Question on Wraith Control

[AlexandraNelsen]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/wraith/

Since wraiths have a "Create Spawn" ability and the spawn remain under the control of the wraith that made them, how does that work if a Necromancer uses Command Undead on one? Would they have secondhand control over the wraiths their controlled one created before and/or after being controlled? I'd assume so, but I don't really see anything that says so one way or another.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm not sure about PF, but in 3.5 I could have sworn there was a rule that states that if two parties are controlling someone, they make CHA checks to see who's commands are followed.

[AlexandraNelsen]

I'm not sure about PF, but in 3.5 I could have sworn there was a rule that states that if two parties are controlling someone, they make CHA checks to see who's commands are followed.

I'm pretty sure you're right about that, I'm more curious about whether controlling one wraith can let a necromancer have more minions than they can control.

Say you control Bob the Wraith and he then goes and kills five people who become wraiths controlled by Bob. Do you then control six wraiths even though Bob is the only one under your direct control?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm pretty sure you're right about that, I'm more curious about whether controlling one wraith can let a necromancer have more minions than they can control.

Say you control Bob the Wraith and he then goes and kills five people who become wraiths controlled by Bob. Do you then control six wraiths even though Bob is the only one under your direct control?

I'm pretty sure that those Wraiths under the command of Bob wouldn't count toward the number of undead that the necormancer can control via Animate Undead.

This is also why spawning undead that can command their spawns are regarded as so game breaking.

Edit: Changed "Command Undead" to "Animate Undead"

[AlexandraNelsen]

I'm pretty sure that those Wraiths under the command of Bob wouldn't count toward the number of undead that the necormancer can control via Command Undead.

This is also why spawning undead that can command their spawns are regarded as so game breaking.

Thanks! That's what I thought, but couldn't find anything either way.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Thanks! That's what I thought, but couldn't find anything either way.

No problem. I actually made a typo; it's Animate Undead that has a cap, I don't think Command Undead has one.

[Grollub]

You control Bob the Wraith... and thru him the wraiths he spawns/controls..

You can't really issue direct commands to the "sub-wraiths" so expect Bob's minion to work to free Bob if the GM wants that to happen

[ColorBlindNinja]

You control Bob the Wraith... and thru him the wraiths he spawns/controls..

You can't really issue direct commands to the "sub-wraiths" so expect Bob's minion to work to free Bob if the GM wants that to happen

Why would they work to free Bob? Bob regards the necromancer as a friend. If the necromancer needs to, she can directly control Bob's minions with other spells.

[Grollub]

Why would they work to free Bob? Bob regards the necromancer as a friend. If the necromancer needs to, she can directly control Bob's minions with other spells.


Looking at Control Undead and Command Undead...

. Undead that fail their saves fall under your control, obeying your commands to the best of their ability, as if under the effects of control undead.


I don't see anything in either that says "The undead is your friend and works with you"... it says it is under your control. If your instructions aren't precise the undead can work against you.

[Florian]

Agreed. Control/Command doesn´t change their attitude or alignment, you just force them to obey.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Looking at Control Undead and Command Undead...

. Undead that fail their saves fall under your control, obeying your commands to the best of their ability, as if under the effects of control undead.


I don't see anything in either that says "The undead is your friend and works with you"... it says it is under your control. If your instructions aren't precise the undead can work against you.

Command Undead is like a Charm Person for undead. Control Undead is more akin to Dominate.

[Florian]

Command Undead is like a Charm Person for undead. Control Undead is more akin to Dominate.

Read the whole spell description. CU has numerous stages: Yes, it sets Intelligent Undead to "friendly" but you need to force the undead to take specific actions by winning an opposed CHA check.

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Command%20Undead

[ColorBlindNinja]

Read the whole spell description. CU has numerous stages: Yes, it sets Intelligent Undead to "friendly" but you need to force the undead to take specific actions by winning an opposed CHA check.

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Command%20Undead

You only have to make the CHA check to get the undead to do something it wouldn't normally do.

[Grollub]

You only have to make the CHA check to get the undead to do something it wouldn't normally do.

ya.. and typically most undead are going to try to kill you...

If the undead is intelligent... dont expect it to just "follow you like a puppy dog" it can think, and it *could* attempt to subvert orders/commands, so that it can be free.

[Florian]

Typical case of overrating what "friendly" means, same as people thinking that "Charm Person" is broken as it works like dominate.

[ColorBlindNinja]

ya.. and typically most undead are going to try to kill you...

If the undead is intelligent... dont expect it to just "follow you like a puppy dog" it can think, and it *could* attempt to subvert orders/commands, so that it can be free.

The spell says it regards you as a friend. It wont' attack you, the text is clear on this. You only need to make the CHA check if you want it to rescue drowning puppies or something.

[Hackulator]

The spell says it regards you as a friend. It wont' attack you, the text is clear on this. You only need to make the CHA check if you want it to rescue drowning puppies or something.

Pretty much this.

HOWEVER, if the undead you have charmed has a bunch of spawn that are intelligent, they might realize whats going on and if you haven't been SUPER careful about forcing their creator to give them specific orders regarding you, they could gang up and murder you to free their daddy.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Pretty much this.

HOWEVER, if the undead you have charmed has a bunch of spawn that are intelligent, they might realize whats going on and if you haven't been SUPER careful about forcing their creator to give them specific orders regarding you, they could gang up and murder you to free their daddy.

I still don't know why they would do this. The original Wraith thinks your his buddy, why would his spawns attack you? Further more, if Command Undead is anything like Charm Person, it's a DC 25 Sense Motive check to even realize he's being charmed.

Edit: Charm Person has nothing to do with it, Sense Motive itself gives rules for this sort of thing.

[Hackulator]

I still don't know why they would do this. The original Wraith thinks your his buddy, why would his spawns attack you? Further more, if Command Undead is anything like Charm Person, it's a DC 25 Sense Motive check to even realize he's being charmed.

Edit: Charm Person has nothing to do with it, Sense Motive itself gives rules for this sort of thing.

It is a DC 25 sense motive check, but as you say those rules are in sense motive. Nowhere in the spells does it say that is the only way to realize. The sense motive check is just watching the charmed person and realizing they are acting weird with no context. It's not unreasonable for someone to figure it out when the evil undead who just wants to kill people is following the orders of some fleshbag. Then they kill you because their loyalty is to their creator and they want him free so that they in turn are free from your influence.

[Grollub]

It is a DC 25 sense motive check, but as you say those rules are in sense motive. Nowhere in the spells does it say that is the only way to realize. The sense motive check is just watching the charmed person and realizing they are acting weird with no context. It's not unreasonable for someone to figure it out when the evil undead who just wants to kill people is following the orders of some fleshbag. Then they kill you because their loyalty is to their creator and they want him free so that they in turn are free from your influence.

Most intelligent undead hate living things... so it would appear out of sorts if their "master" is some repulsive fleshbag.. the sub-minions (depending on int) notice the "charm" and if nothing else ... just to kill another fleshbag and feast on his essence, kill you.. nm the fact of freeing their "undead master"

[ColorBlindNinja]

Most intelligent undead hate living things... so it would appear out of sorts if their "master" is some repulsive fleshbag.. the sub-minions (depending on int) notice the "charm" and if nothing else ... just to kill another fleshbag and feast on his essence, kill you.. nm the fact of freeing their "undead master"

Wraiths don't have the Sense Motive scores to make that likely, though. Also, if they try anything, I'll have Bob the Wraith tell them to knock it off.