Ridiculously over optimized Duskblade

[Jack_McSnatch]

I just started a new campaign that will (hopefully) get to level 20 or beyond. My main villain was going to be a gestalt wizard/duskblade lich, but I got to wondering, how far can you bring the class by itself? With every book, every option available, can you make a Duskblade tier 2? Or even tier 1?

Focusing more on utility than combat prowess. He has that covered cause Duskblade. Multiclassing allowed, but he should be more Duskblade than anything else. Consider it his favoured class. Knowledge Devotion is basically a given, and Arcane Disciple would go a long way towards versatility. Arcane preperation would mean metamagic is a more viable option, but I'm not sure where to go from there.

Starting stats are;
Gray elf Duskblade, 2 flaws

Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 6
Int: 20
Wis: 14
Cha: 10

[Darrin]

With every book, every option available, can you make a Duskblade tier 2? Or even tier 1?


Bard 1/Duskblade 9/Sublime Chord 2/Aburant Champion 5/Ruathar 3

[Zaq]

Hmm. If we're sticking to the spirit of the exercise (more Duskblade than anything else), it'll be difficult for us to obtain spells of higher than 5th level. Perhaps even impossible, since that means that we aren't really getting the power from our Duskblade-ness. That's a pretty sharp cap on our bag of tricks.

A dip into Sandshaper seems like an easy way to drastically increase spells known, gaining a lot of utility in the process.

I feel like WBLmancy is probably going to be a major factor if we were actually going for "ridiculously over optimized," but I don't feel like bothering with that personally. How big a factor do you want that to be for the purposes of this discussion?

If we're truly sticking to level 5 spells and below, we basically need to find ways to hack additional spells onto our list, we need to find ways to make 5th level and lower spells punch above their weight class, and we need to find a way to deal with the fact that we're going to be rather sharply behind on spell levels compared to our full-caster friends.

I don't have an actual build skeleton in mind, so it's possible that the levels just wouldn't add up, but it feels like kind of an "easy way out" (not actually that easy, but still) would be to focus on an unnecessarily versatile spell and use classes that boost that spell. Like, y'know, hack Polymorph onto the list and dabble in Master Transmogrifist or something like that. Or maybe hack Silent Image onto the list and use Shadowcraft Mage to make it do things it should never be able to do. It's debatable whether the power is then coming from Duskblade or from Shadowcraft Mage, but if you're only using Duskblade slots to power Shadowcraft Mage's BS, that counts for something.

[J-H]

The Mother Cyst feat gets you a good selection of bbeg-suitable spells. Libris Mortis.

[Anthrowhale]

I'd prefer Heartfire Fanner 1 to Bard 1.

You might also think about Duskblade 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Duskblade 5 using Apprentice(Criminal) for access to Bluff as a class skill.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you're doing gestalt, there's always the Mind Mage! (sorry, I have to plug my favourite class whenever possible)


You can accelerate casting with Sublime Chord, and then throw on some levels of Swiftblade and Spelldancer.


Duskblade 6/Abjurant Champion 2/Heartfire Fanner 1/Spelldancer 1/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade 9.

Trade Ride for Tumble, and take Apprentice for Perform. You're burning a lot of feats (Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, Apprentice, Negotiator, Skill Focus (Perform)) to meet prerequisites. If one of these feats comes from a magical location (Heward's Hall can grant Skill Focus (Perform)), you can use your 1st/3rd/6th/9th-level feats plus your human bonus feat to get the rest. Okay, it's far from optimal, but it's funny to chain these PrCs, and you can still get Extend and Persist at 12 and 15, plus whatever flaws you want.

Overall, you end up with all sorcerer/wizard and bard spells up to 8ths, a caster level of 17, and a base attack bonus of 17 (or 18 with fractional). Your class features are serious, with persistomancy and an extra standard per turn, and you have Inspire Courage, which you can optimize up to +6 quite easily - Words of Creation conveniently requires charisma and intellegence, which are your casting stats.

[Gruftzwerg]

I did make a Shivering Touch Duskblade build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528541-Shivering-Tornado-of-Death-Arcane-Channeling-optimization) a few days ago. Maybe get some inspiration there. Arcane Channeling is a very powerful ability. This should bring him into the upper T3 league.
To get into T1/2, you need more spells (=utility) to handle special situations with ease. But since you are going for gestalt, that should be no problem. Just pick any T1 for the other side and go for full spell progression.

[ATHATH]

Can Duskblades channel spells from other classes? If so, take a Chameleon dip/splash and pilfer spells from all over the place (the Trapsmith list has some real gems (Haste as a 1st level spell!), by the way). If you need a boss fight later, perhaps have him cast that 4th level Disciple of Thrym spell that summons a couple of CR 11-ish giants (possibly with Extend slapped on) and then have your villain run/teleport away.

[logic_error]

Can Duskblades channel spells from other classes?
Yep.

In fact, the right search would be to check which source offers the most offensive touch power/spell. Someone already mentioned Chilling Touch. This maxed and empowered will drop many/most PCs/Dragons etc.

[Gruftzwerg]

Yep.

In fact, the right search would be to check which source offers the most offensive touch power/spell. Someone already mentioned Chilling Touch. This maxed and empowered will drop many/most PCs/Dragons etc.

It's "Shivering Touch". Does 3d6 Dex dmg, no Save, only SR and is usable for clvl/rounds. A "maximized Shivering Touch" will kill most things in a single hit. My build makes use of it. Combine it with Bloostorm Blade 2 and add Whirlwind to attack all enemies in 50ft range at once.

[logic_error]

It's "Shivering Touch". Does 3d6 Dex dmg, no Save, only SR and is usable for clvl/rounds. A "maximized Shivering Touch" will kill most things in a single hit. My build makes use of it. Combine it with Bloostorm Blade 2 and add Whirlwind to attack all enemies in 50ft range at once.

Oh yes, thanks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Can Duskblades channel spells from other classes?

Yes, there was actually a really silly Bard 1/ Duskblade 13/ Sublime Chord 3/ whatever build that used Arcane Channeling (full attack) with Whirlwind Attack, a spiked chain, various effects to increase reach, and Otto's Irresistible Dance. It's far from tier 1 or 2, but more in line with the spirit of what this is trying to accomplish.


A villain doesn't exactly need to be tier 1 or 2, even as a spellcaster, he just needs sufficient tools to accomplish his own goals and to pose a credible threat to the PCs when the time comes. For that reason, I would probably do something like....

OA Samurai 1/ Human Paragon 1/ Duskblade 15/ Incantatrix 3+, use Human Paragon to make UMD a class skill for his entire career. He got the Iron Will prerequisite for Incantatrix via the Otyugh Hole in CS.

OA Samruai's Daisho works the same way as Ancestral Relic for making a custom Runestaff but without the good alignment prerequisite, though he needs to be lawful aligned and appear to be honorable and courageous. It also only limits the effective enhancement bonus of what's added to the weapon, there's no level-based limit on magical effects that aren't priced as an enhancement bonus. Make his weapons a Quarterstaff (or Elvencraft Composite Longbow) and his Unarmed Strike, he can upgrade his fists with multiple instances of Spellblade, Defending, and various other passive effects. He should wield his weapon two-handed, make the offhand end (and bow portion) Defending as well, and the primary end should have Valorous, Speed, Spell Storing, and whatever else would be beneficial. It can also be made a magical staff with charges of spells, they don't need to be on his class spell list because he has UMD. Of course he can also make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) and put non-Duskblade spells on it and just UMD it each day when he attunes to it to emulate a class spell list the spells appear on to cast them using Duskblade spell slots. Give him Versatile Spellcaster and he can use up to 6th level spells from that.

Incantatrix is for Metamagic Effect: Persistent Spell shenanigans. There's actually nothing preventing Cooperative Metamagic from being used on your own spells as long as it's not during combat, since the only thing preventing this is the action economy system which only exists during initiative. Give him an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) (a ring (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528513-Best-Magical-Item-for-the-Item-Familiar-Feat#5)) and he should invest as many skill ranks as possible into it for the greatest skill bonus return possible. The invested skill ranks bonus should be dumped into Spellcraft until he can always succeed on the above Incantatrix abilities to persist his highest level spells by taking ten, then into UMD. The item familiar should have a special purpose and dedicated power (10d6 Fireball or Lightning Bolt, or Mass Inflict Light Wounds if it can designate the same creature as multiple targets) which it uses its own action every round to activate.

Give him Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk and a Monk's Belt to add his Int bonus to his AC. He can use Greater Luminous Armor (from the Runestaff) every day, Persistent Shield every day, and put Magic Vestment (from the Runestaff) on each of those effects every day. Combined with his Defending weapon bonuses and various other effects that improve his AC, he should be very difficult to hit. He should use (Rod of) Extended Superior Resistance every day for +6 to his saving throws. Persistent Spell with Swift Fly and Expeditious Retreat and Swift Haste is quite good, especially if he also buffs himself with Cloud Wings, all from the Runestaff of course. Be sure he's protected from Greater Dispel Magic via a Spellblade enchantment on his fists, and give him a Ring of Enduring Arcana (or he added it to the Item Familiar). Have him persist at least one Magic Circle spell so he's basically immune to any summoned creatures.

He can use Persistent Spell with Death Armor and Fire Shield (twice, hot and cold) with metamagic feats like Fell Frighten Spell and Fell Drain Spell added onto those. I'd just use Fell Frighten on all three, since a given opponent is only affected by the metamagic the first time they're damaged by each spell. That makes anyone who hits him with a melee attack and and takes damage from all three become Shaken > Frightened > Panicked for ten rounds. Also include the Karmic- and Heart Of- lines of spells in CM, and the Primal- line of spells in Dragon Magic. Arcane Spellsurge is also a superb choice if he has a lot of efficient crowd controls on his Runestaff (Kelpstrand, Solid Fog, Call Avalanche, etc.). You may also want to exploit the Snowsight + Obscuring Snow combo in Frostburn.

If you want to pull some serious shenanigans, say he retrained or had a Psion use Psychic Reformation on him a few times. One of those times he took the following feats: Snowcasting, Sudden Widen Spell, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Metamagic School Focus: Divination, and Practiced Spellcaster. He cast a Sudden Widened Snowcast Detect Magic, Heightened to an 8th level spell (Versatile Spellcaster two 5th slots for a 6th, Metamagic School Focus it counts as 7th, Earth Spell it counts as 8th and gets +7 caster level), and cast Permanency on that. He got another Psychic Reformation and picked up Flash Frost Spell, Energy Substitution: Electricity, Born of the Three Thunders, Fell Drain Spell, Fell Frighten Spell, and Fell Weaken Spell, and used Metamagic Effect from Incantatrix to apply each of those to that Detect Magic. Give him the Swift Concentration skill trick in CS, and once per encounter he can concentrate on that as a swift action to produce the following spell effect:

120-ft. cone, 8th level Divination, DC 18+ability mod, SR: No, caster level 27.
Flash Frost: Area of effect is covered in a thin layer of ice for one* round, anyone attempting to move through must make a DC 10 Balance check or fall prone, anyone attempting to run or charge through this area must instead make a DC 20 Balance check or fall prone. *Flash Frost Spell says one round, but this could be affected by anything that changes the modified the spell's duration, such as Permanency. The spell also deals 16 damage, but see below.
Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, Fell Weaken: Anyone damaged by the spell gains one negative level, becomes Shaken for 10 rounds, and takes a -4 penalty to their Strength score for ten rounds. There's no saving throw for any of these effects. These effects may penalize an affected creature's saving throws for subsequent effects.
Energy Substitution, Three Thunders: The spell's damage is converted to half electric, half sonic, so anyone in the cone takes 8 electric damage and 8 sonic damage. Anyone damaged by the spell must make a Fort save at the spell's DC or be stunned for 1 round, anyone who fails that must also make a Reflex save at the spell's DC or be knocked prone.

The Fell Drain/Frighten/Weaken effects only work on a given creature the first time they're damaged by the spell, so using it more than once is a bit redundant. It's still very powerful for a swift action, as it modifies the battlefield (possibly permanently), debuffs multiple opponents in a huge area of effect, and could possibly even stun them and knock them prone.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In terms of pure gish power, it's hard to argue with something like Duskblade 5/Sand Shaper 1/Duskblade +4/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist (or any full casting) 3. That gets you
0 lv Bard spells
1st-3rd level Duskblade and Sand Shaper spells
4th-9th level Sorcerer and Bard spells
+16 BAB
Arcane Channeling
Inspire Courage
Cl=BAB for all spells
Quick-casting abjurations, and 1 spell/day

[logic_error]

Don't forget that a duskblade with one level of the wizard can persist wraithstrike.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Don't forget that a duskblade with one level of the wizard can persist wraithstrike.
That would be pretty difficult, considering it's +6 metamagic on a 2nd level spell. You could use Precocious Apprentice to cast it anyway, I guess, but you'll need a crapton more work to persist it.

[ben-zayb]

We can also skip the pretense of using Duskblade in spirit and go Duskblade 1 / <insert T1 class> 19.

[logic_error]

We can also skip the pretense of using Duskblade in spirit and go Duskblade 1 / <insert T1 class> 19.

I agree. Buit either way, the duskblade ability to channel would be the signature. I would personally go Eldritch Knight, spellsword to advance the T1 though. So there is no loss of BAB.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You need at least Duskblade 3 for channeling.

Otherwise... well... ridiculously over optimized will always mean more casting; that's just how the game works. Otherwise, Knowledge Devotion + Power Attack + spell list expansion, as usual. Arcane Disciple, Sand Shaper 1, Prestige Bard 1, Exalted Arcanist 2, Runestaffs + UMD... there's a whole list (http://web.archive.org/web/20160324165843/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=duj0bkno4cp52tq30019s2glr7&topic=2777.0).

[ben-zayb]

You need at least Duskblade 3 for channeling.Thing is, channeling is a non-factor for bringing the Duskblade closer to t1/t2, which is what the original poster was asking for. As mentioned in the original post, combat prowess isn't even the build's priority--utility is.

[logic_error]

Thing is, channeling is a non-factor for bringing the Duskblade closer to t1/t2, which is what the original poster was asking for. As mentioned in the original post, combat prowess isn't even the build's priority--utility is.

Yeah, but if the character does not use Channelling it's not a duskblade. Why even do this route then? Why not just play a cleric/druid/wizard?

[ben-zayb]

Yeah, but if the character does not use Channelling it's not a duskblade. Why even do this route then? Why not just play a cleric/druid/wizard?I refer to you to my initial post upthread, then.

I mean, really, is that such an absurd inevitability? I've seen suggestions of Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest (possibly theurging), both of which, despite clearly Tier 1 or 2 on their own with or without channeling, have nothing to do with Duskblade at all. If it's Channeling that you're obsessing with, then we can go with a still=-slightly pretentious Duskblade 3 / <insert T1 or T2 class> 17.

[SpamCreateWater]

Duskblade 13 / IotSFV 7. You'd need to take the Extra Spell feat - or, depending on your DM, carry a staff/item that gives one to you - so that you can get that 2nd Abjuration spell of 4th level.

Though, now that I think on it, Extra Spell wouldn't work if you're playing straight 3.5 as you need that feat at 13th level. 12th level and retrain won't work, because you're not legally able to choose a 4th level spell at 12th level... are you? I'm getting confused on 3.5/PF...