular creature.

In most of these, master is an ability word and not a keyword.

Firebreathing Slavedriver R
Creature - Elf Jerk
Master — Tap another untapped creature you control: Add R to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to activate abilities of ~.
R: ~ gets +1/+0 until end of turn. If you spent mana generated by a creature to activate this ability, ~ gains haste until end of turn.
1/1

Ehhh. This also synergizes with creatures that naturally make mana.

Firebreathing Slavedriver v2 R
Creature - Elf Jerk
Master — Tap another untapped creature you control: ~ gets +1/+0 and haste until end of turn.
R: ~ gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
1/1

I mean, it really could just be that simple — abilities that require you to tap other creatures you control is kinda like forcing them to work. You could combine it with the serf tokens from earlier so you are much more likely to have creatures to activate the abilities with.

Force into Service 2RB
Sorcery
Until end of turn, whenever you would tap a creature you control as part of paying the cost to activate the ability of a permanent you control, you may instead tap an untapped creature an opponent controls.

Not sure this actually works.

Well a couple of things. In line with a lot of abilities these days one of the things i was going to do generally was make most abilities require tapping, And because i reworked that bit of text a lot i moved the following bit of text off the master keyword, (to shorten the amount of text), there a key interaction is missing: "serf type creatures count as two". The problem i ran into was A) it was making the master word even longer text wise and even without that on the serf cards they where a bit wordy to be produced as tokens so i was going to handle that via a supertype again.

Your idea isn't a bad way though of handling things either. At the moment as i say i'm bouncing idea's about a lot. In fact i really like your second version a lot on reflection, it's more flexible in what effects i can tie to it whilst still being short.

The main part is to ensure some backwards interaction from the right kinds of tappable target.

Thanks again for helping :).

solidork

2017-07-14, 09:49 AM

Library Collapse 1UR
Sorcery
Library Collapse deals 2 damage to each creature. If Library Collapse does 10 or more damage, draw a card, then discard a card.

Carl

2017-07-14, 10:47 AM

Library Collapse 1UR
Sorcery
Library Collapse deals 2 damage to each creature. If Library Collapse does 10 or more damage, draw a card, then discard a card.

Hmm, i'm not sure how i feel about this one, Pyroclasm is a thing for just 2 mana, on the other hand i have to admit, i'm not a fan of a card that is that cheap and can so easily board wipe so many builds in a colour thats king of rapid creature popping.

But taking that as a basis and remembering multi-colour is almost allways cheaper i'd be tempted to go just UR and straight up add "draw a card" on the end. If your set on a damage limit i'd up it a bit to say 14, (remember it hits your own, the odds of not having 5 creatures between you past a fairly early point are low), and let it put the card into play if it's a permanant with CMC 3 or less.

solidork

2017-07-14, 02:06 PM

Hmm, i'm not sure how i feel about this one, Pyroclasm is a thing for just 2 mana, on the other hand i have to admit, i'm not a fan of a card that is that cheap and can so easily board wipe so many builds in a colour thats king of rapid creature popping.

But taking that as a basis and remembering multi-colour is almost allways cheaper i'd be tempted to go just UR and straight up add "draw a card" on the end. If your set on a damage limit i'd up it a bit to say 14, (remember it hits your own, the odds of not having 5 creatures between you past a fairly early point are low), and let it put the card into play if it's a permanant with CMC 3 or less.

Yeah, the damage threshold was intended to be the interesting thing about the card. I tend to lean towards small incremental advantages, but maybe it would be more interesting as a big splashy card?

Fires of Creation 6RR
Sorcery
Fires of Creation deals 7 damage to each creature and planeswalker.
If Fires of Creation deals at least 70 damage, add RRRRRRRR to your mana pool.

Carl

2017-07-15, 09:07 AM

Yeah, the damage threshold was intended to be the interesting thing about the card. I tend to lean towards small incremental advantages, but maybe it would be more interesting as a big splashy card?

Fires of Creation 6RR
Sorcery
Fires of Creation deals 7 damage to each creature and planeswalker.
If Fires of Creation deals at least 70 damage, add RRRRRRRR to your mana pool.

I think either or both could work with a tad of adjustment on the first one. This i'd just replace all that mana with untapping all your lands. It's an expensive enough and tough enough bar to meet that i don't think there's any serious balance issues with it, especially given red's typical late game weaknesses, (somthing wotc have admitted they're trying to address for the sake of commander and similar longer game formats).

Amechra

2017-07-15, 02:33 PM

Here are a few that mess around with the rules:

Psyche Warden 1U
Creature - Vedalken Wizard
Cards in hands lose all abilities.
1/2

All-Seeing Sphinx 4UW
Creature - Sphinx
Flying
Whenever an effect causes a player to reveal a card in their hand, that player gains 1 life.
Cards in your hand have Forecast U: Draw a card, then discard a card.
4/6

Mindroil Magus 1UR
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
Play with the top card of your library revealed.
UR, discard a card: Scry 1, then draw a card if the top card of your library shares a color with the discarded card. If it doesn't, deal 1 damage to target creature or player.
1/1

Empty Eyes 2BR
Enchantment
Your maximum hand size is 0.
You can't play lands.
If you would discard a land card, instead put it onto the battlefield tapped and draw a card.

Worldbreaker Shaman 2RR
Creature - Viashino Shaman
Whenever a land is put into your graveyard from anywhere, add RR to your mana pool.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, sacrifice it unless you pay R.
2/2

Silfir

2017-07-15, 10:06 PM

All-Seeing Sphinx 4UW
Creature - Sphinx
Flying
Whenever a player reveals a card in their hand, they gain 1 life.
Cards in your hand have Foresight U: Draw a card, then discard a card.
4/6

Getting very amusing mental images of magic players constantly revealing and unrevealing their hands to attain immunity to damage. You'd probably have to go with "Whenever an effect causes a player to reveal a card in their hand, that player gains 1 life".

It's decently well-balanced, but the use of Foresight here is roundabout and ultimately unnecessary. "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may reveal a card in your hand. If you do, draw a card, then discard a card." accomplishes the same without having to grant abilities to the cards in your hand.

EDIT: Hang on, the ability isn't even called Foresight - it's Forecast.

I get the impression sometimes you're quite fond of having cards give other cards abilities - I think that's intended as a last resort, templating-wise.

Mindroil Magus 1UR
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
Play with the top card of your library revealed.
UR, discard a card: Scry 1, then draw a card if the top card of your library shares a color with the discarded card. If it doesn't, deal 1 damage to target creature or player.
1/1

I'm not sure I like this fish guy. The "Scry 1" bit might as well not be there, since you'd likely not risk activating the ability at all if the card on top wasn't already the color you need (In that sense, the card is inherently dissynergistic - it lets you see the top card and make use of the fact that you can see the top card, but using the Scry negates the entire point of being able to see the top card!). The card ends up being a rummager that only works sometimes and costs mana, and if it doesn't, it's a very underpowered spellshaper. Discarding cards to deal 1 damage for UR is no way to get ahead.

I'd definitely lose the Scry 1, it just feels misplaced.

Empty Eyes 2BR
Enchantment
Your maximum hand size is 0.
You can't play lands.
If you would discard a land card, instead put it onto the battlefield tapped and draw a card.

Seems wildly unplayable. Let's make sure I understand this: You play it. Then you reach the cleanup step and discard whatever's left in your hand. If you discard a land, you immediately replace it, so you have to keep discarding until you were able to discard enough nonlands to get your hand empty. At the end of this process, you've likely ramped yourself by a whole lot - but your payoff for all that mana is either already on the battlefield somehow (shades?) or you need to topdeck it from that point forward. (And if you topdeck a land, you're screwed - you have to discard it in the cleanup step, and discard lands until you lose your *next* nonland card.) That just seems very hard to make use of.

Worse yet, if your opponent manages to make you draw enough cards, you may run out of nonlands in your deck and then deck yourself during your own cleanup step.

That said, you could probably make a sweet combo deck with this, Laboratory Maniac, Treasure Hunt and a *ton* of lands. The card is nothing if not funny and imaginative!

Worldbreaker Shaman 2RR
Creature - Viashino Shaman
Whenever a land enters your graveyard from anywhere, add RRR to your mana pool.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, sacrifice it unless you pay R.
2/2

This one's all kinds of broken, surely - you play it on turn four, then turn 5 you play Flagstones of Trokair, tap it, sacrifice it, tap and sacrifice the incoming Plains for good measure, and end up with 12 Mana (2 White) to do with as you see fit? Sign me up! (Play Crucible of Worlds on turn 3 as well, to do it all over again every turn! Well, until you run out of basic Plains.)

The high mana cost - 2RR for a 2/2 - probably keeps it somewhat sane, but this is amazing fuel for a deck based around XR spells like Banefire or Earthquake.

Also run a Harmless Offering so you can gift it to a deck that can't make red mana, then Ghost Quarter them until they cry.

I think I like this card a lot. It's probably too broken to live, but it's fun, too!

tgva8889

2017-07-15, 10:13 PM

I think a large part of the reason we won't see Psyche Warden is that it's confusing. You probably want to just reword it to "Players can't play activated (or triggered, if you care) abilities of cards in their hand" so that it's clear that it doesn't do anything to, say, the spells in your hand (because it doesn't for most spells, spells will regain their abilities upon leaving your hand and going onto the stack when you begin to cast them and thus you'll still be able to do things like pay kicker costs).

All-Seeing Sphinx is just sweet. I like it, it's compact and not too wordy to get your design across.

Mindroil Magus has a weird problem: the ability can be countered if your opponent makes the target illegal in response, which means you won't even scry. I suggest instead altering the wording to follow the Heart-Piercer Manticore phrasing to avoid this weirdness:

UR, discard a card: Scry 1. When you do, draw a card if the top card of your library shares a color with the discarded card. Otherwise, deal 1 damage to target creature or player.

Empty Eyes also seems hilariously broken with a wide variety of effects, the first one I thought of being any free discard outlet and any Ravnica bounceland. If you're fine with that cool I guess.

Worldbreaker Shaman is also hilariously broken, immediately my mind went to Seismic Assault and fetchlands being absurd. I believe the proper wording there is "Whenever a land is put into your graveyard from anywhere".

Svata

2017-07-15, 10:33 PM

tgva8889

2017-07-16, 12:00 AM

Well, it doesn't technically tap for mana, but it's probably broken. As it turns out, a Locus that does almost anything meant that Cloudpost had to be super banned forever from Modern, so I imagine more locuses might push that card even further, although probably not too overpowered in Legacy since Wasteland is great and there's probably other things people can do to stop you from winning with Cloudpost.

Svata

2017-07-16, 12:51 AM

Well it was twitter, and they said they'd have put T: add C to your mana pool, but they ran out of space.

JBPuffin

2017-07-16, 12:57 AM

So, I saw the most busted idea for a card today.

Glistenpost
Land — Locus
When Glistenpost enters the battlefield, put a -1/-1 counter on target creature for each Locus on the battlefield.

Here was my response "Jesus. Uncounterable, free, unconditional (in the decks that would run it) kill that gets past indestructible? AND taps for mana? Bah-roken"

It would suck to get this on Draft Day, and if the set doesn't use Loci at all you're screwed...but it also could wreak hell on Constructed, so it would never be printed. If it doesn't tap for mana, it's much more niche.

Amechra

2017-07-16, 04:45 AM

Psyche Warden: It's literally the same wording as Yixlid Jailer. It should be fine.

All-Seeing Sphinx: Silfir's right - I do like giving other cards abilities. It makes certain interactions cleaner, in my mind - and it isn't as if there's no precedent.

Mindmoil Mage: I think I'm putting this one back into the idea bin for a while - I might do something more deck-thinning, like letting you put cards in the graveyard instead of putting them on the bottom of your library (to better interact with Scry and similar effects).

Empty Eyes: Is currently busted, since I didn't actually know that cleanup "looped". The intent was that you'd get cards to replace the discarded lands, leaving you with a few cards in hand at the end of the turn. Would making the hand size 2 (like Null Profusion) work better, do you think?

Worldbreaker Shaman: I toned it down to RR instead of RRR. Other than that... Worldbreaker Shaman would probably be a Mythic Rare. It's also probably the reddest card I've ever designed.

Silfir

2017-07-16, 06:04 AM

There's a more straightforward way to fix Empty Eyes: the "old style" cantrip "draw a card at the beginning of the next turn's upkeep", as found on Mishra's Bauble.

tgva8889

2017-07-16, 10:02 AM

Psyche Warden: It's literally the same wording as Yixlid Jailer. It should be fine.

Yes but the graveyard is not a hidden zone and it's not a zone you can normally play spells from. You can't, for example, use the flashback abilities of cards in your graveyard while Yixlid Jailer is in play, because they don't have those abilities, but nothing is stopping me from casting spells from my hand and paying their Buyback costs while Psyche Warden is in play, and that's a little weird. I can easily imagine a lot of people just assuming that this card makes your opponent not able to cast spells because they don't have any abilities, which is not at all what it does. Up to you I suppose, the card does technically do some things that the one I suggested does not, but "loses all abilities" is a weird set of rules text so you have to be prepared for all the implications.

Carl

2017-07-16, 12:42 PM

Cool idea's there, i think everyone's said anything i'd have to say though. This post is going to be a tad big. I've gotten a good way through exploratory design on the G/W/R factions of elves and want to basically run a bunch of cards past you. I'm not looking for specific feedback., (though i'm happy to hear it), as much as your feelings on what theme's are becoming apparent. Have i got enough theme in place basically. I will provide a little "what i was aiming for" at the end, though some elements have allready been discussed ofc. As well as note a concern or two of my own vis a vis some things.

http://i.imgur.com/5Y7jUY8.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/YZL8c3A.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/7jPA5EF.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/GxUYwhi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ipJhUex.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/R9Lh7rG.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/4ZHJSxY.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ecNcEP4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lIRxScW.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/M49d2XS.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/Z9R5ZFk.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/QlBVThj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/immqcdA.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/HfLzR11.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/O0Kq11u.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/znPUgHi.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/Kmoka6k.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/lrOpXs6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3ABUQpM.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/1cPYuZm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/IEVDOMo.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/doODcL1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/umwqpgY.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/lZMgNob.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/8pkm31P.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/5miMbDH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3R2IH2Y.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/3Fw74yc.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/DowIt1d.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/5u9uHVQ.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/fM98OxU.jpg

As a quick note the Rares and Mythics are a mixture of stuff kicked upstairs and progressions on sub-theme elements (like the wardens as a lore element), setup at lower rarities. So whilst their not unimportant to the themes in the elast be careful how much you read into them. Also some cards will have to have flavour text cut, (and some allready have), i'm trying to keep as much of it on though for obvious reasons.

Obviously the core theme is communal and the lifegain it drives, with that further reinforced by lifegain triggered effects on cards as well.

Whats probably a tad less obvious at first glance is the aggression vs defence theme, mostly because i don't have a huge number of beast of treefolk creatures made yet. What i realised pretty quick sharp was that if there was going to be this much lifegain going on i needed to make sure the player with that lifegain played a long gameplan victory, using the lifegain in part to stall out that long. Equally other stalling needed to be primarily of the slow the opponent down variety, not the coldcock him into the ground variety. Thus a number of defender creatures and most elves are low P high T on the P/T ratio's. More expensive and higher rarity cards bring more of the offense with it focused disproportionately on the legendaries, the beats, and the treefolk. This is also why there's a CMC 6 8/8 vanillia at common, whilst the mana curve on that may be pushing it too far i knew i needed at least one big brutal kaiju scale war machine, (figuratively speaking), to let limited players have good odds of drawing a smasher even at common. You'll probably also notice most of the more aggressive stuff is either tri-mana or contains red and 1 other colour.

The single biggest bear is that Communal is just a tad too big text wise, i'm giving serious consideration on letting it just give life off every permanent with communal everytime it triggers instead of just the highest values, just to get a bit more space back. Even so i'm probably going to have to restrict commons to either evergreen + communal, or evergreen + lifegain interaction, though the former needs to be more prevalent as the latter doesn't work without the former which is a concern for limited. I'll admit it's a nuisance and is likely to result in a lot of commons getting kicked upstairs and oversaturating uncommon where the bulk of the truly offensive stuff needs to go. Even then i'm worried about average text length.

toapat

2017-07-16, 01:38 PM

Silfir

2017-07-16, 01:45 PM

toapat

2017-07-16, 02:04 PM

@ toapat:

They both seem like very pushed mythic rares. I think Vitoria with her personal double-striking Umezawa's Jitte might be a step too far. The Thopter-maker is definitely a bomb, but since Wizards seemed perfectly willing to print the Hour of Devastation God cards, it seems almost tame by comparison. 0/6 might be a bit too much, it dodges a lot of removal up there.

Ideally I think you should link your card images with IMG tags - puts the cards directly into your post. Use spoiler boxes to save room if there are too many.

1: ya i realized when i checked my post that i used URL by habit rather than image tags, i fixed that already.

2: Bolded part: I see what you did there

3: Vytoria Sunstorm literally did start as Boros Swiftblade + Jitte. there was 3 itterations where she could literally Punch the Helicarrier to death Ala Captain America. I dont really think shes even as pushed as Death Shadow though

edit: and neither of them are as pushed as GRRM

multi edit: Oh, i think i did nerf the Helicarrier in the files to an 0/4

Silfir

2017-07-16, 02:51 PM

toapat

2017-07-16, 02:59 PM

I understood GRRM to be a joke card ;)

Vitoria plays nothing like Death's Shadow, that's not a good comparison. Jitte, on the other hand, is banned in Modern... No idea how she'd work out, she might just be pushed, not broken. People do tend to carry more creature removal than they do artifact removal.

Vicky was designed during OGW, and even then i felt she played kinda like a Boggles creature. Now we have blessed alliance, Condemn, and Fatal push for creature removal, and the only protection she naturally has is double poke. If she is overpushed, its simply because i wanted to make her for a deck archetype that should but doesnt exist

edit: also the 2 life per counter comes from simply needing there to be a reason to use the second state without it being protection or indestructible or reduce damage. 2 life per can certainly add up, but 2 life per is also not a great value

Eurus

2017-07-16, 05:57 PM

I understood GRRM to be a joke card ;)

Vitoria plays nothing like Death's Shadow, that's not a good comparison. Jitte, on the other hand, is banned in Modern... No idea how she'd work out, she might just be pushed, not broken. People do tend to carry more creature removal than they do artifact removal.

I'm not sure comparing her to jitte is valid. The difference between an equipment that you can stick on any creature you want and a 1/2 body that you have to keep alive and deal combat damage with is huge. For one thing, she has no evasion and gets killed by any moderately-statted blocker, so actually attacking with her is a pain. Her ability to potentially ping down creatures (or just face for 4 damage per swing as a 2-drop) is powerful if you can stick some form of evasion on her, but then, she's vulnerable to pretty much any removal that you care to run.

toapat

2017-07-16, 06:06 PM

Her ability to potentially ping down creatures (or just face for 4 damage per swing as a 2-drop) is powerful if you can stick some form of evasion on her, but then, she's vulnerable to pretty much any removal that you care to run.

She can only burn down creatures with the blaze counters

Carl

2017-07-17, 12:27 AM

@ Carl:

The power level on these cards seems completely off the hook. What kind of mass removal is going to be there to handle hordes of undercosted tokens?

I feel like there's way too much happening on the commons, and the Communal keyword seems too widespread. I feel like some sanity could be restored by removing "Communal 0" from all the cards that have it. It'll also be hard to draft decks with any kind of flexibility because of the preponderance of Gold cards with restrictive mana costs. That's particularly worrisome when it comes to the commons; these are supposed to be relatively easy to fit into many different types of deck. That's not to say you can't print multi-color commons - but this many?

I suppose the intent to is to turn this into a three-color archetype format - Naya, Grixis, Esper, Jund and Bant - in that case I think it's definitely helpful to look at the Alara Block and the Tarkir block for some orientation.

Thematically, this looks more or less like the Selesnya Guild on steroids. That might be another place to look for orientation.

I would also avoid triple hybrid costs and mixing hybrid costs with full mana symbols, just from an aesthetical standpoint.

What do the noncreature spells look like?

Just out of curiosity - how often have you played Limited so far?

Hmm, actually i'd based all my token costs off each other and i had, i thought based the initial one (To Arms) on an existing card and just given it a light buff to account for the multi-colour nature, (which pretty much allways packs a discount in), but a quick nosey shows i somehow misread 5 as 4. Probably because i was tired when i wrote that thing, i find i get more creative when tired, but i tend to make these kind of snafu's more too. The reference card is knight watch.

Communal 0 was somthing i was planning to cut back on but i absolutely don't want to remove it from everything that has it. Without it the theme isn't common anymore because medium to high mana cards aren't, (pardon the pun), common at common, and you don't get positive communal values till at least CMC3 outside of the healer sequence so without a number of instances of communal 0 at common the entire theme stops working because there's no lifegain mechanic present there outside of a small handful of cards. The odds that limited will fail to pull any positive communal cards should be pretty low and if everything else works the odds that constructed would not want to play some of the medium cost communal cards in their decks are low, but having a few cards i your deck which means 1 or 2 out at a time with a positive ciommunal valu does not a theme make. Those couple of cards need the rest of the cards to drive their mechanic, to be enablers and triggerer's for it.

The multi-colour part is completely intentional. None of the elven segments of society work as a mono colour period. Some of the beasts in this lot might fit mono-colour, but they'd be the only faction with any mono-colour in them so it wouldn't work thematically across all 3 factions. Though i have found i can almost design each faction as a seperate set because of how much interaction they have, (or rather don't have), with each other. This is my faction notes for them:

Green/White primary colours. Focuses on community, provides all factions with food, water, most of the healers, as well as raw goods like leather stone, wood, e.t.c. The more someone dedicates themselves to helping the community the further they progress in the social hierarchy.

Has a Red secondary to represent their willingness to respect individual right to choose not to advance beyond a certain point, not force conformity, e.t.c.

Mostly elves with a strong defensive lifegain theme, but has lords and powerful beasts as well as board wipe in the later game. Relies on stalling out the game until it can pull a win condition by refusing to die.

Non-creature spells will be mostly concentrated at higher rarities, a few at uncommon and the rest as large scale game winning effects, (bombs i believe is the proper term), at rare or mythic. Common especially and some Uncommon will be token producers. That dosen;t mean no no-token makers at common just that token producers will be the more ahem, common.

As far as limited, duels sort of does it as a matter of course, you start with a very limited number of cards to work with and have to unlock the rest, otoh it tends to mix a lot of sets together so cards often don't interact well if at all. So i'm interpolating my experiance there with commentary from the many making magic articles :).

Hmm possibble way round my issues that gets a load of rules text off the commons. Make Communal a subtype for all card types and then make communal:

Communal N: (When a communal type permanent enters the battlefield or a non-permanent communal type spell is cast gain N life.)

Basically an Ally mechanic vairent. Thoughts?

Carl

2017-07-17, 05:53 AM

Just discovered this thread so not going to post reviews just yet

Ok, 3 cards i would like to share, 2 concept and 1 joke

http://i.imgur.com/1tc7kE6.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6f8YRxy.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/eauJKO1.jpg

Note: Vytoria is an Elf specifically so that its not a "Good Tribe" for the colors

Edit: damnit i used URL links not Image tags

Heh i like i admit i'm not the best to review these but outside of some combo potentials i don't see any extreme stuff on the two serious cards. Not saying they don't need adjustment, (but i think what needs to be said on hat has allready been said), just nothing outside of that jumps out at me. And they're both cool idea's.

Svata

2017-07-17, 06:45 AM

Carl

2017-07-17, 07:05 AM

Simplest answer if your really worried. Add:

At each end step, remove all blaze counters from this card.

That said it strikes me as being a lot weaker overall because it's on a low power chassis with low toughness and no innate way to boost that and the anti-creature effect can't cut down the damage it takes when it attacks, so anything 2/3 or better can kill it if it isn't pumped. Pumping could allow some nice tricks, but then your paying extra for the privilege of doing that. Jite could pump itself and could be put on much more capable base chassis. It was also dirt cheap by comparison being colourless, even if RW in a dual colour deck isn't super hard to get. Also jitte with double strike could get 4 counters a turn.

solidork

2017-07-17, 08:34 AM

Vytoria is perfectly fine, in my opinion.

Toxic Fumes BR
Sorcery
Choose one —
- Toxic Fumes deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
- Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose a creature card with toughness 3 or less from it. That player discards that card.

Bombs Away! 2RR
Sorcery
Replicate - Sacrifice a non-creature artifact
Bombs Away! deals 2 damage to target creature or player. Create a colorless Bomb artifact token with "When Bomb enters the battlefield, sacrifice it. If you do, Bomb deals 2 damage to each creature."

Carl

2017-07-17, 09:13 AM

JBPuffin

2017-07-17, 10:27 AM

Yeah, Vytoria's not busted. Jitte is so good because it has three effects which all kill things; Vytoria's kill Route is creature only and slower. The lifegain side is a nice white twist and provides some player defense. The ability also makes it a target for Bolt/Shock/Spray/whatever's legal removal in the format because so many players will overreact and think Jitte...

Toxic Fumes is Lightning Bolt+Despise variant; I think it needs to be Shock+Despise variant to be Standard-printable.

Silfir

2017-07-17, 10:33 AM

As far as limited, duels sort of does it as a matter of course, you start with a very limited number of cards to work with and have to unlock the rest, otoh it tends to mix a lot of sets together so cards often don't interact well if at all. So i'm interpolating my experiance there with commentary from the many making magic articles :).

In the best possible words - try to participate in a Limited event in a local tournament. (Sealed is easier to get into, but Booster Draft is what is played most.) Magic Duels plays nothing like Limited; it's more or less Block Constructed. To understand how commons, uncommons and rares need to be designed and how the design of a card impacts the Limited formats, particularly Booster Draft, you really need to actually *play* it a couple of times.

A set-defining keyword ability does *not* have to be printed on many commons to establish a significant presence. There are 55 common creatures in Kaladesh, and only seven of those have the Fabricate keyword, for example; two each for green, black and white, and one artifact creature. Even in Shards of Alara, in which Exalted was the signature keyword of the Bant shard (White, Blue, Green), there are six common creatures with Exalted (out of 53), and Exalted, like Communal, is a keyword that gets better the more you have of it. (Also worth noting - even though Alara was heavily three-color-archetype-focused, only one of the Exalted commons in Shards was a multicolored card. I think you're leaning far too heavily on multi-colored costs.)

If you've read Making Magic articles, have you started out designing the set with a design skeleton? That would probably be quite useful to share.

solidork

2017-07-17, 10:34 AM

The first one is cool, the second i think creating a token like that is excessively complex, unless your opponent has instant speed artifact destruction available it won't do much that just having it as a simpler written effect won't. At the same time that replicaite cost worries me, it has a lot of potential to really spiral, at the same time it's not a trivial cost to meet in quantity. It's probably balanced though, red really isn't my best colour tbh.

Yeah, it could be simpler, but where is the fun in that? :D The replicate cost was originally just some mana, but I decided to just go for it and play the flavor to the hilt.

Twist the Flesh 2UB
Instant
Transform target creature. If you can't, that creature gets +4/-4 until end of turn.

Bale Lightning BBB
Creature - Elemental Horror
Haste, Trample
At the beginning of each end step, sacrifice a creature.
6/1

Vhati, the Redeemed WBG
Creature - Human Warrior
Exalted
Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, the base power of creatures defending player controls becomes 1 until end of turn. Then, if Vhati is attacking, he gains deathtouch until end of turn.
4/4

Edit: For reference, since he's super old: http://magiccards.info/tpr/en/214.html

toapat

2017-07-17, 12:02 PM

I'm gonna be honest. Vytoria reminds me a lot of this card. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=81979&type=card And everyone knows Jitte is BUSTED. So I'm pretty worried about it.

Jitte generates 2 counters per Hit, and does both self +2/+2, can kill indestructible creatures with the -1/-1 although it still has the 2 life per counter Vicky basically generates a quarter the damage

Vytoria is perfectly fine, in my opinion.

Toxic Fumes BR
Sorcery
Choose one —
- Toxic Fumes deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
- Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose a creature card with toughness 3 or less from it. That player discards that card.

Bombs Away! 2RR
Sorcery
Replicate - Sacrifice a non-creature artifact
Bombs Away! deals 2 damage to target creature or player. Create a colorless Bomb artifact token with "When Bomb enters the battlefield, sacrifice it. If you do, Bomb deals 2 damage to each creature."

is Toxic Fumes supposed to be CmC 3 or less? the card is slightly overpowered but I dont imagine anyone taking it over K-command ever

generally the only problem with Bombs Away is that its a Clue Synergy card

solidork

2017-07-17, 12:37 PM

is Toxic Fumes supposed to be CmC 3 or less? the card is slightly overpowered but I dont imagine anyone taking it over K-command ever

The idea is that you are sort of dealing 3 damage to a creature in their hand.

generally the only problem with Bombs Away is that its a Clue Synergy card

Yeah, I noticed the clue synergy but decided it was probably fine.

Svata

2017-07-17, 12:58 PM

Jitte generates 2 counters per Hit, and does both self +2/+2, can kill indestructible creatures with the -1/-1 although it still has the 2 life per counter Vicky basically generates a quarter the damage

She also generates 2 counters. She has double strike. But yeah, she's less unbalanced. I just can't help but see similarities.

toapat

2017-07-17, 01:08 PM

She also generates 2 counters. She has double strike. But yeah, she's less unbalanced. I just can't help but see similarities.

because the card literally started as Boros Swiftblade + Jitte.

Carl

2017-07-17, 04:48 PM

In the best possible words - try to participate in a Limited event in a local tournament. (Sealed is easier to get into, but Booster Draft is what is played most.) Magic Duels plays nothing like Limited; it's more or less Block Constructed. To understand how commons, uncommons and rares need to be designed and how the design of a card impacts the Limited formats, particularly Booster Draft, you really need to actually *play* it a couple of times.

A set-defining keyword ability does *not* have to be printed on many commons to establish a significant presence. There are 55 common creatures in Kaladesh, and only seven of those have the Fabricate keyword, for example; two each for green, black and white, and one artifact creature. Even in Shards of Alara, in which Exalted was the signature keyword of the Bant shard (White, Blue, Green), there are six common creatures with Exalted (out of 53), and Exalted, like Communal, is a keyword that gets better the more you have of it. (Also worth noting - even though Alara was heavily three-color-archetype-focused, only one of the Exalted commons in Shards was a multicolored card. I think you're leaning far too heavily on multi-colored costs.)

If you've read Making Magic articles, have you started out designing the set with a design skeleton? That would probably be quite useful to share.

First. Like i said Exploratory design stage. I'm not yet at the design skeleton stage, though i'm getting close to doing the G/W/R section of that.

The thing to understand is that in making magic article terms this is an entirely top down design. The lore element that it all grows out of was written for other purposes and repurposed, but a couple of characters aside created to demonstrate core concepts of the factions i'd only filled into the medium detail level. Doing that constrains what i can do heavily because whilst all the possibble roles details thereof of individual members of elvish society haven;t been hammered out, the outline they have to fit into has.

When i first tried this project 6 months ago i tried starting with a design skeleton and it went nowhere because i was too busy trying to hammer out what mechanics i was going to use and simultaneously figure out how those mechanics fit into the set design and what lore concepts in detail i had to work with to justify this or that mechanic and what mechanics i couldn't justify, and so on and so forth. I was to busy trying to figure out what i could do, what i couldn't do, and what i needed to do, in relation to the lore to really work with a design skeleton yet. So what i'm doing now is going "ok, what types of elves exist within this faction and what kind of effects can i put on them". Then when i've done a silly number of cards covering everything i can think of i can sit down, do the design skeleton for that faction, (before i started this after the 6 month break i didn't even realise i could treat each factions as a sub-set, thats something i've only realised very recently), figure out what i need as opposed to what i can do, and then see where mechanical needs align with the lore and figure out how it pieces together. Many cards will get the boot and become exploratory design cards only, others will get a rework because their lore concept can be tweaked to fit a different role mechanically. And a few new idea will probably occur to em along the way.

I'm also getting to see potential interactions and how that can play off. For example i had the idea in the back of my mind early on that i'd want to keep the lifegain cards low power high toughness focused to stop aggression and lifegain together, i hadn't thought about how i needed to bear that in mind across the whole faction till i started laying things out, doing that helped me spot the potential problem in a way i couldn't before.

That top down design element is also why there's all these multi-colour around. It isn't that i'm in love with multicolour, so much as my lore concept has an elvish society thats composed of 3 archetypal factions and i've defined them i specific yet at the same time subtle ways philosophically. And the occasional oddball aside elve's within the overarching tends to strongly associate with just the one faction, but each faction concept break down into multi-colour, oddly though this wasn't intentional when writing the lore, two primary and one secondary colour per faction. The thing is a cards colour needs to reflect what they are lore wise in a top down design, you'd never, (as an outside example), make a borg drone mono-colour, because the borg collective's outlook on the world around it just doesn't fit neatly into a single colour. You could potentially try and make a mono colour borg if you really wanted, but you'd lose most of the borg flavour in the process. I could certainly move to more hybrid mana ofc if that would help, but the dual and somtimes tri-colour nature of cards is very deliberate, exactly which colours they get tends to boil down to core concepts present for that type or specific individual with a bit of a sequencing factor.

As far as limited goes it would really help if you just explained better. I got into mtg via duels precisely because outside of hearing about it on occasion and running across a couple of the tie in novels in by reading i've never seen or heard anything related to actually playing it in the real world like ever. So the odds of me getting to actually play anything outside duels is virtually nil. I didn't even get into duels specifically for mtg, but rather i was looking for suggestion in a steam summer sale and someone recommended it, and then it got my creative juices going, and in case you haven't noticed i like doing this kind of thing for fun. I get the feeling from your comments i'm missing somthing that isn't being enunciated in the descriptions of how limited works, (which to me sounds exactly like first boot up of duels 2015, i.e. get a bunch of random cards from a small number of of boosters and build a deck around the contents, in some cases passing cards you don't want to another player). My main concerns between that and what's stated and implied in the making articles is that A) the power level to CMC ratio needs to be kept reasonable. B) Anything that exists at common needs to be answerable by a common. You shouldn't need a higher rarity to deal with things. C) there needs to be care given to the inevitability of random draws producing a mix of colours and how that plays out in terms of quantities of playable cards.

A) hasn;t gone perfectly, whilst i've tried to keep an eye on this by comparing equivalent cards where i can find them,the screw up on to arms has thrown all my token generation out of whack for example. B) is basically the thought behind Eldar Treekin, all the low to medium cost lifegain and token creation at common needs an answer. It shouldn't be the only one, but it's the only one i'd done so far, i was focusing on the elves in my exploration so far, non-elves are attempts to cover area's the elves don;t to see how that looks. C) is a potential issue, but i think the fact there are only three factions offsets a lot as it means a lot more in each colour combo in any given hypothetical booster, using HoD rarity ratios as a baseline and ignoring colourless it works out at 25 common, 22-23 uncommon, 15 rare, and 5 mythic per faction. Add in colour sharing amongst factions and you've got a better situation than first glance might suggest.

For themes, this may be a tad less coherent, getting tired and about to go get a nap, but i thought the entire point of making a theme common was to make it so a typical booster would almost allways contain an example? Thats basically exactly the criticism one of the making magic articles leveled at Champions of Kamigawa, the Legendary matters theme was mostly invisible because it did not extend down to common so players could open multiple boosters and never notice it because it wasn't turning up enough, (or rather at all), in the commons to result in enough cards with it turning up in even a moderate number of booster openings to make it clear it was a central piece of the set in that colour or colour combo. I admit i'm genuinely confused now. I don't get how exalted is a bant theme if it basically on average will turn up 1 booster in two on a single card total, (based on the total of 107 commons in the set), Okay only a handful of those will be bant, (28 in one of the three colours, some of which i don't doubt are non-bant stuff), so the ratio isn't entirely that bad, but unless your looking at what % of Bant specific cards have Exalted it's still not exactly going to turn up a lot. Your average player probably won't even notice it's there, which is the exact opposite of what's supposed to happen with a theme. Like i said i'm confused. As a p.s on the theme point, the stuff i presented is heavily elf slanted because thats the section i've been exploring, i expect to add plenty more beasts and treekin before i'm done, i just haven;t explored them too heavily beyond a few basic starting points, some of which will probably go away, (Wolf Pack will need a change for example, 3/3 for GW is reasonable, (It's a reprint of watchwolf by another name really), but too aggressive for the price point for the set concepts level of these colors. ed can get away with a bit more aggression but even that needs to be kept an eye on. But basically whilst i hadn't intended to cut back as far as your suggestions, the ratio of communal to non-communal is much higher than i'd expect final design skeleton form to fill out at.

Silfir

2017-07-17, 06:09 PM

As far as limited goes it would really help if you just explained better.

I fear the only thing that will really help is to actually play it.

I don't get how exalted is a bant theme if it basically on average will turn up 1 booster in two on a single card total, (based on the total of 107 commons in the set), Okay only a handful of those will be bant, (28 in one of the three colours, some of which i don't doubt are non-bant stuff), so the ratio isn't entirely that bad, but unless your looking at what % of Bant specific cards have Exalted it's still not exactly going to turn up a lot. Your average player probably won't even notice it's there, which is the exact opposite of what's supposed to happen with a theme.

Because of the way booster draft works. There are not enough Exalted cards in any given Booster Draft pod - consisting of 8 players - to allow every one of those players to draft Bant, and build a deck with an Exalted theme. But there are enough for one or two of those players to draft Bant colors and end up with multiple cards that use the theme, and you're definitely going to notice those players using it. The other players are going to play other themes.

There are ways to play Limited - sealed or draft - online for nothing, if there isn't a store nearby. I play Sealed weekly with a friend of mine; we pick one of Magic's many many past sets, we use a draft website that basically simulates opening six booster packs, build decks, then print and sleeve up proxies and go to town.

There are some fundamentals that Duels 2015 will not teach you, because it can't.

solidork

2017-07-17, 06:21 PM

Watching draft videos can also be fun, if the person is both good and entertaining. It also gives you a good idea of what cards are good in limited.(obviously it varies based on the set)

Carl

2017-07-18, 04:42 AM

Watching draft videos can also be fun, if the person is both good and entertaining. It also gives you a good idea of what cards are good in limited.(obviously it varies based on the set)

You got any linkies? Would be hugely helpful tbh.

I fear the only thing that will really help is to actually play it.

Because of the way booster draft works. There are not enough Exalted cards in any given Booster Draft pod - consisting of 8 players - to allow every one of those players to draft Bant, and build a deck with an Exalted theme. But there are enough for one or two of those players to draft Bant colors and end up with multiple cards that use the theme, and you're definitely going to notice those players using it. The other players are going to play other themes.

There are ways to play Limited - sealed or draft - online for nothing, if there isn't a store nearby. I play Sealed weekly with a friend of mine; we pick one of Magic's many many past sets, we use a draft website that basically simulates opening six booster packs, build decks, then print and sleeve up proxies and go to town.

There are some fundamentals that Duels 2015 will not teach you, because it can't.

I appreciate you trying to help, in fact have an internet man hug, (hugz:smalltongue:), for the thought, like i said the issue is i don't know of anywhere local to me personally that has anything to do with mtg. Don't get me wrong, subject to the monetary cost factor, (more a matter of when really), i'd love to do so, and not just because i learn best by doing on a personal level, (hence this drawn out exploratory phase, it's teaching myself some stuff along the way), but because it honestly sounds fun, even if my deckbuilding skills suck a tad :p and i'd be pretty damm nervous given my social recluse tendencies.

That said even that last part helps a lot. I wasn't under the impression that, that much card passing happened anywhere outside of dedicated deck builders trading for cards. Knowing that pass around will allow people to focus more than i'd assumed helps a lot. Still i think it's worth repeating the point i noticed earlier, whilst exalted isn't on a lot of cards in the set total, it is on a large percentage of the appropriate color cards, so i give the likely number of cards overall in the G/W/R combinations it does need to be on a moderate percentage of them. In that vein i'd just repeat my point that my exploration was elf focused so far, as i move into other area's in my explorings a lot more non-elf, and thus non-communal compatible cards will pop up. At the same time my new idea for how to write it carries a lot of positives, Rally and Ally for example are connected mechanics, but when you look at the BfZ commons there's 20% of the creatures are ally's, but only 5% have rally. So that should help massively too.

Still i admit i'm kicked the ground a bit metaphorically speaking over the clear gaps in my knowledge.

JBPuffin

2017-07-18, 11:01 AM

That top down design element is also why there's all these multi-colour around. It isn't that i'm in love with multicolour, so much as my lore concept has an elvish society thats composed of 3 archetypal factions and i've defined them i specific yet at the same time subtle ways philosophically. And the occasional oddball aside elve's within the overarching tends to strongly associate with just the one faction, but each faction concept break down into multi-colour, oddly though this wasn't intentional when writing the lore, two primary and one secondary colour per faction. The thing is a cards colour needs to reflect what they are lore wise in a top down design, you'd never, (as an outside example), make a borg drone mono-colour, because the borg collective's outlook on the world around it just doesn't fit neatly into a single colour. You could potentially try and make a mono colour borg if you really wanted, but you'd lose most of the borg flavour in the process. I could certainly move to more hybrid mana ofc if that would help, but the dual and somtimes tri-colour nature of cards is very deliberate, exactly which colours they get tends to boil down to core concepts present for that type or specific individual with a bit of a sequencing factor.

Magic creatures' color alignments aren't perfect matches of their personality or their faction's allegiances; they're based on the highlights of that character, not every quirk. The idea that not every card has to reintroduce the faction to the players is a sticking point for most new designers; ideally, each card hints at their faction while still having a niche in the game itself. I personally couldn't make Borg Collective cards, or anything based on someone else's material, because I don't know it well enough. However, I do know enough about Dolrath to say, "Alright, this character is from Beterra, they're a mage who doesn't deal with death magic, so they're blue." As a whole, Beterra is blue-black, and most cards of that color combination are from Beterra, but not all Beterran cards have to be both of those colors. I design a lot of multicolored cards as well, but sometimes the only thematic link required is the use of the faction's mechanic and/or a bit of flavor text.

Carl

2017-07-18, 02:51 PM

Magic creatures' color alignments aren't perfect matches of their personality or their faction's allegiances; they're based on the highlights of that character, not every quirk. The idea that not every card has to reintroduce the faction to the players is a sticking point for most new designers; ideally, each card hints at their faction while still having a niche in the game itself. I personally couldn't make Borg Collective cards, or anything based on someone else's material, because I don't know it well enough. However, I do know enough about Dolrath to say, "Alright, this character is from Beterra, they're a mage who doesn't deal with death magic, so they're blue." As a whole, Beterra is blue-black, and most cards of that color combination are from Beterra, but not all Beterran cards have to be both of those colors. I design a lot of multicolored cards as well, but sometimes the only thematic link required is the use of the faction's mechanic and/or a bit of flavor text.

I don't want to turn this into a massive lore discussion, i allready feel like i've monopolized the thread a tad the last couple of days and i don't want to kill it by doing so ;). But to try and cover this as succinctly as i can, first i genuinely have no idea who Dolrath is so i really have no firm basis to comment on your example and offer a counter example you'd be familiar with, but i'll try and work with it. The core problem with your example is that it assumes it's possibble for that circumstance to be true. There isn't actually an elvish faction in blue black primary colours so i can't provide a specific counter example from my lore, but the key to understanding each faction is that every faction has a core guiding principle, for elves who are a part of that faction it's the core reason for why they're doing what they're doing in life.

To try and break that down a bit the faction i'm doing the exploring on so far has a core guiding principle "The Needs of the Community First". If you ask an elf of the Mother's faction why he's doing what he's doing, (or she), they'll state some variation on that first, if you press them for why they're doing the specific thing they are, thats when they'll start talking about personal preference, about how their current way of expressing that primary ideal appeals to them.

Certainly at times i've let how i lay out the card ability wise or how that special sub aspect is a little more towards one aspect move me away from the pure green/white mix that normally exemplifies the whole community matters, (especially when combined with the secondary aspect of living in harmony with nature), but i've tried to allways keep at least one and build the majority in the colour pair simply because it's such a central theme not just of the faction but of everyone within that factions outlook on life.

Maybe i am overthinking this, i'm not sure now TBH. I just know my starting point all along was "what is the single core defining trait of every elf within each faction, what is their identity as a group and how does that factor into their personal goals". And that allways came back to the faction guiding principle which allways came back to being multi-colour by nature and thats where the whole multi-colour thing ultimately came from, an attempt to define what all elves of a given faction has a common motivating force for their actions. They're really weird as a whole by human standards TBH, we don;t have anything like as well defined or limited in number of types guiding principles so we tend to go off in a lot more directions, but those directions aren't allways as full of the same subtle distinctions between sub elements as the elves.

The closest human equivalent i can give you is to imagine if every christian allways chose one or more of the 7 commandments to embody, how they embody that in detail would vary from person to person but the guiding principle wouldn't.

Anyway bed time again here.

Silfir

2017-07-18, 03:28 PM

I don't want to turn this into a massive lore discussion, i allready feel like i've monopolized the thread a tad the last couple of days and i don't want to kill it by doing so ;). But to try and cover this as succinctly as i can, first i genuinely have no idea who Dolrath is so i really have no firm basis to comment on your example and offer a counter example you'd be familiar with, but i'll try and work with it. The core problem with your example is that it assumes it's possibble for that circumstance to be true. There isn't actually an elvish faction in blue black primary colours so i can't provide a specific counter example from my lore, but the key to understanding each faction is that every faction has a core guiding principle, for elves who are a part of that faction it's the core reason for why they're doing what they're doing in life.

To try and break that down a bit the faction i'm doing the exploring on so far has a core guiding principle "The Needs of the Community First". If you ask an elf of the Mother's faction why he's doing what he's doing, (or she), they'll state some variation on that first, if you press them for why they're doing the specific thing they are, thats when they'll start talking about personal preference, about how their current way of expressing that primary ideal appeals to them.

Certainly at times i've let how i lay out the card ability wise or how that special sub aspect is a little more towards one aspect move me away from the pure green/white mix that normally exemplifies the whole community matters, (especially when combined with the secondary aspect of living in harmony with nature), but i've tried to allways keep at least one and build the majority in the colour pair simply because it's such a central theme not just of the faction but of everyone within that factions outlook on life.

Maybe i am overthinking this, i'm not sure now TBH. I just know my starting point all along was "what is the single core defining trait of every elf within each faction, what is their identity as a group and how does that factor into their personal goals". And that allways came back to the faction guiding principle which allways came back to being multi-colour by nature and thats where the whole multi-colour thing ultimately came from, an attempt to define what all elves of a given faction has a common motivating force for their actions. They're really weird as a whole by human standards TBH, we don;t have anything like as well defined or limited in number of types guiding principles so we tend to go off in a lot more directions, but those directions aren't allways as full of the same subtle distinctions between sub elements as the elves.

The closest human equivalent i can give you is to imagine if every christian allways chose one or more of the 7 commandments to embody, how they embody that in detail would vary from person to person but the guiding principle wouldn't.

Anyway bed time again here.

You don't have to understand who Dolrath is to understand the example you were given. All you need to know is that while Dolrath is from a faction that is blue/black that practices all sorts of "forbidden" magic, including necromancy, he personally doesn't feel drawn to the necromancy that represents the black aspect, but is definitely a mage through and through (focused on knowledge and mastery of magical arts), and therefore Blue.

Consider for each individual of your green/white faction which aspect of their core philosophy - stressing the needs of the community over their own, and protecting and cherishing nature - drives them more than the other. Take the Initiate Healer and the Elvish Tree Druid, for example. You made both of them simply G/W, but looking at the flavor text, the emphasis for the Initiate Healer is that they "rose through the ranks" and were granted healing powers by "the mother" as a reward for their faithful service. This guy could easily, and should, be Mono-White. Whereas the Elvish Tree Druid's main job is making sure the trees that make up the elven realm or something are nurtured and raised, I presume, and even expresses a touch of defiance in the flavour text ("Without us there would...") giving him a bit of a ornery, stubborn air. That, to me, suggests he is leaning far more towards the Green aspect of the faction, and could easily be Mono-Green.

To determine where a given creature falls - and which of them do, in fact, deserve full multi-colored status - consider the main conflict between Green and White philosophies, as laid out in MaRo's article on that color pair (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/group-think-2005-10-03-0). To summarize, Green is not a thinking color, but White is. Green's emphasis on community and harmony is a "natural" one, as it's perfectly usual for animals to band together to help each other without the influence of any sort of imposed order. They form a natural community based on instinct. White emphasises community because White wants everything and everyone to follow a certain, abstract order of things, that may not be natural at all. Green is an ally of Red - they share a respect for the gut instinct, for action over thought, for acting on their feelings rather than suppressing them. White is an ally of Blue - they share a respect for deep thought and considered action, though White does so with the goal of creating an ordered, well-functioning society, and Blue does it for the sake of the pursuit of knowledge and logic itself.

All members of a G/W society have a personal stance in this conflict, and chances are they're leaning a certain way - the ones that don't, that understand the conflict and don't lean towards either side, can be considered to truly incorporate both colors of mana into their beings, and be "true" gold cards. (Or hybrid cost cards.)

solidork

2017-07-18, 05:45 PM

You got any linkies? Would be hugely helpful tbh.

It's been a while, but LSV (Luis Scott Vargas, of Channel Fireball) was always my personal favorite, but I haven't watched in a long time. Their YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/user/ChannelFireball/videos?flow=grid&view=0&sort=dd) has videos going back all the way to Shards of Alara. Unfortunately the most memorable videos are often ones where something goes amusingly awry. My personal favorite is below:

Drafting 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEAKPxitY3Q
Drafting 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbC6Krhgd2w

Round 1 G1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSyZbZFZ3e4
Round 1 G2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gWKuMvhiCw

Round 2 G1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFdp4L2hOww (Aura Gnarlid <3)
Round 2 G2 P1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZKd7oReOoI
Round 2 G2 P2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_dqleRz-2U
Round 2 G3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H89wlVJX_kU

G1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEmsoJ4Bt7c
G2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB83ZycZyTk
G3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnk80rVSspo

If you want to look at sets that had strong themes that supported multiple distinct archetypes, I suggest looking at Innistrad/Innistrad/Innistrad drafts.

JBPuffin

2017-07-18, 05:53 PM

Forgot to say that Dolrath is my setting, which is how I know what each character's colors are. Silfir has explained it much more in-depth; listen to them, Carl. As much as we'd like to think our designs are different enough to change the system and make every card multicolor, they really aren't.

Carl

2017-07-19, 05:54 AM

It's been a while, but LSV (Luis Scott Vargas, of Channel Fireball) was always my personal favorite, but I haven't watched in a long time. Their YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/user/ChannelFireball/videos?flow=grid&view=0&sort=dd) has videos going back all the way to Shards of Alara. Unfortunately the most memorable videos are often ones where something goes amusingly awry. My personal favorite is below:

Drafting 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEAKPxitY3Q
Drafting 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbC6Krhgd2w

Round 1 G1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSyZbZFZ3e4
Round 1 G2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gWKuMvhiCw

Round 2 G1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFdp4L2hOww (Aura Gnarlid <3)
Round 2 G2 P1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZKd7oReOoI
Round 2 G2 P2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_dqleRz-2U
Round 2 G3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H89wlVJX_kU

G1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEmsoJ4Bt7c
G2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB83ZycZyTk
G3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnk80rVSspo

If you want to look at sets that had strong themes that supported multiple distinct archetypes, I suggest looking at Innistrad/Innistrad/Innistrad drafts.

First thank you, that should help a lot though i haven't as of writing had a chance to get dug in.

You don't have to understand who Dolrath is to understand the example you were given. All you need to know is that while Dolrath is from a faction that is blue/black that practices all sorts of "forbidden" magic, including necromancy, he personally doesn't feel drawn to the necromancy that represents the black aspect, but is definitely a mage through and through (focused on knowledge and mastery of magical arts), and therefore Blue.

Consider for each individual of your green/white faction which aspect of their core philosophy - stressing the needs of the community over their own, and protecting and cherishing nature - drives them more than the other. Take the Initiate Healer and the Elvish Tree Druid, for example. You made both of them simply G/W, but looking at the flavor text, the emphasis for the Initiate Healer is that they "rose through the ranks" and were granted healing powers by "the mother" as a reward for their faithful service. This guy could easily, and should, be Mono-White. Whereas the Elvish Tree Druid's main job is making sure the trees that make up the elven realm or something are nurtured and raised, I presume, and even expresses a touch of defiance in the flavour text ("Without us there would...") giving him a bit of a ornery, stubborn air. That, to me, suggests he is leaning far more towards the Green aspect of the faction, and could easily be Mono-Green.

To determine where a given creature falls - and which of them do, in fact, deserve full multi-colored status - consider the main conflict between Green and White philosophies, as laid out in MaRo's article on that color pair (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/group-think-2005-10-03-0). To summarize, Green is not a thinking color, but White is. Green's emphasis on community and harmony is a "natural" one, as it's perfectly usual for animals to band together to help each other without the influence of any sort of imposed order. They form a natural community based on instinct. White emphasises community because White wants everything and everyone to follow a certain, abstract order of things, that may not be natural at all. Green is an ally of Red - they share a respect for the gut instinct, for action over thought, for acting on their feelings rather than suppressing them. White is an ally of Blue - they share a respect for deep thought and considered action, though White does so with the goal of creating an ordered, well-functioning society, and Blue does it for the sake of the pursuit of knowledge and logic itself.

All members of a G/W society have a personal stance in this conflict, and chances are they're leaning a certain way - the ones that don't, that understand the conflict and don't lean towards either side, can be considered to truly incorporate both colors of mana into their beings, and be "true" gold cards. (Or hybrid cost cards.)

Forgot to say that Dolrath is my setting, which is how I know what each character's colors are. Silfir has explained it much more in-depth; listen to them, Carl. As much as we'd like to think our designs are different enough to change the system and make every card multicolor, they really aren't.

Ok thank you for all that, it's useful and i'm honestly feeling like you have a point, but i admit i'm having my issues breaking it down still. I think thats because i'm no longer sure i'm using green right at all here. None of what Silfir had to say about green above applies to the Mother faction at all.

I'd describe the community focus as mono white really given the above, the bit i considered the green aspect of the faction comes from how they express that in relation to the nature around them. Humans would have no problems chopping down a thousand hectares of forest, strip mining the ground, then using the spoil heaps as farmland whilst building an Aswan scale dam to provide a lake for the acquisition of water. For the elves of the Mother faction (she's an elvish Goddess and the faction associated with her reflects her ideals basically), thats unacceptable. The natural world has as much right to exist as they do and whenever they seek to take something from it, (be that living space, food, water, stone, metal ore, wood, leather, e.t.c.), they do so in a way that disrupts it the least.

To sort of demonstrate that point and use one of the example card Silfir used i created. The tree druids are responsible for managing the forests to some degree certainly. But their actual purpose is basically lumberjacks and, (for the ones with magic which is what i've represented on the card), the creation of treekin to aid in the defence of tree cities from certain larger animals. Managing the forests is somthing they do to keep that sustainable and avoid destroying the forests, so they replant and encourage the growth of trees and ensure that the ecosystem remains balanced.

As another example of how the society works, the Elvish Hunter Sage isn't in the position he's in bcause he puts a great deal of time and effort into helping the community, or because he's an extremely skilled and knowledgeable hunter able to bring in large amounts of game without disturbing the food chain who also excels at teaching others, but because he's all of those things. He combines necessary skills and knowledge with an appropriate amount of effective effort towards helping the community without disturbing the natural order around him.

At this point i'm genuinely not sure how to break the colour pie down at all for the elves because i'm seriously wondering if i've got the colour pie down pat at all. And not just for this faction, it throws all the factions up in the air because they have to be consistent amongst each other.

solidork

2017-07-19, 12:44 PM

Carl

2017-07-19, 01:58 PM

JBPuffin

2017-07-19, 03:12 PM

solidork

2017-07-19, 04:21 PM

4 mana to cast, 6 mana to equip and get all the benefits. The abilities are nice, the +4/+4 and Indesctructible makes anything a Serra Angel slayer which is fun. Cool stuff, probably balanced at rare.

I was either thinking Mythic or a card in a Commander product. This thing would be really gross in limited but probably unplayable in any constructed format other than commander/casual.

It started out as "Swiss Army Knife" or "Utility Belt", but I thought that a modal equipment was unique/complicated/splashy enough that it would be wasted on an uncommon that gives minor benefits. I decided to let you pick more effects for a higher cost to capture the "I'm putting on multiple pieces of armor" flavor. The actual effects and pricing are almost certainly wrong, but I wanted to get it out there.

JBPuffin

2017-07-19, 06:17 PM

I was either thinking Mythic or a card in a Commander product. This thing would be really gross in limited but probably unplayable in any constructed format other than commander/casual.

It started out as "Swiss Army Knife" or "Utility Belt", but I thought that a modal equipment was unique/complicated/splashy enough that it would be wasted on an uncommon that gives minor benefits. I decided to let you pick more effects for a higher cost to capture the "I'm putting on multiple pieces of armor" flavor. The actual effects and pricing are almost certainly wrong, but I wanted to get it out there.

I think it makes both the equipped and equipment targets; removal is the great equalizer :D

toapat

2017-07-19, 07:50 PM

4 mana to cast, 6 mana to equip and get all the benefits. The abilities are nice, the +4/+4 and Indesctructible makes anything a Serra Angel slayer which is fun. Cool stuff, probably balanced at rare.

those costs should be reversed.

Equipment is really only able to perform if its cost if fair and its equip cost keeps it conservative. YOu can see very reliably that Equipment doesnt perform because it costs too much to equip for the benefit.

Silfir

2017-07-19, 09:54 PM

those costs should be reversed.

Equipment is really only able to perform if its cost if fair and its equip cost keeps it conservative. YOu can see very reliably that Equipment doesnt perform because it costs too much to equip for the benefit.

I'm not sure I understand you too well - are you implying this one is too expensive to equip?

+2/+2 and first strike for 2 is great. So is +2/+2 and vigilance for 2. Indestructible for 2 isn't overcosted either. Any combination of these effects for 4 is well worth the investment as well. Equipping it for 6 is something you may do late game in Limited when you don't need the mana for anything else.

Amechra

2017-07-19, 09:55 PM

Regalia of the Chosen 4
Legendary Artifact - Equipment
When you equip Regalia of the Chosen, choose X -
- Equipped creature gains Indestructible
- Equipped creature gets +2/+2 and gains First Strike.
- Equipped creature gets +2/+2 and gains Vigilance.
(The chosen effects last as long as the creature is equipped by this card.)
Equip - {X}{X}

It's a Sword+Shield+Helm all in one card, kinda. Pricing and effects are both wild stabs in the dark.

One quick question...

How does this work with Puresteel Paladin (which sets Equip costs to 0)? I'm assuming that you wouldn't get any modes.

As it stands, drop those +2/+2's to +1/+1 and drop that Equip to X rather than XX, and I think you'll have something OK.

=---=

Messing with lands:

Roiling Fields
Land - Plain
Lifelink

Roiling River
Land - Island
Flying

Roiling Marsh
Land - Swamp
Deathtouch

Roiling Peaks
Land - Mountain
First StrikeT

Roiling Jungle
Land - Forest
Trample

These are templates - X and Y are two generic colors.

Echoland
Land
Echo X/Y
T: Add X or Y to your mana pool.

Champland
Land
Champion a Land
T: Add XY to your mana pool.

Sackland
Land
When Sackland enters the battlefield, sacrifice a land.
T: Add X or Y to your mana pool.

Expland
Land - Waste
Level Up X/Y
Level 1-3: T: Add X or Y to your mana pool.
Level 4+: Add XY to your mana pool.

New Keyword - Fantastic X: (You may cast this land for its Fantastic cost. If you do, it's an Enchantment in addition to its other types, and it doesn't count towards the number of lands you may play this turn.)

Phantomscape
Land
Fantastic 1
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1, T: Return target Enchantment you control to its owner's hand.

Glimmerscape
Land
Fantastic 2, Flash

Manascape
Land - Mountain Forest
Fantastic RG, Multikicker 1
Manascape enters the battlefield tapped. Add R or G to your mana pool for each time it was kicked.

Fantastic makes the rules cry so hard, since you can combine keywords with lands that should never have been used together. It would never be templated that way if Wizards made it.

tgva8889

2017-07-19, 11:19 PM

JBPuffin

2017-07-19, 11:31 PM

Roiling Fields
Land - Plain
Lifelink

Roiling River
Land - Island
Flying

Roiling Marsh
Land - Swamp
Deathtouch

Roiling Peaks
Land - Mountain
First StrikeT

Roiling Jungle
Land - Forest
Trample

These are templates - X and Y are two generic colors.

Echoland
Land
Echo X/Y
T: Add X or Y to your mana pool.

Champland
Land
Champion a Land
T: Add XY to your mana pool.

Sackland
Land
When Sackland enters the battlefield, sacrifice a land.
T: Add X or Y to your mana pool.

Expland
Land - Waste
Level Up X/Y
Level 1-3: T: Add X or Y to your mana pool.
Level 4+: Add XY to your mana pool.

New Keyword - Fantastic X: (You may cast this land for its Fantastic cost. If you do, it's an Enchantment in addition to its other types, and it doesn't count towards the number of lands you may play this turn.)

Phantomscape
Land
Fantastic 1
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1, T: Return target Enchantment you control to its owner's hand.

Glimmerscape
Land
Fantastic 2, Flash

Manascape
Land - Mountain Forest
Fantastic RG, Multikicker 1
Manascape enters the battlefield tapped. Add R or G to your mana pool for each time it was kicked.

Duuuuuude...my landfall cards would love Fantastic...

toapat

2017-07-19, 11:58 PM

I'm not sure I understand you too well - are you implying this one is too expensive to equip?

+2/+2 and first strike for 2 is great. So is +2/+2 and vigilance for 2. Indestructible for 2 isn't overcosted either. Any combination of these effects for 4 is well worth the investment as well. Equipping it for 6 is something you may do late game in Limited when you don't need the mana for anything else.

to compare, look at Argentum Armor, the equipment that would be playable if it wasnt 6/6

High casting costs, outside of specifically SFM, are the primary limiting factor on powerful equipment, not the quip costs themselves

Amechra

2017-07-20, 12:40 AM

to compare, look at Argentum Armor, the equipment that would be playable if it wasnt 6/6

Argentum Armor is actually pretty solid - that's like saying "Emrakul would be playable if it didn't cost 15". I mean, Sigarda's Aid is just a quick splash in White (where most of the cares-about-equipment things are anyway), you're probably running Puresteel Paladin or Brass Squire, and it's positively nasty if you cheat it out early with a Quest for the Holy Relic.

Granted, Regalia of the Champion doesn't synergize nearly as well with other cares-about-equipment cards, so it's ultimately more painful to play around. I still stand by my earlier "make it cost X to equip, and drop those +2/+2's to +1/+1" comment.

=---=

Menagerie Druid 1GG
Creature - Dryad Druid
Landfall - Whenever a land comes into play under your control, put a +1/+1 counter on a creature you control. If that land is a creature, put a +1/+1 counter on it as well.
2/2

Svata

2017-07-20, 01:03 AM

Also re: Argentum Armor. Stoneforge Mystic is a card that exists.

Amechra

2017-07-20, 01:50 AM

Also re: Argentum Armor. Stoneforge Mystic is a card that exists.

Stoneforge Mystic breaks everything, though.

Svata

2017-07-20, 01:57 AM

Eh. I think it'd be fine in modern.

Amechra

2017-07-20, 02:31 AM

solidork

2017-07-20, 07:32 AM

What can I say? I like Red.

Reality Rejection 2RR
Instant
Players cannot be prevented from losing the game this turn.

Unexpected Slaughter 1RRR
Instant
Players and permanents lose Protection from Red until the end of the turn.

Brutal Blazeheart 1RR
Creature - Viashino Shaman
Whenever you cast a instant or sorcery, Brutal Blazeheart deals 2 damage to target creature or player if you spent RRR on it.
Instants and sorceries you cast cannot be countered and any damage they deal cannot be prevented if you spent RRRRRR on them.
2/2

...

Brutal Blazeheart's wording needs work, and Unexpected Slaughter is probably undercosted.

Reality Rejection is probably OK (if a little niche).

I don't think Unexpected Slaughter is undercosted at all. Did you mean to have it do something else other than remove protection, like deal damage? I'd honestly be tempted to put both of those abilities on a creature.
The Blazeheart - suppose you cast a spell for RRRRR; do you want it to benefit from both abilities? If so, I'd add an "at least" in there. The templating for Ribbons of Night (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/101.html) might provide some guidance.

Silfir

2017-07-20, 10:47 AM

The templating for Ribbons of the Night doesn't have an "at least" in it. I don't think it's necessary.

(Though it shows "spent RRR to cast it" should be preferred to "spent RRR on it".)

toapat

2017-07-20, 02:53 PM

Also re: Argentum Armor. Stoneforge Mystic is a card that exists.

SFM is stoneforge Mystic. I explicitly acknowledged if you have access to it Argentum Armor becomes viable.

What can I say? I like Red.

Reality Rejection 2RR
Instant
Players cannot be prevented from losing the game this turn.

Unexpected Slaughter 1RRR
Instant
Players and permanents lose Protection from Red until the end of the turn.

Brutal Blazeheart 1RR
Creature - Viashino Shaman
Whenever you cast a instant or sorcery, Brutal Blazeheart deals 2 damage to target creature or player if you spent RRR on it.
Instants and sorceries you cast cannot be countered and any damage they deal cannot be prevented if you spent RRRRRR on them.
2/2

Rejection is probably overcosted in reality, while Unexpected Slaughter should probably include "and cannot gain Protection from red", as otherwise BtE

Blazeheart should probably be 3 damage for the first trigger, and abandon the second trigger

Svata

2017-07-20, 04:25 PM

SFM is stoneforge Mystic. I explicitly acknowledged if you have access to it Argentum Armor becomes viable.

Sorry, I missed that.

solidork

2017-07-20, 10:17 PM

First thank you, that should help a lot though i haven't as of writing had a chance to get dug in.

I've ended up watching a bunch of Rise of the Eldrazi drafts out of pure nostalgia. Heres a pretty good article that spells it all out.

http://www.mtgoacademy.com/rise-of-the-eldrazi-a-draft-primer/

Ninjaman

2017-07-21, 07:30 AM

Messing with lands:

Roiling Fields
Land - Plain
Lifelink

Roiling River
Land - Island
Flying

Roiling Marsh
Land - Swamp
Deathtouch

Roiling Peaks
Land - Mountain
First StrikeT

Roiling Jungle
Land - Forest
Trample
These are probably fine, as long as there is some kind of bonus to playing basics in the standard format they are in, to not just make them free. Maybe don't give them basic land typend just make them tap for mana.

These are templates - X and Y are two generic colors.

Echoland
Land
Echo X/Y
T: Add X or Y to your mana pool.
I like it! It comes into play untapped but then puts you down one mana next turn, which is a really nice and probably improved variant on the usual comes into play tapped.

Champland
Land
Champion a Land
T: Add XY to your mana pool.
It is kind of like bouncelands, but with some important differences. Champion l around land destruction but it doesn't grant you more mana with fewer lands. If that was just the difference it would be perfectly fine.
This land does however me into play untapped, meaning it actually accelerates you giving you three mana turn two with very little setup. This is probably too powerful.
I would probably make it only champion untapped lands, that way it doesn't accelerate you, but also doesn't slow you down like bouncelands, so it should be fine as long as it was rare.

Sackland
Land
When Sackland enters the battlefield, sacrifice a land.
T: Add X or Y to your mana pool.
Why are these so much worse than the champion lands? These lands are horrible to the point where I wouldn't play them over basics in pretty much anything. That is a bad design. Did you mean for them to tap for XY? Even then they would still be worse than champion lands but might be worth it over bouncelands thanks to the mana acceleration. Might actually be too good then, especially if you could combine it with flagstones of trokair.

Expland
Land - Waste
Level Up X/Y
Level 1-3: T: Add X or Y to your mana pool.
Level 4+: Add XY to your mana pool.[/SPOILER]
Waste is not a land type, and does not do anything, but I also don't think this land should tap for colorless, so just remove it.
My initial reaction was that it was very clunky, but you can drop it and tap another land for the level up and it just becomes a tapland with an upside, although you can't play it effectively turn 1, which is a downside, so probably balanced at uncommon, although it might be too complex for uncommon.

New Keyword - Fantastic X: (You may cast this land for its Fantastic cost. If you do, it's an Enchantment in addition to its other types, and it doesn't count towards the number of lands you may play this turn.)

I would template fantastic:
"Fantastic X: Put this card from your hand onto the battlefield. Activate this ability only any time you could play a sorcery."
Removes most of the awkwardness.
You could keep the enchantment clause, but I don't think it is necessary, the mechanic is cleaner without it.

Phantomscape
Land
Fantastic 1
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1, T: Return target Enchantment you control to its owner's hand.
Fantastic 1 probably shouldn't exist. You can literally chain these, which shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Glimmerscape
Land
Fantastic 2, Flash
Can this tap for mana?

Manascape
Land - Mountain Forest
Fantastic RG, Multikicker 1
Manascape enters the battlefield tapped. Add R or G to your mana pool for each time it was kicked.
Not sure why this has the filtering effect, it doesn't do a whole lot.
Remove that and I quite like it, with or without basic land types. Maybe even as a cycle although that might be bad for standard if all decks can play four drops turn three.
The fantastic makes it like a farseek after a stomping grounds, but can be played as a tapland as well.

Menagerie Druid 1GG
Creature - Dryad Druid
Landfall - Whenever a land comes into play under your control, put a +1/+1 counter on a creature you control. If that land is a creature, put a +1/+1 counter on it as well.
2/2
There is very few lands that come into play as creatures, dryad arbor and a mutavault or mishra's factory that animates itself being to most likely candidates.
I think it would be more interesting if it instead read "if that creature is a land, put an additional +1/+1 counter on it."

What can I say? I like Red.

Reality Rejection 2RR
Instant
Players cannot be prevented from losing the game this turn.
This is really weak, like super weak. It could cost R and it would still only be a niche sideboard card. At 2RR you could make it an enchantment and make damage unpreventable as well probably.

Unexpected Slaughter 1RRR
Instant
Players and permanents lose Protection from Red until the end of the turn.
This is way overcosted. Compared to skullcrack it could most likely get away with costing 1R, maybe less.

Brutal Blazeheart 1RR
Creature - Viashino Shaman
Whenever you cast a instant or sorcery, Brutal Blazeheart deals 2 damage to target creature or player if you spent RRR on it.
Instants and sorceries you cast cannot be countered and any damage they deal cannot be prevented if you spent RRRRRR on them.
2/2
I think the correct wording is:
"Whenever you cast a instant or sorcery spell, if you spent RRR to cast it, Brutal Blazeheart deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, if you spent RRRRRR to cast it, it can't be countered by spells or abilities. If that spell would deal damage that damage can't be prevented."

Ninjaman

2017-07-21, 07:45 AM

solidork

2017-07-21, 09:38 AM

How would this effect be worded? Can it be done?

Guy Dude - W/B W/B
Creature - Human
When Guy Dude enters the battlefield, gain 2 life for each W spent to cast it. Then each opponent loses 1 life for each B spent to cast it.
2/2

Is this correct?

Or would it be something like:
"When Guy Dude enters the battlefield, gain two times X life, where X is the amount of white mana spent to cast it. Then each opponent loses Y life, where Y is the amount of black mana spent to cast it."

I think both should work. There IS some precedent for a wording similar to the second one, if that sort of thing is your jam. I don't think you actually need to use the variables X and Y in the second wording, fwiw.

Soul Burn X2B
Sorcery
Spend only black and/or red mana on X.
Soul Burn deals X damage to target creature or player. You gain life equal to the damage dealt, but not more than the amount of {B} spent on X, the player's life total before Soul Burn dealt damage, or the creature's toughness.

Multiplayer card:

Escalating Violence 2RR
Enchantment
Whenever one or more creatures attack, each defending player gets a Madness counter. At the beginning of combat on each player's turn, that player chooses a creature for each Madness counter they have plus 1. Those creatures gain Haste until end of turn and must attack this turn if able.
At the end of each player's turn, Escalating Violence deals damage to that player equal to the number of Madness counters they have unless they attacked with a creature that turn.
"Or will the blood we shed begin an endless cycle of death and vengeance with no defendants?"

I went for maximum granularity/resonance even though it made it more complicated than it needs to be, as usual. One of my primary goals was to try to make the build up to everyone attacking with all of their creatures every turn a gradual but inevitable one. The damage if you don't attack was kinda an afterthought, I'm not super attached to it.

toapat

2017-07-21, 09:56 AM

How would this effect be worded? Can it be done?

Guy Dude - W/B W/B
Creature - Human
When Guy Dude enters the battlefield, gain 2 life for each W spent to cast it. Then each opponent loses 1 life for each B spent to cast it.
2/2

Is this correct?

Or would it be something like:
"When Guy Dude enters the battlefield, gain two times X life, where X is the amount of white mana spent to cast it. Then each opponent loses Y life, where Y is the amount of black mana spent to cast it."

the first wording is correct and overpowered, since it gets you a bear with either a mana symbol of lifegain or a manasymbol of drain

I think both should work. There IS some precedent for a wording similar to the second one, if that sort of thing is your jam. I don't think you actually need to use the variables X and Y in the second wording, fwiw.

[SPOILER=The Precedent]Multiplayer card:

Escalating Violence 2RR
Enchantment
Whenever one or more creatures attack, each defending player gets a Madness counter. At the beginning of combat on each player's turn, that player chooses a creature for each Madness counter they have plus 1. Those creatures gain Haste until end of turn and must attack this turn if able.
At the end of each player's turn, Escalating Violence deals damage to that player equal to the number of Madness counters they have unless they attacked with a creature that turn.
"Or will the blood we shed begin an endless cycle of death with no defendants?"

I went for maximum granularity/resonance even though it made it more complicated than it needs to be, as usual. One of my primary goals was to try to make the build up to everyone attacking with all of their creatures every turn a gradual but inevitable one. The damage if you don't attack was kinda an afterthought, I'm not super attached to it.

This card is overpowered. All i need is Anax and Cyamede under a Shroud bubble and i can massively boost the power of my entire board with this enchantment

here is a full cycle (http://imgur.com/a/zS9l4) of duallands i developed

Gauntlet

2017-07-21, 10:19 AM

the first wording is correct and overpowered, since it gets you a bear with either a mana symbol of lifegain or a manasymbol of drain

This card is overpowered. All i need is Anax and Cyamede under a Shroud bubble and i can massively boost the power of my entire board with this enchantment

here is a full cycle (http://imgur.com/a/zS9l4) of duallands i developed

The B/W creature is not particularly scary. At best, it's either a 2/2 Lone Missionary for WW (and Lone Missionary isn't exactly tearing up any formats) or it's a 2/2 that deals 2 damage, which is fine but not particularly amazing when compared to other double-black creatures, like Kalastria Highborn. It's got some versatility, but it would probably be fine as an uncommon.

Not sure what you mean about Anax and Cymede. The enchantment doesn't interact with them in any way as far as I can tell?
Escalating Violence seems like an interesting build, but it seems like it just punishes anyone who runs out of creatures. I'd just have it gain a Madness counter itself at the beginning of your turn, and force that many creatures to attack each combat. Anyone who already ran out of creatures probably gets punished enough by not being able to block any of the must-attack creatures everyone else has.

The dual lands are pretty powerful. Any non-control deck is going to run at least four, probably up to eight. They're planning to empty their hand anyway. A control deck is less interested and probably wouldn't want more than three or so, unless they're a relatively proactive build which is happy to be running on a smaller hand size. Commander lists would probably want them, at least if they aren't control based again. Whether they'd see more play than Shocklands is uncertain (shocklands have basic land types, which is pretty big) but they'd certainly compete in that sort of area. I could see them being printed in a supplemental product, since they aren't any better than duals in Legacy, but in a Standard set they'd just be a long distance too good.

solidork

2017-07-21, 11:03 AM

Escalating Violence seems like an interesting build, but it seems like it just punishes anyone who runs out of creatures. I'd just have it gain a Madness counter itself at the beginning of your turn, and force that many creatures to attack each combat. Anyone who already ran out of creatures probably gets punished enough by not being able to block any of the must-attack creatures everyone else has.

Yeah, that is probably the cleanest way to do it. I wanted to have it so someone who was getting attacked more would have to attack back more. I also didn't want it to just be a dead card if you're facing off against decks that don't really play creatures.

Escalating Violence v1.0.1 1RR
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a Madness counter on Escalating Violence.
At the beginning of combat on each player's turn, that player chooses a creature he or she controls for each Madness counter on Escalating Violence. Those creatures gain Haste until end of turn and must attack this turn if able. If there are 5 or more Madness counters on Escalating Violence, those creatures gain Double Strike until end of turn.

I dunno, I think if you play this version in multiplayer then everyone just goes after you. Maybe it was the same way with the original?

Ninjaman

2017-07-21, 03:16 PM

I think both should work. There IS some precedent for a wording similar to the second one, if that sort of thing is your jam. I don't think you actually need to use the variables X and Y in the second wording, fwiw.

Soul Burn X2B
Sorcery
Spend only black and/or red mana on X.
Soul Burn deals X damage to target creature or player. You gain life equal to the damage dealt, but not more than the amount of {B} spent on X, the player's life total before Soul Burn dealt damage, or the creature's toughness.
I don't think both work. Magic has a pretty strict syntax so they can't both be correct.
Also it needs to be X and Y, as you can't use different Xs on the same effect I think. Source (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413608)
The spell soul burn actually seems to indicate the correct would be a mix of the two:
"When Guy Dude enters the battlefield, gain two times X life, where X is the amount of W spent to cast it. Then each opponent loses Y life, where Y is the amount of B spent to cast it."

the first wording is correct and overpowered, since it gets you a bear with either a mana symbol of lifegain or a manasymbol of drain
Both wordings do the same thing.
I have no idea why you think the card is overpowered. It is either:
WW for a 2/2 that gains you 4 life.
BB for a 2/2 that makes the opponent lose 2 life.
WB for a 2/2 that makes the opponent lose 1 life and gains you 2 life.
I'm not sure which of those is overpowered, and the flexibility doesn't do it.

here is a full cycle (http://imgur.com/a/zS9l4) of duallands i developed
These are probably overpowered. In most cases even reducing your handsize by two by turn two won't have much effect. Some decks might make sure to play other lands first, but in a lot of decks there are untapped duals without downside.

Silfir

2017-07-21, 06:12 PM

These are probably overpowered. In most cases even reducing your handsize by two by turn two won't have much effect. Some decks might make sure to play other lands first, but in a lot of decks there are untapped duals without downside.

I'd like to offer a counterpoint.

Wizards has decided that untapped duals without any drawbacks are too strong for modern-era Magic. But consider the drawbacks of the lands they *do* deem acceptable:

- Painlands: Pay 1 life to get colored mana. Usually loses two, three life until you can tap them for colorless without worry, if you have to play one early - but can come in untapped and tap for free if you don't need the colors anymore. Upside: Is a triple-land in multicolored Eldrazi decks.
- Shocklands: Pay 2 life. Upside: Also gets basic land types, can come in untapped to prevent life loss.
- Fetchlands: Pay 1 life, deckbuilding constraints (basic land types), vulnerability to shenanigans while the activation is on the stack (like Stifle). Upside: At will deck shuffling, combines with shocklands to give you untapped mana in virtually any color you need.
- Slowlands: Land doesn't untap next turn if you get colored mana. Upside: None. These are bad enough that nobody plays them.

The "handlands" are untapped duals without downside in a lot of decks? In most decks, in most games, losing a bit of life to get your untapped mana makes no difference either. The cases in which it does are outliers - have to be, otherwise these lands would not see any play - and you do have to take them into account, but that means you also have to take into account the outliers for the "handlands".

What makes me particularly wary of them - and feel like they're probably just fine power-wise - is that they're worse if you're on the draw (so while you're already under pressure to win!). If your deck consists of a lot of them (maybe a full eight for a three-color deck) and you end up with a hand that has three handlands and no one-drop, you have to start discarding cards as soon as turn 1.

I think control decks and combo decks straight up don't want them - there are plenty of decks that want a hand full of cards! But fast, aggressive decks are already just fine and dandy with having shocklands, fetchlands or painlands. There may be specific decks yet to be brewed that could turn the hand size reduction into an advantage - but Death's Shadow already does something like that, and nobody would consider banning fetchlands and shocklands because of it - at worst, they'd ban Death's Shadow.

Personally I'd rank the "handlands" below painlands, shocklands and fetchlands, and well above slowlands, and I think that's a perfectly reasonable spot for a dual land to be in.

toapat

2017-07-21, 06:51 PM

I dunno, I think if you play this version in multiplayer then everyone just goes after you. Maybe it was the same way with the original?

yes, everyone tries to kill you because you play 1 drops that turn into deathshadows because of Leonidas + Gorgo. Choose should NEVER be given access to by a friendly effect.

The Madlands ere part of a larger project to present the idea of pushing shear value per card in hand. Not like the stupid cycle of Maro Kami, but actual Max Hand Size costs something

toapat

2017-07-21, 09:24 PM

Double post because of time differential:

Thrones time!:
http://i.imgur.com/X70gsaK.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/Xk0eCuH.jpg

solidork

2017-07-22, 12:12 AM

Eddard Stark, Hand of the King 1GW
Legendary Creature - Human Knight Noble
When Eddard enters the battlefield, if you cast him from your hand, investigate. If a creature you control died this turn, investigate three times instead.
First Strike, Flash
When you sacrifice a clue, each creature you control gets +1/+1 until end of turn. Then if you control no clues, you play with your hand revealed until the start of your next turn.
3/3

Awkward, but matches what happens in the book pretty well imo. Flash was purely a nod towards playability and not a flavor thing, it took Robert forever to "summon" Ned.

Varys, the Spider 1UB
Legendary Creature - Human Rogue Advisor
At the beginning of combat on your turn, choose target creature. That creature gains Skulk until end of turn, and whenever it deals combat damage to an opponent this turn, investigate.
Sacrifice a clue: Choose one -
- Look at target player's hand.
- Tap target creature. If it's Legendary, it doesn't untap during it's controllers next untap step.
- Varys gains hexproof until end of turn.
1/3

Ninjaman

2017-07-22, 12:47 PM

I'd like to offer a counterpoint.

Wizards has decided that untapped duals without any drawbacks are too strong for modern-era Magic. But consider the drawbacks of the lands they *do* deem acceptable:
- Painlands: Pay 1 life to get colored mana. Usually loses two, three life until you can tap them for colorless without worry, if you have to play one early - but can come in untapped and tap for free if you don't need the colors anymore. Upside: Is a triple-land in multicolored Eldrazi decks.- Shocklands: Pay 2 life. Upside: Also gets basic land types, can come in untapped to prevent life loss.
- Fetchlands: Pay 1 life, deckbuilding constraints (basic land types), vulnerability to shenanigans while the activation is on the stack (like Stifle). Upside: At will deck shuffling, combines with shocklands to give you untapped mana in virtually any color you need.
The only reason shocklands and fetchlands are so stupidly good is because they synergize extremely well. By themselves they are a lot less powerful. There are plenty of decks that wouldn't play typeless alpha duals over fetches and shocks, but that doesn't stop that they probably shouldn't be printed.

- Slowlands: Land doesn't untap next turn if you get colored mana. Upside: None. These are bad enough that nobody plays them.
Slowlands are terrible, I don't know why you mentioned them instead of fastslands or handlands.

The "handlands" are untapped duals without downside in a lot of decks?
Not sure you can call them handlands, that name is already taken for the shadows over innistrad duals. Some call them reveal lands, but I hear handlands more.

In most decks, in most games, losing a bit of life to get your untapped mana makes no difference either. The cases in which it does are outliers - have to be, otherwise these lands would not see any play - and you do have to take them into account, but that means you also have to take into account the outliers for the "handlands".

What makes me particularly wary of them - and feel like they're probably just fine power-wise - is that they're worse if you're on the draw (so while you're already under pressure to win!). If your deck consists of a lot of them (maybe a full eight for a three-color deck) and you end up with a hand that has three handlands and no one-drop, you have to start discarding cards as soon as turn 1.
I think you are missing the important distinction. In most games the life loss doesn't matter, at least not more than the faster mana, but in all decks it matters in some games. It doesn't matter what deck you play, sometimes you will play against burn or zoo, and when you do you will curse your deck for bringing you down 5 life the first two turns. There are many decks however where the "handlands" will pretty much never be a downside, like a burn deck for instance.
There is one other land I can think of for which this is true, and that is Grove of the Burnwillows, a card that fits into a cycle, yet there is only one, because in some decks it is basically a free inclusion. Red Green is one of the safest combinations the card could be in, yet it is still good. Imagine its blue black counterpart.
That is the exact problem that these "handlands" run into, and that is why they can't be printed.

I think control decks and combo decks straight up don't want them - there are plenty of decks that want a hand full of cards!
And there are plenty of decks that don't want to play Grove of the Burnwillows lands, but that doesn't stop them from being too powerful in some decks.
The amount of decks that Bazaar of Baghdad is good in is very low, but that doesn't keep it from being one of the most powerful lands in the game, if not the most powerful.

But fast, aggressive decks are already just fine and dandy with having shocklands, fetchlands or painlands.
I can't remember the last time I've seen an aggro deck play painlands outside of standard. I think the only modern decks that play painlands are some eldrazi and sometimes storm.
Also I think you are forgetting about fastlands.

There may be specific decks yet to be brewed that could turn the hand size reduction into an advantage - but Death's Shadow already does something like that, and nobody would consider banning fetchlands and shocklands because of it - at worst, they'd ban Death's Shadow.
It's not a question of there being decks that can break it, it is a question of there being decks that can just put it in as a dual land.

Personally I'd rank the "handlands" below painlands, shocklands and fetchlands, and well above slowlands, and I think that's a perfectly reasonable spot for a dual land to be in.
They are above painlands, and there are decks that will play them before shocklands and fetchlands, and definately before fastlands.

Ninjaman

2017-07-22, 12:58 PM

Since we are doing game of thrones cards:

Lord Commander John Snow - 1WW
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier - R
First strike, vigilance
Giants and other Humans you control get +1/+1.

Varys, the Spider - 1U
Legendary Creature - Human Advisor - R
At the beginning of your upkeep, scry 2.
0/2

White Walker - 3BB
Creature - Spirit Warrior - M
Whenever White Walker blocks or becomes blocked by a creature, it gains indestructible until end of turn.
2B: Choose target creature card in an opponent’s graveyard that was put there from the battlefield this turn. Put that card onto the battlefield under your control.
3/4

Gregor ’the Mountain’ Clegane - 1RB
Legendary Creature - Human Knight - R
Menace
Gregor ‘the Mountain’ Clegane attacks each turn if able.
4/4

Ramsay Bolton - 1RB
Legendary Creature - Human Warrior - R
T: Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature.
2BB: Gain control of target creature with a -1/-1 counter on it.
2/2

Valyrian Steel Blade - 2
Artifact - Equipment - R
Indestructible
Equipped creature gets +2/+2.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a creature, that creature loses indestructible until end of turn.
Equip 2

toapat

2017-07-22, 03:26 PM

Since we are doing game of thrones cards:

Lord Commander John Snow - 1WW
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier - R
First strike, vigilance
Giants and other Humans you control get +1/+1.

White Walker - 3BB
Creature - Spirit Warrior - M
Whenever White Walker blocks or becomes blocked by a creature, it gains indestructible until end of turn.
2B: Choose target creature card in an opponent’s graveyard that was put there from the battlefield this turn. Put that card onto the battlefield under your control.
3/4

Gregor ’the Mountain’ Clegane - 1RB
Legendary Creature - Human Knight - R
Menace
Gregor ‘the Mountain’ Clegane attacks each turn if able.
4/4

Ramsay Bolton - 1RB
Legendary Creature - Human Warrior - R
T: Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature.
2BB: Gain control of target creature with a -1/-1 counter on it.
2/2

3 of these are missing the Snow Supertype, and Gregor and Jon are missing Eternalize and Embalm respectively

Silfir

2017-07-22, 06:37 PM

The only reason shocklands and fetchlands are so stupidly good is because they synergize extremely well. By themselves they are a lot less powerful. There are plenty of decks that wouldn't play typeless alpha duals over fetches and shocks, but that doesn't stop that they probably shouldn't be printed.

So why are shocklands and fetchlands okay and the handsizelands are not?

There are many decks however where the "handlands" will pretty much never be a downside, like a burn deck for instance.

"pretty much never" applies to the shockland/fetchland manabases as well. That's the point I was making: That getting your handsize reduced just for playing a land is a drawback that can very well lead to discarding cards (or having to play them prematurely) and losing the game as a result.

You're presenting a narrative in which the handsizelands are not okay because they are "untaplands without drawbacks". The premise is faulty; they do have a drawback. We're asking if the drawback is not big enough.

Burn decks perhaps may never feel the drawback, but burn decks are "pretty much never" going to lose to life loss either. Also, they have access to...

Also I think you are forgetting about fastlands.

If I was going to mention fastlands, I'd have to mention all of the conditional untaplands as well. (That's why I mentioned slowlands, by the way - as terrible as they are, they do come in untapped and tap for colored mana unconditionally, and those were the criteria I named before I listed the lands.)

But yes - fastlands exist. They're already free untaplands in burn decks (which tend to be devoid of even 3-drops and don't want to see a fourth land) and I'm not aware they're considered broken. They certainly have done nothing to unseat fetchland/shockland manabases for burn decks that involve three colors or more.

They are above painlands, and there are decks that will play them before shocklands and fetchlands, and definately before fastlands.

They might get played before fastlands in decks that absolutely never have to worry about the hand size reduction because they empty their hands right from the start - but only if those decks are 2-color. As soon as a deck involves 3 colors they lose to fetchlands hands down.

Does "will see play in some Modern decks" scream "must be broken" to you? If that was enough, fast lands should not have been printed. There's a *lot* of stuff you can't print if you're afraid of it being good enough to see Modern play!

Now, if your argument includes the position that fetchlands are too strong in the first place and should not have been printed either, I have an easier time understanding it.

To me the handsizelands are an excellent attempt to find a solution to the design conundrum of how to make new types of dual lands that are not simply worse than the ones that already exist, but also fall short of being as good as alpha duals or fetchlands in a way that hasn't been thought of before. Magic designers have been exploring this design space for about as long as the game existed - hence the cycle of "strange" dual lands from Future Sight that includes Grove of the Burnwillows.

Ninjaman

2017-07-23, 04:11 AM

So why are shocklands and fetchlands okay and the handsizelands are not?
Why are shocklands and fetchlands okay and typeless alpha duals aren't? Because wizards say so.
Becuase Shocklands and Fetchlands are strong because of synergy, and handsizelands are strongbecause of power.

"pretty much never" applies to the shockland/fetchland manabases as well. That's the point I was making: That getting your handsize reduced just for playing a land is a drawback that can very well lead to discarding cards (or having to play them prematurely) and losing the game as a result.
You're ignoring my main argument against them. In all decks shockland/fetchlands will matter in some matches, like against zoo or burn. In some decks however, handsizelands will never, or effectively never, do anything.
You can build a deck that can play handsizelands at no disadvantage in any match under typeless duals very easily, but for every deck that plays shocklands and fetches there will be matches where the downside will be relevant. This is because fetches and shocks depend on the opponent's deck while handsize lands depend on your own deck.
Another difference is that fetches and shocks will make you lose life, it's not always your opponent will take advantage of this life loss, but it is always there. Handsizelands however will rarely make you lose anything at all in the decks that want to play them.

You're presenting a narrative in which the handsizelands are not okay because they are "untaplands without drawbacks". The premise is faulty; they do have a drawback. We're asking if the drawback is not big enough.
I'm saying it's not. It is too easy to build and play around.

Burn decks perhaps may never feel the drawback, but burn decks are "pretty much never" going to lose to life loss either. Also, they have access to...
Burn decks will sometimes feel the drawback. They will play against other burn decks, they will play against zoo decks. You can easily take 5 damage to your own lands, and that could very easily mean the opponent will kill you a turn before he would otherwise do, giving to a turn less to draw the final burn spell. Handssizelands however will only ever be a downside if you don't have a one drop, and then you are losing anyways.

If I was going to mention fastlands, I'd have to mention all of the conditional untaplands as well.
You actually wouldn't, because all the others, (buddylands, battlelands, filterlands), don't tap for colored mana turn 1, which fastlands do.

(That's why I mentioned slowlands, by the way - as terrible as they are, they do come in untapped and tap for colored mana unconditionally, and those were the criteria I named before I listed the lands.)
Then it seems like a completely arbitrary criteria, as fastlands are far more relevant for this discussion than slowlands.

But yes - fastlands exist. They're already free untaplands in burn decks (which tend to be devoid of even 3-drops and don't want to see a fourth land) and I'm not aware they're considered broken. They certainly have done nothing to unseat fetchland/shockland manabases for burn decks that involve three colors or more.
Only being able to keep 6 cards in hand smaller downside than not being able to play your fourth land untapped. Two color burn and elves are about the only decks that can play the fastlands without downside. They could use handsizelands instead, or along with, with pretty much no change. There are tons of other decks that play fastlands and do suffer from the downside, like all the Death's Shadow decks. A lot of those decks could play handsizelands instead for a smaller downside.

They might get played before fastlands in decks that absolutely never have to worry about the hand size reduction because they empty their hands right from the start -
Except they don't need to empty their hands, they just need to play a land and a spell every turn, which most decks are already doing.

but only if those decks are 2-color. As soon as a deck involves 3 colors they lose to fetchlands hands down.
There are three colored decks that play fastlands though, and they could play handsizelands instead.

Does "will see play in some Modern decks" scream "must be broken" to you? If that was enough, fast lands should not have been printed. There's a *lot* of stuff you can't print if you're afraid of it being good enough to see Modern play!
The moment a land will see modern play it is actually on the edge of being too good, since the powerlevel in modern is so high.
I think you compare them to fastlands they are better, and fastlands are some of the few lands that actually see a lot of modern play, so being better than them is worrying. The blue shadow decks might very well prefer But what is perhaps just as worrying is that they are good in the same decks. If you made a land that was the "opposite" of fastlands so you would only play it in slower decks that would probably be fine, but you're creating even more lands for the same decks that already have lots of lands.

Now, if your argument includes the position that fetchlands are too strong in the first place and should not have been printed either, I have an easier time understanding it.
But that's not how game balance works. Fetches and shocks together are more powerful than other lands we can print, this is fine. First of all fetches and shocks are strong because of synergy, not because of raw powerlevel.
Second of all magic has a limit of four of each card per deck, this means that redundancy matters. A card like:
Lightning Shot - R
Sorcery - U
Lightning Shot deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
Might not be too good, after all it is weaker than Lightning Bolt. The thing is Lightning Shot would be perfectly fine if Lightning Bolt didn't exist, but it does, and now wizards probably don't want to allow decks to play 4 Lightning Bolts and 4 Lightning Shots.
Handsizelands could run into that problem as they along with fastlands allow fast two color decks to play solid mana bases with a minimum of downsides. And it's actually worse as the handsizelands are in most cases better than the fastlands.
Just because Lightning Bolt doesn't get banned doesn't mean every card that is weaker than lightning bolt can be printed.

To me the handsizelands are an excellent attempt to find a solution to the design conundrum of how to make new types of dual lands that are not simply worse than the ones that already exist, but also fall short of being as good as alpha duals or fetchlands in a way that hasn't been thought of before.
And it's fine that you think that but I disagree, I think fastlands hit that nail right on the head, and the fact that they see play but haven't surpassed fetches and shocks is a testament to that. I think the handsizelands are too pushed for modern, and possibly for standard too, even if they work worse in that format.

Magic designers have been exploring this design space for about as long as the game existed - hence the cycle of "strange" dual lands from Future Sight that includes Grove of the Burnwillows.
And some of them were too good, (Grove or the Burnwillows, Horizon Canopy), for them to print the full cycle. I think the handsizelands fall into this category.

Ninjaman

2017-07-23, 04:25 AM

3 of these are missing the Snow Supertype,
No (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249722) they (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386671) don't (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391965)

and Gregor and Jon are missing Eternalize and Embalm respectively
They aren't actually missing it though. It could be that Milessandre and Maester Whatevs just got some kind of reanimation ability. And Jon becoming a zombie I don't think is too fitting, neither is the word embalm.

toapat

2017-07-23, 10:30 AM

You're ignoring my main argument against them. In all decks shockland/fetchlands will matter in some matches, like against zoo or burn. In some decks however, handsizelands will never, or effectively never, do anything.

youre ignoring a very large part of deckbuilding. the Fetchlands/Shocklands are basically costless in real deckbuilding.

Storm's current incarnation has no issue passing 10 storm count, DSJ literally runs off of the fetch-shock combo. Aggro is basically 17 land, 12 creatures, and 31 lightning bolts.

No (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249722) they (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386671) don't (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391965)

They aren't actually missing it though. It could be that Milessandre and Maester Whatevs just got some kind of reanimation ability. And Jon becoming a zombie I don't think is too fitting, neither is the word embalm.

Tarkir isnt exactly A World of Ice and Fire. If i was doing a full westeros set i would have to figure out how to add the Fire supertype.

Gauntlet

2017-07-24, 04:40 AM

youre ignoring a very large part of deckbuilding. the Fetchlands/Shocklands are basically costless in real deckbuilding.

Storm's current incarnation has no issue passing 10 storm count, DSJ literally runs off of the fetch-shock combo. Aggro is basically 17 land, 12 creatures, and 31 lightning bolts.

Hand Size Lands have deckbuilding costs, but in actual gameplay they have no downsides once you've built to take advantage of them.

Fetch/Shocks have no deckbuilding costs, but in actual gameplay they have real downsides which will (occasionally) lose you games.

When a deck can trivially fulfil the Hand Size lands' deckbuilding costs, and doesn't need fetch/shocks for other reasons (i.e. Death's Shadow lists), the Hand Size lands are a major functional upgrade, which is probably not something you want to be giving to modern decks that are already reasonably strong.

Cosi

2017-07-24, 10:06 AM

Some cards:

Crumbling Field
Land (U)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
When ~ enters the battlefield, add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
T: Add W to your mana pool.

Would be a cycle. Trying to explore design space for uncommon fixing lands that produce mana on the first turn and can therefore go in aggro decks. This + Island Plains allows you to go either white 1-drop > blue 2-drop or blue 1-drop > white 2-drop, and still tap for white afterwards (disregard Island comment, I am dumb). Strictly better than Crumbling Vestige (http://magiccards.info/ogw/en/170.html), but so is Aether Hub (http://magiccards.info/kld/en/242.html).

Better Pinecrest Ridge (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/281.html)
Land (U)
T: Add 1 to your mana pool. Put a charge counter on ~.
T, remove a charge counter from ~: Add R or G to your mana pool.

Produces colored mana every other turn, but doesn't break your curve on off turns. Can also "bank" color mana for later.

Keep of Silence
Land (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, name a land card.
Non-mana abilities of the named card can't be activated.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.

Low-cost hoser for Thespian Stage combos.

Mage-Ring Aggressor
1R
Creature - Human Warrior (C)
Haste
Spell Mastery -- If there are two or more instant and/or sorcery cards in your graveyard, put a +1/+1 counter on ~ when it enters the battlefield.
2/1

Mage-Ring Guardian
2WW
Creature - Human Soldier (U)
Spell Mastery -- If there are two or more instant and/or sorcery cards in your graveyard, create two 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens when ~ enters the battlefield.
3/4

Spell Mastery on creatures.

Training Wheels
2
Artifact - Vehicle (U)
Whenever a creature crews ~, put a +1/+1 counter on that creature.
Crew 1
0/4

Vehicle design space. Would kind of like to give it Crew 0, but not sure that works.

Attended Champion
2WW
Creature - Human Warrior (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, create 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens equal to its power.
Eternalize 5WW
2/1

Slightly worse Beetleback Chief (http://magiccards.info/pca/en/40.html) that comes back as an army-in-a-can.

Too Clever For My Own Good
2WW
Creature - Elemental (U)
Flying
Exploit
When ~ enters the battlefield, exile target creature.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, return the exiled creature to the battlefield under its owner's control.
3/1

I'm not 100% sure this works, but the idea is that this has three modes, depending on how you stack the triggers and what you sack. Obviously you can use it to O-Ring one of their creatures if you have something to sack. You can also stack the exploit trigger on to of the exile trigger, sacrifice it to its exploit, and permanently exile something. Or you can stack it the other way and blink something.

Fuel the Flames
1R
Sorcery (R)
Escalate R
Choose one or more. You may choose the same option more than once --
* ~ deals 1 damage to each opponent.
* Target creature can't block this turn.
* Exile the top card of your library. You may play that card this turn.

Pretty much speaks for itself. Not sure I like the damage mode. Could try 2 damage with escalate 1R, but then the no-block mode is pretty bad. Maybe change that to two target creatures?

Resupply
2W
Instant (U)
Choose one --
* Create two 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens.
* Destroy target enchantment.

Fungal Burst
2G
Instant (U)
Choose one --
* Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn.
* Prevent all damage that would be dealt this turn.

Completing the cycle of Supreme Will (http://magiccards.info/hou/en/49.html), Doomfall (http://magiccards.info/hou/en/62.html), and Abrade (http://magiccards.info/hou/en/83.html). Might be a little underpowered, but trying to err on the side of caution.

Rakdos Arena
2RB
Enchantment (R)
If you would draw a card, instead exile the top card of your library. You may play that card this turn.
At the beginning of your upkeep, exile the top card of your library. You may cast that card this turn.
Hellbent -- If you have no cards in your hand, you may cast exiled cards you own.

Potentially punishing if you aren't hellbent, but pretty powerful once you are. Might need to go up a mana, particularly in an environment with effects like Unearth or Flashback that naturally put cards in exile.

Myriad Reflections
3GW
Enchantment (R)
Whenever a non-token creature enters the battlefield under your control, populate.

Is this better or worse on a creature? Easier to remove, but also triggers off itself.

God of Wisdom
3UU
Legendary Creature - God (M)
Flying, Undying
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, scry 2.
4UU, remove a +1/+1 counter from ~: Return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.
4/3

Exploring some God design space a little close to Hour of Devastation's. You can't (usually) activate the ability until it dies, but once you do you reset Undying. Could maybe shave some mana off the activated ability on that basis.

Siren Oracle
2UU
Creature - Siren Wizard (U)
Flying
Tribute 2
When ~ enters the battlefield, if tribute was paid, each player draws two cards.
2/1

Playing around with tribute. Might be a little too underpowered in the "off" mode, making the choice too obvious for opponents. Maybe make it a 3/2 and move the tribute and the draw down to one each?

Rule Over Ashes
2BB
Enchantment (U)
Exalted
Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, other creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn.

Black Exalted. Trying to play into the "control exactly one creature" theme from Avacyn Restored (and also Deadly Wanderings (http://magiccards.info/dtk/en/94.html)).

Soulbond Lord
2GG
Creature - Human Druid (R)
Soulbond
Paired creatures you control get +1/+1.
2/2

Obvious design space is obvious.

Rotting Remnant
2B
Creature - Zombie (C)
Retrace
3/2

Obvious design space is obvious.

Thoughtweft Call
W
Sorcery (C)
Create a 1/1 white Kithkin Soldier creature token.
Conspire

Venture Out
2G
Sorcery (C)
Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library.
Conspire

Simple conspire designs.

Rebel Encampment
3
Tribal Artifact - Rebel Fortification (U)
Fortified land has "4, T: Search your library for a Rebel card with converted mana cost 3 or less and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library."
Fortify 1

Irrigation System
1
Artifact - Fortification (C)
Whenever fortified land is tapped for mana, add one mana of any color it could produce to your mana pool.
Fortify 1

Fortify designs. The major problem here is "why do these go on lands?" Irrigation System is just a two mana rock that you pay for in installments.

Goblin Inciter
2RR
Creature - Goblin Shaman (U)
Haste
Other creatures you control with haste get +2/+0
3/1

Haste lord. Might be too good as a top end for an aggro deck. If you played hasty creatures turns 1, 2, and 3, this is nine power for 4 mana.

And some of them were too good, (Grove or the Burnwillows, Horizon Canopy), for them to print the full cycle. I think the handsizelands fall into this category.

The Grove of the Burnwillows cycle is too good because the drawback is dramatically less real in color pairs that want to play control.

toapat

2017-07-24, 10:54 AM

Fetch/Shocks have no deckbuilding costs, but in actual gameplay they have real downsides which will (occasionally) lose you games.

Fetch/shock have a very high deckbuilding cost. OR do you never build your own decks? because you have to specifically tune each of them both to your deck's natural tempo and to your mana intensity base.

In fact Fetchlands almost exclusively have deckbuilding costs and not gameplay costs outside of the rare situation of successfully building a deck that can successfully stall the opponents reliably while it gains momentum. But ive rarely ever reached the scenario where i cant play a shockland and could still win the game

Gauntlet

2017-07-24, 11:35 AM

Fetch/shock have a very high deckbuilding cost. OR do you never build your own decks? because you have to specifically tune each of them both to your deck's natural tempo and to your mana intensity base.

In fact Fetchlands almost exclusively have deckbuilding costs and not gameplay costs outside of the rare situation of successfully building a deck that can successfully stall the opponents reliably while it gains momentum. But ive rarely ever reached the scenario where i cant play a shockland and could still win the game

You have to tune the numbers of fetches / shocks / basics / etc to each other, but you can include a fetch/shock manabase in pretty much any deck (barring specific exceptions) and it will probably work just fine. The number of fetches vs shocks may change but it's not going to affect your non-land deckbuilding decisions in a particularly major way.

Throwing insults does not help you justify things.

solidork

2017-07-24, 12:13 PM

Some cards:

Better Pinecrest Ridge (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/281.html)
Land (U)
T: Add 1 to your mana pool. Put a charge counter on ~.
T, remove a charge counter from ~: Add R or G to your mana pool.

Produces colored mana every other turn, but doesn't break your curve on off turns. Can also "bank" color mana for later.

I actually quite like this. A very slight tweak to charge up lands, but I don't remember seeing it before.

Keep of Silence
Land (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, name a land card.
Non-mana abilities of the named card can't be activated.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.

Low-cost hoser for Thespian Stage combos.

Hmm. This is live against a lot more decks than just Dark Depths, but I think it might still be OK. You've dodged the really egregious stuff (if you used the Pithing Needle wording you could trap fetchlands) by making the trigger "when" instead of the standard "as". Still though, compared to things like Wasteland and Ghost Quarter: you get to keep your land, you get to stop multiple of their lands, but you have to guess beforehand what you want to name. On the other hand, it counters Wasteland. Interesting, to be sure.

Training Wheels
2
Artifact - Vehicle (U)
Whenever a creature crews ~, put a +1/+1 counter on that creature.
Crew 1
0/4

Vehicle design space. Would kind of like to give it Crew 0, but not sure that works.

Crew 0 should work. You can tap more creatures than you need to in order to crew a vehicle, so this will give all of your creatures a permanent +1/+1 every turn. That's really strong in a stall situation, probably too strong for an uncommon.

Too Clever For My Own Good
2WW
Creature - Elemental (U)
Flying
Exploit
When ~ enters the battlefield, exile target creature.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, return the exiled creature to the battlefield under its owner's control.
3/1

I'm not 100% sure this works, but the idea is that this has three modes, depending on how you stack the triggers and what you sack. Obviously you can use it to O-Ring one of their creatures if you have something to sack. You can also stack the exploit trigger on to of the exile trigger, sacrifice it to its exploit, and permanently exile something. Or you can stack it the other way and blink something.

Need to specify that it can't blink itself. It does work like you expect.

Resupply
2W
Instant (U)
Choose one --
* Create two 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens.
* Destroy target enchantment.

Fungal Burst
2G
Instant (U)
Choose one --
* Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn.
* Prevent all damage that would be dealt this turn.

Completing the cycle of Supreme Will (http://magiccards.info/hou/en/49.html), Doomfall (http://magiccards.info/hou/en/62.html), and Abrade (http://magiccards.info/hou/en/83.html). Might be a little underpowered, but trying to err on the side of caution.

I just realized that this is a Bolas-centric cycle, so only being in UBR was deliberate.

Probably have more comments later, lunch is over!

Cosi

2017-07-24, 04:21 PM

Hmm. This is live against a lot more decks than just Dark Depths, but I think it might still be OK. You've dodged the really egregious stuff (if you used the Pithing Needle wording you could trap fetchlands) by making the trigger "when" instead of the standard "as". Still though, compared to things like Wasteland and Ghost Quarter: you get to keep your land, you get to stop multiple of their lands, but you have to guess beforehand what you want to name. On the other hand, it counters Wasteland. Interesting, to be sure.

Urgh. I forgot about fetchlands completely, actually. I really want the effect to just negate the secondary effects of e.g. Ghost Quarter without messing with people's curves at all, but there's no really elegant way to negate abilities without hitting fetches. Could try a different tack:

Keep of Silence v2
Land (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, name a land card.
Lands with the chosen name gain "T: Add 1 to your mana pool" and lose all other non-mana abilities.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.

It still screws fetches some, but I think that's probably okay. It gets better against passive abilities, so maybe make the land Legendary to compensate for added power?

Crew 0 should work. You can tap more creatures than you need to in order to crew a vehicle, so this will give all of your creatures a permanent +1/+1 every turn. That's really strong in a stall situation, probably too strong for an uncommon.

My concern with Crew 0 was activating it for free, which effectively makes it a wall. I did overlook the possibility of crewing with multiple creatures, which is probably too good. Maybe put a +1/+1 counter on a single creature?

I just realized that this is a Bolas-centric cycle, so only being in UBR was deliberate.

Quibble: I think it may be based on the Hour of Devastation Gods instead, though those are based on Bolas. Abrade depicts The Locust God and Supreme Will depicts The Scarab God, though it's not clear to me if Doomfall is The Scorpion God.

Gauntlet

2017-07-25, 08:45 AM

Urgh. I forgot about fetchlands completely, actually. I really want the effect to just negate the secondary effects of e.g. Ghost Quarter without messing with people's curves at all, but there's no really elegant way to negate abilities without hitting fetches. Could try a different tack:

Keep of Silence v2
Land (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, name a land card.
Lands with the chosen name gain "T: Add 1 to your mana pool" and lose all other non-mana abilities.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.

It still screws fetches some, but I think that's probably okay. It gets better against passive abilities, so maybe make the land Legendary to compensate for added power?

If you want a Ghost Quarter / Wasteland hate card, why not just 'Lands are Indestructible / Have Hexproof/ Have Shroud'? Seems like a cleaner solution.

JBPuffin

2017-07-25, 03:11 PM

Wynn, Debonair Songblade 2UR
Planeswalker - Wynn (MR)
+1: Reveal the bottom card of your library. Wynn deals damage to target creature equal to the revealed card's converted mana cost.
-2: Prophesy 3 (To prophesy 3, look at the bottom three cards of your library. Put any number of them on the top of your library in any order and the rest on the bottom in any order.)
-7: You gain an emblem with, "At the beginning of your upkeep, this emblem deals damage to each creature your opponents control equal to the number of cards in your hand."
Loyalty: 4

Crystal Visions UU
Instant (U)
Choose one:
*Draw a card, then scry 2.
*Draw a card, then prophesy 2.

OR

Crystal Visions 1U
Sorcery (U)
Choose one:
*Draw a card, then scry 2.
*Draw a card, then prophesy 2.

Great Balls of Fire 2R
Sorcery (U)
Great Balls of Fire deals 4 damage divided as you choose among one, two, three, or four target creatures.

Disco Inferno XXUR
Enchantment (R)
When Disco Inferno enters the battlefield, put X fever counters on Disco Inferno.
U/R: Move a fever counter from Disco Inferno to target creature and gain control of that creature until end of turn. At the beginning of your opponent’s next upkeep, Disco Inferno deals damage to each creature with a fever counter on it equal to the number of creatures with fever counters on them.

Song of Ice and Fire (NOT any relation to GoT, just a convenient music-related name) UURR
Sorcery (R)
Separate all creatures target player controls into two piles. Your opponent chooses one pile; each creature in that pile does not untap during its controller’s next untap step. Song of Fire and Ice deals 3 damage to each creature in the other pile.

Cantarn Academy
Legendary Land (R)
Instants and sorceries you control cost 1 less.

Ninjaman

2017-07-25, 03:29 PM

Tarkir isnt exactly A World of Ice and Fire. If i was doing a full westeros set i would have to figure out how to add the Fire supertype.

If want to make that a mechanic of your Game of Thrones magic set then do go ahead, but I don't need to make anything snow, as shown by cards that could have been snow but aren't, and I'm not going to, as snow in quite parasitic and is not a very good mechanic.

Silfir

2017-07-25, 03:33 PM

Wynn, Debonair Songblade 2UR
Planeswalker - Wynn (MR)
+1: Reveal the bottom card of your library. Wynn deals damage to target creature equal to the revealed card's converted mana cost.
-2: Prophesy 3 (To prophesy 3, look at the bottom three cards of your library. Put any number of them on the top of your library in any order and the rest on the bottom in any order.)
-7: You gain an emblem with, "At the beginning of your upkeep, this emblem deals damage to each creature your opponents control equal to the number of cards in your hand."
Loyalty: 4

Crystal Visions UU
Instant (U)
Choose one:
*Draw a card, then scry 2.
*Draw a card, then prophesy 2.

OR

Crystal Visions 1U
Sorcery (U)
Choose one:
*Draw a card, then scry 2.
*Draw a card, then prophesy 2.

Great Balls of Fire 2R
Sorcery (U)
~ deals 4 damage divided as you choose among one, two, three, or four target creatures.

Wynn seems extremely broken. You only have to set up the bottom card once, and end up with a 4 CMC walker that straight up kills creatures with his +1 every turn. It seems like, at the very least, the +1 and -2 should be swapped.

I have a knee-jerk unfavorable response to Red direct damage spells that can't hit players, particular one that mechanically (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391897) and in name (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=393831) references cards that can do so just fine. It's really good creature removal - first pick in Limited barring a bomb rare - but it doesn't feel like a spell that shoots "great balls of fire" at all.

JBPuffin

2017-07-25, 03:51 PM

Wynn seems extremely broken. You only have to set up the bottom card once, and end up with a 4 CMC walker that straight up kills creatures with his +1 every turn. It seems like, at the very least, the +1 and -2 should be swapped.

I have a knee-jerk unfavorable response to Red direct damage spells that can't hit players, particular one that mechanically (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391897) and in name (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=393831) references cards that can do so just fine. It's really good creature removal - first pick in Limited barring a bomb rare - but it doesn't feel like a spell that shoots "great balls of fire" at all.

I'm cool with that change to Wynn.

It's largely because I don't imagine Wynn going after players that much, and as a "song spell," it's one of his spells. It's also cheaper than Pyrotechnics for this reason...at least, now that's the reason :smallsmile:.

Gonna edit another card into that post - it and Disco Inferno are...well, weird.

toapat

2017-07-25, 07:09 PM

If want to make that a mechanic of your Game of Thrones magic set then do go ahead, but I don't need to make anything snow, as shown by cards that could have been snow but aren't, and I'm not going to, as snow in quite parasitic and is not a very good mechanic.

Snow is basically as parasitic as tribal is. The problem in execution is putting it on lands which makes cards like Skred both omnipotent and massively problematic

JBPuffin

2017-07-25, 07:52 PM

toapat

2017-07-25, 08:51 PM

Dust Bowl is a mythic rare game-breaking effect...dear gods, I hope there are enough mana-producing artifacts in Magic: the Depressing to prevent this from being the last spell cast every game.

Tommy's probably alright - it's expensive, but damn it's potent.

Dust Bowl is also already a strictly worse Wasteland. the effect isnt black either, its a mono red effect since really only red is SUPPOSED to be able to kill land.

Tommygun is an overpowered Grappling Hooks

Svata

2017-07-25, 09:14 PM

Green can do it as well. Usually as a subset of noncreature permanents, but there is the occasional thing like Desecration Plague.

Carl

2017-07-26, 04:37 AM

Your thinking land freezing which is mono red. That said they've started doing freezing as an alternative to outright land destruction so it wouldn't be surprising to see it turn up in other colours in future, in which case such mass effect everyone freezing is probably white. Still totally OP, it's basically a super armageddon.

Tommy, i don't know, it somehow just doesn't capture the flavour of the weapon for me.

Cosi

2017-07-26, 10:32 AM

Tommy Gun is just Bonesplitter + Fireshrieker. That's probably slightly better than either card on its own (particularly because of the synergy, and the no extra cost), but neither of those are particularly broken. Maybe add a mana to either casting cost or equip.

If you want a Ghost Quarter / Wasteland hate card, why not just 'Lands are Indestructible / Have Hexproof/ Have Shroud'? Seems like a cleaner solution.

Because that's not what I want. It'd probably get used that way a decent amount, but the goal is a broader answer to spell lands and man lands and the like. Your suggestion is dead against e.g. Celestial Colonnade.

Svata

2017-07-26, 10:59 AM

Why would one ever run it over Ghost Quarter?

JBPuffin

2017-07-26, 11:18 AM

Why would one ever run it over Ghost Quarter?

I mean...it doesn't trigger landfall? It also can take out more than one land, which matters in non-Commander formats at least.

toapat

2017-07-26, 11:23 AM

Green can do it as well. Usually as a subset of noncreature permanents, but there is the occasional thing like Desecration Plague.

Green is not a good example of anything because its list of barred mechanics is just "Mill and Hand Attack". WotC needs to learn this and fix this problem

Svata

2017-07-26, 11:32 AM

Its also not supposed to be able to do anything to creatures, other than with fighting/ambuscade type things (i.e. you have to have a bigger creature to take theirs down). Or counter spells. Or do direct damage. Or fly. (yes, there are exceptions, but MaRo hates all of them. They are color pie breaks, outside of literally 3 cards, all of which are part of a cycle, and all of which are dragons, which necessitates having flying.)

Carl

2017-07-26, 12:24 PM

Green is not a good example of anything because its list of barred mechanics is just "Mill and Hand Attack". WotC needs to learn this and fix this problem

I strongly suggest taking a look at the mechanical colour pie article linked a few pages back, there's a lot green can't do, and a lot more green can only do in very specific ways. What i would say is that green does the basics really, really, really well.

Gauntlet

2017-07-26, 12:32 PM

Green is not a good example of anything because its list of barred mechanics is just "Mill and Hand Attack". WotC needs to learn this and fix this problem

White can do whatever it wants, as long as it is 'fair' in some way or in a manner that cares about having lots of creatures.

Blue can do whatever it wants, as long as it's being reactive rather than proactive.

Black can do whatever it wants, as long as it's willing to pay creatures/life/cards for it.

Red can do whatever it wants, as long as it's proactive rather than reactive or randomized in some way.

Green can do whatever it wants, as long as it's in a manner that cares about having creatures or lands.

toapat

2017-07-26, 05:29 PM

I strongly suggest taking a look at the mechanical colour pie article linked a few pages back, there's a lot green can't do, and a lot more green can only do in very specific ways. What i would say is that green does the basics really, really, really well.

those articles are years out of date and dont cover the shear "**** you" to balance green has gotten in the past few years

White can do whatever it wants, as long as it is 'fair' in some way or in a manner that cares about having lots of creatures.

Blue can do whatever it wants, as long as it's being reactive rather than proactive.

Black can do whatever it wants, as long as it's willing to pay creatures/life/cards for it.

Red can do whatever it wants, as long as it's proactive rather than reactive or randomized in some way.

Green can do whatever it wants, as long as it's in a manner that cares about having creatures or lands.

No, they cannot

White cannot kill planeswalkers, it cant reliably kill artifacts anymore either. it doesnt get land destruction or good topend creatures. it doesnt get counterspells. it cant get Hexproof, it isnt allowed card draw, and cannot mill. White can only tutor and recur enchantments or weenies. White cannot hand attack and cannot mill. white has no mechanisms for targeted land interference, and cannot ramp.

Blue cannot kill or exile permanents. Blue cannot attack a player's hand. Blue has the worst creatures of any color. Blue gets permanent mind control effects at very high cost, as well as time walk effects at very high cost. blue cannot ramp blue. blue Can counterspell, but does not get powerful counterspells because WotC market Research Preferentially tests for timmy and completely ignores Johnny and Spike. Blue gets to bulk draw. Blue can only Reliably tutor and recur for Spells and Artifacts. Blue can tutor anything if the opponent gets to send half (rounded up) to the graveyard

Black can kill planeswalkers and creatures. Black is occationally allowed to kill artifacts and lands. Black has the best burst ramp in the game. Black can Specifically tutor any type of card. Black can mill an opponent, black can force discard of both varieties. Black is allowed Lobotomize effects. Black can Recur creatures including creatures you do not own. Black can trade life for card draw in equal proportion.

Red is allowed direct damage, currently is rarely allowed player capable direct damage. Red can destroy Artifacts and lands. Red gets middling small creatures. Red cannot get flying except on dragons and Phoenix. Red cannot draw cards Red can only tutor for spells and Artifacts. Red gets Haste and damage doubling. Red Can temporarily ramp but not as effectively as black

Green Cannot mill, Green cannot specifically tutor for Nonland/noncreature, and any cardtype with a maximum dig stipulation, Green cannot get direct damage to face. Green can recur any type of card. It gets the most efficient creatures over 4cmc unconditionally and conditionally under that. Green should be barred from prowess entirely because of the Most efficient buff spells. but we know in Ixilan there is a mono green bear with Super-Prowess. Green gets Permanent ramp.

Its also not supposed to be able to do anything to creatures, other than with fighting/ambuscade type things (i.e. you have to have a bigger creature to take theirs down). Or counter spells. Or do direct damage. Or fly. (yes, there are exceptions, but MaRo hates all of them. They are color pie breaks, outside of literally 3 cards, all of which are part of a cycle, and all of which are dragons, which necessitates having flying.)

Ignoring flying since flying and trample basically became meaningless after RTR block, those color pie breaks are way too frequent now

JBPuffin

2017-07-26, 05:52 PM

those articles are years out of date and dont cover the shear "**** you" to balance green has gotten in the past few years

You mean the one posted in 2017 by Mark Rosewater? I don't think you do; here's the mechanical color pie as reported by WotC's face (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2017-2017-06-05).

Honestly, even if toapat wasn't objectively wrong, it wouldn't be the first time one color has ruled the roost. Blue for the longest time has been king (or queen; in my head, it makes more sense as a queen) of the mountain for the longest time. Individual blocks might favor another color/malign blue, and in casual play it could go any which way depending on the cards available, but blue started off with a bunch of nifty tricks and still has firm control of...well, a lot. Some green decks have been majorly annoying (Theros Hydras, anyone?), but it's expected that the balance shifts as new cards are printed (and broken) and R&D finds new things to tinker with.

Svata

2017-07-26, 06:23 PM

There's a couple of really good counterspells in standard right now. Supreme Will is either Mana Leak or Impulse (sure, it costs {1} more, but the flexibility is worth it.) And Disallow counters literally anything. Not just spells, but abilities.

White has both Fragmentize and Decomission in standard right now.

Red has literally more than a dozen effects that deal direct damage to players.

Temporary ramp hasn't been in black's color pie for more than a decade. That's literally only red now. Black doubles mana from swamps now, typically. Black also cannot destroy artifacts, except as a subset of creatures.

Everything else you said was "these colors all have distinct identities" and I'm not even sure that's a complaint. I'm also convinced its a good thing.

Carl

2017-07-26, 07:27 PM

You mean the one posted in 2017 by Mark Rosewater? I don't think you do; here's the mechanical color pie as reported by WotC's face (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2017-2017-06-05).

Honestly, even if toapat wasn't objectively wrong, it wouldn't be the first time one color has ruled the roost. Blue for the longest time has been king (or queen; in my head, it makes more sense as a queen) of the mountain for the longest time. Individual blocks might favor another color/malign blue, and in casual play it could go any which way depending on the cards available, but blue started off with a bunch of nifty tricks and still has firm control of...well, a lot. Some green decks have been majorly annoying (Theros Hydras, anyone?), but it's expected that the balance shifts as new cards are printed (and broken) and R&D finds new things to tinker with.

June 2017 in point of fact, so less than 2 months old. In fact one of the thing various recent colour pie articles have been noting is that in the last 12 months they've seriously overhauled how they monitor that sort of stuff because they were having issues keeping it all straight.

Cosi

2017-07-26, 10:44 PM

There's an obvious dearth of R/W Commander options that aren't "attack a lot". Here are some designs to remedy that:

Combo Guy
2RW
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
Whenever ~ deals damage to a player, you may cast an instant or sorcery card with converted mana cost less than ~'s power from your graveyard.
2/2

Infinite combo with anything that gives him a ping (e.g. Viridian Longbow (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/270.html)) + Djeru's Resolve (http://magiccards.info/akh/en/11.html). Also does other cool stuff. Not perfect, because he does still push you to attack to trigger him.

Sunforger Guy
4RW
Legendary Creature - Giant Wizard
XRW, T: Search your library for an instant or sorcery card. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Shuffle your library.
3/7

Sunforger (http://magiccards.info/c16/en/275.html) with less restrictions and higher cost on a stick. Play a toolbox deck with access to every red or white spell ever printed at the drop of a hat. I assume there's a broken combo in here somewhere.

Recursion Guy
3RW
Legendary Creature - Angel
Flying
Whenever an artifact you control dies, you may pay 1W. If you do, return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.
Whenever a creature you control dies, you may pay 1R. If you do, return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.
4/4

Pushes a grindy recursion deck in the vein of Karador or Meren, but encourages an artifact subtheme. Also super mana hungry, particularly for colors with really bad ramp.

Equipment Guy
4RW
Legendary Creature - Golem
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may search your library for an equipment card and put it onto the battlefield attached to ~. If you do, shuffle your library.
4/4

The original thought here was to have guaranteed way to give you your Sunforger. I quickly realized this guy is rarely going to do that, and is instead going to do things like grabbing a Sword so you can play "build a Titan", grabbing a Battleskull or Argentum Armor to make a giant threat, grabbing a Jitte to win combat forever, or grabbing a Skullclamp to go off with some kind of token engine. Hopefully there's enough of a toolbox to be found to make him at least worth considering as something other than Voltron.

White cannot kill planeswalkers, it cant reliably kill artifacts anymore either.

Cast Out (http://magiccards.info/akh/en/8.html) and Angel of Sanctions (http://magiccards.info/akh/en/1.html) both kill both planeswalkers and artifacts.

it doesnt get land destruction or good topend creatures.

No one gets land destruction. Top end creatures depends. Nothing I can see stands out for standard, but white gets some decent high end creatures for limited. Also, Monastery Mentor (http://magiccards.info/frf/en/20.html) is the top-end of most Vintage spell decks.

it doesnt get counterspells.

I think it's probably better to think of counterspells as something exclusive to blue, even if that's maybe not the best paradigm. Even then, things like Judge's Familiar (http://magiccards.info/rtr/en/218.html) indicate that white gets some amount of counterspelling.

it cant get Hexproof

True.

it isnt allowed card draw

Cards like Bygone Bishop (http://magiccards.info/soi/en/8.html) and Mentor of the Meek (http://magiccards.info/e01/en/15.html) beg to differ.

and cannot mill.

True.

White can only tutor and recur enchantments or weenies.

There's an artifact based WU reanimator deck in standard right now that disagrees with you.

White cannot hand attack and cannot mill.

True, though you're double booking "no mill". Also, the various white effects that allow you to name a card and make that card harder to use (most notably, Nevermore (http://magiccards.info/isd/en/25.html)) count to some degree in terms of disrupting things not yet on the battlefield.

white has no mechanisms for targeted land interference, and cannot ramp.

True on the land interference, but Knight of the White Orchid (http://magiccards.info/ori/en/21.html) and similar effects provide something not unlike ramp.

Blue cannot kill or exile permanents.

Blue gets exile effects sometimes, typically as a "polymorph" effect where you get some creature in return. For example, Blessed Reincarnation (http://magiccards.info/dtk/en/47.html).

Blue cannot attack a player's hand.

True, though there are a few Time Spiral cards out there.

Blue has the worst creatures of any color.

Tell that to Delver and Snapcaster. "Worst" is a somewhat subjective term.

Blue gets permanent mind control effects at very high cost, as well as time walk effects at very high cost.

Blue gets Confiscation Coup (http://magiccards.info/kld/en/41.html) at five mana, though it is admittedly conditional. OTOH, it's not vulnerable to enchantment removal and hits artifacts as well. Part the Waterveil (http://magiccards.info/bfz/en/80.html) is a standard legal card with upside, and it's only one mana more expensive than Time Warp (http://magiccards.info/tpr/en/74.html).

blue cannot ramp blue.

Blue gets "untap target permanent" which is a ramp effect.

blue Can counterspell, but does not get powerful counterspells because WotC market Research Preferentially tests for timmy and completely ignores Johnny and Spike.

Supreme Will (http://magiccards.info/hou/en/49.html) isn't terrible. U/R Control plays a decent number of counters to reasonable success, though I suppose whether those are powerful is necessarily subjective.

Blue can only Reliably tutor and recur for Spells and Artifacts. Blue can tutor anything if the opponent gets to send half (rounded up) to the graveyard

This is true, but Blue also gets card selection that is reasonably good.