Tarrasque-proofing Yourself (Min Max)

[WaggleDagger]

So I noted that the Tarrasque has only melee attacks. This means the big baddie has to roll to hit every time. Can we get our AC high enough to eliminate this threat? Yes we can. Let's see how. (This will not make your character invincible, as saving throw attacks will still get you.)

First off, by the DMG Variant rule on Epic Boons, you can replace an Epic Boon with an Ability Score Improvement, up to a max of 30 (+10 modifier). This is totally legal by RAW.

The Tarrasque's attacks all have +19 to hit, so we need our AC to be a 39. Therefore, Combine +10 DEX and +10 CON with a +3 Shield, and you've got a Barbarian with 35 AC. That's damn close. Throw on a Defender (+3 AC), Cloak of Protection (+1 AC), and a Ring of Protection (+1 AC) and Congrats!, you've successfully gotten enough AC to make yourself immune to everything but a critical Tarrasque hit. Problem: The Tarrasque gets 5 Attacks per turn. Lots of crits can be possible. Let's make ourself crit-proof, shall we? (We don't even need the variant rule anymore.)

Permanent AC Boosts:
Adamantine Armor (Plate) (Negates Critical): 18 AC
+3 Shield (+5): 23 AC
2 lvl Paladin Defense Fighting Style (+1): 24 AC

3 Attunement Magic Items
Ring of Protection (+1): 25 AC
Cloak of Protection (+1): 26 AC
Defender (+3): 29 AC

Buffs
Potion of Speed (Haste effect) (+2): 31 AC
Shield of Faith (+2): 33 AC
Shield Spell (+5): 38 AC
Warding Bond (+1): 39 AC

WAIT WAIT, before you comment, here is how this ridiculous setup actually works. First off, this would be MUCH easier if we could just use +3 plate armor (or the unarmored Barbarian) but we cannot, because we need that tasty adamantine armor to cancel those crits. The shield and fighting style, and attuned items are self explanatory. The reason Warding Bond is used as one of the spells is that Warding Bond is touch range, so you can cast it on yourself by RAW. It also does not require concentration (Thank the gods).

We also need first level spell slots to cast Shield. (You only have to cast it on the first of the Tarrasque's attacks each round. It will last the rest of the Tarrasque's turn.) Pact Magic can get us 2 for free, and the levels in spell casters that we get will net us another 4.

The levels
2 in paladin (Defender Fighting Style, Heavy Armor Proficiency, and Shield Proficiency)
3 in cleric (Warding Bond and Shield of Faith)
1 in wizard (Shield)
2 in warlock (2 free 1st level spell slots)
7 in ranger (Multiattack Defense, (See final paragraph))
Spend the other levels finding all these dang magic items

This gives us 6 turns of complete invulnerability to the Tarrasque because we can put shield up every turn. After this, multiattack defense picks up the slack, only allowing a natural 20 to slip through. (It is still not a crit though)

Thanks for reading!

[Corran]

I can already beat the Tarrasue with acid splash and fly with impunity!

*runs out and far away from this thread*

[WaggleDagger]

Ah! I've just remembered the "meet or beat" rule. We're going to need one more point of AC to make sure the Tarrasque can't even meet our AC. Thankfully I found it in a feat. "Dual Wielder". Simply wack someone with your shield and it has become a improvised weapon. This equips you with a weapon in each hand. (Defender and Shield). Now you get the +1 from the Dual Wielder feat.

[Hypersmith]

I think it needs to count as a weapon for the dual wielder feat to work.

[WaggleDagger]

I think it needs to count as a weapon for the dual wielder feat to work.

You are absolutely correct, this is why we wack something with the shield to turn it into an improvised weapon. Jeremy Crawford tweeted that it is up to the DM whether or not the shield is properly being used as a weapon, so we assume they are in this situation.

[MrWesson22]

A 20 always hits, even if it is turned from a critical into a normal hit by adamantine armor, so that extra point of AC is pointless.

[WaggleDagger]

A 20 always hits, even if it is turned from a critical into a normal hit by adamantine armor, so that extra point of AC is pointless.

I'm afraid I don't understand. One of the qualities of a critical hit is that it hits regardless of AC value. Surely turning this hit from critical to normal removes this quality?

[Hypersmith]

Not that I'm aware of it. I'll still hit, it just won't crit. It's not like adamantine removes the 20, it just turns it into a normal hit.

[Easy_Lee]

Why not just have a moon druid wild-shape to a housefly, fly down its throat, then wild-shape to earth elemental?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Easier way:

Archer fighter with an item that gives him Flight. Out of reach of Big T, he cannot be hit. Eventually, the arrows whittle him down. Make sure you have a magic bow.

[Easy_Lee]

Easier way:

Archer fighter with an item that gives him Flight. Out of reach of Big T, he cannot be hit. Eventually, the arrows whittle him down. Make sure you have a magic bow.

Yeah, but if you use an earth elemental druid down the throat, you've already clogged his throat with mud to prevent regeneration. Just leave the druid there and have the player reroll.

[Vaz]

Wizard 7, Phantom Steed, Magic Weapon

Need Longbow Proficiency. Possibly Sharp Shooter. Lots of Arrows.

Or be True Polymorphed into an Androsphinx. You are imune to nonMagical attacls and deal magic damage in return.

[vexedart]

Tarrasque proof you say? Gain access to flight.

[Decstarr]

I don't see the use of this at all since first of all this doesn't help you killing it, it requires significantly more effort than just using fly and spiking it from the distance and it doesn't eliminate a critical problem: A 20 always hits, even if the critical damage is removed by adamantine armor, it will still remain a hit. This means that your super tanky character could still be grappled and swallowed with some reasonable percentage.

Addtionally, the Tarrasque isn't really intimidating by any means, if your PC made it to level 30 (and likely has a group of other 30s to back him up), he probably wouldn't even mind being hit by it since the encounter wouldn't be tough anyways considering the amount of items and resources the group has access to (that's assuming not just 1 PC is giving this insane amount of magical items and buffs, but all of the group have decent items). Not factoring in items and going by pure CR, it would be a medium encounter for 4 lvl 30 PCs, if they have access to powerful items AND know what the Tarrasque can do, it pretty much becomes a walk in the park.

But kudos for the effort you put in to make this work! :-)

[MaxDPSsays]

Higher AC going wizard, even without blade song. Just get 30 dex with robes of the archmagi. Base AC is 25. MC 2 paladin/18 wizard to get shields and the fighting style.
25 base AC
5 AC from a +3 shield
+1 AC from def fighting (AFB - does it need to be a certain armor type?)
+3 defender gives another 3 AC
Shield of Faith for +2 AC
Cast shield spell every round all day for +5 AC
That's 41 AC (40 without the fighting style)

I know there are ways to get even higher (blade song among them) but this leaves you with one more attunement item. Plus you have access to heal yourself/fly etc

[Lombra]

The tarrasque really needs a Godzilla-like atomic beam to deal with ranged enemies. Or maybe I just want Godzilla to be an official monster, I don't know. With the epic boons rule you actually can get an "effortless" 40 AC through a bladesingin barbarian or bladesinging monk.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Higher AC going wizard, even without blade song. Just get 30 dex with robes of the archmagi. Base AC is 25. MC 2 paladin/18 wizard to get shields and the fighting style.
25 base AC
5 AC from a +3 shield
+1 AC from def fighting (AFB - does it need to be a certain armor type?)
+3 defender gives another 3 AC
Shield of Faith for +2 AC
Cast shield spell every round all day for +5 AC
That's 41 AC (40 without the fighting style)

I know there are ways to get even higher (blade song among them) but this leaves you with one more attunement item. Plus you have access to heal yourself/fly etc

Stats are hard-capped at 20. There is no getting a Dex of 30 in 5e. Period.

Besides, a Wizard has no need of AC. He has Fly. He is automatically immune to the Tarrasque by virtue of being out of melee reach.

[Lombra]

Stats are hard-capped at 20. There is no getting a Dex of 30 in 5e. Period.

Besides, a Wizard has no need of AC. He has Fly. He is automatically immune to the Tarrasque by virtue of being out of melee reach.

Did you read the second paragraph of the OP? Wait, did you read the OP?

[Hypersmith]

Stats are hard-capped at 20. There is no getting a Dex of 30 in 5e. Period.

Besides, a Wizard has no need of AC. He has Fly. He is automatically immune to the Tarrasque by virtue of being out of melee reach.


Lol it's like everyone decided to ignore the OP. The best counter argument I've seen is that you'll get grappled to death anyway because a 20 still hits.

If U ever run a Terry fight, screw being only melee it'll have a godzilla beam and hurl barbs off its fingers that knock you prone.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Did you read the second paragraph of the OP? Wait, did you read the OP?

I did. The goal is to be immune to Big T. The solution is Flight. The Tarrasque has no ranged attacks. Fly FTW. All the other dubious stacking is irrelevant. You are now immune to the Tarrasque. Congratulations, have a cookie. AC is irrelevant if the opponent cannot actually attack you.

[Lombra]

I did. The goal is to be immune to Big T. The solution is Flight. The Tarrasque has no ranged attacks. Fly FTW. All the other dubious stacking is irrelevant. You are now immune to the Tarrasque. Congratulations, have a cookie. AC is irrelevant if the opponent cannot actually attack you.

No, the goal is clearly to be able to stand in front of it without dying. "Fly away and cheese" is clearly not an option in this argument, otherwise he wouldn't have talked about melee attacks and AC, don't you think?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No, the goal is clearly to be able to stand in front of it without dying. "Fly away and cheese" is clearly not an option in this argument, otherwise he wouldn't have talked about melee attacks and AC, don't you think?

He was also talking about optimization, so no, I don't think so.

You can spend all that effort and resources on making a character with a high AC but otherwise worthless, which the Tarrasque will likely completely ignore anyway, or you can Fly. The choice is not really that difficult.

If he wanted to say 'immune to physical attacks', that would be a horse of a different color, and using the Tarrasque as an example would make sense as it has some impressive attack figures. However, that's not the discussion we are having. Or if it is, then the OP needs to clearly spell it out as such. And it also doesn't protect him from grapples, or a myriad of other ways of getting hurt. And it also doesn't cover how he intends to do anything other than stand there and fart in the enemies' general direction.

Topic: Tarrasque-proofing Yourself. Solution: Fly. If you want to have a discussion on a different topic, then say so.

[WaggleDagger]

I appreciate all the talk about whizzing about the Tarrasque's head, pecking at the poor boy with nasty magic arrows. A good show for certain!

However the goal here is to stand unmoving and untouchable by even the CR 30 Tarrasque. Though he may not be as difficult as other monsters, it is still impressive.

As pointed out by other posters, there are certainly ways to get higher AC, and I'd like to throw in another way.

Evasive Footwork (Battlemaster) and Combat Inspiration (College of Valor).
Level up high enough into fighter, and have a hidden/invisible Bard backing you up, and you could conceivably add 2d12 to your AC every turn. That get up to 24 AC all by itself! However, due to the unreliable nature of these strategies, they should be avoided when fighting a bigger, scarier monster.

Also, the official stats of the "Dragon Masks" from the Rise of Tiamat campaign allow a player to add their Charisma modifier to AC, allowing for even higher heights when stacked with Bladesinger and Unarmored Defense!

Unfortunately for us, the DM I was playing with was under the assumption that Adamantine Armor cancelled out the extra damage of a critical and also the "never miss" property. This is incorrect by RAW. The "never miss" is a property of rolling a 20, not a critical. Really puts a crimp in our plan, doesn't it? Shucks!

I suppose that goes to show that DnD 5e is quite well designed in the end. The devs knew people would stack AC items to gods-know-where, and so they put in a 5% never-miss countermeasure. Ah well. Even the mightiest tank can fail at times.

[Hypersmith]

And a 5% always miss. If your AC is 10 and Terry rolls a 1 he still misses.

[Lombra]

He was also talking about optimization, so no, I don't think so.

You can spend all that effort and resources on making a character with a high AC but otherwise worthless, which the Tarrasque will likely completely ignore anyway, or you can Fly. The choice is not really that difficult.

If he wanted to say 'immune to physical attacks', that would be a horse of a different color, and using the Tarrasque as an example would make sense as it has some impressive attack figures. However, that's not the discussion we are having. Or if it is, then the OP needs to clearly spell it out as such. And it also doesn't protect him from grapples, or a myriad of other ways of getting hurt. And it also doesn't cover how he intends to do anything other than stand there and fart in the enemies' general direction.

Topic: Tarrasque-proofing Yourself. Solution: Fly. If you want to have a discussion on a different topic, then say so.

Say what you want at this point. You have not been useful, I on the other hand proposed something different and useful to the argument. Argue that your opinion is not wrong all you want, but think if it actually contributed to the thread in some way.

He even stated that you can get past 20 in stats through epic boons, yet you refuse to accept the framework around which thos thread is basing itself.

I'm sorry if I sound rude but coming up and saying "just fly" is just pointless, unintreasting and useless (speaking to everyone that did it, not particularly to you only)

Even this post is not useful to the thread, the main thing that I wanted to point out is that you saying that abilities cap at 20 is not relevant because the OP specifically states that they cap at 30 through DMG variant rules.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I appreciate all the talk about whizzing about the Tarrasque's head, pecking at the poor boy with nasty magic arrows. A good show for certain!

However the goal here is to stand unmoving and untouchable by even the CR 30 Tarrasque. Though he may not be as difficult as other monsters, it is still impressive.

As pointed out by other posters, there are certainly ways to get higher AC, and I'd like to throw in another way.

Evasive Footwork (Battlemaster) and Combat Inspiration (College of Valor).
Level up high enough into fighter, and have a hidden/invisible Bard backing you up, and you could conceivably add 2d12 to your AC every turn. That get up to 24 AC all by itself! However, due to the unreliable nature of these strategies, they should be avoided when fighting a bigger, scarier monster.

Also, the official stats of the "Dragon Masks" from the Rise of Tiamat campaign allow a player to add their Charisma modifier to AC, allowing for even higher heights when stacked with Bladesinger and Unarmored Defense!

Unfortunately for us, the DM I was playing with was under the assumption that Adamantine Armor cancelled out the extra damage of a critical and also the "never miss" property. This is incorrect by RAW. The "never miss" is a property of rolling a 20, not a critical. Really puts a crimp in our plan, doesn't it? Shucks!

I suppose that goes to show that DnD 5e is quite well designed in the end. The devs knew people would stack AC items to gods-know-where, and so they put in a 5% never-miss countermeasure. Ah well. Even the mightiest tank can fail at times.

Your other problem is that you have no defense if the Tarrasque decides to Grapple you then Swallow. Since it is easily more than one size category larger than you, it automatically succeeds on the grapple check, then uses a Legendary Action to Swallow. No save, AC is meaningless, you are now taking 15d6 Acid damage per turn and are effectively out of combat.

The only savings grace here is that it will only take a few rounds to digest you, which is marginally more merciful than being slowly digested over a thousand years...

[WaggleDagger]

Your other problem is that you have no defense if the Tarrasque decides to Grapple you then Swallow. Since it is easily more than one size category larger than you, it automatically succeeds on the grapple check, then uses a Legendary Action to Swallow. No save, AC is meaningless, you are now taking 15d6 Acid damage per turn and are effectively out of combat.

The only savings grace here is that it will only take a few rounds to digest you, which is marginally more merciful than being slowly digested over a thousand years...

I see your logic, but this is fortunately not true! Our intrepid tank would still be safe. The Tarrasque can definitely grapple our guy, no problem, but here is the Tarrasque's "Swallow" Action: The Tarrasque makes one bite Attack against a Large or smaller creature it is Grappling. If the Attack hits, the target takes the bite's damage, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends...

As you can see, the Tarrasque must make an attack, and must hit in order to swallow our boy. He can only hit with a natural 20, leaving our tank a good chance of escape! (Assuming he spec'd some points into strength!)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I see your logic, but this is fortunately not true! Our intrepid tank would still be safe. The Tarrasque can definitely grapple our guy, no problem, but here is the Tarrasque's "Swallow" Action: The Tarrasque makes one bite Attack against a Large or smaller creature it is Grappling. If the Attack hits, the target takes the bite's damage, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends...This is quite true. However...


As you can see, the Tarrasque must make an attack, and must hit in order to swallow our boy. He can only hit with a natural 20, leaving our tank a good chance of escape! (Assuming he spec'd some points into strength!)

Perhaps you did not understand the 'automatically succeeds at a grapple check' part? Our tank has literally zero chance of escaping the grapple. Eventually a Natural 20 will come up. Struggling will only prolong your torment.

[WaggleDagger]

Perhaps you did not understand the 'automatically succeeds at a grapple check' part? Our tank has literally zero chance of escaping the grapple. Eventually a Natural 20 will come up. Struggling will only prolong your torment.

You may very well be correct! This would be disappointing for sure. However, where are you reading that a size category larger creature automatically succeeds on a grapple check? I cannot find that rule anywhere. Reading in the 5e PHB, a grapple is not even a check, it is a contest.

And if it is a contest, assuming our min-maxed hero has 30 strength, the contest would be a 50-50 correct? Please correct me with a page number for the ruling you speak of if possible.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You may very well be correct! This would be disappointing for sure. However, where are you reading that a size category larger creature automatically succeeds on a grapple check? I cannot find that rule anywhere. Reading in the 5e PHB, a grapple is not even a check, it is a contest.

And if it is a contest, assuming our min-maxed hero has 30 strength, the contest would be a 50-50 correct? Please correct me with a page number for the ruling you speak of if possible.Hmmm... it seems like it was referring to an inability to grapple a larger creature, they automatically succeed at escaping grapples. Some wording confusion there that got clarified in the Eratta. However, you've got some issues...

First off, there is a hard cap on stats at 20. Our min-maxed hero has a Strength of 20. You cannot go higher than this number. For the number to which you can go is 20. Period. All other means of stat boosting have a cap of 20. Which means he only has a +5 strength bonus. Big T has a +10, which gives him a sizable bonus.

Second off, Big T can push you Prone. Meaning you now have Disadvantage. Now, you can take the Grappler feat to mitigate that, but that involves spending a feat on this. This is assuming you pass the Will save on the Frightning Presence, of course.

Third off, the clock is ticking. Shield only lasts one round, and you only have a few spell slots. After four or five rounds, you run out of spell slots, and that buff goes away. Not long after that, your Potion of Haste wears off. Warding Bond requires a willing creature within 60' of you... which could easily be sniped to deprive you of that. Shield of Faith is a Concentration spell. And your AC drops down to 29. If you take more than five rounds to get out of the grapple, you're pretty much sunk.

[PloxBox]

Hmmm... it seems like it was referring to an inability to grapple a larger creature, they automatically succeed at escaping grapples. Some wording confusion there that got clarified in the Eratta. However, you've got some issues...

First off, there is a hard cap on stats at 20. Our min-maxed hero has a Strength of 20. You cannot go higher than this number. For the number to which you can go is 20. Period. All other means of stat boosting have a cap of 20. Which means he only has a +5 strength bonus. Big T has a +10, which gives him a sizable bonus.

Second off, Big T can push you Prone. Meaning you now have Disadvantage. Now, you can take the Grappler feat to mitigate that, but that involves spending a feat on this. This is assuming you pass the Will save on the Frightning Presence, of course.

Third off, the clock is ticking. Shield only lasts one round, and you only have a few spell slots. After four or five rounds, you run out of spell slots, and that buff goes away. Not long after that, your Potion of Haste wears off. Warding Bond requires a willing creature within 60' of you... which could easily be sniped to deprive you of that. Shield of Faith is a Concentration spell. And your AC drops down to 29. If you take more than five rounds to get out of the grapple, you're pretty much sunk.

OP mentioned earlier that EPIC BOONS can instead be used to increase stats by 2, to a max of 30. I'm afb right now, so I can't verify if thats true or not though.

[Hypersmith]

First off, there is a hard cap on stats at 20. Our min-maxed hero has a Strength of 20. You cannot go higher than this number. For the number to which you can go is 20. Period. All other means of stat boosting have a cap of 20. Which means he only has a +5 strength bonus.

??????? I don't understand you dude. OP established that he's willing to go to a hard cap of 30 based on a rule variant. If you're so stuck up about it being straight 20, try some place else. I'm sure there have been plenty of threads about killing Terry through fly.



Period.


I don't get why you can't debate on terms besides your own? You're just coming off as a ****.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

??????? I don't understand you dude. OP established that he's willing to go to a hard cap of 30 based on a rule variant. If you're so stuck up about it being straight 20, try some place else. I'm sure there have been plenty of threads about killing Terry through fly.



I don't get why you can't debate on terms besides your own? You're just coming off as a ****.

You are familiar with what an Epic Boon is, right? If you are going to assume you get TEN of them, then why not just assume you have an at-will 'immunity to you' ability? It's about as realistic.

[Hypersmith]

You are familiar with what an Epic Boon is, right? If you are going to assume you get TEN of them, then why not just assume you have an at-will 'immunity to you' ability? It's about as realistic.


As realistic as a being allowed to cheese Terry to death with a cantrip and fly I suppose
._.
If you applied realism to every fun speculation thread they wouldn't get anywhere

[WaggleDagger]

First off, there is a hard cap on stats at 20. Our min-maxed hero has a Strength of 20. You cannot go higher than this number. For the number to which you can go is 20. Period. All other means of stat boosting have a cap of 20. Which means he only has a +5 strength bonus. Big T has a +10, which gives him a sizable bonus.

You are absolutely correct, there are many issues here. Invincibility to non-saving roll attacks using AC is hard to keep up for over ~5 turns. However, this "hard cap" you speak of is simply not true. If you read the original post, you can find the variant ruling on epic boons, allowing stats to raise to 30. It is detailed in a small "Alternatives to Epic Boons" box in the DMG (Dungeon Master's Guide) on page 230, in Chapter 7. There are also magic items that increase the cap on these numbers, found in pages 135-213. They are the Manuals of _____, and increase an ability score by 2, as well as an ability score maximum by 2. Please be sure to do all your research before posting next time.

Also, I love your advice, the Grappler feat is the perfect thing to put on top of this build to try to keep the Tarrasque from pinning you down. Of course, now we are moving beyond the intent of the post (melee attack invincibility) but any other tips to survive are welcome!

[MaxDPSsays]

Also, with my wizard idea you could cast blur instead of shield of faith to give it disadvantage on attack rolls. Lowers AC to 39 but I think that gives it a 1 in 400 chance to hit you? If you get swallowed I guess you could just dimension door out. I chose the wizard bc it was fitting the OP of having a high AC, but also bc it does have the fly/acid splash cheese option too.

[WaggleDagger]

Also, with my wizard idea you could cast blur instead of shield of faith to give it disadvantage on attack rolls. Lowers AC to 39 but I think that gives it a 1 in 400 chance to hit you? If you get swallowed I guess you could just dimension door out. I chose the wizard bc it was fitting the OP of having a high AC, but also bc it does have the fly/acid splash cheese option too.

I didn't even think to give the Tarrasque disadvantage! This is a great method. Also gives a great option to hop out of that nasty acid belly. Good show!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You are absolutely correct, there are many issues here. Invincibility to non-saving roll attacks using AC is hard to keep up for over ~5 turns. However, this "hard cap" you speak of is simply not true. If you read the original post, you can find the variant ruling on epic boons, allowing stats to raise to 30. It is detailed in a small "Alternatives to Epic Boons" box in the DMG (Dungeon Master's Guide) on page 230, in Chapter 7. There are also magic items that increase the cap on these numbers, found in pages 135-213. They are the Manuals of _____, and increase an ability score by 2, as well as an ability score maximum by 2. Please be sure to do all your research before posting next time.Did you even read what Epic Boons are, and how to obtain them? No character is going to amass five of them. You have unrealistic expectations walking into it.


Also, I love your advice, the Grappler feat is the perfect thing to put on top of this build to try to keep the Tarrasque from pinning you down. Of course, now we are moving beyond the intent of the post (melee attack invincibility) but any other tips to survive are welcome!

Armor of Invulnerability. Since the Tarrasque doesn't indicate his natural weapons are considered to be magic, you are immune to him for ten minutes. At this point, the build doesn't matter. Go HAM with Barb20 or Fighter20 or whatever you like that does damage.

[MaxDPSsays]

Epic Boons aren't even needed. You can just find/create and use manuals to get to 30. Thing is, I've only seen one drop for our group since we started playing when 5th edition came out. The armor of invulnerabity would certainly work for its attacks, but not the acid in the stomach I don't think?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Epic Boons aren't even needed. You can just find/create and use manuals to get to 30. Thing is, I've only seen one drop for our group since we started playing when 5th edition came out. The armor of invulnerabity would certainly work for its attacks, but not the acid in the stomach I don't think?

You would need to end up in its stomach first, which would be hard to do if you are immune to the bite attack required to swallow in the first place. Using the Grappler feat would help keep you out of that situation in the first place.

Honestly, the Tarrasque isn't even a challenge in this edition. It doesn't have epic DR, it doesn't have Regeneration, you don't need to Wish it dead... the only thing it really punishes are warlocks, with a 5 in 6 chance of doing nothing and a 1 in 6 chance of eating your own EB. Heck, Cloud of Daggers should be sufficient to put the poor boy down.

[MaxDPSsays]

I totally agree. This version shouldn't be anywhere near the CR30 they gave it. Even if it were to attack a stronghold, which it was built for back in 2ed if I remember right, it may have to flee before finishing the job. Call to arms a bunch of archers and townsfolk with rocks/spears whatever and eventually enough crits will be earned to really hurt it.

I don't mind the wish being removed to actually kill it, but to remove its regeneration is what truly nerfed it.

It's just not a real threat to a party unless it comes out of no where and somehow catches the group off guard. Stealthy tarasque ftw?

It could be neat as a story hook though. Perhaps tracking it down, witnessing the aftermath of its destruction through several small towns. Then when you find it, it's made a lair in the side of a mountain making flight less of an option and forcing the party to think of other ways to deal with it.

I think overall, the kraken or some other creature would be a better test for a character to solo/take down.

[MaxDPSsays]

Oh, and taking no damage won't stop you from getting swallowed. Pretty sure it's just getting hit at all that can do it. Could be wrong though. At work and no book in front of me.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I totally agree. This version shouldn't be anywhere near the CR30 they gave it. Even if it were to attack a stronghold, which it was built for back in 2ed if I remember right, it may have to flee before finishing the job. Call to arms a bunch of archers and townsfolk with rocks/spears whatever and eventually enough crits will be earned to really hurt it. Not really. It is immune to non-magical damage. So you'd need an awful lot of Magic Arrow spells to keep them going. Against anything without access to the kind of pocketbook a level 20 adventurer has, it is pretty serious business. But any adventurer over around level 12 should be able to handle it quite readily.


I don't mind the wish being removed to actually kill it, but to remove its regeneration is what truly nerfed it.

It's just not a real threat to a party unless it comes out of no where and somehow catches the group off guard. Stealthy tarasque ftw?

It could be neat as a story hook though. Perhaps tracking it down, witnessing the aftermath of its destruction through several small towns. Then when you find it, it's made a lair in the side of a mountain making flight less of an option and forcing the party to think of other ways to deal with it.Earthquake. Bury the Tarrasque under the mountain. Let it sleep for another thousand years, and let it be someone else's problem.


I think overall, the kraken or some other creature would be a better test for a character to solo/take down.

Kraken got nerfed too. Heck, most of the iconic legendary monsters did. You need to do homebrew to get any kind of decent opponents these days.

[No brains]

Clay golems would work great against the tarrasque. If one gets swallowed, the tarrasque is gonna have a really bad tummy ache as the acid heals the golem. The golem will have a hard time dealing 60 damage in one turn (if you use average damage, this only becomes possible on a rare haste triple-crit), so that tummy ache is gonna last.

[MaxDPSsays]

My bad. Forgot it was immune to none magic weapons. So yea, strongholds would be toast.

Guess it's time to stat up the Demi-gods!

[Vaz]

No, the goal is clearly to be able to stand in front of it without dying. "Fly away and cheese" is clearly not an option in this argument, otherwise he wouldn't have talked about melee attacks and AC, don't you think?

Cheese is having access to a collection of spells available 23 levels earlier than its CR suggests?

[Coidzor]

No, the goal is clearly to be able to stand in front of it without dying. "Fly away and cheese" is clearly not an option in this argument, otherwise he wouldn't have talked about melee attacks and AC, don't you think?

It's hardly cheese if it's been the accepted solution to the Tarrasque since long before most D&D players were born.

[FreddyNoNose]

If the players meta-game to overcome the monster, the DM is required to change the monster to make it a challenge to them.

[MaxWilson]

You can MOSTLY Tarrasque-proof yourself quite easily, with no multiclass shenanighans required, as long as you are a 17th+ level bard or wizard, or an unscrupulous 11th+ level wizard. Just True Polymorph yourself up a werebear (or capture one, at 11th level) and Magic Jar into him. Shazam! You're now immune to almost all of the Tarrasque's attacks because they are neither magical nor silver.

The only one you still need to worry about is being swallowed, which inflicts acid damage on you every round. It requires two actions from the Tarrasque to do so, or an action plus a legendary action, so if you fight the Tarrasque solo, you simply have to make sure to each of your turns NOT in the Tarrasque's jaws--if you do this, the Tarrasque will never be able to Swallow you with a legendary action, and you'll be safe. You can either use Misty Step (possibly via Spell Mastery), or you can Wish yourself up some Freedom of Movement (4th level cleric/druid/ranger/bard spell) plus maybe a Longstrider for good measure.

Voila! you are now Tarrasque-proof. Edit: oh, or you can just shapeshift into your hybrid form (Large) and cast Enlarge on yourself (Large -> Huge), which makes the Tarrasque unable to swallow you for as long as Enlarge lasts.

Alternate, budget version for clerics/bards/druids: cast Regenerate on yourself and let the Tarrasque swallow you. You'll take a bunch of acid damage every round, but Regenerate will keep you from dying (you return to 1 HP at the start of each of your turns, and can then act normally except for being blinded and restrained) for as long as it lasts. You should have plenty of time to kill the Tarrasque from the inside.

[Vaz]

If the players meta-game to overcome the monster, the DM is required to change the monster to make it a challenge to them.

This is why there are Intelligence checks in game.

MaxWilson, why Werebear? Why not Androsphinx? You're now totally immune. And you have Legendary Actions. And you have extra 6th level spells and spell slots.

[MaxWilson]

This is why there are Intelligence checks in game.

MaxWilson, why Werebear? Why not Androsphinx? You're now totally immune. And you have Legendary Actions. And you have extra 6th level spells and spell slots.

The chief problem with Androsphinx is that you can't Magic Jar one, since it's not a humanoid. A smaller but still significant problem is that a given DM may or may not allow you to retain the ability to make somatic gestures in Androsphinx form, since you have no hands. A tertiary problem is that you can't create an Androsphinx as easily as a werebear, since True Polymorph can only create creatures up to CR 9 from objects--if you want an Androsphinx, you need to find a CR 17+ creature like a Red Dragon from which to create it.

Also, the Androsphinx isn't totally immune to the Tarrasque. Both it and the Werebear are equivalently immune: immune to weapon attacks but not to acid. In both cases you still need to do something to prevent or mitigate getting swallowed.

[Vaz]

It can only swallow something it's Grappling. It cannot maintain grapple, because Legendary Action Teleport or Freedom of Movement. Also, Somatic Components can be fulfilled by your Androsphinx limbs - only certain creatures can cast spells without Somatic components, such as the Couatl, Naga or Flameskull, or those using Subtle Spell or Psionics.

Since you're a 17th level character, you can cast it on yourself.


If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level if the target doesn't have a challenge rating).

[MaxWilson]

It can only swallow something it's Grappling. It cannot maintain grapple, because Legendary Action Teleport or Freedom of Movement... Since you're a 17th level character, you can cast it on yourself.

(1) You don't get legendary actions when you shapechange. See:


Legendary Creatures (p. 11). This section has been tightened
up to include the following new rules:
• The opening has a new second paragraph: “If a creature
assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a
spell, it doesn’t gain that form’s legendary actions, lair actions,
or regional effects.”

(2) Freedom of Movement isn't intrinsic to being an Androsphinx--werebear form can also become immune to swallow through any combination of Misty Step, Freedom of Movement, or Enlarge, as discussed previously. Of these, Enlarge is the most reliable because it doesn't rely on exploiting the oddities in the Legendary Action system, which means that werebear form has the best counter to the Tarrasque's Swallow. (I.e. it doesn't fall apart if something causes the Tarrasque to get a legendary action between its turn and your turn.)


Also, Somatic Components can be fulfilled by your Androsphinx limbs - only certain creatures can cast spells without Somatic components, such as the Couatl, Naga or Flameskull, or those using Subtle Spell or Psionics.

"Look, DM, the Androsphinx has a spellcasting list, but it doesn't say it can cast without Somatic components! That must mean has claws as nimble as hands, which means that I could cast my spells if I shapeshift into one!" I dunno how many DMs that would work on. Some. Not all. Not me--my response would be, "No, it means that it uses different somatic components for the spells on its list which even have somatic components."

Besides, the real difference between Androsphinx and Werebear is, as I've pointed out multiple times now, that one of them works with Magic Jar and the other does not. Androsphinx is all right if you want to blow a 9th level slot and your concentration on becoming temporarily Tarrasque-proof; but I thought the whole point of the thread was to become Tarrasque-proof on a permanent basis. Magic Jarring into a Werebear will do that, as long as you have a contingency plan to protect against Swallow, such as keeping Enlarge prepared or on Contingency.

There. Does that answer your question about "Why not an Androsphinx?" TL;DR Permanent werebear form is better than temporary Shapeshift into Androsphinx form at the cost of concentration and your 9th level spell slot for the day.

P.S. If it tickles your fancy you can always be a permanent Werebear archmage temporarily shapeshifted into Androsphinx form for the fun of it.

[Vaz]

1. Noone is shapechanging.

2. Yes, Freedom of Movement is intrinsic.

3. Why does an Androsphinx have Spellcasting requiring Somatic Components if they can't cast spells?

4. True Polymorph is permanent.

It isn't Too long, I did read, and you're just wrong, apart from the fact that a Werebear is available from Level 13.

[MaxWilson]

1. Noone is shapechanging.

Are you or are you not planning on True Polymorphing into an Androsphinx?

If so, you don't get the legendary actions.


2. Yes, Freedom of Movement is intrinsic.

3. Why does an Androsphinx have Spellcasting requiring Somatic Components if they can't cast spells?

4. True Polymorph is permanent.

It isn't Too long, I did read, and you're just wrong, apart from the fact that a Werebear is available from Level 13.

Oh, so your plan is to permanently turn into an Androsphinx? That works okay, I guess, but I'd much rather be a werebear 20th level archmage than an androsphinx 12th level cleric.

There's no "wrong" when it comes to preferences. You asked "why not Androsphinx?" and I'm telling you, it's because I like 9th level wizard spells and humanoid form more than 6th level cleric spells and no wizard spells and no legendary actions and monstrous form.


MaxWilson, why Werebear? Why not Androsphinx? You're now totally immune. And you have Legendary Actions. And you have extra 6th level spells and spell slots.

Androsphinx is no more "totally immune than Werebear is", you don't get Legendary Actions, and you lose a whole bunch of 7th-9th level spell slots and wizard spells in order to gain the crummy cleric ones you get from Androsphinx. That's why not.

[Vaz]

Are you or are you not planning on True Polymorphing into an Androsphinx?

If so, you don't get the legendary actions.
But you said Shapechange, not True Polymorph. TP doesn't stop you getting them.


Oh, so your plan is to permanently turn into an Androsphinx? That works okay, I guess, but I'd much rather be a werebear 20th level archmage than an androsphinx 12th level cleric.


There's no "wrong" when it comes to preferences. You asked "why not Androsphinx?" and I'm telling you, it's because I like 9th level wizard spells and humanoid form more than 6th level cleric spells and no wizard spells and no legendary actions and monstrous form.
You don't lose your own class abilities. Otherwise, abilities like Wild Shape would cease to function.


Androsphinx is no more "totally immune than Werebear is", you don't get Legendary Actions, and you lose a whole bunch of 7th-9th level spell slots and wizard spells in order to gain the crummy cleric ones you get from Androsphinx. That's why not.
Erm, no. These are your houserules. You keep your own spellcasting, and you get Legendary Actions.

[Sir cryosin]

Why not just have a moon druid wild-shape to a housefly, fly down its throat, then wild-shape to earth elemental?

You wouldn't be able to do anything?

[MaxWilson]

But you said Shapechange, not True Polymorph. TP doesn't stop you getting them. *snip* Erm, no. These are your houserules. You keep your own spellcasting, and you get Legendary Actions.

I said "shapechange", not "Shapechange." It was a generic term, and includes any method of changing your form, including True Polymorph. Let me quote the MM once again:


Legendary Creatures

A legendary creature can do things that ordinary creatures can't. It can take special actions outside its turn, and it might exert magical influence for miles around.

If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn’t gain that form’s legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects.

When you True Polymorph yourself into an Androsphinx, you don't get Legendary Actions, full stop. It's not a house rule.


You don't lose your own class abilities. Otherwise, abilities like Wild Shape would cease to function.

Wild Shape has a special clause: "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so." You're not Wild Shaping, you are True Polymorphing, so this clause does not apply to you.

[Vaz]

1. Okay. Still seems a strange choice of word to use when we're discussing a spell that isn't Shapechange for you to suddenly use shapechange rather than polymorph. It even states that Shapechangers aren't effected.

2. That's not in my MM. I have both an OCR'd version and a hard copy which are exactly the same, and are not on that page you reference. Can you post a picture, please?

http://i.imgur.com/mpq0D97.png

3. Yes, precisely. You lose Wild Shape when you choose a creature that is not otherwise physically capable of Wild Shaping. I.e, all of them.

[MaxWilson]

1. Okay. Still seems a strange choice of word to use when we're discussing a spell that isn't Shapechange for you to suddenly use shapechange rather than polymorph.

At that point you hadn't said which spell you were planning to use. Instead of "True Polymorph/Shapechange/whatever" I chose to just write "shapechange."


It even states that Shapechangers aren't effected.

That's a different kind of "shapechange."


2. That's not in my MM. I have both an OCR'd version and a hard copy which are exactly the same, and are not on that page you reference. Can you post a picture, please?

You have an old copy of the MM. Check out the errata: https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/MM_Errata.pdf


Legendary Creatures (p. 11). This section has been tightened
up to include the following new rules:
• The opening has a new second paragraph: “If a creature
assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a
spell, it doesn’t gain that form’s legendary actions, lair actions,
or regional effects.”

I quoted this for you previously in post #53 but maybe I should have bolded the relevant passage for you too. It's easy to miss things on a forum.


3. Yes, precisely. You lose Wild Shape when you choose a creature that is not otherwise physically capable of Wild Shaping. I.e, all of them.

Wild shape isn't a physical capability. It's magical. In any case, True Polymorph doesn't have that clause, so you don't get to keep those abilities.

In any case, you have your answer now and I'm tired of explaining the same thing over and over. I'm done here. If you don't like Magic Jar, don't use it. I don't care.

[Vogonjeltz]

The tarrasque really needs a Godzilla-like atomic beam to deal with ranged enemies. Or maybe I just want Godzilla to be an official monster, I don't know. With the epic boons rule you actually can get an "effortless" 40 AC through a bladesingin barbarian or bladesinging monk.

I mean, I like the idea of a Godzilla monster, but wouldn't blue dragons be 90% of the way there with lightning breath?

[Vaz]

At that point you hadn't said which spell you were planning to use. Instead of "True Polymorph/Shapechange/whatever" I chose to just write "shapechange."

That's a different kind of "shapechange."
Really? I beg to differ.


You have an old copy of the MM. Check out the errata: https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/MM_Errata.pdf
Thanks.

[quote]I quoted this for you previously in post #53 but maybe I should have bolded the relevant passage for you too. It's easy to miss things on a forum.
I asked for a picture, because I had a hard copy and PDF copy which stated differently. It's really easy to miss the ****ing obvious too, because you're too up yourself to read what others are actually asking. See above.


Wild shape isn't a physical capability. It's magical. In any case, True Polymorph doesn't have that clause, so you don't get to keep those abilities.
Just because it's magic doesn't mean it's not physical. It's certainly not a mental ability, so it must be physical. A magical sword is still physical. True Polymorph doesn't state that you lose them either. So you keep them.


In any case, you have your answer now and I'm tired of explaining the same thing over and over. I'm done here. If you don't like Magic Jar, don't use it. I don't care.
Nobody said I didn't like Magic Jar. You were just flat out asserting things that were wrong, and it took you like 5 posts to even post to the FAQ. You explained sweet FA, you stated the same thing over and over. There's a difference.

I'll concede the Legendary Actions, because, you know, the rules changed to stop you using Legendary Actions, which you otherwise had. But that doesn't stop you casting Freedom of Movement to avoid the grapple.

[Coidzor]

Interesting argument. Especially since when I got into 5e, the boards were dominated by discussions about how True Polymorphing into a dragon permanently made you level 20 wizard lose all of his wizardly abilities and replaced them with the dragon ones.


If the players meta-game to overcome the monster, the DM is required to change the monster to make it a challenge to them.

Metagaming isn't even necessary, if you want to pretend we're in a world where all DMs have missed the point of the Tarrasque of being something that looks scary and is if you don't use your brain and try to meet brute force with brute force.

Any character with at least 12 Int should be able to look at the Tarrasque and think of flying and staying out of its reach, especially if they have any kind of flight capability.

[furby076]

Whats wrong with Adamantine Plate +3? Is that not RAW?

[Coidzor]

Whats wrong with Adamantine Plate +3? Is that not RAW?

+3 Armor and Adamantine Armor are separate items, basically. So it'd most likely need to be a custom item because there doesn't seem to be any conception of modular magic item properties or incrementally increasing the potency of a weapon or armor over time save through fiat.