Is there a Rogue/Wizard hybrid class somewhere in PF?

[Elkad]

Not familiar with the myriad PF classes at all.

Is there a Rogue/Wizard hybrid class? Sneak attack, trapfinding, and 6th level spell progression, preferably Int-based.

I found martial wizard in Magus, and martial cleric in Warpriest.

[Florian]

Here you go: http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Eldritch%2 0Scoundrel

[Elkad]

Outstanding.
Thanks!

[ngilop]

well it has everything you asked for minus sneak attack, But there is the Archaeologist Bard. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/archaeologist/)


There is also the Arcane Trickster prestige class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-trickster/)


and since you are not caring about getting 9th level spells you can enter as a 3rd wizard/witch and a 3rd rogue go 10 levels in Arcane Trickster and POW have 13th level wizard/witch casting now you get 7th level spells and can finish the rest of the way into rogue if ya want.

this way you get 7th level spells at 16th instead of 6th level spells if you chose other options

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Here you go: http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Eldritch%2 0Scoundrel
For best results, I'd suggest being an Unchained Rogue with the above archetype, taking Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 3rd level and jumping into the Arcane Trickster prestige class at 5th level.

You get full Sneak Attack (albeit delayed by one level), casting progressed by AT, Debilitating Injury to attach more debuffs to your ranged spells, and some nifty magical thief stuff!

Alternatively, if you want something a little different, both the Vivisectionist Alchemist and the Investigator get Alchemy (which is arcane magic in a bottle) and some roguish abilities, and the Archaeologist Bard is a Bard playing at being a Rogue.

[Elkad]

Arcane Trickster is good.

Bard, even without performances, I specifically don't want*. I want to be a cunning sneak, not a loudmouth stuck in the abysmal party face role. Unless there is a PF way to get Int-based casting on a bard and dump Cha? Even then, spontaneous casting annoys me endlessly.

The rules don't appear to be clear on sticking regular Rogue Archetypes on an Unchained Rogue? Unchained only lists a few.

And depending on the power level of the others, Arcane Scoundrel is still a full Tier1 Wizard, which might be inappropriate for the game. I can self-nerf of course.


*Though somewhere in the back of my mind for some other game is a Paladin of Freedom/Bard who wants to liberate everyone from the clutches of the government. He takes Perform(Oratory) and just does the John Galt speech endlessly. It's long enough he'd never have to repeat himself for a whole campaign. Anyone who impinges on the free will of someone else (especially via magical compulsion or charm) is EVIL. If you are going to be an annoying bard, go big!

[Treblain]

There's also the Questioner investigator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo-investigator-archetypes/questioner-investigator-archetype/), which gets bard casting but is very much INT-based. It does stealth and trapfinding but doesn't get sneak attack.

The Eldritch Scoundrel seems to be exactly what you're looking for, though getting 1-6th level spells from the wizard list is disappointing compared to classes with their own lists that get spells that would be higher level on 1-9 caster spell lists. The wizard list is strong enough that it isn't that much of a problem.

[Ellrin]

Not familiar with the myriad PF classes at all.

Is there a Rogue/Wizard hybrid class? Sneak attack, trapfinding, and 6th level spell progression, preferably Int-based.

I found martial wizard in Magus, and martial cleric in Warpriest.

There's always a wizard VMC rogue. Give up five feats to get trapfinding, evasion, uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge, and +4d6 sneak attack--though admittedly you're still on a wizard's half BAB progression.

The main advantage of wizard VMC rogue is being able to enter Arcane Trickster at 8th level without losing any wizard casting (assuming you can retrain your 5th level feat to accomplished sneak attacker).

[Serafina]

If you go with Eldritch Scoundrel, you might also be interested in the following trick:
- take the Ki Pool Talent (which isn't on the super-official list of talents for the Unchained Rogue, but almost every GM should allow it)
- take Magus Variant Multiclass, and take Ki Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo-magus-arcana/ki-arcana-ex/).
- Take the Forgotten Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja/ninja-tricks/paizo-ninja-tricks/forgotten-trick/) Ninja Talent
- get a Ring of Ki Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-ki-mastery/), and a bunch of Pearls of Power I (they're only 1000 gp each)

Now you can spontaneously use every Ninja Trick there is.
You have a pretty large Ki Pool to do that with (1/2 level - 1 + Int + Wis) - but better yet, you can just use 1st-level spell slots instead too. And those are purchaseable at 1000 gp a piece, meaning that you can expand that by a lot at later levels.
But do you spontaneously need to move at full speed while in stealth? Need to spontaneously cast Disguise Self? Succeed at an acrobatics check? Hide some weapons? Do some unnoticed Sabotage? A bunch of other things?
It's all just 1 swift action (and some ki) away. And you can use that Ki Pool to enhance your weapon, movement or stealth too - oh, and you get spell strike out of the multiclass as well, which can both allow for some nasty alpha strikes.

Of course, the whole thing is pretty feat- and talent-intensive, so you can't use a feat-heavy build and will want a race whose FCB grants you extra talents.

[theasl]

The rules don't appear to be clear on sticking regular Rogue Archetypes on an Unchained Rogue? Unchained only lists a few.

Almost all (if not all) vanilla rogue archetypes should work with unchained. The only changed thing (as opposed to added), Danger Sense, specifically says:

This ability counts as trap sense for the purpose of any feat or class prerequisite, and can be replaced by any archetype class feature that replaces trap sense.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Arcane Trickster is good.

Bard, even without performances, I specifically don't want*. I want to be a cunning sneak, not a loudmouth stuck in the abysmal party face role. Unless there is a PF way to get Int-based casting on a bard and dump Cha? Even then, spontaneous casting annoys me endlessly.

The rules don't appear to be clear on sticking regular Rogue Archetypes on an Unchained Rogue? Unchained only lists a few.

And depending on the power level of the others, Arcane Scoundrel is still a full Tier1 Wizard, which might be inappropriate for the game. I can self-nerf of course.

The rules say you can apply Rogue archetypes to the UnRogue freely, and Danger Sense counts as Trap Sense for replacement.

I would point out regarding Arcane Scoundrel that if you're concerned about power, Eldritch Scoundrel only gets up to 6th level casting iirc, so if you enter without Wizard levels you'll never exceed that. Besides, AT encourages blasting and stealth, which are hardly God Wizard tactics.

[Elkad]

DM has squashed unrogue. And variant multiclassing. And anything non-Paizo. And anything non-human.
15pt buy, 3 Traits. Campaign rules mean dying is far less of a problem than normal, so I'm OK ditching Con somewhat.

At first glance I saw "gets spells as a wizard", said "Woohoo!" and stopped reading. Which meant I missed the "spells per day as a magus" part at the end :(

Anyway, I still like the idea. But being completely new to PF, I've now invested hours just trying to decide what traits to take, much less what rogue/ninja tricks. Or feats.

[theasl]

DM has squashed unrogue. And variant multiclassing. And anything non-Paizo. And anything non-human.
3 Traits.

At first glance I saw "gets spells as a wizard", said "Woohoo!" and stopped reading. Which meant I missed the "spells per day as a magus" part at the end :(

Anyway, I still like the idea. But being completely new to PF, I've now invested hours just trying to decide what traits to take, much less what rogue/ninja tricks.

What was their reason for not allowing unchained rogue? It's a reasonably balanced upgrade to an originally horrible class. :smallannoyed:

[Elkad]

What was their reason for not allowing unchained rogue? It's a reasonably balanced upgrade to an originally horrible class. :smallannoyed:

I didn't ask actually. I don't know enough about PF to make a coherent argument, and I'm new to the group, so I don't want to rock the boat too much.

[Dagroth]

15 point buy? Might as well take the Elite Array out of the Monster Manual.

No wait, that would be better, wouldn't it?

[theasl]

15 point buy? Might as well take the Elite Array out of the Monster Manual.

No wait, that would be better, wouldn't it?

They're actually the same.

@Elkad - I would definitely suggest Questioner (see Treblain's post), but unfortunately you said you disliked spontaneous casting...so I dunno. If you're focusing more on the spellcasting part than the roguey combat part then vanilla rogue should be okay.

[Elkad]

They're actually the same.

@Elkad - I would definitely suggest Questioner (see Treblain's post), but unfortunately you said you disliked spontaneous casting...so I dunno. If you're focusing more on the spellcasting part than the roguey combat part then vanilla rogue should be okay.

Yeah, it's starting to feel that way. Finesse, Focus, and Grace is a lot of feats to open with. (or Expertise and Dervish).

I'm considering just basically giving up on the Rogue side and going Wiz3/R1, the sneak attack feat, and going into Arcane Trickster.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (with Accomplished Sneak Attacker) into Arcane Trickster is still somewhat better imo, just worse than Unchained Rogue (which was definitely meant by Paizo as a straight upgrade).

[Ellrin]

DM has squashed unrogue. And variant multiclassing. And anything non-Paizo. And anything non-human.
15pt buy, 3 Traits. Campaign rules mean dying is far less of a problem than normal, so I'm OK ditching Con somewhat.

At first glance I saw "gets spells as a wizard", said "Woohoo!" and stopped reading. Which meant I missed the "spells per day as a magus" part at the end :(

Anyway, I still like the idea. But being completely new to PF, I've now invested hours just trying to decide what traits to take, much less what rogue/ninja tricks. Or feats.

Is your DM also new to PF? I can understand limiting it that much if you're trying to keep from being overwhelmed, but losing access to UC rogue is gonna be rough for someone trying to play a rogue.

I'll go ahead and throw my voice in behind the investigator or vivisectionist alcemist idea, in that case, if you don't mind giving up the name of your class. Investigator in particular is basically just better at being a rogue-like skillmonkey than an actual rogue, has sixth level magical alchemy (which is basically prepared Int-based spellcasting with a flavor twist), and with magical self buffs and the always-on attack/damage boosts, can pretty easily outdamage all but the most optimized rogue builds.

Vivisectionist alchemists aren't so skilled, but gets the same magical alchemy, sneak attack as a rogue, and is more capable of self-buffing (through their mutagen as well as their alchemy) than the investigator. You don't get trapfinding, but there's a trait (the aptly named Trap Finder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder/)) that allows you to disarm magical traps.

[Florian]

@Elkad:

Don´t fret, that´s all manageable.

Stick with Rogue, use the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype, no biggie there, even with "just" the Magus progression. Magic is only there to enhance your survival.

DEX is your main stat and you want to go into TWF and start the Twin Fang Style feat chain, possibly rounded out with Betrayer.
Rogue Talents, you´ll want to start with Ki Pool and go over to Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick (and later: Hidden Blade).
Spells are a different topic, but Bladed Dash, Mirror Image and Greater Invisibility are a good start.

[Elkad]

I know absolutely nothing about alchemist, but having just taken a peek, it looks a lot like self spells only.

What I wanted as a concept was a bit of the BFC of a Wizard, plus the non-combat spell utility, on a sneaky chassis. Throw a fog or haste or something, and then go poke stuff in the back. But not the same thing every time. I want the flexibility of a book, so when we suddenly need 5 water breathing spells one day, or 3 teleports, I can oblige the party.

So buffing myself until I do eleventyD6 per backstab with a bunch of potions/spells isn't really the goal. But standing there whiffing every round, or doing 2d6+nothing, isn't really it either.

[Elkad]

DEX is your main stat and you want to go into TWF and start the Twin Fang Style feat chain, possibly rounded out with Betrayer.
Rogue Talents, you´ll want to start with Ki Pool and go over to Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick (and later: Hidden Blade).
Spells are a different topic, but Bladed Dash, Mirror Image and Greater Invisibility are a good start.

Just skip dex-to-damage and rely on Sneak dice?
Where do I find Twin Fang? pfsrd search engine is failing.
Ki Pool gets me a single Ki point. Worth using a talent on when I can do the same with spell slots?


And on the subject of spell selection, is there a good search tool for PF somewhere? So I can find every 1st level wizard spell with a Swift Action cast time, or every spell with a 1hr/level duration, or with a Fort save, or no Somatic component?

[Florian]

Just skip dex-to-damage and rely on Sneak dice?
Where do I find Twin Fang? pfsrd search engine is failing.
Ki Pool gets me a single Ki point. Worth using a talent on when I can do the same with spell slots?

And on the subject of spell selection, is there a good search tool for PF somewhere? So I can find every 1st level wizard spell with a Swift Action cast time, or every spell with a 1hr/level duration, or with a Fort save, or no Somatic component?

Use this site: http://www.archivesofnethys.com/Default.aspx

Unless you do an extreme build, SA will always top static damage when using TWF. As for the Ki Pool, there´re fairly cheap items that upgrade and/or store Ki points, being a better investment that hoarding Pearls of Power latter on (that´s a hint). Twin Fang is from Villain Codex, p. 105. It might not be up on the major sites yet.

[Elkad]

Use this site: http://www.archivesofnethys.com/Default.aspx

Unless you do an extreme build, SA will always top static damage when using TWF. As for the Ki Pool, there´re fairly cheap items that upgrade and/or store Ki points, being a better investment that hoarding Pearls of Power latter on (that´s a hint). Twin Fang is from Villain Codex, p. 105. It might not be up on the major sites yet.


Thanks, but nethys doesn't appear to help any. A search for Immediate Action doesn't find feather fall. I looked at a list of results for "swift action", but none of the spells I checked were actually swift either.

[theasl]

I use this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/tools/advanced-spell-search/), not sure how complete it is but it should have most of them.

[Hackulator]

If you're looking for a Trickster archetype caster, check out the Mesmerist. It's not really a rogue hybrid mechanically, but its a fun class that can be the supreme sneak.