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Goober4473
2007-08-06, 01:05 AM
So, I notice regenerate is a pretty high level spell, yet in all my years of playing, I've never seen a character lose a limb, or even a digit. Has anyone dealt with this? Maybe alternate rules? I use the wound/vitality system, so maybe taking wound damage could potentially damage/remove body parts and organs?

Hazkali
2007-08-06, 02:20 AM
Very few effects remove limbs as per the RAW. I tend towards the opinion that a critical hit that deals sufficiently high damage should cause limb loss, but obviously not if the PCs are too low a level to afford many Regenerate spells. Of course, my house-rule isn't RAW.

This is the reason I am against many Location-based damage systems, as by the RAW it is Very, VERY difficult to recover from a lost limb, whereas normal hit points are as cheap as dirt.

Goober4473
2007-08-06, 02:46 AM
I'd like to make it difficult but possible, as I have some neat ideas for replacement limbs and adventures based around finding a way to regrow something.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-06, 06:59 AM
Regenerate basically means you have to find a large city with a high priest.

I'd suggest starting with breaking limbs. It's also inconveniencing, but it grows back in a few weeks given a few heal checks.

Ranis
2007-08-06, 07:15 AM
Whenever a sufficiently large amount of damage is done by percentages to a PC's HP total, I tell them that they've lost a leg or a few fingers. They get enough money that they can pay for the Regeneration, and it adds a lot more intensity to the game when the fighter loses an arm.

Abstruse
2007-08-06, 08:00 AM
Whenever a sufficiently large amount of damage is done by percentages to a PC's HP total, I tell them that they've lost a leg or a few fingers. They get enough money that they can pay for the Regeneration, and it adds a lot more intensity to the game when the fighter loses an arm.

See, I'd be more drawn to doing that if they went into negative HP but survived. That means they took a serious, near-mortal wound but managed not to die... and that would likely have a few (most likely minor) effects.

I remember one campaign where the DM had our NPC sorcerer captured by orcs and his hands amputated. That was brutal, and as I recall the NPC coped by getting the Still Spell feat and going on a jihad against all of orc-kind.

(Our next campaign, in the same campaign world, was of relatively low-levellers and we came across more than a few bands of orcs -- male, female, and children alike -- that had just been absolutely butchered by spells. Incinerated, petrified, frozen, melted. Took the new party a bit to make the connection between the two, though.)

Ranis
2007-08-06, 08:23 AM
That makes sense, but I'm talking about when that elite guard to the boss of the dungeon gets a critical hit and takes away 75% of someone's HP or more.

lord_khaine
2007-08-06, 08:38 AM
imo making up rules for the removal of limbs just because they got crittet is unnececary cruelty to the players.

as such, the idea with HP is that you barely avoidet getting something cut off, and instead just got a scrach/flesh wound, thats slwoing you down so it will be harder to avoid the next attack.

Khoran
2007-08-06, 08:42 AM
By RAW, I can't think of anything that removes limbs off the top of my head. However, I do have a house rule where if, when confirming a crit you threaten critical again, you are now threatening vs severance. If the attack succeeds, I roll a d4 and see just what you managed to chop off.

Ranis
2007-08-06, 08:52 AM
imo making up rules for the removal of limbs just because they got crittet is unnececary cruelty to the players.

as such, the idea with HP is that you barely avoidet getting something cut off, and instead just got a scrach/flesh wound, thats slwoing you down so it will be harder to avoid the next attack.

So you're going to tell me that a critical hit from an advanced CR13 Half-Dragon Minotaur's Greataxe that is a size category larger than the norm that does well over 100 damage is going to be a scratch or flesh wound that slows you down?

Riiiiight.

Or would you prefer the fort-save-or-die rule for taking more than 50% of your HP? Can you make a DC 64 Fortitude Save at level 11? No?

Then I say losing a limb is a lot fairer.

Krrth
2007-08-06, 09:02 AM
So you're going to tell me that a critical hit from an advanced CR13 Half-Dragon Minotaur's Greataxe that is a size category larger than the norm that does well over 100 damage is going to be a scratch or flesh wound that slows you down?

Riiiiight.

Or would you prefer the fort-save-or-die rule for taking more than 50% of your HP? Can you make a DC 64 Fortitude Save at level 11? No?

Then I say losing a limb is a lot fairer.

Is this a variant? 'cause the only massive hp rule I'm familiar with is the over 50 pts of damage one, and that's a flat DC 15.

PlatinumJester
2007-08-06, 09:09 AM
One of my PC's lost a limb once. He had some cursed sword melded on to his hand and would have exploded except that the Paladin cut it off.

As for rules/penalties etc, the DM decided to allow me to remake him slightly so that I could get a Stump Knife and TWF. As penalties went I couldn't use a shield or secondary weapon that wasn't a stump knife. However I probably should have had a climb penalty as well as disguise, sleight of hand, heal (the loss of limb would slow things down etc), use rope, swim, handle animal and ride.

Still having only one arm was very fun indeed.

Ranis
2007-08-06, 09:20 AM
Is this a variant? 'cause the only massive hp rule I'm familiar with is the over 50 pts of damage one, and that's a flat DC 15.

It's a very commonly used variant rule; when a character takes more than 50% of their remaining HP in damage, they make a Fortitude Save vs Damage Taken or die.

My group used to use it all the time, 'till when I realized it was dumb and no one could ever make those saves past level 4. So I switched to the losing limbs guidelines, and it's worked out much better.

I'm not saying I cut off my players' limbs randomly; in fact, it's only happened once in the past year I've been running my current game. This doesn't mean my players aren't challenged, it just adds to the sense of danger associated with adventuring. They know full well the risks. It's enough for them.

PhallicWarrior
2007-08-06, 09:35 AM
I played a Gestalt Dark Sun campaign with a Maenad Wilder//Fighter who lost his right forearm to the BBEG. I got a replacement made from blood obsidian. The DM described it as looking like Hellboy's Right Fist of Doom. It was more of a plot device than a game mechanic. (the limb being lopped, that is, not the replacement.)

Dan_Hemmens
2007-08-06, 09:37 AM
I'm generally against permanent damage rules in D&D: even *death* is curable in D&D, after all. If you're going to introduce this kind of rule, I would suggest three important things:

One: Put this in place of an "instant kill" rule. Permanent damage is at least as serious as death in most RPGs (arguably more so, since if you die you can just create a new character). Turning Massive Damage from "instant death" to "crippling injury" could work well.

Two: Do not have the injuries defined too closely by the rules. Don't make it "lose a random limb", make it "suffer a permanent injury at GM discretion".

Three: Most importantly of all, if you introduce any rule to make combat more dangerous you *must* increase the support for non-combat solutions to problems. Traditional D&D often forces the players into fights for comparatively spurious reasons. Usually this is fine, because the fights are fun and low-consequence. But if you come out missing both legs as a result of a random encounter, you're going to be pissed off.

NullAshton
2007-08-06, 10:30 AM
So you're going to tell me that a critical hit from an advanced CR13 Half-Dragon Minotaur's Greataxe that is a size category larger than the norm that does well over 100 damage is going to be a scratch or flesh wound that slows you down?

Riiiiight.

Or would you prefer the fort-save-or-die rule for taking more than 50% of your HP? Can you make a DC 64 Fortitude Save at level 11? No?

Then I say losing a limb is a lot fairer.

No. Technically, the critical hit from that CR 13 creature would simply barely miss you, and the 'HP' lost would just be you expending energy to dodging it. That's always how I see those types of problems being resolved.

Ranis
2007-08-06, 10:33 AM
No. Technically, the critical hit from that CR 13 creature would simply barely miss you, and the 'HP' lost would just be you expending energy to dodging it. That's always how I see those types of problems being resolved.

Sorry, I'm going to disagree here. That's just silly to me.

The Glyphstone
2007-08-06, 10:59 AM
Sorry, I'm going to disagree here. That's just silly to me.

HP is silly in general:smallcool: ...but that's "normal" D&D, fighters are SUPPOSED to survive critical hits for 100+ damage without any noticable effects.

Maelstrom
2007-08-06, 11:22 AM
FOr non-critical hits, I tend to agree...but for Crits, I'd have to say there is physical damage, as well as Sneak dmg...

Otherwise it's like playing DnD in an A-team world...no one ever *really* gets hurt...

de-trick
2007-08-06, 11:43 AM
my DM's only cut off are limbs critical and rolled on are chart (but the first 50 aren't that bad standard critical or +1 critical modifier the scary ones are the 90s some are death) or called shot with a good deal of damage done

or just flavor reason like in one town they chopped of the rogues finger for stealing

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-06, 11:56 AM
If you get hit, you get hit. You can't have completely avoided it. Because there are any number of effects that trigger on being hit, like poison, that make no sense if you just barely slipped by.

I do agree, though, that that 100+ damage is merely a flesh wound. It has no effect other than taking away HP, so don't go removing internal organs, even if you did take enough points of damage to rip a bull in half.

Lopping off limbs on massive damage or criticals may well be realistic, but it'll pretty well prevent getting from level 1 to the point at which dismemberment is temporary without abandoning some characters as too crippled to keep on. Unless you meddle with it so you only are likely lose your hand after you can get it replaced. Which strikes me as just ugly.

lord_khaine
2007-08-06, 12:06 PM
It's a very commonly used variant rule; when a character takes more than 50% of their remaining HP in damage, they make a Fortitude Save vs Damage Taken or die.


actualy this is a pretty rare houserule, i have newer seen anyone mention it before.
and lopping limbs off while the person is still above 0 hp is silly, since a nonnegative number of Hp means you are still fit for fight to some degree.

as for the 100 point damage critt, on a normal person with 1 HD such a powerfull hit will indeed cut the target into something thats not alive anyone, while on the other hand a high lv fighter with 200 hp will manage to twist out of the way, so the attack only scores a flesh wound.

this is more or less the official version, when you are quoting house rules you really should mention that.

goat
2007-08-06, 12:20 PM
I can think of a few situations where regenerate could come into play. The most obvious is through capture and torture, there's a spell in the BoVD that makes someone's hand come off and attack them, and I think there's also one that breaks a random bone.

illyrus
2007-08-06, 02:12 PM
I like its use much better as a non-combat action than as a combat action. Having a BBEG use it (knocking a PC out then cutting off an arm) to send a message that he or she is not playing a game I think can be a powerful tool if done well. It has a certain shock value beyond just killing a PC that is lost if it can be a random occurance due to dice rolls.

As far as dealing with it after the limb is gone, grafts are another option, especially in a world where regenerate cannot be easily accessed.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-08-06, 02:16 PM
My DM has a house-rule (which I think is a really good idea). He re-introduces the Critical Hit Severity system from back in 2e (Combat and Tactics).

Essentially, if you roll a critical threat, and then the confirmation roll is itself a critical threat, you land a severe critical, which, in addition to being a normal critical hit for damage purposes, also has a semi-randomly determined extra effect. We typically refer to these as a "chart," because when this happens, you look at a chart which tells you what happens based on a few die-rolls.

What happens is based on the type of damage you're dealing (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning, fire, whatever), the size of the weapon relative to the target (so a big greataxe is going to hurt more than a little dagger), and the "severity."

You roll a d10 for the location at which you connect. Then you roll severity, which is based on your weapon size:

Weapon size is < target size
"Minor"
1d6

Weapon size is = target size
"Major"
2d4

Weapon size is > target size
"Severe"
2d6

Weapon is two sizes larger
"Mortal"
2d8

(Note: Arrows and bolts are considered Medium, even though they themselves are Small. Bolts from a heavy crossbow are considered Large.)

Then you match up the results on the chart: what sort of damage you do, where you do it, and how nasty it is. Effects range from mildly inconveniencing ("light bleeding," causing you to lose 1 hp every five rounds until you get the benefits of a heal spell or a DC 15 Heal check) to irritating (damaged armor) to horrid (mangled hands, broken bones, severed limbs) to deadly (decapitation or punctured heart or shattered skull).

Regrettably, I can't find a full copy of the charts online. All I can find is "Bludgeoning vs. humanoid," which can be found here (http://www.jtekconsulting.net/CoreRule/corerule.php?page=DD02717.htm). If I find anything more, I'll post it, but anyway, this should give you some idea. Oh, and an explanation of their terminology ("struck," "broken," "damaged," "shattered," etc.) can be found here (http://www.jtekconsulting.net/CoreRule/corerule.php?page=DD02715.htm).

Man, that's more complicated than it seems when you actually play it. Now I remember why 2e sucked. :P But this is a method that certainly allows for limb severing, and I've always enjoyed its use in the games I've been a part of.

Of course, I've always been the player, not the DM. So I just had to roll d10 and whatever the DM told me to, and he had to look it up. :P




That being said, there are other things that can occasionally cause a severed limb. My party once ran afoul of a guillotine trap intended to remove a person's hands at the wrists (it got a touch attack which would deal normal slashing damage, but on a confirmed critical, the hands would be chopped off). Of course, the PC who triggered it leaned his head up against the trapped door to listen.

<Trapfinder> "... perhaps I should try again."
<Me> "Yeah, take 20."
<Victim> "...." *blood pours from top of neck*

Goober4473
2007-08-06, 06:57 PM
I think I'll use a varient of that rule, Raolin. In wound/vitality, vitality points are lost as energy, bruises, small cuts, etc., while wound points are real damage. A critical hit goes directly to wound, but a critical hit on an enemy without vitality left, or a critical threat on a critical hit, could also threaten permenant damage.

Damionte
2007-08-06, 08:38 PM
In my upcomign game I've brought back a system of called shot. In this system you still only chop off a body parts when your shot brings a character to 0 or below HP's. (We also have a house rule where all parties have more than -10 HP's.

Because of this I need a way to re-attach stuff. I'm goign to go with Restoration & Lesser restoration.

I'm goign to let them use lesser restoration to re-attach small things like ears fingers, noses and toes. And full restoration to fix larger or more major things like arms, leg's or eye's.

They will also lose HP's permanently until such time as they get whatever fell off fixed. I think that's pretty fair.

ForzaFiori
2007-08-06, 09:21 PM
I use a special crit table, where if you confirm a crit, instead of doing extra damage, you do normal, plus a roll of d% on this table. the stuff goes from a broken finger to instant death, and has slightly different fluff (same basic mechanics though) for piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing weapons. its possible to lose or break fingers, legs, arms, have your throat cut, get your ribs broke, all kinds of stuff.

Matthew
2007-08-07, 12:04 PM
See, I'd be more drawn to doing that if they went into negative HP but survived. That means they took a serious, near-mortal wound but managed not to die... and that would likely have a few (most likely minor) effects.

That's the way I would be inclined to do it; as I recall, it was even mentioned in the 1e DMG as a possible alternative to outright death.