Druid/Monk Character Help

[SMac8988]

Hello players and DMs alike. I was looking for advice and assistance with a character I will be starting as a villian for the game I am dming and possibly playing for an up coming campaign if it tests well.

I am thinking a Duegar Moon druid/Shadow monk.

As a dm, and the dm of the other game, have agreed that unarmored works for wildshape, and natural weapons are unarmed.

Level breakdown I was thinking, 6 druid and 14 shadow monk. Considering possible four elements, if your able to use the ki casting in beast shape. A wolf flipping and sending a whip of fire just seems awesomely cininamatic.

Figure Duregar could be cool for the enlarge effect, bump up damage a bit, but also just be a high size wolf/sabertooth.

Any advice on this or anything I should look out for. The casting from the druid side I was going to focus on more utility stuff. I know it's not the most optimal build of course.

[dejarnjc]

Hello players and DMs alike. I was looking for advice and assistance with a character I will be starting as a villian for the game I am dming and possibly playing for an up coming campaign if it tests well.

I am thinking a Duegar Moon druid/Shadow monk.

As a dm, and the dm of the other game, have agreed that unarmored works for wildshape, and natural weapons are unarmed.

Level breakdown I was thinking, 6 druid and 14 shadow monk. Considering possible four elements, if your able to use the ki casting in beast shape. A wolf flipping and sending a whip of fire just seems awesomely cininamatic.

Figure Duregar could be cool for the enlarge effect, bump up damage a bit, but also just be a high size wolf/sabertooth.

Any advice on this or anything I should look out for. The casting from the druid side I was going to focus on more utility stuff. I know it's not the most optimal build of course.


I get that you're handwaving a lot restrictions, which is fine IMO since this is hardly an optimal build regardless, but keep in mind that the Shadow Arts spells that a Shadowmonk can cast have verbal and/or somatic components so you would not be able to cast them while wildshaped.

Also, keep in mind that you'll be using the beasts' physical ability scores whenever you're wildshaped. So the wolf's DEX bonus would apply to your "martial arts" attack and not your DEX bonus.


Also, keep in mind that Extra Attack and a beast's multi-attack feature are two different things and do not stack RAW, so you'll want to figure out how to adjudicate that eventually.

[SMac8988]

I get that you're handwaving a lot restrictions, which is fine IMO since this is hardly an optimal build regardless, but keep in mind that the Shadow Arts spells that a Shadowmonk can cast have verbal and/or somatic components so you would not be able to

Also, keep in mind that you'll be using the beasts' physical ability scores whenever you're wildshaped. So the wolf's DEX bonus would apply to your "martial arts" attack and not your DEX bonus.


Also, keep in mind that Extra Attack and a beast's multi-attack feature are two different things and do not stack RAW, so you'll want to figure out how to adjudicate that eventually.

I actually did not know that about the shadow monk ability, and I am away from my books so I couldn't look into it. That may sway me more towards four elements.

What about that shadow dive ability?

I am aware of the dex thing, and was looking into beasts with high natural dex scores.

I figures if I was a dire wolf, whom only gets one bite attack, I could bite twice with multi attack, and then flurry potentionally. I'll have to look at it more, now that I'm looking at numbers that is a bit of damage.

Other question is; does the dc on trip from the wolf bite go up since my prof is higher than 2?

[nickl_2000]

I actually did not know that about the shadow monk ability, and I am away from my books so I couldn't look into it. That may sway me more towards four elements.

I am aware of the dex thing, and was looking into beasts with high natural dex scores.

I figures if I was a dire wolf, whom only gets one bite attack, I could bite twice with multi attack, and then flurry potentionally. I'll have to look at it more, now that I'm looking at numbers that is a bit of damage.

Other question is; does the dc on trip from the wolf bite go up since my prof is higher than 2?

For the 4 elements monk you need to choose carefully, the abilities that allow you to cast spells also require you to verbal and somatic components. Also the dreugar enlarge (nor the High Elf Cantrip or the other elf Misty Step) won't be allowed in wildshape either (it can be cast beforehand and concentration kept though as you transform). JC made it very clear in the Dragon Talk podcast that you flat out cannot cast magic in Wild Shape form until you hit level 18 Druid. Basically he describes it as a Druid using all his magic to turn into that Wildshape and there isn't enough left to cast more.



The DC for the trip attack is part of the stat block of the Wolf, you use the stat block. Just as the attack bonus doesn't increase in the wild shape form as you get higher levels.

Here are the situations where you use your Druid stats in Wild Shape
Mental Stats (Wisdom, Charisma, and Intellegence)
Saves (you can choose which save you take, the animals or the druids)

[SMac8988]

For the 4 elements monk you need to choose carefully, the abilities that allow you to cast spells also require you to verbal and somatic components. Also the dreugar enlarge (nor the High Elf Cantrip or the other elf Misty Step) won't be allowed in wildshape either (it can be cast beforehand and concentration kept though as you transform). JC made it very clear in the Dragon Talk podcast that you flat out cannot cast magic in Wild Shape form until you hit level 18 Druid. Basically he describes it as a Druid using all his magic to turn into that Wildshape and there isn't enough left to cast more.



The DC for the trip attack is part of the stat block of the Wolf, you use the stat block. Just as the attack bonus doesn't increase in the wild shape form as you get higher levels.

Here are the situations where you use your Druid stats in Wild Shape
Mental Stats (Wisdom, Charisma, and Intellegence)
Saves (you can choose which save you take, the animals or the druids)

Is the shadow dive ability of the shadow monk use able while in beast form?

My idea was to cast enlarge first then shift, like as my whole turn one on a big fight.

[nickl_2000]

Is the shadow dive ability of the shadow monk use able while in beast form?

My idea was to cast enlarge first then shift, like as my whole turn one on a big fight.

If you mean the shadow movement that gives advantage on he next attack, yes it will work while wheats shaped

[SMac8988]

Now I'm concerned. Am I going to fall off hard in later levels where the 47 hp on a dire word means nothing?

The character will be a villian. But I may play him in rise of Tiamat and I know that's a potentionally level 20 campaign. How badly outshines would I be here?

[nickl_2000]

Now I'm concerned. Am I going to fall off hard in later levels where the 47 hp on a dire word means nothing?

The character will be a villian. But I may play him in rise of Tiamat and I know that's a potentionally level 20 campaign. How badly outshines would I be here?

If you continue with using the Dire Wolf through you entire level progression, you are going to get destroyed at higher levels. Moon Druids need to keep gettin higher CR beast forms to keep up, and it still struggles at some points. Most Moon Druid builds will only suggest 1 level and in monk to get the unarmored defense for this very purpose. You could dip a few levels into Barbarian instead to get rage and constitution defense if you like.

However, it is my personal opinion that Moon Druids that are going to spent most the time in Beast shape should stay single class. Others will disagree though.


shadow monks multi class really well with Rogues getting advantage and therefore sneak attack every round. Some others also like a 2 level dip into Druid for cantrips, some healing, and scouting abilities in wildshape.

[SMac8988]

If you continue with using the Dire Wolf through you entire level progression, you are going to get destroyed at higher levels. Moon Druids need to keep gettin higher CR beast forms to keep up, and it still struggles at some points. Most Moon Druid builds will only suggest 1 level and in monk to get the unarmored defense for this very purpose. You could dip a few levels into Barbarian instead to get rage and constitution defense if you like.

However, it is my personal opinion that Moon Druids that are going to spent most the time in Beast shape should stay single class. Others will disagree though.


shadow monks multi class really well with Rogues getting advantage and therefore sneak attack every round. Some others also like a 2 level dip into Druid for cantrips, some healing, and scouting abilities in wildshape.

I like the idea of rogue but concerned that's a little to much spreading.

I like the idea of a giant wolf kicking fire, with huge move speed. I know it's not the best but would I be that far behind?

[nickl_2000]

I like the idea of rogue but concerned that's a little to much spreading.

I like the idea of a giant wolf kicking fire, with huge move speed. I know it's not the best but would I be that far behind?

Look at the damage output of the dire wolf if you hit. Compare it to the damage output of a giant elk, giant constrictor snake, elephant, or some of the other critters. You could make it work possibly, but you are causing yourself to fall behind

[nickl_2000]

Actually let me make a suggestion. It sounds like you have a fairly permissive DM. Why not ask if you can homebrew a shapeshifter wolf or awakened wolf and just play as a straight monk.

You would still get you character idea and would still keep up with other PCs

[SMac8988]

Actually let me make a suggestion. It sounds like you have a fairly permissive DM. Why not ask if you can homebrew a shapeshifter wolf or awakened wolf and just play as a straight monk.

You would still get you character idea and would still keep up with other PCs

I actually like that idea. Hmm I'd have to build it out and all but could be fun

[Esprit15]

Actually let me make a suggestion. It sounds like you have a fairly permissive DM. Why not ask if you can homebrew a shapeshifter wolf or awakened wolf and just play as a straight monk.

You would still get you character idea and would still keep up with other PCs

The shapeshifter wolf has potential. A sort of man-wolf. Maybe even make it a sort of curse that he was afflicted with, due to an encounter with another man-wolf. The name needs work, though. There's gotta be something that rolls off the tongue better.

[nickl_2000]

The shapeshifter wolf has potential. A sort of man-wolf. Maybe even make it a sort of curse that he was afflicted with, due to an encounter with another man-wolf. The name needs work, though. There's gotta be something that rolls off the tongue better.

Lol, where's is the name of that wolf? Where wolf?

I actually avoided werewolves on purpose, they have a mess of resistances and abilities that would make the PC to powerful. Hence a normal shifter that has a wolf form, since there is a shifter race that could be re-fluffed

[SMac8988]

If I do 2 levels of druid, for support spells and animals for scouting. The focus on shadow monk and rogue, campaign is set to go to level 20, how should I split my levels?

[nickl_2000]

If I do 2 levels of druid, for support spells and animals for scouting. The focus on shadow monk and rogue, campaign is set to go to level 20, how should I split my levels?

I don't have books close, but probably 6 monk, 2 Druid, 12 rogue. You should look at the breakpoints yourself though

[SMac8988]

I don't have books close, but probably 6 monk, 2 Druid, 12 rogue. You should look at the breakpoints yourself though

I will when I can. I'm stuck at work till sunday, so away from my books as of now. And my party is set to play Sunday so if this is to be my villian for the night I am trying to get him planned out.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Have you considered Sunsoul Monk/Moon Druid? Shoot white hot fiery suns out of your mouth as a wolf.

[SMac8988]

Have you considered Sunsoul Monk/Moon Druid? Shoot white hot fiery suns out of your mouth as a wolf.

I have. It had crossed my mind a few times. Lol seems pretty great

[Citan]

Hello players and DMs alike. I was looking for advice and assistance with a character I will be starting as a villian for the game I am dming and possibly playing for an up coming campaign if it tests well.

I am thinking a Duegar Moon druid/Shadow monk.

As a dm, and the dm of the other game, have agreed that unarmored works for wildshape, and natural weapons are unarmed.

Level breakdown I was thinking, 6 druid and 14 shadow monk. Considering possible four elements, if your able to use the ki casting in beast shape. A wolf flipping and sending a whip of fire just seems awesomely cininamatic.

Figure Duregar could be cool for the enlarge effect, bump up damage a bit, but also just be a high size wolf/sabertooth.

Any advice on this or anything I should look out for. The casting from the druid side I was going to focus on more utility stuff. I know it's not the most optimal build of course.
Hi!

If you are set on these subclasses for your character concept, go for it. Just know that you will usually have to cast any spell you want (whether as Monk or Druid) before Wild Shaping (unless you pick Warcaster, but even that won't help for spells with Verbal components).

Also note that, if DM agrees that your Monk's speed bonus stacks on any natural speed the beast form has, you could dip in Rogue to become an expert at Grappling (or just cast Enhance Ability, but it takes an action) and maybe grab Cunning Action, then spend time as a Giant Eagle grappling enemies, flying up in the air (with Dodge as a bonus action if many archers around, otherwise Dash to go even further) then releasing them, for a probable average around 7d6 if you Dash (considering the move you spend to reach enemy in the first place, and a prebuff Longstrider).
Note that this tactic would work better as a Land Druid with Haste, but much much later so not that interesting.
If you have any ally with Haste though, you could easily deal up to 10d6 damage per turn from level 6 onwards (not including the normal attacks): Rogue 2 / Moon Druid 2 / Monk 2 with Haste stacked on Longstrider would end with flying speed of (60+10+10)*2 = 160 feet speed before even Dashing from Haste or Cunning Action (or both). Largely enough to reach a 20d6 falling damage with proper Dashing involved. Or you could just cast Spike Growth before and fly just above the spikes so only the grappled enemy takes damage (can deal very very nasty amount of damage too).
This is obviously a niche trick though, not an "all-career long", always usable one (mainly because you are very frail in Giant Eagle form, so unless you buff yourself this would just become a suicidal tactic soon enough -enemies will adapt and be ready to unleash a hail of arrows or magical bolts soon enough). :)
But Rogues' levels are never wasted: having Cunning Action eats much less in your Ki pool (free Dash/Disengage) and also adds Hide to the bonus action capabbilities, never minding extra skills and Expertise. So it's really a nice investment, although you do lose Diamond Soul as a capstone. And that would be hard.

Otherwise, I'd suggest...

1. Moon Druid / 4 Elements, with a 10/10 final split: although sadly the Fangs of the Fire Snake requires Attack action, which you don't have while Wild Shape, by RAW you can use Elemental Attunement, Fist (lol) of the Unbroken Air, Shape the Flowing River and Water Whip. You also get Burning Hands for when out of Wild Shape. And this goes well together thematically, especially when you get Elemental Forms.

2. Moon Druid 6 / Long Death Monk 14: you will end tough as nails, compensating the "lower form" of your Wild Shape. And Fear as an action can be easily fluffed (as a powerful roar brimming with killing intent for example) and don't require anything special either, so totally works while under beast form (unless I forgot something, AFB for now, but I don't think so). Will bolster your defenses as well as your allies, provides a great option when just attacking seems not the best tactic.

3. Land Druid 6 / Shadow Monk 14: because getting Haste or Mirror Image would help you much, or you can make interesting tricks with Spike Growth or Plant Growth.
Especially if your DM agrees that if you are grappling someone when you use Shadow Step, the grapple holds and it's taken with you (absolutely no clear idea on what RAW/RAI would be here).


Have you considered Sunsoul Monk/Moon Druid? Shoot white hot fiery suns out of your mouth as a wolf.
Nice idea too. ;)

[SMac8988]

Moon Druid 6 / Long Death Monk 14: you will end tough as nails, compensating the "lower form" of your Wild Shape. And Fear as an action can be easily fluffed (as a powerful roar brimming with killing intent for example) and don't require anything special either, so totally works while under beast form (unless I forgot something, AFB for now, but I don't think so). Will bolster your defenses as well as your allies, provides a great option when just attacking seems not the best tactic.

I didn't even look into this as an idea. I absolutely love this. Gives me a bit of tank to my beasts with the temp hit points, and the fear can be a huge thing. If my speed all stacks, I could even use the fear to keep people from getting away by dashing ahead of them as a wolf.

My question is. Could the anti death for a ki work for my beast forms? Like when the beast form is reduced to 0, expend a ki point to keep the form up?

Also if I do duregar, and get to level 6 drui, which gives me the huge sized Large Elk, if I enlarge prior to wild shaping, would I be a gargantuan sized elk? Because then I could potentially use the charge ability on like dragons and **** right?

[Citan]

I didn't even look into this as an idea. I absolutely love this. Gives me a bit of tank to my beasts with the temp hit points, and the fear can be a huge thing. If my speed all stacks, I could even use the fear to keep people from getting away by dashing ahead of them as a wolf.

My question is. Could the anti death for a ki work for my beast forms? Like when the beast form is reduced to 0, expend a ki point to keep the form up?

Also if I do duregar, and get to level 6 drui, which gives me the huge sized Large Elk, if I enlarge prior to wild shaping, would I be a gargantuan sized elk? Because then I could potentially use the charge ability on like dragons and **** right?
Honestly, about your first question, I'd say it's 100% DM ruling territory. Not sure what RAI would be, but by RAW it may be valid. It basically depends on whether your DM would consider that beast form is "physically able to do so". (After further thought, I'd say in fact it's the same problem with the Long Death's Fear ability. Can't check the wording now to see whether it would be tied or not with the ability to speak an understandable language. If so, your DM may invalid it when Wild Shaped. Otherwise, no problem).

TBH, as a DM I would probably rule no "in general". Simply because it's an ability that is extremely tied with Monk's idea of mastering his own body. Also fluff text says "escape your own death", and getting to 0 as Wild Shape is not being down and getting close to death, it's just suffering enough damage for a "magical effect" to end. I think that would probably be RAI too, but not sure.
Now, for someone like you who would stress that his character actually feels like living as a beast and trying to stay Wild Shape as often and long as possible, I would totally allow it per ROC (also, considering the maximum shapes you would reach, which are overall very "weak" on survival side, I don't see how it could cause any balance problems so...).

Now for the second question: I'd rule "no" without as much hesitation as far as RAW is concerned. When you cast the Enlarge spell, you affect your current shape, which is your true body. Wild Shape says "you assume the shape of a creature" but stresses just after that "your game statistics are replaced by the creature" although you keep concentration.
Imo considering that "the Enlarge spell now affects your new form" would be cheesy and weird.
BUT, I'm not saying I hold the truth here. It may be worth asking about this interaction in the RAW thread, or at least waiting for other people's opinions.
Not sure how I would rule as a DM honestly, because I fail to see how much (or not) this affects your offensive potential.

[SMac8988]

Honestly, about your first question, I'd say it's 100% DM ruling territory. Not sure what RAI would be, but by RAW it may be valid. It basically depends on whether your DM would consider that beast form is "physically able to do so". (After further thought, I'd say in fact it's the same problem with the Long Death's Fear ability. Can't check the wording now to see whether it would be tied or not with the ability to speak an understandable language. If so, your DM may invalid it when Wild Shaped. Otherwise, no problem).

TBH, as a DM I would probably rule no "in general". Simply because it's an ability that is extremely tied with Monk's idea of mastering his own body. Also fluff text says "escape your own death", and getting to 0 as Wild Shape is not being down and getting close to death, it's just suffering enough damage for a "magical effect" to end. I think that would probably be RAI too, but not sure.
Now, for someone like you who would stress that his character actually feels like living as a beast and trying to stay Wild Shape as often and long as possible, I would totally allow it per ROC (also, considering the maximum shapes you would reach, which are overall very "weak" on survival side, I don't see how it could cause any balance problems so...).

My thought was it would allow me tk maintain since my beasts are kind of on the weaker side. I'll have to look into the wording some and see what all it says. I can see both sides, since it isn't really death it doesn't really work out. Just a thought on it.


Now for the second question: I'd rule "no" without as much hesitation as far as RAW is concerned. When you cast the Enlarge spell, you affect your current shape, which is your true body. Wild Shape says "you assume the shape of a creature" but stresses just after that "your game statistics are replaced by the creature" although you keep concentration.
Imo considering that "the Enlarge spell now affects your new form" would be cheesy and weird.
BUT, I'm not saying I hold the truth here. It may be worth asking about this interaction in the RAW thread, or at least waiting for other people's opinions.
Not sure how I would rule as a DM honestly, because I fail to see how much (or not) this affects your offensive potential.

That makes sense as well. I could see not allowing it since the spell is cast on my dwarf form not the beast shape form. I'll have to ask my dm about that and see what other people here say.

Thanks for the help!