Question: spell mastery and signature spell [Archive]

Dalebert

2017-06-30, 10:52 AM

Coinky dinky. I was just think about this as my illusionist is once again seeing some action in tier 3.

I've seen Shield get argued up and down and any other choice being poo-pooed away as a poor choice. I'm not sure I can argue that it's not the most optimal choice. That said, I'm not sure optimal is always the best choice if your goal is more fun. I just played an entire tier 3 game with my wizard and managed to avoid getting attacked even once so no use for Shield the entire game. I know I can't rely on that but still, how many of them do I need? I can't recall a game when I even had to resort to a higher level slot for Shield.

I think Shield and Misty Step are appealing for their action economy. Having unlimited spells that take an action to use when you'll only get limited actions during combat in the entire game and you have a LOT of slots at that point doesn't seem that big a deal.

For my illusionist (who already has something better than Shield 1/rest), I've considered:

Silent Image: one action plus a bonus action to create ANYTHING I need in one round, including an adamantine box around an enemy or two. (But keeping a couple permanent Major Images around might alleviate the need in most cases. Same for Phantasmal Force.)

Mirror Image: Just keep it up during stressful situations, e.g. just about to turn a corner or open a door in a dungeon crawl. Will reduce the need for Shield. Isn't concentration. Not as useful once you're already in combat because takes an action.

Phantasmal Force: Broader application than Silent Image but with the same perk for creating real objects as needed. But... 1d6/turn dmg is cheesy. It's main use is for crowd control which Silent Image fulfills and is just 1st level.

Longstrider: With Mirror Image almost always up for combats, don't need Shield much. Everyone in the party can be faster all the time.

Unseen Servant: An army can get a LOT done better than just one. "Pick up all the ball bearings/caltrops." DONE! Tell each one to follow closely a particular party member. When one of them drops, there's always an US nearby who can administer one of their healing potions to them. When you're in a tight situation with low HP and expecting trouble and have a bonus action free, go ahead and tell one that's not too close to administer a potion to you. It will start traveling to you and if you're down by the next round, it automatically does so and you're back up. Some DMs will let it administer even if you're up and you'll get a little healing. Have some carry Continual Flamed objects ahead of the party to light the way without lighting up the party.

UberN3wb

2017-07-01, 12:55 AM

Shatter: Because you like to break stuff even more than the fighter.
Suggestion: Lend some... authority to your words.
Hold Person: RP as Darth Vader?
Misty Step: Just too fun to pass up.

AttilatheYeon

2017-07-01, 01:09 AM

1st Disguise Self, combined with Friends catrip and now the whole town is mad at that prissy paladin in your group for no other reason then you felt like being a **** and were bored 😁

2nd Misty Step, combine with Lightning Leash (and Disguise Self) and now your Scorpion from Mortal Kombat 😇 And you know it can be used to do a ton of damage when combined with a cliff.

Elminster298

2017-07-01, 01:47 AM

My "default setting" for these would definitely be: shield, misty step, counterspell, dispel magic. That is what I would choose on any day that I didn't have specific information about possible encounters. Specific enounters, I think everyone else has already mentioned pretty much most of the other fantastic choices.

Dalebert

2017-07-01, 12:22 PM

These definitely seem archetype specific. Like, my illusionist would take Disguise Self because he gets already has a similar effect with Seeming, only better and lasting 8 hours for just a 5th level slot. An abjurer would definitely want abjuration spells for instance. I could see them going with the standard Shield but their second could perhaps be Arcane Lock. That would give them a way to recharge their shield that doesn't depend on being attacked. It just depends on there being a door or container around. Plus, it would be kind of handy to just Arcane Lock all the doors as you find them and just use a password that your entire party knows so they won't be impeded but any enemies would be.

Sir cryosin

2017-07-01, 12:40 PM

SharkForce

2017-07-01, 01:06 PM

My favorite when I was playing my fighter 2/ wizard 18 I had shield and scorching ray. I had a staff of power so each ray was doing doing 2d6+3x3 campaired to a firebolt 4d10+3 which is slightly better than firebolt. And the cool thing is you can always change it on a rest.

staff of power doesn't boost damage from spells. just attack rolls. still nice. but doesn't boost damage in any way.

anyways, i don't think i'd go with dispel magic for a signature spell. counterspell, sure, you're always going to want that just in case, and it shouldn't be hard to find uses for it, but not dispel magic. the second spell i think would be very archetype-specific a lot of the time... for a necromancer, animate dead is nice, for example. in any event, there are plenty of good options... fireball, hypnotic pattern, fly, stinking cloud, nondetection, i could even consider phantom steed (to replace a mount lost in the middle of a fight).

for spell mastery, i think having just 2 kinda defeats the purpose of being a wizard. you have a large spell list full of spells that can be used in a variety of situations, and your class is strongest when you adapt to the situation at hand. to limit yourself to just 2 seems excessively restrictive... you should change it based on your current needs.

Dalebert

2017-07-01, 05:17 PM

New related question:

If you make a simulacrum, you could pick two different signature spells and then change them afterward. What two would you have and what two would you put in your simulacrum?

Sage Tellah

2017-07-01, 06:58 PM

sir_argo

2017-07-01, 10:46 PM

It's UA, and cheese of the highest order, but a Theurge can choose Cure Wounds or Prayer of Healing for spell mastery, allowing them to heal everyone forever. Never short rest to spend hit dice, never long rest to regain them!

Hmmmm... I have my doubts on this one. Spell Mastery says, "Choose a 1st-level wizard spell..." Now, if it said, "Choose a 1st-level spell you can cast..." I'd feel differently.

Even though a Theurge gets to pick spells from the cleric list, those are still cleric spells. It even says, "Other wizards cannot copy cleric spells from your spellbook into their own spellbooks," which reiterates that it isn't a wizard spell.

But I'll admit that this is the first I've heard of this, so maybe I'm missing something.

PhantomSoul

2017-07-01, 11:58 PM

Hmmmm... I have my doubts on this one. Spell Mastery says, "Choose a 1st-level wizard spell..." Now, if it said, "Choose a 1st-level spell you can cast..." I'd feel differently.

Even though a Theurge gets to pick spells from the cleric list, those are still cleric spells. It even says, "Other wizards cannot copy cleric spells from your spellbook into their own spellbooks," which reiterates that it isn't a wizard spell.

But I'll admit that this is the first I've heard of this, so maybe I'm missing something.

It could only be cast as a first-level spell (so the best bet might be to arrange to get Healing Word to heal at a distance and as a bonus action), but based on the line "Any cleric spell you gain from this feature is considered a wizard spell for you" and it saying "a wizard spell" not a "spell from the Wizard spell list", I'd say it does qualify.

sir_argo

2017-07-02, 01:31 AM

It could only be cast as a first-level spell (so the best bet might be to arrange to get Healing Word to heal at a distance and as a bonus action), but based on the line "Any cleric spell you gain from this feature is considered a wizard spell for you" and it saying "a wizard spell" not a "spell from the Wizard spell list", I'd say it does qualify.

Well, I was reading the 2016 Theurgist (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA%20Non-Divine%20Faithful%20SFG.pdf), not the 2017 version (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/MJ320UAWizardVF2017.pdf). So based on the revised language, it would count as a wizard spell. I think the revision botched it.

Sir cryosin

2017-07-02, 08:38 AM

staff of power doesn't boost damage from spells. just attack rolls. still nice. but doesn't boost damage in any way.

anyways, i don't think i'd go with dispel magic for a signature spell. counterspell, sure, you're always going to want that just in case, and it shouldn't be hard to find uses for it, but not dispel magic. the second spell i think would be very archetype-specific a lot of the time... for a necromancer, animate dead is nice, for example. in any event, there are plenty of good options... fireball, hypnotic pattern, fly, stinking cloud, nondetection, i could even consider phantom steed (to replace a mount lost in the middle of a fight).

for spell mastery, i think having just 2 kinda defeats the purpose of being a wizard. you have a large spell list full of spells that can be used in a variety of situations, and your class is strongest when you adapt to the situation at hand. to limit yourself to just 2 seems excessively restrictive... you should change it based on your current needs.

I'm afd but I do believe it's gives you +2 to AC and saves, and then calls out for +2 to att and damage with spells as well. But then again I'm AFB but a wand of warmage does get you +3 to attand damage tho.

Naanomi

2017-07-02, 09:29 AM

Well, I was reading the 2016 Theurgist (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA%20Non-Divine%20Faithful%20SFG.pdf), not the 2017 version (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/MJ320UAWizardVF2017.pdf). So based on the revised language, it would count as a wizard spell. I think the revision botched it.
It made it fit the language of all similar Spell-granting abilities from other classes

SharkForce

2017-07-02, 07:41 PM

I'm afd but I do believe it's gives you +2 to AC and saves, and then calls out for +2 to att and damage with spells as well. But then again I'm AFB but a wand of warmage does get you +3 to attand damage tho.

from http://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/magic-items/rods-staves-wands/

"While holding [the staff of power], you gain a +2 bonus to Armor Class, saving throws, and spell attack rolls."

it is also a regular +2 quarterstaff, but that only applies to weapon attacks, because spell attacks are not made with the staff.

"While holding [a wand of the warmage], you gain a bonus to spell attack rolls determined by the wand’s rarity."

neither gives a bonus to spell damage, only attack. in fact, i don't think there's any items that increase spell damage.

Whit

2017-07-03, 01:30 PM

Elminster298

2017-07-04, 01:43 AM

Signature spell.
1. They don't count vs prepared spells but vs spell slot
However, you can only cast tge spells at 3rd lvl. Example
Counter spell: you can counter 3rd lvl or lower. If it's 4th or higher spell it's D.C. 10+ lvl of spell. You cannot do the at higher lvl section auto counter if you cast counter spell at same spell lvl as the spell. You use counterspell at 9th lvl to counter wish
Same with dispel magic.
They are both good just remember that. And it's only once per shirt or long rest

Other options are Blink no concentration and non detection only because it lasts 8 hrs
As for Spell Mastery
You must have the spell memorized(prepared). Then you can cast it at will at the lowest lvl so damage spells is a no no to pick
Good ones are alter self, blur both do require concentration but last a decent time. Or Mirror image no concentration and misty step a bonus action very good short teleport.
Expeditions retreat and shield Both can be cast and grant either quick run due a duration or bonus to armor Disguise self is good also if Alter self not taken

For signature spell counterspell and dispel magic are great because they are ALWAYS prepared. Yes, you can only cast them each once per short or long rest of you cast them at 3rd level, but you can absolutely cast them at higher levels just by spending the requisite spell slot. And third level counterspell will still counter the two most used attack spells in all of D&D...fireball and lightning bolt. And most are not going to waste a higher slot for either of those since there are better options.

Foxhound438

2017-07-04, 02:07 AM

the mobility and utility of misty step is actually just too good to pass up on

But, besides that, Tasha's Hideous Laugter is probably better to spam than a 4d10 cantrip, and for 3rd level stuff I'd probably take something like haste+fear. One for crowds, one for single targets.

Citan

2017-07-04, 04:07 AM

Aside from: shield, misty step, fireball and counterspell.

What spells would you like to use for these features?
If it's easier pretend you have an additional slot for these class features
Hi! ;)

Well, I'd say basically any spell that provides some control or buff.
So, for an Abjurer or Bladesinger that just wants to tank, I like Shield + Mirror Image (keeps concentration free for any other spell) or Warding Wind. Unless you want to be pro-active and cast Thunderwave instead. ;)

A Bladesinger with great DEX saves, that is a tad masochist, could also use Absorb Elements on a close-range Fireball to improve his next weapon cantrip. Probably not the MOST efficient, but you make for a fun character (probably Evil though -or do you think a "Good" character could go the self-inflicting wounds path for the sake of a greater good?)

For an Evoker with melee allies, Earth Tremor is one of the best ways to contribute to a fight with many creatures. Pair with whatever (I'd say Flaming Sphere or Dust Devil for the bonus action, but Aganazz's Scorcher or Shatter would work too).
Otherwise, the top 1st level for him is by far Magic Missile. Just a tad lower damage than other ranged Wizard's cantrips, but consistant and reliable. Very few creatures will be able to resist or avoid. What else? :)

For any Wizard...
- Fog Cloud becomes a prime tool of visibility control, you can just drop concentration and recast it elsewhere as needed. Absolutely dandy paired with a Shadow Monk. :) You can of course do the same with Darkness but it's overkill imo unless enemy has darkvision (and potentially problematic for party).
- Flaming Sphere gives a good damage for bonus action.
- Misty Step is a great escape tool.
- Warding Wind is a great defense tool (allows you even to be unaffected by Fog Cloud, Stinking Cloud or the likes).
- Phantasmal Force is absolutely deadly with a reasonable DM (and player XD) and creativity.
- Suggestion, same as Phantasmal Force, except appliable in a wider (imo) array of situations.
- Shatter, because it's a decent free AOE and also can break objects IIRC.
- For social encounters, Disguise Self + Detect Thoughts or Suggestion is a great combo. ;)
- For sneaking, Silent Image to distract and Invisiblity to ease the hiding (or Spider Climb to enter through unguarded ways).

For niche situations, Gust of Wind could make a case for himself: if you like to synchronize with an AOE pal or push people into traps for example. While it's underwhelming at a cost, when free-cast there is no culpability for trying to get creative on soft control. :)
Same could be said for Earthbind, if you know that during the day you'll fight many flyers and your party is short on long-range attacks.
Or Pyrotechnics: if you have any friend that can cast a persisting fire (like Bonfire), this can make a great reusable control combo (potentially better than just casting Fog Cloud since it's non-concentration).

As for Signature spells, I'd say it depends much on School and build.
I love Haste or Slow for a Bladesinger built for melee. How could an Evoker be one without a Fireball or Lightning Bolt?
Counterspell and Glyph of Warding should be the spells of choice for an Abjurer. Etc.
For "any Wizard", I find Slow, Fear, Counterspell, Fireball, Bestow Curse, Fly, Leomund's Tiny Hut to be "always good" choices. :)

Dalebert

2017-07-04, 09:19 AM

Tasha's Hideous Laugter is probably better to spam than a 4d10 cantrip...

I question the notion of "spamming" anything that's concentration. You can only ever affect one target at a time. Rarely would you want to be repeatedly casting a single-target concentration crowd control spell.

- Flaming Sphere gives a good damage for bonus action.

Mmm... not really, not at tier 4. 2d6 with a save for half? If it were also a bonus action to cast, then sure, but most battles don't last long and that action you spend casting it is going to rarely be justified for the low bonus action dmg. At those levels, you'll often want to use your concentration for something stronger. You have plenty of high level slots to use for concentration effects.

- Phantasmal Force is absolutely deadly with a reasonable DM (and player XD) and creativity.

Again, I have to question a 1d6/round dmg being "absolutely deadly" at tier 4. Once again using your concentration for a weak dmg spell. This is good crowd control for low int creatures so maybe worth a prepared slot but tough to argue as worth a precious spell mastery slot compared to fast-cast and/or non-concentration effects.

- Shatter, because it's a decent free AOE and also can break objects IIRC.

It's a barely acceptable AOE at tier 1 and maybe tier 2 only because you either don't have Fireball yet or you're a bard and it's the only AOE you get without blowing a MS. You probably have a cantrip that does comparable dmg to objects.

- For sneaking, Silent Image to distract and Invisiblity to ease the hiding (or Spider Climb to enter through unguarded ways).

I could only see Silent Image justifying itself if you're an illusionist who can make real objects with it, but even then you often have a couple permanent Major Images following you around for that. One nice thing about Invisibility is the duration. You could put it on the rogue to scout ahead or you could just stay invisible and be invisible at the start of every fight without blowing your first action. Still leery because it's eating up that one concentration slot.

Or Pyrotechnics: if you have any friend that can cast a persisting fire (like Bonfire), this can make a great reusable control combo (potentially better than just casting Fog Cloud since it's non-concentration).

Hadn't considered it. It does have some flexibility and it's not concentration. I would definitely not want to rely on someone else blowing their action and concentration to make fire with magic though for such a relatively weak effect for a tier 4. That said, if you have a contingent of skeletons (and why wouldn't an arch mage have them?) you can just give them torches. Use your bonus action to position one near an enemy and use this to blind them. It's versatile since you can effectively get a Fog Cloud effect too but arguably still kind of weak. It's just one round of blindness vs. Blindness/Deafness that doesn't rely on fire and positioning.

Re: Leomund's Tiny Hut as a signature spell:
Leomund's Tiny Hut takes a minute to cast. You would blow your signature spell on that? If you have a minute, you prolly have 10 to cast it as a ritual without using up your signature spell slot.

Citan

2017-07-04, 11:54 AM

I question the notion of "spamming" anything that's concentration. You can only ever affect one target at a time. Rarely would you want to be repeatedly casting a single-target concentration crowd control spell.

Mmm... not really, not at tier 4. 2d6 with a save for half? If it were also a bonus action to cast, then sure, but most battles don't last long and that action you spend casting it is going to rarely be justified for the low bonus action dmg. At those levels, you'll often want to use your concentration for something stronger. You have plenty of high level slots to use for concentration effects.

Again, I have to question a 1d6/round dmg being "absolutely deadly" at tier 4. Once again using your concentration for a weak dmg spell. This is good crowd control for low int creatures so maybe worth a prepared slot but tough to argue as worth a precious spell mastery slot compared to fast-cast and/or non-concentration effects.

It's a barely acceptable AOE at tier 1 and maybe tier 2 only because you either don't have Fireball yet or you're a bard and it's the only AOE you get without blowing a MS. You probably have a cantrip that does comparable dmg to objects.

I could only see Silent Image justifying itself if you're an illusionist who can make real objects with it, but even then you often have a couple permanent Major Images following you around for that. One nice thing about Invisibility is the duration. You could put it on the rogue to scout ahead or you could just stay invisible and be invisible at the start of every fight without blowing your first action. Still leery because it's eating up that one concentration slot.

Hadn't considered it. It does have some flexibility and it's not concentration. I would definitely not want to rely on someone else blowing their action and concentration to make fire with magic though for such a relatively weak effect for a tier 4. That said, if you have a contingent of skeletons (and why wouldn't an arch mage have them?) you can just give them torches. Use your bonus action to position one near an enemy and use this to blind them. It's versatile since you can effectively get a Fog Cloud effect too but arguably still kind of weak. It's just one round of blindness vs. Blindness/Deafness that doesn't rely on fire and positioning.

Re: Leomund's Tiny Hut as a signature spell:
Leomund's Tiny Hut takes a minute to cast. You would blow your signature spell on that? If you have a minute, you prolly have 10 to cast it as a ritual without using up your signature spell slot.
1. Flaming Sphere
True, for quick encounters it's not the best choice, but for encounters lasting 5 rounds or more? As a Wizard, what other uses would you have for your bonus action? Apart from Misty Step (which you shouldn't have to use so much as a ranged caster) I really don't see any. Agreed that there are plenty higher spells to use concentration on though, but having a small movable AOE is still worth imo for an Evoker or melee Bladesinger for example.

2. Phantasmal Force
Ok, now I see your problem: you mesure everything by damage alone. Well, indeed the Phantasmal Force damage is bad. Good thing is, it's absolutely not the reason why anyone would use it: it's for the strong distraction / cover it can provide. Because since the affected creature rationalizes everything around, and it doesn't break because other people deal damage to it. And not many creatures have strong Intelligence saves. That's why it's good. Damage is basically irrelevant.

3. Shatter
"You problably have a cantrip that does comparable damage to objects". Well then, please say the name. Because as strange as may be, it seems only when it's duly specified in description that a spell or ability can damage objects.
Also, you forget that Shatter as a 2nd spell is free to cast: so 3d8 in a 10 foot radius should be pretty comparable to Ranger's Volley: 3d8 average to 13,5 per target, when a longbow would average to 9,5 per target.
PER TARGET is the important thing here.
Is it worse than a plan cantrip? Yes, certainly, if you have only one or two targets close-by. But for an Evoker, with melee allies, it's a good way to deal damage without friendly fire (AOE) nor cover problem (since not an attack), with more flexibility than an Acid Splash or Poison Spray.
The only true problem is that it targets Constitution saves which is fairly common. :)
But I don't see any other 2nd level spell that would be an AOE dealing damage, please correct me if I missed one.
Of course, for other Schools, there are better candidates for the usual 2nd level free spell. Good thing though, you can change anyways. So it's not like you couldn't fit the spell to each and every day, even if you have to pick spells from another School to do so.

4. Silent Image
Good catch about Major Image, didn't realize you could upcast it to get over maximum duration and concentration. So indeed, since you can change spells between days, probably not many situations where Silent Image would be better...
If you put aside the fact that "having Major Images following you around" with image and sound is... Well, not sneaky at all. And the shape changes are limited once cast. Whereas you don't care about casting Silent Image only when you really need to, adapting the image to each and every creature you cross.

5. Pyrotechnics
You are free to play games with a soloing mindset. It's a bit sad though considering D&d (and roleplaying games in general) have a strong teamwork part in their genes.
Also, it's not just "weak Blindness". It's a non-concentration, 1mn free "mass blindness" (10-feet radius) or "stickier" Fog Cloud (needs strong wind to disperse).
As for "relies on fire and positioning". Well, positioning is basically a problem for any and every spell with an Area of Effect, so not really a problem of Pyrotechnics specifically.
As for fire, seriously, it should not be that hard to get some, putting Create Bonfire aside.
RAW: familiar holding torch or lamp and letting it fall on ground, Thief friend throwing one, picking some space from a Wall of Fire or using any natural fire burning on ground for whatever reason (Grease or Oil lit on fire).
Also, note that you CAN extinguish the fire, but it's not an imperative effect fo the spell. So techically you could reuse the same source of fire on several consecutive turns (making the "Familiar holding torch" tactic particularly nice).

Also, while it depends on a pal, it could be funny to have someone with Produce Flame and ready your cast for when the cantrip flame reaches the enemy. Not the most efficient combo for sure, but very classy. ;)

6. Leomund's Tiny Hut
Your argument is very true. Indeed, in most cases you wouldn't bother casting it "normally" since it can be ritual cast.
So it's not a good optimization choice for most Wizards, no argue on that. It's more of a "fluff" thing if you'd like: being the one that has been sheltering the whole group all this time, so it has become the mark of your presence. ^^ Still it has its uses. A few times with a group my Wizard managed to cast LTH while pressed by enemies (or with little time to cast because on the verge of being spotted), with people covering for him (notably Sanctuary and Shield of Faith ;))).
Also, I found a few occasions when it was used as a decoy, with Wizard escaping by another mean in the end.
When on enemy grounds, 1mn of (relative) "tranquillity" (or at worse keeping the threat level to an acceptable level) is often easier to manage than 10 full mn. :)
It's VERY situational (confer all the threads explaining how and why LTH is a good spell but certainly not an auto-win ;)), but extremely fun when it happens. And it did save asses in the end more often than once.

SharkForce

2017-07-04, 03:55 PM

for damaging AoE level 2, you've got snilloc's snowball swam from elemental evil. it has upsides and downsides compared to shatter, but it's certainly not a bad option either.

(as for damaging objects, fire bolt does that).

in any event, i do think there's nothing wrong with pyrotechnics. it isn't that uncommon for fire to be thrown around all over the place in D&D... i wouldn't be surprised if many groups had a use for it. especially if you pick fireball as one of your two signature spells... (that said, pretty sure it's a 1 round, not 1 minute, blind... the fog lasts, the blinding flash does not). still, concentration-free is nice.

Dalebert

2017-07-04, 04:18 PM

1. Flaming Sphere
True, for quick encounters it's not the best choice, but for encounters lasting 5 rounds or more?

You often don't know at the start whether it's going to be a long encounter and it's still fairly pitiful dmg at tier 4.

As a Wizard, what other uses would you have for your bonus action?
Commanding an undead or unseen servants, and you could have a LOT of unseen servants if you took it as one of your spell mastery slots. I discussed some uses of this earlier (I think in this thread).

Apart from Misty Step (which you shouldn't have to use so much as a ranged caster) I really don't see any.

Have you played the higher tiers much? I find extra movement turns out to be pretty useful for a wizard. Enemies do chase after you if they're intelligent. Depending on numbers and terrain, tanks can't keep them all off of you. Also some spells call for maneuvering into position for optimal results, e.g. Lightning Bolt and Sunbeam. My lvl 12 wizard was moving around a lot to get more enemies with Sunbeam in a recent game.

2. Phantasmal Force
Ok, now I see your problem: you mesure everything by damage alone.

I don't though. Have you seen my list of spells? This was one of them. You're the one who described it as "deadly". I merely pointed out that this one is more about crowd control, and specifically for creatures with low int. It's a decent choice; just kind of niche. That said, it's a more viable choice for an illusionist because it's more versatile. They can even make real objects out of it.

4. Silent Image
Good catch about Major Image, didn't realize you could upcast it to get over maximum duration and concentration. So indeed, since you can change spells between days, probably not many situations where Silent Image would be better...
If you put aside the fact that "having Major Images following you around" with image and sound is... Well, not sneaky at all. And the shape changes are limited once cast. Whereas you don't care about casting Silent Image only when you really need to, adapting the image to each and every creature you cross.

5. Pyrotechnics
You are free to play games with a soloing mindset. It's a bit sad though considering D&d (and roleplaying games in general) have a strong teamwork part in their genes.

It's not a soloing mindset. You're straw-manning me pretty hard here. Action economy is HUGE. You don't want to pick a spell mastery based on requiring another character to blow their limited actions on a fire cantrip so you can make use of an already sort of hard to justify spell mastery who's main use would be to blind things. I feel like you haven't played in the higher levels. Your actions and your concentration are both very precious whereas you have 18 butt-tons of spell slots. You're less worried about spell slot efficiency and having something you can do for free each round than you are about making sure your actions carry a punch. You are facing powerful things and picking effective things to do with limited actions and one concentration slot are far more crucial than doing clever things with low-level spells that you can cast for free. This is why fast-cast spells are popular for spell mastery. You can cast them a LOT without impacting action economy.

As for "relies on fire and positioning". Well, positioning is basically a problem for any and every spell with an Area of Effect, so not really a problem of Pyrotechnics specifically.

Not as much as with pyrotechnics. THat's a spell that requires fire to be where you need it to be BEFORE you cast it.

Also, while it depends on a pal, it could be funny to have someone with Produce Flame and ready your cast for when the cantrip flame reaches the enemy. Not the most efficient combo for sure, but very classy.

Hey, we're just talking about optimization choices here and I'm just disagreeing a little bit. It's totally fine to make sub-optimal choices for fun's sake. I'm just doing what this forum does best--debating optimization and tactics. You're brainstorming ideas which is great. Don't take it personally when I critically examine them and try to separate the wheat from the chafe(sp?).

6. Leomund's Tiny Hut
...
It's VERY situational

Exactly. You don't pick a VERY situational spell for your signature spell. Prepare it so you can cast it in a minute instead of 10? Perhaps. But pick it as something you can do for free every short rest? I question the logic of that.

SharkForce

2017-07-04, 04:58 PM

@dalebert: just to be clear, pyrotechnics doesn't require concentration; it's an instant spell with effects that last for a period of time. it still has the other drawbacks (which as noted might be somewhat mitigated as a result of the amount of fire damage that is sometimes thrown around in D&D), but it is not competing for your concentration. as for your action, it really isn't that bad of a use of an action. blocking vision or blinding a target (or several targets) can be extremely high value in the right fight.

Dalebert

2017-07-04, 05:59 PM

I'm aware it doesn't require concentration and said so in an earlier post. That particular statement was a more general one about tactical choices and what matters in tier 4 and how it might affect your spell mastery choices.

More specific to pyrotechnics, I mentioned that if you want to blind something, you can do that with blindness/deafness at the same level and without all the complexities of pyrotechnics. I'm not saying don't prepare it. I'm saying it's niche enough due to those complexities that it's arguably a poor choice for spell mastery. If you want to blind things a lot, blindness/deafness is also not concentration and it will typically blind things for longer.

If you like pyrotechnics because it can briefly blind things but it can also imitate a Fog Cloud effect, I think that's a decent argument for simply preparing it so you can cast it if needed instead of preparing Fog Cloud but not necessarily an argument for spell mastery. It's complications make it a poor choice regarding action economy whereas Blindness/Deafness is quite viable to spam.

SharkForce

2017-07-04, 06:27 PM

blindness/deafness works on one target (as a spell mastery anyways). pyrotechnics can work on a group. and frankly, con save spells that give a save every round rarely last as long as i want them to, personally... obviously pyrotechnics is guaranteed to not last long, but if you can find a group to target you can probably at least get it to work on one of them, which isn't at all certain when you're talking about blindness/deafness. and of course, pyrotechnics can also work on targets that you can't see, as long as you can see the fire nearby :)

i don't know if pyrotechnics would be something to want all the time, but i do think it has plenty to recommend it. in contrast, i think i would almost never choose blindness/deafness.

Dalebert

2017-07-04, 06:57 PM

i don't know if pyrotechnics would be something to want all the time, but i do think it has plenty to recommend it. in contrast, i think i would almost never choose blindness/deafness.

Not one of my first choices either. Just noting complications with Pyrontechnics which also wasn't a first choice for me but I'm contemplating how one could make it work now.

My list of options for my illusionist included Unseen Servant. My thought was I would cast it and immediately bonus action command it to stay in a certain position relative to a character, e.g. "Stay just to the right of Bob." Cast again and "Stay just to the left of Bob", and so on. You have multiple USes that are following particular characters around thereby positioning them all over the battlefield. Give some of them torches. Now you can command the most conveniently located one to move up to 20 ft amongst certain enemies and you have your seed for Pyro with just a bonus action. These aren't JUST devoted to Pyro, of course. They're also conveniently situated to grab a healing potion off someone who has fallen and administer it. Any time you have an unused bonus action, you can do something useful with it. Maybe reload the rogue's hand crossbow. Maybe drop some caltrops or ball bearings in a tactical location. Have a whole other cluster of USes who are following you around with the command to "Follow me and pick up any ball bearings within 10 feet of me and put them in this bag." Now when the fight is over, you just walk near the ball bearings and they end up rapidly back in the sack from your contingent of ball-bearing-picker-upper USes.

My problem with having just the one US in the past via 10 mins of ritual casting is it can only move 20 ft and often dies from AOEs. With an army of USes all over the place, you are much more likely to have one close enough for what you want as well as a decent chance that some will survive an AOE.

Dalebert

2017-07-04, 07:14 PM

See Invisible
Essentially, gives the whole party this ability all the time

See Invisibility is self-only.

sir_argo

2017-07-04, 08:07 PM

See Invisibility is self-only.

My mistake.

Citan

2017-07-05, 05:17 AM

Not one of my first choices either. Just noting complications with Pyrontechnics which also wasn't a first choice for me but I'm contemplating how one could make it work now.

My list of options for my illusionist included Unseen Servant. My thought was I would cast it and immediately bonus action command it to stay in a certain position relative to a character, e.g. "Stay just to the right of Bob." Cast again and "Stay just to the left of Bob", and so on. You have multiple USes that are following particular characters around thereby positioning them all over the battlefield. Give some of them torches. Now you can command the most conveniently located one to move up to 20 ft amongst certain enemies and you have your seed for Pyro with just a bonus action. These aren't JUST devoted to Pyro, of course. They're also conveniently situated to grab a healing potion off someone who has fallen and administer it. Any time you have an unused bonus action, you can do something useful with it. Maybe reload the rogue's hand crossbow. Maybe drop some caltrops or ball bearings in a tactical location. Have a whole other cluster of USes who are following you around with the command to "Follow me and pick up any ball bearings within 10 feet of me and put them in this bag." Now when the fight is over, you just walk near the ball bearings and they end up rapidly back in the sack from your contingent of ball-bearing-picker-upper USes.

My problem with having just the one US in the past via 10 mins of ritual casting is it can only move 20 ft and often dies from AOEs. With an army of USes all over the place, you are much more likely to have one close enough for what you want as well as a decent chance that some will survive an AOE.
About positioning fire, again, I really don't think that's that much of a problem, between familiar, throws and friends, it shouldn't be that complicated to find a well-positioned fire.

And you are breaking a basic rule with your suggested use of Unseen Servant: they cannot administer potions, because magic potions are their own action, not "Use an Object" action per Crawford's ruling (so, a fortiori, not a simple object interaction such as the ones any character can do free once per turn, which is obviously the kind of interaction the US can do).
Furthermore, it would need to grab caltrops and such beforehand from your bag (or a friend's) then go put it away 15 feet by 15 feet -not 20-, which is very noticeable by enemies. With any AOE or attack quickly dispatching them.
With yourself within 60 feet, meaning not that far from threats (well, you have Misty Step to go further back when needed -ah, nop, because you would make all servants instantly disappear. XD)

Sure, as a free spell you could grab a small army, and use them as meat shield (it's still a form that has physical consistance) which would be funny (I did once, when ritual cast for an encounter which we knew was coming, worked well against mooks, then came a Burning Hands... XD Also worked because of a lenient DM which allowed "Protect me" command to work -that once, per ROC. Per RAW you can interact with only one servant per turn, and you have to order it to interact with an object). But since we are talking about end-tier encounters, I really don't see them lasting more than one or two turns once the enemy understood what they were.

I agree it's often an underestimated spell, because just grabbing things can be greatly beneficial, especially paired with a Thief (Sleight of Hand as bonus action) or Battlemaster (Disarm). Plus all the things someone could do with a Mage Hand, but with greater range, better duration and lesser action cost.

But it's as underwhelming as many other spells when considered as a spell mastery choice for a hostile encounter.
And besides, like you said, why grab a spell that can be ritual cast as a mastery?
Especially since US lasts an hour (so you can easily ritual cast it a handful or more for minimal loss of time), but won't last more than a few rounds in encounters if you try to make use of it.

For an Illusionist, Silent Image will be much better.

Now, a Wizard that would grab Unseen Servant because he is devoting his life to help commoners with their chores, or being hired by a rich one to take care of his castle, now I could understand. ;)

Dalebert

2017-07-05, 10:44 AM

About positioning fire, again, I really don't think that's that much of a problem, between familiar, throws and friends, it shouldn't be that complicated to find a well-positioned fire.

Well we'll just continue to disagree there, I guess. I don't think my tier 4 companions want to waste their actions setting me up for Pyrotechnics, not when the fighter gets 4 or 5 attacks with his action and the rogue gets sneak attack of 10d6 and so forth. Maybe there's a thief who has an unneeded fast hands but I wouldn't want to count on it.

And you are breaking a basic rule with your suggested use of Unseen Servant: they cannot administer potions

Strictly speaking, it's the RAW, though I haven't had a DM yet say no to this. It kinda breaks my immersion frankly. Yes, it's technically activating a magic item but it's more realistically a basic mundane action of pouring something out of a vial into a certain hole.

Furthermore, it would need to grab caltrops and such beforehand from your bag (or a friend's) then go put it away 15 feet by 15 feet -not 20-, which is very noticeable by enemies. With any AOE or attack quickly dispatching them.

Many of them are already carrying a little bag of all they need--caltrops, ball bearings, a torch, a tinderbox, couple bottles of oil. Obviously you don't want them wasting their very limited movement to go get things. You have an ARMY and they can each easily carry 30 lbs. You don't need to carry anything yourself ever. And who cares if some die? They're completely disposable. You have like 50+ of them all over the place at any time.

With yourself within 60 feet, meaning not that far from threats (well, you have Misty Step to go further back when needed -ah, nop, because you would make all servants instantly disappear. XD)

No. AGain, you have an army of them. Maybe you lose half of them... maybe--however many are on the very outskirts of your limit in that direction. *shrug* Now I only have 25 left. Boo hoo.

Sure, as a free spell you could grab a small army, and use them as meat shield (it's still a form that has physical consistance)

Not really. They're not creatures; just formless fields of energy. It can't stop an enemy from moving through its space. I think that's beyond the RAW and it's a good thing as it would be overpowered. The good side of that is surrounding every PC with about 4 of them doesn't trip up the PC.

Per RAW you can interact with only one servant per turn, and you have to order it to interact with an object).

Yes, and they're slow and very fragile. You might want to do something but it will take a couple of turns for it to get to where it needs to be. Having MANY that are trivial to summon vastly expands your reach and many of them can have assigned tasks from the moment you created them, e.g. "Follow me and put any ball bearings within 5 ft of me into this bag." and another--"Follow me and put any caltrops into this (other) bag." Now you don't have to command those again. You have ball-bearing-picker-upper powers for an hour.

You don't need a bag of holding. You summon as many as needed to carry all the treasure out of the dungeon. You can have one that just holds 30 lbs of sacks to hand out to other ones.

And besides, like you said, why grab a spell that can be ritual cast as a mastery?

For the reasons above. That's why just one that takes 10 minutes to summon is only mildly utilitarian. Having an army that you can replenish at a whim as you're casually walking down dungeon corridors though means they're extremely disposable, much more disposable than having wasted 10 minutes to get one.

For an Illusionist, Silent Image will be much better.

*shrug* Because I can make my illusions real with a bonus action? You would think so. Thing is I already have an array of illusions at my disposal. I always cast Seeming on the entire party and my skeletons that lasts 8 hours. I can now make one appear to be holding an object and make that object real. I always have 2 or 3 permanent Major Images. Honestly, I probably will assign Silent Image or Phantasmal Force to my simulacrum so IT can make illusions and control them and make things real for me, freeing up my actions for better things, particularly since it doesn't get spell slots back and those are actions it can do without risk.

Now, a Wizard that would grab Unseen Servant because he is devoting his life to help commoners with their chores, or being hired by a rich one to take care of his castle, now I could understand. ;)

YOu just have to use your imagination a bit to fully realize the potential of this choice. The potential is big enough to deserve its own thread which I made last night (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?529281-How-would-you-use-an-army-of-Unseen-Servants).

Whit

2017-07-05, 03:29 PM

Let's remember the basics.
The level 1-2 spells MUST be memorized. So take that into count. If you have 3 lvl 1 spells 1 will be a freebie abs the other 2 will cost a spell slot. So your lvl 1-2 spell preferably is something you will be spamming Alot in game to get use out of, leaving your other spells to your limited slots.
Also since it will be basic level most likely to not use up slots it's better to get a non damage spell since fire bolt will be a. Enter spamming damage spell.
Therefore it really is based on what you want to spam and always have available. Because you can always change it.

If it's a concentration spell that's fine you can concentrate abs still cast non concentration spells abs you can spam it per round if you choose. Is it the best choice? Not really but that's for you to decide what you would like to cast slot if times during the game.
For level 3 it does not count towards memorized max but you can only use it once per short long rest and basically at lvl 3 with option to cast it higher using a higher slot. But preferably not. Same options as above.

Dalebert

2017-07-05, 03:56 PM

I could see Animate Dead as one of my signature spells. Keeps my skeleton army replenished and healthy and it can reassert control over 4 creatures at the standard level.

Whit

2017-07-05, 04:17 PM

I could see Animate Dead as one of my signature spells. Keeps my skeleton army replenished and healthy and it can reassert control over 4 creatures at the standard level.

Sounds great. Just remember to talk it over with the DM so he can let you know limits if any and gives you a chance to rethink it.

What's your alignment and worship.
Why do you animate dead and where do they stay what do you use them for
How does the group or town react to seeing undead and how they are used.
Do you only animate dead things you killed and use them as canon fodder in Dungeons? .

KorvinStarmast

2017-07-05, 06:04 PM

My problem with Shatter is the Con save.
Granted, it keeps hordes of mooks at bay, but as an "at will" the plus is thunder damage being less resisted but the con of high level opponents is a guaranteed half damage.

I like that it breaks certain things. Handy for a lot of reasons.

Misty Step

Hard to argue with this as an at will spell.

IMO, since your cantrips have additional damage die at this exalted level(4 dice for most) I'd suggest Shield and Misty Step for the choice at 18.
Lots of utility for both.

PhantomSoul

2017-07-05, 06:58 PM

Another fun option with Misty Step is that it being a Bonus Action spell gives it added utility. And sure, you're thinking, "Yeah, we know, that's kind of the point!" But you can set a Contingency spell to using Misty Step (perhaps specifying that the character also know there are enemies within, say, 60 feet), which means you can have a Greater Invisibility spell prepared. For a character I'm planning, I'm doing similar with using Bladesong as a trigger, and it seems like a nice way to get extra action efficiency without it being a burden on spell slots!

Dalebert

2017-07-05, 10:52 PM

SharkForce

2017-07-06, 12:22 AM

Aside from Animate Dead, I'm torn between Major Image and Haste as my other choice. Major Image seems like a clear choice as an illusionist but I tend to just keep a couple of permanent ones around to turn into whatever I want so it's not really needed that often.

CN and "the D".

I use them to shoot arrows, carry things, administer healing potions to fallen allies. They each have a backpack with useful gear. They carry torches if I want fire around or lanterns of continual flame cast at 3rd level if I want light, like if humans are in the party or there's magical darkness. I use Seeming to make them look like me for an always-on Mirror Image effect to keep enemies confused. They each have three Magic Mouths on them that I can reprogram with an action as needed so they actually respond to specific queues with specific replies.

The uses are endless.

I would assume poorly if I let them see them. Duh! They're always completely covered or disguised with Seeming if I have to bring them into town, which would be rare. What would be the point?

*shrug* Whatever's convenient. Mostly I'm re-animating the bones of my own killed skeletons.

well, given this theoretical wizard is level 20 you could always use a combination of finger of death + true polymorph to give yourself a large number of loyal servants of whatever CR 1/4 creature you want.

aarakocra, flying swords, some kinds of mephits, grimlocks, pixies/sprites, slaad tadpoles or myconid sprouts, and a variety of interesting and useful animals, and especially NPCs (of a variety of races as well)... you can have a corps of acolytes to cure your wounds, as one interesting example.

basically... the world is your oyster (https://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder) ;)

(just set min CR to 0, max to 1/4, and think about what you could do with the resulting list.... start up a silk farm with giant spiders, for example, and who knows what you could do with hundreds of kobold inventors? i don't even know what their stat block looks like, but i bet you could do something interesting :) )

oh, and bonus marks for making all of them half-dragons :P

Citan

2017-07-06, 04:47 AM

Strictly speaking, it's the RAW, though I haven't had a DM yet say no to this. It kinda breaks my immersion frankly. Yes, it's technically activating a magic item but it's more realistically a basic mundane action of pouring something out of a vial into a certain hole.

Many of them are already carrying a little bag of all they need--caltrops, ball bearings, a torch, a tinderbox, couple bottles of oil. Obviously you don't want them wasting their very limited movement to go get things. You have an ARMY and they can each easily carry 30 lbs. You don't need to carry anything yourself ever. And who cares if some die? They're completely disposable. You have like 50+ of them all over the place at any time.

No. AGain, you have an army of them. Maybe you lose half of them... maybe--however many are on the very outskirts of your limit in that direction. *shrug* Now I only have 25 left. Boo hoo.

Not really. They're not creatures; just formless fields of energy. It can't stop an enemy from moving through its space. I think that's beyond the RAW and it's a good thing as it would be overpowered. The good side of that is surrounding every PC with about 4 of them doesn't trip up the PC.

YOu just have to use your imagination a bit to fully realize the potential of this choice. The potential is big enough to deserve its own thread which I made last night (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?529281-How-would-you-use-an-army-of-Unseen-Servants).
My imagination is very fine, thank you. Yours seems biaised enough to refuse to face all the things that make your idea a nice one, not a great one.

First, as said, no magic potions.
Second, traveling: ONE can move PER TURN, 15 FEET. Are you really considering dragging your whole party down? I don't see any reasonable party agreeing to advance to an increasingly small portion of their normal traveling speed just for the sake of you having your personal fun army.
("Slow" traveling pace is 200 feet per minute, so 20 feet per turn. With just one US, you are capping yourself -so the whole party as a consequence- to 150 feet per minute. Totally acceptable. Now with just even only 5? It takes 30 second for your 'group' to move 15 feet. So your speed is now 3 feet per turn*).
So, basically, you have to create your army when you know you are gonna need it.
Which brings the next problem.

Third, preparation: with 1 cast per 6 sec, you can make 10 US per minute, so you could easily get 50 US in just 5 mn. Let's say that, because it's the logical thing to do, you put out a very big bag of things beforehand and use your bonus action on the same turn you create an US to tell him to grab a few caltrops or somethings.
It's still five full minutes to spend somewhat close to enemy (confer the previous point: the more US you have, the less mobile you become, mathematically), without moving. Let's hope you found a great hiding place (you could make one easily as a Wizard, but it will consume a few slots: at the very least, a Rope Trick -if DM consider that US don't have their own space, which can be debated imo but that's another thing-).

Now let's say your army is ready. Let's even put all checkers on green for you...
- US does not occupy any space.
- Your party agrees to move as slowly as needed to progress towards the encounter (which is a VERY bad tactic in nearly all situations relating to moving wherein enemy grounds: more time to make a step = more chances for enemy to detect, more time to organize).
- You always find a way to make US move (giving even the stupidest of orders such as "grab some dirt there" - because per RAW interacting with an object coud be read as a necessary order and the reason of the move - although the other way is as acceptable: the "and" is really ambiguous there, so not sure about RAI honestly).
- You managed to put all of them "in front of you" nevertheless.

You finally start an encounter: whatever way you look at it, in most fights, your melee fighters will already have engaged for at least 1 round, maybe 2 or 3, before you get one US to a good position.
Let's remember this: ONE. Unless...
a) Your whole party goes with the "let's use US" things and do everything it can to always keep US between them and the enemy.
b) The enemy lets it go without any saying (which shouldn't happen often).
In most situations, the enemy should engage further than where your US are, or maybe wait in the back because there are traps around (which some caltrops may maybe trigger, but certainly not all).

Let's now consider the worst occurence, you have to flee. Let's imagine that all your US were conveniently positioned to form several consecutive lines. You can still make them drop caltrops, but once per round, so 5 square feet per 5 square feet. With enemy having usually at least 30 feet of movement, not including Dash/Jump/Fly/whatever else, only in very narrow corridors could this be a decently efficient tactic.
And, let's not forget you are trying this because you are trying to run away. Meaning you decided the threat was too much to handle.
Since you have to stay within 60 feet to keep US available, you keep yourself exposed to all ranged threats, unless a) you use Greater Insibility or the like or b) other people stay also and cover for you (= your party is running away... Slowly. Great logic).

Let's now consider the best occurence, you stayed and put up a fight, you managed to make great use of US, and enemies a) were too stupid to realize that caltrops or torch flying around weren't natural b) nothing in the place was set to at least Detect Magic (we are talking about dungeons made for 18+ here, seems unlikely) and c) nothing or nobody among enemies had any way to dispatch such a weak threat (again, VERY unlikely, between AOE spells, swarms, or just plain "endless" mooks).
As long as you used them against "brainless" armies and killed absolutely everyone, and didn't brag about it, you should be able to use this kind of tactics several times.
Just the first time after you either let one enemy go or fighted an evil with a minimum brain, he will take counter-measures against it.

These are all the reasons why "using an US army -pun intented- to fight" is a nice dream, but fails to survive the reality check. Whereas undead army is solid, but goes with its own problems (mainly social interaction with people around).

* Made me think about a potential trick to circumvent the "non-hostile" traveling problem, but I don't see how it would be justified without a DM ruling: if DM agrees that they take no space (+: there is no "size" precised. -: if they take no space, they should be able to reside 'into' the space of another creature, but it's usually written expressely), maybe you could "stack" them all on a Tenser's Floating Disk. I don't think RAW can cover this case. And not sure about how I would rule it...

Dalebert

2017-07-06, 08:31 AM

If you think this one choice is worthy of such walls of text, I think it's probably courteous to use the other more specific thread.

Not making a wall of text in response. Only going to say that yes, they limit the party to 150 ft per turn but you're moving very slowly and cautiously in dungeons or wherever the destination is with a lot of stopping to check for traps, open doors etc. For the most part, they would keep up no problem. I think you're exaggerating that issue a bit. I don't know why you think the number of US makes you move slower though. That doesn't compute.

Again though, if you really want to continue to obsess over this one, I'd suggest the other thread.

Citan

2017-07-06, 12:35 PM

SharkForce

2017-07-06, 01:25 PM

Simply because you can move/order only one Unseen Servant every 6 second. It's basic math really.

the orders can last for longer, however, as evidenced by some of the explicit list of things an unseen servant can be ordered to do. and it can, ultimately, involve multiple objects. for example "fill this sack with marbles" (or, to use an example straight out of the spell, "fold these clothes"). if you can't have the servants follow the person technically, have them follow an object the person is carrying.

still not certain i would consider the unseen servant spell mastery, but there's plenty that you can do.

Citan

2017-07-06, 02:52 PM

the orders can last for longer, however, as evidenced by some of the explicit list of things an unseen servant can be ordered to do. and it can, ultimately, involve multiple objects. for example "fill this sack with marbles" (or, to use an example straight out of the spell, "fold these clothes"). if you can't have the servants follow the person technically, have them follow an object the person is carrying.

still not certain i would consider the unseen servant spell mastery, but there's plenty that you can do.
Well, maybe, or probably not. :)
Unless you make a very liberal reading of the description.
The part you are making reference to ("The servant can perform simple tasks that a human servant could do, such as fetching things, cleaning, mending, folding clothes, etc") is written as to provide general examples to help players understand what kind of interactions they can count on, including indeed some tasks that would reasonably require several turns to accomplish. But the part akin to the actual effect of the spell is just before, and very explicit: "once on each of your turns as a bonus action, you can mentally command 1. the servant to move up to 15 feet 3. and interact with 2. an object".

Because we have other spells and features that follow rules of writing to provide a framework, we can make comparisons to determine the scale and potential WoTC actually wanted to give to this spell.

1. You can command only one US per turn: compare with Create Undead, which explicitely allows you to give "group orders" within the same bonus action to any selection among all the undeads you control.
You could also compare with Conjure spells, although I feel they are a bit different in concept, or maybe not after all. :)

2. You can command only interaction with one object only. Your example of "filling bag with marbles" is smart, because the "main" object is the bag, and it's a simple task. :) Still technically it's manipulating several objects. A rigid DM could certainly consider it's against RAW.
(We totally agree there is no sensible reason not to allow it though. ;)).

3. That's the point that can be very ambigous at first glance. There is absolutely nothing per grammar rules to tell whether the "and" should be understood as providing an alternative (you can command to move, and you can command to interact, so either one or both at once) or as an inclusion (you can command to interact, and make move up to 15 feet to make this order possible to comply to).
With that said...
- When comparing with Mage Hand, you can see that the writing separates clearly the "move" part which is entirely optional, and the "interaction part". Which could be explained by the fact that the hand can explicitely carry things (so there are some turns when you could want only the hand to move, without any interaction with anything: move is a feature).
- When comparing with Spiritual Weapon, which has a very similar wording to Unseen Servant, it's obvious that the move is just a necessary component of the effect, it's just a way to make the effect actually realizable.
- Finally, note that all example given are relative to "static" actions (I mean, actions that do not require any significant traveling, no more than 1-2 feet from the object probably).

Hence my understanding strongly tilting in favor of the "move as a part of the order to interact with an object".
Meaning that you cannot order an interaction with an object if it's not reachable within the same turn the command is issued, but, conversely, you can order an interaction with an object located up to 15 feet from the US because it's within its per-turn movement capability, within its "reach" so to speak (same as with Spiritual Weapon).

No idea whether there have been any clarification or Sage Advice on the topic though. :)

Make no mistake, I love that spell and I find it one of the ten rituals anyone should have (Find Familiar, Alarm, Detect Magic, Gentle Repose, Comprehend Languages, Unseen Servant, Tenser's Floating Disk, Leomund's Tiny Hut, forgot the last two XD). Because it's indeed very versatile.
But, as sad as it is for me to drill down the apparent potential of a creative spell as suggested by other people (I think you will easily understand what I mean here considering some of our past discussions XD), it is necessary to avoid making spell bigger than it is really and having players face utter disappointment later. :)

SharkForce

2017-07-06, 03:05 PM

Well, maybe, or probably not. :)
Unless you make a very liberal reading of the description.
The part you are making reference to ("The servant can perform simple tasks that a human servant could do, such as fetching things, cleaning, mending, folding clothes, etc") is written as to provide general examples to help players understand what kind of interactions they can count on, including indeed some tasks that would reasonably require several turns to accomplish. But the part akin to the actual effect of the spell is just before, and very explicit: "once on each of your turns as a bonus action, you can mentally command 1. the servant to move up to 15 feet 3. and interact with 2. an object".

Because we have other spells and features that follow rules of writing to provide a framework, we can make comparisons to determine the scale and potential WoTC actually wanted to give to this spell.

1. You can command only one US per turn: compare with Create Undead, which explicitely allows you to give "group orders" within the same bonus action to any selection among all the undeads you control.
You could also compare with Conjure spells, although I feel they are a bit different in concept. :)

2. You can command only interaction with one object only. Your example of "filling bag with marbles" is smart, because the "main" object is the bag, and it's a simple task. :) Still technically it's manipulating several objects. A rigid DM could certainly consider it's against RAW.
(We totally agree there is no sensible reason not to allow it though. ;)).

3. That's the point that can be very ambigous at first glance. There is absolutely nothing per grammar rules to tell whether the "and" should be understood as providing an alternative (you can command to move, and you can command to interact, so either one or both at once) or as an inclusion (you can command to interact, and make move up to 15 feet to make this order possible to comply to).
With that said...
- When comparing with Mage Hand, you can see that the writing separates clearly the "move" part which is entirely optional, and the "interaction part". Which could be explained by the fact that the hand can explicitely carry things (so there are some turns when you could want only the hand to move, without any interaction with anything: move is a feature).
- When comparing with Spiritual Weapon, which has a very similar wording to Unseen Servant, it's obvious that the move is just a necessary component of the effect, it's just a way to make the effect actually realizable.
- Finally, note that all example given are relative to "static" actions (I mean, actions that do not require any significant traveling, no more than 1-2 feet from the object probably).

Hence my understanding strongly tilting in favor of the "move as a part of the order to interact with an object".
Meaning that you cannot order an interaction with an object if it's not reachable within the same turn the command is issued, but, conversely, you can order an interaction with an object located up to 15 feet from the US because it's within its per-turn movement capability, within its "reach" so to speak (same as with Spiritual Weapon).

No idea whether there have been any clarification or Sage Advice on the topic though. :)

if an interpretation of a spell requires you to presume that the spell cannot do what the spell explicitly says it can do, that interpretation of the spell is wrong.

so yes, there are ways to interpret the spell that make it impossible to use as described. but since they make it impossible to use as described, we can tell that they're the incorrect ones.

Citan

2017-07-06, 06:43 PM

if an interpretation of a spell requires you to presume that the spell cannot do what the spell explicitly says it can do, that interpretation of the spell is wrong.

so yes, there are ways to interpret the spell that make it impossible to use as described. but since they make it impossible to use as described, we can tell that they're the incorrect ones.
That's just avoiding to provide any constructive argument by the way of a fallacy.
My interpretation is totally compatible with the examples given. ;)

SharkForce

2017-07-06, 07:24 PM

That's just avoiding to provide any constructive argument by the way of a fallacy.
My interpretation is totally compatible with the examples given. ;)

your interpretation isn't totally compatible with the spell. this isn't 4e; there is no part of the spell in italics which we're supposed to interpret as meaningless fluff that has no impact on the mechanics. all of the spell description is telling us what the spell does.

so if an interpretation goes against the part where it says you can command the servant to do simple things that a human servant could do, like carrying a bag of things for you, that interpretation must be faulty. if there is an interpretation that says the unseen servant doesn't continue to perform the task until it is completed, that interpretation must be faulty. therefore the interpretation that you can only order interaction with a single object, and possibly movement, or that the movement or interaction cannot last for more than a single action, must be faulty.

any valid interpretation of the spell must allow for the unseen servant to perform tasks for as long as it takes to complete them, and cannot exclude simple things that a human servant could be commanded to do.

so, the only valid conclusion is that telling the servant to move and interact with a single object in a way that lasts for only that one action is only one of the options for your commands (perhaps being unique in that it is a purely mental action). we could also conclude that no matter how extensive your order is, the servant only has 15 feet of movement and one object interaction per round to complete the order, so for example it could not open 2 doors per round, nor could it perform a dash action to move 30 feet.

now, that still leaves you giving one order to one servant per round, but the rest of your interpretation means the spell doesn't function the way the spell says it functions, so it must be a faulty interpretation.

in like manner, any interpretation that ignores any other part of the description must be invalid; for example, the servant can fetch you things because that is a simple task that a human servant can perform, but we cannot infer that it could fetch you things that are more than 60 feet away (unless you move with it), because that would require ignoring another part of the spell description, and no matter how much we might like to decide that the 60 foot limitation is just fluff, we don't get to just designate it as fluff.

Zalabim

2017-07-07, 05:52 AM

If it's going to be the topic, someone might as well quote Unseen Servant for everyone to reference.
1st-level conjuration (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components V, S, M (a piece of string and a bit of wood)
Duration: 1 hour

This spell creates an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at your command until the spell ends. The servant springs into existence in an unoccupied space on the ground within range. It has AC 10, 1 hit point, and a Strength of 2, and it can't attack. If it drops to 0 hit points, the spell ends.

Once on each of your turns as a bonus action, you can mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object. The servant can perform simple tasks that a human servant could do, such as fetching things, cleaning, mending, folding clothes, lighting fires, serving food, and pouring wine. Once you give the command, the servant performs the task to the best of its ability until it completes the task, then waits for your next command.

If you command the servant to perform a task that would move it more than 60 feet away from you, the spell ends.

I think if US could move every round on its own, it would note its movement speed.

Elminster298

2017-07-07, 09:47 AM

If someone ever tried to pull this "unseen servant" ploy in a game where I was DM, I would go full on "Mr. Meseeks" episode from Rick and Morty. They would develope a society, intelligence, eventually deciding the the only way to help humans is to put them in cages like pet so they can be controlled. Huge story arc to try to get rid of them. I have ALWAYS allowed players to abuse mechanics such as this....but I ALWAYS punish them for it by turning it into a story arc.

Citan

2017-07-07, 10:41 AM

your interpretation isn't totally compatible with the spell. this isn't 4e; there is no part of the spell in italics which we're supposed to interpret as meaningless fluff that has no impact on the mechanics. all of the spell description is telling us what the spell does.

so if an interpretation goes against the part where it says you can command the servant to do simple things that a human servant could do, like carrying a bag of things for you, that interpretation must be faulty. if there is an interpretation that says the unseen servant doesn't continue to perform the task until it is completed, that interpretation must be faulty. therefore the interpretation that you can only order interaction with a single object, and possibly movement, or that the movement or interaction cannot last for more than a single action, must be faulty.

any valid interpretation of the spell must allow for the unseen servant to perform tasks for as long as it takes to complete them, and cannot exclude simple things that a human servant could be commanded to do.

so, the only valid conclusion is that telling the servant to move and interact with a single object in a way that lasts for only that one action is only one of the options for your commands (perhaps being unique in that it is a purely mental action). we could also conclude that no matter how extensive your order is, the servant only has 15 feet of movement and one object interaction per round to complete the order, so for example it could not open 2 doors per round, nor could it perform a dash action to move 30 feet.

now, that still leaves you giving one order to one servant per round, but the rest of your interpretation means the spell doesn't function the way the spell says it functions, so it must be a faulty interpretation.

in like manner, any interpretation that ignores any other part of the description must be invalid; for example, the servant can fetch you things because that is a simple task that a human servant can perform, but we cannot infer that it could fetch you things that are more than 60 feet away (unless you move with it), because that would require ignoring another part of the spell description, and no matter how much we might like to decide that the 60 foot limitation is just fluff, we don't get to just designate it as fluff.
Ok. From what you said, it seems I poorly worded myself. My bad if what I'm gonna tell now was different from what you understood in previous post. ;)

I didn't imply that you had to reiterate the order on each turn when you wanted the US to interact with the same object.
Like, to take the example of cleaning a cloth, it would obviously take several dozens of seconds, so several turns. So you would only have to use your bonus action on US-A on first turn, then go do something else with it on subsequent turns while US-A is working on this.

What I am saying is...
a) You cannot make an US "just move". It's clearly not separate option. It has to interact with an object. But that object can be located up to 15 feet away from the UA.
b) You cannot go around the inherent 15 feet limitation by telling UA to interact with an object that would located further. The move is just here to give a "reach" to your interact order.
c) You cannot give an order that would make US interact with several objects as prime targets (although your given example of "fill a bag" may work, I don't think it was one of the intended uses but no certainty here, since technically, the rocks are an accessory to the order).

So, let's say you have a child, with his room of 50 feet diameter filled with (dirty, obviously XD) clothes. You cast your US at the entrance (just because easier for example ^^).
An order such as "grab all clothes" would evidently not work.
An order such as "fetch that red cloth" (which is on the opposite wall, so much further than the 15 feet) would not work either.
An order such as "clean that blue cloth" (which is just 5 feet away) would work, but the actual things done by US would probably vary much with every DM involved. While US-A is working on blue cloth, you could summon another one close to the center and ask him to do the same with another clothing in vicinity.

Now the trick of ordering the US to interact with an object but then make someone grab the object and move away to make the US move with it...
I really don't think this would be RAI, but I have no solid argument to support that. So I would allow it, since it's not even a "power" trick or anything like that.

As for what you say (in bolded), again, I'm sorry but my interpretation doesn't prevent it at all. You have to read the "what a human servant can do" IN THE CONTEXT of the previous phrase which limits the effective reach and potency of interactions.

Again, if US was supposed to be able to interact with several objects (either a "group" command or because the order requires a chain of actions with other objects), WoTC would have given as tasks examples, "cleaning rooms", "cooking", "making laundry" etc... Complex interactions. But they didn't give it, because it's a mindless force, which "performs to the best of its ability" (further hinting that its capabilities are very limited).

SharkForce

2017-07-07, 12:45 PM

Ok. From what you said, it seems I poorly worded myself. My bad if what I'm gonna tell now was different from what you understood in previous post. ;)

I didn't imply that you had to reiterate the order on each turn when you wanted the US to interact with the same object.
Like, to take the example of cleaning a cloth, it would obviously take several dozens of seconds, so several turns. So you would only have to use your bonus action on US-A on first turn, then go do something else with it on subsequent turns while US-A is working on this.

What I am saying is...
a) You cannot make an US "just move". It's clearly not separate option. It has to interact with an object. But that object can be located up to 15 feet away from the UA.
b) You cannot go around the inherent 15 feet limitation by telling UA to interact with an object that would located further. The move is just here to give a "reach" to your interact order.
c) You cannot give an order that would make US interact with several objects as prime targets (although your given example of "fill a bag" may work, I don't think it was one of the intended uses but no certainty here, since technically, the rocks are an accessory to the order).

So, let's say you have a child, with his room of 50 feet diameter filled with (dirty, obviously XD) clothes. You cast your US at the entrance (just because easier for example ^^).
An order such as "grab all clothes" would evidently not work.
An order such as "fetch that red cloth" (which is on the opposite wall, so much further than the 15 feet) would not work either.
An order such as "clean that blue cloth" (which is just 5 feet away) would work, but the actual things done by US would probably vary much with every DM involved. While US-A is working on blue cloth, you could summon another one close to the center and ask him to do the same with another clothing in vicinity.

Now the trick of ordering the US to interact with an object but then make someone grab the object and move away to make the US move with it...
I really don't think this would be RAI, but I have no solid argument to support that. So I would allow it, since it's not even a "power" trick or anything like that.

As for what you say (in bolded), again, I'm sorry but my interpretation doesn't prevent it at all. You have to read the "what a human servant can do" IN THE CONTEXT of the previous phrase which limits the effective reach and potency of interactions.

Again, if US was supposed to be able to interact with several objects (either a "group" command or because the order requires a chain of actions with other objects), WoTC would have given as tasks examples, "cleaning rooms", "cooking", "making laundry" etc... Complex interactions. But they didn't give it, because it's a mindless force, which "performs to the best of its ability" (further hinting that its capabilities are very limited).

interacting with the object has to allow multiple objects to be handled. you need to use a cleaning implement (cloth, scrub board, broom, whatever) to clean things even remotely effectively, generally speaking., and the servant doesn't come with any, but we know the unseen servant can clean things as well as a regular servant could, so it must be able to use those implements.

likewise, serving food is another example that we know the servant can perform, but that is generally going to involve using various implements and in many cases serving multiple objects, for example when you're serving a salad that is composed of many smaller objects, or when it needs to handle a serving spoon as well as the soup it is serving (via the spoon). as another example, lighting a fire is generally going to involve two objects; flint & steel, two sticks, a stick and a bow, etc.

"to the best of it's ability" means it has the abilities of a regular servant, not of an expert gourmet chef or the greatest blacksmith in the realms, or even a regular town blacksmith or a trained cook (it can probably manage cooking very basic things, because a typical servant can probably cook *some* things for their own consumption, but nothing fancy; porridge yes, probably a simple soup or scrambled eggs, but it probably can't poach eggs or anything). it can hold a torch if you ask it to, but don't expect it to be able to perform a fire dance with that torch (or at least, expect it to perform very badly, and possibly burn itself for 1 point of damage and be destroyed). it can light the fire in a forge, but can't make anything useful at a forge. basically, it has no proficiencies, so only expect it to be able to do what an individual with an attribute of 10 and no proficiency to be able to do; it doesn't have greater capabilities than that.

the spell has a range of 60 feet, no need to add an extra one there either, nor is there a need to force every order to involve interacting with an object because you could still order the servant to go stand on a point on the ground to get it to move, but that would be stupid and pointless to force the orders to be in terms of an object that a person is carrying rather than just the person (or, in other words, "move to Sir Ragnar's cloak and touch it" accomplishes the same thing as "move to Sir Ragnar", except that it has pointless cumbersome "gotcha" moments that don't really enhance play, so why would you require everything to be phrased in terms of an object when it's just a pointless nuisance?). it makes much more sense to parse the rule about moving and interacting to mean that you can order movement, and you can order interacting with an object, and you can order both of those things together, because you can effectively do that anyways whether the object interaction is required or not.

-------

@elminster:

seriously, screwing someone over for using unseen servant to do things? why would you even do that?. when the fighter makes use of their second action surge per short rest, do you make that action surge be their subconscious and it does whatever it feels like with the second action instead of what the player wanted? someone is using their level 18 ability to get a bunch of unseen servants in a way that doesn't break the game. it's probably less powerful than the typical use of spamming shield, it's easy to counter (they have minimal impact, which means that "ignoring the servants entirely" is not really that different from the servants not being there in the first place), nothing in the spell even remotely suggests the servants becoming sentient could even be a possibility... you already control the world, you don't need to take over the PCs as well. it's the only thing they control, so you'd damn well better have an excellent reason why you're screwing with their actions, and the ability to carry around a bunch of torches and otherwise make a few minor things that they do a bit more convenient is not a remotely compelling reason.

Elminster298

2017-07-07, 07:09 PM

@elminster:

seriously, screwing someone over for using unseen servant to do things? why would you even do that?. when the fighter makes use of their second action surge per short rest, do you make that action surge be their subconscious and it does whatever it feels like with the second action instead of what the player wanted? someone is using their level 18 ability to get a bunch of unseen servants in a way that doesn't break the game. it's probably less powerful than the typical use of spamming shield, it's easy to counter (they have minimal impact, which means that "ignoring the servants entirely" is not really that different from the servants not being there in the first place), nothing in the spell even remotely suggests the servants becoming sentient could even be a possibility... you already control the world, you don't need to take over the PCs as well. it's the only thing they control, so you'd damn well better have an excellent reason why you're screwing with their actions, and the ability to carry around a bunch of torches and otherwise make a few minor things that they do a bit more convenient is not a remotely compelling reason.

Umm... Yes. Yes I would. And it would be tremendous fun for everyone. Full of hundreds of Rick and Morty references, probably a cameo appearance by characters suspiciously like the cartoon pair, and after the story arc was completed the spell would go back to working exactly as described in the book...except the unseen servants might mumble profanities afterward. However, if I were a PLAYER at a table with someone who did this I would not wait around for this type of shenanigans. They would find a way to keep up with the party, not slow down combat, and avoid overshadowing the other players or I would formally request the DM disallow this use. I guarantee I am not the only player that feels the same way. This is needlessly over complicated for so little useful gain. Plain and simple. I enjoy it as a thought exercise but when you start getting aggro when people point out the legitimate holes in your "plan", you are just ridiculous at this point.

EDIT: Also, the excessive(though legitimately allowed) use of a minor spell in the attempt to make it more powerful than it is has zero comparison to a standard use of a high level ability. However, I might just create a story arc when the fighter gets the second action surge. Probably something to dealing with the "stealing of time" to move faster. Why wouldn't I? A great story is a great story.

SharkForce

2017-07-07, 07:57 PM

Umm... Yes. Yes I would. And it would be tremendous fun for everyone. Full of hundreds of Rick and Morty references, probably a cameo appearance by characters suspiciously like the cartoon pair, and after the story arc was completed the spell would go back to working exactly as described in the book...except the unseen servants might mumble profanities afterward. However, if I were a PLAYER at a table with someone who did this I would not wait around for this type of shenanigans. They would find a way to keep up with the party, not slow down combat, and avoid overshadowing the other players or I would formally request the DM disallow this use. I guarantee I am not the only player that feels the same way. This is needlessly over complicated for so little useful gain. Plain and simple. I enjoy it as a thought exercise but when you start getting aggro when people point out the legitimate holes in your "plan", you are just ridiculous at this point.

EDIT: Also, the excessive(though legitimately allowed) use of a minor spell in the attempt to make it more powerful than it is has zero comparison to a standard use of a high level ability. However, I might just create a story arc when the fighter gets the second action surge. Probably something to dealing with the "stealing of time" to move faster. Why wouldn't I? A great story is a great story.

seriously? full blown panic over lots of expendable torch bearers? oh noes, that character can *gasp* interact with one extra object per turn as a bonus action! such clean, much broom! better nerf that before it gets out of hand, we all know everyone is desperate to multiclass into thief rogue for that massively powerful ability after all, and this is at least one tenth as good as that ability! too stronk for level 18!!!!one!!1!!

if you're concerned that unseen servants are becoming more important than your character, might i suggest you try demonstrating your superiority over them by moving more than 15 feet per round and taking actions other than only interacting with objects. i think you'll find that the human commoner which is used to describe the sorts of things they can do is, in fact, actually dramatically more powerful than the unseen servants... if you can't manage to shine brighter than an unseen servant as a level 18 character, i don't know what to say. you must have somehow found the one way to build your character for total ineffectiveness, because i'm fairly certain once you have a single hit die, at least one attribute higher than 11, and a background, you've already surpassed the unseen servant horde in pretty much every way, except in how expendable you are.