Where Does Starting Gold Come From? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Mars Ultor

2017-07-03, 02:15 PM

Where does starting gold come from? The average Fighter/Paladin/Ranger starts play with 150 gold. A Druid, the poorest of the classes, begins with 50 GP.

D&D states that a laborer earns an SP per day, but that's an unskilled common laborer and most earn about three SP per day. In fact, the SP figure is actually an equivalent as most people never actually got paid in silver, their wealth was in what they could grow or raise. Even tradesmen usually accepted payment in barter rather than actual coinage. Pay me in eggs and I'll cobble together some shoes.

Even if we presume that coins were more ubiquitous than they actually were, there's the question of savings. Out of that eighteen silver per week, most was being spent on necessities. If we assume that people earned that for fifty weeks per year (unlikely), and were able to save five percent per year (arbitrary), that leaves one with less than five SP per year. Since an ox is 15 GP, it would take an individual farmer thirty years to afford to buy one. This matches reality to a degree, since several farmers often bought one ox and took turns using it to plough their fields.

A member of a Fyrd, sort of the Anglo-Saxon militia or National Guard, was eventually expected to be equipped with a spear, shield, short sword or axe, and sometimes a helmet. Either his landlord or extended family was required to supply the weapons depending on the time period. The combined cost of a short spear, a light wooden shield, a short sword, is 14 GP. There's no helmet cost, but it's reasonable to assume that it costs more than a heavy wooden shield, so let's figure an additional 10 GP. All together it costs 25 GP to have a minimally equipped warrior. It was a community obligation to produce a part-time soldier, and it took a community to afford it.

The previously mentioned equipment, as well as a byrnie (chain tunic) and longsword was the level expected of a "housecarl," a lord's personal guard, or high-value, full-time soldiers. A chain shirt is 100 GP, and upgrading a shortsword to a longsword adds 5 GP. A well-equipped and well-trained fighting man had weapons and armor costing 130 GP. You were paid well to fight, but you had to be rich just to get started.

This indicates that PCs are overwhelmingly from the upper class. Accruing 50 GP and having your kid trained to be a Druid would be limited to the wealthy. The street urchin who becomes a rogue isn't happening. The Rogue starts with a minimum of 50 GP, the average is 125 GP. You weren't working with Fagin, you're a kleptomaniac daughter of the gentry.

The peasant chosen by a god who grows to become a Paladin is a myth. You have to count on Zeus coming down in a shower of gold, impregnating a farmer's daughter, and leaving the gold behind to get a shot at the high life of a Paladin. And while Zeus often visited earth to sleep with mortal women, it was usually in the form of an animal; an animal without money.

Even a lowly NPC Warrior has 75 starting gold pieces. He's not some idiot bumpkin who couldn't afford to be a fighter, he's an idiot with rich relatives. He's really the second or third son of a local lord. Warriors are the "Socs" of D&D, they fight the Greasers and the Vikings in the spring and spend the rest of the year drinking too much ale and riding around on their ponies.

Can you imagine the cost of trying to get your kid into a university of magic? Besides tuition, room and board, you've got to cough up an absolute minimum of 30 GP and spend 100 GP on a familiar. "Another bill from school! How much for a bloody frog? And what's a 'technology fee'? What's this?--he's burnt another one of those pointed hats with the stars on--they're not cheap! Bring your idiot son home, Gladys. I'm not spending another copper on that boy."

PCs in D&D are the children of lesser nobility. The eldest son is going to run the estate when the lord is dead, the daughter is going to be married off, the younger kids are given a small fortune and sent off to harass barkeeps and torture goblins.

King539

2017-07-03, 02:17 PM

It's generally assumed that the whole village chipped in to help Joe Fighter or Bob Wizard start adventuring. The Rogue stole the money, the Cleric was equipped by his church for a holy quest, etc.

The_Jette

2017-07-03, 02:59 PM

The average Fighter/Ranger/Paladin doesn't actually start off with 150gp. They start off with equipment. A longsword is worth 15gp. That's 10% starting wealth. A backpack, 10 torches, bed roll, blanket, flint and steel, and 50' of rope takes up an extra 3 gold 5 silver. Three waterskins add up to 3gp. a set of studded leather armor is another 25gp. A chain shirt is 100gp. And, a heavy wooden shield costs 7gp. If the F/R/P takes a chain shirt, a heavy wooden shield, a longsword, the starting kit, and three waterskins, he's already got 128 gold 5 silver worth of equipment. That's not including field rations, or other useful adventuring gear, like a pry bar.

denthor

2017-07-03, 03:22 PM

It was a random roll.

Dice game after all.

Some fluff like above you found a chest of silver you had rich parents you were a soldier. You were kicked out of the wizard's tower with equipment.

Or like most of my characters you got the standard substandard training . I have had some pretty poor characters. Padded armor dagger 1st level fighter

Darts at 5 silver apiece. 4 for a gold piece.

Boots low hard .

20 arrows no bow slings find stones in the wilderness penalty for not being round.

Best was the 1 hit point mage he went down wading a swamp with leaches.

Mars Ultor

2017-07-03, 05:13 PM

The average Fighter/Ranger/Paladin doesn't actually start off with 150gp. They start off with equipment.

I realize that; in facts it's noted in the equipment section. You're not going on a shopping spree, it has been assumed that this is stuff you've accumulated.

But while a longsword is only a tenth of a PC Fighter's wealth, it's the cumulative lifetime wealth of several ordinary people. Even if a PC started with a shortsword and a light shield, killed some goblins, bought leather armor, killed some more goblins, bought a bow, etc. He still had to get the initial 13 or gold from somewhere.

FreddyNoNose

2017-07-03, 05:17 PM

I realize that; in facts it's noted in the equipment section. You're not going on a shopping spree, it has been assumed that this is stuff you've accumulated.

But while a longsword is only a tenth of a PC Fighter's wealth, it's the cumulative lifetime wealth of several ordinary people. Even if a PC started with a shortsword and a light shield, killed some goblins, bought leather armor, killed some more goblins, bought a bow, etc. He still had to get the initial 13 or gold from somewhere.

Well, if you are DM and feel strongly about the issue, you could just make a rule that anything they don't "spend" is lost. Would that make you feel better? I fail to see what the big deal is about this issue. Look, they got their gear and some money to start their adventures.

Mars Ultor

2017-07-03, 05:22 PM

It's generally assumed that the whole village chipped in to help Joe Fighter or Bob Wizard start adventuring. The Rogue stole the money, the Cleric was equipped by his church for a holy quest, etc.

I don't think it's the case that "It takes a village to raise an adventurer" is generally assumed. If that was the case, the village would demand some recompense. That's a bunch of wealth medieval English or Dutch merchants and minor nobility pooling their money, getting a charter from the king, and forming a trading company.

"The Royal Greyhawk Exploration Company is looking for promising young adventurers with a brave heart and a strong sword arm to travel into the Orc-lands in search of previously stolen objects. The right candidates will be equipped and supplied with the necessary arms and armor. The RGE Co. will pay a total of 20% of recovered value, after expenses, to be shared among the volunteers. Orphans preferred."

Mars Ultor

2017-07-03, 05:30 PM

Well, if you are DM and feel strongly about the issue, you could just make a rule that anything they don't "spend" is lost. Would that make you feel better? I fail to see what the big deal is about this issue. Look, they got their gear and some money to start their adventures.

I don't have a problem that adventurers start with gold and a fortune of equipment, I just hadn't thought about the economics of it before. I don't need to "feel better" about anything, I found it curious. If you don't think it's a "big deal," don't waste your time commenting. To me, it's interesting that we assume a 1st-level PC is just some guy with a sword, but actually he's had access to more wealth than most ordinary people can ever dream of seeing.

DEMON

2017-07-03, 05:33 PM

I realize that; in facts it's noted in the equipment section. You're not going on a shopping spree, it has been assumed that this is stuff you've accumulated.

But while a longsword is only a tenth of a PC Fighter's wealth, it's the cumulative lifetime wealth of several ordinary people. Even if a PC started with a shortsword and a light shield, killed some goblins, bought leather armor, killed some more goblins, bought a bow, etc. He still had to get the initial 13 or gold from somewhere.

Even a 1st level adventurer has a backstory. They get their wealth from "there". It's usually assumed this is not their first rodeo first day of adventuring. It's also done so the PCs don't have to run around solely with quarterstaffs and dirty rags.

If your game is build around a different premise, giving your PCs 10 gp to share is perfectly fine, albeit quite limiting.

tedcahill2

2017-07-03, 05:34 PM

I think this is answered to the extent it can be. Starting gold is more accurately starting wealth. It's a representation of the gear that budding adventurers were able to acquire by various means throughout their upbringing. It might be a sword gifted you by an uncle, a set of thieves tools you scrounged together over the years, or a spell component pouch you scavenged for in the woods near your home.

What it isn't, in my opinion, is someone walking into a shop with 100 gold and outfitting themselves.

InvisibleBison

2017-07-03, 05:49 PM

But while a longsword is only a tenth of a PC Fighter's wealth, it's the cumulative lifetime wealth of several ordinary people.

This is just not true. You're using the DMG's rules for paying hirelings to determine average NPC income, but you should be using the Profession rules, because the hireling rules are for adventurers hiring minions, not ordinary farmers. A basic 1st level commoner can make 8.5 gp a week by using the Profession skill - which can easily increase if we allow him to make use of any of a number of options for boosting his skill check - and even assuming that 90% of that is spent on supporting himself, paying taxes, etc, that translates to 44.2 gp per year of extra income. So under the most absolutely unfavorable assumptions, it would take no more than four years to raise enough gold to outfit any starting adventurer. The real question isn't where does starting gold come from - it's why is starting gold so low?

Douglas

2017-07-03, 05:56 PM

Even if we presume that coins were more ubiquitous than they actually were, there's the question of savings. Out of that eighteen silver per week, most was being spent on necessities. If we assume that people earned that for fifty weeks per year (unlikely), and were able to save five percent per year (arbitrary), that leaves one with less than five SP per year. Since an ox is 15 GP, it would take an individual farmer thirty years to afford to buy one. This matches reality to a degree, since several farmers often bought one ox and took turns using it to plough their fields.
I think you moved a decimal place somewhere. 18 sp/week * 50 weeks * 0.05 savings rate = 45 sp, or 4.5 gp per year. That ox will take a bit over 3 years to save up for with these assumptions.

FreddyNoNose

2017-07-03, 07:28 PM

I don't have a problem that adventurers start with gold and a fortune of equipment, I just hadn't thought about the economics of it before. I don't need to "feel better" about anything, I found it curious. If you don't think it's a "big deal," don't waste your time commenting. To me, it's interesting that we assume a 1st-level PC is just some guy with a sword, but actually he's had access to more wealth than most ordinary people can ever dream of seeing.

Interesting as a piece of bread......

Crake

2017-07-03, 07:35 PM

A Druid, the poorest of the classes, begins with 50 GP.

I stopped reading here because I saw this and just had to correct you :smalltongue:

Monks are the poorest class. They don't have 5d4*10gp like everyone else, for 125gp, they have 5d4... so... 12.5gp

AnimeTheCat

2017-07-03, 07:46 PM

What if the kid bartered his eggs for a dagger or a sword or he was the apprentice to a blacksmith and crafted his own armor? Taking the time to slowly build up his adventuring kit to get out of his village and find fortune. Most small villages had a smithy, if for no other reason than to make horse shoes, cutlery, tools, etc. Heck, even an axe would do too. As good at cutting limbs of a tree and it is limbs of a humanoid or animal. I don't think that the actual gold piece value should be stressed too much, but it is an interesting imagination exercise.

SirNibbles

2017-07-03, 08:51 PM

Starting gold/equipment is the stuff the adventurer has slowly acquired over time.

How did the character become a monk? They weren't simply born a monk.

They went to a monastery and trained for several years. They got their worthless stick and other stuff from the higher-ups at the monastery, plus they may have already had a few things from home.

__

Clothes are both free and not free as well, so you may want to take that into account.

"Gear for a character means adventuring gear, not clothes. Assume that your character owns at least one outfit of normal clothes. Pick any one of the following clothing outfits (see Clothing in Chapter 7: Equipment) for free: artisan’s outfit, entertainer’s outfit, explorer’s outfit, monk’s outfit, peasant’s outfit, scholar’s outfit, or traveler’s outfit." - Player's Handbook, page 24

EDIT: I made a stupid mistake by not reading. Thanks to those who pointed out that the Royal, Noble, and Courtier's Outfits are not available for selection and so the average price is much lower.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-07-03, 09:35 PM

The D&Dconomy is borked. Putting aside how rapidly treasure has to flow into and out of villain hoards (via mook hordes and hero swords), the prices of all sorts of things just don't make sense for anyone except maybe an adventurer. A full set of clothes costs the same as three square meals (unless you need cold-weather clothes, in which case you'd better start saving early), a cheap lock costs more than a sword, knives and barrels cost more than sturdy clothes, dogs cost more than mules, and ten-foot poles cost more than 10-foot ladders. And don't get me started on how magic-marts intersect with D&D's magic item crafting rules. Prices come from what works best for the game and WotC's idea of game balance, not from anything resembling plausible economics.

All else aside...there are plenty of tropes to help you out. This is my grandfather's sword, my mentor's shield, my former roommate's armor... Or you could say you got it the same way you get your next set of gear—you found it after beating even weaker monsters with even cheaper equipment.

zergling.exe

2017-07-03, 10:22 PM

"Gear for a character means adventuring gear, not clothes. Assume that your character owns at least one outfit of normal clothes. Pick any one of the following clothing outfits (see Clothing in Chapter 7: Equipment) for free: artisan’s outfit, entertainer’s outfit, explorer’s outfit, monk’s outfit, peasant’s outfit, scholar’s outfit, or traveler’s outfit." - Player's Handbook, page 24

On average, that's 28 gold for clothes (14 if you ignore the 200 for the royal outfit).

(This part of RAW is absurd and any player who tried to choose royal robes so that they could sell them would have a copy of the PHB thrown at them).

You don't have to worry about royal robes, the quote you provided lists the ones they can get for free already.

edit: I assume that would also bring down the average further since noble's clothes are unavailable as well.

Mordaedil

2017-07-04, 02:15 AM

A longsword costs 15 gold pieces to buy from a shop selling them and you might assume that means that the player had to spend 15 gold to pay a blacksmith to sell him a sword.

What is actually happening is that the sword is a hand-me-down from their parents, or a thing you stole from the militia you served with before your lord died or the town blacksmith took a bunch of iron tools that the villagers would normally need to survive with and reforged it into a sword to help you on your journey.

You didn't pay for starting gold equipment, it was a gift made from meager earnings, your own people putting their last hopes on you. Even something like chain armor takes a while to assemble, but can be done by basically anyone with access to a forge.

At least, that is my point of view. But I think you are right in that it isn't like players come from extremely humble beginnings.

Florian

2017-07-04, 02:32 AM

I think the assumption is, that even a starting character already has a fair bit of experience under its belt, that´s why it has PC class levels instead of NPC levels.

rel

2017-07-04, 02:56 AM

Backstory. It can be whatever you want as long as it ends with you showing up at the tavern as a level 1 character with starting equipment, no major advantages and a desire to do whatever the game is about.

I usually go with I ammased the gear while adventuring from level 0 to level 1.

Lvl 2 Expert

2017-07-04, 03:59 AM

They had a small farm. The ground belonged to the church, but they could sell the right to lease it, the small house and the shed on it, all their tools, their lifestock, last years supply of seeds and their wife and kids as slaves. And all that only paid for a single adventuring outfit.

Coidzor

2017-07-04, 04:16 AM

Clothes are both free and not free as well, so you may want to take that into account.

"Gear for a character means adventuring gear, not clothes. Assume that your character owns at least one outfit of normal clothes. Pick any one of the following clothing outfits (see Clothing in Chapter 7: Equipment) for free: artisan’s outfit, entertainer’s outfit, explorer’s outfit, monk’s outfit, peasant’s outfit, scholar’s outfit, or traveler’s outfit." - Player's Handbook, page 24

On average, that's 28 gold for clothes (14 if you ignore the 200 for the royal outfit).

(This part of RAW is absurd and any player who tried to choose royal robes so that they could sell them would have a copy of the PHB thrown at them).

That list already eliminates the Cleric's vestments, Cold Weather outfit, Courtier's outfit, Noble's outfit, and the Royal outfit. So, yeah, you should ignore the royal outfit along with several others, and RAW already forbids taking a Royal outfit at chargen.

Taking the ones that are on the list, you can average them together to get a result of 3.58 gp. Or just go with 1 sp on the low end or 10 gp on the high end.

Coidzor

2017-07-04, 05:18 AM

Since starting gold isn't included in the 3.5 SRD, I'll base my reply on the Pathfinder SRD.

A 1st level PC with 1 rank in Craft or Profession will earn an average of 7 GP/week. Barbarians don't have Profession as a class skill, so they'll earn an average of 5.5 GP/week. By using the Monthly Cost of Living rules, specifically the Destitute, Poor, and Average brackets, a PC will spend anywhere from 0 to 120 GP each year for food, rent, taxes, bribes, idle purchases, etc.

This gives everyone but Barbarians an annual profit range of 244 to 364 GP. Their starting wealth ranges from 1d6x10 to 5d6x10 GP, or 10 to 300 GP, which can be acquired in 2 to 64 weeks. Barbarians have an annual profit range of 146 to 286 GP. Their starting wealth is 3d6x10, or 30 to 180 GP, which can be acquired in 6 to 65 weeks.

It gets even more amusing in Pathfinder than that.

With the Alternate Profession Rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/alternate-profession-rules/), even a Monk could invest in a MW Mobile Business for 1.25 gp at 1st level, and either turn a profit of 90 gp per month working full-time or get 80 gp per month working 50% of the time, assuming Wisdom of 14-15. Wisdom of 10-11 generates either 80 or 70 when Taking 10.

A character with 125+ gp of starting wealth can instead establish a MW Small business right out the gate, 160 gp a month for working 50% of the time or 140 gp for having enough employees to not have to work at the business at all, and instead being able to pursue other things. 100 gp investment and a monthly profit of either 140 or 120 gp for the basic Small Business. Even someone with a Wisdom Bonus of +0 could invest 100 gp, hire 4 people, and then make 100 gp a month without being present simply by Taking 10.

With Downtime (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime/)in play, you can actually make the Profession Check / 10 in gp per day, which actually increases the income. So a person with Wis of +0 can net 391 gp of yearly income after 10 gp/month cost of living, a person with Wis of +2 would net 464 gp, and a person with Wis of +4 and MW tools would net 756 gp.

Then there's the fact that one can hire teams of laborers for 70 gp outright or 2-3 days and 35 gp and they'll make one 1.2 gp a day (or maybe 0.6 gp per day if they're not housed by the employer?) or take some time and spend 90 to get a Garden and a nice +10 bonus on using Profession to generate income AND it gives 1.8 gp per day on its own from Taking 10, so it pays for itself in about a month.

Sam K

2017-07-04, 05:35 AM

This indicates that PCs are overwhelmingly from the upper class. Accruing 50 GP and having your kid trained to be a Druid would be limited to the wealthy. The street urchin who becomes a rogue isn't happening. The Rogue starts with a minimum of 50 GP, the average is 125 GP. You weren't working with Fagin, you're a kleptomaniac daughter of the gentry.

PCs are effectively middle-to-upper class simply because they have skills which are generally in-demand and which few people possess, which in turn allows them to make money. You don't need 125 gold to go from street urchin to rogue, the fact that you are a rogue, not a street urchin, is what lets you have 125 gold. You don't need a pointy hat and a familiar to become a wizard: the fact that you are capable of becoming a wizard tend to get you a pointy hat and a pet toad (then, once you ARE a wizard, you might be expected to pay off your hat and toad - why do you think wizards have such a high starting age :)).

That being said, I generally agree with the idea that PCs would belong to at least the middle class, because that background just makes more sense. Someone whom can afford to eat well, and have enough spare time to have a hobby is more likely to become an adventurer than a destitute cottager whom eats only cabbage and have to do manual labour 18 hours a day.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-07-04, 09:50 AM

A 1st level PC with 1 rank in Craft or Profession will earn an average of 7 GP/week.
Initial response: "That can't be right. Either Pathfinder rewrote the economic stuff, or..."
Then I checked the d20 SRD. Even an untrained, 10-Wis Profession check gives, on average, five gold per week, more than double what a skilled laborer is supposed to earn (not to mention several times that of an unskilled laborer). A decently-optimized professional (4 ranks, Wisdom 14, Skill Focus) could make 9.5 gold per week, nearly double that value; most would fall between those "extremes". There should be a large number of unskilled peasants going into Profession-al jobs, until either the value of Profession drops or the value of unskilled labor rises enough to make up the difference. The only explanation I can think of is that peasants are forced to work where and how their lords say they do, reminiscent of the strictest forms of feudalism...which doesn't fit the kind of governing style most PC-friendly, good-aligned-ish kingdoms are supposed to have.
D&Dconomics, man.

TheYell

2017-07-04, 10:30 AM

The only explanation I can think of is that peasants are forced to work where and how their lords say they do, reminiscent of the strictest forms of feudalism...which doesn't fit the kind of governing style most PC-friendly, good-aligned-ish kingdoms are supposed to have.
D&Dconomics, man.

Aw, being tied to THE LAND beats being a homeless wanderer. You get access to a sheriff, high-tech mills, all the food you can kill and raise, professional armed security, and your kids are on the path to the same success as you have.

If it really offends a GM to have lump sum gold, it can be overcome by backstory. "Joe is a penniless son out to make his fortune...but he's in good with the local cleric, who sends him to the bishop with a letter of introduction, and the Bishop calls due a favor from the Count, and Joe has a job and the basic gear of a constable."

Mars Ultor

2017-07-04, 05:05 PM

I think the assumption is, that even a starting character already has a fair bit of experience under its belt, that´s why it has PC class levels instead of NPC levels.

An NPC Warrior is identical to a Fighter, with the exception of Hit Dice (d8 vs. d10) and Feats. A 1st level Human Warrior and 1st level Human Fighter are separated by one additional Feat and a couple of HP.

I wonder if a Fighter is just a Warrior with je ne sais quoi. He's able to take that extra step and continue to learn additional Feats, while a Warrior gets pretty good with a bow or Cleaving, but he can't pickup more specialized fighting styles as easily.

It's whatever it is that makes a someone a great Fighter pilot/Quarterback/Point Guard rather than a very good one.

Mars Ultor

2017-07-04, 05:12 PM

I think you moved a decimal place somewhere. 18 sp/week * 50 weeks * 0.05 savings rate = 45 sp, or 4.5 gp per year. That ox will take a bit over 3 years to save up for with these assumptions.

You're right. Nevermind.

Actually I think everything else stands with the exception of the ox. I had the 4.5 GP figure in mind originally when I was going to compare buying a pony (30 GP) to saving for a car. I deleted that, added the ox, and changed it to silver for some reason.

Mars Ultor

2017-07-04, 06:04 PM

Also, I think another explanation for the seemingly equal value of any given profession is that there's a massive shortage of skilled laborers, due to depopulation and nigh constant warfare. Then again, the PFSRD has varying wages for skilled NPC laborers, so perhaps it's a entry level wage given to murderhobos and vagabonds?

That brings up the issue of Masterwork weapons. Even a low-level skilled worker can earn a lot. A 1st-level expert (Weaponsmith) dwarf with no stat bonuses, Skill Focus in Weaponsmith, and an apprentice, has a +11 when crafting a sword. If they both Take 10 (allowed), this 1st level smith can create a Masterwork longsword in eight days. He'll pay 105 GP for materials, plus another 5 gold for his apprentice and overhead. Sales price is 315 GP. That's the equivalent of 25 GP per day profit.

What's the demand for Masterwork swords? If you find a good spot you're set for life. Get the business going, then get your nephew to take over while you sip ale in your own private grotto. How many adventurers can an area support before the whole economy is out of whack? A human Weaponsmith needs another two levels before he can achieve the same quality of production, however he can take a Feat in Skill Focus: Engraving, sign "Ulfberht" to every sword and charge a fortune.

In regard to your comment about depopulation, wages for everyone in Europe shot up in the 1350s after the Black Death had run its course. One third of the population was gone and though prices for most items had dropped (a surplus of food, etc.) there was a big demand for labor since a large portion of people were gone. I would suggest that goblins and orcs are mostly dangerous because they carry disease. Any place that needs adventurers has an already distorted economy because everyone is dying from the goblin pox and you've got to pay through the nose to find someone competent.

rel

2017-07-04, 11:58 PM

now I want to run a penniless commoner with 3D6 in order rolled stats the next time a campaign starts a t level 1...

Liquor Box

2017-07-05, 03:01 AM

That brings up the issue of Masterwork weapons. Even a low-level skilled worker can earn a lot. A 1st-level expert (Weaponsmith) dwarf with no stat bonuses, Skill Focus in Weaponsmith, and an apprentice, has a +11 when crafting a sword. If they both Take 10 (allowed), this 1st level smith can create a Masterwork longsword in eight days. He'll pay 105 GP for materials, plus another 5 gold for his apprentice and overhead. Sales price is 315 GP. That's the equivalent of 25 GP per day profit.

I don't think you can assume that most people are that optimised to do a particular think though.

To mechanics as a real life example, I expect most level 1 experts (people who have been mechanics for only a few years) might have 2 skill points in the mechanics skill. If 4 skill points represents years and years of training/study/experience in a job, your average mechanic might appretice for a couple of years, and even wouldn't devote himself to it fully. Maybe, if he gets to level 2 (and experienced mechanic) he might get up to 4 points.

I don't think most people in real life optimise themselves (which would mean to focus/specialise on a particular pursuit to the exclusion of most others, and to have foreknowledge of which pursuits were likely to be most profitable/powerful) at all. Not even half as much as we potentially could. I think that the rank and fil of DnD would be the same. Exceptional individuals (like PCs) might be optimised, but most people wouldn't be.

Lvl 2 Expert

2017-07-05, 03:19 AM

Still, a profession check lets you earn half your check result in gold pieces per week. With no tools, a minus one stat penalty, no assistant, no feats and a single rank in the skill (because it´s trained use only) you can make a steady pay check of 5 gold per week. That's almost three times as much as that unskilled laborer. Sure, most adventurers don't have a profession skill, but it serves to illustrate that slightly skilled work is valued quite a bit more in this world than unskilled work. A ranger in training moonlighting as a rat catcher or dog trainer could probably make something close to that 5 gold a week even while working parttime, working the weeks he's not out on some dangerous military scouting mission as part of his training that he may or may not be getting payed for. Because while he does not have a profession skill he does have other valuable skills with more than one rank, and stat bonuses, and the right equipment (in case of rat catching for instance plain wire traps, a simple non masterwork bow or a small dog). In general work also gets rewarded better if it's more dangerous. That's even one of the justifications behind adventurers being overladen with gold. But there are steps in between "sitting in a quiet workshop" and "dragons, charge!". A fighter could go after dangerous animals or join the police force, a cleric might be handling plague victims. They may not be able to cast any proper spells yet before level 1, but that doesn't mean they're not trying to help people. Ones they do stumble upon their first level adventurers of course start gaining rare skills, which are also more valuable. Yeah, a cleric could probably use healing magic to gain his starting gold in a few months at most before striking out into the wild.

Adventurers are not unskilled laborers. Not even before they start properly adventuring. That's the premise of the game. If you want to play someone who was literally a farm boy level 1 commoner until the day the gods granted him exceptional strength and a masterwork sword his entire family was murdered and he swore to get revenge using the single hatchet he could save from the burning building, then sure, don't take the starting gold. Maybe don't take any feats either, just work your way up to that first level. I'm guessing the makers thought that part of the story wasn't interesting enough to always act out.

Zombimode

2017-07-05, 06:04 AM

But while a longsword is only a tenth of a PC Fighter's wealth, it's the cumulative lifetime wealth of several ordinary people.

Thats hardly true. Check out the NPC wages in the DMG(2?) or Stronghold Builders Guidebook. Even the lowest paying Jobs come out at no less then 3 gp and thats in Addition to the cost of feeding them.

So yes, while a minimum wage will have to safe Money for quite a while (like a year or so) it is hardly the cumulative lifetime wealth.

Vizzerdrix

2017-07-05, 02:42 PM

A human commoner 1 gets 12 skill points to play with. If they put 4 in profession (farmer or teamster), 2 (cc) in survival, 2 in handle animal, and 4 in life applicable crafts (sewing, knitting, leather working, masonry, cooking, etc), they can take 10 on most things and make a comfy living.

Someone else did an in depth breakdown of this a few months back. May be worth digging up. If I recall, the average family farms make bank and could easily start a kid or two on the way to adventuring.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?525481-Commoners-are-richer-than-you-think-Pathfinder-edition&highlight=Commoner

I think that was it.

Mars Ultor

2017-07-05, 04:24 PM

However, I do have an issue with the idea that goblins and orcs are primary vectors for diseases, since D&D diseases can already be spread by tainted water, night hags, barbazu, pit fiends, dire rats, otyughs, filthy surroundings, mummies, anyone that's contracted the shakes and slimy doom, and so on. The probability of someone with 10 Constitution and no Fortitude save bonus passing the DCs for these diseases ranges from 45% to 5%, which is more than enough to explain massive depopulation.

There's a mini campaign for you. A lord hires the local group of adventurers to find out what's been happening to his peasants. They're dying in large numbers and the lord wants to know why. As the adventurers investigate each village they realize that these are the places they had visited and that they themselves are the disease vectors. As they've killed the dire rats and what-have-you, they've carried their infections all throughout town. The PCs have caused the villagers's deaths by bringing infectious diseases to every tavern along the way.

Mars Ultor

2017-07-05, 04:53 PM

Someone else did an in depth breakdown of this a few months back. May be worth digging up. If I recall, the average family farms make bank and could easily start a kid or two on the way to adventuring.

I think the issue is that the cash economy hasn't developed yet so the example in the link isn't possible. Joe the farmhand can't become Joe the Farmer because land isn't for sale. The king owns the land and loans it to his vassals, who loan it to the peasants. In return for having a place to live and grow food the peasants work the land and bring some of their produce to their local lord.

Joe the Farmer can't get a farm unless he's such a productive farmer as a helper that the lord gives him his own tract to manage. If Joe continues to produce he can continue living and working on that land. He's not "earning" anything, he's eating everything he produces, paying some in taxes, and bartering the rest if he can. No one is buying his excess eggs, they're trading him some excess pears in return. Joe the farmer can go his whole life without ever seeing a silver piece.

If he's lucky and he lives in a market town where he can sell his excess produce, he's still likely to do business mostly in barter. A string of of salted pork is worth more than a few copper or silver pieces. Meat to feed his family has actual value, precious metal coins only have value if enough people agree they have value. When the Spanish started bringing gold from the New World they destroyed the economy of Europe. Suddenly the gold everyone had agreed was rare--and therefore valuable--wasn't so rare.

People in D&D can't earn that much because most people don't have money and there's no incentive to produce enough to sell if people don't have money to afford it. Even lords don't have money, everything they have is in the value of their land. The gentry in England suddenly found themselves with large houses, large farms, and declining money when the industrial revolution started and a person could make more in a factory than they could on a farm. When WW I ended they were almost wiped out--mechanization was in full force and income taxes went way up. Having land is worthless if you can't get people to grow anything on it. "New Money" people were looked down on but they were the ones that actually had money. The "Old Money" people had big estates, titles, and little else.

That's why I'm opposed to property taxes, land is now a burden to most people--they're not raising crops or grazing sheep. It costs money to have a nice lawn and in return the town taxes you on it.

Celestia

2017-07-05, 09:41 PM

PCs are magically born at their respective race's adult age. They then undergo training until they reach their rolled starting age. When they become level one, their starting gold appears in their lap, and they use it to buy their equipment.

#trufax

unseenmage

2017-07-05, 09:42 PM

Bohandas

2017-07-05, 11:07 PM

rel

2017-07-06, 02:57 AM

Another option for making money: perform checks. A character can make a perform check untrained and the check takes somewhere between a day and an evening depending on it's nature. hitting a DC 10 only nets a few coppers but a DC 15 gives you a reasonable amount of SP.

A dirt farmer who decides to become an adventurer could forage while seeking adventure that they can handle (pretty much nothing) by day and in the evening tell stories of their adventures in the local tavern (perform check).

Between not paying for food most days, money from performances and whatever you manage to find adventuring you should be able to sleep indoors most nights although you probably would have to rough it a lot in the beginning.

On days when you are healing from your injuries you can either perform more, craft equipment to help you adventure (if the gm allows you to find craft supplies in the woods with a survival check), try and diplomacy people into helping you out (in exchange for a payoff when you finally win big) or engage in some light larceny depending on your outlook and skills.

Heck you might even be able to bluff a party of adventurers into thinking you are a monk or something and join in on a real adventure or two.

At some point the character either dies (highly likely) or gets a lucky windfall adventuring. Also the character slowly earns xp and ammasses equipment. Such a murder hobo in training stands a small but reasonable chance of getting a full set of starting equipment and a real class inside of a few months.

Yahzi

2017-07-06, 08:32 AM

The D&D economy isn't actually quite as bad as all that (despite a few weird bits).

1 lb of wheat sells for 1 cp. Forty acres and a mule produce about 6,000 lbs of wheat a year (after accounting for seed for the next year). This means a peasant farmer makes 60 gp a year. Given a share-cropping tax of 50%, he still has 30 gp a year to live off. Just enough to put porridge on the table for a family, assuming his wife grows vegetables and chickens on the side.

This means at least 50% of the population has to be farmers. Of course in real life it was much higher, as high as 95% for the Vikings. At 75% farming population the remaining skilled craftsmen can make 90 gp a year.

The lord takes wheat from the peasants and gives it to the craftsmen, who in turn make the weapons and armor that his soldiers need.

Anyone with a class level is automatically a noble. And in the D&D world, nobles have real jobs: they kill things. Because there are so, so many things that need killing. Even the pointy-hatted academics (i.e. wizards) specialize in killing things. To do any less would be to sink under the tide of monsters.

So yes, 1st level Fighters are all the equivalent of knights. If you want to play a regular tough guy, play a 1st lvl commoner with STR and CON 16. You can probably even beat up a knight in a bar fight on a good day. But when he puts his armor on and draws his sword, you're just another chump. Which is why he gets paid a gold piece a day, and you don't.

Mars Ultor

2017-07-06, 12:25 PM

Heck you might even be able to bluff a party of adventurers into thinking you are a monk or something and join in on a real adventure or two.

At some point the character either dies (highly likely) or gets a lucky windfall adventuring. Also the character slowly earns xp and ammasses equipment. Such a murder hobo in training stands a small but reasonable chance of getting a full set of starting equipment and a real class inside of a few months.

My players just decided to buy a wagon and horse to carry their supplies and treasure, and they hired some local kid who wanted to be a fighter to drive the wagon and guard it while they're adventuring indoors. I never considered that this was actually the beginnings of the Adventurer Apprenticeship Program.

Dagroth

2017-07-06, 01:00 PM

Read the description of the War Mage class.

Now extrapolate that kind of training for most any class.

A person doesn't one day say "I'm a Druid" and automatically know how to fight while wearing Hide Armor & wielding a Sickle and automatically being able to cast some spells...

An aspiring Druid is taken in by another Druid or group of Druids and taught the basics... then they say "go out there and be a murder-hobo!" Unless, of course, you get the Apprentice Feat. Then they say "go out there and be a murder-hobo! And come back and give me money, because I trained you!"

The only class that doesn't need training is Sorcerer.

Mars Ultor

2017-07-06, 01:39 PM

Anyone with a class level is automatically a noble. And in the D&D world, nobles have real jobs: they kill things. Because there are so, so many things that need killing. Even the pointy-hatted academics (i.e. wizards) specialize in killing things. To do any less would be to sink under the tide of monsters.

So yes, 1st level Fighters are all the equivalent of knights. If you want to play a regular tough guy, play a 1st lvl commoner with STR and CON 16. You can probably even beat up a knight in a bar fight on a good day. But when he puts his armor on and draws his sword, you're just another chump. Which is why he gets paid a gold piece a day, and you don't.

This is why Fighters should have Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty as a Class Skill, and they should have some skill or ability that lets them recognize monsters. If your entire life is predicated on hitting other things and competing against other nobles, you should have some ability to determine what you're hitting, and who those other nobles are.

AOKost

2017-07-06, 05:07 PM

I've always found starting wealth to be odd as well. Unless you come from a wealthy family, or figure out some way to get wealthy by the time you're supposed to be done with whatever vocational trainings you're undergoing, you're going to be broke.

I usually start my games off with players playing whatever race they want, basically as commoners, with the clothes on their backs, a backpack (2 gp, seriously? maybe I should have them start off with Straw backpacks that cost 2 cp...), bedroll (1 sp), blanket (5 sp), flint and steel (1 gp), 3 torches (1 cp each), 1 week of trail rations (wardenmeal) (1 cp each), and a water skin (1 gp, seriously?) d10 copper, and a club, for a total cost of 4 gp, 7 silver (assuming a 7 day week). They gain any money they want/need by adventuring, even if that's by pickpocketing through the streets... assuming they have the skills for it.

This brings me to my next tidbit, is that I don't run games with 'classes' other than as archetypes of vilians, and then they are going to have random abilities they've picked up over the years. The system I run is primarily 3.PF but I also use Custom Characters that's a classless system.

Endarire

2017-07-06, 05:11 PM

Player/adventurer economy != NPC/commoner/background economy.

(!= means 'not equal.')

Ramidel

2017-07-06, 06:25 PM

I do assume that most adventurers are professionals (hell, except for Barbarians, all of them are literate!). The "average" adventurer was probably apprenticed to a senior adventurer and learned the trade from them (particularly true for Wizards); their equipment is their journeyman gift. Others (especially divine classes, but any adventurer can fit here) have a religious organization backing them up. Some come from nobility (usually second sons or really petty nobility, or the children of retired adventurers) and have their career financed by their parents - this is their inheritance for them to make a real fortune with. Barbarians are the baddest dudes in their tribe. Even a rogue almost certainly had someone train them in lockpicking and other pro-level rogue skills; they may have originally come from an Oliver Twist gang, but now they're professional cracksmen and decent swordsmen, and they've probably made at least one score.

Among the core classes, the "peasant hero" archetype without mentoring or backing of any kind makes the most sense for a Sorcerer. And a Sorcerer is special because of what he is. He won the lottery and has a manifest magical bloodline; he probably made use of his early-manifesting magic to parlay it into basic equipment and funding while developing his level 1 spells, and they can probably find a way to buy their freedom or survive escaping if they're serfs.

Other than that, a serf or landless laborer type usually doesn't have the time or the money to get into adventuring; there are stiff barriers to entry. They're either bound to the land or are dividing their time between fourteen-hour workdays and starvation, and their cash on hand (if they even use cash) hovers around zero. They don't have the money to either buy gear or to pay for the professional training most classes require, and if they do get into adventuring, they probably do it through the Horatio Alger method; the village priest sees that they have a vocation and sponsors them to an order, a nearby wizard buys them off their parents because he needs someone to dust the library, they fish the lord's daughter out of the river and are recruited as squires, or something like that.

With that said, if it's your PC, you can decide what strange circumstances led to them becoming an adventurer and getting their starting wealth.