Fighter/Rogue tank build with Shield Master, can't find it!

[Crusher]

Someone, a while back, outlined a primarily Rogue tank build with Shield Mastery that I remember as sounding delightful. IIRC, it started with a level of Fighter but was primarily Rogue after that. There may well be a few of them, but I've done some searching and can't find it for the life of me.

If this rings a bell for anyone who happens to have a link, I'd appreciate it! Thanks!

[MeeposFire]

The old iron rogue perhaps?

[MightyK]

The old iron rogue perhaps?

You mean the Iron Scoundrel probably?

showthread.php?405449-Shield-Master-Rogue-The-Iron-Scoundrel

cant post links yet...

[Corran]

Iron Scoundel: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405449-Shield-Master-Rogue-The-Iron-Scoundrel&highlight=The+Iron+Scoundrel

Relevant threads:
1) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499076-One-Sword-One-Swipe-One-Kill&highlight=sentinel+rogue
2) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496792-Theorycrafting-sentinel-rogue&highlight=sentinel+rogue
3) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?523587-Fighter-Rogue-1-5-or-5-1

Enjoy!!!

[Crusher]

You mean the Iron Scoundrel probably?

showthread.php?405449-Shield-Master-Rogue-The-Iron-Scoundrel

cant post links yet...

Yep, thanks!

[Crusher]

Iron Scoundel: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405449-Shield-Master-Rogue-The-Iron-Scoundrel&highlight=The+Iron+Scoundrel

Relevant threads:
1) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499076-One-Sword-One-Swipe-One-Kill&highlight=sentinel+rogue
2) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496792-Theorycrafting-sentinel-rogue&highlight=sentinel+rogue
3) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?523587-Fighter-Rogue-1-5-or-5-1

Enjoy!!!

Ah, even better! That second relevant thread was the one I was looking for. Thanks!

[coolAlias]

Shield Master is a great feat, but it loses a lot of its charm on a Rogue.

Consider:


The shove takes a bonus action, something that Rogue already has a lot of uses for. Still really nice, for sure, but you can already bonus action hide to get advantage.
Shield bonus applies to Dex saves against single-target spells; nice, but you already have Dex save proficiency and high Dex, so you're probably going to save anyway. Still, extra insurance isn't terrible.
No damage vs. AoE Dex save for half effects, which you already get from Rogue 7 Evasion ability. This one you only benefit from if you take it early, and then not at all after Rogue 7.


Considering that overlap, I would probably only take Shield Master on such a character if he is either the lone tank/melee in the party OR if there were multiple melee characters and none of them are a Wolf totem Barbarian and none of them took Shield Master.

I would also take it for the sole reason that it was the kind of character I wanted to play. ;)

[Citan]

Shield Master is a great feat, but it loses a lot of its charm on a Rogue.

Consider:


The shove takes a bonus action, something that Rogue already has a lot of uses for. Still really nice, for sure, but you can already bonus action hide to get advantage.
Shield bonus applies to Dex saves against single-target spells; nice, but you already have Dex save proficiency and high Dex, so you're probably going to save anyway. Still, extra insurance isn't terrible.
No damage vs. AoE Dex save for half effects, which you already get from Rogue 7 Evasion ability. This one you only benefit from if you take it early, and then not at all after Rogue 7.


Considering that overlap, I would probably only take Shield Master on such a character if he is either the lone tank/melee in the party OR if there were multiple melee characters and none of them are a Wolf totem Barbarian and none of them took Shield Master.

I would also take it for the sole reason that it was the kind of character I wanted to play. ;)
What you say would be very true for a pure Rogue, but OP (and threads) was talking about Fighter / Rogue build. And that makes things very different.

DEX saves
So you can either start Fighter (because you go EK / AT and want good concentration) and get proficient in STR and CON >>> Shield Master +2 is a good help here. Even more if you went with 14 DEX (medium armor) to focus on STR instead, although I would indeed go for a DEX build personally (with Expertise, no need for THAT much STR imo ;)).

Or you could start Rogue because you are going for a pure martial build, but go STR based to get balanced saves everywhere and get extra good Shove (as said above, I think it's overkill but I can understand it).

Furthermore, if you want to get up to Fighter 5 for Extra Attack, it means that Evasion will be delayed by that many levels. So having a "reaction Evasion" can be useful until then.
Or maybe you went Rogue just for Expertise and Cunning Action, in which case you never get Evasion. ;)

Hide VS Shove
This is not the same thing at all.
First, Hide is really not always an option: you must be unseen at the very least, which is often very difficult to achieve in melee except racial features such as Halflings' (or Gnomes'? Don't remember) or obscuration spells (or Greater Invisibility, but it's fairly high-level).
Second, Hide only benefits YOU, and for a single attack only (since you reveal yourself as soon as you attack if I'm not mistaken -otherwise why the Skulker feat? ;)-).
Shoving prone benefits any and every attack coming hereafter until the creature's turn starts: if you have Extra Attack, better for you. If you have allies in melee, much better overall.

[djreynolds]

What you say would be very true for a pure Rogue, but OP (and threads) was talking about Fighter / Rogue build. And that makes things very different.



You know for a pure rogue, moderately armored isn't terrible.

And expertise in athletic with an 8 in strength is the same as martial with a 20 in strength +11 by level 17

Also before swashbuckler, rogues needed advantage to sneak attack without a buddy in melee. So this was sure way for a rogue to get advantage... bonus action shove and then stab. And rolling with advantage means you most likely will not miss.

So its not a terrible direction for a rogue, but I do agree with coolAlias that shield master and moderately armored might be too steep with cunning action

[Citan]

You know for a pure rogue, moderately armored isn't terrible.

And expertise in athletic with an 8 in strength is the same as martial with a 20 in strength +11 by level 17

Also before swashbuckler, rogues needed advantage to sneak attack without a buddy in melee. So this was sure way for a rogue to get advantage... bonus action shove and then stab. And rolling with advantage means you most likely will not miss.

So its not a terrible direction for a rogue, but I do agree with coolAlias that shield master and moderately armored might be too steep with cunning action
I totally agree with you, I'd even go beyond and say that a melee pure Rogue could very well build as STR and use medium armor and shield by just grabbing the feat.
And this combo is still very relevant for any Rogue (DEX or STR) that would get access to Booming Blade one way or another, because BB = be in melee, and in melee if you want to stick a bit -especially to get a chance at OA- you want great AC so shield is the obvious addition. :)

With that said, for the sake of getting medium armor, unless you go Variant Human, I'd personally prefer taking a dip somewhere (usually Cleric ;)) to get it early and easily, with added benefits. It costs in the long run but I'm okay with that.

[coolAlias]

What you say would be very true for a pure Rogue, but OP (and threads) was talking about Fighter / Rogue build. And that makes things very different.

~snip~

Good points, especially about the Dex saves on a multi-classed Rogue.

For Hide vs. Shove, that was what the section at the end was about even though it didn't specifically call it out - if I'm the lone tank/melee character, i.e. I won't be able to Hide, then Shove is the best option; likewise if there are multiple melee characters none of whom have a way to give the rest of us advantage, then Shoving is a great option.

And absolutely - if you're dipping Rogue rather than dipping Fighter, then Shield Master all the way.