Can the Psionic power Astral Seed be dispelled or disjuntioned

[mctizic]

I was told by players that if I used the Astral Seed + Mind Switch (Astral Seed specifically mentions permanently stealing someone's body this way). Kill my old body to gain a new permanent form, then someone can dispell or disjunction me back to a psicrystal with only 1 hp.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Mind switch has a duration of 10 minutes per level. It can be dispelled or disjoined.
True mind switch has a duration of instantaneous. It cannot be dispelled or disjoined, and its effects last forever.

[mctizic]

I cast Astral Seed, next mind switched with another creature, had someone kill me. Astral Seed specifically gives you the same body you had when you manifested it, with all the powers you had in that body.


Astral Seed power states:


Conceivably, you could manifest mind switch to utilize a temporary body, but only an evil creature would smash his own temporarily empty storage crystal to permanently usurp a subject’s organic body (unless the subject is itself irredeemably evil).



Does that mean that i get the new body permanently?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I cast Astral Seed, next mind switched with another creature, had someone kill me. Astral Seed specifically gives you the same body you had when you manifested it, with all the powers you had in that body.


Astral Seed power states:


Conceivably, you could manifest mind switch to utilize a temporary body, but only an evil creature would smash his own temporarily empty storage crystal to permanently usurp a subject’s organic body (unless the subject is itself irredeemably evil).



Does that mean that i get the new body permanently?

It sounds like it.

The real trick is to combine Astral Seed with Fusion; you can basically become a Pun Pun lite.

Edit: You keep the abilities of the creature you fused with when you die and reform. Rinse and repeat for ultimate power.

Astral Seed is also Instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled.

[Necroticplague]

No, it can't. Astral seed is Instantaneous, meaning that magic/psionic energy is only used at the moment of casting. The ensuing seed (and resultant body made using the seed) are entirely nonmagical. Just like how you can't dispel a wall of stone or a resurrection, you can't dispel an astral seed or a body it creates.

[mctizic]

Thier agrument is that since mind switch has a limited duration. It can be dispelled...

[ColorBlindNinja]

Thier agrument is that since mind switch as a limited duration. It can be dispelled...

That shouldn't matter as long Astral Seed has already regenerated you in your new body.

[mctizic]

Here's another question? I Polymorphed Any Object on a Colossal corpse making it a smaller size. I paid to have it Resurrected. Then I Astral Seed + Mind Switch.

The party states that the Polymorphed size can still be dispelled since it is a magic effect. I argued that since it is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed the size couldn't be dispelled.


Who's right?

[Necroticplague]

....where's the question in that? That's a few statements, but no question.

[mctizic]

....where's the question in that? That's a few statements, but no question.



Here's another question? I Polymorphed Any Object on a Colossal corpse making it a smaller size. I paid to have it Resurrected. Then I Astral Seed + Mind Switch.

The party states that the Polymorphed size can still be dispelled since it is a magic effect. I argued that since it is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed the size couldn't be dispelled.


Who's right?

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you were occupying a temporarily enlarged body at the time of casting astral seed, you would have that size nonmagically after you die and regrow your body--it could not be dispelled. Astral seed does not recreate your original body, like resurrection would--it creates a perfect copy of whatever body you happened to occupy at the time of casting.

[mctizic]

If you were occupying a temporarily enlarged body at the time of casting astral seed, you would have that size nonmagically after you die and regrow your body--it could not be dispelled. Astral seed does not recreate your original body, like resurrection would--it creates a perfect copy of whatever body you happened to occupy at the time of casting.

With that point you're saying that every forum I read about using Metamorphosis (Greater) to achieve the new form is incorrect?

You're also saying that the posts about Fusion+Astral seed combo is incorrect too?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?504925-Fusion-Astral-seed-Spellcasting&highlight=Metamorphosis+astral+seed

[Necroticplague]

If you were occupying a temporarily enlarged body at the time of casting astral seed, you would have that size nonmagically after you die and regrow your body--it could not be dispelled. Astral seed does not recreate your original body, like resurrection would--it creates a perfect copy of whatever body you happened to occupy at the time of casting.


With that point you're saying that every forum I read about using Metamorphosis (Greater) to achieve the new form is incorrect?

You're also saying that the posts about Fusion+Astral seed combo is incorrect too?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?504925-Fusion-Astral-seed-Spellcasting&highlight=Metamorphosis+astral+seed
.......his post seems to be re-affirming the idea your could use temporary form-changing effects, and then basically use Astral Seed to make them permanent and nonmagical, not saying that's incorrect.

In response to your question: assuming your Mind Switched into the creature first, then Astral Seeded (minor point of etuiqette/formatting: when listing combos, it's typically clearer if you list them in the order the elements come into play), you would get a duplicate of it's body when you used Astral Seed to respawn. The body is identical to as it was when you were in it. The original magic is not involved, so you cannot Disjoint or Dispel it.

[DeTess]

Though I don't see any issue with the mind-switch->astral seed method to get a new body, I would like to point out that a GM might argue that the 'perfect copy' of the body you where occupying includes all ongoing effects that weren't part of what kills you, which would mean that buffs and polymorphs would still be magical effects on the body, rather than things now ingrained in your new form.

As always with somewhat cheesy tricks like this: ask your DM first, as it's less likely to get banned or rule-zeroed if you discuss it during session 0, rather than if you try to spring it on him in the middle of game-play.

[Zanos]

I was told by players that if I used the Astral Seed + Mind Switch (Astral Seed specifically mentions permanently stealing someone's body this way). Kill my old body to gain a new permanent form, then someone can dispell or disjunction me back to a psicrystal with only 1 hp.
This is not what was said.

From Astral Seed:

Conceivably, you could manifest mind switch to utilize a temporary body, but only an evil creature would smash his own temporarily empty storage crystal to permanently usurp a subject’s organic body (unless the subject is itself irredeemably evil).

The argument was that if you use this portion of astral seed to permanently mind switch with a creature, then the mind switch can be dispelled. From the text of mind switch, if it ends when your original body is out of range, you die. Dispelling or even supressing the mind switch therefore kills you.


Though I don't see any issue with the mind-switch->astral seed method to get a new body, I would like to point out that a GM might argue that the 'perfect copy' of the body you where occupying includes all ongoing effects that weren't part of what kills you, which would mean that buffs and polymorphs would still be magical effects on the body, rather than things now ingrained in your new form.
Correct. An "Exact Duplicate" is exact. Durations are part of abilities. You can't use astral seed to gain permanent or instantaneous buffs, because an exact copy necessarily includes the duration of those buffs.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Correct. An "Exact Duplicate" is exact. Durations are part of abilities. You can't use astral seed to gain permanent or instantaneous buffs, because an exact copy necessarily includes the duration of those buffs.
Incorrect. Spells that affect your body are not recreated by astral seed, only the resultant body, possessing all the abilities it had when astral seed was manifested. Stats and abilities do not generally carry their source with them. An ability temporarily granted by a spell and an ability permanently gained through levels are indistinguishable to abilities that interact with them.

[icefractal]

There's three separate things here.

1) Astral Seed can arguably be used to "launder" temporary effects into permanent ones, because of this part:
... an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed (the crystal itself breaks down and becomes a part of the new organic body). When the tenth day ends, you completely and totally inhabit the new body. You possess all the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested, at one level lower ...I don't recommend ruling this way, because it makes Astral Seed into Persistent spell on steroids (similar to a slower Alter Reality, in fact), and will break the hell out of the game. The most RAW ruling would be that the effects do carry over, but so does their limited duration.


2) Astral Seed mentions making Mind Switch permanent by smashing the crystal containing the switched mind.
Conceivably, you could manifest mind switch to utilize a temporary body, but only an evil creature would smash his own temporarily empty storage crystal to permanently usurp a subject’s organic body (unless the subject is itself irredeemably evil).This is not normally something Mind Switch could do, so it's either a mistake or a special rule about the interaction of those two particular spells.


3) Fusion is a special case, and might work even if #1 is ruled not to apply in general, because it isn't "you" manifesting Astral Seed it's "the fused creature". As with #1, I don't think is a good route to go either, it's basically Pun-Pun lite. The RAW way to deny it would be - "Sure, it works. But if it's a new creature and not the PC, then you (the player) don't get to control it as your avatar, any more than you'd get to control a deity you mention in your backstory." But that still leaves NPCs using it, so better to say it doesn't work outright, IMO.

[ExLibrisMortis]

1) Astral Seed can arguably be used to "launder" temporary effects into permanent ones, because of this part:I don't recommend ruling this way, because it makes Astral Seed into Persistent spell on steroids (similar to a slower Alter Reality, in fact), and will break the hell out of the game. The most RAW ruling would be that the effects do carry over, but so does their limited duration.
Confusing RAW and RAI there :smalltongue:. In any case, I would definitely not houserule that the effects of ongoing spell effects carry over. Just rule that astral seed functions as resurrection. Ongoing spell effects would not carry over through a resurrection, so mirror that in astral seed. Much cleaner rule, with a minimum of possible shenanigans (I'm thinking forced dream + astral seed would break an effects-carry-through ruling quite badly).

On the balance front, do keep in mind that astral seed costs you a level each time you use it (barring independently broken barghest/thought bottle cheese). That means it's not like Alter Reality as much as it is like template stacking. Absurdly powerful when used well, but it can be quite balanced in the right campaign.

[icefractal]

On the balance front, do keep in mind that astral seed costs you a level each time you use it (barring independently broken barghest/thought bottle cheese). That means it's not like Alter Reality as much as it is like template stacking. Absurdly powerful when used well, but it can be quite balanced in the right campaign.You don't need one Astral Seed per effect though, you can have a bunch of people buffing you and then use a single Astral Seed to launder it (if allowed).

As for RAW - it's kind of ambiguous. I agree that "all inherent abilities" is the reading more in line with similar effects, but there's not really a proof I can think of it that it wouldn't be all abilities. But even if it is all abilities, that would include the duration too.

As for Forced Dream - just say no to time travel. Like NI amounts of minions or contingencies, it makes the game literally unresolvable. "Time travel" which is basically a portal to another plane flavored as "the past" or "the future" with only limited means of the two interacting, that's fine. But stay away from the real stuff.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You don't need one Astral Seed per effect though, you can have a bunch of people buffing you and then use a single Astral Seed to launder it (if allowed).

As for RAW - it's kind of ambiguous. I agree that "all inherent abilities" is the reading more in line with similar effects, but there's not really a proof I can think of it that it wouldn't be all abilities. But even if it is all abilities, that would include the duration too.

As for Forced Dream - just say no to time travel. Like NI amounts of minions or contingencies, it makes the game literally unresolvable. "Time travel" which is basically a portal to another plane flavored as "the past" or "the future" with only limited means of the two interacting, that's fine. But stay away from the real stuff.
True, it's very much a matter of how much you can get for a ten-minute window. For the record, I don't actually recommend using astral seed even in a non-broken way. Or forced dream shenanigans, for that matter. But they're really awesome nonetheless.

But, the duration thing, that's slightly missing the point. An ability does not have a duration. You either have it, or you don't. Astral seed copies all abilities that you had at the time of casting. It does not copy the effects that granted them (they are not abilities, but ongoing effects).

[icefractal]

But, the duration thing, that's slightly missing the point. An ability does not have a duration. You either have it, or you don't. Astral seed copies all abilities that you had at the time of casting. It does not copy the effects that granted them (they are not abilities, but ongoing effects).That distinction is never specified, possibly because it only comes up in edge cases like this. On a micro-level, something like Spider Climb could be thought of three ways:

A) It adds the ability "climb speed 20', no checks required" to the target. When it ends, the ability is removed.

B) It adds the ability "climb speed 20', no checks required, while the spell lasts" to the target.

C) It adds nothing to the target. When something cares about the target's ability to climb, it combines the target's base abilities with all of the spells currently on the target.

They're all about equally supported (which is not say, not gone into at all). Since interpretation A gives us Pun-Pun Jr., I'd suggest going with B or C.