Making DnD a 5 stat system by Combining Strength and Constitution

[Mcdjangali]

Seems like Dex gets all the love since it's tied to essential categories such as; Dex saves, AC, initiative, acrobatics, finesse/Ranged weapons. But, strength doesn't get much love. IMO, Str and Con are very similar, enough so they could be combined and it could better balance out the game. Thoughts? How could this go wrong, broken, or OP for character design?

[JNAProductions]

Which edition?

[Mcdjangali]

Seems like Dex gets all the love since it's tied to essential categories such as; Dex saves, AC, initiative, acrobatics, finesse/Ranged weapons. But, strength doesn't get much love. IMO, Str and Con are very similar, enough so they could be combined and it could better balance out the game. Thoughts? How could this go wrong, broken, or OP for character design?


Which edition?

I guess 5e since it's what I been playing lately but there seems to be a similar issue in 3.5, and I started with 2nd but, I don't remember much of it except Thaco lol.

[JBPuffin]

Honestly? I can't think of anything wrong with this. Makes martials and half-casters less MAD, tanks love you forever and ever, and it balances kind of nicely with Dexterity's Agility+Coordination set up. Might need to try this sometime...

[nyee]

I actually think 5e closed the gap quite a bit. I think removing Initiative from Dexterity might be the only thing you need to do.

Maybe tying Initiative to your proficiency instead?

[nyee]

I will say that combining Str and Con is an interesting idea worth trying, though. I just worry about HP for dex characters with this system.

[Lalliman]

3.5 doesn't need it, Str is way superior to Dex in that one. For martials, that is.

That aside, it certainly makes thematic sense. It's kind of difficult to imagine a low Str / high Con character, and very difficult to imagine a high Str / low Con one. I run it this way in a homebrew system I have, which has only four stats: Strength, Agility, Mind and Charisma. But that one bears little similarity to D&D.

While it's true that Dex is generally the god stat, I don't think it's so much better that fusing Str and Con would be balanced. It would only be a small buff for casters, but a huge one for fighters, barbarians, paladins, and probably rangers and rogues too. We'll probably revert back to the 3.5 status, where Str is the god stat for all martials, even the ones that were designed to use Dex, and only casters can really justify raising Dex.

Also, imagine the thematic implications on character building. Con is already the "put at least a 14 in this" stat, and fusing it with Str is only going to make it more appealing. End result, all characters are inevitably jacked. If you want to dump Str for thematic reasons, you're screwing yourself big time, because you're also dumping Con in the process.

So yeah, you're going to need major rebalancing for this to work.

[Mcdjangali]

I think if it were combined and someone stat dumped Str/Con then one thing I would def change is that when rolling for hp, either from leveling up or recovering during a short rest, you ignore negative Modifiers.

So, Baalthizar the wizard has a 8 Str/Con and levels up. He rolls a 4 on a d6 so, his hp increase by 4 instead of 3. So, at least your getting your HD.

Strong characters have more muscle which means they have a thick/dense layer protecting their vitals and bones so it makes sense for them to have more hp than the Dex build. Also, it makes sense for even a nimble fighter to have a 12-14 in Str/Con as well because you really shouldn't fight dexterously and totally dump Str. It just doesn't make sense, at least not if your fighting in the thick of it. Yes, their muscle would be lean and wirey but they'd still have some muscle on them.

So yeah, let's have a swole party of adventurers. Lol

Maybe it's just because I'm thinking too much about min/maxing and I look at how MAD Str builds can be and just need to focus on the fun of the game and developing fun character concepts more.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A potential alternative is to shift all Con checks to Str, and replace Con-to-HP with a die-based bonus. Instead of getting dx+Con or dx+Str, instead you'd get dx+(x/2)-1 or thereabouts. So, say, your HD would become d6+2, d8+3, etc. (Or even d6 -> 5/level, d8 -> 7/level, etc). I kind of like the thought of doing something like that, honestly... Con is the one score that everyone needs to invest in, regardless of class or character concept, just because you need HP so much to live. Might as well divorce the concept from the mechanic, in this case.

[JBPuffin]

A potential alternative is to shift all Con checks to Str, and replace Con-to-HP with a die-based bonus. Instead of getting dx+Con or dx+Str, instead you'd get dx+(x/2)-1 or thereabouts. So, say, your HD would become d6+2, d8+3, etc. (Or even d6 -> 5/level, d8 -> 7/level, etc). I kind of like the thought of doing something like that, honestly... Con is the one score that everyone needs to invest in, regardless of class or character concept, just because you need HP so much to live. Might as well divorce the concept from the mechanic, in this case.

That would make a lot of sense, honestly.

[nyee]

A potential alternative is to shift all Con checks to Str, and replace Con-to-HP with a die-based bonus. Instead of getting dx+Con or dx+Str, instead you'd get dx+(x/2)-1 or thereabouts. So, say, your HD would become d6+2, d8+3, etc. (Or even d6 -> 5/level, d8 -> 7/level, etc). I kind of like the thought of doing something like that, honestly... Con is the one score that everyone needs to invest in, regardless of class or character concept, just because you need HP so much to live. Might as well divorce the concept from the mechanic, in this case.

The hp thing was my biggest concern, but this makes sense. I like this mechanic for hp

[Nifft]

One cool thing 4e did was to derive Fort / Ref / Will from multiple stats, so you used whichever stat was highest.

That meant you didn't necessarily need Con / Dex / Wis; if you had a high Int, for example, you could dump Dex.


You could expand that to other aspects of the system.



Stat
Str
Dex
Con
Int
Wis
Cha


HP


X


X


Initiative

X

X




Fort Save
X

X





Reflex Save
X
X






Will Save




X
X


AC

X


X



Skill Points



X





Con/Cha to HP: implacable body vs. implacable ego.

Dex/Str to Reflex: throwing yourself out of the way quicker vs. throwing yourself harder.
Str/Con to Fort: enduring stronger vs. enduring tougher.
Wis/Cha to Will: implacable sense of reality vs. implacable ego.
Dex/Wis to AC: dodging an attack quickly vs. reading your foe's intentions. Armor penalties still apply, of course.

Dex/Int to Initiative: body reacts before thinking vs. mind thinking very quickly.

In this setup, Wisdom includes situational awareness, while Intelligence includes quick thinking -- these are already what the system is supposed to represent, and the above just adds more mechanical value to these aspects. Strength represents athleticism in addition to raw might, so it overlaps with both Dex and Con.

[FreddyNoNose]

Why not have one stat that encompasses everything?

[Nifft]

Why not have one stat that encompasses everything?

We do, it's called "Level".

The thing is, for individual rolls, we like to adjust that one stat by some additional variable. That's what we're discussing in this thread.

[FreddyNoNose]

We do, it's called "Level".

The thing is, for individual rolls, we like to adjust that one stat by some additional variable. That's what we're discussing in this thread.

No because you have strength and constitution and this silly thread. Just have the stat stat and add some points when you level up.

[Absol197]

Fantasy Flight's Star Wars RPG does just this. The stat is called Brawn, and it works quite well with just one stat representing physical toughness, another representing speed and agility.

However, the posters above do have a point - that system was created with this in mind, and so considerations of balance were made assuming it to be the case. D&D, regardless of edition, was not designed that way, so this could have some unexpected consequences.

Ray of enervation, for instance (I believe; I haven't done D&D-based things for quite some time) applies a penalty to Strength. When all that does is reduce carrying capacity and brute-strength melee attacks/damage, that's okay. But when it's also reducing your Fort saves and hp, that's a bit stronger than intended.

[Grod_The_Giant]

No because you have strength and constitution and this silly thread. Just have the stat stat and add some points when you level up.
Um, I'm not sure where you're pulling that sort of exaggeration from, but... no, you absolutely can have systems without stats. You can do it pretty easily in 5e, honestly-- just use Proficiency+1 (max 5) in place of stats for class features and any checks/damage rolls you're proficient in, and always take feats instead of ASIs. Boom; that's about 95% of everything you need to care about right there. Possibly break off a "Brawn" skill from the rest of Athletics.

Or you can go a little farther and polish things. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503455-5e-Without-Ability-Scores-skills-Skills-Skills)

[FreddyNoNose]

Um, I'm not sure where you're pulling that sort of exaggeration from, but... no, you absolutely can have systems without stats. You can do it pretty easily in 5e, honestly-- just use Proficiency+1 (max 5) in place of stats for class features and any checks/damage rolls you're proficient in, and always take feats instead of ASIs. Boom; that's about 95% of everything you need to care about right there. Possibly break off a "Brawn" skill from the rest of Athletics.

Or you can go a little farther and polish things. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503455-5e-Without-Ability-Scores-skills-Skills-Skills)

It was on purpose. To point out that one stat isn't interesting so perhaps taking away STR isn't adding any benefit.

[Nifft]

Um, I'm not sure where you're pulling that sort of exaggeration from, but... no, you absolutely can have systems without stats. You can do it pretty easily in 5e, honestly-- just use Proficiency+1 (max 5) in place of stats for class features and any checks/damage rolls you're proficient in, and always take feats instead of ASIs. Boom; that's about 95% of everything you need to care about right there. Possibly break off a "Brawn" skill from the rest of Athletics.

Or you can go a little farther and polish things. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503455-5e-Without-Ability-Scores-skills-Skills-Skills)

That's a really interesting system.

It loses some nuance, but I bet that could be fixed with trade-off traits.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It was on purpose. To point out that one stat isn't interesting so perhaps taking away STR isn't adding any benefit.
There's a lot of ground between "five stats" and "one stat," dude. Also, the stat being discussed is Con, which

Has a lot of conceptual overlap with Str (both represent raw physical power).
Is almost entirely passive-- you can't really do anything with high Con, not in the same way that high Str or Dex work. It pretty much entirely applies to things you didn't choose to roll-- saves, endurance checks, that sort of thing.
Is weirdly obligatory to all character archetypes. No matter what, you have to put a good score in Con, or else you'll just... not function. Frontliners will go splat, spellcasters will lose their Concentration spells and go splat... it's an ability tax.
Ultimately, it just... doesn't do much to define a character, which-- after all-- is the whole point of having Abilities. You're "tough?" You're an adventurer; you're all "tough." And you have hit dice that say pretty much the same thing.



That's a really interesting system.

It loses some nuance, but I bet that could be fixed with trade-off traits.
Thanks! I actually already have an option for that-- you can pick up to two nonproficient skills and take a -2 penalty to them, and get an extra half-proficiency in return for each tradeoff.