Mimic PC

[martixy]

A player of mine wishes to play a mimic(monk of all things).

There are two things that I could use some advice on:
a) The mimic lacks an LA entry. What would be a good LA?
Theoretical musings: Mimic is large, so that alone accounts for 1 LA. Then we have all of his special abilities, one of which is somewhat unique in being Ex shapeshifting. Besides that it has a good set of racial ability adjustments, which discounting its large size are: DEX+4, CON+2, WIS +2, +3 AC(nat). I initially placed it at +4(from its CR), but I am now leaning more towards +3. Also, they have a speed of 10(which is part of why he decided to take monk).

b) What are the limits of its shapeshifting ability? I.e. what could he reasonably take the shape of and what would be going out of line?

[Grod_The_Giant]

A) Umm... +1 LA for large, +1 for stats, +1 for specials sounds about right. I'm generally inclined to keep LAs low; there quickly comes a point where the reduced hit die start to overshadow anything else you're getting.

B) It actually looks fairly limited. You can't get bigger or smaller, so you're stuck filling that 150 cubic feet. You can change your appearance, but not your actual texture... which to me can be extrapolated to mean that you can't really change the physical properties of your body. You're also explicitly limited to "objects," so no Alter Self type shennanigans. So, basically, you're limited to big objects that always feel rough to the touch.

Depending on starting level, Gazebo Jones (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9823824) might be an appropriate conventional* substitute? The basic idea is to take 4 levels of Thrall of Jubliex as a Construct (like a Warforged), giving you Alter Self at-will into Constructs... including up to large animated objects. The shapeshifting bit kicks in at 10th.


*As conventional as a build that involves turning yourself into a carpet and tripping people with yourself gets, at least.

[Inevitability]

1) +3 LA? That's going to make the PC weak in any but the least optimized games, especially when combined with monk. A LA of +0, or perhaps +1 if your game calls for it, would be more than enough.

2) That's not really defined anywhere in the rules apart from the ability itself. I'd talk about it with the player. Ask what he'd like to be able to turn into, tell him what you consider reasonable, and agree on a number of limits.

[martixy]

Addressing Inevitability's point:
The game setup is somewhat complicated, but suffice to say it is constructed in such a way to make monstrous PCs eminently playable. Even LA+4 viable, I just didn't want to shaft the player. This was my initial assessment based on how PF allows playable monster characters, though when I re-read the actual rules, I discovered that's not how it works(it enables a character to have more HD than their ECL, which is not a place I wanna go ATM).
Speaking of PF, he's using the unchained monk, combined with the martial variant from Dragon Mag(though without abusing it). That makes him enough of a viable character, even without all of the other allowances for monster PCs.

The shapeshifting ability, as presented does indeed seem fairly limited. I was actually contemplating allowing him a -10/-15 penalty to disguise checks for the ability to impersonate creatures.

Edit: I saw the LA-assignment thread. In a normal game, I believe LA+2 would be a good approximation. The low speed does indeed create a lot of barriers, but frankly I don't think it's enough to drop it all the way to LA+0.

[Inevitability]

Addressing Inevitability's point:
The game setup is somewhat complicated, but suffice to say it is constructed in such a way to make monstrous PCs eminently playable. Even LA+4 viable, I just didn't want to shaft the player. This was my initial assessment based on how PF allows playable monster characters, though when I re-read the actual rules, I discovered that's not how it works(it enables a character to have more HD than their ECL, which is not a place I wanna go ATM).
Speaking of PF, he's using the unchained monk, combined with the martial variant from Dragon Mag(though without abusing it). That makes him enough of a viable character, even without all of the other allowances for monster PCs.

The shapeshifting ability, as presented does indeed seem fairly limited. I was actually contemplating allowing him a -10/-15 penalty to disguise checks for the ability to impersonate creatures.

Edit: I saw the LA-assignment thread. In a normal game, I believe LA+2 would be a good approximation. The low speed does indeed create a lot of barriers, but frankly I don't think it's enough to drop it all the way to LA+0.

Let's imagine a ECL 7 mimic in a party of 'normal' level 7 PCs. In what ways do you think the mimic will be too strong, and will make the game unfun for the other players?

[martixy]

Let's imagine a ECL 7 mimic in a party of 'normal' level 7 PCs. In what ways do you think the mimic will be too strong, and will make the game unfun for the other players?

Oh, right. RHD.
Under that condition I'd actually put the mimic at -3 LA. :smallbiggrin:

[Mike Miller]

Negative LA can be a dangerous thing though. It can lead to shenanigans without too much effort if the levels are high enough.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The stats are pretty weak, actually. It's got decent Str and Con bonuses, most of which you could attribute to being large-sized. And...that's basically it.

Considering the 7 Aberration HD (which are pretty weak monster HD; there's a reason this thing has a CR of a little more than half its HD while as an outsider is generally 1:1), that alone will probably cripple a PC more than the mimic's abilities will help, so LA +0 seems fine.
I'd suggest doing what I do for monster HD: Allow the x4 skill point multiplier to be delayed until the first class HD.y,

Monk is a very weak class, too. Do you houserule to improve Monk? It really needs the help. Player should look at Warshaper PrC, it's fun and powerful and works nicely with his mimic shape ability. He could enter it immediately after the mimic RHD are finished.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oh, I guess you probably are keeping the monster HD? I wasn't sure. If so, then yeah, absolutely LA+0, in which case you're effectively talking about a class like so:

d8 HD, medium BAB, one good save, crappy skill points
Large size
Speed penalty
Net stats of +8 Str, +2 Dex, +6 Con, and +2 Wis
+5 NA
Constrict
An inescapable auto-grapple, which will admittedly probably be scarier on a PC than a monster
Mi-mi-mi-mimic! (http://rustyandco.com/comic/13/)

Which is... honestly a pretty decent setup for a melee type. With the Con bonus, those are effectively bigger than the Barbarian's die, the big Str bonus more than makes up for the medium BAB, that's some excellent NA, a good Will save makes up for a common bruiser weakness, Adhesive is hecka nasty if you're trying to grapple dudes, and Mimic Shape is useful for utility. I'd be comfortable calling a seven-level Mimic class balanced Tier 3ish.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm not denying that Adhesive is good. It's the most appealing part of mimic to me, more so than the shapechanging (other than the fact that it opens up Warshaper).

But is it really that much better than Scorpion's Grasp feat + optimized grapple check? Sure, you can automatically enter into and remain grappling with someone. But if you actually want to do anything (pin, move the person, etc..) you're still going to need to actually win a grapple check, so you're going to be optimizing your grapple bonus anyway. Just seems like you could take the feat and put those 7 HD to better use optimizing your grappling powers, such as with Black Blood Cultist levels for the Savage Grapple class feature.

Str bonus doesn't make up for being behind an iterative attack and waiting longer for BAB feat requirements, IMO. I know Monk is also 3/4 BAB anyway, but...it really shouldn't be, so meh.

[martixy]

The stats are pretty weak, actually. It's got decent Str and Con bonuses, most of which you could attribute to being large-sized. And...that's basically it.

Considering the 7 Aberration HD (which are pretty weak monster HD; there's a reason this thing has a CR of a little more than half its HD while as an outsider is generally 1:1), that alone will probably cripple a PC more than the mimic's abilities will help, so LA +0 seems fine.
I'd suggest doing what I do for monster HD: Allow the x4 skill point multiplier to be delayed until the first class HD.y,

Monk is a very weak class, too. Do you houserule to improve Monk? It really needs the help. Player should look at Warshaper PrC, it's fun and powerful and works nicely with his mimic shape ability. He could enter it immediately after the mimic RHD are finished.


Oh, I guess you probably are keeping the monster HD?

Right, well... I already mentioned some of the tweaks, but I guess I'll just list everything then:
1. Gestalt (the second side is supportive to the monk, also indeterminate past the first few levels - there's a swordsage level and a couple of RHDs in there for now)
2. 3 free LA/RHD(essentially a limited 3rd gestalt lane)
3. Only half RHD(round down) - in this case 3, though they offer other benefits(can double prestige per RHD)
4. LA buyoff
5. PF's unchained monk granting high BAB, among tons of other things. He's also taking martial monk to help with his feat selection.
6. PF's feat progression(and flaws allowed)
7. PF's skill systems(meaning many merged skills, meaning your skill points go farther)
8. Many feat taxes such as Power Attack, Combat expertise can be "bought" with BAB.
9. Many merged/improved feats such as Dodge/Mobility, combat maneuver feats.
10. A few mundane-only perks.

I hope you'll agree this is more than enough to both allow playing a monstrous character, have him perform well and be fun(i.e. have plenty options, both in and out of combat).

P.S. Thanks for the Warshaper suggestion. That sounds fun.