Bardic help

[Ketiara]

Hi all

I have a friend playing a bard, and he has tried the valor bard before with a bow in high lvl with much satisfaction.

Now we are in a Norse setting, and he feel like trying the Lore bard, the way he wants to play is moving around with a shield throwing cantrips and higher spells when necessary. But also be able to be in melee.. He likes to be a knowledge skill monkey and we need one (we are two rogues also, but they are sorta committed to other skills than arcana, religion etc).

we started at lvl 1 and we are currently lvl 4 closing in on lvl5... Our DM will allow for changes in our build, if it suits us better. We are not planning on stopping at a certain level, but if we go into high lvl (12+) it will probably take years since we play once every 3 month.

anyways...

So I've been fiddling around with diffrent setups:
Sorcerer may be a way to multi class in order to get some blasty cantrip spells asap, but then he looses the lightarmor proff...
Paladin would get him plate and shield! but what does he loose in spell capacity?
Feat... what feat would grant him shield prof? and is it truly worth it?
Is the bard trying to much?

Or would a wizard be the better choice for this guy?

[coolAlias]

If he wants to use a shield and armor and be in melee... that sounds more like a Valor Bard or at least a 1-2 level dip in Fighter.

If you want heavy armor, starting Fighter is the way to go, and then you can be a Lore Bard with no qualms. May want to go Fighter 5 for extra attack if you feel like melee is going to be your thing.

Or consider Eldritch Knight.

Also keep in mind that you don't technically need proficiency in every skill across the party - it can be helpful, sure, but not having arcana / religion probably won't be that terrible in most games.

[nickl_2000]

Hi all

I have a friend playing a bard, and he has tried the valor bard before with a bow in high lvl with much satisfaction.

Now we are in a Norse setting, and he feel like trying the Lore bard, the way he wants to play is moving around with a shield throwing cantrips and higher spells when necessary. But also be able to be in melee.. He likes to be a knowledge skill monkey and we need one (we are two rogues also, but they are sorta committed to other skills than arcana, religion etc).

we started at lvl 1 and we are currently lvl 4 closing in on lvl5... Our DM will allow for changes in our build, if it suits us better. We are not planning on stopping at a certain level, but if we go into high lvl (12+) it will probably take years since we play once every 3 month.

anyways...

So I've been fiddling around with diffrent setups:
Sorcerer may be a way to multi class in order to get some blasty cantrip spells asap, but then he looses the lightarmor proff...
Paladin would get him plate and shield! but what does he loose in spell capacity?
Feat... what feat would grant him shield prof? and is it truly worth it?
Is the bard trying to much?

Or would a wizard be the better choice for this guy?

Moderately Armored would be the feat you are asking about, but it isn't the most efficient. He would be better off dipping a level in cleric to get healing spells, guidance, sacred flame, spare the dying, and at least medium armor and shields (heavy armor for some cleric domains). Also, it would keep his spell progression going. Knowledge Cleric Domain would give him more skill profs, Life would boost his heals and give him Heavy armor. Either of those seem like they would fit into your party and his idea of the character extremely well.

As for feats, there is no question in my mind he needs War Caster as soon as possible. Warcaster would let him use cantrips as AoOs and would also let him keep a weapon in his hand so he is threatening opponents close to him and gives flanking if you use that rule. Also it helps keep concentration, which is always important if you are in the thick of things.

[Ketiara]

Moderately Armored would be the feat you are asking about, but it isn't the most efficient. He would be better off dipping a level in cleric to get healing spells, guidance, sacred flame, spare the dying, and at least medium armor and shields (heavy armor for some cleric domains). Also, it would keep his spell progression going. Knowledge Cleric Domain would give him more skill profs, Life would boost his heals and give him Heavy armor. Either of those seem like they would fit into your party and his idea of the character extremely well.

As for feats, there is no question in my mind he needs War Caster as soon as possible. Warcaster would let him use cantrips as AoOs and would also let him keep a weapon in his hand so he is threatening opponents close to him and gives flanking if you use that rule. Also it helps keep concentration, which is always important if you are in the thick of things.

wow, of course! he has 30 points instead of 27, that makes it easier to multi class with cleric... but how would you allocate the ability points and how many levels of cleric? I'm hoping that 1 would suffice, but I have a hard time figuring out whats best.

And then finally I havn't quite understood the spell progression when multi classing... any help for a dummy?

[coolAlias]

wow, of course! he has 30 points instead of 27, that makes it easier to multi class with cleric... but how would you allocate the ability points and how many levels of cleric? I'm hoping that 1 would suffice, but I have a hard time figuring out whats best.

And then finally I havn't quite understood the spell progression when multi classing... any help for a dummy?
If you are some combination of all full caster classes such as Bard/Cleric, use your total levels in those classes to determine your spell slots per day.

Spells known, prepared, etc. are keyed off the individual class's levels, so if you are Bard 4 / Cleric 1, you can cast spells as a 4th level Bard and a 1st level Cleric, but you have 3rd level spell slots (with no 3rd level spells to use them on) that you can use for your lower level spells.

[Innocent_bystan]

Do you have access to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide?
If so, take a look at the Arcana Cleric. Medium armor and shield proficiency. 3 Cleric cantrips, 2 Wizard cantrips (Booming blade and Greenflame blade come to mind), at least 2 prepared lvl 1 cleric spells and always have magic missile and detect magic prepared.
It's what I did on my lore bard and I haven't regretted it for a second.

[Ketiara]

Do you have access to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide?
If so, take a look at the Arcana Cleric. Medium armor and shield proficiency. 3 Cleric cantrips, 2 Wizard cantrips (Booming blade and Greenflame blade come to mind), at least 2 prepared lvl 1 cleric spells and always have magic missile and detect magic prepared.
It's what I did on my lore bard and I haven't regretted it for a second.

we are not limited to core, so this may be a possibility, how did your lvl progression go, and what spells did you pick when? my main problem is normally to figure out when I can pick spells as new lvl and when I replace spells, and also, can I replace cleric spells as I level up as a bard?

personally Ive never played these chars, so Im just kinda getting to know the rules for my friends, that really havnt got the time and energy to really get in depth with the construction of the game

[nickl_2000]

wow, of course! he has 30 points instead of 27, that makes it easier to multi class with cleric... but how would you allocate the ability points and how many levels of cleric? I'm hoping that 1 would suffice, but I have a hard time figuring out whats best.

And then finally I havn't quite understood the spell progression when multi classing... any help for a dummy?

First, Bard and Cleric are both full casters, so the spell slots available will be the regular progression (take this from either Bard of Cleric). The spells known will follow the rules for each class. So, let's take a level 3 Bard/ Level 2 Cleric. Slots: 2 3rd, 3 2nd, and 4 1st level spell slots. You will know 6 bard spells that can be cast in those slots and wisdom + 2 for cleric spells known. I believe I have this right, but the PhB has this all in 164.


Cleric Requires 13 in Wisdom to multiclass. So you need to get there, I wouldn't go much higher unless he wants to use Sacred Flame a lot. He only really needs 1 level to get his armor and shields.

If I were playing a variant human with Warcaster as my feat I would use something like this for stats
Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 13+1
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 15+1

Then you take knowledge cleric for the bonus skill Profs and go crazy

[Innocent_bystan]

My bard is currently at level 9.

Some aspects of my character were decided by the DM, most notably my race and background: I had to be an elf sage

Initial stats:
Race: Wood Elf (Dex +2, Wis +1)
Str 8 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 13 Cha 15
ASI: +1 Con & +1 Cha @4, +2 Cha @9 (Bard 8 / Cleric 1)
Skills (3 base, 2 from background, Perception from Elf, 3 from Lore bard, Arcana from Arcana Cleric) : Arcana, Deception, History, Insight, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Religion and Stealth. I got my DM to switch proficiency in musical instruments to Thieves' tools.
Expertise in Perception and Stealth.

I'd advise to take the cleric level as soon as possible, the defensive advantage at lower levels is huge.
I took mine at level 4, I wanted my subclass first.

The concept I'm playing is a spy for the church of Corellon Larethian. And a true jack of all trades.
Can hold it's own in melee combat through a decent Dex, Medium Armor, a Shield and the 2 sword cantrips.
Can use Cutting words to create a mini-shield spell or reduce damage of AoE spells.
Has proficiency in 10 skills and magical support. Is a skill monkey at it's best.
Is a decent back-up healer because of Healing Word and Aura of Vitality.
Has a decent range of Buff and Debuff spells, without losing spell slots because of multiclassing.

Can fill almost every party slot. Sucks at dealing huge amounts of damage. Although you could choose Fireball instead of Find Steed as one of your arcane secrets and solve that problem.

Spells known:
lvl1: Vicious Mockery, Prestidigitation, Unseen Servant, Sleep, Healing Word, Disguise Self
lvl2: + Faerie fire
lvl3: + Heat Metal -Sleep + Invisibility
lvl4 (cleric1): Thaumaturgy, Guidance, Mending, Booming Blade, Greenflame Blade
lvl5: +Blindness/Deafness
lvl6: +Fear - Faerie fire + Suggestion
lvl7 (spell secrets): +Hypnotic Pattern +Aura of Vitality +Find Steed
lvl8: +Greater Invisibility
lvl9: +Dimension Door

prepared cleric spells: Magic Missile, Detect Magic, Bless and Protection vs Good/Evil

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Lore Bards get two spells from any class at level 6, right? The E.B. cantrip will keep him from having to count arrows ever again and Counterspell comes in handy. After lvl 6 I might dip in Cleric, maybe, but I wamt my two spells!

[Specter]

If he wants to have a free hand for casting, what he wants is Tavern Brawler. That lets him attack with a shield.

[nickl_2000]

If he wants to have a free hand for casting, what he wants is Tavern Brawler. That lets him attack with a shield.

Question, why would you take Tavern Brawler that lets you grapple and and attack with your shield when your other choice is Warcaster. With Warcaster you can use your spells for AoOs, get Advantage on Concentration checks, and hold a real weapon that does 1d6 + dex (instead of 1d4 + strength). I would understand for a grappling valor bard, but not a lore bard.

[Specter]

Question, why would you take Tavern Brawler that lets you grapple and and attack with your shield when your other choice is Warcaster. With Warcaster you can use your spells for AoOs, get Advantage on Concentration checks, and hold a real weapon that does 1d6 + dex (instead of 1d4 + strength). I would understand for a grappling valor bard, but not a lore bard.

I mean the shield is an improvised weapon. So without Tavern Brawler you can't Captain America effectively. If that's what he wants.

[nickl_2000]

I mean the shield is an improvised weapon. So without Tavern Brawler you can't Captain America effectively. If that's what he wants.

Ahhh you were going for flavor vs optimization. That makes so much more sense :)

[Citan]

Hi all

I have a friend playing a bard, and he has tried the valor bard before with a bow in high lvl with much satisfaction.

Now we are in a Norse setting, and he feel like trying the Lore bard, the way he wants to play is moving around with a shield throwing cantrips and higher spells when necessary. But also be able to be in melee.. He likes to be a knowledge skill monkey and we need one (we are two rogues also, but they are sorta committed to other skills than arcana, religion etc).

we started at lvl 1 and we are currently lvl 4 closing in on lvl5... Our DM will allow for changes in our build, if it suits us better. We are not planning on stopping at a certain level, but if we go into high lvl (12+) it will probably take years since we play once every 3 month.

anyways...

So I've been fiddling around with diffrent setups:
Sorcerer may be a way to multi class in order to get some blasty cantrip spells asap, but then he looses the lightarmor proff...
Paladin would get him plate and shield! but what does he loose in spell capacity?
Feat... what feat would grant him shield prof? and is it truly worth it?
Is the bard trying to much?

Or would a wizard be the better choice for this guy?
The easiest way to grab all of that would be just grabbing both Moderately Armored feat (medium armor, shields) and Magic Initiate: Warlock (Booming Blade, Eldricht Blast): 19 AC (armor and shield), great melee attack, good ranged attack. But you'd also need Warcaster, so overall it would come late (even as Variant Human, you would wait for level 8 overall, unless you spend Magic Secrets on cantrips, but it's a bit of a waste).

SO, since you are allowed to rework your builds, and since WIS is important anyways (especially on someone that is not proficient in it), I'd say...
Get a 14 WIS any way you can and take a single dip in Arcana Cleric: you get everything at once (medium armor, shield, melee cantrips) and more (healing spells, Bless).
And just one level behind in Bard progression is pretty acceptable imo.

Then take Warcaster (because Shield). You can also add insult to injury by grabbing Spell Sniper to get Eldricht Blast with great range, or just Magic Initiate.