Anyone else unhappy with the Sun Soul Monk? How do we make it better?

[jaappleton]

I look at the Sun Soul from the SCAG and really want to like it. And there are some things to like. Burning Hands as a bonus action has some merit to it, if you want to deal some decent (for a non-Mage) AoE. You're basically an anime character in a lot of ways, and some people enjoy that, myself included.

However...

Radiant Sun Bolt. Ok, it's Radiant. Points for that, excellent damage type. Yet it's a 30ft ranged martial arts attack, essentially. Not quite a spell, so it doesn't stack with many things. Can't trigger Stunning Strike. Its still a ranged attack, so using it in melee range means Disadvantage. All in all, I've little use for it.

Searing Sunburst, at lv11, is deceptive. No half damage on a miss. Targets Constitution, which, at lv11, isn't exactly ideal against most enemies. Plus, it comes in at lv11... Survey results stated most games end around levels 10-12. So in actual play, you'll use it... Really, how often? Caps out at 8d6 damage, and enemies behind total cover are immune to boot.

Next is the capstone. Sun Shield. Which is a capstone, so most people never get to use it. Use your Reaction to deal 10 damage, essentially. Really? Ok, Open Palms are outright killing things. I'll do an extra 10 damage once per turn if something hits me. Open Palm is OP and its unfair to compare to it? Agreed! So lets compare to Long Death. Up to 20d10 damage. 110 average damage.

As a whole, Sun Soul is just so underwhelming. It really is. And I want to like it, but instead hate it because I saw what it COULD be.

I looked back to 3.X and even Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, and saw the Sun Soul. IT'S SO MUCH BETTER AND I WANT IT IN 5E!

How do we bring THAT into 5E?

Specifically, this is how it was before: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050601a&page=4



– 2nd level: May cast Sun Soulray once per day.
– 5th level: May cast Flaming Fists once per day.
– 6th level: Gains an additional use of Sun Soulray.
– 8th level: May cast Greater Sun once per day.
– 10th level: Gains an additional use of Sun Soulray.
– 13th level: May cast Soul Sunbeam once per day.
– 15th level: Gains an additional use of Sun Soulray.

SUN SOULRAY: The Sun Soul Monk projects a blast of light from open palm, dealing 1d8 damage every 2 levels to a maximum of 5d8. This ability does an additional 6 damage vs. undead.

FLAMING FISTS: The Sun Soul Monk channels inner light into unarmed attacks, turning fists into flaming weapons that deal an additional 2d6 fire damage per hit for the next round. The duration increases to 2 rounds at level 9, 3 rounds at level 12, 4 rounds at level 15, and 5 rounds at level 25. This special ability automatically modifies normal attacks; no weapon-switching needs to be done.

GREATER SUN: The Sun Soul Monk wreathes self in flames that act as a Fireshield (Red), granting the Monk 50% Fire Resistance and protecting from attacks made within a 5-ft. radius. An opponent that hits the Monk with any weapons or spells within this radius suffers 1d8+2 points of fire damage.

SUN SOULBEAM: The Sun Soul Monk emits a dazzling burst of light that strikes at all other creatures within a 30-ft. radius. The Sun Soulbeam does not automatically hit all targets, but makes a melee attack using the Monk's current THAC0 (+3 to hit vs. undead). Struck creatures suffer 9d6 points of damage (9d6+3 if undead), unless they save vs. Spell for half. In addition, all creatures except the Monk must save vs. Spell or be blinded for 10 turns.


Now, I understand those are older editions of D&D. I know. A straight conversion isn't possible.

I'm looking to take the big portions of meat off this proverbial bone. Lv3, lv6, lv11, lv17. Right?

1. How do we replace Radiant Sun Bolt with what's essentially a ranged Smite attack?
2. How do we get something like Sunbeam into this?
3. How do we make it balanced?

So, playground... I ask for your help. I have some ideas, I'm spitballing here.

My proposal for essentially the ranged Smite is 2 Ki for 2d8, an additional 1d8 per Ki afterward, and another 1d8 VS Fey, Fiends & Undead. Maybe just Fiends & Undead. Maximum of 5 Ki spent total, you can't go higher. Should that cost a bonus action? IMO, yes. Why? Regular Smite is additional to a melee attack, so why miss out on that? This ability is at lv3.

Then at lv6, you can manifest that into a 60ft long, 5ft wide beam. Costs more Ki. Maybe 3 Ki to activate, costs an action? Deals 3d6 damage, an additional 2d6 per additional Ki spent? Cap it like how Burning Hands is on the current Sun Soul, to prevent it from doing too much damage at early levels?

Maybe add in an ability for your Flurry of Blows to deal an additional Fire damage equal to your Wisdom modifier. Lasts one minute, costs... 2 Ki to activate?

That's what I've got so far, what do you guys think? How can we make the Sun Soul better?

[suplee215]

I think the way to make them viable is simple. Allow sharpshooter to work with the radiant sun bolts. You get the one thing other monks lack. a major damage upgrade. It gives the Sun Monk a niche outside the other ones (except Kensei who can also use sharpershooter).

[GlenSmash!]

I'd start out by just making Radiant Sun Bolt get all the goodies monk weapons get.

Is it so hard to think a Sun Soul Monk could Stun with his little fireballs?

[suplee215]

I'd start out by just making Radiant Sun Bolt get all the goodies monk weapons get.

Is it so hard to think a Sun Soul Monk could Stun with his little fireballs?

I wonder about this. Sure, it is the obvious answer but being able to stun at range seems a bit broken. How many encounters will be broken just by stunning a winged creature 30 feet in the air?

[rbstr]

I think the bolts should have longer range. At least 60, if not 120 feet. Plus let it use the normal martial arts bonus action attack for free, not just the flurry-equivalent extra two for one ki. That makes it a much stronger ranged attack IMO, especially given monk's kiting ability.
Not sure what to do with the capstone as it is pretty weak. Maybe make the bolts turn into mini-Sunbeams- dealing damage to all in the line!

The mid levels are pretty OK IMO. I think maybe I'd change one into something more defensive.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I think my biggest problem with the Sun Soul monk is actually that it fills no real niches like the other three monk subclasses do. Open Hand is the best at straight up, in-your-face combat, Shadow is stealthy, Long Death is a tanky monster with support. On paper Sun Soul is the ranged option, but it's range is just so limited in damage output, utility, and actual range that there's no real reason to pick it over a two level dip in warlock for EB outside of flavor (or knowledge that you're in an undead-centric campaign).

I also feel like monks had another ranged option already, making this super redundant. Can't remember it, though. Perhaps I put it out of my mind for some reason. Whatever it was, I'm not sure making a mediocre ranged monk to paper over a completely terrible one that we'd all like to assume isn't real was a great idea.

A smite's not a terrible idea for Radiant Sun Bolt, but I'd love for it to do something more unique then act like a ranged paladin with better short rest capabilities and lesser nova rounds. What if the Radiant Sun Bolt was replaced by a kind of solid projection of the monk's fists? So they can apply stunning strike at range and otherwise treat it like a hyper-long reach melee attack. I also like the flavor better than the DBZ image it currently represents.

Searing Sunburst could be cool if it had some kind of utility. I was thinking of adding the blinded condition, and a short range teleport- after using it, the monk can appear in any square that was just affected by it. It opens up fun tools and shenanigans.

Sun Shield... sucks, you're totally right. As a much stronger option, how about if the monk could use their reaction when hit to use Radiant Sun Bolt? Combined with my previous suggestion, this could mean they could respond with a possible Stunning Fist, too. Now that's a capstone!

[Easy_Lee]

How about this:
3rd: Radiant Sun Bolt: you can make ranged attacks with your unarmed strikes at a range of 30/60. These attacks deal radiant damage, and can ignite flammable objects that are not being worn or carried.
6th: Searing Arc Strike: when you use flurry of blows, add one additional unarmed damage die (radiant) to each attacks' damage.
11th: Searing Sunburst: just make it a dexterity save that goes around corners like fireball.
17th: Sunbeam: use your action and spend 3 ki to fire a beam of devastating radiant energy from your hands. Creates a 150' long 5' wide cylinder starting in front of you and traveling in a direction you choose. Targets caught in this attack must make a Dexterity save or take 4D10 Radiant Damage and 4D10 Thundering Damage, half as much on a successful save. A nonmagical object that isn’t being worn or carried also takes the damage if it’s in the beam's area.

[Zalabim]

I looked back to 3.X and even Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, and saw the Sun Soul. IT'S SO MUCH BETTER AND I WANT IT IN 5E!

How do we bring THAT into 5E?

Specifically, this is how it was before: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050601a&page=4



– 2nd level: May cast Sun Soulray once per day.
– 5th level: May cast Flaming Fists once per day.
– 6th level: Gains an additional use of Sun Soulray.
– 8th level: May cast Greater Sun once per day.
– 10th level: Gains an additional use of Sun Soulray.
– 13th level: May cast Soul Sunbeam once per day.
– 15th level: Gains an additional use of Sun Soulray.

SUN SOULRAY: The Sun Soul Monk projects a blast of light from open palm, dealing 1d8 damage every 2 levels to a maximum of 5d8. This ability does an additional 6 damage vs. undead.

FLAMING FISTS: The Sun Soul Monk channels inner light into unarmed attacks, turning fists into flaming weapons that deal an additional 2d6 fire damage per hit for the next round. The duration increases to 2 rounds at level 9, 3 rounds at level 12, 4 rounds at level 15, and 5 rounds at level 25. This special ability automatically modifies normal attacks; no weapon-switching needs to be done.

GREATER SUN: The Sun Soul Monk wreathes self in flames that act as a Fireshield (Red), granting the Monk 50% Fire Resistance and protecting from attacks made within a 5-ft. radius. An opponent that hits the Monk with any weapons or spells within this radius suffers 1d8+2 points of fire damage.

SUN SOULBEAM: The Sun Soul Monk emits a dazzling burst of light that strikes at all other creatures within a 30-ft. radius. The Sun Soulbeam does not automatically hit all targets, but makes a melee attack using the Monk's current THAC0 (+3 to hit vs. undead). Struck creatures suffer 9d6 points of damage (9d6+3 if undead), unless they save vs. Spell for half. In addition, all creatures except the Monk must save vs. Spell or be blinded for 10 turns.

First off, Sun Soulray is basically a worse version of the sunbolts the 5E version gets at level 3. It's usable less often and does less damage. So we're already ahead on the deal.

Flaming Fists is a little awkward, but gets good later on. I'd suggest making the new capstone based on this, since those are usually powerful damage boosts on the monk. I believe the bonus action Burning Hands is what is supposed to evoke this effect, so that can now be replaced.

Greater Sun is basically the capstone, since it's fire shield, but the current capstone isn't passive and doesn't give any resistance either. That's an easy change to make. The sun soul should get resistance to at least radiant damage somewhere, and the ability to cast fire shield or use an ability like it could fit in at level 11.

Sun Soulbeam isn't much different from Searing Sunburst. The only thing that needs added is the ability to blind victims. I'd suggest this as the new level 6, keeping its damage scaling option, along with some ability to blind enemies when the monk deals radiant damage to them. Level 6 is a good place to give an option that's an alternative to the melee-only stunning strike.

So, move the area blast down one tier (keeping the scaling, maybe with a limit at lower levels), give an ability to blind enemies at that level, move the capstone down one tier (and make the retaliation passive like fire shield, maybe with a limit on activation instead of constant) and it grants resistance as well, and the capstone is an effect that adds damage on each hit, like divine favor or elemental weapon, and should work for both melee weapon and ranged spell attacks. Somewhere between 1d4 and 2d6 is probably good.

I've no idea what the range is on the old version's soulray, but you could certainly allow sunbolts to have a range more like 30'/120' or 30'/90' with disadvantage at long ranges like a thrown weapon.

[jaappleton]

I was just really hoping to get a version much closer to the original version. I look at the SCAG version and see Sun Soul in name only.

I want the older one.

[jaappleton]

Sorry for double posting.

Here's what I got so far, trying to replicate the ORIGINAL Sun Soul. I'm skipping the flavor text here and getting down to the nitty gritty.

Lv3 - Sun Soulray
As a bonus action, you can empower your next strike for 2 Ki points. Your next unarmed strike deals an additional 2d6 Radiant damage, and an extra d6 damage per additional Ki point spent, up to a maximum of 5 Ki. Fiends & Undead take an additional damage die damage.


Lv6 - Soul Sunbeam
As an action, you can unleash a blast of energy from your body for 3 Ki points. Creatures in a 30ft cone must make a Dexterity saving throw. Creatures that fail the saving throw suffer 4d6 Radiant damage and are Blinded until the end of their next turn, or half damage and are not blinded. You can increase this damage by spending additional Ki as you grow more powerful, though there are limits. The maximum number of Ki you can spend on this ability equals half your Monk level, rounded down.

Lv11 - Greater Sun
The damage dice from your Sun Soulray increases to d8s.
Additionally, you can spend 4 Ki to cast the spell Fire Shield, though only the Warm variant.

Lv17 - Flaming Fists
When you use Flurry of Blows, your reach extends to 10ft and you deal additional damage equal to your Wisdom modifier.

[Easy_Lee]

Sorry for double posting.

Here's what I got so far, trying to replicate the ORIGINAL Sun Soul. I'm skipping the flavor text here and getting down to the nitty gritty.

Lv3 - Sun Soulray
As a bonus action, you can empower your next strike for 2 Ki points. Your next unarmed strike deals an additional 2d6 Radiant damage, and an extra d6 damage per additional Ki point spent, up to a maximum of 5 Ki. Fiends & Undead take an additional damage die damage.

Lv6 - Soul Sunbeam
As an action, you can unleash a blast of energy from your body for 3 Ki points. Creatures in a 30ft cone must make a Constitution saving throw. Creatures that fail the saving throw suffer 3d6 Radiant damage and are Blinded until the end of their next turn, or half damage and are not blinded. You can increase this damage by spending additional Ki as you grow more powerful, though there are limits. The maximum number of Ki you can spend on this ability equals half your Monk level, rounded down.

Lv11 - Greater Sun
The damage dice from your Sun Soulray increases to d8s.
Additionally, you can spend 4 Ki to cast the spell Fire Shield, though only the Warm variant.

Lv17 - Flaming Fists
When you use Flurry of Blows, your reach extends to 10ft and you deal additional damage equal to your Wisdom modifier.

My critique

The damage is, in general, too low on these abilities. Contrast the first ability with Open Hand's equivalent, which lets the monk force two saving throws by spending no extra ki on flurry.
The monk already targets CON saves with stunning strike, so the level 6 ought target something else.
The flurry of blows power up ought to be the level 3 ability, as with Open Hand. It's also too weak to be a level 17 ability.

[toapat]

Sorry for double posting.

personally im cool with it if its something like that. sometimes you have to update a thread after a period of time longer than is fair for an edit when its more + content.

Anyway, conceptually i think youre "treating the symptoms, not the problem"

Sunsoul is generally underwhelming not just because of the lack of range, but because their individual powers conflict with the base "Bruce Lee" monk.

Ive looked at monk before and considered why both 4E and Sunsoul get such a dismissal from the CharOp group, and its because Monk was never designed to accept subclasses in the way most other classes are. Both subclasses serve the same function: give the highest mobility class ranged options to fight with. sure they offensively compete, but you have natureal combat classfeatures.

But what is the point of Bruce Lee learning how to punch like Goku, Lee learned modern martial arts which focus on stunning strikes and Goku is renown for using a strategy of progressively increasingly violent punches to solve the problem.

Honestly, i feel like, similar to ranger, Monk is conceptually designed wrong in the long term perspective of 5E. Monk wants to be specific characters and not just general "I Know Kung FU > I know this Awesome Kung Fu". But i feel like it would have been better to approach monk's design in a way similar to the warlock, where you are a monk, but you build your own unique combination of Kung Fu over time from your choice of class and subclass and possibly even a spiritual journey.

[jaappleton]

My critique

The damage is, in general, too low on these abilities. Contrast the first ability with Open Hand's equivalent, which lets the monk force two saving throws by spending no extra ki on flurry.
The monk already targets CON saves with stunning strike, so the level 6 ought target something else.
The flurry of blows power up ought to be the level 3 ability, as with Open Hand. It's also too weak to be a level 17 ability.


I'd rather them be too low than too strong for a rough draft. I think when getting people to critique something, if it's underpowered, they'll want to work with you to bring it up to snuff. If it's too OP from the start, they'll just roll their eyes and not post most of the time. :smallbiggrin:

The original Sunsoul from older editions, that made me love it, was that it was a Monk with two unique things:

1) A good single target damage ability. A nova against a single target it. Monks typically are 'death by a thousand cuts', so the ability to do a good single target damage ability appealed to me.

2) A pretty good AoE (for a Monk).

And a huge part of me is leery about putting off that AoE ability until lv11 or lv17 because so many tables never get there. They don't. If I'm playing a character, I want to be able to do some cool **** when I'm playing, not for the one day I might finally see my capstone ability.

I agree that the AoE should likely target something else. Dex? Dex seems fine there.

So, with all that in mind, and my reasoning explained a bit, any other comments? Because I want this to be met with a thumbs up. Please, bring on the criticism. I want to work this thing out.

[toapat]

I agree that the AoE should likely target something else. Dex? Dex seems fine there.

changing it to Dex seems fine and acceptable.

generally to give you at least a drop of an idea asto what i have done with monk, these are some Ki Maneuvers i had come up with for possible purchase

http://i.imgur.com/BuMhriw.png

http://i.imgur.com/HIdnzs3.png

http://i.imgur.com/A3PA09d.png

[jaappleton]

I upped the damage on the lv6 feature from 3d6 to 4d6.

So it's cone is twice as big as Burning Hands, but adds the Blinded condition and is an Action, as opposed to SCAG's Bonus Action.

Fair?

[Garresh]

I'm not sure Sun Soul actually needs fixing, tbh. It is certainly not as strong as shadow or open hand, but its not actually bad either. It is thematic, but mechanically it fills a niche no other option covers. Mainly, NEGATION OF WEAKNESSES. Open hand specializes in control and adds sustain. Shadow makes you a ninja. Sun soul gives you a bunch of backup plans and ways to contribute when you're in a fight you normally struggle in. Monk ranged options aren't great tbh. Shortbows are on the table, but without any boosts it doesn't really hold up. Thrown daggers are an option but the limit on weapons drawn handicaps that as well, preventing extra attack unless you pre-draw. Then you only get one extra attack going forward.

Sun soul gives a decently high damage ranged attack. It's relatively short ranged, but it can be flurried and targets an excellent damage type. When facing annoying fliers it lets a monk keep up mostly.

Then theres the 6 and 11 options. These give monks an option vs hordes of mooks. Monks generally do hit and run with stuns, but aren't really great against hordes. This lets them contribute more in tbose cases.

Basically, all other subtypes leverage strengths. Sun soul compensates weaknesses. It's a sort of generalist gish subclass, and if you go in understanding that it won't be your primary mode when facing single stunnable monsters, you can still pull a lot of benefit from it.

[Lombra]

Just scream "ORA ORA ORA" whenever you make a flurry of radiant sun bolts and you fixed all your problems

[toapat]

Just scream "ORA ORA ORA" whenever you make a flurry of radiant sun bolts and you fixed all your problems

what reference is this? because Sun Soul is clearly a DBZ character

[Lombra]

what reference is this? because Sun Soul is clearly a DBZ character

The crunch is very similar to JoJo's bizarre adventures hamon/stand users. Great show, I recommend it.

[DracoKnight]

The crunch is very similar to JoJo's bizarre adventures hamon/stand users. Great show, I recommend it.

It lives up to the "Bizarre" part of the title. :smallbiggrin:

[jaappleton]

I worked with DracoKnight to modify it a bit. I'm on my phone, so I'm going to just do the cliff notes version.

Lv3
Spend 2 Ki to deal two additional martial arts damage die Radiant damage, up to a maximum of 5 Ki. (No action required, like Divine Smite)

Lv6
Action
Spend 3 Ki to unleash a blast of energy. 30ft Cone, 3d8 Radiant, Dex save. Half damage on a miss, blind until end of the next turn on a failed save. You can't spend more than Monk Lv / 2 (rounded down) worth of Ki on this ability.

Lv11
You can cast the spell Fire Shield for 4 Ki.

Lv17
Your Flurry of Blows reach extends to 10ft, and deals additional Radiant damage equal to your Wisdom Modifier.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I worked with DracoKnight to modify it a bit. I'm on my phone, so I'm going to just do the cliff notes version.

Lv3
Spend 2 Ki to deal two additional martial arts damage die Radiant damage, up to a maximum of 5 Ki. (No action required, like Divine Smite)

Lv6
Action
Spend 3 Ki to unleash a blast of energy. 30ft Cone, 3d8 Radiant, Dex save. Half damage on a miss, blind until end of the next turn on a failed save. You can't spend more than Monk Lv / 2 (rounded down) worth of Ki on this ability.

Lv11
You can cast the spell Fire Shield for 4 Ki.

Lv17
Your Flurry of Blows reach extends to 10ft, and deals additional Radiant damage equal to your Wisdom Modifier.
I actually like that a lot. Using fire shield is the only eyebrow raiser for me, but only because I haven't completely parsed its usefulness, tactically speaking. It's definitely cheaper than normal and can make a big splash versus specific enemies, though I'm wondering if it's going to see much play outside of those instances. I'd think opening yourself up to attacks would be the last thing you'd want to do, and spending nearly half your resources to do it when you first get it seems like a waste. The damage could only ever catch up to the smite-equivalent if you get hit in melee a lot.

[Easy_Lee]

I worked with DracoKnight to modify it a bit. I'm on my phone, so I'm going to just do the cliff notes version.

Lv3
Spend 2 Ki to deal two additional martial arts damage die Radiant damage, up to a maximum of 5 Ki. (No action required, like Divine Smite)

Lv6
Action
Spend 3 Ki to unleash a blast of energy. 30ft Cone, 3d8 Radiant, Dex save. Half damage on a miss, blind until end of the next turn on a failed save. You can't spend more than Monk Lv / 2 (rounded down) worth of Ki on this ability.

Lv11
You can cast the spell Fire Shield for 4 Ki.

Lv17
Your Flurry of Blows reach extends to 10ft, and deals additional Radiant damage equal to your Wisdom Modifier.

I'd move the level 17 to level 3 and everything else up one level. Flurry of blows enhancements ought to come early, since that's a big monk feature. Besides, you're only getting 10 extra damage out of it, tops, and this gives some extra strength to a monk who levels wisdom first.

[jaappleton]

I'd move the level 17 to level 3 and everything else up one level. Flurry of blows enhancements ought to come early, since that's a big monk feature. Besides, you're only getting 10 extra damage out of it, tops, and this gives some extra strength to a monk who levels wisdom first.

I understand what you're saying, about moving the Flurry enhancement down to lv3.

I also very much understand that honestly, it's a very un-exciting capstone.

My concern is that moving it to 3, and even moving Monk-Smite to 6, means a LOT of single target damage at low levels. Like, almost absurdly so. Assuming 18 Dex and 16 Wis at lv6, that's (1d6+4)*2 + (1d6+7)*2 = 50 damage in a round whenever you Flurry, assuming all four attacks hit. And that's not incorporating the Monk-Smite ability.

And while other classes are capable of reaching that level of damage output at the same level, they'd typically need Sharpshooter or GWM to get there, which costs a Feat and has a penalty to hit. This Monk would require neither.

[shuangwucanada]

Yes the bolt has disadvantage in melee range, and cannot trigger stunning strike. But keep in mind that you are still a monk. If you are in melee, you can always use melee attack and do stunning strikes.

I think sun soul monks are quite powerful, even better than other monks, because the bolt is a resource-free decent and stable ranged attack. You don't have to worry about your survival while doing decent damage. It would be an excellent choice for monk who doesn't have high wisdom.

[toapat]

I think sun soul monks are quite powerful

sun soul is lower damage outside of AoE but higher damage in AoE. it shares the same mechanical problem as 4E monk in that both subclasses bring different combat paths and no combat capacity improvement, combined with restricting your natural options in combat that were provided by monk.

conceptually, i feel monk is technically overspecialized in its capacities by default and should be built from the ground up as a much more modular class like warlock. i linked some work i had made for a rework i was doing earlier in the thread. i mostly stalled out because im not an Anime/Wushu buff who has seen all the source material