[Thought exercise]What creatures to combine with the Symbiotic Creature template?

[danielxcutter]

The Symbiotic Creature template from Savage Species combines two creatures that must be of the Animal, Humanoid, Plant, or Vermin creature types(though they don't have to be the same type as each other; just one of those four types).

The "guest" must be two or more sizes smaller than the "host", and the composite creature uses the "guest's" mental stats, the "host's" physical stats, HD, movement types, and AC, and both of their special abilities and attacks.

They also use whoever's saves are better, and the skill ranks are the host's. with the guest's as a racial bonus on top.

I've been giving it a look, and I get how to use it... but I'm not sure what creatures to staple together to make a good encounter(because good luck getting a DM to greenlight one of these as a PC). The standard "the combined abilities of both the host and the guest" type, not the "Awakened Dread Blossom Swarms or Greenbound Half-Fey Quasits as hosts" type.

Obviously, fusing a caster-type(possibly an actual caster; most are humanoid anyways) to a huge, powerful beatstick is probably the best way to go about it, but my monster knowledge is far from a mental encyclopedia. So I'd love some specific examples. Combinations that synergize well, especially not just in the terms of stats, are highly suggested.



Oh, and just remember... this is just a thought exercise, but try to think of this as an actual encounter that you'd use on your players, not as a cheesy theorycrafting example. At the very least, try to stick to the template's intended use.

[DrKerosene]

This seems like your basical Druid races should work for Humanoids, with all mental stats being desired, so a Venerable Kobold? Maybe a Magic in the Blood Venerable Gnome? Races with Con penalties are not so bad, so a Venerable Changeling with -10 Con is usable.

And whatever animal you want/your DM will allow. A Dire Mammoth or Legendary Horse might be cool, but a Killer Whale could make for an interesting campaign. Dire Eagle might be a good pick. I would probably describe such in-game similarly to a Halfling Ubermount.

I'm not so good with useful vermin or plants, but monstrous spiders or scorpions seem cool. But I imagine an awakened bush (pear tree?) with a big hornet or something (partridge?) could be fun.

Any Class with a good Will Save should be a fine option. This seems kinda like neutered Gestalt Rules....

[danielxcutter]

This seems like your basical Druid races should work for Humanoids, with all mental stats being desired, so a Venerable Kobold? Maybe a Magic in the Blood Venerable Gnome? Races with Con penalties are not so bad, so a Venerable Changeling with -10 Con is usable.

That sounds amusing. Not sure what Magic in the Blood is though.


And whatever animal you want/your DM will allow. A Dire Mammoth or Legendary Horse might be cool, but a Killer Whale could make for an interesting campaign. Dire Eagle might be a good pick. I would probably describe such in-game similarly to a Halfling Ubermount.

Weeeeeeell, this is a thought exercise for making interesting encounters, not making PCs, so the answer is "anything that isn't horrible, horrible cheese".

Never thought of Dire Eagle, admittingly. I keep forgetting that fast bruisers are at least as good as tough bruisers for the host as well.


I'm not so good with useful vermin or plants, but monstrous spiders or scorpions seem cool. But I imagine an awakened bush (pear tree?) with a big hornet or something (partridge?) could be fun.

The most ridiculous example is the Devestation Vermin from the ELH. And are unlikely to come up outside of high-level epic campaigns, but I did say ridiculous.


Any Class with a good Will Save should be a fine option. This seems kinda like neutered Gestalt Rules....

I agree with this, about the "neutered Gestalt" thing. That's what I thought too.

[unseenmage]

Templates intended uses are for chumps.

Greater Humanoid Essence on a couple of appropriately sized Animated Object pieces of furniture to make them technically humanoids for the duration then *somehow* Symbiotic-ize them before it wears off.

Read no further...



Human Centipede meets the animated objects from Disney's Beauty and the Beast.


More usefully there's a link in my sig to a few lists of random animals and vermin AND a few lists of every template that does not change their type.
Could make for some interesting combos.

Also, the Gigantean and Miniature templates from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary could allow for some juxtaposed Master//Blaster pairings.
Gigantean Stirge with a Miniature Bugbear symbiote anyone?

[danielxcutter]

Templates intended uses are for chumps.

:smallsigh: Just for the purposes of this thought exercise, you know.


Greater Humanoid Essence on a couple of appropriately sized Animated Object pieces of furniture to make them technically humanoids for the duration then *somehow* Symbiotic-ize them before it wears off.

Read no further...



Human Centipede meets the animated objects from Disney's Beauty and the Beast.


I did not need that mental image.


More usefully there's a link in my sig to a few lists of random animals and vermin AND a few lists of every template that does not change their type.
Could make for some interesting combos.

Hm, interesting. Will check this.


Also, the Gigantean and Miniature templates from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary could allow for some juxtaposed Master//Blaster pairings.
Gigantean Stirge with a Miniature Bugbear symbiote anyone?

...lemme guess, third-party?

[unseenmage]

:smallsigh: Just for the purposes of this thought exercise, you know.
Yeah, yeah. I guess.

Here, just to be useful, That Damn Crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) or a Siege Crab (MM3pg157) could be a neat base creature.



I did not need that mental image.
Neither did I. What springs unbidden from within mine mind I claim no control nor dominion over. (especially when I should be sleeping instead of posting)



Hm, interesting. Will check this.
Please do, would be nice to know if someone else gets some use out of some of my work. My apologies that it isn't more comprehensive. The game I originally made it for died, as so many do.



...lemme guess, third-party?
Yeah, additionally the Amalgam template from the same book is what the Symbiotic template wishes it was. Disclaimer, I've played extensively with the Amalgam template, not so much the Gigantean or Miniature.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, yeah. I guess.

Here, just to be useful, That Damn Crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) or a Siege Crab (MM3pg157) could be a neat base creature.

Huh, I've seen That Darn Crab here and there a lot, but I forgot that it's a Vermin and can be used for the host part as well. Might have to advance it or add a few templates to make it more relevant at higher levels... though not much, obviously. :smalleek:

Is the Siege Crab a good monster? I know it's probably not on the scale of it's Damn cousin, but it sounds like a good host. Even without any special attacks or anything, crabs in this game seem to be great beatsticks. And the shortcomings could be covered with the right guest.


Neither did I. What springs unbidden from within mine mind I claim no control nor dominion over. (especially when I should be sleeping instead of posting)

That explains a bit...


Please do, would be nice to know if someone else gets some use out of some of my work. My apologies that it isn't more comprehensive. The game I originally made it for died, as so many do.

Eh, not too bad. Might look a bit more into Neogi; those don't sound like plain animals.


Yeah, additionally the Amalgam template from the same book is what the Symbiotic template wishes it was. Disclaimer, I've played extensively with the Amalgam template, not so much the Gigantean or Miniature.

Amalgam? I thought there was one in PF that was more open-ended than Symbiotic IIRC... but I haven't heard of this one. How does it work?

[Zsaber0]

A Bulette and an Aboleth, each with the Wood element template.

[danielxcutter]

A Bulette and an Aboleth, each with the Wood element template.

One: why? No seriously, do they go together well?

Two: Where is the Wood element template?

[unseenmage]

...

Amalgam? I thought there was one in PF that was more open-ended than Symbiotic IIRC... but I haven't heard of this one. How does it work?
Advanced Bestiary has some templates up on PFSRD for PF but they didn't change much from the 3.x printing. Basically just ignore the CMB/CMD stuff and you can use the PF versions for 3.x well enough.

As for how it works, you literally just mush any two monsters together. The Amalgam retains the higher of most of its numbers including HD and CR.
There's a type hierarchy so anything except constructs combined with an undead become undead, and anything combined with a construct becomes a construct.
A line of text at the bottom tells us how to adjudicate stuff the template doesn't cover (like swarms and combining a controllable monster with an uncontrollable one); 'Retain as much from both monsters as possible.'

There's also a Monstrous Lycanthrope template in the book too but 1) Lycanthropy is an awful method for combining monsters and 2) Their version is just kinda badly written/edited and you're better off just using the normal Lycanthrope template with the type restrictions removed; it's what you'd have to rewrite their into anyway.

Speaking of lycanthropy, you might want to check out the Entomanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a), aka the were-vermin template. Could be some neat interactions with the Symbiotic template; Could combine bugs with your bugs before combining bugs with your bugs for some of that double bugged in goodness.

Edit: Oh yeah the Siege Crab. It has the distinction of being both a giant bug, comes in two sizes even, AND a tank. Basically its a giant bug the party can ride around in. Which makes sticking a Symiont on it that can act like a turret or cannon thematically amusing IMHO.

[danielxcutter]

Advanced Bestiary has some templates up on PFSRD for PF but they didn't change much from the 3.x printing. Basically just ignore the CMB/CMD stuff and you can use the PF versions for 3.x well enough.

As for how it works, you literally just mush any two monsters together. The Amalgam retains the higher of most of its numbers including HD and CR.
There's a type hierarchy so anything except constructs combined with an undead become undead, and anything combined with a construct becomes a construct.
A line of text at the bottom tells us how to adjudicate stuff the template doesn't cover (like swarms and combining a controllable monster with an uncontrollable one); 'Retain as much from both monsters as possible.'

Oh, then this one is the same thing that I'd seen.


There's also a Monstrous Lycanthrope template in the book too but 1) Lycanthropy is an awful method for combining monsters and 2) Their version is just kinda badly written/edited and you're better off just using the normal Lycanthrope template with the type restrictions removed; it's what you'd have to rewrite their into anyway.

Huh. Okay.


Speaking of lycanthropy, you might want to check out the Entomanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a), aka the were-vermin template. Could be some neat interactions with the Symbiotic template; Could combine bugs with your bugs before combining bugs with your bugs for some of that double bugged in goodness.

Heard about this before. Is this template any good? Like, does it grant a significant and notable change in power?

[unseenmage]

...

Heard about this before. Is this template any good? Like, does it grant a significant and notable change in power?
Sadly, I am no judge of power. My brain doesn't like to math very well, but it comprehends layered effects just fine.
So game balance and math-wise? No clue but from what I remember reading it's no better nor worse than the bog standard lycanthrope.
As for what extra layered effects it brings to the table? Maybe if the Symbiont is lycanthropic one could curse bitten victims with symbiotic lycanthrpy? Not certain this works but it might.
Would be one helluva weird lycanthopy. Under the light of the full moon Joebob the Barbarian transforms into not one bug monster but two conjoined ones.


Might also be interested in the Anthropomorphic template from Savage Species. Turns animals into humanoids. Doesn't change their size or anything but it could change which part of your Symbiont has the hands and which part doesn't.

[danielxcutter]

Sadly, I am no judge of power. My brain doesn't like to math very well, but it comprehends layered effects just fine.
So game balance and math-wise? No clue but from what I remember reading it's no better nor worse than the bog standard lycanthrope.
As for what extra layered effects it brings to the table? Maybe if the Symbiont is lycanthropic one could curse bitten victims with symbiotic lycanthrpy? Not certain this works but it might.
Would be one helluva weird lycanthopy. Under the light of the full moon Joebob the Barbarian transforms into not one bug monster but two conjoined ones.

IDK, the Symbiotic template does say that the result creature retains all special qualities and attacks... but the result creature doesn't spread the lycanthropy that way I think, because Symbiotic is applied after that.


Might also be interested in the Anthropomorphic template from Savage Species. Turns animals into humanoids. Doesn't change their size or anything but it could change which part of your Symbiont has the hands and which part doesn't.

Hmm, interesting.

[unseenmage]

For further template stacking, or even just mild template seasoning, here's a neat page that I always find useful (https://web.archive.org/web/20170108052749/http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12219.0). Check out the lower posts for lists of templates by creature type sorted by whether they change the type and what they change it to.

[danielxcutter]

For further template stacking, or even just mild template seasoning, here's a neat page that I always find useful (https://web.archive.org/web/20170108052749/http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12219.0). Check out the lower posts for lists of templates by creature type sorted by whether they change the type and what they change it to.

Not exactly what I'm looking for(I do think I said no templates), but not bad.

Oh, nice new avatar btw.

[torrasque666]

For further template stacking, or even just mild template seasoning, here's a neat page that I always find useful (https://web.archive.org/web/20170108052749/http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12219.0). Check out the lower posts for lists of templates by creature type sorted by whether they change the type and what they change it to.

Thank you for showing me that page. It led to my creation of a Symbiote Half-Minotaur Orc/Wood Elemental Spell-Warped Very Young Concordant Evil Archdragon.

[unseenmage]

Not exactly what I'm looking for(I do think I said no templates), but not bad.
Well, you said no super cheesey ones anyway. Which is why I suggested things like Entomanthrope and Anthropomorphic. More neat tricks templates than unlimited power templates.


Oh, nice new avatar btw.
Thank you. It's less new, more of a golden oldie. My most powerful artificer's best two minions, a Gondsmen and a Dedicated Wright. Can't recall their names after all these years though... guess I'll have to go dig them up.


Thank you for showing me that page. It led to my creation of a Symbiote Half-Minotaur Orc/Wood Elemental Spell-Warped Very Young Concordant Evil Archdragon.
You're very welcome. I know that I was quite relieved to see it was still available after the crash.

[Zsaber0]

One: why? No seriously, do they go together well?

Two: Where is the Wood element template?

Wood Element template is from Manual of the Planes, changes the base creature to plant, making it viable for symbiotic, and removes the aquatic subtype from aboleth letting it breath out of water. So you then have a huge burrowing monster that can sneak up to you from beneath and if it gets near you you are now unable to breath air for 3 hours.

granted when I first posted from memory I was remembering pathfinder statistics for the bulette and aboleth, but it still sort works in 3.5.

[Waker]

With the default example being a Sturge/Bugbear, I imagine some might have the mindset that if a humanoid is used, it should be the host creature. But I like the idea of a humanoid being a guess to a larger creature. Say you're out adventuring and suddenly you are beset by a gigantic wasp! Wait, why does it also have the head and arms of a gnome?! Sweet Elhonna, why?!

[danielxcutter]

With the default example being a Sturge/Bugbear, I imagine some might have the mindset that if a humanoid is used, it should be the host creature. But I like the idea of a humanoid being a guess to a larger creature. Say you're out adventuring and suddenly you are beset by a gigantic wasp! Wait, why does it also have the head and arms of a gnome?! Sweet Elhonna, why?!

Bonus nightmare points if the guest is a caster type. Oh, there's a gigantic spider over there why in the name of Pelor does it have the torso of that necromancer we were looking for growing out of it's back oh gods he can still cast spells