Why doesn't Sauron lead his armies in battle?

[pendell]

So I was arguing on another board about a what-if confrontation between Sauron and Smaug.

(Background: Although Tolkien assumed they would be allies, it's easy to see the potential for friction as well. All Sauron has to do is ask for some of Smaug's treasure to finance the war effort to cause Smaug to go on a rampage. The scenario assumes Sauron doesn't have the Ring. ).

So now that we have the background -- how would these two fight if they came to it?

Well, I sort of assumed Mordor's primary defense would be the Nazgul mounted on Winged beasts to confront Smaug in the air.

-- As an aside, an air battle between Nazgul and Smaug would be cool.
-- Y'know what would be even more cool? A three-way battle between the Nazgul, Smaug, and the Eagles all at the same time. :smallamused:

However, some people assumed that Sauron would fight Smaug himself. He was a Maia , after all. Very powerful.

Which raises the question: If Sauron is so powerful, why doesn't he lead the armies against the west himself rather than stay shut up in his tower? If he has the same protection that the ringwraiths do against normal weapons, than the only being on the field who poses any threat to him whatsoever is Gandalf, and I'm sure a Dark Lord with an army like his could, in the worst case, throw a jillion disposable orcs at Gandalf to keep him busy while he cleaned up the rest of the field.

So why doesn't he do that?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Morty]

He did. Then his physical body was destroyed by Eldendil and Gil-Galad at the battle of Dagorlad, and then Isildur took the One Ring. So now he can't do that.

[Kantaki]

Didn't he have some trouble manifesting a body after loosing the Ring?
At the very least it weakened him since he had a lot of his power bound in his favourite bauble.
Way to risky to get involved himself. Especially since that's the sort of thing that might allow the agents of Valinor (people like Gandalf) to cut loose themselves.

[pendell]

Are you sure? In the Return of the King I seem to recall a line in which they debated the possibility of Sauron coming personally to the battle of Minas Tirith and bringing his not-inconsiderable power to bear on the battle. Denethor responded thus:



Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.


The thrust of this and related passages seems to imply that Sauron would not fight personally, not that he could not.

But.. the reasons mortal kings have for such reticence don't seem to apply to him. An ordinary king can be felled by a lucky arrow, or trampled by a horse, or have a stone fall on his head from the wall, or any number of misfortune. But there's precious little on the field of that sort which could do damage to Sauron himself. You'd need a wizard or some artifact weapon like Anduril, and those aren't exactly common. If you come across such an enemy ... well, that's what a Troll bodyguard is for.

ETA: He's lost his body twice, so far as we know. The first time was when Numenor got flooded and he drowned with it. That didn't stop him from putting together another one with which to fight Gil-Galad and Elendil only a few years later. Since then, he's had more than a thousand years to generate a new body. Heck, for all I know he goes through them all the time, just for fun.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Vinyadan]

Denethor actually said it: Sauron wouldn't come to Gondor until he had fully won.

As for the reason, I think that Sauron simply wished to survive and win. Generally speaking, it is unusual for these beings to directly enter combat: the Dark Lord Morgoth never left his fortress, with an exception for a challenge to a duel, where he lost a foot, until the armies of Aman physically got in there. The Valar didn't go with these armies to Middle Earth, sending Eonwe instead. Saruman doesn't personally fight.
Sauron also had a very bad track record when it came to physical combat, being first defeated by a huge dog and almost killed, and then losing to Elrond, Elendil, Isildur and Gil-galad when the siege in the War of the Last Alliance forced him to leave his tower.
Sauron was never invincible. Morgoth was closer to that -- according to Mandos, he could not be defeated by elf (not by Feanor, the greatest of them all) and, probably, man, or anything short of a Maia -- but still lost body parts and got wounded even when he won. He also fell asleep to Luthien's dance.

So it just wasn't worth the risk. And he still seemed to be recovering from his last defeat.

Denethor doesn't personally go to battle, too. He is sending his sons left and right, with a high chance of them being killed on duty. However, Denethor is very different from Sauron in that he actually is doing it for Gondor. In Sauron's case, it's Mordor which is working for him, and that's it -- Sauron isn't dedicated to anything else than himself. If Denethor dies, Gondor can go on; Denethor actually kills himself when he believes that Gondor is lost. If Sauron dies, from Sauron's point of view, that's game over. Everything is about Sauron. So let the Orcs die, no reason to fight alongside them.

There also is the fact that Sauron is terrifying, but not a war machine like in the movies; he's never described as such. It's possible that he wouldn't give that much of an advantage.

And then there is the objective problem of controlling what he has conquered, and, for that, he needs servants, lots of them. Tolkien's baddies are rather realistic from this point of view, they need people to do their bidding.

[Adderbane]

It's possible that the Ring could be used as a weapon against him, if he were to take the field personally. Remember that Sauron doesn't know where the Ring is, if he were to run into Gandalf, or even Aragorn wielding the Ring, he could be in trouble. Much safer to hang back and throw orcs and trolls at the problem.

Also, Sauron was never known as a warrior. He's a schemer and strategist.

[hamishspence]

Also, Sauron was never known as a warrior. He's a schemer and strategist.

Indeed. When he takes the field personally, there's usually an element of desperation - like in The Silmarillion when the magical hound Huan had killed most of his werewolves - including the most powerful he had available, Draugluin, "father of werewolves" - Sauron shapeshifted into werewolf form to battle Huan. And got his furry behind kicked.

[Sapphire Guard]

It went badly last time, and there's a kind of tacit Cold War deal going on with the Vala. They went after Morgoth once, and the clash of powers destroyed the whole continent. If Sauron starts moving personally, the restrictions on the White Council might get lifted, or the Vala take a hand personally, and win or lose, everything gets destroyed, which neither side wants.

[pendell]

It went badly last time, and there's a kind of tacit Cold War deal going on with the Vala. They went after Morgoth once, and the clash of powers destroyed the whole continent. If Sauron starts moving personally, the restrictions on the White Council might get lifted, or the Vala take a hand personally, and win or lose, everything gets destroyed, which neither side wants.

Hrm.. I can see him being a schemer who doesn't want to take risks. That seems in character. I'm not sure the cold war with the White Council holds up, however. After all, he took the field personally against Gil-Galad and Elendil during the Last Alliance, and the Valar didn't lift a finger to stop him. For that matter, there weren't even any wizards in that war.

Perhaps ... Sauron nuking continents or dropping the moon on people would perk their interest. Sauron smashing people with a mace is something they don't care about.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[jayem]

He was always a manipulator and organizer at heart as well.
He could have come out to fight (physically) at Gondor, but that would leave his attacks on Lothlorion, Erebor, Rivendale, Rohan (by proxy) out of his focus, and possibly lost some of his control over the east.
I don't think it quite works as an argument, by itself (if it were risk free, he could have gone and taken each out in turn), but if for any reason the choices are more equal, it is more his style.
[xxxxxx post, or quintiple jinx]

[pendell]

He was always a manipulator and organizer at heart as well.
He could have come out to fight (physically) at Gondor, but that would leave his attacks on Lothlorion, Erebor, Rivendale, Rohan (by proxy) out of his focus, and possibly lost some of his control over the east.
I don't think it quite works as an argument, by itself (if it were risk free, he could have gone and taken each out in turn), but if for any reason the choices are more equal, it is more his style.
[xxxxxx post, or quintiple jinx]

Hrm ... or another possibility is that being in the field means he's not directing the entire war effort on all fronts. If generals attacking Erebor and Lothlorien and countries in the south or east are coming to him with status reports and need him to make decisions, he's not going to be making them because he's busy smashing the brains out of some hapless villager-in-arms.

It may be that he's needed to play the role of a commander in chief far more than he needs to be a champion in any given battle. It's not as if he doesn't have ringwraiths and trolls and who knows what else to play soldier for him. Perhaps what he needs to be more than anything else is a commander. Otherwise the entire rest of the war gets put on hold while he's playing hero.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Morty]

Are you sure? In the Return of the King I seem to recall a line in which they debated the possibility of Sauron coming personally to the battle of Minas Tirith and bringing his not-inconsiderable power to bear on the battle. Denethor responded thus:



The thrust of this and related passages seems to imply that Sauron would not fight personally, not that he could not.

But.. the reasons mortal kings have for such reticence don't seem to apply to him. An ordinary king can be felled by a lucky arrow, or trampled by a horse, or have a stone fall on his head from the wall, or any number of misfortune. But there's precious little on the field of that sort which could do damage to Sauron himself. You'd need a wizard or some artifact weapon like Anduril, and those aren't exactly common. If you come across such an enemy ... well, that's what a Troll bodyguard is for.

ETA: He's lost his body twice, so far as we know. The first time was when Numenor got flooded and he drowned with it. That didn't stop him from putting together another one with which to fight Gil-Galad and Elendil only a few years later. Since then, he's had more than a thousand years to generate a new body. Heck, for all I know he goes through them all the time, just for fun.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The difference is by the time his second body was destroyed, he had invested too much of his power into the Ring. And then he lost it. The whole point of denying it to him is that not having the Ring prevents him from returning to his full power. It really is that simple.

As for Denethor, he's questionably sane at the time, and engaging in gallows humour.

[Aotrs Commander]

You don't survive umpteen years by taking risks, and by the Third Age, Sauron had likely had about enough of that.

Luthien kicked his arse, he got killed in Numenor and then Gil-Galad, Isildur and Elendil killed him again at the very height of his power.

I dunno about you, but I'd like "um, y'know what, I have people to do that" by that point, meself...



Also LotR is Rolemaster, the only thing in Rolemaster that gave you immunity to fumbles was the Iron Crown (showing you TRUELY powerful it was) and in addition, frankly Sauron was concerned that, while statistically improbable, it was statisitcally possible he could be killed (again) by a hobbit with a bent knife if they made enough open-ended rolls on RRs and attack rolls.

Or Lobelia Sackville-Baggin's umbrella (+10 Plaid (orange, red, purple & green), hits as a main gauche and does additional Tiny criticals of the same value).

(I'm not even making this up. You should see Luthien's dagger...)

[Legato Endless]

Because at the time of the Third Age group there's no incentive to. You don't risk the King, however marginal, when you are absolutely guaranteed victory without doing so. That's why things are so hopeless that the Fellowship plan is hatched at all. All of the free people's united can not win a conventional war. His forces overshadow them completely. Sauron has already seen every possible rival diminished or destroyed.

Combine that with the aforementioned greater efficacy of directing the theaters of war compared to a mere battlefield and even if he weren't wary of getting unbodied by some lesser being it just doesn't make logistical sense. And psychologically it makes sense he'd act more like Denethor than the maia he is. The long years have worn away at him shriveling into something like his master. He has fought personally a few times before, but the humiliation of losing to lessers like Huan or Elendil and Gil-galad probably out weights whatever enjoyment he took from crushing Finrod.


The difference is by the time his second body was destroyed, he had invested too much of his power into the Ring. And then he lost it. The whole point of denying it to him is that not having the Ring prevents him from returning to his full power. It really is that simple.

As for Denethor, he's questionably sane at the time, and engaging in gallows humour.

True, but we do know he has taken physical form again. Gollum met him when he was being tortured for information about the Ring and tells Frodo he only has nine fingers left after Isildur cut the ring from his hand.

[Tvtyrant]

I am fairly certain Sauron is trying to conquer the world on the down low. What happens every time a darklord is going to win?
Morgoth is filling the world with monsters, gets taken and hauled off as a prisoner.
Morgoth conquers middle earth, and the gods come. They kill him and take Sauron hostage.
Sauron conquers Middle Earth, the men of Numenor show up and take him hostage.
Sauron is trying again after, gets his hand cut off.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think the real question here is why should he? What possible benefit could he gain from that that outweighs the fact that 1) even if he can manifest physically, he's not as powerful without the ring and 2) every other time he's stepped out to fight personally he's gotten his ass handed to him? Nothing sent against his armies could possibly do more than delay them, and Sauron was well aware of that (and he didn't figure for the backup destroy-the-Ring plan ever working for a variety of reasons).

I'm not contributing anything new here, I'm just summarizing everyone else's points.

[Dragonus45]

It is worth noting that Tolkien had a view of evil that it was often sedentary. Where the more powerful and corrupt an evil being became the more likely they were to sit around on a throne not doing a whole lot.

[Darth Ultron]

Well...

1.Meta reason 1: Sauron, the orcs and ''all evil'' represent the ''evil'' side of progress and technology. Sauron, at the top is more of the psychological force of ''evil technology/greed/captain planet villains''. Or more so, ''Sauron'' is an idea....and you don't physically ''fight'' ideas...you must resit them in other non violent ways.

2.Meta reason 2: You want the bad guy to be a big threat, so big and bad and evil nothing can stop him. But that kinda of backs you in a corner as to defeat such a big, bad evil would take a lot of plot, story and time. You'd just about have to make the whole work of fiction with only that single focus. But if you do that your work won't have any fluff. And many writers, and readers love fluff. With no fluff, the ''heroes'' are just cardboard cut outs with no depth. And few readers would care about a non fluffy character at all, even if they were a main character. So the end result is you need your all powerful bad guy to be defeated by something other then a direct fight. You simply avoid the fight, still defeat the bad guy and save the day.

Note: If the writer does all the fluff, and still wants the bad guy to fight, this is where they have the bad guy do something dumb, defeat themselves, or the good guy tricks them somehow. Some times this can work....most of the time it does not.

3.Meta reason 3: You want the bad guy to be a big threat, so big and bad and evil nothing can stop him. The obvious response would be to have an all powerful good guy too. Except you don't want it to be too easy, and if the good guy is all powerful like the bad guy, you have a hard time doing say ''they take a whole chapter to cross the river''. Of course, very often, a writer wants the hero to be a normal ''every man'' to appeal to the normal people. If the character is a farmer turned hero, it has a huge draw and appeal...to some (a great many ''some''). So this brings up the problem of: If the bad guy can swat the good guy like a bug, how can you have them fight? Well, the best trick is to not have them fight, and even better is to make the ''bad guy'' something that can be defeated, but the hero does not need to fight.

4. Meta reason 4. The fight is not the point. The author is trying to do the classic ''change the world'' with their beautiful message. That is what your ment to read and get out of it, the war stuff is just back ground smoke. You should pay attention to the real, human, elements of the work..not just the cool action. Like when Sam saves Frodo (again) you should be breaking out in tears over the beautiful power of their bromance friendship and not be thinking ''wow, can't wait for the war to start!''

[Traab]

All this has probably been said but its worth going over again.

1) Sauron is a field marshal. Generals and field marshals and such do NOT directly take part in combat. Thats not what their job is. Their job is to strategize, determine tactics, and command troops from the rear. Not to pick up a sword or rifle and go forth to shoot people in the face.

2) Sauron is not a combatant type. His whole spiel is deception and manipulation. Just like you dont put your spies into the shield wall, saurons skills, which are incredible in their field, are wasted in a combat role.

3) He tends to lose when physical combat takes place. And the only times it DOES take place are when he is already losing, the werewolf story, isildur and crew, etc. This is also why the white council and up dont release restrictions when he takes the field, because he DOESNT take the field unless he is already losing, so there is no need.

4) Without the ring, his power, which has already been proven to not be insurmountable, is even weaker. Much is made of the fading of men elves and dwarves in the books. However, the same can be said of sauron. Losing the ring meant he was rendered FAR weaker than before, and as has been stated many times, he lost physical combat while at his relative peak. He is many things, stupid isnt one of them.

[Mechalich]

In addition to many other good reasons, I'd add that Sauron could, and did, send out the Witch-King of Angmar - Chief Ringwraith - to fight battles on his behalf and in the mind of pretty much everyone in Middle Earth the Witch-King is plenty invincible since no man can defeat him. He was all set to fight Gandalf like it was no big deal before the Riders of Rohan arrived. Until the Witch-King falls there's absolutely no need for Sauron to go himself and no real benefit to doing so.

[White_Hood]

(Background: Although Tolkien assumed they would be allies, it's easy to see the potential for friction as well. All Sauron has to do is ask for some of Smaug's treasure to finance the war effort to cause Smaug to go on a rampage. The scenario assumes Sauron doesn't have the Ring. )

I'm sorry, but when did Tolkien ever say this? I got the impression that dragons were selfish, greedy creatures with no interest in the workings of men, elves or dwarves and only really concerned with their treasure. They served Morgoth because he created them and Morgoth was a god. Sauron is not, he was a servant who got big ideas once his master was defeated. Why would Smaug or any other dragon ever ally with him?

[jayem]

I'm sorry, but when did Tolkien ever say this? I got the impression that dragons were selfish, greedy creatures with no interest in the workings of men, elves or dwarves and only really concerned with their treasure. They served Morgoth because he created them and Morgoth was a god. Sauron is not, he was a servant who got big ideas once his master was defeated. Why would Smaug or any other dragon ever ally with him?

Either in the appendices or unfinished tales there's a short story where Gandalf relates being worried about Smaug being used in the North. Then meeting Thorin, and seeing a solution.
(possibly both, there's a short bit in appendix A at the end of the dwarf section, and I'm sure I've read a longer version). I suspect alliance would not be too strong, though.

One could also speculate about the Balrog, Sauron seems to know a bit about what's going on in Moria. Had Gandalf not met it, would Sauron have been able to offer it's own greater Moria in exchange for a small trinket like Rivendell.
And of course there's Shelob.

[hamishspence]

It's both - Unfinished Tales provides the story of that conversation with Thorin, in various sections, and the appendix to The Hobbit (I think "Collector's Edition" version specifically) combined them all into one narrative.

Appendix A of LotR also mentions it, but in much less detail.

Unfinished Tales version (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5t4vfhasRVcC&pg=PT209&lpg=PT209&dq=The+Dragon+Sauron+might+use+with+great+effect&source=bl&ots=SlYk_Nei0l&sig=eHqN1KSV8BKfQPNmfmaKluIr4pY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjD-daTzuzUAhUIJMAKHcK4C3sQ6AEIRTAH#v=onepage&q=The%20Dragon%20Sauron%20might%20use%20with%20gre at%20effect&f=false)

[Eldan]

Surely Smaug could be bribed, anyway. At least for a time. Offer him the same thing as the dwarves, one of the dwarven rings. Or all the treasures of Gondor.

[hamishspence]

Indeed, later on in The Quest of Erebor in Unfinished Tales (not shown in that preview) Gandalf brings up Sauron and Smaug working together in future, in conversation with Thorin:


“Well, what have you got to say?” Thorin asked me as soon as I came in.

“This first,” I answered. “Your own ideas are those of a king, Thorin Oakenshield; but your kingdom is gone. If it is to be restored, which I doubt, it must be from small beginnings. Far away here, I wonder if you fully realize the strength of a great Dragon. But that is not all: there is a Shadow growing fast in the world far more terrible. They will help one another.” And they certainly would have done so, if I had not attacked Dol Guldur at the same time. “Open war would be quite useless; and anyway it is impossible for you to arrange it. You will have to try something simpler and yet bolder, indeed something desperate.”

[Traab]

Either in the appendices or unfinished tales there's a short story where Gandalf relates being worried about Smaug being used in the North. Then meeting Thorin, and seeing a solution.
(possibly both, there's a short bit in appendix A at the end of the dwarf section, and I'm sure I've read a longer version). I suspect alliance would not be too strong, though.

One could also speculate about the Balrog, Sauron seems to know a bit about what's going on in Moria. Had Gandalf not met it, would Sauron have been able to offer it's own greater Moria in exchange for a small trinket like Rivendell.
And of course there's Shelob.

The thing with shelob and the balrog though, thats less "You work for me now" and more "I can use their existence in this location to my benefit" Iirc, shelob ate tons of orcs over the years, she basically killed anything that wandered through that section of mordors borders. And the balrog? Remember how everyone on team evil ran the frick away the second they heard it was coming? Yeah, its not an ally, its just a monster that incidentally protects their interests there. Its possible smaug would have been the same way. Setup an incident to get smaug all riled up and suddenly that entire section of the world is a no go zone that sauron doesnt have to worry about. After all, there are the elves of mirkwood in that general vicinity. Being able to keep them from moving in certain directions would be handy.

[hamishspence]

And the balrog? Remember how everyone on team evil ran the frick away the second they heard it was coming? Yeah, its not an ally, its just a monster that incidentally protects their interests there.

I'm not sure how Sauron felt about the Balrog - but the impression I get from the books and the appendices - was that Sauron sent out orcs and trolls from Mordor, to the Mountains to take command of the orcs in residence. (Azog, Bolg, the orc who stabs Frodo in Moria (replaced with a cave troll in the movie), and maybe even the Great Goblin, all being "Uruks" - huge, heavily armoured, with unusually large heads.)

In the book, orcs and trolls are with the Balrog when it attacks the party - the trolls lay down slabs, and the orcs use them to cross fissures (the Balrog just jumps the fissures, ahead of the advancing orc horde).

[Vinyadan]

I think that Smaug already was an ally of Sauron, in a way. Remember how Glaurung was sent to Nargothrond? Once there he was pretty much autonomous. I think that dragons were more instruments than servants -- you pointed them at a target they liked, and they would perform flawlessly, for their own greed. However, you must protect them when they need it, which is what Morgoth did housing Glaurung, and what Sauron would have done for Smaug, had he had a chance.
Sauron had a number of strongholds controlled by slaves and allies under his possibly loose direction, before returning to Mordor. Angmar and Minas Morgul are the most obvious ones, because of how submissive the Nazgul are. Other ones are maybe Durthang and Cirith Ungol. I wouldn't be too surprised if Smaug had conquered the Mountain on Sauron's invitation. If he had been sent to Imladris, it probably would have been like Nargothrond: an army of Orcs and a dragon taking advantage of each other to reach a goal they could not have achieved alone, under the direction of the Dark Lord.

The Balrog could be harder to say. I think it didn't leave Moria because he was still scared after the War of Wrath: with good reason, since the lone good Maia who got into Moria finally killed it. But this would have been reason enough to help Sauron in any possible way against the common enemy.

Shelob didn't care, she just was hungry. Her mother Ungoliant actually attacked Morgoth
when he didn't want to give her the Silmarils to eat.

Anyway, Tolkien always made sure to show cracks in alliances, both of good and of bad peoples. So it's all conjecture, and everything would have depended on personal choices, in a very tolkieny way -- he didn't like stories in which characters can't choose on their own.

About Sauron being weaker than Morgoth: Sauron was actually more powerful than Morgoth wasvat the end of his reign. How did that happen? While Sauron was big in diplomacy and treason, Morgoth did insane things like raising mountains, changing the climate, and manufacturing new races, among which dragons, which left him drained. Sauron could use this heritage of Morgoth to increase his war power without depleting his personal power like his master did. While Sauron tried to gain leverage enchanting a ring, Morgoth strove for it by "enchanting" the planet.

[White_Hood]

The thing with shelob and the balrog though, thats less "You work for me now" and more "I can use their existence in this location to my benefit" Iirc, shelob ate tons of orcs over the years, she basically killed anything that wandered through that section of mordors borders. And the balrog? Remember how everyone on team evil ran the frick away the second they heard it was coming? Yeah, its not an ally, its just a monster that incidentally protects their interests there. Its possible smaug would have been the same way. Setup an incident to get smaug all riled up and suddenly that entire section of the world is a no go zone that sauron doesnt have to worry about. After all, there are the elves of mirkwood in that general vicinity. Being able to keep them from moving in certain directions would be handy.

You make a good point. I could see this being the case easily.

[warty goblin]

What would he have to gain from it?

He knows there is no power left in Gondor and Rohan that can really stop his armies. The only thing that could defeat him, to his understanding, is someone using the Ring, and I don't see how marching out at the head of his forces provides any protection from that. On the other hand, in the extremely unlikely event that his physical body is destroyed or wounded again, he'e seriously set back because he has put so much of his power into other things.

Why take a tiny risk for no gain, when not taking it causes at worst a minor delay, or else does nothing to address his greatest risk, somebody using the Ring against him.

Besides which, by this point it's not terribly likely he's a super powered physical combatent anyway, since he's lost his body a number of times, and doesn't have the Ring, which contains much of his power.

[Waker]

It's been years since I last read the books, so I'm sure there is plenty I'm forgetting. The others have given ample reasons for him showing reticence, not having a physical body or just being inclined to lead from the rear. Another possibility is that he is focusing too much of his will towards finding the Ring. Between commanding the Nazgul without the Ring, the loss of power from the Necromancer's defeat a hundred years prior and just turning everything he has to track the Ring, he might not have any juice to do more than put in a little face time here and there.
I also thought that Denethor's statement was more to cover for his inaction. We don't see him for a long stretch of time, but when we do, very little of it could be viewed as being a leader. Mostly he grieves over the death of Boromir or gripes about Faramir and Rohan.

[kraftcheese]

I always wondered how Sauron saw himself; I mean as a Maia he was a great smith and craftsman (hence the rings), and he loves order and control...does he feel like he's imposing necessary order over the fractured and chaotic peoples of Middle Earth? Does he think he's doing something good?

[Leewei]

I always wondered how Sauron saw himself; I mean as a Maia he was a great smith and craftsman (hence the rings), and he loves order and control...does he feel like he's imposing necessary order over the fractured and chaotic peoples of Middle Earth? Does he think he's doing something good?
Sauron is simply a vicious authoritarian. Tolkien's inspiration was a combination of these leaders of his day: Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin. The story doesn't make a lot of sense this way, though, does it? Each of those leaders fanned the flames of nationalist zeal. Sauron was much more blatantly monarchical in his leadership. His followers have none of the trappings of state that the real-world autocrats were so fond of.

What I like to think is that Morgoth was a rebel against a greater authority. He wanted freedom to follow their own agenda, and were stymied again and again. When he was finally disfigured and banished, his followers still remembered his glory and his wisdom. Chief among these was Sauron, who worked tirelessly to help his master and friend escape his bondage. He was but a craftsman, albeit the greatest of them, ill-equipped to successfully revolt against the Valar. Even so, he forged armies, alliances, and artifacts, and even new forms for himself, tirelessly working in the only ways he knew.

[pendell]

I always wondered how Sauron saw himself; I mean as a Maia he was a great smith and craftsman (hence the rings), and he loves order and control...does he feel like he's imposing necessary order over the fractured and chaotic peoples of Middle Earth? Does he think he's doing something good?

If I remember correctly, both Sauron and Morgoth started out with good intentions. IIRC, it says that "he feigned, even to himself at first, that all he did was for the good of the peoples in Middle-Earth".

Essentially Sauron offers a Tarquinesque peace and order much like the Empire of Blood, and if you have to break a few eggs along the way and publicly disembowel the chickens who hatched them as a warning to others, well, that's a small price to pay for peace and security. At least, in his view.

I think he thinks that the world would be better if it was run by him because, as a Maia, he has wisdom far above that of humans or even elves. He's also utterly unscrupulous in doing whatever it takes to bring this about.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

If I remember correctly, both Sauron and Morgoth started out with good intentions. IIRC, it says that "he feigned, even to himself at first, that all he did was for the good of the peoples in Middle-Earth".

The essay from Morgoth's Ring describes the differences between him and Morgoth pretty well:


Sauron was "greater", effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth — hence all things that were born on Earth, and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be "stained". Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently "incarnate"; for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

Sauron, however, inherited the "corruption" of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the "Music" than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things. The time of Melkor's greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale. And later after things had become more stable, Melkor was more interested in and capable of dealing with a volcanic eruption, for example, than with (say) a tree. It is indeed probable that he was simply unaware of the minor or more delicate productions of Yavanna, such as small flowers. 1

Thus, as "Morgoth", when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole ultimate object was their destruction. Elves, and still more Men, he despised because of their "weakness": that is their lack of physical force, or power over "matter"; but he was also afraid of them. He was aware, at any rate originally when still capable of rational thought, that he could not "annihilate" 2 them: that is, destroy their being; but their physical "life", and incarnate form became increasingly to his mind the only thing that was worth considering. 3 Or he became so far advanced in Lying that he lied even to himself, and pretended that he could destroy them and rid Arda of them altogether. Hence his endeavour always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them in his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own "creatures", such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men. Melkor's final impotence and despair lay in this: that whereas the Valar (and in their degree Elves and Men) could still love "Arda Marred", that is Arda with a Melkor-ingredient, and could still heal this or that hurt, or produce from its very marring, from its state as it was, things beautiful and lovely, Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have "existed", independent of his own mind, and a world in potential.

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of the palantíri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his "plans", the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself. 4

Morgoth had no "plan"; unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a "plan". But this is, of course, a simplification of the situation. Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of (Iluvatar) (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course, be a "sincere" atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the "change of the world" at the Downfall of Númenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under (Iluvatar's) curse and wrath. If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and "colonize" Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast — cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people rather than of animals.

Sauron was not a "sincere" atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear (Iluvatar's) action in Arda). As was seen in the case of Ar-Pharazôn. But there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor's own terms, as a god, or even as (Iluvatar). This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself. Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both profited by this darkened shadow of good and the services of "worshippers". But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time. His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the (Iluvatar)-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest. But though Sauron's whole true motive was the destruction of the Númenóreans, this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazôn, for humiliation. Sauron (unlike Morgoth) would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, as his own subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.

[Vinyadan]

Sauron is simply a vicious authoritarian. Tolkien's inspiration was a combination of these leaders of his day: Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin. The story doesn't make a lot of sense this way, though, does it? Each of those leaders fanned the flames of nationalist zeal. Sauron was much more blatantly monarchical in his leadership. His followers have none of the trappings of state that the real-world autocrats were so fond of.


After Morgoth was gone, following some time of pause, Sauron became at first a priest and then a god for his followers. He incited the worship of Morgoth in the Second Age, and he portrayed himself as the representative of Morgoth first, and later, in the times of the Lord of the Rings, as Morgoth returned. So he pretended to be the guy he declared to be God instead of Eru (it's in letter #183 and in the Akallabeth). Tolkien explicitly describes him as a God-King.

Tolkien explains that his pride swelled for the admiration he received by the mortals because of his knowledge, and also he was proud of his ability to manoeuvre them. So he wanted everyone's admiration and respect, and also their submission to him, as a sign of his superiority, in which he took pride.

The thing is, Sauron didn't care about statehood or nationalism, he cared about godhood. He was far beyond normal mortal tyrants in this, being he much more powerful, intelligent and longer lived than anyone contrasting him (Gandalf had to forget his own power). He wanted to be the god of all rational creatures, and to have complete temporal power over the whole of the Earth.

This I think meant that Morgoth and Sauron were also motivated by a deep hate towards Eru, who would always be stronger than them, and whose place they could not take. Morgoth started out searching for the power of Creation (the imperishable flame), which was a prerogative of Iluvatar.

Interestingly, in the same letter, Tolkien says that Denethor did see things as State vs State, and he was so absorbed in the defense of Gondor against what he saw as nothing else than another, stronger power, that he ceased thinking of Good and Evil, instead going for Gondor and Not-Gondor. Tolkien explains that Denethor only saw war from a political point of view meant that Denethor would have become a tyrant, had he won the war, and oppressed the East, acting with a vengeful spirit against those who had been his enemies.

Tolkien also talks about the State-God and a "Marshal This-or-That" as its High Cleric. So yes, there undoubtedly were parallels with the real world situation, although I don't think Tolkien actually inspired himself to any one of these historical characters, going instead for more for satanic aspects.

Morgoth also is actually older than any of these autocracies. The first story of Tinuviel is from 1917, and I believe Morgoth was already there. The whole thing about pride is a recurring theme when discussing the Devil's reasons.

Sauron was a bit different from Morgoth, in that Morgoth immediately wanted to follow his own path and added his own parts to creation. The Balrogs already joined Morgoth during creation. Sauron came to him later, because he admired strength. He officially renounced him after Morgoth was defeated, but never came back to Aman to be pardoned or judged, and, instead, remained in Middle-Earth; according to Tolkien, forsaking Morgoth was just treachery.

Also yes, Sauron initially wanted to order the world according to his wisdom, to the economic benefit of everyone. Tolkien says that he doesn't conceive absolute evil, and that that would be Zero.

I think it's really worth reading it yourself: letter #183. It's not actually a letter, since Tolkien apparently never sent it, and wrote it for himself.