Archivist spells/role problem

[ArchBook]

Playing as a archivist and having some serious problems with finding my role during a battle. Our team is composed of a druid (battlefield controller), wizard (loves to be at the front and uses only dmg spells), fighter, swashbuckler and me (druid and fighter are level 8 the me and the rest are level 7).
I know that the archivist can be a great support but honestly don't want to play this role because of two reasons:

1. We're playing as a bunch of individuals and not as a team (so no coordinated attacks)
2. The druid is a one man army. He is wiping every encounter with ease leaving no room for the fighter and swashbuckler.

98% of the encounters are against human fighters and archers.
The DM allows us to use any 3.5 book plus thanks to some warlock, artificer shenanigans I can literally use any spell.
Honestly I have no idea how to use this character at its fullest and would appreciate some help with finding the best role and spells.

[Esprit15]

Dip into cleric and death delver. You'll lose two caster levels, but get two turning pools. DMM Persist party buffs.

[NoAnonimo]

I would suggest to take a single Cloistered Cleric level (Boost saves, bunch of skill points and low level spells plus three domains )

If you can, take Undeath and Planning domains (that will give you two extra feats and extra spells, wich will be great for the next step).

Take Persist Spell and Divine Metamagic: Persist feats. That will allow you to cast a couple 24hs long spells (there are so many great support and offensive spells, plus you can learn a spells of a los of sources): For support, Elation and Conviction, Mass are really good. For offensive power there are so many that I cant count... cloud of knifes is a good low level option

Expand your turning pool with items like reliquary holly symbol and so on, so you will be able to give several all-day whole-party buffs in no time.

[Gildedragon]

Buff the party... or at least the wizard and fighter.
What's in your prayerbook?

Also as an archivist: figuring out tactics for the team is pretty handy

[Hackulator]

When you say "any spell" do you mean you have every divine spell in your prayerbook or you can cast ANY spell, divine or otherwise through some sort of shenanigans?

[Maximum Carnage]

Not to take anything away from you, but you're playing with the two most OP classes in the game, both the wizard and the druid are tier one classes, so that means they can do just about everything better than anyone else. Instead of trying to outshine the others, just try to have fun with the class you've chosen. I'm not familiar with the archivist, but do you like supporting? Evocating? Try to pick a niche and stay there, as opposed to thinking of the best possible optimization for your class.

[Hackulator]

Not to take anything away from you, but you're playing with the two most OP classes in the game, both the wizard and the druid are tier one classes, so that means they can do just about everything better than anyone else. Instead of trying to outshine the others, just try to have fun with the class you've chosen. I'm not familiar with the archivist, but do you like supporting? Evocating? Try to pick a niche and stay there, as opposed to thinking of the best possible optimization for your class.

The archivist is pretty much tier 1 with a bullet too, so your lack of familiarity with the class is causing you to make some incorrect assumptions.

[ColorBlindNinja]

A one level dip into Sacred Exorcist lets you use Divine Metamagic, other than that, maybe you could coordinate with the Wizard with battlefield control tactics?

Debuffing might be a good route to take too.

[Esprit15]

The archivist is pretty much tier 1 with a bullet too, so your lack of familiarity with the class is causing you to make some incorrect assumptions.

Yeah. Archivist arguably outshines both, given its better chassis than a wizard and better spell selection that a druid. I've had good luck just exploiting their Dark Knowledge ability. They are amazingly powerful party supports.

[Hackulator]

Yeah. Archivist arguably outshines both, given its better chassis than a wizard and better spell selection that a druid. I've had good luck just exploiting their Dark Knowledge ability. They are amazingly powerful party supports.

Archivist with enough access to scrolls is basically has the rainbow serpent capstone as its base spellcasting style, since A LOT of the best arcane spells can be turned into divine scrolls one way or another.

[Dingoman]

Find a cleric with the celerity or time domain, get them to teach you haste. Tell the martial classes to stick by you at the start of the fight, always give out haste. They'll love you.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So... you've got two low-tiers, a blaster wizard, and a Druid going all-out. Hmm... I suggest you take on the challenge of buffing your fighter-type buddies back to competence. Persistent Spell is not ideal for this, sadly; there aren't many party-wide spells that have a fixed or personal range, meaning you need something like Occular Spell (cheesy) to change the targetting, or four levels of Spellguard of Silverymoon (legit, but arcane-- and won't kick in for a few more levels). On the other hand... Southern Magician will let you cast an arcane spell occasionally, which will arguably let you take Spellguard. Or, perhaps even better, War Weaver, who's the single best buff-distributor in the game.

In any case... the Archivist is at their best when they're cherry-picking spells off other lists. Especially if they can get normally arcane spells, like you apparently can. Check out this resource (http://web.archive.org/web/20160309182721/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12661). Haste as a 1st level spell, anyone?

[ColorBlindNinja]

So... you've got two low-tiers, a blaster wizard, and a Druid going all-out. Hmm... I suggest you take on the challenge of buffing your fighter-type buddies back to competence. Persistent Spell is not ideal for this, sadly; there aren't many party-wide spells that have a fixed or personal range, meaning you need something like Occular Spell (cheesy) to change the targetting, or four levels of Spellguard of Silverymoon (legit, but arcane-- and won't kick in for a few more levels). On the other hand... Southern Magician will let you cast an arcane spell occasionally, which will arguably let you take Spellguard. Or, perhaps even better, War Weaver, who's the single best buff-distributor in the game.

In any case... the Archivist is at their best when they're cherry-picking spells off other lists. Especially if they can get normally arcane spells, like you apparently can. Check out this resource (http://web.archive.org/web/20160309182721/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12661). Haste as a 1st level spell, anyone?

You could take Reach for Persisting spells on the rest of the party.

[Maximum Carnage]

The archivist is pretty much tier 1 with a bullet too, so your lack of familiarity with the class is causing you to make some incorrect assumptions.

I know enough... Without a magic mart you're screwed. You won't blast as hard as the wizard, and you rely on a dual ability specialization. No domain access, even though you cast divine spells. No turn undead. I'm sorry, but you would never convince me to play this class over a cleric. You're the jack of all trades with in the way of casting, and you need time skips and money to learn the spells you want. Sure you can cast good spells at low levels, but at what cost?

Thanks for calling me out though, it really detracted from the discussion. Nice job!

[Anthrowhale]

I'm mostly with Grod here with one exception. Your party may be a bunch of solos, but that is an opportunity---if you earn the trust and support of party members then you can lead them into functioning as a team. And starting with the weakest members is probably good for the overall dynamics.

I'd still suggest taking Sacred Exorcist at the next level and purchasing Psychic Reformation as necessary to achieve achieve DMM[Persist] because there are some very powerful choices available. DMM[persist] Mass Lesser Vigor can be a game changer. DMM[Persist] Darkfire makes you a great archer especially with a metamagic rod of Maximize spell. DMM[Persist] Consumptive Field is too powerful to use in most circumstances. Elation and Recitation are good general party buffs.

Without persistent spell, one good choice is Obscuring Snow + Snowsight which functions something like a party-wide improved invisibility all day.

[ArchBook]

When you say "any spell" do you mean you have every divine spell in your prayerbook or you can cast ANY spell, divine or otherwise through some sort of shenanigans?

I have every divine and arcane (changed into divine) spell in my prayerbook. Our DM has no problem with this.

Thanks everyone for the replies. I've been thinking about taking Sacred Exorcist but wasn't sure about it until now.

About the teamwork, I tried to do something, a coordinated attack or to combine spell effects with the wizard or druid but they both say the're fine with their solo play (even if the wizard is at most of the time at the brink of death).
The fighter is more into the role-playing aspekt of the game, fighting is for him boring. He just want's to end the encounter as quick as possible so that we can move on and start a dialogue.
So to conclude everything, I'm left with the swashbuckler.

Don't understand me wrong. I appreciate your advices but I also see how others are playing and how the DM is handling supportive gameplay and to be honest I would have a hard time earning xp.

Even if I try to use something to help the party it's either they do the opposite thing, or the druid has already finished every enemy.

[TheFurith]

First I think the DM needs to up the difficulty a bit if one guy is beating everything by himself. Especially if the wizard is managing to survive in the front line while only blasting. I think that would be of a great help because it would actually make you assume some sort of role, because it sounds like you're not even needed. If you were needed you'd know your role. The Archivist, especially if you're going to be able to have any spell you want, can literally fill any role. But if there isn't a role that needs filling you're just a guy with a book.

As far as what to do if/until that happens. Your choice really comes down to whether you feel like competing with the others to see who can kill the most. If you do, then pick up all the best blasting spells/metamagics and go nuts. Orb spells and Hellfire work well for reliability. Concecrate the Hellfire if the evil descrition will be an issue. If not, then I'd prep as many spells for compeletly random problem solving as I could. To get around whatever out of combat issues the party might have.

You could be the Batman Archivist?

Take some Craft Basketweaving and weave all through combat?

How about you cast Lessar Planar Ally and convince whatever you get that it would enjoy having tea and watching fights with you. Then drink tea with your new extraplanar buddy while doing probably as much as you're doing now in combat. You probably wouldn't even have to pay it. But if you did, weave some baskets.

Really I'm just grasping at straws. There is no role to fill if the game isn't a challenge and one person is already doing everything. If I were you I'd everything start blasting everything, or focus more on playing a character, than a role. After I tried to talk the DM into amping up the difficulty. What I wouldn't do is anything involving DMM.

[ArchBook]

What I wouldn't do is anything involving DMM.

Why wouldn't you?

[TheFurith]

Why wouldn't you?

It's not that it's a bad feat. It is "optimal". But it's going to have every person at the table roll their eyes and think "This again?". It's been done, overdone, and then done again. You end up no longer playing a character or class and end up playing a feat. You persist the same crap the last guy did, and the guy before. It's all very samey.

Regardless of any of that though. Even taking a bunch of buffs and making them essentially permanent isn't going to give you a role in the party unless a role needs filling. And one doesn't. Adding something that easily exploited is likely to compound the problem. Not help.

[Shadowquad]

I appreciate your advices but I also see how others are playing and how the DM is handling supportive gameplay and to be honest I would have a hard time earning xp.

This in particular raised my attention. How is your DM handling XP repartition ? Is it a kind of killer-earns-all-xp thing ? If so, you might want to ask the druid player to tone down, or I seriously pity the Fighter and Swashbuckler players.

I would not recommend starting an arms race with your fellow Tier 1 casters either, for the same reason.

As for your initial question, if your prayerbook is indeed filled with EVERY arcane and divine spell, you're basically a tier 0 character. You can play any role you want and be the best at it. Your party seem to lack out-of-combat utility, you may want to specialize in divination, sneaking and being the party face.

[ArchBook]

Is it a kind of killer-earns-all-xp thing ?

It was so at the beginning, now it's more "those who do more dmg become more xp." when it comes to battle

The fighter is okay with this because he's getting his xp from roleplay. Tried to play as a character but I'm not that good at it.

[Hackulator]

I know enough... Without a magic mart you're screwed. You won't blast as hard as the wizard, and you rely on a dual ability specialization. No domain access, even though you cast divine spells. No turn undead. I'm sorry, but you would never convince me to play this class over a cleric. You're the jack of all trades with in the way of casting, and you need time skips and money to learn the spells you want. Sure you can cast good spells at low levels, but at what cost?

Thanks for calling me out though, it really detracted from the discussion. Nice job!

Ok First of all, I wasn't "calling you out" you were the one who said you weren't familiar with the class in your own post, I wasn't intending that post to be offensive.

Second of all you can be fine on an archivist without much Wisdom.

Third he said in the OP he has access to all spells.

Fourth his spell learning works pretty much EXACTLY like a wizard, and you can eventually learn ANY domain spell.

Fifth Dark knowledge is a great ability.


I have every divine and arcane (changed into divine) spell in my prayerbook. Our DM has no problem with this.

Thanks everyone for the replies. I've been thinking about taking Sacred Exorcist but wasn't sure about it until now.

About the teamwork, I tried to do something, a coordinated attack or to combine spell effects with the wizard or druid but they both say the're fine with their solo play (even if the wizard is at most of the time at the brink of death).
The fighter is more into the role-playing aspekt of the game, fighting is for him boring. He just want's to end the encounter as quick as possible so that we can move on and start a dialogue.
So to conclude everything, I'm left with the swashbuckler.

Don't understand me wrong. I appreciate your advices but I also see how others are playing and how the DM is handling supportive gameplay and to be honest I would have a hard time earning xp.

Even if I try to use something to help the party it's either they do the opposite thing, or the druid has already finished every enemy.

I mean, if you have access to EVERY spell....do whatever the **** you want? You have every spell...the number of powerful possibilities available to you is nigh infinite, I don't fully understand the problem.

[ArchBook]

I don't fully understand the problem.

The problem is my lack of enough creativity that would allow me to be useful.

[Gildedragon]

The problem is my lack of enough creativity that would allow me to be useful.

Couple things:
A: talk to the DM about the challenge imbalance
B: figure out a role you want your character to play... And work towards that. It will also make suggestions easier for us
C: so not buffer, why not focus on debuffing enemies? Or skill use (ie a robed rogue)

[Shadowquad]

And if I may:
D: Talk to the DM about the xp repartition system.

It seems quite unhealthy to me, and may be the reason why the other players are so focused on being solo. You don't want to play with other people if they might "steal your xp".

[Hackulator]

What are your feats? How is xp working in this game?

[Eldariel]

Summon stuff and buff em. Read Summoning handbook on how-to. Cast save-or-dies. CC. Do whatever.

[Quertus]

It was so at the beginning, now it's more "those who do more dmg become more xp." when it comes to battle

The fighter is okay with this because he's getting his xp from roleplay. Tried to play as a character but I'm not that good at it.


And if I may:
D: Talk to the DM about the xp repartition system.

It seems quite unhealthy to me, and may be the reason why the other players are so focused on being solo. You don't want to play with other people if they might "steal your xp".

Yeah, this XP system sounds like it discourages teamwork, including healing, buffing, and debuffing. Not a fan.

Persist some summons, with persisted haste and other buffs on them.

Animate an army of the undead.

Then, in battle, spam Save or Lose - or, better yet, No Save Just Lose spells.

[Anthrowhale]

The XP system is the root of the problem w.r.t. teamwork. It doesn't sound like a very fun game to me.

Heartache is a level 1 will-save-or-get-killed spell. You could be cliche and carry a scythe for the CdG, but really any weapon will do.

Rigor Mortis is a level 2 fort-save-or-get-killed spell.

Shivering Touch is a level 3 no-save-just-lose spell if used with a lesser rod of maximize. Remember: you can hold the charge on touch spells.

Wall of Sand is a level 4 no-save-just-die spell in confined spaces for weak opponents. And, even for strong opponents, it's a significant battlefield control spell.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Heartache is a level 1 will-save-or-get-killed spell. You could be cliche and carry a scythe for the CdG, but really any weapon will do.

It only lasts one round, though, and is mind affecting. Color Spray basically does the same thing, but lasts longer. It is from the Wizard/Sorcerer's spell list, while Heartache is a Cleric spell.


Rigor Mortis is a level 2 fort-save-or-get-killed spell.

It's also a touch spell. :smallyuk:


Shivering Touch is a level 3 no-save-just-lose spell if used with a lesser rod of maximize. Remember: you can hold the charge on touch spells.

By a strictly RAW reading, you can use it multiple rounds and the paralysis lasts for days.


Wall of Sand is a level 4 no-save-just-die spell in confined spaces for weak opponents. And, even for strong opponents, it's a significant battlefield control spell.

Neat. I'll have to remember that one.

[Anthrowhale]

It only lasts one round, though, and is mind affecting. Color Spray basically does the same thing, but lasts longer. It is from the Wizard/Sorcerer's spell list, while Heartache is a Cleric spell.

All true. Color Spray is for taking out riff-raff because it is HD capped. Heartache is more surgical as it gives one of the best conditions---helpless. It's for taking out the captain of the guard for example. One round is plenty long for a CdG so it's a real killer.

[ColorBlindNinja]

All true. Color Spray is for taking out riff-raff because it is HD capped. Heartache is more surgical as it gives one of the best conditions---helpless. It's for taking out the captain of the guard for example. One round is plenty long for a CdG so it's a real killer.

It's a good spell to be sure; especially for a single enemy. Color Spray is better for multiple foes.

[ArchBook]

Thank you everyone for your replies, they were realy helpfull.
I'll try the summon then spam save or lose route


What are your feats? How is xp working in this game?

I will talk with the DM about the xp repartition (looks like it needs a solid rework)

As for the feats. We've decided to choose them at every second level, so my human archivist has:
Academic Priest
Improved Initiative
Extend Spell
Draconic Archivist
Archivist of Nature

I'm going to replace the Archivist feats (hoped for more dragon, giant encounters but there were almost none). Instead I'll take the Maximize and Persistent feats.

[Aurosman]

I'm going to replace the Archivist feats (hoped for more dragon, giant encounters but there were almost none). Instead I'll take the Maximize and Persistent feats.

I would personally stay away from the persist feat at your level right now. A +6 modifier is too much without DMM. Try to get a persist metamagic rod instead. And besides, you would need to get extend spell feat before you can get persist.

If you are going sacred exorrsist just get maximize and DMM for it. That should help you contribute more in fights, if you want to be a damage dealer. (Depending on the spell the enlarge spell feat might be better, get both for 1.5 max dice damage)

If you do want to buff people, the reach spell feat is really helpful since alot of the good buff spells are personal or touch, and touch spells I believe can't be extended or persisted.

[Hackulator]

I think your best bets are augment summoning and summons, since you can cast every summon spell in the game. Then buff your minions and sit back. Synergizes well with your Dark Knowledge.