Need help nerfing a Barbarian!

[gbecchi]

Hello everybody. First time posting here.

So, I'm playing a Bard in a party with a Barbarian and a Rogue and we're all nearing Level 9. The difference in the usefulness on the combat is pretty clear, while I'm buffing and healing everybody, our Rogue is doing ~50 damage with two daggers, sneak attack and a crit while our Barbarian can do about ~200 in just one turn.
For reference: the Barbarian has a 2-Handed Axe, Power Attack (which is where most of his damage comes from) and 3 Levels in Bear Warrior (our DM let him use his axe while in bear form).

I was discussing with our party some ways we could nerf his damage (because of the damage, our DM has to put some stronger monster for us to fight, which results in most enemies almost killing the Rogue or me in one hit) and we haven't really came to a conclusion.

I'm open to any suggestions as to what we could do and will answer any questions about our game.

Thanks in advance.

[Zanos]

(our DM let him use his axe while in bear form).
Bears can't bear arms, for starters.

[Kaje]

And how useful is the barbarian in non-combat situations like social encounters and dungeoneering? Probably not very. Why is it a problem that the barbarian excels at his one thing?

[gbecchi]

Bears can't bear arms, for starters.

Yeah I know, but the DM thought it would be cool if the transformation was something like a lycanthropy instead of the usual transformation. Do you think reverting that would help?

[gbecchi]

And how useful is the barbarian in non-combat situations like social encounters and dungeoneering? Probably not very. Why is it a problem that the barbarian excels at his one thing?

It's not a problem for me, because I won't do any damage in combat anyway, but it is for the DM and our other player since our campaing is heavily focused on combat. He's not very useful outside of combat at all, but we don't have many moments where any of us shine in that way.

[Zanos]

Yeah I know, but the DM thought it would be cool if the transformation was something like a lycanthropy instead of the usual transformation. Do you think reverting that would help?
Yeah, that's what I was trying to convey.

200+ seems kind of absurd for this though.

Base 18 Strength, +4 from barbarian rage, + 8 from bear form if your DM lets them stack is 30. +2 from levels. 1d12 damage from a greataxe, +16 from strength. Maximum power attack would be +10, I think. So that's 1d12+36 damage per hit, across two hits at maximum power attack which should be taking his to hit rolls into the ground.

Something else has to be going on here.

[flappeercraft]

You could add +4 Strength from Water Orc which adds 3 damage per hit, probably a magical weapon for another +1. If you make it a Lion Totem Barbarian and have him use Leap attack and Valorous Greataxe that Quadruples the Power attack damage and doubles the rest of the damage.

So on damage 19 Strength +1 magic weapon gets you 20. Times 2 makes it 40. 10 from power attack multiplied by 4 gets you 80. Times 2 for both attacks gets you 160. If you use Whirling Frenzy rage variant this becomes 240. This is without counting 3d12 from Greataxe which leaves you at an average of 172.5 damage a round, 259 of using whirling frenzy.

If not allowing rage to stack with the bear warrior bonuses, then the average damage goes down to 166.5 and with whirling frenzy it goes down to 253 but those damages are still pretty high.

[TheCryingApple]

Well for one, rage and bear form bonuses dont stack.

"The bear warrior retains the normal +2 bonus on Will saves and —2 penalty to Armor Class while raging, but the ability score bonuses granted by rage or frenzy are replaced by Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution bonuses appropriate to the bear form taken"

Other than that, Bear Warrior does not turn a player into a Werebear. It works similarly to the polymorph spell, the player turns directly into a bear. This means that the player receives natural attacks, and cannot use their weapons.

This may or may not be a nerf. If most of the damage is coming from strength/power attack, then taking away his axe would be a buff, for a few levels at least. Using the natural attacks of a bear, you would be taking 3 attacks per turn, 2 at highest bonus. A normal barbarian would be taking 2 attacks, only one at highest.

I suggest leaving him his axe, its not a huge issue.

Other than that, if his damage comes from charging, such as leap attack and the like, have some battles in forests, where there are thick bushes and the like, which constitute difficult terrain.

Other than that, don't take away what the character is good at without giving him something in return. He would just start having less fun.

[gbecchi]

Other than that, don't take away what the character is good at without giving him something in return. He would just start having less fun.

I feel you on that.


Something else has to be going on here.

I should've also mentioned that he is a Half-Minoutaur from DM#313, but still... I'm not sure if the math from his attacks are correct or not, I'll double-check next time we play because as from what he tells me just the bonus from his Power Attack is ~30 on the damage to each attack. I've only played caster classes so I'm not really sure how the feat works but I trust that he isn't "cheating", maybe he's just incorrect.

[Waker]

Damage mechanics notwithstanding, what do you hope to accomplish? Were you feeling left out of the spotlight and wanting us to give you something to convince the DM to weaken the Barbarian?

[Zanos]

I should've also mentioned that he is a Half-Minoutaur from DM#313, but still... I'm not sure if the math from his attacks are correct or not, I'll double-check next time we play because as from what he tells me just the bonus from his Power Attack is ~30 on the damage to each attack. I've only played caster classes so I'm not really sure how the feat works but I trust that he isn't "cheating", maybe he's just incorrect.
Oh, well that makes him large and takes his strength up by another +12, so that probably has a lot to do with it.

[gbecchi]

Damage mechanics notwithstanding, what do you hope to accomplish? Were you feeling left out of the spotlight and wanting us to give you something to convince the DM to weaken the Barbarian?

I feel like you are missing the point.


(because of the damage, our DM has to put some stronger monster for us to fight, which results in most enemies almost killing the Rogue or me in one hit)


It's not a problem for me, because I won't do any damage in combat anyway, but it is for the DM and our other player since our campaing is heavily focused on combat.

[Lorddenorstrus]

A theoretical uber charger can do over 5000 damage by level 7. That's mega optimized. 200 seems like decent damage by my standards. This is an issue of optimization scale, this character sounds optimized while playing with people that don't even know what the concept of optimization is. Probably something the players / DM should sit down and discuss to find the power level you all want to be playing at.

[Zanos]

A theoretical uber charger can do over 5000 damage by level 7. That's mega optimized. 200 seems like decent damage by my standards. This is an issue of optimization scale, this character sounds optimized while playing with people that don't even know what the concept of optimization is. Probably something the players / DM should sit down and discuss to find the power level you all want to be playing at.
200 damage at level 7 is definitely not the standards of a normal table, and almost certainly not OPs table. No CR 7 monster has anywhere close to that much health.

[Rebel7284]

I should've also mentioned that he is a Half-Minoutaur from DM#313, but still... I'm not sure if the math from his attacks are correct or not, I'll double-check next time we play because as from what he tells me just the bonus from his Power Attack is ~30 on the damage to each attack. I've only played caster classes so I'm not really sure how the feat works but I trust that he isn't "cheating", maybe he's just incorrect.

Oh yes, Half Minotaur certainly helps with that. That template is so poorly thought out. Large size is already worth +1 LA. Having excellent stat modifiers makes it a great template, and then they had to add the "If the creature size changes, use Monster Manual table to boost stats further" part. That's clearly completely and utterly ridiculous for +1LA. That adds TWICE as much strength as Lolth touched, and that's considered an overpowered template! Sure, it's just damage, but it utterly breaks combat. My suggestion is that the DM take a second look at the template, note that it's way over the top (just compare to Half-Dragon and the +3LA that costs, or the Races of Destiny version of Half-Ogre) and remove the size change bonuses as those are totally already accounted for in the base template modifiers.

Personal story:
Early in my D&D career, when I first started optimizing, I build a character for my little brother to join his very first D&D game. 4th level.
The build I gave him was Half Minotaur Goliath Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 with exotic weapon proficiency for a Huge Jovar (Planar handbook 17-20 crit range greatsword.) He didn't really know how to play the build, but the 30-50 damage per hit made level 4 encounters completely boring and saying that he overshadowed the other (unoptimized) characters is an understatement. The game fell apart quickly anyway due to conflicting schedules, but it was just silly.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I was discussing with our party some ways we could nerf his damage (because of the damage, our DM has to put some stronger monster for us to fight, which results in most enemies almost killing the Rogue or me in one hit) and we haven't really came to a conclusion.


Talk to the DM about using more monsters, rather than stronger ones. This serves to accomplish two things.

First, it prevents the Barbarian from just rolling over one or three miniboss creatures inside of five rounds of combat.

Two, it's technically not a nerf at all. The rest of the party still contributes as normal. The Barbarian gets the satisfaction of crushing his enemies, and seeing them driven before him, but doesn't demolish every encounter practically single-handedly.

I think of this method as a 'soft difficulty spike'. More bodies on the field means more chances to get hurt, but you worry much less about being splatted in one or two good hits.

It also doesn't have the side-effect of jacking up the CR of your encounters, causing them to gush exp in a comically-large shower of numbers when slain.

[OldTrees1]

Just have the Barbarian do less damage without impacting the rest of their character. From your description of the damage sources, the DM could easily adjust the average damage by reducing the total Power Attack multiplier (usually by refunding some of the PA multiplier feats for not PA multiplier feats). For example Leap Attack could be replaced with Knockback. On the other hand if the damage is mostly Strength based, the DM could offer an extra feat in exchange for reducing the damage from Strength without otherwise reducing Strength.

But this is something for the DM to decide and implement. Not the Bard.

[Hackulator]

He is probably using some sort of combination involving Leap Attack, Shock Trooper or Combat Brute. Combat Brute would let him get +30 damage on his power attack the round after he charged, I believe.

[Sam K]

Well, letting him use his axe when shape changed is probably overkill if he's already dominating on the damage. But it IS cool, and opens up all kinds of "right to bear arms" jokes!

Which problem are you actually solving?

1. That the barb is doing too much damage?
2. That the DM is putting too tough monsters in your path?
3. That the other players are dying too much?
3a. That the other players don't feel capable of contributing as much as they would like?

For #1: If the damage is really the problem, then well, you have a half minotaur (most insane template ever) barb with house rules making him even more dangerous. Start with removing the house rules. Is he using whirling frenzy/pounce? Perhaps the DM can talk to him about ret-conning those alternative class features in the name of balance?

For #2: Like someone suggested, talk to the DM about introducing multiple smaller monsters instead of one big one. Multiple smaller monsters are less likely to one-shoot you, and the barb is less likely to one-shoot them. Also, the DM could introduce monsters with more defence against the barbarian, so they become more challenging without dealing more damage. For example, a creature could have a combination of reach and the Stand Still feat: this can effectively stop the barb from charging, meaning he is unable to wreck quite as much face. Likewise, things like mirror image and miss chance can effectively reduce the barbarians damage output in some fights, without improving their ability to one-shoot you.

#3 (and 3a): there seem to be a serious difference in optimisation level between the barb and the rest of the party. You don't tell us much about your bard and the rogue, though. Would you be able and willing to look at how you could improve those characters instead of nerfing the barb, or perhaps a combination (like remove the barbs house rulings, while making some changes to your characters)? All this assuming the DM isn't fanatically opposed to retraining/rebuilding, of course.

Final question: does your DM consider the current situation a problem? That's a pretty central thing...

[lord_khaine]

I second the suggestion about firstly suggesting that the ½ minotaur template is perhaps broken enough to get replaced by something else.
And either the DM needs to introduce more enemies that uses PA on their own. Or else Shock trooper needs to be nerfed. I really do think thats a badly designed feat.

[Fizban]

So, I'm playing a Bard in a party with a Barbarian and a Rogue and we're all nearing Level 9. The difference in the usefulness on the combat is pretty clear, while I'm buffing and healing everybody, our Rogue is doing ~50 damage with two daggers, sneak attack and a crit while our Barbarian can do about ~200 in just one turn.
For reference: the Barbarian has a 2-Handed Axe, Power Attack (which is where most of his damage comes from) and 3 Levels in Bear Warrior (our DM let him use his axe while in bear form).
Well there is some question as to how much of the damage is from your buffs, but I'm skeptical that Power Attack is actually most of the damage. With a maximum BAB of 8* that's only 16 points without leap attack. With half-minotaur's effective +12 str and +8 from bear, I'm getting 36 str on a conservative estimate, for +19 with a two-handed weapon.


I should've also mentioned that he is a Half-Minoutaur from DM#313, but still...
Is anyone else using overpowered templates? I bet the rogue isn't.

I'll also second the other guesses of being allowed Whirling Frenzy (a direct power increase) while using bear form (which explicitly doesn't allow rage stacking), probably OMGSLTBPounce as well. Say the bardsong is maybe +3 and we have: 6.5+19+16+3= 44.5 per attack. With two iteratives, haste, and a free attack from frenzy that's close enough to 200 without so much as a magic weapon. Even without the ubercharge build I assume he's using (because "melee should have nice things") he'd have +17 attack from str+bard+haste on a standing full attack when eating the whole power attack penalty.

So you want to nerf the barbarian? Make him play by the rules and make him drop his overpowered templates and ACFs. Convert him to a Dragonlance minotaur or a goliath, stop letting him use an axe when in a bear form that expects him to not be wielding a weapon, dump Whirling Frenzy and its no-downside power boost if he's got it, dump lol pounce if he's got it, and so on.

*Shall we take bets on weather he's actually got the +1 LA? Because LA buyoff is fair and balanced :smallsigh:

[Mordaedil]

I think this is solved by simply giving the rogue and you some ways to survive and ride on that barbarian as he handles the gruff amount of effort.

Give the rogue some way to turn invisible so that he can unleash his sneak attacks constantly and also escape unscathed as long as he moves tactically, buff your bard by having your songs and buffs protect your entire team and help them overcome odds they would otherwise not be able to overcome.

At this point you might as well ride the cart all the way to a maximisers dream land and destroy the balance outright. HAve the DM throw gods at you guys and watch as your barbarian God of War's his way through.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Break the bard and the rogue as well. All aboard the cheese express!

[ExLibrisMortis]

Give the rogue the shadow-walker and dark templates, and point them to the Telflammar Shadowlord PrC. As bard, get yourself a nice charisma-boosting template, maybe half-fey. Fight fire with fire, so to speak; make the entire party that much stronger. Don't forget to use Words of Creation and Song of the Heart to boost your Inspire Courage. Remind the rogue to pick up Craven - maybe get the DM to waive the drawback. If the barbarian can wield an axe in bear form, you can be a sneaky backstabber who's not a coward.

[emeraldstreak]

Half-Minotaur Axe-wielding Bear does damage

That's to be expected.



Give the rogue some way to turn invisible so that he can unleash his sneak attacks constantly and also escape unscathed as long as he moves tactically.

Unless pre-errata invisible blade is available, I'd suggest

- rebuilding the rogue for Darkhidden Darkstalker

- swapping the rogue for optimized unarmed strike build at lvl 10


I don't think asking the DM to intervene against the Barbarian will work longterm, if he really wanted to do it he has had plenty of chances to do so already.

[Eldariel]

Shall we take bets on weather he's actually got the +1 LA? Because LA buyoff is fair and balanced :smallsigh:

LA buyoff is fine, it's the template that's broken. LA is way too expensive for classes with relevant class features (mostly higher tier) otherwise.

[DEMON]

The crazy 1/2-Minotaur template seems to be overkill. Replacing it with something like the Goliath, who's no slouch either, would go a long way to "nerfing" this Barbarian.

The you can move from there and so how the inter-party balance works out.

[Vizzerdrix]

Honestly I think the dm should be the one asking us this. Send em our way.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Chalk me down as another vote for "replace the Half-Minotaur template with something less doofy" and "maybe fewer Power Attack boosters, if they have any." (I'm assuming; otherwise I'm not sure how you're getting +30 damage out of a power attack that should only go up to -9/+18).

[gbecchi]

200 damage at level 7 is definitely not the standards of a normal table, and almost certainly not OPs table. No CR 7 monster has anywhere close to that much health.

Yeah, that's the main issue for us, the last few fights we were up against CR 13 monsters and he still stomped through them.


Talk to the DM about using more monsters, rather than stronger ones. This serves to accomplish two things.

I feel that is very valid and something our DM hasn't really tested to see if he feels overpowered, I'll definitely talk to him about that.


Is anyone else using overpowered templates? I bet the rogue isn't.

He actually isn't. We didn't find anything that would suit him very well. Then again, maybe we didn't look hard enough.


Final question: does your DM consider the current situation a problem? That's a pretty central thing...

Yep, it was his idea in the first place I'm just the BEARer of the message (sorry)


there seem to be a serious difference in optimisation level between the barb and the rest of the party.

I'm personally not really trying to be OP (maybe I should given the circumstances), I'm doing a Fochlucan Lyrist build and our Rogue is going the Assassin route (he is pretty new to D&D and doesn't like to "theorycraft" very much)


But this is something for the DM to decide and implement. Not the Bard.

I'm aware. I'm just trying to help the DM posting in a forum of which language I'm really the only one who speaks in our party.

[Eldariel]

There are also various kinds of encounters. Ranged, kiting casters, flying enemies and such are generally much harder to charge to death. That said, yeah, the numbers are bonkers but that's mostly due to Half-Minotaur and the Bear Warrior houserule: I'd look at placing some nerfs into the mix if you allow the Bear to use equipment á la Werebear, since otherwise it's much stronger than default.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Honestly, this is something that next time you're going to catch at a session zero. It seems you started the game with different expectations. The barbarian got quite some leeway with cheese and RAW-questionable options on top of decent optimization while the both of you designed more standard characters. Neither of those options is bad mind you, both can be a lot of fun, but it does make the party a little unbalanced when they're combined. The DM can up to some point try to tailor the fight to your strengths rather than the barbarians, provide more but weaker enemies, maybe some fliers or ranged units, that might help to a degree. One of the downsides is that the barbarian has this awesome build but doesn't really get to use it like intended anymore. There will have to be a balance between challenging him and letting him just have fun.

If you want to fix the balance without forcing the universe to conform to certain standards, you need to either take away something from the barbarian or add something to the other PC's (or a combination). To decide which, you're still going to need to have your session zero. What do the four of you together want out of this game? Adjust the builds for that. If you go for "add something to the others" then as a bard you're going to have a comparatively easy time catching up as you level, playing a pretty versatile caster class. The rogue might need to seriously consider some of the more optimized and/or cheesy options out there. Several people already posted good suggestions in this thread. If you decide on the "take something from the barbarian" option, as your first post suggests, then at this point I'd go after the options that mostly just give him bigger numbers, rather than anything that gives his character interesting options you'd be taking away from him. If he uses his gore attack a lot, let him keep some form of being a half minotaur. If this was a new character being suggested I'd suggest taking out the half minotaur template (and maybe replace it with something homebrew based on the much more reasonable half giant, if that is a thing he still wants on top of the goliath base creature) as well as him using his axe while being a bear. But at this point: see what you can do to save his play style while reigning in his damage per round.

RPG's can sometimes be a bit like starting up an online FPS and finding out you entered a dedicated role playing server. Can still be fun, but it isn't what you were expecting.

[Zanos]

Well for one, rage and bear form bonuses dont stack.
You choose when entering rage whether or not to assume bear form instead. If you spent two activations you could bear form and then rage normally, and as they are untyped the bonuses and penalties would mostly stack other than the parts that are morale.


Break the bard and the rogue as well. All aboard the cheese express!
You only work to make a character optimized when most people are optimizing, not when only one person is.


Chalk me down as another vote for "replace the Half-Minotaur template with something less doofy" and "maybe fewer Power Attack boosters, if they have any." (I'm assuming; otherwise I'm not sure how you're getting +30 damage out of a power attack that should only go up to -9/+18).
Grod's got it right here. No +12 strength templates, no triple power attack boosters or whatever he's using.