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puppyavenger
2007-08-06, 11:41 AM
In my campagn the PC's were ambushed by bandits, When the cheif went through the "give us your money" speech, The sorcerer who he was talking to said he was going to stab him through the throat. Of course he rolled a nat 20. So what happens since 12 damage plus s trength bonus from a papier shoudln't kill him?

rollfrenzy
2007-08-06, 11:44 AM
Whatever you want, since it's your game.

If you want him to die, he dies, who cares how Many hitpoints he has.

if you want him to live, the player just missed the artery and cut his neck and and now he's upset.

But basically, you're in charge. What do YOU want to happen?

PlatinumJester
2007-08-06, 11:46 AM
Say "you can't do that because

A. It would count as coup de grace but he isn't helpless so it's against the rules

B. He has some form of armor around his neck

C. I'm the DM and I said so. Stab him somewhere else or no where at all

D. Say he can stab his neck but there is so much flab due to him being Ye Olde McDonalds lover that you cannot reach any fat clogged ateries or veins.

Krellen
2007-08-06, 11:47 AM
Hit points are a representation of a character's ability to avoid critical damage, or supernatural toughness. (You won't find this in the SRD, but it's in the fluff on hit points in the PHB.) Thus, as the damage is non-lethal, the bandit leader is wary and experienced enough to pull back his head, or twist with the thrust, or some other such manoeuvre that leaves him with a nasty scratch on his throat/face, but otherwise perfectly combat-able.

puppyavenger
2007-08-06, 11:51 AM
Thanks for the rationilization krellen.

Tallis
2007-08-06, 12:09 PM
Also keep in mind that being stabbed in the throat wouldn't necessarily be lethal. I've met a former undercover cop who had his throat slashed twice and lived. Without medical attention the bandit will probably die, but it doesn't have to be an immediate thing.

goat
2007-08-06, 12:25 PM
"Your blade slides into the bandit chief's throat, performing a textbook tracheotomy. The bandit looks shocked for a second before realising he can still breathe, and proceeds to cleave your left kidney out of your body."

Today's lesson: You're a sorcerer, not a melee-ist.

daggaz
2007-08-06, 01:07 PM
Not to mention, there are no called shots in DnD, not any more. Made it way too easy to one shot monsters.... "I shoot out its eyes" "I ham-string it so it cant chase after us..." etc, etc...

So even tho your player says "I stab him in the throat," the mechanics only allow him to attempt to "hit" the opponent. A successful attack means he loses some hitpoints.. So everything else, the descriptions given above, are just clever fluff to make the game more interesting and alive.

LordVader
2007-08-06, 01:12 PM
Yes, like it was said before, he can't make an attack that would be fatal unless the opponent is helpless and he is coup de gracing him. Since he isn't, all the sorcerer did was wound a likely now very irritated bandit chief.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-08-06, 03:26 PM
This has pretty much been covered, but just to make it clear.

What happens is this:

Bandit chief: "Give us all your money or..."
Sorcerer: "I stab him in the throat."
DM: "Okay, roll inititive."

Then play it as a standard combat.

When somebody makes an aggressive action, you drop into combat time and follow the combat rules.

Alternatively, if you want to be mean, you could play it as...

"I stab him in the throat"
"Before you can reach him, one of the bandits shoots you in the heart."

If nothing else, it should illustrate to the guy precisely why you have *rules* for this sort of thing.

Deepblue706
2007-08-06, 03:48 PM
Well, if there were a bunch of bandits around the PCs....

I'd say they'd have actions readied to fill the PCs with arrows if they made any aggressive movements.

Though this has already been said: My remedy for situations where PCs call shots involves the character acting out what the player desired (ie aim for the throat), but limitations and mitigators cause the attack to fall elsewhere, if the target has so much HP that the PC's attack would fail to deal as much damage as the action would suggest. In this scenario, I'd say the sorcerer would swing his knife to where the bandit leader's neck would have been, but he is able to react in time to defend himself, and the blow lands somewhere else (perhaps the shoulder). Natural 20 means automatic hit, but not automatic success no-matter-what-it-is-you're-doing.

enderrocksonall
2007-08-06, 03:57 PM
Coming off of this situation, does anyone have any suggestions for making a called shots system that is difficult enough that players won't be using it all the time, but powerful enough that it could really change the tide of the battle?

TheDarkOne
2007-08-06, 04:09 PM
Well, if there were a bunch of bandits around the PCs....

I'd say they'd have actions readied to fill the PCs with arrows if they made any aggressive movements.

You can not ready actions out side of combat, unless you're have the ability from the Bloodhound prc that explicitly allows you to ready actions outside combat against your mark. There's a pretty simple rational behind this, readying outside combat amounts to saying "If combat starts, I'm going to go first", which is stupid, because that's what initiative is for.

X15lm204
2007-08-06, 08:09 PM
In this sort of situation I would call a surprise round and let the sorceror and any bandits who were aiming bows/swords attack normally. No called shots, no auto-crits, no coup de grace. Someone who is looking for an excuse to kill you and take your stuff isn't just going to let you stab them. :smallwink:

goat
2007-08-06, 08:46 PM
You can not ready actions out side of combat, unless you're have the ability from the Bloodhound prc that explicitly allows you to ready actions outside combat against your mark. There's a pretty simple rational behind this, readying outside combat amounts to saying "If combat starts, I'm going to go first", which is stupid, because that's what initiative is for.

I'd say that bandits stood with readied bows pointed at the PCs while their leader states his demands may well constitute being in a combat situation. If they've been properly ambushed, the PC's will probably still have sheathed weapons. In a way, they're in an extended surprise round speaking as a free action.

MrNexx
2007-08-06, 09:29 PM
You can not ready actions out side of combat, unless you're have the ability from the Bloodhound prc that explicitly allows you to ready actions outside combat against your mark. There's a pretty simple rational behind this, readying outside combat amounts to saying "If combat starts, I'm going to go first", which is stupid, because that's what initiative is for.

For all intents and purposes, combat HAS begun... the bandits are simply choosing not to take their surprise round actions immediately, while their leader makes an intimidate check (with a circumstance bonus for "Large number of people with weapons ready to fire.").

Deepblue706
2007-08-06, 09:31 PM
You can not ready actions out side of combat, unless you're have the ability from the Bloodhound prc that explicitly allows you to ready actions outside combat against your mark. There's a pretty simple rational behind this, readying outside combat amounts to saying "If combat starts, I'm going to go first", which is stupid, because that's what initiative is for.

Not even during a Surprise round? I was under the assumption the bandits surrounded the PCs and then the leader started talking...

Diggorian
2007-08-06, 10:12 PM
The surprise round is in combat, so you can can ready a standard act as your action in the surprise round.

How the combat could've gone down is if no one sees the bandits they roll initiative amongst themselves then ready to attack with bows if the party doesnt comply, while the leader readies to attack also but takes the free action to say "Halt and disarm!!".

At this point initiative is rolled for all and the players have to decide what to do in turn.

Seems like Puppyavenger handled it as a scene at first letting the bandits come out of hiding then begining the bad guy speech. The sorceror's attack, if they were allowed to respond by drawing weapons or had them out already, would trigger initiative since all were aware of everyone else.

Still, the stab to the throat that doesnt kill someone is glancing thrust to the neck. If it lowered him to negative HP I'd let the description carry.

Dementrius
2007-08-07, 01:28 AM
Coming off of this situation, does anyone have any suggestions for making a called shots system that is difficult enough that players won't be using it all the time, but powerful enough that it could really change the tide of the battle?

Just use the Power Attack mechanic, with "Called Shot" fluff. Basically you have a reduced chance to hit for additional damage, and only a trained warrior will be able to pull it off.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-08-07, 04:36 AM
You can not ready actions out side of combat, unless you're have the ability from the Bloodhound prc that explicitly allows you to ready actions outside combat against your mark. There's a pretty simple rational behind this, readying outside combat amounts to saying "If combat starts, I'm going to go first", which is stupid, because that's what initiative is for.

It amounts to saying "knowing that combat is very likely, I am keeping myself ready for it, and putting myself in an advantageous position such that I am likely to 'go first' (or whatever the in-character equivalent is) when and if it starts." Which strikes me as highly reasonable.

Otherwise, a bunch of guys pointing crossbows at you become even less of a threat than they already are.

Ethdred
2007-08-07, 08:39 AM
It amounts to saying "knowing that combat is very likely, I am keeping myself ready for it, and putting myself in an advantageous position such that I am likely to 'go first' (or whatever the in-character equivalent is) when and if it starts." Which strikes me as highly reasonable.

Otherwise, a bunch of guys pointing crossbows at you become even less of a threat than they already are.

Also, readying an action means you cannot take any other action. Like walking, for example. So you can stand in the middle of a clearing waiting to shoot an arrow at the first thing to attack you, but the rest of the party is going off to the dungeon.

Of course, it would be useful for situations where combat seems imminent. For example, if you are in an inn and an argument starts on the other side of the inn. Then you simply ready an action 'If a bar brawl breaks out, I cast Fireball'. But if instead, a Balor appears and eats you, you don't get to cast the Fireball first.

Matthew
2007-08-07, 04:46 PM
Coming off of this situation, does anyone have any suggestions for making a called shots system that is difficult enough that players won't be using it all the time, but powerful enough that it could really change the tide of the battle?

Sure. -4 AB, receive special Critical Range of 17-20, Victim receives a Saving Throw versus the special effects of a successful Critical Hit, which takes the place of the confirm roll. The effects should be low powered, like a Daze effect, stuff like that.

Once an Encounter begins, Combat begins. Encountering a group of Bandits in the Woods is an Encounter.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-07, 06:11 PM
Coming off of this situation, does anyone have any suggestions for making a called shots system that is difficult enough that players won't be using it all the time, but powerful enough that it could really change the tide of the battle?
There are too many ways to pump attack bonus (true strike to name but one). Having a safe or die/suck effect hang on purely the result of an attack roll is not a viable option, no matter what the penalty.

You could use some type of opposed roll ... or you could use a penalty to the attack roll combined with a fortitude or reflex save to avoid the crippling effect.

goat
2007-08-07, 06:26 PM
Well, the simplest option is to do it in a similar way to the ambush feats from Complete Scoundrel. You take a feat, and then you pay a cost in either damage or to hit, and in return you make a special strike.

Maybe if you can pass a sufficiently high concentration check and dump some BAB, THEN hit with enough damage, you could get a version of the assassins death attack.

enderrocksonall
2007-08-08, 06:14 AM
What about simply increasing the AC since you are trying to hit a smaller portion of the body?

So you're aiming for the eye, a fine target, increases the to-hit by 8?

The Glyphstone
2007-08-08, 06:31 AM
That's exactly what didn't work about normal called shots...what use is a -8 penalty when you just cast True Strike, and have a +20 to hit?

enderrocksonall
2007-08-08, 07:01 AM
true strike only works on the wizard or sorc who casts it, so they would need the +20 to hit the thing without a called shot.

The Duskblade
2007-08-08, 07:03 AM
CoughDuskblade,Multiclass,Gesalt,cough

Overlard
2007-08-08, 07:05 AM
Has no-one here seen The Gamers? The scene with the bandit king and his horde ambushing the party sprang straight to mind when I read the OP.

That fight had the "I attack him while he's monologing" moment, and a great depiction of a natural 20 to hit.

I should really watch that again...

enderrocksonall
2007-08-08, 07:17 AM
I dont think there is anyone on these boards that will try to say there is any kind of rule that will not be circumvented by some one. And if true strike is your concern then make the attack role have to be confirmed. True strike only applies to the next attack roll, so the confimation wouldn't let it apply would it?

Also, you could make it so the called strike deals no damage, only applies a condition. A strike to the eyes causes blindness or daze, a strike to the legs causes reduced speed, or gives penalties on trip rolls and bull rush attempts.

The Glyphstone
2007-08-08, 07:36 AM
Confirming a critical uses all bonuses that were applied to the original roll, so yes, they would get the +20 from True Strike.