If Redcloak had Disintegrate ready...

[bluish_wolf]

... why didn't he just cast it at the friggin' ship in the first place? Blow a ten foot wide hole in the deck and it will sink. No need to try to attack the defenders or anything. Especially considering he was planning on sinking it from the beginning. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html)

I mean, come on.

[Ithekro]

Cause just blowing a hole in the side of the boat isn't fun. He admits this is more difficult than he expected, so I'd guess he was doing this partly to amuse himself. Plus you never know when you might actually need a Disintegrate against an enemy with class levels or a stray PC.

[ChopSticks28]

A little hole in a ship that big would'nt sink it. At least not immidiately. And they can just, you know, fix the hole... I'm sure there are tons of neat spells that can do that.

[zyphyr]

The boat and the refugees aren't all that important, and not worth the waste of the spell. Commander of the Sapphire Guard is worth it.

[Spiryt]

Well, obviously, ugh, I mean....

Maybe junk has high fortitude save. But indeed, he could at least try...

Or maybe Disintegration doesn't work that way in OoTS.

[Ikkitosen]

Double hull?

[Revlid]

"Captain! All ten thousand hulls have been breached!"
"The fools! If only they'd built it with ten thousand and one hulls! When will they learn?!"

[nagora]

... why didn't he just cast it at the friggin' ship in the first place? Blow a ten foot wide hole in the deck and it will sink. No need to try to attack the defenders or anything. Especially considering he was planning on sinking it from the beginning. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html)

I mean, come on.

Never use your last offensive spell on anything other than things that threaten you or directly block your plans. There was no reason for him to think that all high-level opposition was accounted for, so hanging on to one big shot makes sense. That there's still a war zone, after all.

[SPoD]

Never use your last offensive spell on anything other than things that threaten you or directly block your plans. There was no reason for him to think that all high-level opposition was accounted for, so hanging on to one big shot makes sense. That there's still a war zone, after all.

Yeah, I agree with this. Sinking a boat full of helpless refugees with a 7th level spell would have been overkill, and Redcloak isn't that foolish with his resources. See the beginning of the strip, where he refuses to waste resources killing a shark that can't attack him right now. Or the duel with the High Priest, where he starts with the lowest level spell that could possibly incapacitate the foe. Marshalling his available resources to maximum effect is very in-character for him, so I find it totally believable that he would be saving a Disintegrate for a worthy target.

Hell, if Hinjo hadn't announced that he was the Commander, Redcloak wouldn't have cast it even then! I mean, he had the chance to Disintegrate Lien and/or the shark, too, but he passed. Not a high-value target. Commander of the Sapphire Guard, though? Very high-value.

[Cen]

If he'd just sank the junk he'd get less XP ;-)

[bluish_wolf]

A little hole in a ship that big would'nt sink it. At least not immidiately. And they can just, you know, fix the hole... I'm sure there are tons of neat spells that can do that.

Well, technically Disintegrate is a 10x10x10 foot cube, so it's hardly a small hole.


Yeah, I agree with this. Sinking a boat full of helpless refugees with a 7th level spell would have been overkill, and Redcloak isn't that foolish with his resources.

The summoned octopus is on the Summon Monster VII list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVII.htm) In other words, it's also a 7th level spell. It's also a lot more versatile to keep around in case of emergency. You can always use extra bodies, but Disintegrate can only be used in certain cases.

[SPoD]

The summoned octopus is on the Summon Monster VII list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVII.htm) In other words, it's also a 7th level spell. It's also a lot more versatile to keep around in case of emergency. You can always use extra bodies, but Disintegrate can only be used in certain cases.

I disagree, because Summon Monster takes a full round to cast. If he had used Disintegrate on the boat first, Hinjo would have just jumped off it while it was sinking and charged Redcloak anyway. Even with a 10-foot hole in it, that boat would take several minutes to fill up with water and sink below the surface. It's not an automatic death sentence, especially not for mid- to high-level characters standing on the deck. Redcloak wouldn't have had time to cast Summon Monster VII before Hinjo was in his face, chopping him up. (Remember, the octopus was the only thing keeping Hinjo from charging Redcloak the moment he showed up; he probably cast it before stepping out from cover.)

Redcloak was cautious, using the spell with the longer casting time when there was no immediate threat and saving the spell with the short casting time until someone was about to get into melee with him.

I'm not saying it's the only possible strategy, but it's hardly foolish on his part.

[bluish_wolf]

Except Redcloak is a cleric, not a wizard. Clerics have armor and decent hit points, so being attacked while casting isn't that big a deal. Besides, jumping over is a all of his actions for the round (walk to side of ship/jump), meaning that Redcloak probably would have already have finished casting the spell before Hinjo starts attacking.

Also, do you really want your last ditch attack to require an attack roll? Miss and you blow everything.

[nagora]

Except Redcloak is a cleric, not a wizard. Clerics have armor and decent hit points, so being attacked while casting isn't that big a deal. Besides, jumping over is a all of his actions for the round (walk to side of ship/jump), meaning that Redcloak probably would have already have finished casting the spell before Hinjo starts attacking.

Also, do you really want your last ditch attack to require an attack roll? Miss and you blow everything.

You make many good points but you have overlooked one vital one: attacking a ship with a giant octopus is FAR more fun than using disintegrate on it. Both for Redcloak and us.

Go Team Harryhausen!

[Ave]

I just wonder which divine sphere Disintegrate belongs to.
To me it is a genuine wizard spell.
Huh.

[SPoD]

Except Redcloak is a cleric, not a wizard. Clerics have armor and decent hit points, so being attacked while casting isn't that big a deal.

That's "in theory". But Redcloak doesn't look like he's wearing armor, isn't carrying a weapon, and we have no evidence of what his Constitution is. He might have a worse AC and less hp than a wizard of his level. You're confusing optimal situations with the reality of what the characters have shown us so far. There's no evidence Redcloak has the AC or the hp to handle a melee confrontation, regardless of what an "optimized" cleric might have.

Besides, Redcloak has had his spells interrupted while casting before, by both Soon and Miko. There's every reason to think that he might have had them interrupted by Hinjo as well. Just because the cleric you build in your weekly D&D session can handle casting in melee doesn't mean that Redcloak, the specific character seen in the comic, can.


Besides, jumping over is a all of his actions for the round (walk to side of ship/jump), meaning that Redcloak probably would have already have finished casting the spell before Hinjo starts attacking.

No, see, you're missing the true sequence of events:
• Round 1: Redcloak disintegrates a hole in the ship. With no octopus blocking the way, Hinjo immediately moves and jumps, stopping in mid-air because he doesn't have enough movement to complete his jump.
• Round 2: Redcloak begins casting Summon Monster VII. Hinjo finishes his jump as a move action and attacks Redcloak as a standard action. Redcloak must make a Concentration check, which will be very hard if Hinjo has managed to save a Smite Evil.
• Round 3: If Redcloak passed his check, summons a monster, then casts another spell (we have no idea what he has prepared, if anything). Monster tries to attack Hinjo, but probably doesn't do much damage. Hinjo full attacks Redcloak.

A giant octopus is actually no real threat to Hinjo individually, it was just a nuisance because it blocked his path. It grappled him and he wasn't even visibly injured. That's why he left its defeat to his underling.


Also, do you really want your last ditch attack to require an attack roll? Miss and you blow everything.

Yes, I'll take a probably-lethal Ranged Touch Attack roll with my cleric BAB against an armor-wearing foe over the regular attack roll of a summoned monster that does a whopping 1d4+5 damage per attack. It's an attack roll either way, but the summoned monster has no chance of killing Hinjo outright.

Almost by definition, your last ditch attack should be physically capable of stopping a powerful foe cold in one round. If it doesn't, then it won't be of any use when it's the last bullet in your gun. No summoned monster could do that, even if Redcloak cast the spell before Hinjo got there.

[The Florist]

Go Team Harryhausen!

Hear hear!

[Attilargh]

I just wonder which divine sphere Disintegrate belongs to.
To me it is a genuine wizard spell.
Huh.
Destruction. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm)

[BobTheDog]

What I find disturbing is that he used a spell whose effectiveness is mostly based on the assumption that the target will fail its Fort save on a high-level paladin. I mean, Hinjo probably has at least a +12 on his save, and a saved disintegrate deals a mere 5d6 damage. A flame strike would be much more effective, affect multiple targets, and would cost him only a 5th level spell.

Go figure.

[Peregrinus]

Historically, junks were compartmentalized (like modern ships) to prevent holes from sinking them. The 10x10x10 area a disintegrated would have done to the ship's hole would likely not have caused the junk to list, to say anything of sinking.

And I think Rich might have been avoiding the inevitable "Redcloak disintegrated Hinjo's junk..." thread that would have popped up...

[Jimorian]

What I find disturbing is that he used a spell whose effectiveness is mostly based on the assumption that the target will fail its Fort save on a high-level paladin. I mean, Hinjo probably has at least a +12 on his save, and a saved disintegrate deals a mere 5d6 damage. A flame strike would be much more effective, affect multiple targets, and would cost him only a 5th level spell.

Go figure.

Well, don't forget Hinjo was taunting him as he attacked, and for Redcloak this whole battle is personal, and you can see why he may have popped a higher spell than perhaps strictly necessary in this case.

I'm liking Redcloak as a villain figure. Certainly more 3-dimensional than most in movies, and pretty darned competent. For some reason, the character dynamics of the evil side makes me think of the OotS team as commanded by Belkar with Roy as 2nd.

[SPoD]

I find the information on the junk interesting; if Rich and/or Redcloak knows that, it would explain everything. An octopus that can crush the entire hull is definitely a better choice against a boat that is so compartmentalized.

A quick trip to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_%28ship%29) confirms that junks had watertight compartments and could survive a breach in any one of them. I guess that wraps this discussion up.

(Although frankly, I think we all know the real reason: Redcloak casually whipping out a Disintegrate as Hinjo leaps is cooler and makes for a more fun read. Effectiveness isn't really a standard that anyone in OOTS lives by when compared to style, and I, for one, am glad.)

[Rajhiim]

Redcloak continues to become more and more my favorite bad guy... It's tough now to choose between Xykon and Redcloak!

[GWLlosa]

Now here's the question for all those people who like to figure out exact stats/level/feat progressions of the OOTS characters....


Hinjo didn't get a chance to finish his little speech. Redcloak blasted him in mid-sentence.

Was that a QUICKENED disintegrate? What level spell is that?

[RobbyPants]

... why didn't he just cast it at the friggin' ship in the first place? Blow a ten foot wide hole in the deck and it will sink. No need to try to attack the defenders or anything. Especially considering he was planning on sinking it from the beginning. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html)

I mean, come on.
It's like that scene from Austin Powers where Dr. Evil and his son are arguing about the best way to dispose of Powers. Dr. Evil comes up with some contrived, easily-escapable scenario and Scott just want's to shoot them. Dr. Evil has to explain to him that that's "just not how it works."

Same principle.

[Palpie]

Redcloak seems to have been expecting to find just a boat of civies maybe protected by a Diago or two. Summoning a monster is both an effecient way to deal with them and funny (well to a evil goblin cleric with good reasons to hate humans). Also since Disintegrate is his domain spell he can only prepare it once per day. He could have multiple summoning spells prepared so using one doesn't limit his ability to respond to situations.

Also Sod spoiler:
Given what happened the only time we know Redcloak cast flamestrike I'm not sure it's a spell he prepares or uses very much if at all.

[ag30476]

So that debate here is that Redcloak had 2 7th level spells to choose from in attack an object and a character and he used spell 1 to attack the object and spell 2 to attack the character but he should have used spell 2 to attack the object and spell 1 to attack the character because spell 2 might have worked better on the object disregarding any countermeasures and spell 1 might have worked better on the character disregarding any countermeasures even though spell 1 failed to be effective against the object because of countermeasures and spell 2 was a effective against the character despite countermeasures?

[Fighteer]

Now here's the question for all those people who like to figure out exact stats/level/feat progressions of the OOTS characters....

Hinjo didn't get a chance to finish his little speech. Redcloak blasted him in mid-sentence.

Was that a QUICKENED disintegrate? What level spell is that?
Speaking is a free action. However, it's likely that Hinjo's attempt to jump from the junk to the pier exceeded his movement allowance for the round, allowing Redcloak to blast him in "mid air", as it were. The Giant is usually pretty good about maintaining rules integrity, especially where it concerns the life or death of one of the major characters.

[Ganurath]

Speaking is a free action. However, it's likely that Hinjo's attempt to jump from the junk to the pier exceeded his movement allowance for the round, allowing Redcloak to blast him in "mid air", as it were. The Giant is usually pretty good about maintaining rules integrity, especially where it concerns the life or death of one of the major characters.I think it's more like this:
:hinjo: Talk enough to take a full round, then attack!
:redcloak: Same stuff, but reverse order.

BobTheDog: Yes, Hinjo probably has a good save, but we can safely determine from the 21 not saving against :redcloak:'s level 5 Slay Living that Hinjo would need at least a 24 to save, possibly more. So, the stats lean in RC's favor.

[BobTheDog]

BobTheDog: Yes, Hinjo probably has a good save, but we can safely determine from the 21 not saving against :redcloak:'s level 5 Slay Living that Hinjo would need at least a 24 to save, possibly more. So, the stats lean in RC's favor.

Actually, a 21 wasn't enough to save against Destruction (Clr 7), so Disintegrate would have the same DC (assuming he has no feats to change that). Wisdom 20 would yield a DC of 22, and since Hinjo seems to have successfully saved, it's a plausible possibility. More than that would be overkill, imho.

[Quikngruvn]

Actually, a 21 wasn't enough to save against Destruction (Clr 7), so Disintegrate would have the same DC (assuming he has no feats to change that). Wisdom 20 would yield a DC of 22, and since Hinjo seems to have successfully saved, it's a plausible possibility. More than that would be overkill, imho.

Hinjo didn't save. If he had saved he would have only taken 5d6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) damage-- 30 points tops if Redcloak rolled all 6's. Had that been the case Hinjo would have been barely scuffed. No, Hinjo ate 30 to 32d6 points of damage (average 105 to 112 points of damage), and the only reason he survived is because he was at full HP to begin with.

[BobTheDog]

Hinjo didn't save. If he had saved he would have only taken 5d6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) damage-- 30 points tops if Redcloak rolled all 6's. Had that been the case Hinjo would have been barely scuffed. No, Hinjo ate 30 to 32d6 points of damage (average 105 to 112 points of damage), and the only reason he survived is because he was at full HP to begin with.

Makes sense. I was thinking along the lines of "he saved, and the damage was high". But 26ish damage doesn't look like it'd bash Hinjo that much.

[chibibar]

Redcloak did right by saving his spells. You don't want to waste your spell in a seige to a city. you NEVER know what might come up. Redcloak was saving his spells for more important things. This is why you have minions to do your work. Originally Redcloak thought it was just a ship, not a ship with high level PC :)

[Elliot Kane]

Yeah, I agree with this. Sinking a boat full of helpless refugees with a 7th level spell would have been overkill, and Redcloak isn't that foolish with his resources. See the beginning of the strip, where he refuses to waste resources killing a shark that can't attack him right now. Or the duel with the High Priest, where he starts with the lowest level spell that could possibly incapacitate the foe. Marshalling his available resources to maximum effect is very in-character for him, so I find it totally believable that he would be saving a Disintegrate for a worthy target.

Hell, if Hinjo hadn't announced that he was the Commander, Redcloak wouldn't have cast it even then! I mean, he had the chance to Disintegrate Lien and/or the shark, too, but he passed. Not a high-value target. Commander of the Sapphire Guard, though? Very high-value.

I think this is completely spot on.

Redcloak's a smart guy, and he's not going to waste one of his strongest spells on a ship - especially when he doesn't know what the opposition is capable of doing to counter it. All you need to patch a hole is tarpaulin and tar - easy to find on a ship. And that's NON magically. Magically there are loads of solutions.

[asland32]

Hinjo is not dead because he is not a pile of ash on the pier. Either he saved and took a few d6's damage, or he failed and took up to 40d6 (level dependent). I believe he saved because:
few d6's - This is the end of a rather long battle seqeunce/war. No-one is still at full hit points as they've all been being battered, while he didn't die he was down enough that this would knock him out.
Also, he would take falling damage (at least 1d6, possibly 2) from landing on the pier.
saving throws - Paladins get to add their constitution and charisma to their saving throw and Fortitude is their best save as well.

[Porthos]

I believe he saved because:
few d6's - This is the end of a rather long battle seqeunce/war. No-one is still at full hit points as they've all been being battered, while he didn't die he was down enough that this would knock him out.
Also, he would take falling damage (at least 1d6, possibly 2) from landing on the pier.

There is no way he made his save. :smallsmile:

Check out Comic #453 where he successfully saved versus Harm and took at least 55 points of damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html). Now compare what Hinjo looks like in that strip versus the current strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html). In the first instance (at least) 55 hp of damage moderately scuffed him. In the current installment he is literally covered from head to toe in marks. Even if he took max damage, that is still only 42 - 48 points gone (30 from a max 5d6 and 12 - 18 from a max 2-3d6 of falling damage).

Now he probably did take a small amount of falling damage after being hit with Disintegrate. It's the old Insult to Injury thing going on.

So, in summary, O-Chul may have been the toughest of all of the Sapphire Guard, but Hinjo is no slouch either. :smallsmile:

[Learnedguy]

Well, technically Disintegrate is a 10x10x10 foot cube, so it's hardly a small hole.



The summoned octopus is on the Summon Monster VII list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVII.htm) In other words, it's also a 7th level spell. It's also a lot more versatile to keep around in case of emergency. You can always use extra bodies, but Disintegrate can only be used in certain cases.

Yeah, why waste two level VII spells on some junk? The octopus already should have been enough to crush that junk if it weren't for that unexpected opposition.

[Aquillion]

What I find disturbing is that he used a spell whose effectiveness is mostly based on the assumption that the target will fail its Fort save on a high-level paladin. I mean, Hinjo probably has at least a +12 on his save, and a saved disintegrate deals a mere 5d6 damage. A flame strike would be much more effective, affect multiple targets, and would cost him only a 5th level spell.

Go figure.He was low on spells and picked the best one that would give him a shot at a kill, I think. He probably didn't have too many options left.

[Chronos]

Remember, too, that the falling damage (if any) came after the disintegrate. And while Disintegrate can't reduce a target to negative HP (because it would turn them to ashes instead), a fall immediately after a Disintegrate could. So if Hinjo survived the Disintegrate, he would almost certainly also survive the fall immediately afterwards, too. He may well be in the negative HPs and dying, but considering where he landed, that's not too big of a problem (any magical healing, even a 0th-level Cure Minor Wounds, will stop a character from dying, and it's inconceivable that Durkon has used up absolutely all of his spells, right down to the orisons).

[Kurald Galain]

This is the end of a rather long battle seqeunce/war. No-one is still at full hit points as they've all been being battered,

Well, he IS standing to the campaign's biggest medicine box...

( :durkon: )

[Quikngruvn]

I'm still not convinced Hinjo took any falling damage. To take falling damage, he would have had to have fallen more than 10 feet, and he doesn't go more than ten feet above the deck of the junk. Maybe if he had jumped straight up from the railing before being knocked back, but he jumped forward, toward the shore.

So no, falling damage isn't certain in this case.

[David Argall]

Strictly, Redcloak should have used Disintegrate on the ship. The junk could survive this? Maybe, but how would Red know that? Without reading SOD, it seems likely he grew up in the hills and may have never seen a ship, much less know that a particular type could likely survive a hit.

A much more reasonable scenario is that the lich actually started thinking "How do I get to the other side of the sea? I need a ship for that... Ship? Didn't Redcloak say something about sinking the last ship?"
"You two hobs. Go tell your big pobah he is not to sink that ship. And hurry. The 2nd one to deliver the message gets to have his head be my bowling ball."

[Evil DM Mark3]

Cos he thought there was something valuable on it.

[tainsouvra]

Strictly, Redcloak should have used Disintegrate on the ship. The junk could survive this? Maybe, but how would Red know that? Without reading SOD, it seems likely he grew up in the hills and may have never seen a ship, much less know that a particular type could likely survive a hit. By the same argument of ignorance, however, it is unlikely that he would know that Disintegrate would normally be a sure-fire way to sink the ship--so ignorance doesn't really dictate either course of action.

I would also point out that the summon in question, had there not been high-level characters defending the ship, would have been able to both sink the ship and cause significant non-goblinoid casualties, while Disintegrate could only accomplish the former and would leave the troops to handle all of the survivors rather than a diminished group. As Redcloak had been expecting less resistance on the ship, the summon would be the logical conservation-of-resources course of action, which he is beginning to prefer with the hobgoblins.

[bluish_wolf]

I think it's pretty common knowledge that disintegrate causes things to turn to dust.

[tainsouvra]

I think it's pretty common knowledge that disintegrate causes things to turn to dust. However, Redcloak would know his own spells well enough to know that Disintegrate would only put a 10' hole in the boat, not turn the whole thing to dust. Almost the entire boat would be without a scratch, except that one spot. If we're presuming his inexperience with boats, that might not seem like enough to sink it--and, indeed, it wouldn't have been enough.

[Dalenthas]

Please, consult the FAQ:

Q: In Strip #X, why didn.t character Y take action Z? If they had done so, they could have avoided a whole lot of trouble.

A: You just answered your own question. The strip is ABOUT the trouble these characters get in; if a tactic would result in an effortless solution to their latest problem, there would be little point in showing it, see? The characters are woefully inefficient as a result, and often take actions that are rarely seen in a real D&D game, like running away from moderate danger or .forgetting. major abilities for the sake of a joke. But their foibles are what fuel the humor.

[bluish_wolf]

Apparently, there were perfectly legitimate reasons why he wouldn't use it, so it's kind of silly to say that now.

[Palpie]

This is the end of a rather long battle seqeunce/war. No-one is still at full hit points as they've all been being battered, while he didn't die he was down enough that this would knock him out.
Nice theory except for this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html
That's the last time we saw Hinjo get hurt and Durkon hits him with a heal at the end. And since he had no scratches/wounds shown prior to being hit with the disintegrate there is every reason to think he was at full health. And as already pointed out compare his current state to how he looked after surviving Harm.

[Hagentai]

Well, obviously, ugh, I mean....

Maybe junk has high fortitude save. But indeed, he could at least try...

Or maybe Disintegration doesn't work that way in OoTS.

hehe ehehe hehe you said that dude's junk has a high fort (loL).

[BobTheDog]

hehe ehehe hehe you said that dude's junk has a high fort (loL).

That might come in handy if Hinjo decides to hang around the red-light district. :smallwink:

[PaladinFreak]

He went with the Giant Fiendish Octopus because it is so much cooler that way!

[kabbes]

So that debate here is that Redcloak had 2 7th level spells to choose from in attack an object and a character and he used spell 1 to attack the object and spell 2 to attack the character but he should have used spell 2 to attack the object and spell 1 to attack the character because spell 2 might have worked better on the object disregarding any countermeasures and spell 1 might have worked better on the character disregarding any countermeasures even though spell 1 failed to be effective against the object because of countermeasures and spell 2 was a effective against the character despite countermeasures?

Now that is absolute genius. Surely that ends the whole discussion right there?

[Quikngruvn]

I'm still not convinced Hinjo took any falling damage.

Obviously I was wrong here, since Durkon says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0481.html) that smacking his head on the deck knocked him out cold.

[wadledo]

That to me sounds like flavor more than reality, because he has a name, he's not evil, and he's not a main character, so he can't die without problems.
Also, maybe Disintegrate is different in OOTS.

[Wolfwood2]

One reason not mentioned.

Remember how Redcloak became Supreme Leader in the first place? If I were him, I would always keep at least one powerful, single-target spell in reserve to smack down potential challengers with. I'm sure some of those hobgoblin clerics probably think they they would make pretty skiffy bearers of the crimson mantle.

Hobgoblins are organized and loyal but Redcloak still has to be ready to deal with a challenge for leadership duel at any time. They are evil, after all!

[ag30476]

So that debate here is that Redcloak had 2 7th level spells to choose from in attack an object and a character and he used spell 1 to attack the object and spell 2 to attack the character but he should have used spell 2 to attack the object and spell 1 to attack the character because spell 2 might have worked better on the object disregarding any countermeasures and spell 1 might have worked better on the character disregarding any countermeasures even though spell 1 failed to be effective against the object because of countermeasures and spell 2 was a effective against the character despite countermeasures?
Now that is absolute genius. Surely that ends the whole discussion right there?

That won't end the discussion and stop calling me Surely...