What is your thoughts on Dragonborn for 5th edition?

[CrackedChair]

The Dragonborn are men, (or maybe dragon men, but maybe a dragon) that are essentially born from dragons. This alone sounds amazing, due to the fact these hulking reptilian humanoids utilize some features that dragons have, such as breath weapons and element resistance, which are based on the heritage of your ancestry.

But othe than these, Dragonborn really do not have much going for them. +2 to strength is nice, but Dwarves and Half-orcs get that as well, plus they have other abilities that help them in combat more than Dragonborn have. +1 charisma is not too useful either unless you are playing a Paladin, which is thematically appropriate, given some Dragonborn revere Bahamut, who himself is a dragon. Aside from the Paladin, not much classes fit Dragonborn too well.

I just think compared to other races, and despite how amazing the Dragonborn sounds, it's just underwhelming. But what do you think?

[Puh Laden]

The only not underpowered race that gets +2 to Strength is Mountain Dwarf. Though at least the dragonborn's breath weapon is short rest-based.

I hate that the default lore says they are all orange-brown, that's just boring. I do like how they tend towards exteme personalities and how the clan goes above all. This inspired me to have a clan that was half good gold dragonborn and half evil red dragonborn, and they stayed united because that's the way it's always been.

[strangebloke]

3e fluff with them as draconic emissaries was way better. Dragonborn weren't born, they were made, which allowed for a lot of fun potential. Granted, I didn't love the onus that you had to be working for Bahamut/Tiamat.

'So you were given your current form by a dragon.'
'Yes'
'You're his emissary, then'
'Yes'
'So what are you doing in the hinterlands with us.'
'The dragons had surprisingly little for me to do.'

[Cybren]

The only not underpowered race that gets +2 to Strength is Mountain Dwarf. Though at least the dragonborn's breath weapon is short rest-based.

Half-Orcs are under-powered????????????????????????

[Puh Laden]

Half-Orcs are under-powered????????????????????????

The ability to drop to 1 instead of 0 is pretty neat, but they need an active ability. Both of their unique abilities are essentially passive and could, in theory, never come up.

Edit: note, when it comes to homebrewing races, I'm less concerned with mathematics and more concerned about desirability and "feel" compared to official races that are suited to similar classes as the homebrewed race. And to me, all of the Strength-based races (except, annoyingly firbolgs) are missing just a little something to feel as special as other races.

[LtPowers]

Dragonborn are a bit weak. I almost get the feeling they were designed to have Darkvision, but it was taken away and nothing else replaced it. The breath weapon and damage resistance are cool and iconic but highly situational. And that's all they get.


Powers &8^]

[Naez]

They're really lackluster. They NEED subraces with different stats. Str/Cha is an awful combo that only works on one class. It should probably be Con, but then it wouldn't really differentiate it much from dwarves. The stats I think they should've given them is 2 Con with subraces being 1 Str or 1 Cha. That'd really open up the number of classes they'd be useful for. As well as one more minor racial feature related to each subrace.

Edit: forgot they also lack darkvision which they should have.

[Hrugner]

I can't bring myself to play one as they don't have a whole lot going on. Their breath weapon doesn't plug into any other ability modifiers so it doesn't appear to be better than any other action your character can take. They don't have darkvision which makes them a hard sell. They're an unusual race so social infiltration type roles make little sense without a ton of help. They're strong but their secondary stat doesn't support it as well as other strong races. They are a mess.

[CrackedChair]

Considering how actual dragons use charisma for their spell casting score, if they have any spells, it does make sense why Dragonborn also get Charisma, as well as Strength, signifying their power from the dragon blood.

They are also pretty much the de-facto sorcerer class, like Tieflings are to Warlocks and Gnomes are to Wizards, despite their anchored not too great for such a class.

[Waterdeep Merch]

They're terrible. They make good paladins, MAYBE hexblades, and that's it. Fluff aside (I hate dragonborn for more than their lackluster stats), there's no reason to use them from an optimization standpoint.

Barbarians like the strength but struggle to find a reason to use anything else, war and tempest clerics again like the strength but nothing else, druids don't care, fighters like the strength but nothing else, monks don't get anything valuable, paladins match up okay (though variant human and half-elf are better in all cases, and elves, halflings, variant tieflings, and even warforged, dwarves, and half-orcs perform better in niche builds), only the rare two-hander rangers get anything of value at all, some rogues might like the +1 charisma and that's it, sorcerers shockingly don't mesh well with them despite the charisma bump, warlocks find some decent synergy for going hexblade though they have the exact same rivalry as in the paladin class, wizards get nothing.

Yes, I'm devaluing the energy resistance quite a bit. Because it's the only respectable feature they've got, and it's just not enough here.

The breath weapon's miserable. It's an okay perk at best that competes poorly with a lot of other bonus actions, and only finds use in 'better than nothing' AoE situations.

[Naanomi]

Unimpressive mechanically, and I don't like the asthetics much... but they fill a good gap in my setting so I'll take them. Only seen two at the table (a fairly functional banneret; and a sunsoul monk from a younger player looking at aesthetics not optimization); and they are probably the race I'm least interested in playing personally

[Millstone85]

I would be interested in playing a lizardfolk or a kobold who is a draconic bloodline sorcerer. Bad stat synergy and the Draconic language is gained twice, as is natural armor for the lizardfolk, I know, but the fluff is great. These are races that claim ties with dragons and may indeed have more such sorcerers than others, or at least be more prone to flaunt them. The character would have been a big deal in his or her tribe, and may have been driven out of it by some special mission, jealousies or a rival sorcerer.

But playing a dragonborn... I just don't see it.

[Ralanr]

The only not underpowered race that gets +2 to Strength is Mountain Dwarf. Though at least the dragonborn's breath weapon is short rest-based.

I hate that the default lore says they are all orange-brown, that's just boring. I do like how they tend towards exteme personalities and how the clan goes above all. This inspired me to have a clan that was half good gold dragonborn and half evil red dragonborn, and they stayed united because that's the way it's always been.

They're default orange brown?

Wow. I just have their colors based on their dragon ancestry. More fun that way.


Edit: honestly I don't understand why they don't have darkvision or better scaling on their breath weapon.

Subraces would have been nice, but that would have been too many pages I guess.

Honestly I like them. Too many dragon races are either meant to portrayed as a joke to Dragons power (Kobolds) or just humans with scales (but not too much, just on the shins, forearms, and cheeks) and wings. At least that's how I've seen it in fiction. I prefer more of a draconic humanoid form.

Even if they are underpowered, the power differences between races aren't so large (except half-elf) that it makes too much of a difference.

[CrackedChair]

I would be interested in playing a lizardfolk or a kobold who is a draconic bloodline sorcerer. Bad stat synergy and the Draconic language is gained twice, as is natural armor for the lizardfolk, I know, but the fluff is great. These are races that claim ties with dragons and may indeed have more such sorcerers than others, or at least be more prone to flaunt them. The character would have been a big deal in his or her tribe, and may have been driven out of it by some special mission, jealousies or a rival sorcerer.

But playing a dragonborn... I just don't see it.

A party having a Lizardfolk as a member of a Dragonborn clan might have been nice.

[Jama7301]

I like Dragonborn. They look neat, have innate resistance and a breath attack, and a feat can turn that into a Fear AoE.

Sure, they're not as interesting or strong, mechanically, as other races, but I just love a lot of the fluff that surrounds the Dragonborn.

Additionally, I also allow the color of the Dragonborn to reflect their heritage. Makes more sense to me that way.

[Millstone85]

A party having a Lizardfolk as a member of a Dragonborn clan might have been nice.I would consider the opposite, a dragonborn from a lizardfolk tribe, either in an ugly duckling kind of way or as a rare birth.

[JBPuffin]

Even if they are underpowered, the power differences between races aren't so large (except half-elf) that it makes too much of a difference.

I've had an Open Hand Sragonborn Monk at the table before - hilariously, he was probably our party's finest character. My Dwarf Bard and the Tiefling Barbarian had variant races to match our ability scores; he just had pure luck and player willpower, and BOY did he do good work.

[ZB2017]

I've never really looked at them very closely but I like the damage resistance they have. Other than that, I don't know when I would ever use their breath weapon since it takes up a full action. Maybe if it was a bonus action, I'd like them a little better. For RP everyday interactions, they stick out like a sore thumb though

[Ralanr]

I've never really looked at them very closely but I like the damage resistance they have. Other than that, I don't know when I would ever use their breath weapon since it takes up a full action. Maybe if it was a bonus action, I'd like them a little better. For RP everyday interactions, they stick out like a sore thumb though

I mean...don't pretty much every non-standard race stick out like sore thumbs?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Funny thing--almost every new female player I've introduced to D&D has immediately gravitated toward dragonborn (as have many of the teenage boys). There's something about dragons...

I do give them darkvision and am flexible about the +2 stat (being willing to shift it to DEX for particular classes and people that I know aren't munchkins).

Edit: and in my setting they're the true-breeding descendants of the second attempt to breed a race of super-soldiers. The first attempt created the orcs.

[Daltry]

I like the dragonborn. I think the strength bonus plays well with any kind of fighter. I'm using one for my eldritch knight. The added armor class and +1 to cha is great for a sorcerer or warlock. The added ac also helps a fighter who gets caught out of armor. The bad design of 5e is that a race with a higher natural armor doesn't get the benefit if the class wears heavy armor. That makes no sense since if something pierced the armor it would run into the tougher hide underneath. It should be stackable like it is with light and medium armor. The breath weapon is a nice little punch when you want to save a spell slot or class feature for a different situation. their resistance to their breath weapons type of damage is a nice bonus as well. They may not get as much as some races but they're really interesting and there's plenty there to build on.

[Ralanr]

Funny thing--almost every new female player I've introduced to D&D has immediately gravitated toward dragonborn (as have many of the teenage boys). There's something about dragons...

I do give them darkvision and am flexible about the +2 stat (being willing to shift it to DEX for particular classes and people that I know aren't munchkins).

Edit: and in my setting they're the true-breeding descendants of the second attempt to breed a race of super-soldiers. The first attempt created the orcs.

I don't know why, but I always find the idea of orcs being failed super soldier experiments to be very appealing.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't know why, but I always find the idea of orcs being failed super soldier experiments to be very appealing.

It's also surprisingly common: I did it in my setting, Ubisoft's Heroes of Might and Magic did it, Prattchet did it, Warhammer 40K did it... well, if you think about it, Tolkien also did it (though with uruks, not orcs, who are more akin to standard fantasy goblins) in the very original source of orcs.

Anyway, to the topic of dragonborn: those things shouldn't have existed at all, even less as a race in core book. Another blight 4e inflicted upon D&D as a whole.

[strangebloke]

It's also surprisingly common: I did it in my setting, Ubisoft's Heroes of Might and Magic did it, Prattchet did it, Warhammer 40K did it... well, if you think about it, Tolkien also did it (though with uruks, not orcs, who are more akin to standard fantasy goblins) in the very original source of orcs.

Anyway, to the topic of dragonborn: those things shouldn't have existed at all, even less as a race in core book. Another blight 4e inflicted upon D&D as a whole.

All orcs were created artificially for warfare. Some are big, some are small and fast. It's an endless source of entertainment for me that DnD humans are 'adaptable' and orcs are 'strong' while in LotR, humans are strong and orcs are adaptable.

Orcs also are not 'failed' supersoldiers, not really. They breed like crazy, are exceedingly vulnerable to magical suggestion, love to fight, can thrive in virtually any environment, and live for hundreds of years.

The biggest problem for the dragonborn is that its in way too crowded of a headspace. How many ways does DND have for you to be 'blood of the dragon'?

Dragonborn,
Kobold,
Lizardfolk,
Draconic Sorceror.

You know what we really need though? Spellscales.

[Cybren]

All orcs were created artificially for warfare. Some are big, some are small and fast. It's an endless source of entertainment for me that DnD humans are 'adaptable' and orcs are 'strong' while in LotR, humans are strong and orcs are adaptable.

Orcs also are not 'failed' supersoldiers, not really. They breed like crazy, are exceedingly vulnerable to magical suggestion, love to fight, can thrive in virtually any environment, and live for hundreds of years.

The biggest problem for the dragonborn is that its in way too crowded of a headspace. How many ways does DND have for you to be 'blood of the dragon'?

Dragonborn,
Kobold,
Lizardfolk,
Draconic Sorceror.

You know what we really need though? Spellscales.
3.5 was the best, where you could be a half-dragon dragon disciple sorcerer kobold.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Thematically, I think the Dragonborn are an awesome idea; dragon races just scream "D&D", and when I read Wizards Presents: Races & Classes, it whet my appetite for the official release of the Dragonborn.

I'll be honest, I thought the 3.5 version of Dragonborni was... okay, but like the Half-Dragon it fell under the problem of just being too damn strong to play at first level and potentially too much of a hassle for DMs, much like the Dragon Monster Classes presented in Dragon Magazine.

Unlike the kobold, whose draconic connection A: is tenuous in-universe, and B: has only existed since 3rd edition, so you'll run into grognards who refuse to portray them as anything other than a kind of goblin, the dragonborn lets you play a true dragon-like race from the get-go, right out of the gate, as a level 1 PC. That's awesome, and exactly what I want out of my fantasy worlds - rehashing the same Tolkienian races over and over again can go hang!

That said... I'm not entirely happy with the 5e rendition of the race. Leaving out my near-universal dislike of 5e's fluff over 4e's, the simple fact of the matter is that dragonborn in 5e feel weakened in comparison. I don't know why, but they do. For example, here's what they looked like in 4th edition:
Medium size, Speed 6 squares (30 feet)
+2 Charisma
+2 to your choice of either Strength or Constitution (originally only +2 Constitution)
+2 to both History and Intimidate (which would roughly translate as free Proficiency in 5e)
Dragonborn Fury: +1 racial bonus to attack rolls made whilst Bloodied (at 50% or less of max hitpoints).
Draconic Heritage: Bonus Healing Surges (Hit Die in 5e) equal to Con bonus.
Dragon Breath: Once per encounter (and don't forget, the 4e equivalent of a short rest was 5 minutes, not an hour), unleash a 3-square Close Blast (15ft long cone) of elemental damage, with a +2 bonus (increasing to +4 at Paragon tier and +6 at Epic tier) and doing 1d6+ ability score bonus elemental damage (increasing to 2d6 at Paragon tier and 3d6 at Epic tier). At character creation, you set whether the damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Poison damage, and whether it keys off of your Strength, Dexterity or Constitution ability score.

In comparison, the 5e version gets:
+2 Strength, +1 Constitution
A Breath Weapon that does either Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Poison damage in either a 5ft by 30ft line or a 15ft cone, depending on draconic ancestry.
Resistance to the same type of Damage that you inflict with your breath weapon.

Worse, the differences in class mechanics means 5e dragonborn have lost a lot of the strong synchronization they had in the past edition. As mentioned in past posts, Strength/Charisma is a rather lackluster ability score bonus in 5e, but in 4e, +2 Cha with floating +2 Str/Con was actually pretty awesome. 4e Dragonborn had a real edge in with Clerics, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, Warlocks, Warlords, Barbarians, Bards, Druids, Invokers, Shamans, Sorcerers, Wardens, Ardents, Battleminds, Monks, Psions, Runepriests and Seekers.

All of these classes keyed off of at least one of the Dragonborn's three ability score modifiers, and several of them actually made excellent use of one or both of the Dragonborn's two ability boost formats - for example, Con/Cha was great right out the gate for Ardents, Battleminds, Barbarians, Bards, and Warlocks, whilst the Str/Cha boost let them excel as Paladins, Warlords and as Rogues (thanks to a subclass in one of the Martial Powers), to name just a few.

See what I mean? Dragonborn went from making good members of many different classes to being pretty sub-optimal. Whilst I agree that optimization shouldn't be the name of the game and that it's mostly a legacy of how easily races & classes could be over/underpowered in editions prior to 4th, it is pretty disheartening.

[Ninja-Radish]

I loved Dragonborn in 4E but in 5E the developers seem to have decided to make them the redheaded stepchildren. To quote Charles Barkley, they're "Turrible". Mechanically the absolute worst race in the game, and the competition isn't even particularly close.

[Pex]

Everyone forgets or doesn't realize Dragonborn do not have darkvision. The first time darkvision matters in a campaign the Human obligatory mentions he needs a torch. Everyone becomes legitimately shocked when the Dragonborn says "me too".

[Ralanr]

I loved Dragonborn in 4E but in 5E the developers seem to have decided to make them the redheaded stepchildren. To quote Charles Barkley, they're "Turrible". Mechanically the absolute worst race in the game, and the competition isn't even particularly close.


I think it was because they feared how the community would react to something that was introduced in 4e being good.


Everyone forgets or doesn't realize Dragonborn do not have darkvision. The first time darkvision matters in a campaign the Human obligatory mentions he needs a torch. Everyone becomes legitimately shocked when the Dragonborn says "me too".

That reminds me of how many times my dragonborns complained about walking into dark places.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Well, in fairness, Dragonborn as a race haven't ever had Darkvision, unless you count the Dragonborn of Bahamut who took the Draconic Aspect of Mind in 3.5's "Races of the Dragon". Or the half-dragon template in 3e, which dragonborn actually aren't supposed to be. Or the Dray from Athas, who're a different race entirely.

[Easy_Lee]

My biggest problem is they feel underdeveloped. The default 5e setting is Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms has the metallic dragons, a collection of goodly dragons that worship Bahamut.

Dragonborn ought to have nine sub-races (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Metallic_dragon):

Brass dragons are talkative and love the intense heat of deserts. They usually lair in high caves, preferably facing east to enjoy the morning warmth. Their territories always contain spots where they can sunbathe and trap unwary travelers in conversation.
Bronze dragons are inquisitive and fascinated with warfare. They eagerly join armies, looking for a just cause and good pay. They also enjoy polymorphing into small animals to study adventuring bands.
Copper dragons are pranksters, joke tellers, and riddlers. Most are good-natured but with a covetous, miserly streak. They are determined hunters, considering good sport at least as important as food.
Gold dragons are altruistic, graceful, and wise. They hate injustice, and often embark on self-appointed quests to promote their causes. They often assum humanoid guises while traveling.
Iron dragons, savage or deceptive by nature, are considered the most brutish and vicious of the metallic races. Though a few are evil, most are of neutral alignments. Regardless, they are predatory and dangerous.
Mercury dragons are fickle, impulsive creatures given to rapid change, both physical and mental. They delight in unpredictability and are reputedly mentally unstable.
Platinum dragons are the rarest of the metallic dragons. Many believe that only one ever existed: Bahamut. Their bodies and eyes irradiate powerful auras of light, sometimes making onlookers unable to discern the color of their scales.
Silver dragons are regal and embody all that is honorable about dragonkind. Good silver dragons assist goodly creatures in need, and often take the forms of kindly old men or fair damsels while traveling in humanoid lands. The few silvers who turn to evil maintain their honor and reputation; they don't commit actions of petty malice or kill unworthy foes.
Steel dragons are sociable, clever, and curious, and prefer the company of humanoids over dragons. They are more often in humanoid form than dragon. They take interest in the art, culture, history, and politics of humanoid races.

[TheCrowing1432]

Conceptually Dragonborn are cool, but sadly, they just dont....DO anything.

Their stat bonuses are ok, good for melee classes to where con and str are paramount.

Their breath weapon, which is my favorite part about them, is weak and is once per rest. Jeeze, at least do 1+con or something like previous editions used.

Their resistance can come in handy if you happen to be in the right place at the right time, but it could also never come up ever. Some DM's are ***** and they would be like "Oh well, you're resistant to fire damage? Well every mage ever is now going to use any element BUT fire"

And, like many others, I assumed they had darkvision, but they do not.

[Hrugner]

Well, in fairness, Dragonborn as a race haven't ever had Darkvision, unless you count the Dragonborn of Bahamut who took the Draconic Aspect of Mind in 3.5's "Races of the Dragon". Or the half-dragon template in 3e, which dragonborn actually aren't supposed to be. Or the Dray from Athas, who're a different race entirely.

They are however remarkably similar to Draconians from Dragonlance, all of which did have darkvision. They are also related to dragons all of which have darkvision including distant relatives of dragons.

[JackPhoenix]

All orcs were created artificially for warfare. Some are big, some are small and fast. It's an endless source of entertainment for me that DnD humans are 'adaptable' and orcs are 'strong' while in LotR, humans are strong and orcs are adaptable.

Orcs also are not 'failed' supersoldiers, not really. They breed like crazy, are exceedingly vulnerable to magical suggestion, love to fight, can thrive in virtually any environment, and live for hundreds of years.

The biggest problem for the dragonborn is that its in way too crowded of a headspace. How many ways does DND have for you to be 'blood of the dragon'?

Dragonborn,
Kobold,
Lizardfolk,
Draconic Sorceror.

You know what we really need though? Spellscales.

You forgot draconians and half-dragons

I'd say orcs could be considered "failed" supersoldiers, because in all examples I've mentioned (except Tolkien), they failed in one key aspect: being controllable and loyal to their creators.

[Ralanr]

My biggest problem is they feel underdeveloped. The default 5e setting is Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms has the metallic dragons, a collection of goodly dragons that worship Bahamut.

Dragonborn ought to have nine sub-races (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Metallic_dragon):

Brass dragons are talkative and love the intense heat of deserts. They usually lair in high caves, preferably facing east to enjoy the morning warmth. Their territories always contain spots where they can sunbathe and trap unwary travelers in conversation.
Bronze dragons are inquisitive and fascinated with warfare. They eagerly join armies, looking for a just cause and good pay. They also enjoy polymorphing into small animals to study adventuring bands.
Copper dragons are pranksters, joke tellers, and riddlers. Most are good-natured but with a covetous, miserly streak. They are determined hunters, considering good sport at least as important as food.
Gold dragons are altruistic, graceful, and wise. They hate injustice, and often embark on self-appointed quests to promote their causes. They often assum humanoid guises while traveling.
Iron dragons, savage or deceptive by nature, are considered the most brutish and vicious of the metallic races. Though a few are evil, most are of neutral alignments. Regardless, they are predatory and dangerous.
Mercury dragons are fickle, impulsive creatures given to rapid change, both physical and mental. They delight in unpredictability and are reputedly mentally unstable.
Platinum dragons are the rarest of the metallic dragons. Many believe that only one ever existed: Bahamut. Their bodies and eyes irradiate powerful auras of light, sometimes making onlookers unable to discern the color of their scales.
Silver dragons are regal and embody all that is honorable about dragonkind. Good silver dragons assist goodly creatures in need, and often take the forms of kindly old men or fair damsels while traveling in humanoid lands. The few silvers who turn to evil maintain their honor and reputation; they don't commit actions of petty malice or kill unworthy foes.
Steel dragons are sociable, clever, and curious, and prefer the company of humanoids over dragons. They are more often in humanoid form than dragon. They take interest in the art, culture, history, and politics of humanoid races.


Why skip chromatic dragons?

I once fluffed white dragonborn to be a savage a brutally cunning group of dragonborn who followed a strict code that was in itself vague. The main tenants were, fight with all your capability, and a fight is between two people nothing more.

When I played my barbarian, he was honestly the funnest barbarian I've played. Because people assumed he was Chaotic neutral with how he acted, but was actually Lawful neutral.

"I'm not going to start a fight. I'm just going to talk to him." Starts a fight by throwing the table

[Naanomi]

You forgot draconians and half-dragons

I'd say orcs could be considered "failed" supersoldiers, because in all examples I've mentioned (except Tolkien), they failed in one key aspect: being controllable and loyal to their creators.
Unless you consider their creator Grummsh; who seems pretty satisfied with their performance in the Prime and as petitioners in the afterlife

[Easy_Lee]

Why skip chromatic dragons?

Because chromatic dragons are evil, so Dragonborn of those races would tend toward evil. Either way, it'd be easy to refluff the appropriate metallic dragon as a chromatic one if needed.

[thoroughlyS]

I would take a different approach to the subraces. Something more akin to the aspects from 3.5. Dragonborn of any color should have the option of a breath weapon, or maybe trade that away for wings, or racial spells. Maybe something like:

DRAGONBORN
Your draconic heritage manifests in a variety of traits you share with other dragonborn.
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 1, and your Charisma score increases by 1.
Age. Young dragonborn grow quickly. They walk hours after hatching, attain the size and development of a 10-year-old human child by the age of 3, and reach adulthood by 15. They live to be around 80.
Alignment. Dragonborn tend to extremes, making a conscious choice for one side or the other in the cosmic war between good and evil. Most dragonborn are good, but those who side with evil can be terrible villains.
Size. Dragonborn are taller and heavier than humans, standing well over 6 feet tall and averaging almost 250 pounds. Your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Draconic Ancestry. You have draconic ancestry. Choose one type of dragon from the Draconic Ancestry table. Your damage resistance is determined by the dragon type, as shown in the table.
Damage Resistance. You have resistance to the damage type associated with your draconic ancestry.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and Draconic. Draconic is thought to be one of the oldest languages and is often used in the study of magic. The language sounds harsh to most other creatures and includes numerous hard consonants and sibilants.

BODY
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by an additional 1 (for a total of 2).
Natural Armor. You have tough, scaly skin. When you aren't wearing armor, your AC is 13 + your Dexterity modifier. You can use your natural armor to determine your AC if the armor you wear would leave you with a lower AC. A shield's benefits apply as normal while you use your natural armor.
Draconic Physiology. You have the set of traits associated with your draconic ancestry.

Amphibious. You can breathe air and water.
Bite. Your fanged maw is a natural weapon, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with it, you deal piercing damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike.
Burrow. You have a burrowing speed of 15 feet.
Climb. You have a climbing speed of 30 feet.
Cloud Walk. You can tread on clouds or fog as though on solid ground. The ability functions continuously but can be negated or resumed at will.
Earth Walk. You can move across difficult terrain made of earth or stone without expending extra movement.
Ice Walk. You can move across and climb icy surfaces without needing to make an ability check. Additionally, difficult terrain composed of ice or snow doesn't cost it extra moment.
Slow fall. You can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your proficiency bonus.
Swim. You have a swimming speed of 30 feet.

FEAR
Ability Score Increase. Your Charisma score increases by an additional 1 (for a total of 2).
Frightful Presence You can use your action to roar, forcing each creature of your choice within 30 feet of you to make a Wisdom saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier). A target automatically succeeds on the save if it can’t hear or see you. On a failed save, a target becomes frightened of you for 1 minute. If the frightened target takes any damage, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success.
After you use your frightful presence, you can’t use it again until you complete a short or long rest.

HEART
Ability Score Increase. Your Constitution score increases by 1.
Breath Weapon. You can use your action to exhale destructive energy. Your draconic ancestry determines the size, shape, and damage type of the exhalation.
When you use your breath weapon, each creature in the area of the exhalation must make a saving throw, the type of which is determined by your draconic ancestry. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus. A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The damage increases to 3d6 at 5th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 17th level.
After you use your breath weapon, you can’t use it again until you complete a short or long rest.

MAGIC
Ability Score Increase. Your Charisma score increases by an additional 1 (for a total of 2).
Darkvision. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Draconic Legacy. You know the cantrip associated with your draconic ancestry. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the 1st-level spell associated with your draconic ancestry once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. When you reach 5th level, you can cast the 2nd-level spell associated with your draconic ancestry once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. You don't need material components for either spell. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

SIGHT
Ability Score Increase. Your Wisdom score increases by 1.
Darkvision. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Keen Senses. You have proficiency in the Perception skill.
Dragon Sight. You can use your action to focus all your senses, affording you unparalleled understanding of your surroundings. You gain blindsight out to a range of 30 feet for 1 minute. After you use your dragon sight, you can’t use it again until you complete a short or long rest.

WINGS
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by an additional 1 (for a total of 2).
Flight. You have a flying speed of 30 feet while you aren’t wearing heavy armor.



Dragon
Damage Type
Traits
Breath Shape
Cantrip
1st-level
2nd-level


Black
Acid
Amphibious, Swim
5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save)
infestation (XGtE p.158)
detect poison and disease
darkness


Blue
Lightning
Burrow
5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save)
lightning lure (SCAG p.143)
create or destroy water
dust devil (EEPC p.17, XGtE p.154)


Brass
Fire
Burrow
5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save)
vicious mockery
silent image
warding wind (EEPC p.23, XGtE p.170)


Bronze
Lightning
Amphibious, Swim
5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save)
thunderclap (EEPC p.22, XGtE p.168)
fog cloud
detect thoughts


Copper
Acid
Climb, Earth Walk
5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save)
mold earth (EEPC p.21, XGtE p.162)
speak with animals
spike growth*


Gold
Fire
Amphibious, Swim
15 ft. cone (Dex. save)
true strike
bless
suggestion


Green
Poison
Amphibious, Swim
15 ft. cone (Con. save)
friends
entangle
spike growth


Red
Fire
Bite, Climb
15 ft. cone (Dex. save)
create bonfire (EEPC p.16, XGtE p.152)
earth tremor (EEPC p.17, XGtE p155)
locate object


Silver
Cold
Cloud Walk, Slow Fall
15 ft. cone (Con. save)
gust (EEPC p.15, XGtE p.157)
feather fall
levitate


White
Cold
Ice Walk, Swim
15 ft. cone (Con. save)
primal savagery† (XGtE p.163)
fog cloud
gust of wind



*This spell creates stone spikes instead of thorns
†This spell deals piercing damage

[PhoenixPhyre]

You forgot draconians and half-dragons

I'd say orcs could be considered "failed" supersoldiers, because in all examples I've mentioned (except Tolkien), they failed in one key aspect: being controllable and loyal to their creators.


Unless you consider their creator Grummsh; who seems pretty satisfied with their performance in the Prime and as petitioners in the afterlife

Right. Mine "failed" as super soldiers due to the whole anger control issues. Got the super part right, not the soldier part. Mine were created out of humans by humans (and high elves), so no gods involved. Of course, my humans are evolved from the same common ancestor as goblinoids (which are all one race with mutable phenotypes), so...

[Jerrykhor]

My opinion is that, their racials aren't very impressive, but its not as bad as the full orc in Volo's. Lack of Darkvision is odd, sure, but fire resist is good, and is usually the difference between staying up and going unconcious after taking a Fireball to the face, especially at lower levels.

[Naanomi]

Right. Mine "failed" as super soldiers due to the whole anger control issues. Got the super part right, not the soldier part. Mine were created out of humans by humans (and high elves), so no gods involved. Of course, my humans are evolved from the same common ancestor as goblinoids (which are all one race with mutable phenotypes), so...
Heh Orcs in my campaign are a mercenary race; their Gods fled the plane (as did all the racial Gods) and their one attempt at an empire crumbled; they are a race designed by their God to fight under the command of a powerful leader, and lacking one of their own they find those 'Leaders' in whoever will provide for them. Almost all other races use them, but always under underlying fears that another Orc Great Clanchief will arise and unite them again; so they are kept separated and oppressed

[CountWolfgang]

They are very lack luster, and i'm surprised i'm not the only one who thought they should have darkvision. Plus human variants and half elfs outshine them in every regard. For aesthetic reasons I've always felt they should have tails. That one thing bugs me more than it should. My dm at least made thme a little more interesting. They have functional wing, 1d6 slashing damage for claws, and immunity to their damage type. But at the end of the day I would much rather play a dragonborn over a tiefling.

[Crgaston]

The bad design of 5e is that a race with a higher natural armor doesn't get the benefit if the class wears heavy armor. That makes no sense since if something pierced the armor it would run into the tougher hide underneath. It should be stackable like it is with light and medium armor.

Is this accurate? I was under the impression that dragon born don't have Natural Armor and that the feature doesn't stack with ANY armor.

[DracoKnight]

Is this accurate? I was under the impression that dragon born don't have Natural Armor and that the feature doesn't stack with ANY armor.

They get it through one of the Racial Feats from Unearthed Arcana.

[D-naras]

I like the concept but hate the execution.

My simple fix would take the refresh mechanic of the Tabaxi's speed boost and jam in in the breath weapon.

Breath Weapon: ... After you use your breath weapon, you can't do so again until you spend 1 Round without spending any movement.

[Zejety]

I like the FR Dragonborn fluff as explored in Ern M. Evans' novels, particularly Ashes of the Tyrant.
I wish the race was a little more powerful but on the other hand, I never felt like race was that big a factor in optimization. A better breath weapon would really be neat though.

[EvilAnagram]

Dragonborn are probably the only underpowered race in the PHB. I house rule them taking a cue from Tritons: +1 in Str, Con, and Cha, and their breath weapon is a bonus action.

[Vaz]

I like the FR Dragonborn fluff as explored in Ern M. Evans' novels, particularly Ashes of the Tyrant.
I wish the race was a little more powerful but on the other hand, I never felt like race was that big a factor in optimization. A better breath weapon would really be neat though.
A feat for Short Rest recovery, Bonus Actions and +1 damage per Con per dice to their Breath could be nice to improve it. 4d6+20.

[Puh Laden]

A feat for Short Rest recovery, Bonus Actions and +1 damage per Con per dice to their Breath could be nice to improve it. 4d6+20.

It already recovers on a short rest. Or are you saying you would make it long rest based by default because of how much you're improving it?

[Vaz]

That's what I get for not really playing Dragonborn too much. But yes, if it's Short Rest, that is better.

[Ralanr]

Because chromatic dragons are evil, so Dragonborn of those races would tend toward evil. Either way, it'd be easy to refluff the appropriate metallic dragon as a chromatic one if needed.

Except you know they aren't like gnolls where they don't have a choice in their alignment.

[DracoKnight]

Me: *is at a loss for words*

https://pokemonhacksforfree.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/19723871_1869228173341103_73590410_o.jpg

[Waterdeep Merch]

Me: *is at a loss for words*

https://pokemonhacksforfree.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/19723871_1869228173341103_73590410_o.jpg
I can kind of see where he's coming from. The only other race I can think of that has a direct, always usable damaging ability of any kind is the half-orc, and that's only on critical hits. If you value raw damage numbers, dragonborn DO have a niche.

My problem with them is that the niche is so insanely specific thanks to the stat spread that only two classes realistically get to benefit from them. A +1 to Constitution would do wonders in making them a more viable race, for example, just by giving a stat that synergizes with any potential build, letting you ignore one of your three stat increases in favor of the help the other two give and making it an actual heavy contender in the two niches it already belonged to (which are supplanted by the variant human and half-elf in every scenario).

[Easy_Lee]

I can kind of see where he's coming from. The only other race I can think of that has a direct, always usable damaging ability of any kind is the half-orc, and that's only on critical hits. If you value raw damage numbers, dragonborn DO have a niche.

My problem with them is that the niche is so insanely specific thanks to the stat spread that only two classes realistically get to benefit from them. A +1 to Constitution would do wonders in making them a more viable race, for example, just by giving a stat that synergizes with any potential build, letting you ignore one of your three stat increases in favor of the help the other two give and making it an actual heavy contender in the two niches it already belonged to (which are supplanted by the variant human and half-elf in every scenario).

I think they overvalued damaging abilities this generation. They see damage with damage resistance and think the race is good enough. Unfortunate.

I'd do dragonborn this way:

+2 Constitution for synergy with their breath weapon
Darkvision
Color determines +1 to another attribute, damage resistance, breath type

That would make them considerably more usable.

[Sigreid]

The only not underpowered race that gets +2 to Strength is Mountain Dwarf. Though at least the dragonborn's breath weapon is short rest-based.

I hate that the default lore says they are all orange-brown, that's just boring. I do like how they tend towards exteme personalities and how the clan goes above all. This inspired me to have a clan that was half good gold dragonborn and half evil red dragonborn, and they stayed united because that's the way it's always been.

We house ruled the color thing. My storm sorcerer dragonborn sailor is shiny silver and resembles his silver dragon ancestor. Doesn't harm anything and makes them a bit cooler.

[Ninja-Radish]

I can kind of see where he's coming from. The only other race I can think of that has a direct, always usable damaging ability of any kind is the half-orc, and that's only on critical hits. If you value raw damage numbers, dragonborn DO have a niche.

My problem with them is that the niche is so insanely specific thanks to the stat spread that only two classes realistically get to benefit from them. A +1 to Constitution would do wonders in making them a more viable race, for example, just by giving a stat that synergizes with any potential build, letting you ignore one of your three stat increases in favor of the help the other two give and making it an actual heavy contender in the two niches it already belonged to (which are supplanted by the variant human and half-elf in every scenario).

Except the breath weapon is extremely underpowered and only usable once per short rest. Lame. I'd rather have Darkvision and +1 AC from natural armor (which is something they should have) and dump the piece of crap breath weapon.

Besides, have you seen the cornucopia of crazy good stuff Elves, Half Elves and Dwarves get?? No, Mearls is straight wrong.

[Vaz]

I can kind of see where he's coming from. The only other race I can think of that has a direct, always usable damaging ability of any kind is the half-orc, and that's only on critical hits. If you value raw damage numbers, dragonborn DO have a niche.

If you value raw damage numbers, take vHuman with Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master. You can do +10pts of damage every round in place of 7pts of damage 1/short rest, that may or may not be saved against, or resistant/immune.

Dude's a moron.

[Zejety]

I'm honestly surprised by that answer too. This thread kinda proofs that it's easy to argue with breathing fire. :/

[mephnick]

I'm honestly surprised by that answer too.

I'm not. Mearls has never had any idea what he's talking about. I consider him the least reliable source of information in the entire industry.

[Puh Laden]

We house ruled the color thing. My storm sorcerer dragonborn sailor is shiny silver and resembles his silver dragon ancestor. Doesn't harm anything and makes them a bit cooler.

Oh, yes I also house-rule the color thing, because the default lore is aesthetically boring. I just wish there could be official pictures of dragonborn that weren't orange-brown.

Is there anyone here who prefers the universal orange-brown look or lore?

[Zejety]

It's kind of hard to keep of track with with all those canon re-writes, but I distinctly remember the Dragonborn in the Brimstone Angels series of novels (set in the Forgotten Realms) to be colorful. Weird.
It's been a while since I've read them though. So I may be wrong.

Edit: Actually, upon looking up some characters from those novels online, it appears most of them really are various shades of brown. :S

[Hrugner]

You could make the breath weapon at will and it still wouldn't be that big of a draw. At will and require an attack rather than a save and it starts to look better. At will, an attack rather than a save, and can replace one of your attacks in an attack action and it would be pretty cool.

It's competing with every other possible action, it just sucks. Mearls is talking crazy.

[DracoKnight]

You could make the breath weapon at will and it still wouldn't be that big of a draw. At will and require an attack rather than a save and it starts to look better. At will, an attack rather than a save, and can replace one of your attacks in an attack action and it would be pretty cool.

It's competing with every other possible action, it just sucks. Mearls is talking crazy.

See I'd be fine with keeping it a Saving Throw, but allowing it to replace one of your attacks.

Actually, I might design a Dragonborn exclusive archtype that does just that.

[Waterdeep Merch]

If you value raw damage numbers, take vHuman with Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master. You can do +10pts of damage every round in place of 7pts of damage 1/short rest, that may or may not be saved against, or resistant/immune.

Dude's a moron.
Oh, I'm not saying it's not terrible. I just see where he's coming from, and definitely overvaluing that damage. He basically gutted all the possible features from the race in exchange for a damaging ability, then gutted that too so that it couldn't outshine anything. Should've done one or the other, not both. As it is, it's a lackluster option on a lackluster race with a poor stat spread for actually using it with the classes in the game. The only good thing they've got going for them is an elemental resistance.

Point in case- hand them the +1 Con I mentioned, change their breath weapon into a bonus action, and give them darkvision- clearing up several points of contention with the race as a whole- and I would still have trouble recommending it as third or even fourth pick for any class from an optimization standpoint.

The breath weapon would need to nuke anything hit by it before it's worth taking the race for it, or be reasonably good damage at-will. It's that busted.

[DracoKnight]

Point in case- hand them the +1 Con I mentioned, change their breath weapon into a bonus action, and give them darkvision- clearing up several points of contention with the race as a whole- and I would still have trouble recommending it as third or even fourth pick for any class from an optimization standpoint.

All of this. Much this. You need to be tweeting at Mearles to tell him why he's wrong.

[Oramac]

I know I'm super late to the party here, but I agree that the Dragonborn is severely lacking.

I actually really, really love the fluff and RP aspects of the race, and with a few tweaks it would be in competition with the Aasimar for my go-to race to play. But as-is, I just can't justify playing it at all.

My main, number 1 gripe is the lack of Darkvision. Every single dragon in the MM gets Darkvision. Why the **** doesn't the Dragonborn? Grr. I'm not bitter, I swear.

Other than that, as has been said, the breath weapon is disappointing. I don't mind it being an action, but the lack of scaling and 1/SR restrictions are what kill it for me. I think it should recharge on a roll of 5 or 6; again, like the dragons the race is based upon.

Anyway, just my .02

[xroads]

I wonder if the reason the dragonborns are somewhat lacking, is because the authors wanted to keep a more Tolkien flavored setting. They didn't want to risk flocks of dragonborn parties populating AL events.

At least initially. I haven't been to an AL event in awhile, but I'm guessing Volo's guide has drastically changed the species dynamic.

Also, I don't know if this has been mentioned, but aside from paladins, dragonborn also make pretty good bards. Especially valor bards. One of my favorite characters was a valor bard dragonborn who managed to kill a dragon using the cantrip vicious mockery. :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean...don't pretty much every non-standard race stick out like sore thumbs? Yeah.
The reason I don't like dragonborn in 5e is that I never liked them, nor did I care much for the draconics in Krynn. I can see that they can fit into the world, but they just don't do it for me.

I don't know why, but I always find the idea of orcs being failed super soldier experiments to be very appealing. Yeah. If you go back to the origin of orcs, JRR Tolkien, his son's editing brought forth in the Silmarillion a decent origin story for orcs, which were other creations (elves) corrupted for the purpose of conquest, a theme later mimicked by Saruman in his experiments that led to the Uruk Hai of Isenguard. The unnatural history of Tolkien's orcs (http://www.ansereg.com/TheUnnaturalHistoryofTolkiensOrcs.pdf)is a neat look at the race/species.

All orcs were created artificially for warfare. Some are big, some are small and fast. OK, that's another good take, but we are probably drifting off topic.

[Millstone85]

Oh, yes I also house-rule the color thing, because the default lore is aesthetically boring. I just wish there could be official pictures of dragonborn that weren't orange-brown.

Is there anyone here who prefers the universal orange-brown look or lore?I wouldn't call that a house rule, just an emphasis of a certain aspect of the official lore.
The first dragonborn had scales of vibrant hues matching the colors of their dragon kin, but generations of interbreeding have created a more uniform appearance. Their small, fine scales are usually brass or bronze in color, sometimes ranging to scarlet, rust, gold, or copper-green. [...] The blood of a particular type of dragon runs very strong through some dragonborn clans. These dragonborn often boast scales that more closely match those of their dragon ancestor--bright red, green, blue, or white, lustrous black, or gleaming metallic gold, silver, brass, copper, or bronze. And yes, I do like that, when elves were busy dividing themselves into high, wood, dark and more, the dragonborn were bomchickawahwahing their subraces away.

[Ralanr]

I wonder if the reason the dragonborns are somewhat lacking, is because the authors wanted to keep a more Tolkien flavored setting. They didn't want to risk flocks of dragonborn parties populating AL events.

At least initially. I haven't been to an AL event in awhile, but I'm guessing Volo's guide has drastically changed the species dynamic.

Also, I don't know if this has been mentioned, but aside from paladins, dragonborn also make pretty good bards. Especially valor bards. One of my favorite characters was a valor bard dragonborn who managed to kill a dragon using the cantrip vicious mockery. :smallbiggrin:

I think it's more that they had a stigma with being a core race in 4e and didn't want to make them too strong so they wouldn't be so commonly seen from optimization and get a bunch of backlash on how draconic humanoids with tits don't belong in D&D.

But cat people are fine apparently.

Course that's another topic entirely.

[Ninja-Radish]

I think it's more that they had a stigma with being a core race in 4e and didn't want to make them too strong so they wouldn't be so commonly seen from optimization and get a bunch of backlash on how draconic humanoids with tits don't belong in D&D.

But cat people are fine apparently.

Course that's another topic entirely.

I think you're right but that just makes me lose alot of respect for the WOTC crew. Don't do something half-assed. Either fully integrate it into the game, or don't put it into the game at all. This passive aggressive "We'll put it in but make it suck" BS irritates me.

[strangebloke]

I think it's more that they had a stigma with being a core race in 4e and didn't want to make them too strong so they wouldn't be so commonly seen from optimization and get a bunch of backlash on how draconic humanoids with tits don't belong in D&D.

But cat people are fine apparently.

Course that's another topic entirely.


I think you're right but that just makes me lose alot of respect for the WOTC crew. Don't do something half-assed. Either fully integrate it into the game, or don't put it into the game at all. This passive aggressive "We'll put it in but make it suck" BS irritates me.

I think that it's more a case of them trying to make the rare races more specialized.

Hence:
vHumans are good at everything; feats are good for every build.
Humans are actually pretty good at everything as well. You can get three sixteens!
Dwarves can be most things; armor proficiency is great for a lot of STR builds.
Elves can be most things; movement speed and/or cantrips are good for almost everyone.

Meanwhile:
Both Half-Orc abilities are designed to make them beefy frontliners.
Gnomes may as well have 'wizard' written over their heads in giant flaming letters.
Tieflings are a little more flexible, but their abilities combo very nicely with a warlock or sorcerer.
Dragonborn fit this mold as well. They get an AOE attack that shores up a major weakness of their intended classes, and they get resistance to elemental damage which also shores up a major weakness. (no reflex save)

The problem is that unlike the tiefling and half-elf bonuses, which scale, the dragonbreath does not. In a more general sense, the dragonborn's numbers just are not big enough.

(Yes, half-elves break this argument of mine, as do several of the later races. I would still argue that this looks like it was intentional on WotC's part.)

[EvilAnagram]

I think it's more that they had a stigma with being a core race in 4e and didn't want to make them too strong so they wouldn't be so commonly seen from optimization and get a bunch of backlash on how draconic humanoids with tits don't belong in D&D.

But cat people are fine apparently.

Course that's another topic entirely.

I doubt they intentionally gimped them. I think they simply vastly overestimate the value of the breath attack.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

I doubt they intentionally gimped them. I think they simply vastly overestimate the value of the breath attack.

Considering these are the same people who think Aggressive (bonus action extra move towards enemy), Menacing (free Proficiency in Intimidate) and Powerful Build (count as 1 size larger for Push/Pull/Drag/Lift/Carry capacity) is somehow not only equivalent to Menacing, Relentless Endurance (shrug off a killing blow 1/day) and Savage Attacks (+1 damage dice when critting with melee weapons), but so much stronger it needs a -2 Intelligence penalty to balance it?

...I'd suggest they just basically don't know how to balance out races at all.

...Really makes me miss the 4e racial formula...

[TheCrowing1432]

They do get some decent feat options in Unearthed Arcana.

But nothing to improve their breath weapon.

Least they can fly now.

Though instead of feats, these things should have been racial substitutes, similar to how the half elves got racial substitutes in the sword coast adventuring guide.

[EvilAnagram]

The problem is that unlike the tiefling and half-elf bonuses, which scale, the dragonbreath does not.
Do you mean it does not scale enough? Because it scales every four or five levels.

[TheCrowing1432]

Do you mean it does not scale enough? Because it scales every four or five levels.

It doesnt scale enough. Every single class in the game has ways of doing as much or more damage then the breath weapon, so its almost always the inferior option to choose, unless of course you have enemies lined up in a cone/line.

[Ralanr]

They do get some decent feat options in Unearthed Arcana.

But nothing to improve their breath weapon.

Least they can fly now.

Though instead of feats, these things should have been racial substitutes, similar to how the half elves got racial substitutes in the sword coast adventuring guide.

I really don't like the idea of flight on dragonborn. Especially with bringing reptilian wings into melee combat.

Seriously why does anyone think it's cool? You're more likely to get crippled from flight this way.

[EvilAnagram]

It doesnt scale enough. Every single class in the game has ways of doing as much or more damage then the breath weapon, so its almost always the inferior option to choose, unless of course you have enemies lined up in a cone/line.

Well, yes. Every single class in the game has ways of doing as much or more damage than a Hellish Rebuke, but it provides Tieflings with an option they otherwise might not have had. With Dragonborn, they're well-outfitted to play as three classes: Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins. They can be okay as Sorcerers or Warlocks, but that's where they excel. The breath weapon, in those cases, keys off of a secondary ability modifier (unlikely to be under 14), and it provides the character with an AoE that's actually pretty damn useful in early levels. Sure, they're better with an axe or a sword, but if their enemies happen to be grouped (which isn't exactly a rare occurrence), they essentially have access to a close burst spell that scales. Sure, it's highly unlikely that a Dragonborn at level twelve is going to use it. He has two attacks and some special abilities besides, but at level 1-4 it's capable of wiping out those kobolds swarming you, and at level 5-7 it still might see some use against mooks or that troll no one prepared for. If it were a bonus action, like it was in 4e, it would be fine. It's not enough for the whole race, but it's not a bad ability. Give them extra unarmed damage, some bonus proficiency, or an AC calculation like the Lizardfolk, and it's a perfectly fine race.

[Zalabim]

Considering these are the same people who think Aggressive (bonus action extra move towards enemy), Menacing (free Proficiency in Intimidate) and Powerful Build (count as 1 size larger for Push/Pull/Drag/Lift/Carry capacity) is somehow not only equivalent to Menacing, Relentless Endurance (shrug off a killing blow 1/day) and Savage Attacks (+1 damage dice when critting with melee weapons), but so much stronger it needs a -2 Intelligence penalty to balance it?

...I'd suggest they just basically don't know how to balance out races at all.

...Really makes me miss the 4e racial formula...
The -2 Intelligence penalty is for flavor. It's not supposed to balance out stronger racial features. Balance doesn't work that way.

It doesnt scale enough. Every single class in the game has ways of doing as much or more damage then the breath weapon, so its almost always the inferior option to choose, unless of course you have enemies lined up in a cone/line.
Well, it is a line/cone. It'd be odd if it were a strong single target attack. It is disappointing that it scales so poorly their favored classes often need several enemies lined up together (rather than a reasonably achievable 2 or 3) to make it worth using.

[Zardnaar]

Breath weapon as bonus action scales like a cantrip. A high elf can snag the AoE cantrip from PotA and at level 5 get a similar ability and damage at will that scales.
Drow and Tieflings are also in the poo box.

[strangebloke]

Breath weapon as bonus action scales like a cantrip. A high elf can snag the AoE cantrip from PotA and at level 5 get a similar ability and damage at will that scales.
Drow and Tieflings are also in the poo box.

It's not a cantrip though. It's a once per short rest ability.

[KorvinStarmast]

Breath weapon as bonus action scales like a cantrip. A high elf can snag the AoE cantrip from PotA and at level 5 get a similar ability and damage at will that scales.
Drow and Tieflings are also in the poo box. You say that like it's a bad thing. :smallbiggrin:

[Citadel97501]

Breath weapon as bonus action scales like a cantrip. A high elf can snag the AoE cantrip from PotA and at level 5 get a similar ability and damage at will that scales.
Drow and Tieflings are also in the poo box.

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but what cantrip are you talking about?

[DarkKnightJin]

Since the thread is already necro'd, I'll dump my 2 coppers. Not sure of anybody already suggested anything like this to 'fix' Dragonborn in 5e.

Give them the feat Dragon Hide for free at first level.
Possibly including the +1 that it normally gives.

Then, turn the Breath Weapon into a cantrip, or at least give it the 5-6 recharge that every other breath weapon in the game seems to have.

It still won't make the Dragonborn as 'good' as Lizardfolk, but it would give them at least *SOMETHING* worthwile.

[Finback]

The Dragonborn are men, (or maybe dragon men, but maybe a dragon)

And the dragonborn can't see in the NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIGHT

[Finback]

A party having a Lizardfolk as a member of a Dragonborn clan might have been nice.

I've done this before, with a clan of dragonborn/lizardfolk/kobolds who had been under the tutelage of a gold dragon who had since left this plane, but they chose to continue his teachings.

[Dudewithknives]

The only issue I have with them is why the crap they do not have dark vision.

[McSkrag]

Funny thing--almost every new female player I've introduced to D&D has immediately gravitated toward dragonborn (as have many of the teenage boys). There's something about dragons...

I do give them darkvision and am flexible about the +2 stat (being willing to shift it to DEX for particular classes and people that I know aren't munchkins).


+1 for PhoenixPhyre's approach.

I also see a lot of younger players want to be a Dragonborn because dragons.

Most of them, especially new players, don't understand build optimization. So I do the same thing and give them darkvision and help them shuffle the the +2 and +1 to fit their character concept.

It is much more important for them have a character they love and that is not gimped than strictly enforce rules.

I would love to see Dragonborn be given official subraces the like Tieflings have.

[dmteeter]

Dragonborn make great paladins. They fit into a niche that most new players i play with really enjoy.
Their breath weapon is plenty powerful for a free every short rest ability.
Why do they need darkvision they never had it before. and every starting pack pretty much has torches.
Comparing 5e races to 3.5( A superhero game pretending to be d&d) or 4e( a mmorpg for people who don't have computers) is pretty pointless.

[Millstone85]

I've done this before, with a clan of dragonborn/lizardfolk/kobolds who had been under the tutelage of a gold dragon who had since left this plane, but they chose to continue his teachings.This sounds like a great alternative to hobgoblins/bugbears/goblins.

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyway, to the topic of dragonborn: those things shouldn't have existed at all, even less as a race in core book. Another blight 4e inflicted upon D&D as a whole. Likewise with most of the Volo's races, but that horse is out of the barn.
Dragonborn make great paladins. Yep.

[LtPowers]

Their breath weapon is plenty powerful for a free every short rest ability.

The problem is that above level 5 or so you're almost always better off using either a cantrip or multiple weapon attacks rather than using the breath weapon. It becomes very situational at that point.


Powers &8^]

[strangebloke]

This sounds like a great alternative to hobgoblins/bugbears/goblins.

Or you can just broadly dump all the races into four categories:

Drakonids(Lizardfolk, Dragonborn, Kobolds, Dragons)
Redbloods(Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, Genasi, Tieflings, Aasimar, etc.)
Grayskins(Orcs, Goblinoids, Goliaths, Giants)
Beastmen(Aaracockra, Tortles, Centaurs, Minotaurs, etc.)

Drakonid civs have a working caste system, with the kobolds acting as dedicated laborers and craftsmen, the Dragonborn acting as administrators, warriors, merchants, and diplomats, and the Lizardfolk acting as hunters, scouts, and pioneers. Dragons of course act as the high priests and rulers.

Redbloods are the usual humanoid civs with a variety of races, some being more closed-off than each other. Interbreeding is very possible. Halfling is Human/Dwarf, Gnome is Elf/Dwarf, and Half-Elves are what you'd expect. Genasi and Tieflings and such are redbloods influenced by magic.

The various shades of Grayskins tend towards moral extremism, and so they are constantly fighting. In my setting the Grayskin's ideology actually informs what they become, with the greatest of their kind growing larger and turning into Ogres and eventually Giants. So Hobgoblins are led by Fire giants, Orcs by Frost Giants, Goliaths by Storm Giants, Bugbears by Hill Giants, and Goblins by Stone Giants. Half-Orcs are orcs who adopt Redblooded culture, and can eventually turn into Cloud Giants.

Beastmen are essentially either planar immigrants or magical aberrations, and as such they don't have a unified culture.

I like this system for races because, in the event that somebody wants to play something really weird, I have a unified racial system that helps me figure out how they are viewed by various NPCs. So a giant might view an orc patronizingly, a human as a potential servant/slave, and a dragonborn as an enemy agent.

...But this is all off-topic.

My fix for Dragonborn was to make the breath weapon a bonus action and to give them darkvision. Easy Peasy. Since it allows for a single powerful turn, it gives the race a niche that most other races don't, and I think that makes them pretty interesting to play with.

[Arkhios]

I have only one issue with them: that they exist at all.

I get it that many people are enthusiastic about dragons, but a dragonborn is not even close to being a same thing.

I found the whole race boring when it was introduced in 4th edition, and my opinion has not changed since.

Note: I'm aware there were dragonborns in 3rd edition, but they were nothing like these oddities and I don't count them equals one bit.

[Mr.Spastic]

I have tried to give them a slight boost in my games.
1. They get a plus +2 to strength or charisma and a +1 to con. Bit weird but I never have players who want the original stats because they typically don't play paladins or bladelocks.
2. I gave the breath weapon a recharge roll of a 5-6 at the end of their turn. Allows for better usage and it counts as a spell for a draconic sorcerers elemental bonus damage
3. Gave darkvision
Basically I did most of this because my players wanted better stats for a barbarian and a sorcerer.

[Tiadoppler]

I also try to boost the Dragonborn race a bit, for those few players who really want to be Dragons.

Dragonborn at my table (very roleplay/comedy/concept oriented, not high optimization) get only +1 Str, instead of +2, but they have wings (a la Winged Tiefling subrace - no flying in Heavy Armor). It's not a good for optimization, but it ends up as a very draconic character, especially with interesting multiclass choices (so far, they've all ended up taking a couple levels in Draconic Sorcerer, coupled with something more melee-y).

[Mr.Spastic]

I also try to boost the Dragonborn race a bit, for those few players who really want to be Dragons.

Dragonborn at my table (very roleplay/comedy/concept oriented, not high optimization) get only +1 Str, instead of +2, but they have wings (a la Winged Tiefling subrace - no flying in Heavy Armor). It's not a good for optimization, but it ends up as a very draconic character, especially with interesting multiclass choices (so far, they've all ended up taking a couple levels in Draconic Sorcerer, coupled with something more melee-y).

Personally I'd let them keep the stats but take away all of the other abilities except resistance. So no breath weapon.

[Tiadoppler]

Personally I'd let them keep the stats but take away all of the other abilities except resistance. So no breath weapon.

So far I haven't had a problem. I thought about taking away resistance (Everyone who wants to be a dragon, also wants to breath fire. Go figure.), but Dragonborn + Draconic sorcerer + Barbarian is so... awkward... to play that I felt bad about decreasing their power even more. If I had to DM a more optimized game, I'd rethink that choice (or just go RAW Dragonborn, or let them use the RAW Winged Tiefling stats)

[BullyWog]

i am having a lot of fun playing a Dragonborn wizard. True it is not "optimal",just fun. At 6'6'', 300 lb in a military uniform, able to breath fire, and with intimidation he doesn't look like a squishy wizard. That has enabled him to get out of some close spots without much violence. Breath weapon is not that powerful, but it can be very intimidating. The resistance, in my wizards case to fire, is especially valuable for those rare instances when the best tactic is fireball the room you are in. I can sculpt spells around my comrades and mitigate my own damage to survive.

[Theodoric]

One of my players currently has a (red) Dragonborn Barbarian character and he's having a lot of fun but mechanics and RP-wise. I guess ultimately it's not that different from a Half-Orc conceptually, but the dragonborn has less cultural 'baggage', at least.

[MThurston]

This race was made because people want to be half dragons.

Silly if you ask me. Will never play the race.

[Dudu]

I don't like it. They look silly, to be honest.

I love dragons. Real, big lizards with bat wings that breath fire or something. But not half-dragon half-something else. Dragon-horse, dragonfey, dragon-people, they all look awful to me.

Although...

They do remind me of Garr, from Breath of Fire 3.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/bof/images/b/bf/BoFIII_Garr_Artwork.png/revision/latest?cb=20121028124023

...which can be cool, as a very, very rare race.

[Knaight]

I'll take them over elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes - but I'm generally not particularly fond of non human PCs just being expected in a setting. It's one thing when Lord of the Rings has elves and dwarves, it's another when a ton of people make inferior copies with them. Dragonborn at least have the distinction of being their own thing.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'll take them over elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes - but I'm generally not particularly fond of non human PCs just being expected in a setting. It's one thing when Lord of the Rings has elves and dwarves, it's another when a ton of people make inferior copies with them. Dragonborn at least have the distinction of being their own thing.

I set out with the intention of making a "sensible" kitchen-sink setting. The goal is to have (somewhere in the world) every player option. Doing this in a coherent fashion meant I had to completely throw away all the existing lore and build it from scratch.

My dragonborn are an artificial race, made by taking pregnant women and forcibly injecting/merging their infants' souls with fragments taken from captive dragons. It worked and they bred true, but there aren't many of them at all and they only exist in one area on one continent.

Of course, humans are an artificial race made by elves mixing hobgoblin, elven, and other soul-fragments back a long time ago. Orcs are basically the same except instead of elven they used porcine and other animal soul-fragments.

[Citadel97501]

I set out with the intention of making a "sensible" kitchen-sink setting. The goal is to have (somewhere in the world) every player option. Doing this in a coherent fashion meant I had to completely throw away all the existing lore and build it from scratch.

My dragonborn are an artificial race, made by taking pregnant women and forcibly injecting/merging their infants' souls with fragments taken from captive dragons. It worked and they bred true, but there aren't many of them at all and they only exist in one area on one continent.

Of course, humans are an artificial race made by elves mixing hobgoblin, elven, and other soul-fragments back a long time ago. Orcs are basically the same except instead of elven they used porcine and other animal soul-fragments.

That is awesome and creepy all at once :), very good...

[Dr. Cliché]

I have only one issue with them: that they exist at all.

I get it that many people are enthusiastic about dragons, but a dragonborn is not even close to being a same thing.

I found the whole race boring when it was introduced in 4th edition, and my opinion has not changed since.

I'd agree with this.

I could maybe get behind a dragon race in theory but Dragonborn aren't that race.

I think my biggest issue with them is that I find them to boring. They're a race of pseudo-dragons, they should be awsome. But they're just... not. There's just something about their general design that bores me to sleep. It looks really generic and really, I don't know... safe. Does that make sense? They just come across to me as the sort of bland anthropomorphic race that I'd expect to see in a half-arsed children's cartoon series.

Their mechanics perfectly reflect their bland, boring fluff and offer very little to build on.

Furthermore, these just seem like a race without a purpose. From a theme/flavour standpoint, we've already got Kobolds, Lizardmen, Half-Dragons etc.. Do we really need Dragonborn as well? Especially when their design seems to be 'half-dragons minus their tails'. And in terms of mechanics, we've already got dwarves and half-orcs/orcs as stout/strong races (not to mention Lizardmen).

Put simply, they don't seem to occupy any real niche - either in fluff or mechanics.


Likewise with most of the Volo's races, but that horse is out of the barn. Yep.

I don't mind some of the races in Volo's, but Tabaxi and Tritons seem very out of place, and Firbolgs just look really silly to me (it's the noses, I think - they all look like they're suffering from severe colds).

Also, Tritons suffer a similar issue to Dragonborn as (to my mind at least) they overlap too much with already existing races. We've already got like 4 different humanoid, aquatic races - do we really need a 5th?

[PhoenixPhyre]

That is awesome and creepy all at once :), very good...

I seem to do creepy pretty well...Sometimes I scare myself. I wrote an explanation of this (and blood/soul magic in general) from the PoV of one of the researchers in the (Evil) Empire that made the dragonborn--it almost made me sick.

You can read it on my setting website (https://www.admiralbenbo.org/index.php/the-council-lands/13-magic/94-blood-magic-and-nimbus-transplants), but be warned. It's pretty darn evil.

[Dr. Cliché]

I set out with the intention of making a "sensible" kitchen-sink setting. The goal is to have (somewhere in the world) every player option. Doing this in a coherent fashion meant I had to completely throw away all the existing lore and build it from scratch.

My dragonborn are an artificial race, made by taking pregnant women and forcibly injecting/merging their infants' souls with fragments taken from captive dragons. It worked and they bred true, but there aren't many of them at all and they only exist in one area on one continent.

If that was the official fluff for Dragonborn - perhaps with a more creepy/unsettling appearance to match - I think they could have been a fantastic race.

[Teaguethebean]

The only not underpowered race that gets +2 to Strength is Mountain Dwarf.
Pardon the half-orc has some good features with that relentless endurance, savage attacks, and free intimidation.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If that was the official fluff for Dragonborn - perhaps with a more creepy/unsettling appearance to match - I think they could have been a fantastic race.

I actually play mine pretty straight in game--they're the "proud warrior race" of the setting. Mainly because their civilization is under attack by frost beasts/giants. They're militaristic, but not expansionist (until maybe the threat is neutralized). Their empire is also composed of orcs and goblinoids. So physically & socially they're pretty stock dragonborn, except I give them tails. Because they really needed tails.

[DataNinja]

I really liked the fluff Dragonborn had when I played 4e - a society bound by honour, with many of them driven by the memory of their Empire that fell in conflict with the Tiefling kingdom. The importance of clan before the self. And the duality of the dragon gods Bahamut and Tiamat was played up - in dragonborn society, the only incorrect choice was to not choose at all. You owned your choice. Sure, more tended towards attitudes much more conducive to building society, but all in all it didn't matter what you did so much as how you went about doing it. That was all pretty cool.

However, I've not seen much of that fluff in 5e, probably because each of the specific settings had their own explanations for dragonborn. Which all differed from the generic Nentir Vale story that was assumed for 4e's stuff. Which is a shame, because as they are now, Dragonborn are rather lacklustre. Both mechanically, and fluffwise.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but what cantrip are you talking about?Sheriff: Please don't revive old threads.

And everyone else, please don't post in necro'd threads.