I made you all a class: The Slayer!

[TheUser]

The Slayer is my attempt at a revival of a martial class/skill specialist hybrid. Currently we have many martial/caster hybrids like paladins and rangers that give strong combat and utility options, and there are even caster/skill specialist hybrids like arcane tricksters and bards. But currently no martial/skill specialist hybrid exists in 5th edition so I rectified that.

The Slayer has a more offensive nature with medium armor proficiency (not shields) and extra attack with a scaled back version of sneak attack; it isn't as easy to trigger but compatible with a greater range of weapons getting half as much damage per level. It also has some skill expertise but not as focused skill mastery or damage absorption as the rogue. There are a few borrowed abilities that we already see across multiple classes (Evasion) and really excellent archetypes to hone in on some neat niches. The class is also designed around not using shields and having it's core feature incompatible with spell concentration or raging.

Numbers wise it puts out less damage than most of the caster/martial hybrids when those classes buff themselves with their strong spells but it does more consistent damage without.

The Archetypes included are:

The Stalker: a stealth focused hunter/scout
The Inquisitor: a wizard slayer with strong anti-magic capabilities
The Brawler: a strength focused unarmed brawler that utilizes grapples and shoves



You can view and download the class for free through this link:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxHRu80oFd2iVGJCbWlldFRpeTg

And if you think it's worthy of some IRL gold you can donate:
http://www.dmsguild.com/product/215327/The-Slayer

[alchahest]

I'm at work but definitely looking forward to checking this out when I get home, the description sounds fun!

[Sariel Vailo]

Looks very fun but one question why no dueling as a fighting style.

[TheUser]

Looks very fun but one question why no dueling as a fighting style.

No shield proficiency

Edit: I also had no idea how to improve it at level 10

[Sariel Vailo]

No shield proficiency

Edit: I also had no idea how to improve it at level 10

I dont use a shield while dueling its just a nice damge buff i actualy use a feat defensive duelist. As play my characters. As for improving it dont reinvemt the wheel at level 10 change plus2 to plus 3or four.or make it gain a you can now use great weapons with one hand it now gains the versatile property and loses a damge die id used one handed or if usesd apropriately its normal damage dice.

[JackPhoenix]

No shield proficiency

Edit: I also had no idea how to improve it at level 10

While the ability to have extra AC from shield is the biggest advantage of Dueling FS, it's not required. Depends on what do you want to do with the FS, I suggest giving the option to use the free hand for something... BA grapple, shove or use object would be nice (the last one could be used to draw additional throwing weapons, for example)

[TheUser]

While the ability to have extra AC from shield is the biggest advantage of Dueling FS, it's not required. Depends on what do you want to do with the FS, I suggest giving the option to use the free hand for something... BA grapple, shove or use object would be nice (the last one could be used to draw additional throwing weapons, for example)
This is already baked into the brawler archetype

[JackPhoenix]

This is already baked into the brawler archetype

Right... haven't read the archetypes, just glanced at the class and what Improved FS does.

[GlenSmash!]

All in all it look like a fine way of pulling from a few existing archetypes to make a nonmagical class. I don't see anything that would be outright broken. My minor complaint, and it's more specific to me than anything you've done, is that I like Defense Fighting style even on my Great weapon Characters, which I couldn't do with this class.

If I were to use it in my games I would add Defense, and for Improved Fighting Style, have it ignore Stealth Disadvantage from Armor (useful on slayers with Medium Armor, and inquisitors that get Heavy Armor).

All in all it seems nicely done to me.

[TheUser]

All in all it look like a fine way of pulling from a few existing archetypes to make a nonmagical class. I don't see anything that would be outright broken. My minor complaint, and it's more specific to me than anything you've done, is that I like Defense Fighting style even on my Great weapon Characters, which I couldn't do with this class.

If I were to use it in my games I would add Defense, and for Improved Fighting Style, have it ignore Stealth Disadvantage from Armor (useful on slayers with Medium Armor, and inquisitors that get Heavy Armor).

All in all it seems nicely done to me.

Thanks for the feedback!

I think that's a great idea but my biggest goal was to never make feats redundant and this suggestion in particular would make medium armor master a very poor choice of feats.

It is meant to be more of an offensive martial class so having defense as a fighting style didn't feel right to me either.

You might want to reconsider great weapon fighter for this class since the improvement at level 10 is -very- impactful. Re-rolling 1's and 2's on your Vulnerable Foe dice is pretty sweet; If you had a Great Sword swinging 2 attacks at level 10 with Vulnerable Foe that'd be 7d6 where you can re-roll the 1's and 2's!

[GlenSmash!]

Thanks for the feedback!

I think that's a great idea but my biggest goal was to never make feats redundant and this suggestion in particular would make medium armor master a very poor choice of feats.

It is meant to be more of an offensive martial class so having defense as a fighting style didn't feel right to me either.

You might want to reconsider great weapon fighter for this class since the improvement at level 10 is -very- impactful. Re-rolling 1's and 2's on your Vulnerable Foe dice is pretty sweet; If you had a Great Sword swinging 2 attacks at level 10 with Vulnerable Foe that'd be 7d6 where you can re-roll the 1's and 2's!

I'll consider it, but full disclosure, I have a blanket dislikes for rerolls including things like GWF and the Lucky Feat. Too many of them starts to slow down the game.

Like I said, my problem not yours.

[Vaz]

1; no need to state that you don't get a proficiency in shields. Simply not giving shield proficiency should be obvious enough you don't have Shield proficiency.

2; In the fluff, you state a Half-Orc in Platemail (Heavy Armour) shrugs off the spell, but then don't give Heavy Armour Prof. Technically can get it elsewhere, but seems misleading.

3; Why no duelling fighting style? I know this was asked earlier, but I do not think that the answer of "no shield" is particularly satisfactory, for the simple reason that there's no reason to Einhander style. I was more surprised if anything, that Duelling didn't preclude the use of the Shield. There's also nothing to stop it from dipping a Shield prof class either.

4; Obviously not had chance to playtest. The Slayer Dice feels off, however. 21d8 Superiority Dice at 11th level seems OTT. I'd remove Rapid Recovery and just give it a number equal to Class Level, recovering 4 at level 20, like Sorcery Points.

5; I wouldn't reference Sneak Attack at all, you're just confusing things. Once per turn, you may add the bonus damage to an attack you have advantage with is simple and to the point.

6; Rapid Recovery basically means that you can spend one dice every round in combat.

7; Improved Fighting Style doesn't really feel "Slayery". That sounds more like what a particular weapon focused character is. Improved Fighting Style dilutes the flavour. Also, Great Weapon Fighting already includes any extra dice RAW. It should be up to the table who run the game rather than adding an additional non-benefit. The wording is also reasonably clunky to prevent additional fighting styles.

8; 4+d8 Initiative on a Dextrous class already? Nah.

Not going to get much further, because there's a lot of things in here that just feel like it's stacking too much all in one. Good effort though, it looks reasonably polished.

[TheUser]

1; no need to state that you don't get a proficiency in shields. Simply not giving shield proficiency should be obvious enough you don't have Shield proficiency.

2; In the fluff, you state a Half-Orc in Platemail (Heavy Armour) shrugs off the spell, but then don't give Heavy Armour Prof. Technically can get it elsewhere, but seems misleading.

3; Why no duelling fighting style? I know this was asked earlier, but I do not think that the answer of "no shield" is particularly satisfactory, for the simple reason that there's no reason to Einhander style. I was more surprised if anything, that Duelling didn't preclude the use of the Shield. There's also nothing to stop it from dipping a Shield prof class either.

4; Obviously not had chance to playtest. The Slayer Dice feels off, however. 21d8 Superiority Dice at 11th level seems OTT. I'd remove Rapid Recovery and just give it a number equal to Class Level, recovering 4 at level 20, like Sorcery Points.

5; I wouldn't reference Sneak Attack at all, you're just confusing things. Once per turn, you may add the bonus damage to an attack you have advantage with is simple and to the point.

6; Rapid Recovery basically means that you can spend one dice every round in combat.

7; Improved Fighting Style doesn't really feel "Slayery". That sounds more like what a particular weapon focused character is. Improved Fighting Style dilutes the flavour. Also, Great Weapon Fighting already includes any extra dice RAW. It should be up to the table who run the game rather than adding an additional non-benefit. The wording is also reasonably clunky to prevent additional fighting styles.

8; 4+d8 Initiative on a Dextrous class already? Nah.

Not going to get much further, because there's a lot of things in here that just feel like it's stacking too much all in one. Good effort though, it looks reasonably polished.

1. I state it because people miss things like...

2. Heavy Armor is given to inquisitors

3. Was answered

4. 21d8? Where are you getting this? At level 11 it's 6d8.

5. Sneak attack is referenced because people need to know that it's similar but not entirely the same. As seen above, people have trouble reading things.

6. Rapid Recovery is put in to avoid multi-class abuse; it operates on very similiar levels to battlemaster's maneuver dice so I don't see how you're complaining when something very similar exists. Slayer dice are meant to be used frequently like this, they are limited to once per turn so as to give a limiter on -how- you spend them (unlike battlemaster dice).

7. Using weapons to kill people isn't "Slayery"? Iconically, it's always been about physically slaying things... As for Great Weapon Fighter it was re-written in this class guide to only include weapon dice (literacy ftw). Jeremy Crawford already made a RAI ruling on how GWF should operate this expands the it to be improved at level 10.

8. I would make an attempt to playtest it before you bash it. The initiative thing is cutting into your resource. Look at Barbarians they get advantage on initiative which is like getting +5 and can't be surprised. You'd think this is somewhat close no?

[Vaz]

1. Like you missed the bit where I didn't go further because I was commenting on the main class.

2. Cool.

3. Unsatisfactorily.

4. Gaze must have slipped. 6d8, 3 rests = 18d8 over a day.

5. No, it doesn't. Vow of Emnity doesn't reference reckless attack.1

6. It's hardly multiclass abuse by having it limited to long rest in accordance with your Class Level.

7. No. Slaying people is slayery. Improved Fighting Style is Fightery. Notice something a Fighter doesn't, but possibly should have. Also, let players and tables choose whether to use the RAI if they wish. Your much vaunted literacy missed that point. I know Jeremy Crawford stated the RAI is the opposite. A player running a RAW DM shouldn't be penalised by using your homebrew class in comparison to any other class. Or what's stopping them multiclassing Fighter for GWF and getting access to it? Literacy, **** yeah.

8. I appreciate the comment over "I should playtest". Yeah, true. But I don't need to playtest to see Lore Wizard is broken, and 4 Elements Monk sucks balls. Your resource cost is nigh irrelevant; you have enough at this level that you're able to burn one on pretty much every round of combat. It's like a 1st level spell slot for a Wizard having access to a spell for +5 Initiative.

Hey man, you do you. It's not for me, and I don't think you're too keen on criticism, so have fun!

[WaggleDagger]

Hey dude, this class is freaking rad. Love it!

[Hypersmith]

I think it's cool! Wish threads over on the homebrew forum were this active.

[Sidson]

Hi. First of all - I love the concept of this class. It has a lot of flavor and should fill the unoccupied role.

But I have many questions and suggestions. I will divide them into core class and archetypes.

Core Slayer
1. Slayer Dice is awesome idea and restrictions are reasonable.
2. Vulnerable Foe - Sneak Attack mentions should be erased. They don't give any new information.
3. Does using Slayer Dice prevent from concentrating on spells this round?
4. Improved Fighting Style - this is seriously overpowered:
- Archery - cancelling disadvantage would be enough. Giving advantage is too much.
- GWF - this in on average about +10 to damage with no cost.
- TWF - so I get free Extra Attack with offhand and can get another one with bonus action? And I add modifier from TWF (not improved) to all attacks? Just wow.
5. Improved Fighting Style is to fightery to Slayer. I propose giving him e.g.
Bloody Mess - you are fearsome warrior and each strike of your weapon makes everyone around you scared. When you knock prone or incapacitate enemy with weapon attack you can inspire fear in the nearest enemy (Wisdom Save = 8+your proficiency bonus+your Charisma modifier).
6. Suprising Agility - I can make my AC increase for avarage of 4-6 points and deal additional damage without advantage on the cost of one Slayer Dice? Now Slayer starts being tanky?
7. Hardened Soul - excuse me? Every save? What is the idea behind this class? Being ablr to deal huge amount of damage wile being HP and AC tanky plus being immune to control magic?
8. Penetrating Strike - in my opinion it is getting too powerful. I can make this kind of attack with main hand and offhand, add my bonus damage, deal half or more damage and laugh in the face of every AC tank? I know it is 17th level but come on. Isn't it too much?
9. Critical Focus - nice capstone. I like it very much. But it should be restricted to not use this with Penetrating Strike.

Stalker
1. Crippling Strike - why Strenght save?
2. Crippling Strike - does making a save while prone makes me stand up?
3. Hide in Plain Sight - it is quite nice ability, but it feels somewhat broken. Its effect does not correspond with the name. Stalker is just good at hiding, but he cannot hide in plain sight. Also -10 to Perception makes almost everyone not able to see him ever.

Inquisitor
1. Sense Magic - it feels like too strong ability on that level. But I like the idea.
2. "Any features gained via the Inquisitor archetype, except bonus proficiencies, are no longer usable after casting a spell. If any Inquisitor casts a spell they must complete a short or long rest before they regain their Archetype features."
It should be written as Inquisitor feature not as a part of description.
3. Clever Combatant - make it require free hand to draw the crossbow and it will be nice. But still awfully powerful.
4. Void Arcana - could you give check calculation?
5. Flawless Form - additional attack? So 4-5 attacks per turn? (3 main hand and 1-2 offhand)
6. Flawless Form - what does it mean "ignore curses and polymorph effects"?

Brawler
1. Unarmed Inertia - from two features I would choose one. Both together are too powerful.
2. Brawler's Guile - so with improved TWF I can make 4 shoves a turn?
3. I think that damage progression is too powerful and makes Brawler too similar to Monk.

Generally - that's awesome concept, but there is too much cool factor and awesomeness. This class is too strong for me.

[Spore]

No shield proficiency

Edit: I also had no idea how to improve it at level 10

Inigo likes one handed weapons very much, they leave a free hand for rude gestures. :smallsmile:

Item manipulation or shoves (shield bash but without damage) would be cool.

[TheUser]

Hi. First of all - I love the concept of this class. It has a lot of flavor and should fill the unoccupied role.

But I have many questions and suggestions. I will divide them into core class and archetypes.

Core Slayer
1. Slayer Dice is awesome idea and restrictions are reasonable.
2. Vulnerable Foe - Sneak Attack mentions should be erased. They don't give any new information.
3. Does using Slayer Dice prevent from concentrating on spells this round?
4. Improved Fighting Style - this is seriously overpowered:
- Archery - cancelling disadvantage would be enough. Giving advantage is too much.
- GWF - this in on average about +10 to damage with no cost.
- TWF - so I get free Extra Attack with offhand and can get another one with bonus action? And I add modifier from TWF (not improved) to all attacks? Just wow.
5. Improved Fighting Style is to fightery to Slayer. I propose giving him e.g.
Bloody Mess - you are fearsome warrior and each strike of your weapon makes everyone around you scared. When you knock prone or incapacitate enemy with weapon attack you can inspire fear in the nearest enemy (Wisdom Save = 8+your proficiency bonus+your Charisma modifier).
6. Suprising Agility - I can make my AC increase for avarage of 4-6 points and deal additional damage without advantage on the cost of one Slayer Dice? Now Slayer starts being tanky?
7. Hardened Soul - excuse me? Every save? What is the idea behind this class? Being ablr to deal huge amount of damage wile being HP and AC tanky plus being immune to control magic?
8. Penetrating Strike - in my opinion it is getting too powerful. I can make this kind of attack with main hand and offhand, add my bonus damage, deal half or more damage and laugh in the face of every AC tank? I know it is 17th level but come on. Isn't it too much?
9. Critical Focus - nice capstone. I like it very much. But it should be restricted to not use this with Penetrating Strike.

Stalker
1. Crippling Strike - why Strenght save?
2. Crippling Strike - does making a save while prone makes me stand up?
3. Hide in Plain Sight - it is quite nice ability, but it feels somewhat broken. Its effect does not correspond with the name. Stalker is just good at hiding, but he cannot hide in plain sight. Also -10 to Perception makes almost everyone not able to see him ever.

Inquisitor
1. Sense Magic - it feels like too strong ability on that level. But I like the idea.
2. "Any features gained via the Inquisitor archetype, except bonus proficiencies, are no longer usable after casting a spell. If any Inquisitor casts a spell they must complete a short or long rest before they regain their Archetype features."
It should be written as Inquisitor feature not as a part of description.
3. Clever Combatant - make it require free hand to draw the crossbow and it will be nice. But still awfully powerful.
4. Void Arcana - could you give check calculation?
5. Flawless Form - additional attack? So 4-5 attacks per turn? (3 main hand and 1-2 offhand)
6. Flawless Form - what does it mean "ignore curses and polymorph effects"?

Brawler
1. Unarmed Inertia - from two features I would choose one. Both together are too powerful.
2. Brawler's Guile - so with improved TWF I can make 4 shoves a turn?
3. I think that damage progression is too powerful and makes Brawler too similar to Monk.

Generally - that's awesome concept, but there is too much cool factor and awesomeness. This class is too strong for me.

Wow this is some excellent feedback and I've definitely considered most if not all of it.
Core Class:
3. Technically using Slayer Dice would break your concentration but the ambiguity exists where a DM could rule that while affected by a Slayer Dice bonus (like dodge AC) you would need to concentrate. 5th edition seems to embrace DM Fiat a lot so I got aboard the bandwagon.
4. I think that at first glance it might seem OP but there's rationale here I will try and explain.

Archery: when you get good enough at aiming, being prone means you are a sitting duck. This is meant to not only confer this but also to synergize with Stalker's Crippling Strike. You might be right though and I may just make it remove disadvantage.

GWF: A paladin or Fighter using RAW Two-Hander spec recieves around the same bonuses at level 11. A fighter's 3 attacks are 6d6 and a paladin is 4d6 + 2d8 (more if they haste themselves.....). Again this is just to stay competitive with other classes damage.

TWF: Without this it's never an attractive option compared to other fighting styles. Even though GWM and Sharpshooter are technically optional, I've seen them exist in 100% of my games and am certain they exist in >95% of games. TWF isn't good normally. This just makes it viable. I promise.

5. A good suggestion but I don't like the fear motif as part of the slayer. Thanks anyway.

6. Bonus action cost is very real. There comes a point where you start fighting things like Dragons which are virtually impossible to get advantage when attacking. This is also only 6 rounds of combat where you can do this until you need to rest. It's meant to give Slayer the ability to deal damage when it needs to.

7. Compared side by side with a paladin this class barely keeps up. It has no bonus healing and no damage mitigation beyond dodging which closes off it's other slayer dice options. Paladins get +3 or +4 to saves at 6 and can be +5 at 8. They get either Haste or Stoneskin and a pool of healing as well as the option of +3 more AC. Slayers might seem craaaaazy strong by iteslf but when you compare it to a monk or a paladin it's got the same level of tools to work with.

9. The capstone is already limited from use with penetrating strike because slayer dice are limited to 1 per turn.

Stalker:
Crippling strike's roots in 3rd edition are why it targets strength. It previously removed 2 strength from anyone you successfully used sneak attack on (no save and more than 1 sneak attack per round). At 0 strength you fall prone and cannot move or attack due to encumbrance. That's why it's strength :)
The ambiguity is again for DM Fiat; some DM's would want a target to stand back up if it saves. Others might not. Personally I would say no but leaving the door open to DM's is important sometimes.

Hide in Plain Sight is verbatim the same as UA revised ranger and it's a feature rangers get at level 10. It also requires you stay motionless (e.g. no attacking). The old version is actually one of the worst level 10 features I've ever seen since it requires 1 minute to use each and every time and the UA is required to make it at all appealing.

Inquisitor:
I agree about listing the spell conflicts in features.
Sense Magic is much like the warlock invocation (except they get it at level 2). It's balanced believe me.

Clever combatant would still require you to have a free hand: it doesn't say you get to stow an item as part of the action.

Void Arcana is d20+int mod+slayer dice. It's meant to dispel even high level spells.

Flawless Form means that if an enemy polymorphs you, you can choose to ignore it. If an ally does, you can choose to accept it. Essentially curses and polymorphs do nothing to you if you want.

And yes 3 attacks at level 15 or 4 with Greater TWF and 5 if you use your bonus action.

Brawler
The thrown weapon option is shoehorned in there to give brawlers a nice ranged option (since they are strength based). It's meant to keep them flexible while the shove/grapple feature is usable only once per turn.

You could technically shove 4x as a level 11 fighter with TWF...the only difference is the brawler can deal unarmed damage after succeeding on 1 of them.

The damage progression is entirely to make them feel like strength monks :)

[Sidson]

Thanks for reply. I don't agree with your every answer but I see we have different point of view. I feel like this class is not enough "skill monkey" and more as an option for people who don't want to take Fighter. I would make him more versatile and maybe more about debuffing enemies (lowering AC, crippling, inspiring fear, breaking spells, etc.). Most of it is already included but I feel that in this form it is as good as variant Fighter. Not as much of a specialist as advertised :)

[Quoxis]

Too stronk to be on par with official stuff, even UA classes wish they could be this guy. Take a few class features out, give it lower hit dice or whatever.

[werescythe]

It would seem that the Dungeon Master Guild link is broken.

Also I was curious if anyone had considered making a guide for this class?


- Archery - cancelling disadvantage would be enough. Giving advantage is too much.

It really depends on the GM, my GM has it so that disadvantage is cancelled out by advantage (and vice versa) meaning that you just roll once and hope for the best.